It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature

[lynn george]

SmT- Hey, hey Thanks, B9 just look at those babies shoot out all of that black *water vapor*. I assume MOST of that is during take off and landing? Now THAT could never cause ANY problems even if there were thousands and thousands. Can you say PARTICULATES? Nice planes but I failed to find a picture of one labelled "Particle Air" like the one shown shown in the "infamous" 7th grade text book. You know where they talk about running the planes "dirtier" (yep even probably dirtier than the planes exhaust you pictured) to help block out the sun. Can you believe they are teaching kids such "chemmie" trash? wink wink. Look what those old "chemmies" like Teller started and people like Michaelson promote the "chemmie" idea of putting particulates in the atmosphere? And those "chemmies" at the Observer with their "chemmie" giant space shield. I'm glad you're against the use of doing something so foolish as trying to place particulates up in the atmosphere without letting the public know and alerting them of the problems so they can also take appropriate action. But B9 I think you're years to late. Just look up. And read and read the science and policy literature that has been posted here. It's real whether you want to admit it or not. But no matter. I see you din't offer ONE comment from anything I posted. All together now D-E-N-I-A-L. By the way. Have you seen the new geoengineering stamps?Absolutely spooky that they are either going to come clean on these climate modification programs, or more sinisterly they may try and pass these off as some kind of new "quasi-natural" cloud. Can you say FIBRATUS? Now are they going to perhaps admit that one is made with polymer 'fibrils' or do you think it's still more of that arrogant since of humor one sees in Empires lacking any real leaders only con-men?

SmT

Particulates in the air come from pollution .....whether it be contrails from
jets.....or emmisions from cars....

They key Issue is pollution.....


You have totally taken out of context all those articles written and have weaved them into your own paranoid rant SO as To keep re-asserting your belief in a HOAX....


Instead of spewing your official cult ranting's......

Please tell us why you cannot defend against LEXTA's SCIENTIFIC REASONING......?

BASED UPON SCIENCE NOT CONSPIRACY THEORY.....?


PLEASE TELL US WHY AND HOW YOU EVEN GOT CAUGHT UP IN THE CHEMTRAIL HOAX.....?

WAS IT BECAUSE YOU DECIDED TO LOOK UP ONE DAY......AND BAM....THERE WAS SOME NOTICABLE CONTRAILS......

THEN YOU WANTED TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF YOUR OBSERVATION'S.....

COULD IT BE THAT YOU GOOGLED CONTRAIL'S AND GOT CAUGHT UP IN THE CONSPIRACY AND HOAX OF CHEMTRAIL'S......

AND AS SOON AS YOU DISCOVERED THEIR IS A WHOLE SUB-CULTURE DEDICATED TO THE HOAX THAT IS CHEMTRAILS,YOU DECIDED TO GET YOURSELF SUBVERTED........LITTLE BY LITTLE......POST AFTER POST......

UNTIL YOU FOUND YOURSELF SO WRAPPED UP IN THE HOAX.....

YOU THINK OF LITTLE ELSE.......

AND HAVE BECOME A CHEMTRAIL CULTIST YOURSELF.......?


YOU KNOW SMT.......

I THINK MY VERSION OF THE EVENTS THAT LED TO YOUR FASCINATION AND INEVITABLE FALL INTO THE CHEMTRAIL CULT'S SUB-CULTURE.....

IS PROBABLY THE ACCURATE ONE.....


SmT- You are funny but kind of a nutjob WMM. You keep us all laughing here with your constant stream of noise. But I won't feed you. Just a crumb or two. Go back to sleep and sheeple-land.

[jayreynolds]

I think Letxa's research was admirable. Few chemmies look further than overhead, thinking that their location is the end of the known universe!

Looking upwind is the key to unraveling thses "whiteout" events the chemmies talk about. It can be done in realtime very easily, or by referring to satellite archived images like Letxa did.

His research definitely shows how the contrails became parallel tracks, considering the wind blowing strongly out of the west shearing them eastwards, and how the haze moved easterly too.

This is the sort of thing that should have been done by the chemmies, but they are frankly out of their league when it comes to research other than a one keyword google.

Not to diminish anything Letxa has shown us in this case, but chemcult promoter Clifford Carnicom tried one of those "they closed down the sky" tricks back five years ago. He created a webpage but never actually linked it anywhere(guess why?). It describes how I went into the satelliet archives and showed that the overcast which eventually occluded his sky was just a frontal system which had formed out in the Pacific and eventually got to New Mexico.
Sorry, five years lateralmost all the links are dead now.

http://www.carnicom.com/altcon1.htm

==============
On a comical note, lots of us are getting a good laugh out of the punch/judy show you chemkooks put on!
http://p090.ezboard.com/fcontrailsandchemtrails22884frm1.showMessage?topic ID=2371.topic

[whitemajikman]

SmT- You are funny but kind of a nutjob WMM. You keep us all laughing here with your constant stream of noise. But I won't feed you. Just a crumb or two. Go back to sleep and sheeple-land.


How funny that you try and skirt The question I have laid before you......

HOW DID YOU GET CAUGHT UP IN THE CHEMTRAIL HOAX.........?

come on PUT UP OR SHUT UP........isn't that how the saying goes.....?

[letxa2000]

Lynn george: SmT- Wow! You sure debunked those you excellent debater you.

The authors of those articles aren't here so I can't debate them. You are here and I'd be happy to debate you if you have anything original to contribute based on your own intelligence. Debating isn't just copy/pasting material or providing links to that material--debating is contributing your own knowledge in your own words which is supported by external sources. Copy/paste and stand-alone links isn't debating, it's busy work.


SmT- Did they also mention DOZENS of planes coming out and flying 180's, in semi-circles, right at each other, curving off at right angles filling the sky with white smokey expanding trails all the while normal jets travel throught he area leaving only quickly disapating contrails or no trails.

Still waiting for pictures or, preferably, video of this. It's often claimed yet I've never seen any evidence of it in person or even in pictures. You'd think that as common as it supposedly has been for more than half a decade that someone would have taken irrefutable video or pictures of these events. Yet all I see on conspiracy sites are pictures of high-flying planes leaving contrails. Where are the pictures or videos of dozens of planes coming out and flying 180's, semi-circles, and playing chicken with each other?


SmT- Lex here's where your critical analysis skills seem to be lacking. If spraying has been going on at LEAST on a regular basis since as most researchers claim 1997 alot of what is floating in our atmosphere IS ALREADY CHEMHAZE.

That's just plain bunk. Given that line of thinking, how do we ever have clear days? Or do these magical chemicals make haze some days and on other days become invisible to let us have perfectly blue, cloudless skies? In any case, that whole line of thinking assumes you believe that "spraying" has been going on since 1997. Until you prove that it is completely invalid to use that speculation as the basis for suggesting that some of the clouds are actually "haze" from spraying in years gone by. Sure, if you assume that spraying has been going on since 1997 then perhaps that helps lend credibility to your belief that the January 29th haze was "chemhaze."

Unfortuantely, that leaves you with the task of proving that "spraying" has actually been going on since 1997 which is probably just as impossible as proving the contrails of January 29th were anything other than contrails.

[lynn george]

[quote=lynn george][quote=superliberal]

Link has a close up.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=16528

Compare this picture with the image progression Sore Throat posted showing how these aerosol trails fuse into one solid mass.

C'mon bunkies, pay attention. LOOK what is happening to our skies. End The Denial.

SmT


SmT- Let me address Letxa's issues:


Let's look at the picture and see if we can determine anything about the flight paths shown by the 'contrails' ( and I leave the possiblity open that they may be "chemically enhanced" trails" designed to remain "persistant".

