A simple question about Israel/Palestine

[Eviscerator]

The Israeli economy has a wonderful and highly inventive tech sector. Their electronic security companies produce many new patents every year that are purchased and utilized by people around the world, including in the US. Israel's citizens have security of property and have almost no risk of arbitrary confiscation by their government, which means they are an excellent investment opportunity.

What about the Palestinians? Heh.

Now before you go off about how it's impossible for the Palestinians to thrive given the imposition of Israel, let me ask you a question.

Do you know how many patents the patent office in Saudi Arabia has registered in the past six years?

None.

It seems entirely reasonable to infer that if the entire region that consists of Israel and the PA were to be divided into two contiguous countries tomorrow that a decade down the road the Palestinian side would be just as a big a refuse-hole as the PA is today.

Again, what's the point in even affording the Palestinians a "point of view". I don't see that they've earned it.

[mickey]

The Israeli economy has a wonderful and highly inventive tech sector. Their electronic security companies produce many new patents every year that are purchased and utilized by people around the world, including in the US. Israel's citizens have security of property and have almost no risk of arbitrary confiscation by their government, which means they are an excellent investment opportunity.

What about the Palestinians? Heh.

Now before you go off about how it's impossible for the Palestinians to thrive given the imposition of Israel, let me ask you a question.

Do you know how many patents the patent office in Saudi Arabia has registered in the past six years?

None.

It seems entirely reasonable to infer that if the entire region that consists of Israel and the PA were to be divided into two contiguous countries tomorrow that a decade down the road the Palestinian side would be just as a big a refuse-hole as the PA is today.

Again, what's the point in even affording the Palestinians a "point of view". I don't see that they've earned it.Is scientific progress the only measure of worthiness?

[Eviscerator]

Is scientific progress the only measure of worthiness?

Doesn't directly address my point but it's a good question. I am not measuring some metaphysical notion of "worth". I simply want to know why I should value them. I take the pagan worldview of valuing people by what they do. Ergo, if they do nothing then they are nothing.

But on another note, I would not say that all cultures making scientific advancements are worth my respect but that some sort of ability to be creative and find new things is mandatory to garner respect. Patents aren't necessarily "science", strictly speaking.

Also, Palestinian culture betrays itself by valuing, through using, scientific advancements generated in other cultures. It leaches off other people's that provide the environment in which scientific advancements are made.

[dewey189]

But on another note, I would not say that all cultures making scientific advancements are worth my respect but that some sort of ability to be creative and find new things is mandatory to garner respect. Patents aren't necessarily "science", strictly speaking. Patents are more technological than scientific. Also, Palestinian culture betrays itself by valuing, through using, scientific advancements generated in other cultures. It leaches off other people's that provide the environment in which scientific advancements are made.A patent is worthless if it's not taken to market and many of our patented ideas languished in corporate labs until the Japanese took the ideas, developed products, took them to market and succeeded. Do you have disdain for the Japanese as well?

[mickey]

Doesn't directly address my point but it's a good question. I am not measuring some metaphysical notion of "worth". I simply want to know why I should value them. I take the pagan worldview of valuing people by what they do. Ergo, if they do nothing then they are nothing.

But on another note, I would not say that all cultures making scientific advancements are worth my respect but that some sort of ability to be creative and find new things is mandatory to garner respect. Patents aren't necessarily "science", strictly speaking.

Also, Palestinian culture betrays itself by valuing, through using, scientific advancements generated in other cultures. It leaches off other people's that provide the environment in which scientific advancements are made.I have never patented anything, nor could I build my own house, create or recreate a scientic advancement on my own. I guess I'm no better than a Bedouin.

[Eviscerator]

Patents are more technological than scientific. A patent is worthless if it's not taken to market and many of our patented ideas languished in corporate labs until the Japanese took the ideas, developed products, took them to market and succeeded. Do you have disdain for the Japanese as well?

Patents are a good, measurable, objective method of gauging the ability of a culture to thrive and provide a fertile environment for its members. The Japanese have produced plenty of patents.

I'm sure we could come up with other quantifiable measures.

[Neurobürger]

The Israeli economy has a wonderful and highly inventive tech sector. Their electronic security companies produce many new patents every year that are purchased and utilized by people around the world, including in the US. Israel's citizens have security of property and have almost no risk of arbitrary confiscation by their government, which means they are an excellent investment opportunity.

What about the Palestinians? Heh.

Now before you go off about how it's impossible for the Palestinians to thrive given the imposition of Israel, let me ask you a question.

Do you know how many patents the patent office in Saudi Arabia has registered in the past six years?

None.

It seems entirely reasonable to infer that if the entire region that consists of Israel and the PA were to be divided into two contiguous countries tomorrow that a decade down the road the Palestinian side would be just as a big a refuse-hole as the PA is today.

Again, what's the point in even affording the Palestinians a "point of view". I don't see that they've earned it.


"eviscerator" seems to labor under the misapprehension that patents and technological/scientific research is still in the early days of a tesla or an edison, working more or less in solitude.

nothing could be further from the reality of today, however.

now-a-days, massive amounts of capital finance large research and development centers, and only a small fraction of the total progress in really revolutionary or ground-breaking discoveries have been made by the solitary "inventor". most of our progress is coming from the combination of efforts that are working under the direction of capital.

and therein lies the "big secret" of israel vs. palestine. israel is heavily capitalized. there is a great deal of foreign investment in israel (http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/MFA/Israel+beyond+politics/Israel+economy+shows+growth+in+2004+-+Feb+2005.htm) as well, particularly in the field of technology:




Foreign investment increased dramatically in the 1990s with the growth of the high-tech industry. In 1992, total foreign investment in Israel was $537 million; in 2004, that figure was $5.3 billion. Israel also became a magnet for venture capital to invest in Israeli start-up companies.





palestinians are doing about as well as could be expected of a People who were driven from their lands and expropriated of their wealth.