1- In what time span do we have the trails shown forming ? SuperLiberal or whomever posted the original, do you have access to pictures showing the same area with say 8, 24, 36, 48hr time lapse. In other words were there just as many trails 12 hours ago from when the image was made? How about 24 hours before? How about after? Are these sequences available to the public?(I followed the link above and it has the full blown up picture of the South- east well worth looking at. One can see that the contrails ARE fusing together much more clearly and how they dispate and spread.)

2-Also, looking at the fight paths as evidenced by the trails what can we say about them? I would expect trails perhaps in a radial fashion of some sort indicating from where or to where these planes are headed. I have begun looking on a map of Georgia and Florida and trying to place activity such as might be around Atlanta or the Northern and central parts of Florida. I would suggest every contrail and chemtrail researcher become more familiar (as I am trying to do) with ALL that is ocurring above in our skies whether it leads to contrail or chemtrail, or both.

SmT

[jayreynolds]

Show-Me-Truth wrote:
"I HIGHLY advise blowing it up as I did and CLOSELY take a better look at what is happening."

OK, Missy. ENOUGH OF THE "BLOWING UP" SUGGESTIONS!

Or are you just another chem-cultist looking for an all-expenses paid Guantanamo Bay vacation?

================================

On a more serious note, just what sort of pain has the "chemtrail" hoax caused, even to it's promoters? One need look no further than at the above-mentioned Clifford Carnicom.

Late last year, Carnicom began digging into the flesh of his jaw because he believed that he had embedded "fibers" from "chemtrails" that caused a toothache. Nevermind that he had been told for twenty years that he still had a baby tooth.
http://www.carnicom.com/med1.htm

The self-multilation is described by Carnicom this way:

"In an effort to try to identify the true orgin of the pain, gradual probing with the water pic and dental needle was continued beyond the immediate area for several weeks."

Got that people? He dug the flesh of his jaw for WEEKS with a needle!

Carnicom continues:

"The dental needle revealed a pointed source of pain deep within the gum between those two teeth. This pain was not evident unless sufficient probing to identify the source of any pain was completed."

Got that people? He had to STICK THE NEEDLE IN DEEP IN THE JAW BETWEEN TWO TEETH!

Finally, Carnicom starts removing flesh:

"The difficulty that had arisen is that this source of pain could not be eliminated, regardless of the attention and patience given over a several week to month period. No obvious degradation or deterioration in the gum adjacent to the pain origin was visible.

With continued effort, approximately one month ago, two small but visible filaments were removed from deep within the gum between these two teeth."

People, the guy is agonizingly removing parts of his gum, no doubt a painful process, especially if he takes weeks to a month to do it.
CAN YOU IMAGINE THE PAIN?

"The mass is approximately 1.5mm in diameter, and at first glance might appear to be of biological origin due to the reddish color."

Well, Cliffie, maybe it's red because of all the blood, huh?

But Carnicom isn't finished yet, he keeps right on digging:

"The findings of this day appear to be of a more unusual nature, however, and the facts of observation should be made evident. On this morning, the process of probing with the dental needle to the source of the pain continued. A visible mass eventually appeared at the base of the two teeth mentioned. The size and solid form of the material did appear to be unusual at that point, and it was subsequently collected for observation and analysis under the microscope."

Ok, Carnicom has finally completed his tale of excruciating extraction of ulcerative tissue from his jaw, and then he proceeds to show the bloody mass to the audience.

Folks, this whole episode is known to psychologists as "Delusional Parasitosis", usually the sufferer believes he is infested with parasitic organisms. In the case of Carnicom, his paranoid delusions center on "chemtrails" and "aerosol fibers", so he blames his "problems" on "chemtrails".

Don't try and tell me nobody ever hurt themselves over the 'chemtrails" hoax, folks. It's documented right here in Carnicom's own words.

It is self-mutilation.

[jayreynolds]

SMT wrote:
"I have begun looking on a map of Georgia and Florida and trying to place activity such as might be around Atlanta or the Northern and central parts of Florida. I would suggest every contrail and chemtrail researcher become more familiar (as I am trying to do) with ALL that is ocurring above in our skies whether it leads to contrail or chemtrail, or both."

What a bunch of lying crap you bitch. I told you weks ago to get Flight Explorer and you can see exactly which planews fly over the whole damn United States in realtime. You haven't done it yet else you'd know already.

[whitemajikman]

SmT- Let me address Letxa's issues:


Let's look at the picture and see if we can determine anything about the flight paths shown by the 'contrails' ( and I leave the possiblity open that they may be "chemically enhanced" trails" designed to remain "persistant".

1- In what time span do we have the trails shown forming ? SuperLiberal or whomever posted the original, do you have access to pictures showing the same area with say 8, 24, 36, 48hr time lapse. In other words were there just as many trails 12 hours ago from when the image was made? How about 24 hours before? How about after? Are these sequences available to the public?

2-Also, looking at the fight paths as evidenced by the trails what can we say about them? I would expect trails perhaps in a radial fashion of some sort indicating from where or to where these planes are headed. I have begun looking on a map of Georgia and Florida and trying to place activity such as might be around Atlanta or the Northern and central parts of Florida. I would suggest every contrail and chemtrail researcher become more familiar (as I am trying to do) with ALL that is ocurring above in our skies whether it leads to contrail or chemtrail, or both.







you can bark about time spans all you want ,but the fact is at every given moment of every given day there are upwards of 5000 planes in the air over north america the trail's are definitely flight corridors and you are questioning the official version without the use of science or even logic.

[lynn george]

[

Lex-The authors of those articles aren't here so I can't debate them. You are here and I'd be happy to debate you if you have anything original to contribute based on your own intelligence. Debating isn't just copy/pasting material or providing links to that material--debating is contributing your own knowledge in your own words which is supported by external sources. Copy/paste and stand-alone links isn't debating, it's busy work.

SmT- Your absolutely right Lex, please don't ever take the time to read and learn anything relevant to the subject. Simply naysay and claim every link that you HAVEN'T read, you "just know" what it's all about. Just like you claim you can't go out and try and observe what some people are referring to as a "chemtrail" because you don't know "what to look for". Just like a detective going out to a crime scene you work in reverse thinking you must know EXACTLY what to look for in some Text book defined definition. The ONLY REAL WAY to observe chemtrailing is to OBSERVE chemtrailing. But then you already know that. So you refuse to even look up. Or maybe by now you finally have. And of course you "see notjing unusual". Do you by the way use a talking points bulletin or do you all just ad-lib? Or perhaps you all are really evil aliases of Bunkie J being typed in some NSA office somewhere? :D





Lex-Still waiting for pictures or, preferably, video of this. It's often claimed yet I've never seen any evidence of it in person or even in pictures. You'd think that as common as it supposedly has been for more than half a decade that someone would have taken irrefutable video or pictures of these events. Yet all I see on conspiracy sites are pictures of high-flying planes leaving contrails. Where are the pictures or videos of dozens of planes coming out and flying 180's, semi-circles, and playing chicken with each other?


SmT- Lex you've ignored every picture you've ever scene, the one of the contrail tests pictured here earlier you once suggested was an "AWACS" plane just inadvertantly leaving very large easy to see trails. When I am able to either get my 8mm tapes to the right format I will be happy to post them And I can't wait to post those two pages from the 7th grade science book of "Particle AIR" sharing it's pollution with the Earth in order to block the sun and act as a sunshield.



SmT- Lex here's where your critical analysis skills seem to be lacking. If spraying has been going on at LEAST on a regular basis since as most researchers claim 1997 alot of what is floating in our atmosphere IS ALREADY CHEMHAZE.

Lex-That's just plain bunk. Given that line of thinking, how do we ever have clear days?

SmT -No, that's just more poor critical analysis skills. Duh, have you ever heard of rain. And Duh, did anyone suggest that the Erath could be nearly 100% covered ALL the time. Put on your thinking cap Lex, your still acting like a bunkie.