[Mykel]

Eviscerated,

You sound an awful lot like the European Christians who invaded MY Native American ancestors' land, tortured us, raped us, murdered us, pushed us onto barren lands, took our children from us, belittled and killed and erased from our memories our gay and lesbian members, marched our sick and elderly to their deaths, forced religion on us, deliberately infected us with disease and, yes, stole our land from us.

The difference, though, you smug, self-righteous, conniving, treasonous, piece of Zionist shit, is that at LEAST the descendants of those European Christians give us our equal rights and the ability to move and speak freely.

Indeed, even in the family of your despicably stupid co-hort, George W. Bush, there is a descendant of my people---one George Prescott Bush---who stands a good chance of being president one day.

Fat chance that Israel, on the other hand, would EVER elect someone of Palestinian and/or Muslim descent president. You WANT them to be primitive!

ThereIN lies the rub.

And it's precisely why I look forward to the day when Americans of all colors and faiths and sexual orientations and classes finally demand that Israel and her sitting ducks for citizens stop stealing our tax dollars so they can "reclaim" a dead, worthless piece of dirt.

You want your Israel?

Do it on your OWN damned dime!

[donprocto]

They are a dirty, backwards, stupid, pigheaded people, good for little more than servitude.

Kinda like what we're producing here in the US.

[Eviscerator]

"eviscerator" seems to labor under the misapprehension that patents and technological/scientific research is still in the early days of a tesla or an edison, working more or less in solitude.

nothing could be further from the reality of today, however.

now-a-days, massive amounts of capital finance large research and development centers, and only a small fraction of the total progress in really revolutionary or ground-breaking discoveries have been made by the solitary "inventor". most of our progress is coming from the combination of efforts that are working under the direction of capital.

and therein lies the "big secret" of israel vs. palestine. israel is heavily capitalized. there is a great deal of . . . palestinians are doing about as well as could be expected of a People who were driven from their lands and expropriated of their wealth.

Apparently, someone didn't bother to pay attention to my points.

A) Other countries with arab cultures, plenty of money and no direct interaction with Israel have the same lack of any technological innovation. If it were not for massive oil reserves Saudi Arabia would have the same little sh*thole society that the Palestinians have.

B) And why do you suppose that capital goes to Israel? Secure property rights, of course, dumbass. Expropriation = Capital Flight.

C) Nowhere in my post is there even a hint of the misconception of research that you incorrectly attribute to me. In fact, I clearly referred to the social and institutional environment within which research takes place.

Try again, jackass.

[Mykel]

donprocto,

Quit projecting.

We all know it is YOU who is dirty, backwards, stupid, pigheaded and good for little more than servitude.

Now get on your knees, boy, and suck my dick!

[Sam Ayyam]

Yo, Eva: Palestinians are human beings.

Gotta problem with that?

[Dingo]

Who says a patented item makes the world a better place? No doubt there were a lot of patents that led up to the A bomb. Nazi Germany I'm sure was producing patented items right and left. I'd rather live in a world where the Hottentots could live their Hottentot life, even if they never patented anything. Actually people can be very inventive without having produced a patented item. Anybody have a patent on the first bow and arrow? Patents are simply a legalistic money power culture thing. They say nothing particularly about a culture's inventiveness in human terms.

[Eviscerator]

Yo, Eva: Palestinians are human beings.

Gotta problem with that?

Palestinians are, indeed, of the homo sapien sapiens species just like everyone posting here. But that is off-topic. We're talking about why we would want to listen to the "viewpoint" of a hideous degenerate society that produces nothing and that is unlikely to change given the state of similar societies in the region.

News flash. Ethnic Palestinians live all over the world. I'm not talking about them, though, but about the specific sh*thole society that resides in Israel, Jordan and the PA. This has nothing to do with race or ethnicity and everything to do with dysfunctional and reprobate cultural norms. Any specific individual living in the PA is quite possibly a decent and engaging individual. However, the society offers nothing for me to have any interest in their plight.

I see no evidence that a Palestinian society with an autonomous and contiguous state will provide the Palestinian people with an environment any more conducive for thriving than they have presently. And, in fact, I think the evidence is to the contrary.

[Dingo]

Mykel. And it's precisely why I look forward to the day when Americans of all colors and faiths and sexual orientations and classes finally demand that Israel and her sitting ducks for citizens stop stealing our tax dollars so they can "reclaim" a dead, worthless piece of dirt.


You want to end the Israeli subsidy Mykel? Talk to Jerry Falwell, talk to Pat Robertson, talk to the 10s of millions of premillenial dispensationalists Christians who see the return of the Jewish state as the necessary prelude to the rapture.

Oh sorry man. They're not Jewish. They're not Israelis. I forgot.

[Eviscerator]

Who says a patented item makes the world a better place? No doubt there were a lot of patents that led up to the A bomb. Nazi Germany I'm sure was producing patented items right and left. I'd rather live in a world where the Hottentots could live their Hottentot life, even if they never patented anything. Actually people can be very inventive without having produced a patented item. Anybody have a patent on the first bow and arrow? Patents are simply a legalistic money power culture thing. They say nothing particularly about a culture's inventiveness in human terms.

Yes, patents by themselves are not dispositively indicative of a "great" society. Patents are a legal instrument to allow people to benefit from their innovation and creativity, which greatly increases innovation in society. Your "money power culture thing" is vague but seems to imply that this legal instrument is about oppression. Nothing could be further from the truth. Patents are merely a logical extension of a robust legal regime with robust property protections. Such legal institutions are a public good and benefit everyone.

[Sam Ayyam]

Palestinians are, indeed, of the homo sapien sapiens species just like everyone posting here. But that is off-topic. We're talking about why we would want to listen to the "viewpoint" of a hideous degenerate society that produces nothing and that is unlikely to change given the state of similar societies in the region.

News flash. Ethnic Palestinians live all over the world. I'm not talking about them, though, but about the specific sh*thole society that resides in Israel, Jordan and the PA. This has nothing to do with race or ethnicity and everything to do with dysfunctional and reprobate cultural norms. Any specific individual living in the PA is quite possibly a decent and engaging individual. However, the society offers nothing for me to have any interest in their plight.

I see no evidence that a Palestinian society with an autonomous and contiguous state will provide the Palestinian people with an environment any more conducive for thriving than they have presently. And, in fact, I think the evidence is to the contrary.Ah! So the Palestinians have no right to exist, do they?

Some would say the same about Israel.

Would you be one of they?

How's that for staying on point?

[Dingo]

Palestinians are, indeed, of the homo sapien sapiens species just like everyone posting here. But that is off-topic. We're talking about why we would want to listen to the "viewpoint" of a hideous degenerate society that produces nothing and that is unlikely to change given the state of similar societies in the region.

News flash. Ethnic Palestinians live all over the world. I'm not talking about them, though, but about the specific sh*thole society that resides in Israel, Jordan and the PA. This has nothing to do with race or ethnicity and everything to do with dysfunctional and reprobate cultural norms. Any specific individual living in the PA is quite possibly a decent and engaging individual. However, the society offers nothing for me to have any interest in their plight.

I see no evidence that a Palestinian society with an autonomous and contiguous state will provide the Palestinian people with an environment any more conducive for thriving than they have presently. And, in fact, I think the evidence is to the contrary.

Man you're disgusting. What is your historical opinion of the technologically "advanced" Third Reich?

[Eviscerator]

Man you're disgusting. What is your historical opinion of the technologically "advanced" Third Reich?

Simple. They were hideously irrational. German Jews were some of the best scientific and most productive minds of Europe.

Hitler painted a picture of European Jews that was 180 degrees opposite of what their contributions to European society actually consisted of. It was a complete inversion of the facts.

However, if what Hitler had said had been true the Holocaust would have been justified. But it was true so it was not justified.

[Mykel]

You want to end the Israeli subsidy Mykel? Talk to Jerry Falwell, talk to Pat Robertson, talk to the 10s of millions of premillenial dispensationalists Christians who see the return of the Jewish state as the necessary prelude to the rapture.

Oh sorry man. They're not Jewish. They're not Israelis. I forgot.
Dingo, shaddap.

We're talking about why we would want to lithen to the "viewpoint" of a hideouth degenerate thothiety
Hideous?

Degenerate?

Hm.

One guess, everyone: is Eviscerate a homophobe, too?

[Dingo]

However, if what Hitler had said had been true the Holocaust would have been justified. But it was (not) true so it was not justified.
So you believe one group of people have a right to wipe out another group of people given the appropriate circumstances. Would you say the European colonialists were justified in their genocide against many Indian tribes, folks who didn't know a thing about patents?

[Eviscerator]

Ah! So the Palestinians have no right to exist, do they?

Some would say the same about Israel.

Would you be one of they?

How's that for staying on point?

You miss the point. It's not about right. "Right" is a concept relevant to an environment where you have a stable, agreed upon notion of proper actions. Nothing of the sort exists in the situation where we're talking about. All that counts is who is able to marshall the most effective forces. And why should I lend my strength for a people incapable of helping themselves, much less doing anything for others, as opposed to a people that is productive?

BTW, I do favor a complete two-state solution. And when the Palestinians continue attacking Israeli civilians from the vantage of a proper state then the Israelis will have just cause to obliterate them.

[Eviscerator]

So you believe one group of people have a right to wipe out another group of people given the appropriate circumstances. Would you say the European colonialists were justified in their genocide against many Indian tribes, folks who didn't know a thing about patents?

"Right" is a notion only applicable to situations where you have a stable, clearly settle set of legal and cultural norms.

[Eviscerator]

Dingo, shaddap.


Hideous?

Degenerate?

Hm.

One guess, everyone: is Eviscerate a homophobe, too?

No. Hideous and degenerate as in not providing an environment wherein people thrive and prosper.

[Hunter Rose]

"Eviscerator" is aptly so.

This could be very fun if he stays academic, clinical.
We'll play shoesies some time soon.
Find out what sneakers we really wear.

Welcome to DBS.

[Dingo]

"Right" is a notion only applicable to situations where you have a stable, clearly settle set of legal and cultural norms.
Sorry A-hole, you already stepped outside that bit of linguistic obfuscation. Remember?
However, if what Hitler had said had been true the Holocaust would have been justified.
Nothing here about a clearly settled set of legal and cultural norms. So lets try again with a little alteration of the question..

So you believe one group of people have a right to wipe out another group of people given the appropriate circumstances? Would you say the European colonialists were justified in their genocide against many Indian tribes since they could not be considered advanced or productive in European terms?

[Eviscerator]

Sorry A-hole, you already stepped outside that bit of linguistic obfuscation. Remember?

Nothing here about a clearly settled set of legal and cultural norms. So lets try again with a little alternation of the question..

So you believe one group of people have a right to wipe out another group of people given the appropriate circumstances? Would you say the European colonialists were justified in their genocide against many Indian tribes since they could not be considered advanced or productive in European terms?

Of course, there were settled rules and norms in Europe that had existed for centuries. Europe by 1923 had a very long, well-established set of social norms.

Hitler violated those norms. European Jews by the fact that they were law-abiding, productive members of Hitler's own society had every right to expect the protections afforded to Europeans for centuries.

It's that simple. Nothing more.

[Dingo]

I can see perfectly well why you're copping. You support genocide against certain folks and I imagine if you post here for a while that will become very clear.

[Eviscerator]

I can see perfectly well why you're copping. You support genocide against certain folks and I imagine if you post here for a while that will become very clear.

Theoretically, I can imagine a society that might behave in a manner as to deserve complete eradication. Yes.