Lex-Or do these magical chemicals make haze some days and on other days become invisible to let us have perfectly blue, cloudless skies?

SmT-Duh, again. Of COURSE they interact with different weather conditions. THAT's THE IDEA.

Lex-In any case, that whole line of thinking assumes you believe that "spraying" has been going on since 1997. Until you prove that it is completely invalid to use that speculation as the basis for suggesting that some of the clouds are actually "haze" from spraying in years gone by.

SmT- Prove it's only water vapor. You can't. And tell me again how that BLACK and BROWN smoke coming from the planes B9 pictured is just "water vapor".


Lex-Sure, if you assume that spraying has been going on since 1997 then perhaps that helps lend credibility to your belief that the January 29th haze was "chemhaze."

SmT- Yeah?


Lex-Unfortuantely, that leaves you with the task of proving that "spraying" has actually been going on since 1997 which is probably just as impossible as proving the contrails of January 29th were anything
other than contrails.

SmT- Really it doesn't leave me having to prove anything. I simply have come to the conclusions I have based upon evidence I have available to me. I feel certain anyone looking GENUINELY into climate modification will easily and soon realize this has been going on for a few years now on a major scale. But as to your comments about the image in question, let's address it a have a close look shall we?

Smt

[whitemajikman]

My oh my oh my......CLIFFIE,....POOR CLIFFIE .....I ALMOST FORGOT ABOUT CLIFFIE.....

SMT......
SEE WHERE YOUR BELIEF IN THE CHEMTRAIL HOAX WILL GET YOU ......SOON YOU ALL WILL BE PUTTING PROBES ....WHERE THEY DON'T BELONG, LOOKING FOR YOUR FIBROUS PARTICULATE WHICH UNBEKNOWNST TO YOU IS IN REALITY NON-EXISTENT.......


OR MAYBE A BIZZARE CULT RITUAL YOU DECIDE..... :lol:


NO MATTER WHAT YOU THINK CLIFFIE IS NOT EXACTLY OF SOUND MIND,HAVEN'T YOU HEARD HE IS NOW CONVINCED THAT THE FIBRE HAS INVADED HIS BRAIN.....


I HOPE YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEAN'S..........?


CLIFFIE'S ORDEAL SHOULD HAVE WOKEN YOU UP LONG AGO.....SMT.

OR HOW ABOUT THE ORGONE.....?

AND THE INABILITY TO COME UP WITH SOUND SCIENTIFIC DATA FROM AN UNBIASED SOURCE............

WHAT ABOUT THAT FACT.........?

AND HOW ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU ARE SO BITTER THAT YOU CAN'T
PROVE YOUR CASE ..................

YOU ARE NOW TRYING TO USE AN ALREADY DEBUNKED PHOTO FOR PROOF AS TO CLING TO THE POSSIBILITY THAT YOU MIGHT PREVAIL IN THIS CONFRONTATION.......

WHEN IN FACT THE BATTLE WAS FAUGHT AND WON A FEW PAGES AGO....

AND YOU DID NOTHING TO STOP IT........

AND IN FACT HURT HALVA'S CAUSE........

AND BY DOING SO HURT YOUR OWN CASE BY ASSOCIATION.....

A FEW PAGES AGO......

HALVA IN HIS WAY ADMITTED TO DEFEAT.......

WHEN HE ADMONISHED GAIA.....

OR ARE YOU BLIND......?

OR WILL YOU DENY THIS.......?

[lynn george]

SmT- Let me address Letxa's issues:


Let's look at the picture and see if we can determine anything about the flight paths shown by the 'contrails' ( and I leave the possiblity open that they may be "chemically enhanced" trails" designed to remain "persistant".

1- In what time span do we have the trails shown forming ? SuperLiberal or whomever posted the original, do you have access to pictures showing the same area with say 8, 24, 36, 48hr time lapse. In other words were there just as many trails 12 hours ago from when the image was made? How about 24 hours before? How about after? Are these sequences available to the public?

2-Also, looking at the fight paths as evidenced by the trails what can we say about them? I would expect trails perhaps in a radial fashion of some sort indicating from where or to where these planes are headed. I have begun looking on a map of Georgia and Florida and trying to place activity such as might be around Atlanta or the Northern and central parts of Florida. I would suggest every contrail and chemtrail researcher become more familiar (as I am trying to do) with ALL that is ocurring above in our skies whether it leads to contrail or chemtrail, or both.







you can bark about time spans all you want ,but the fact is at every given moment of every given day there are upwards of 5000 planes in the air over north america the trail's are definitely flight corridors and you are questioning the official version without the use of science or even logic.


SmT-No you just questioned my questions without science or even logic. Typical bunkie behavior. No more cookies for you.

[letxa2000]

1- In what time span do we have the trails shown forming ? SuperLiberal or whomever posted the original, do you have access to pictures showing the same area with say 8, 24, 36, 48hr time lapse. In other words were there just as many trails 12 hours ago from when the image was made? How about 24 hours before? How about after? Are these sequences available to the public?

I don't know, do you have any? I would guess this picture was taken and preserved because the contrails themselves were interesting. Real scientists don't have any doubts as to where they come from so time-lapse photos of the sky earlier in the day very well may not have been taken or, if taken, may not have been preserved. This isn't suspicious. In fact, it pretty much confirms that you are barking up the wrong tree since no real scientist is concerned about where contrails come from because we know where they come from.


2-Also, looking at the fight paths as evidenced by the trails what can we say about them? I would expect trails perhaps in a radial fashion of some sort indicating from where or to where these planes are headed. I have begun looking on a map of Georgia and Florida and trying to place activity such as might be around Atlanta or the Northern and central parts of Florida.

That will be an exercise in futility and even you should recognize that.

1. The wind is blowing the contrails east. Extending the contrails you see in either direction almost certainly won't lead you to any airport since the contrails have already been blown dozens or hundreds of miles east.

2. To compensate for the wind you'd have to know 1) When the contrail was formed. 2) The altitude of the contrail (to investigate the wind speed at that altitude) and with that 3) determine the wind speed. Of those 3 pieces of information that would be needed to get an even approximate idea of where the contrail originally formed, we don't know a single one of them.

3. Even if you could determine approximately where the contrail was when it formed it is far from certain that it'd be aimed directly at an airport either at its source or destination. Planes don't fly in straight lines all the time. Especially after takeoff or on approach they can easily deviate dozens of miles or more before intersecting a flight route which they take towards their destination.

4. You aren't going to see "radials" of contrails because contrails won't be formed the moment planes take off from the airport. By the time they get to contrail atmospheric conditions they will usually be far from the airport and probably will have already turned such that the contrail most definitely will not be pointing towards the departure airport.


Lex-The authors of those articles aren't here so I can't debate them.

SmT- Your absolutely right Lex, please don't ever take the time to read and learn anything relevant to the subject.

I do. I'm just not going to accept that as your proxy argument. If you have something intelligent to say, say it and then use appropriate links to back up your words. Just posting links is silly.


SmT- Lex you've ignored every picture you've ever scene, the one of the contrail tests pictured here earlier you once suggested was an "AWACS" plane just inadvertantly leaving very large easy to see trails.

I've seen no pictures of dozens of planes flying circles, semicircles, or playing chicken. Can you point me to pictures or video that show this apparently common event?


No, that's just more poor critical analysis skills. Duh, have you ever heard of rain.

So these magical chemicals that supposedly have been in the atmosphere for years will be cleansed by rain? Then it hardly matters that they've supposedly been spraying since 1997 and you are still left with the reality that the "haze" was just clouds moving in from Texas.


SmT- Prove it's only water vapor. You can't.