I'm quite certain such groups have existed in the past as can be inferred from evidence about raiding cultures that derived their entire livelihood from theft and who killed for sport. Whether such a group exists today is probably unanswerable at this moment.

There is a time to kill.

[Sam Ayyam]

You miss the point. It's not about right. "Right" is a concept relevant to an environment where you have a stable, agreed upon notion of proper actions. Nothing of the sort exists in the situation where we're talking about. All that counts is who is able to marshall the most effective forces. And why should I lend my strength for a people incapable of helping themselves, much less doing anything for others, as opposed to a people that is productive?

BTW, I do favor a complete two-state solution. And when the Palestinians continue attacking Israeli civilians from the vantage of a proper state then the Israelis will have just cause to obliterate them.Yet another idiot who never bothered to read the Declaration of Independence.

Nice shootin', Tex!

"Right" is "right." Are you so blind that you cannot see that? We Americans have murdered millions, all for a "good cause." Rights are rights, smartass. If they aren't deserved, then die by your own hand.

You proffer such delightful terms as "proper actions"

Why should you demand "effective forces?" Hitler managed that. Are you a nazi, too?

Rights are inherent to the human condition. I cannot understand why this is so difficult a concept for you.

Google "enlightenment."

[Eviscerator]

Yet another idiot who never bothered to read the Declaration of Independence.

Nice shootin', Tex!

"Right" is "right." Are you so blind that you cannot see that? We Americans have murdered millions, all for a "good cause." Rights are rights, smartass. If they aren't deserved, then die by your own hand.

You proffer such delightful terms as "proper actions"

Why should you demand "effective forces?" Hitler managed that. Are you a nazi, too?

Rights are inherent to the human condition. I cannot understand why this is so difficult a concept for you.

Google "enlightenment."


The enlightenment's dead. Google "postmodernism".

[Sam Ayyam]

The enlightenment's dead. Google "postmodernism".And so you admit to being a liberal.

Props!

The Enlightenment is the foundation of our Republic.

You have a problem with that, too?

[dewey189]

Patents are a good, measurable, objective method of gauging the ability of a culture to thrive and provide a fertile environment for its members. The Japanese have produced plenty of patents. I'm sure we could come up with other quantifiable measures.You'd better come up with something better, cuz basing your arguement on the patent system alone doesn't hold water. Do you consider a society "advanced" when life-saving, patented products don't reach the market because it would threaten the sales of an existing product line? Are you aware that patented technologies already exist to replace our dependency on oil, but they won't be introduced as long as money can be made off the oil market? I can't help but wonder if you consider greed a sign of high culture, but I suspect your knowledge of patents and their impact on markets is rather slim.

[Eviscerator]

You'd better come up with something better, cuz basing your arguement on the patent system alone doesn't hold water. Do you consider a society "advanced" when life-saving, patented products don't reach the market because it would threaten the sales of an existing product line?

What does thei possibly mean? At best, it's mindless ranting. At worst, it's tinfoil hat paranoia. I suspect the latter. Do you believe in a worldwide Jewish Conspiracy, too? Many lifesaving products do not generate much sales because their target consumers do not command the economic resources needed to benefit potential producers.

Are you aware that patented technologies already exist to replace our dependency on oil, but they won't be introduced as long as money can be made off the oil market? I can't help but wonder if you consider greed a sign of high culture, but I suspect your knowledge of patents and their impact on markets is rather slim.

Yep, as I suspected. Tinfoil hat lunacy. Are you aware that ethanol in the US, which is produced and sold, is now more expensive than gas? Sorry, but there simply is no grand conspiracy to keep people in gas-driven cars.

[Eviscerator]

And so you admit to being a liberal.

Props!

I'm an epistemelogical pragmatist. But, yes, I'd generally call myself a classical liberal, of sorts.

The Enlightenment is the foundation of our Republic.

You have a problem with that, too?

And the enlightenment is predicated on the idea that human beings are generally interested in progressing toward a better world, a great portion of which is measured by material progress and self-sufficiency.

in the past couple centuries it's become clear that even when presented with opportunities a large portion of the human race is more than willing to wallow in its own filth and vomit.

[dewey189]

What does thei possibly mean? At best, it's mindless ranting. At worst, it's tinfoil hat paranoia. I suspect the latter. Do you believe in a worldwide Jewish Conspiracy, too? Many lifesaving products do not generate much sales because their target consumers do not command the economic resources needed to benefit potential producers.Honey you know nothing about patent history in the US, and you don't know squat about modern corporate product mangament. If you did, you'd have an inkling of the delicate balance corporations must maintain in order to maximize profit on older product lines v. introducing market disrupting technoloiges. You're way over your head here, son. Yep, as I suspected. Tinfoil hat lunacy. Are you aware that ethanol in the US, which is produced and sold, is now more expensive than gas? Sorry, but there simply is no grand conspiracy to keep people in gas-driven cars.I never said there was a conspiracy you idiot. Corporations have a vested interest in keeping older product lines and technologies afloat as long as money can be made off of them. Dude...that's capitalism and I'm a business-owning capitalist. I don't know what the hell you are! LOL!

[dewey189]

I'm an epistemelogical pragmatist. But, yes, I'd generally call myself a classical liberal, of sorts.If I had to wager, I'd say it's a safe bet that you're a college student who's recently taken a philosophy class.

[donni]

"Right" is a notion only applicable to situations where you have a stable, clearly settle set of legal and cultural norms.


BULLSHIT!

[whitemajikman]

I see no evidence that a Palestinian society with an autonomous and contiguous state will provide the Palestinian people with an environment any more conducive for thriving than they have presently. And, in fact, I think the evidence is to the contrary.

PRESENT YOUR EVIDENCE........