That's the beauty of the situation. Every real scientist knows it's water vapor. Formation of contrails have been observed since WWII. It's not rocket science. If you want to suggest that it is anything other than water vapor I'm afraid you're going to have to prove it, not the other way around. That's just the way science works.

[whitemajikman]

UNUSUAL MEDICAL FINDING
Clifford E Carnicom
Dec 07 2003
Edited Jan 30 2004

Additional Notes Jan 30 2004:

A second fibrous mass has been retrieved from the same general location within the teeth as it has been described in the article below. The material has been retrieved from a depth of approximately 1/4 inch below the gum line with a dental needle. A remaining source of pain, although reduced, has existed since the removal of the first sample in Dec 2003. This second sample appears to be identical in nature to the original one, and it is extremely fibrous in nature. The differences between the photographs of Dec 2003 and Jan 2004 result from two main causes:

1. The use of methylene blue stain on the sample. The sample was resistant to a broad variety of stains including eosin and iodine.
2. A dramatically improved digital microscope construction, which now allows magnification to approx. 3000 without difficulty. Conventional visible light microscopy has an upper magnification limit of approximately 2000x.

The extensive fibrous nature of the sample can be seen clearly in the microphotograph immediately below. The size of the filaments measure from approximately 1 to 3 microns in thickness. For comparison, abestos fibers are on the order of 2 microns. A human hair is on the order of 60 to 100 microns n thickness.



Microphotograph of second fibrous sample.
Retrieved from lower gum. Magnification approx. 3000x.



An unusual helix form has been found within the fibrous sample.
Estimated size of helix approximately 10 microns in thickness.
The traces of the helix separations are barely visible
within this microphotograph.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Microphotograph of removed mass : Magnification ~15x
Diameter of mass is approximately 1.5mm.
Note even circular form for a portion of the boundary at lower left.
Irregular boundary is likely affected by needle instrument used for removal.
Light spot at top is a combination of tissue and lighting conditions of microscope.

A personal dental medical situation has been under observation and examination for approximately five months. The photographs and descriptions of these findings are being made available due to the numerous sources that disclose the repeated findings of unusual microscopic fibrous material within our environment, including a direct association with the aerosol operations. In addition, a segment of the medical community has expressed an interest in identifying the origin of unusual ailments apparently associated with the presence of microscopic filaments within the skin. It is unknown whether any associations exist between the current finding and the above circumstances, but the pertinent information shall be made available for considerations.

Approximately five months ago I experienced a severe tooth ache in the second bicuspid in the lower left jaw, being the the first problem of that type in my life. I aggresively pursued the origin of the pain and found it to be most likely associated with the gum. A regimen involving the use of a water pic and a dental needle was strictly followed, and some progress on that tooth and gum soon followed. After several weeks of careful attention, the majority of pain in that particular location had alleviated. This particular tooth is unusual in that it has been described to me in early adult years as never having reached maturity, and consequently is more eroded than is usual. Ultimately, it appears that this particular tooth may have been more vulnerable to an infection or ailment, and thus may explain why the pain first appeared at this location.

In an effort to try to identify the true orgin of the pain, gradual probing with the water pic and dental needle was continued beyond the immediate area for several weeks. This eventually led to the realization that the gum adjacent to several teeth of the lower left jaw had also been affected to a milder degree, with particular attention eventually between the central and left incisor of the lower jaw. The dental needle revealed a pointed source of pain deep within the gum between those two teeth. This pain was not evident unless sufficient probing to identify the source of any pain was completed. These circumstances were established approximately two months ago, and they have remained generally in a steady state until now.



Microphotograph : Magnification 60x
Darker border of central mass visible.
Less dense and highly fibrous materials surround the central mass


The difficulty that had arisen is that this source of pain could not be eliminated, regardless of the attention and patience given over a several week to month period. No obvious degradation or deterioration in the gum adjacent to the pain origin was visible.

With continued effort, approximately one month ago, two small but visible filaments were removed from deep within the gum between these two teeth. Some time and effort were expended under the microscope to analyze those fibers. Ultimately, no conclusions of certainty could be reached on the affair, and the benefit of doubt was given to assume it was most likely of a natural origin or from the use of a toothbrush. One fiber in particular was tubular and transparent, and although the event may have been peculiar it could not be interpreted as being extraordinary.



Microphotograph : Magnification 60x
Darker border of central mass visible.
Less Dense and highly fibrous materials surround the central mass.
Nature of fibrous materials slightly visible extending from border of central mass.

The findings of this day appear to be of a more unusual nature, however, and the facts of observation should be made evident. On this morning, the process of probing with the dental needle to the source of the pain continued. A visible mass eventually appeared at the base of the two teeth mentioned. The size and solid form of the material did appear to be unusual at that point, and it was subsequently collected for observation and analysis under the microscope.

The mass is approximately 1.5mm in diameter, and at first glance might appear to be of biological origin due to the reddish color. The most striking characteristic of the material, however, is that it appears to be composed primarily of filaments. The first estimate of the size of the fibers is on the order of approximately 5-10 microns in thickness. The central core of the material is rather dense, and not suitable for examination under the microscope. Various light arrangements, however, indicate that this central and generally circular mass also appears to be of a filamentous or fibrous nature. This central core remains intact at this point pending further evaluation. Several of the photographs on this page show the transition between the denser central core and the less dense boundary. It is at the boundary that numerous microsocopic filaments become visible, and that they can be seen to radiate generally outward. Most of these fibers are of a transparent nature, and are difficult to photograph adequately under low power because of light characterstics and their small size. The number of fibers that can be seen appear to number on the order of thousands to scores of thousands.



Microphotograph : Magnification 200x.
Fibrous nature of density transition zone visible.

Interspersed amongst the transparent fibers are occasional larger fibers. These fibers appear to be transparent, red or blue in color. Some evidence of these less common fibers are visible in the photographs on this page, and they are much more easily seen than the bulk of radial transparent fibers. If the bulk of the mass is found to have an natural and adequate explanation, attention will still be necessary to explain the additional larger and often colored fibers.

The level of pain of removal of the mass indicates that the material may have been integrated to a certain degree within the local nerve system.

It remains unclear at this point whether this mass of filamentous material is of biological or synthetic origin, or a combination of the two. Priority remains for a natural biological explanation of these events that have been described, but it is not available from this researcher at this point in time. Perhaps those knowledgeable in microbiology at a higher level will be forthcoming with a suitable examination and explanation.

[lynn george]

SMT wrote:
"I have begun looking on a map of Georgia and Florida and trying to place activity such as might be around Atlanta or the Northern and central parts of Florida. I would suggest every contrail and chemtrail researcher become more familiar (as I am trying to do) with ALL that is ocurring above in our skies whether it leads to contrail or chemtrail, or both."

What a bunch of lying crap you bitch. I told you weks ago to get Flight Explorer and you can see exactly which planews fly over the whole damn United States in realtime. You haven't done it yet else you'd know already.


SmT-Easy bunkie J, keep your shirt on. Those fascist tendencies I seem to see in your personality I have come to just accept, though your apparent lack of respect for 1st amendment freedoms as an AMERICAN I cannot appreciate. Here we SUPPORT the Bill of Rights ALL of it.

Now were you saying "you bitch" as in the verb as in one that "bitches", or were you more referring to the noun. Your statement seems unclear and written in a bit of a snit. Have you been drinking again? You should really get off of this thing when you startt to become abusive, one day it may very well get you in trouble. Climate engineering is worthy of discussion. But not in your present state. :lol:

SmT

[whitemajikman]

Aircraft Contrails Click here to view full image (556 kb)



NASA scientists have found that cirrus clouds, formed by contrails from aircraft engine exhaust, are capable of increasing average surface temperatures enough to account for a warming trend in the United States that occurred between 1975 and 1994. According to Patrick Minnis, a senior research scientist at NASA’s Langley Research Center in Hampton, Va., there has been a one percent per decade increase in cirrus cloud cover over the United States, likely due to air traffic. Cirrus clouds exert a warming influence on the surface by allowing most of the Sun’s rays to pass through but then trapping some of the resulting heat emitted by the surface and lower atmosphere. Using a general circulation model, Minnis estimates that cirrus clouds from contrails increased the temperatures of the lower atmosphere by anywhere from 0.36 to 0.54°F per decade. Minnis’s results show good agreement with weather service data, which reveal that the temperature of the surface and lower atmosphere rose by almost 0.5°F per decade between 1975 and 1994.

This enhanced infrared image from the Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS), aboard NASA’s Terra satellite, shows widespread contrails over the southeastern United States during the morning of January 29, 2004. Such satellite data are critical for studying the effects of contrails. The crisscrossing white lines are contrails that form from planes flying in different directions at different altitudes. Each contrail spreads and moves with the wind. Contrails often form over large areas during winter and spring.

For information about why NASA studies contrails, read: Clouds Caused By Aircraft Exhaust May Warm The U.S. Climate.

Image courtesy NASA Langley Research Center


HEY SMT.....


HERE IS OFFICIAL SCIENCE AND LOGIC TELL
US PLEASE WHAT IS INACCURATE ABOUT THIS ARTICLE..........?

COME ON GENIUS.....?

[halva]

All,
If researchers give in for any lengthy time to bunkie rambling and topic switching they fall into the exact snare set by the bunkies, which is simply to disrupt 'chemtrail'/geoengineering and climate engineering research and discussion.

I agree SmT. This is why I have been encouraging you, Footsoldier and the other people making valuable postings here to adjourn to Megasprayer, to which I would also go, but at the same time I would remain here alone to spam everything the debunkers put up.



I had to wade through four pages of what sounded like insane asylum people arguing over who was the smartest, to get to anything REMOTELY resembling anything to do with climate engineering. RESEARCHERS you are WASTING your time feeding the bunkies here.

Prior to this insane asylum interlude the debunkers were on the defensive. Reynolds was being called upon to speculate on what would happen if Lance Haubrick turned up at Dr. Zerefos' symposium claiming to be Dr. Ben-Hur, but Jay was unwilling to do this, because of his [like all our] uncertainty about what really is going to happen on that front, on which however he and the other debunkers had been merrily exercising their fantasies without feeling any need to check them against reality, or probability.

So instead he issued a pronunciamento enjoining silence on 'chemmies' if we didn't want to end up in Guantanamo.


A notice to all "chemtrail" cult promoters:

CEASE AND DESIST PROMOTING THE "CHEMTRAIL" HOAX

I will personally do my best to encourage state and Federal prosecution for as many "chemtrail" promoters as I can. I will recommend they be tried under federal RICO and state criminal syndicalism laws if US citizens, and as enemy combatants if non-US.


This opened an interesting contradiction between him, enjoining silence, and Letxa, condemning silence and inviting debate (as long as it was debate about what HE wanted to debate, and as long as he wasn't asked questions he couldn't answer).

I was asking Letxa to confirm whether he agreed with Reynolds that we should all shut up if we didn't want to end up in Guantanamo or whether he agreed with himself that if we wanted to be taken seriously as human beings we should debate with him (he still has not answered), when Superliberal opened dialogue again, as if an answer weren't necessary on whether we were obliged to shut up or obliged to debate.

I tried to get Superliberal playing with the team again, and he briefly did, but ultimately he couldn't resist the temptation of doing his own thing, and he tried to appeal to Reynold's nobler instincts:



You, Mr. Reynolds, are praying on the fears of people by doing what you are doing. The people in here are not represented by the kooks you seem to be so attentive to. The people in here, as well i would say MOST who follow this, are concerned citizens. What is your reasoning for producing these threats when in fact none of these people have crossed the line in the form you speak?


This lack of co-ordination among the good guys immediately impressed itself on Gaiacomm, so, along with the FBI irregular forces he has at his disposal, he came rushing to our assistance, like it or not.

That's how we ended up in the insane asylum.

So now here we we are all back in the game again. Reynolds threatening us with Guantanamo if we open our mouths, Letxa threatening us with his moral disapproval if we do NOT open our mouths, and talk about exactly what he wants to talk about and nothing more or less, and the other bunkie puppies yapping around their and our heels.

As I said, SmT, let's go to Megasprayer.

You yourself suggested it. You wrote: "I probably will seek other forums more that the effort that we put in has more chance of doing positive things. I may vist MegaSprayer (just to tip off the Feds that ALREADY monitor THIS conversation I GUARANTEE YOU. All that talk about alerting the FBI was so comical. Surely 'Gaicomm' you know better. Please don't reply with 50 pages of spam. It only seeks to BURY any discussion of climate modification and I'm SURE you don't want that.?"

(end quote from Lynn George)

Can Reynolds really accuse us of being afraid of debate after the threats he has issued.

Can you, Reynolds?

[whitemajikman]

HALVA YOU SOUND LIKE A BEAT AND BROKEN MAN.......

WHATS UP.....? WITH THAT.....?

[whitemajikman]

THE PROBLEM HALVA IS THAT YOU ARE AFRAID .......

TO ADMIT DEFEAT......

WHEN CLEARLY YOUR COLLEAGUES ARE GRASPING AT STRAWS........

[lynn george]

1- In what time span do we have the trails shown forming ? SuperLiberal or whomever posted the original, do you have access to pictures showing the same area with say 8, 24, 36, 48hr time lapse. In other words were there just as many trails 12 hours ago from when the image was made? How about 24 hours before? How about after? Are these sequences available to the public?

I don't know, do you have any? I would guess this picture was taken and preserved because the contrails themselves were interesting. Real scientists don't have any doubts as to where they come from so time-lapse photos of the sky earlier in the day very well may not have been taken or, if taken, may not have been preserved. This isn't suspicious. In fact, it pretty much confirms that you are barking up the wrong tree since no real scientist is concerned about where contrails come from because we know where they come from.


SmT-Not true. Actually if you remember Many many REAL scientists are VERY concerned about the aerosols being left by planes. But then you know that. You're not being genuine.





2-Also, looking at the fight paths as evidenced by the trails what can we say about them? I would expect trails perhaps in a radial fashion of some sort indicating from where or to where these planes are headed. I have begun looking on a map of Georgia and Florida and trying to place activity such as might be around Atlanta or the Northern and central parts of Florida.

That will be an exercise in futility and even you should recognize that.

1. The wind is blowing the contrails east. Extending the contrails you see in either direction almost certainly won't lead you to any airport since the contrails have already been blown dozens or hundreds of miles east.


SmT- Not exactly true as to the last part of that. Most like the ones along the coast and over Florida appear not to ahve moved significantly at all. look at their spacing. I think we can quite clearly see in which directions the trails are aimed and many are quite evenly placed in many cases the trails appeared to be very stationary at the time of the picture other than where they are doing EXACTLY as I said diffusing together in the section that appears hazy.



2. To compensate for the wind you'd have to know 1) When the contrail was formed. 2) The altitude of the contrail (to investigate the wind speed at that altitude) and with that 3) determine the wind speed. Of those 3 pieces of information that would be needed to get an even approximate idea of where the contrail originally formed, we don't know a single one of them.

SmT- I think we can tell where the wind has fused the trails together and where they are still intact and how these in Florida don't appear to have drifted in ,othe wise the wind would have fused them also. Look at the ones at an angle down the west side of Florida. Are you claiming those "drifted in" intact. How can you prove any of these have really moved at all. I think most that are not fused probably are quite close to where they were formed. Again having images 12, 24 etc. hours would show this. Your suggestion that images like this wouldn't have been made is completely fabricated. Most likely they would have been made. Where were you when ALL of these discussions were going on,on how much researchers have also been focusing on the huge effects of 'contrails' and other aersol trails.