WMM

[Neurobürger]

Apparently, someone didn't bother to pay attention to my points.




on the contrary, "jackass", i [/b]did[/b] pay attention to your "points" (such as they are)

i was, however, trying to give you the 'benefit of the doubt'

unfortunately, you showed your true colors with your comments regarding the "justification" of hitler's genocidal policies towards european jewry, when you said that it would have been 'justified' if what he'd said was true.

you've basically presented in your opening thesis, what can best be called the "master race gambit"

you set up a straw-man ('patents') in order to prove a pre-determined thesis - ie, the "inferior" cultural status of palestinians, as justification for their oppression and expropriation by zionist imperialism.





A) Other countries with arab cultures, plenty of money and no direct interaction with Israel have the same lack of any technological innovation. If it were not for massive oil reserves Saudi Arabia would have the same little sh*thole society that the Palestinians have.



first of all, jackass

your statment that there were "no patents filed in saudia arabia" is utterly false

it's best if you don't try to lie around here. one of us will probably catch you out and you will lose what little credibility you came with.

[quote]
[





A) Other countries with arab cultures, plenty of money and no direct interaction with Israel have the same lack of any technological innovation. If it were not for massive oil reserves Saudi Arabia would have the same little sh*thole society that the Palestinians have.



first of all, jackass

your statment that there were no patents filed by saudia arabians is utterly false

it's best if you don't try to lie around here. one of us will probably catch you out and you will lose what little credibility you came with.

in fact, saudi citizens have registered at least 28 invididual patents (filed under an individual's name) and at least 34 patents registered by corporations, in this country.

http://www.uspto.gov/go/taf/asgstc/sax_stc.htm

patents are most often registered in the largest countries/markets, and it is not unusual for the inventors/corporations in question to neglect filing patents in smaller markets.







B) And why do you suppose that capital goes to Israel? Secure property rights, of course, dumbass. Expropriation = Capital Flight.


capital comes to israel because there is a surplus in the 'developed' countries and this surplus seeks an outlet wherever it can find it. it does generally require stability, but capitalists will invest in the most unstable regions, if the potential for profit is high enough.

capitalists prefer to invest in places where their governments exert some influence and control, and this is clearly the case with israel, especially in regards to US capital, which is backed up and protected by heavy subsidies from the US government towards israel's military and police apparatus.





C) Nowhere in my post is there even a hint of the misconception of research that you incorrectly attribute to me. In fact, I clearly referred to the social and institutional environment within which research takes place.


Try again, jackass.

you attempt to posit the idea that because palestinians don't have an office of patent registry, they are somehow "inferior" and therefore not deserving of the right of a national identity .

you've basically taken the 19th century concept of "the white man's burden" and updated it for the 21st century, by advancing the claim that "inferior peoples" should have no rights that the culturally superior peoples are bound to respect.



and since we're on the subject, perhaps you should start balancing your chequebook with roman numerals (or whatever you like), but certainly you should avoid using arabic numerals (wouldn't want you to have to resort to the devices of an "obviously inferior people"

and you might want to eschew most of the higher mathematics, (which are all the result of arab innovations


get an education, asshole


Algebra

1551, from M.L. from Arabic al jebr "reunion of broken parts" as in computation, used 9c. by Baghdad mathematician Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi as the title of his famous treatise on equations ("Kitab al-Jabr w'al-Muqabala" "Rules of Reintegration and Reduction"), which also introduced Arabic numerals to the West. The accent shifted 17c. from second syllable to first. The word was used in Eng. 15c.-16c. to mean "bone-setting," probably from the Arabs in Spain.

[Neurobürger]

Rome never looks where she treads.
Always her heavy hooves fall
On our stomachs, our hearts or our heads;
And Rome never heeds when we bawl.
Her sentries pass on -- that is all,
And we gather behind them in hordes,
And plot to reconquer the Wall,
With only our tongues for our swords.

We are the Little Folk -- we!
Too little to love or to hate.
Leave us alone and you'll see
How we can drag down the State!
We are the worm in the wood!
We are the rot at the root!
We are the taint in the blood!
We are the thorn in the foot!

Mistletoe killing an oak --
Rats gnawing cables in two --
Moths making holes in a cloak --
How they must love what they do!
Yes -- and we Little Folk too,
We are busy as they --
Working our works out of view --
Watch, and you'll see it some day!

No indeed! We are not strong,
But we know Peoples that are.
Yes, and we'll guide them along
To smash and destroy you in War!
We shall be slaves just the same?
Yes, we have always been slaves,
But you -- you will die of the shame,
And then we shall dance on your graves!

We are the Little Folk, we, etc.

-- Rudyard Kipling

[Dingo]

Kippling could be both the apologist for western imperialism and the spokesman for the little guy all in one package. Quite a trick!

[Eviscerator]

Honey you know nothing about patent history in the US, and you don't know squat about modern corporate product mangament. If you did, you'd have an inkling of the delicate balance corporations must maintain in order to maximize profit on older product lines v. introducing market disrupting technoloiges. You're way over your head here, son. I never said there was a conspiracy you idiot. Corporations have a vested interest in keeping older product lines and technologies afloat as long as money can be made off of them. Dude...that's capitalism and I'm a business-owning capitalist. I don't know what the hell you are! LOL!

This is really quite off-topic. I do not claim to know every intricacy of corporate sgtrategy regarding patents. My interests in patents lie more in the over-arching arguments for why they are socially beneficial and I'm well-read in the philosophical justifications for patents. However, nothing you've said here even remotely addresses the topic of the post.

Stay on topic please. We are discussing how the vast difference in patents produced by two different cultures makes those cultures more valuable to other societies.

[Eviscerator]

If I had to wager, I'd say it's a safe bet that you're a college student who's recently taken a philosophy class.

Not even close.

[Eviscerator]

BULLSHIT!

Well, there are two basic categories of arguments sustaining universal claims of human rights. They are either God-based or Nature-based. Both have been completely forsaken. Go to almost any university humanities department and ask them about "human nature" and you'll get laughed at.