3. Even if you could determine approximately where the contrail was when it formed it is far from certain that it'd be aimed directly at an airport either at its source or destination. Planes don't fly in straight lines all the time. Especially after takeoff or on approach they can easily deviate dozens of miles or more before intersecting a flight route which they take towards their destination.

SmT- I still think this picture can tell us alot. I would like to see the befores and afters.



4. You aren't going to see "radials" of contrails because contrails won't be formed the moment planes take off from the airport. By the time they get to contrail atmospheric conditions they will usually be far from the airport and probably will have already turned such that the contrail most definitely will not be pointing towards the departure airport.

SmT- I still think if one studies the images and we have the others we might be able to well see trajectory.





That's the beauty of the situation. Every real scientist knows it's water vapor.

SmT- Really??? Is that the beauty of the sitiuation after all? That's quite a claim you make. How is it that you know that very scientist knows this. Don't you recall making this comment before and how you were asked if you had interviewed every "real" scientist. I make a reasonably good living analyzing all sorts of samples, am quite familiar with following protocols, GLP's, EPA< FDA< TSCA< OECD guidelines, I can do a great extraction, run HPLC equipment, do carbon analysis, you name it I consider myself "real" enough. And I don't know it's ONLY water vapor. Oh you left that word ONLY out. Did you mean ONLY water vapor?


Formation of contrails have been observed since WWII. It's not rocket science.

SmT-Attempting to Own The Weather has produced decades of research, hundreds of scientific papers, and now it seems is being conducted on an almsot daily basis.

If you want to suggest that it is anything other than water vapor I'm afraid you're going to have to prove it, not the other way around. That's just the way science works.


SmT- No, actually as I said I don't have to prove anything more than you do. You're free to accept or deny as you like. So is all the rest of The World. And more people are finding out every day. You can't stop them. They're going to all eventually find out. And that's only right.Keep lookin up. And I don't know if you're religous, but consider prayer. Maybe The Spirit will guide you too if you lose the big ego. WE';re all really one. You'll figure it out.

SmT

[whitemajikman]

WE';re all really one. You'll figure it out.


QUOTES OF A CHEMTRAIL CULTIST.....

:lol:

[halva]

綠色和平成員須黎軍登上了遠洋船"極地曙光號"以直接的行動要求巴西政府不要批准種植基因改造大豆。行動於4月20日在巴西展開。

我們為什麼要求巴西不要種植基因改造大豆？消費者要吃不受基因改造污染的食物，必需有大豆主產國供應非基因 改造大豆。現在，其他的大豆主產國家（美國和阿根廷）已經大量種植基因改造大豆，巴西是全世界第二大的大豆 生產國家，如果也批准種植基因改造大豆，我們要吃上一口不受基因改造污染的食物，將會變得更為 困難！

另外一個重要原因是中國每年從巴西進口大量大豆。眾所周知，中國是大豆的故鄉，擁有全世界最豐富的大豆遺傳 資源，綠色和平和中國的專家擔心大量進口基因改造大豆有可能污染中國的大豆及大豆遺傳資源。如果巴西批准種 植基因改造大豆，將大大增加中國大豆受污染的風險！

巴西過去一直禁止種植基因改造大豆，但去年卻批准臨時種植。可以說，巴西正處於是否正式批准基因改造大豆的 十字路口。

在這關鍵時候，綠色和平的成員須黎軍登上了"極地曙光號"，以直接的行動要求巴西政府不要批准種植基因改造大豆。我們呼籲更多人關注他的行動，支援"極地曙光號"防止基因改造作物擴散的行動，因為我們需要從源頭上減少中國大豆受到污染的威脅，因為這個世界需要更多非基 因改造的淨土！

綠色和平在行動：中國男孩海上日記

4月8日
…… 看到了是她，就是她，跟照片裡的一樣，但更大、更漂亮。我興奮地登上船去，把行李脫放在甲板上，與來歡迎我 們的船員男的握手、女的親吻，簡短的自我介紹 然後抱著相機上竄下跳，把甲板上的一切都看了個夠，"這是我們的船，我們綠色和平自己的船！"我幾乎要哭了。

4月20日
… … 這就是我第一次親身進行的綠色和平非暴力直接行動，簡單、快捷而又友好，但卻是經過精心策劃、艱苦訓練和密 切配合才完成的。……我們要表達的資訊：基因改造生物需要標識，公眾有權作出知情選擇，公眾有權對 基因改造說不，也必須保護我們的食物和生態系統不受基因污染。

須黎軍介紹
1979年出生於山水甲天下的桂林，並在這裡長大；98年保送廈門大學生命科學學院學習生物學；99年暑期 參加第四屆全國大學生綠色營；2000年9月與志同道合的幾位同學共同創辦廈門大學綠野協會（一個熱愛自然 、保護環境的大學生社團）；畢業後於2002年進入珍古道爾研究會下的根與芽環境教育專案北京辦公室工作， 根與芽是一個全球性的青少年環境與人道主義教育專案；2003年8月加入綠色和平，從事基因改造生物和可持 續農業專案方面的工作。

喜歡自然以及中國的傳統知識和文化，愛好很廣泛，包括觀鳥、認植物、拉二胡、學習中醫等等。在知道將參與綠 色和平"極地曙光號"的直接行動時，須須激動地說："這是我一直的夢想呀！"

"極地曙光號"介紹
"極地曙光號"以前是一艘捕獵海豹船，綠色和平曾經阻攔這艘船給法國運送在南極建設飛機號道的設備，因為修建這條跑道會破 壞企鵝的棲息地。綠色和平於1995年購買這艘船，將它改裝為破冰船，並名為"極地曙光號"。

"極地曙光號"第一次行動就是著名的事件，它成功地阻止了殼牌石油公司將報廢的鑽井平臺"沈入北海。在 年，"極地曙光號"成為人類歷史上首度成功環繞南極 航行的船，但是這次航程之所以成功，是因為原來連接 與南極大陸的米厚的大冰塊因氣候變化而崩塌。自此，這艘破冰船多次協助綠色和平見證氣候變化對人類和動物生 存家園的破壞。

"極地曙光號"的最新任務是在巴西展開反對基因改造大豆的行動。


相關連結

須黎軍船上日記
保護大豆的故鄉－中國
保護大豆故鄉 共建生物安全長城 (簡體)
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[gaiacomm]

Halva and others have done an outstanding job in informing others of the chemtrail problem and others have done an outstanding job in stirring the mud in the water with a twig!

All of you have made your point quite clear that chemtrails are a fantasy!
So why bother to continue this assault on those that wish to be left alone.

You follow these people like the black plague! You are just a nusance to the ones that wish you to go away and hide.

But you all will presist until someone goes to jail or is exposed on some cable channel to be picked up by a national network....or even international.

There are forces at work here that go beyond this forum of wantabe activists and debunkers.

You all are quick to blame others and point fingers at those who wish to know ,when in fact in your own hearts you wish it were not true and if it were, then you know that you were wrong.

Then the denial sets in and you deflect your anger and fear at others to make you feel more secure.

You have no more control over anything than the next person because you feel that you cannot make a difference so why not shout at everyone else because you feel so alone and so helpless to change the world around you...and if you could you would!

You know you cannot change your government or the business concerns that control you! You pay taxes and pay high gas prices because you have to...because you will not sacrifice without. You have become co-dependent on the very system that controls your life.

All is left is the internet and what you do each day in your life... but you are a small piece of clay that can be molded and used by others to control your destiny.

Oh yes you will counter this statement with insult but you can do nothing to stop me! You know as long as the internet exists you will have a place in cyberspace.