Assertions of "human rights" are simply ipse dixit, and like all groundless assertions they eventually fail.

Either you have to revive a God-based or Nature-based argument for "human rights" or you will see the concept go the way of the dinosaur.

[Eviscerator]

PRESENT YOUR EVIDENCE........

WMM

Already did. Look at every other Arab society in the region. Saudi Arabia with its oil wealth has produced zero patents in the last six years. Arab cultures almost invariably produce rotten, sclerotic institutions that produce dysfunctional societies and people.

I see why the Palestinians would be any different from other Arab societies with a state of their own.

Please pay more attention to the entire thread.

[Eviscerator]

on the contrary, "jackass", i [/b]did[/b] pay attention to your "points" (such as they are)

i was, however, trying to give you the 'benefit of the doubt'

unfortunately, you showed your true colors with your comments regarding the "justification" of hitler's genocidal policies towards european jewry, when you said that it would have been 'justified' if what he'd said was true.

you've basically presented in your opening thesis, what can best be called the "master race gambit"

you set up a straw-man ('patents') in order to prove a pre-determined thesis - ie, the "inferior" cultural status of palestinians, as justification for their oppression and expropriation by zionist imperialism.




first of all, jackass

your statment that there were "no patents filed in saudia arabia" is utterly false

it's best if you don't try to lie around here. one of us will probably catch you out and you will lose what little credibility you came with.

[quote]
[




first of all, jackass

your statment that there were no patents filed by saudia arabians is utterly false

it's best if you don't try to lie around here. one of us will probably catch you out and you will lose what little credibility you came with.

in fact, saudi citizens have registered at least 28 invididual patents (filed under an individual's name) and at least 34 patents registered by corporations, in this country.

http://www.uspto.gov/go/taf/asgstc/sax_stc.htm

patents are most often registered in the largest countries/markets, and it is not unusual for the inventors/corporations in question to neglect filing patents in smaller markets.







capital comes to israel because there is a surplus in the 'developed' countries and this surplus seeks an outlet wherever it can find it. it does generally require stability, but capitalists will invest in the most unstable regions, if the potential for profit is high enough.

capitalists prefer to invest in places where their governments exert some influence and control, and this is clearly the case with israel, especially in regards to US capital, which is backed up and protected by heavy subsidies from the US government towards israel's military and police apparatus.





you attempt to posit the idea that because palestinians don't have an office of patent registry, they are somehow "inferior" and therefore not deserving of the right of a national identity .

you've basically taken the 19th century concept of "the white man's burden" and updated it for the 21st century, by advancing the claim that "inferior peoples" should have no rights that the culturally superior peoples are bound to respect.



and since we're on the subject, perhaps you should start balancing your chequebook with roman numerals (or whatever you like), but certainly you should avoid using arabic numerals (wouldn't want you to have to resort to the devices of an "obviously inferior people"

and you might want to eschew most of the higher mathematics, (which are all the result of arab innovations


get an education, asshole

Again, you fail to pay attention to the conversation. I directly stated that I support the creation of an autonomous, contiguous Palestinian state.

You also demonstrate your lack of reading ability by your inane "Master race" comment. My focus is quite clearly about culture and has nothing to do with race.

Again, please stay on topic. Focus, focus, focus.

[whitemajikman]

Already did. Look at every other Arab society in the region. Saudi Arabia with its oil wealth has produced zero patents in the last six years. Arab cultures almost invariably produce rotten, sclerotic institutions that produce dysfunctional societies and people.

I see why the Palestinians would be any different from other Arab societies with a state of their own.

Please pay more attention to the entire thread.

I Have Now It's Your Turn.............

You Are Making Your Assumptions Regarding Arab culture Based Upon What Other Culture?

What Culture Have You Used As A Control For Your Thesis?

And Why?

The Reason I Ask Is Because EVERY CULTURE Has The Traits You Have RUSHED to pin on the Arab World............

Which Makes Your Observations a Fabrication Of Conscience ........

WMM

[dewey189]

Not even close.Your lack of knowledge of patents and how they're used in modern capitalist enterprise suggests to me that you spend more time on college-level philosophical bantering than in-depth investigation of the behavior of corporations, and the impact changes in invention, innovation and patent-granting from individuals to corporations have had during the last century.

[Neurobürger]

This is really quite off-topic. I do not claim to know every intricacy of corporate sgtrategy regarding patents. My interests in patents lie more in the over-arching arguments for why they are socially beneficial and I'm well-read in the philosophical justifications for patents. However, nothing you've said here even remotely addresses the topic of the post.

Stay on topic please. We are discussing how the vast difference in patents produced by two different cultures makes those cultures more valuable to other societies.


"cultures" do not create new technologies. individuals do.

therein lies the fallacy of your gambit

(in the immortal words of m. feinberg): "NNNNNEEEXXXT!"

[Neurobürger]

* *
*
Brain drain threatens future of Arab science
Wagdy Sawahel
3 June 2004
Source: SciDev.Net


The emigration of scientists, disenchanted by factors ranging from a lack of investment in research to social and political instability in the region, is threatening the future technological and scientific development of the Arab world, according to a new study by Cairo's Gulf Centre for Strategic Studies.

The study found that the emigration of intellectuals from the Arab world accounts for about one-third of the total 'brain drain' from developing countries to the West. Arab countries lose half of their newly-qualified medical doctors, 23 per cent of engineers and 15 per cent of scientists each year, with three quarters of these moving to the United Kingdom, United States and Canada. This is estimated to equate to annual losses to Arab states of more than US$2 billion.

The study also found that 45 per cent of Arab students who study abroad do not go back to their countries after graduating. As a result, it says that Western states are the greatest beneficiaries of 450,000 Arabs with higher scientific qualifications.

The study says that a range of political, economic, social and personal factors are to blame for the brain drain. These include the slow development in Arab countries, a failure to make adequate use of new technologies in the productive sector, low salaries, and the relative lack of opportunities for scientific research.

Broader factors include the political and social instability in many countries in the region. Iraq, for example, is currently suffering a new brain drain as intellectuals flood out of the country to avoid unemployment and assassination attempts (see NW1369ENG Iraqi weapons scientists targeted by killers).

The study recommends an 11-fold increase in spending on scientific research and preparation of a strategy for science development in the Arab world as part of a strategy to counteract the impact of the brain drain.

It points out that at present, only 0.2 per cent of the Arab region's Gross Domestic Product is spent on scientific research, compared to between two and 3.6 per cent in Denmark, France, Japan, Israel, Switzerland and the United States.

"If the 10,000 Egyptian experts who are working abroad in the medical and biotechnology sector came back, it would be enough to start a new technological revolution in Egypt," says Venice Kamel Gouda, former Egyptian minister of scientific research.

She urges Arab states to support the Network of Arab Scientists and Technologies Abroad (ASTA) to act as 'an emigrant think-tank' that would serve as a bridge with Arab countries through consultancies, sabbaticals and the exchange of information.

"The crisis facing the region is real and very serious...and the road is long," says Arab League secretary general Amr Moussa. "That's why Arab nations should double their efforts to further development".
Link to summary of the GCSS Arab brain drain study (in Arabic)

http://www.scidev.net/News/index.cfm?fuseaction=readNews&itemid=1410&language=1

*

[Neurobürger]

your vaunted 'western civilization' is standing on the shoulders of giants.....giants who speak arabic



Arabic/Islamic Science and the Renaissance Science in Italy

Between the years 1957 and 1984, Otto Neugebauer, Edward Kennedy, Willy Hartner, Noel Swerdlow, and the present author, as well as others, have managed to determine that the mathematical edifice of Copernican astronomy could not have been built, as it was finally built, by just using the mathematical information available in such classical Greek mathematical and astronomical works as Euclid’s Elements and Ptolemy’s Almagest.2 What was needed, and was in fact deployed by Copernicus (1473-1543) himself, was the addition of two new mathematical theorems. Both of those theorems were first produced some three centuries before Copernicus and were used by astronomers working in the Islamic world for the express purpose to reform Greek astronomy.3
In other words, the research that has accumulated over the last forty odd years has* now established that the mathematical basis of Copernican astronomy was mainly inherited from the Greek sources -- mostly from Euclid and Ptolemy -- except for two important theorems that were added later on by astronomers working within the Islamic world and writing mainly in Arabic. Furthermore, the same recent findings have now demonstrated the context within which these theorems first appeared in the Arabic astronomical sources, namely, the context of criticizing and reformulating the Greek astronomical tradition.* We also know that the works containing such theorems were mostly produced during the thirteenth century and thereafter.* Accounts of such works have been detailed in various publications.4
As far as we know, none of the Arabic works containing these theorems had ever been translated into Latin, at least not translated in the same fashion we know of other Arabic scientific sources that were translated during the earlier Middle Ages. Hence there is no easy explanation of direct transmission in the same fashion one could account for the transmission of Avicenna’s medical works into Latin or Averroes’s philosophical works or the hundreds of other Arabic texts that could be easily documented as having been "translated" into Latin during the great well known (but least studied) translation period of Arabic texts during the early Middle Ages.* Moreover, we also know that those same theorems, once produced, they continued to be extensively used, in various shapes and forms, in Arabic astronomical texts well before the time of Copernicus, contemporaneously with him and even after his time.5
Finally, it is now better understood that the Arabic astronomical texts that deployed these theorems formed part of a rather well established tradition in Arabic astronomy whose purpose was to criticize, object to, and create alternatives to the inherited Greek astronomy rather than preserve it, tinker with it, and deliver it to Europe during the Arabic Latin translations of the Middle Ages as is so often repeated. That much is already well known and has been relatively well established by the research of the last forty years or so.

*
*
*
*
*
*

(1&2) Now, when we remember that Copernican astronomy itself gave us such concepts as the "Copernican Revolution", a concept that was so brilliantly expounded by Thomas Kuhn in his book with the same title,6 and that the "Copernican Revolution" crystallized in itself the spirit of science during the Renaissance, then it is not difficult to imagine why this overlapping between the mathematical astronomy of Copernicus and the mathematical astronomy of the Arabic-writing astronomers who preceded him, or rather that blurring of the borders between Arabic and Copernican astronomies, would become extremely interesting. But before pursuing the implications of that intersection any further it is very important to devote a few words to the very core of this intersection, namely, the two theorems in question in order to demonstrate the level of sophistication involved, the level of integration these theorems enjoyed within Copernican astronomy itself, and the level to which such evidence can indeed blur the borders as was stated above.
(3&4)

(5) The first theorem is now called the Tusi Couple (slides 1&2). It takes its name from the famous astronomer and polymath, Nasir al-Din al-Tusi (d. 1274) who first proposed it in 1247,7 (slides 3&4) and later formalized and proved it in 1259/60 (slide 5). In essence the theorem simply stipulates that if we take two spheres, one of them twice the size of the other, and place them in such a way that the smaller sphere is inner tangent at one point to the larger sphere, then if we allow the larger sphere to move in place at any speed and allow the smaller sphere to move also in place, but in the opposite direction, at twice that speed, then the original point of tangency on the circumference of the smaller sphere would oscillate back and forth along the diameter of the larger sphere. In much more general and philosophical terms, the theorem states that linear motion could be derived from circular uniform motion and vice versa, with all that this new formulation implies for the general framework of Aristotelian categorization of celestial versus sublunar motion.
As it is now evident, the same theorem appears again in the works of Copernicus, in the sixteenth century, and is deployed to solve the same problems that it was used to solve in the Arabic sources where it was first conceived.