The government will always control you and poison your mind, land, air, food, and water and you can and will do nothing about it because you are dependent on the "things" you think you need!

So continue to post your rantings of madness because in space no body can hear you scream!

[halva]

SmT if you wish in your spirit of Christian charity to continue the debate with the debunkers, with assistance from Gaiacomm, God bless you and good luck to you.

[halva]

And Gaiacomm, keep SmT well briefed on your progress with the litigation, and the symposium.

[letxa2000]

SmT- No, actually as I said I don't have to prove anything more than you do. You're free to accept or deny as you like.

Sure, you're free to believe anything you like. But if you want to know why you don't hear about chemtrails in the mainstream media or in peer-reviewed scientific literature (and never will), it's because no-one has a shred of real proof to support the claims. It's pure speculation. And you and your friends are free to believe whatever you want, but don't be surprised when people write off your beliefs as silly conspiracy theory and make fun of non-scientific conclusions and, from time to time, make fun of you. Educated people want evidence and as long as you don't have any you're not going to attract the "best and brightest" to your belief system.

[whitemajikman]

Once again folk's....... Th Debunker's have rid another forum of "The Chemmie Menace"...........In doing so,we have made it quite clear to the likes of the chemtrail cult member's that their tactic's of subverting whole forum's to propagate their hoax...........Is not acceptable especially in this day and age of science,logic and reasoning......


Thanks to all who have participated in making this another CHEMMIE free board.....

[gaiacomm]

Once again folk's....... Th Debunker's have rid another forum of "The Chemmie Menace"...........In doing so,we have made it quite clear to the likes of the chemtrail cult member's that their tactic's of subverting whole forum's to propagate their hoax...........Is not acceptable especially in this day and age of science,logic and reasoning......


Thanks to all who have participated in making this another CHEMMIE free board.....



And thanks to the ones that will continue the struggle to tell the truth from their point of view!

[gaiacomm]

Halva and others have done an outstanding job in informing others of the chemtrail problem and others have done an outstanding job in stirring the mud in the water with a twig!

All of you have made your point quite clear that chemtrails are a fantasy!
So why bother to continue this assault on those that wish to be left alone.

You follow these people like the black plague! You are just a nusance to the ones that wish you to go away and hide.

But you all will presist until someone goes to jail or is exposed on some cable channel to be picked up by a national network....or even international.

There are forces at work here that go beyond this forum of wantabe activists and debunkers.

You all are quick to blame others and point fingers at those who wish to know ,when in fact in your own hearts you wish it were not true and if it were, then you know that you were wrong.

Then the denial sets in and you deflect your anger and fear at others to make you feel more secure.

You have no more control over anything than the next person because you feel that you cannot make a difference so why not shout at everyone else because you feel so alone and so helpless to change the world around you...and if you could you would!

You know you cannot change your government or the business concerns that control you! You pay taxes and pay high gas prices because you have to...because you will not sacrifice without. You have become co-dependent on the very system that controls your life.

All is left is the internet and what you do each day in your life... but you are a small piece of clay that can be molded and used by others to control your destiny.

Oh yes you will counter this statement with insult but you can do nothing to stop me! You know as long as the internet exists you will have a place in cyberspace.

The government will always control you and poison your mind, land, air, food, and water and you can and will do nothing about it because you are dependent on the "things" you think you need!

So continue to post your rantings of madness because in space no body can hear you scream!

[whitemajikman]

Gaiacomm take your fatalism.......

somewhere else where you have like-minded cult members who will listen to your rant's....

this is now a CHEMMIE FREE ZONE......

You lost the minute you reared your ugly head and made me part of the equasion.......

and now you are all about to find out why............

Your litigation doesn't scare me.....

Nor do your Idle threat's.......

in fact you the liar are nothing to fear at all because your entire existence is one big lie........

Please tell these fine folk's how you have manipulated and connived your way into the chemtrail hoax by telling people you are something that you are not.......

Please tell them how you use lies and deception to keep propagating an internet hoax.....?

Please tell them about you mental disorder's......

Please tell them.......

How you lost this forum when you could not answer even the most basic of question's........

Bye.....Gaiacomm

The battle was over ....and won

when you first reared your ugly head.......

now get over it.....

and be a man.......

[whitemajikman]

And thanks to the ones that will continue the struggle to tell the truth from their point of view



Gaiacomm the problem with your point of view is that it is based upon your own fears and insecurities......

and not based upon logic and reasoning....

not to mention one Iota of scientific evidence....

in fact your entire cult is based upon "looking up"........

is observation now considered the be all.......end all to ....scientific investigation.....

you all call yourselves researcher's....

but so far your research has proved benign......

because you dont use science and reason.....

you use paranoia and deception........

which is no substitute for science.......

and can lead to more of your conspiranoia.

[jayreynolds]

hee-hee-hee.

I see mech has erased halva's last posting at CTC, which issued my cease and desist order. He replaced it with an anti-communist rant!

Don't believe me? Click on halva's profile, where his last post is supposed to read- "Debunker Terms of Debate".
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/cgi-bin/ubbmisc.cgi?action=getbio&UserName=halva

You'll not find that posting anywhere in the forum called "Other Trails", not anymore.
If you click on the link it'll take you to:
"Commie China's UN 'Peacekeeping' School"
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/002217.html

Shows us that the uber-god Mech can delete or change any damn thing he wants to change, make anything disappear, reword anything, retitle anything, or create a posting for anybody. In short, the has the ultimate power over Wayne Hall, and there isn't a damn thing halva can do about it.
Halva is a has-been that never-was!
I predict that Wayne will not see New Years at CTC, he will be banned by that time, or voluntarily quit.

Oh, and BTW, giacom still won't be allowed to post at Megasprayer.

[halva]

Oh, and BTW, giacom still won't be allowed to post at Megasprayer.

Neither will you.

Thank you for your invaluable assistance in preparing this document.

"Strategies against Climate Change" is to be published in Greece's best-known political ecology magazine "Oikotopia".

WH

p.s. 綠色和平成員須黎軍登上了遠洋船"極地曙光號"以直接的行動要求巴西政府不要批准種植基因改造大豆。行動於4月20日在巴西展開。

我們為什麼要求巴西不要種植基因改造大豆？消費者要吃不受基因改造污染的食物，必需有大豆主產國供應非基因 改造大豆。現在，其他的大豆主產國家（美國和阿根廷）已經大量種植基因改造大豆，巴西是全世界第二大的大豆 生產國家，如果也批准種植基因改造大豆，我們要吃上一口不受基因改造污染的食物，將會變得更為 困難！

另外一個重要原因是中國每年從巴西進口大量大豆。眾所周知，中國是大豆的故鄉，擁有全世界最豐富的大豆遺傳 資源，綠色和平和中國的專家擔心大量進口基因改造大豆有可能污染中國的大豆及大豆遺傳資源。如果巴西批准種 植基因改造大豆，將大大增加中國大豆受污染的風險！

巴西過去一直禁止種植基因改造大豆，但去年卻批准臨時種植。可以說，巴西正處於是否正式批准基因改造大豆的 十字路口。

在這關鍵時候，綠色和平的成員須黎軍登上了"極地曙光號"，以直接的行動要求巴西政府不要批准種植基因改造大豆。我們呼籲更多人關注他的行動，支援"極地曙光號"防止基因改造作物擴散的行動，因為我們需要從源頭上減少中國大豆受到污染的威脅，因為這個世界需要更多非基 因改造的淨土！

綠色和平在行動：中國男孩海上日記

4月8日
…… 看到了是她，就是她，跟照片裡的一樣，但更大、更漂亮。我興奮地登上船去，把行李脫放在甲板上，與來歡迎我 們的船員男的握手、女的親吻，簡短的自我介紹 然後抱著相機上竄下跳，把甲板上的一切都看了個夠，"這是我們的船，我們綠色和平自己的船！"我幾乎要哭了。