Whose Science is Arabic Science in Renaissance Europe?
© 1999
George Saliba
Columbia University
http://www.columbia.edu/~gas1/project/visions/case1/sci.2.html

[Neurobürger]

inventions really aren't the product of one man, even in the days of edison, or franklin

everything that ever has come into existence has been the product of the combined efforts of peoples and cultures.





Amazon Tribe Protests at US Patent Office in Washington over
"Biopiracy" Theft of Traditional Sacred Drug

Wednesday, March 31, 1999 - 6:00 a.m.

5) Amazon tribal leaders challenge U.S. patent

By Bill Lambrecht

St. Louis Post-Dispatch Washington Bureau

WASHINGTON -- In this land of tailored suits, the scene Tuesday was

extraordinary: Amazon medicine men adorned in shell necklaces and exotic

bird feathers chanting a religious ceremony and sipping potions.

The tribal leaders achieved the real purpose of their long journey just

before their depiction of a ceremony. They visited the U.S. Patent and

Trademark Office in suburban Washington to challenge the validity of a

patent awarded a California entrepreneur for the main ingredient of

their healing potion - the hallucinogenic plant ayahuasca.

"Our ancestors learned the knowledge of this medicine and we are the

owners of this knowledge," said Antonio Jacanamijoy, who heads a council

representing more than 400 tribes and indigenous groups in South

America.

Ayahuasca (pronounced eye-yuh-WAHS-cuh) looks like any bushy tree

sprouting in the jungle. But to indigenous peoples in South America, it

is a sacred plant whose name translates to "vine of the soul." They

likened the patent in question to patenting the Christian cross.

The 13-year-old patent has become an issue of such magnitude that it has

stirred physical threats, led to the cancellation of U.S. aid to South

American tribes and all but shut down "bioprospecting" for valuable

plants in Peru, Ecuador and the rest of the Amazon basin.

The fallout has been felt in St. Louis. The Missouri Botanical Garden,

Monsanto Co. and Washington University all have found it more difficult

to arrange bioprospecting ventures to South America in recent years to

collect plants for new drugs and for traits that can be genetically

engineered into crops. Many of the world's best-selling pharmaceuticals

and most of its cancer drugs are from the tropics.

Jim Miller, who directs the Missouri Botanical Garden's global

bioprospecting, said that many people in South America had wrongly

associated the ayahuasca controversy with legitimate plant collecting.

"It's sure got people fired up," he said. Miller, too, questioned

whether the patent is valid.

The events started unfolding in the mid-1980s when Loren Miller, then a

graduate student in pharmacology, brought home a variety of the plant

from Ecuador. Miller founded the International Plant Medicine Corp. in

California and applied for a U.S. patent, which was awarded in 1986. He

had no plans to sell it as a hallucinogenic drug; he says he believed

that the plant might contain properties that would be effective in

psychotherapy and possibly in treating cancer.

Not until 1994 did the tribes learn of the patent. They decided it meant

that Miller would control what had been part of their culture for

centuries. Word even went out that shamans wanting to use ayahuasca

would need his permission, which was untrue.

By 1996, feelings ran so hot that the council of tribes declared Miller

"an enemy of indigenous peoples." A statement by the group warned that

if Miller or his associates returned to the region, tribes "will not be

responsible for the consequences to their physical safety."

The matter would not die down and last year, because of the threat, the

U.S. government's Inter-American Foundation cut off aid to the tribal

council after giving it more than $500,000 in recent years.

Miller asserted Tuesday that he has been a victim of misdirected anger.

He said that he had not stolen the plant; it had been given to him from

the garden of a tribe that he wouldn't identify. He also said that tests

had found no valuable properties in the plant and that he has no plan to

use the patent.

"If they say the patent is no good, I don't care. This is so ridiculous.

... I've never sold anything," he said.

Nonetheless, the tribal leaders say they have been violated. And they

worry, they said, that the plant could be misused and cause harm. They

likened it to coca, another South American cultural staple and the plant

from which cocaine is derived.

David Downes, a lawyer in Washington representing the group, contended

that Miller's patent is flawed and therefore should be revoked. The

patent was awarded after Miller reported finding a new variety with

flowers differently colored. William Anderson, a University of Michigan

botanist supporting the challenge, said he had concluded that no new

variety had been discovered.

Downes noted that several patents issued in the United States have

infuriated people around the world. For instance, patents were awarded

to companies on turmeric, a spice, and for basmati rice, both staples in

India.

"When people claim as private property something that is sacred

knowledge of thousands of people, we fear that patents have gone too far

into the public domain," Downes said.

[rebeccalstein]

The notion that we should or should not criticize a nation's policies based upon it's technological achievements brings about serious logic contradictions.

For example, Nazi Germany was a prolific technological innovator. According to "Eviserator's" logic, we should be praising the Nazis because of their achievements in this regard.

Sorry, Eviserator. Maybe you love the Nazis because of their technology, but I sure don't.

Israel's technological achievements are not to be denied. But neither should it be denied that Israel is behaving very much like the Nazis with regards to the Palestinians.

Rebecca L. Stein

[Bubba2]

Israel's technological achievements are not to be denied. But neither should it be denied that Israel is behaving very much like the Nazis with regards to the Palestinians.

Rebecca L. Stein

Yes they are wise lady, yet how is it reconciled that polls of the Israeli citizenry, as well as polls of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, support the recognition of each others rights to peaceful co-existance?

http://btvshalom.org/resources/isr_polls.shtml

Who do the leaders listen to?

[rebeccalstein]

[QUOTE=Bubba2][SIZE=4][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Yes they are wise lady, yet how is it reconciled that polls of the Israeli citizenry, as well as polls of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, support the recognition of each others rights to peaceful co-existance?



It is correct that the majority of Israelis and Palestinians would like to live and let live in peace. However it is also correct that the Palestinian people are being cruelly brutalized by Israel.

Becky