4月20日
… … 這就是我第一次親身進行的綠色和平非暴力直接行動，簡單、快捷而又友好，但卻是經過精心策劃、艱苦訓練和密 切配合才完成的。……我們要表達的資訊：基因改造生物需要標識，公眾有權作出知情選擇，公眾有權對 基因改造說不，也必須保護我們的食物和生態系統不受基因污染。

須黎軍介紹
1979年出生於山水甲天下的桂林，並在這裡長大；98年保送廈門大學生命科學學院學習生物學；99年暑期 參加第四屆全國大學生綠色營；2000年9月與志同道合的幾位同學共同創辦廈門大學綠野協會（一個熱愛自然 、保護環境的大學生社團）；畢業後於2002年進入珍古道爾研究會下的根與芽環境教育專案北京辦公室工作， 根與芽是一個全球性的青少年環境與人道主義教育專案；2003年8月加入綠色和平，從事基因改造生物和可持 續農業專案方面的工作。

喜歡自然以及中國的傳統知識和文化，愛好很廣泛，包括觀鳥、認植物、拉二胡、學習中醫等等。在知道將參與綠 色和平"極地曙光號"的直接行動時，須須激動地說："這是我一直的夢想呀！"

"極地曙光號"介紹
"極地曙光號"以前是一艘捕獵海豹船，綠色和平曾經阻攔這艘船給法國運送在南極建設飛機號道的設備，因為修建這條跑道會破 壞企鵝的棲息地。綠色和平於1995年購買這艘船，將它改裝為破冰船，並名為"極地曙光號"。

"極地曙光號"第一次行動就是著名的事件，它成功地阻止了殼牌石油公司將報廢的鑽井平臺"沈入北海。在 年，"極地曙光號"成為人類歷史上首度成功環繞南極 航行的船，但是這次航程之所以成功，是因為原來連接 與南極大陸的米厚的大冰塊因氣候變化而崩塌。自此，這艘破冰船多次協助綠色和平見證氣候變化對人類和動物生 存家園的破壞。

"極地曙光號"的最新任務是在巴西展開反對基因改造大豆的行動。


相關連結

須黎軍船上日記
保護大豆的故鄉－中國
保護大豆故鄉 共建生物安全長城 (簡體)
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[gaiacomm]

Chemtrails is a phenomenon that apparently has been researched to some degree without the full support from the scientific academia. Now that is a problem because generally people believe what the so-called authorities have to say when it comes to discovery of something new and different.

Now learned scholars have been called upon to give credit to ideas of discovery or to repudiate them into a black hole.

Lets see there were those educated men and women who insisted that the world was the center of the universe, men were created by god in his image, the earth was of a flat surface, dragons and sea creatures lived in the oceans and caves of the earth, Jesus could heal the sick and even rise from the dead after 3 days, an atom can be split in two, mirrors could be made to focus the heavens, machines could fly as birds, machines could dive underwater, electrons could be controlled to give us sound, electric power, AC, wireless, radar, images on paper, light in glass, people would be burned because of their gifts of wisdom, the church was always right, fungus could cure some diseases, man could travel to the moon, ufo’s do not exist, global warming is unreal, men and women are free, compass was thought of for navigation, oil could be broken into different chemicals to use, rocks could be turned into metals, radio tubes into circuits, the internet, running water, seawater into fresh, fire made from friction, rubber made into tires, heart surgery, pda’s and laptops, pollution from cars and plants, plants give O2, Atlantis the island existed, talking pictures…movies, jet aircraft, bottled water, religious difference, democracy, republic order, Christopher Columbus and other explorers, Napoleon, Hannibal, Roman empire, and the Great United States of America!

So the so-called chemtrail cultist have not lost or gone away. The beauty of the Internet is that shop can be setup anytime anyplace. A battle lost does not mean the war is over or that that battle lost to them means defeat!

This chemtrail issue will outlast all of us. And soon an answer will be found and published as soon as a way is found to minimize the fallout. But in the end some closure will be found and not by the ranting of a few that have nothing better to do with them. They are the ones that make others powerful and rich. And all they do is cry in the wind and wish upon a star that they could have the same freedoms…. but that would mean that they have to leave their land of OZ and journey to the world of the Giants!

[whitemajikman]

So .....when you run what gaiacomm just said ........

thru the translator.....

what he is saying is that he lost this battle.....

and he is bitter about it.....

so he will now go and try and subvert other forum's with his chemmie cult ranting's.......

Because his motto is that just because there is no sucker's on this board who would take his hoax seriously......

doesn't mean their are not many still out their who are a bit on the warped side .........that WILL fall for his hoax.......


Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 12:21 pm Post subject: chemtrails fact or fiction!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chemtrails is a phenomenon that apparently has been researched to some degree without the full support from the scientific academia. Now that is a problem because generally people believe what the so-called authorities have to say when it comes to discovery of something new and different.

Now learned scholars have been called upon to give credit to ideas of discovery or to repudiate them into a black hole.

Lets see there were those educated men and women who insisted that the world was the center of the universe, men were created by god in his image, the earth was of a flat surface, dragons and sea creatures lived in the oceans and caves of the earth, Jesus could heal the sick and even rise from the dead after 3 days, an atom can be split in two, mirrors could be made to focus the heavens, machines could fly as birds, machines could dive underwater, electrons could be controlled to give us sound, electric power, AC, wireless, radar, images on paper, light in glass, people would be burned because of their gifts of wisdom, the church was always right, fungus could cure some diseases, man could travel to the moon, ufo’s do not exist, global warming is unreal, men and women are free, compass was thought of for navigation, oil could be broken into different chemicals to use, rocks could be turned into metals, radio tubes into circuits, the internet, running water, seawater into fresh, fire made from friction, rubber made into tires, heart surgery, pda’s and laptops, pollution from cars and plants, plants give O2, Atlantis the island existed, talking pictures…movies, jet aircraft, bottled water, religious difference, democracy, republic order, Christopher Columbus and other explorers, Napoleon, Hannibal, Roman empire, and the Great United States of America!

So the so-called chemtrail cultist have not lost or gone away. The beauty of the Internet is that shop can be setup anytime anyplace. A battle lost does not mean the war is over or that that battle lost to them means defeat!

This chemtrail issue will outlast all of us. And soon an answer will be found and published as soon as a way is found to minimize the fallout. But in the end some closure will be found and not by the ranting of a few that have nothing better to do with them. They are the ones that make others powerful and rich. And all they do is cry in the wind and wish upon a star that they could have the same freedoms…. but that would mean that they have to leave their land of OZ and journey to the world of the Giants!






Indeed ......

Gaiacomm just like a nasty virus.......huh....?

Also I am glad that you see yourself as the cultist you are ,and that you are not hiding behind your deception..........

[whitemajikman]

AS FOR YOU HALVA......

A LITTLE TONGUE TIED ARE WE........?

[jayreynolds]

giaboob wrote:

"Chemtrails is a phenomenon thet apparently has been researched t'some degree wifout th' full suppo't fum th' scientific academia. Now thet is a problem on account o' junerally varmints believe whut th' so-called autho'ities hafta say when it comes t'discovery of sumpin noo an' diffrunt. Now larned scholars haf been called upon t'give credit t'ideas of discovery o' t'repudiate them into a black hole.

Lets see thar were them ejoocayted min an' wimmen who insisted thet th' wo'ld was th' center of th' unyverse, min were created by god in his image, th' earth was of a flat surface, dragons an' sea creatures lived in th' oceans an' caves of th' earth, Jesus c'd heal th' sick an' even rise fum th' daid af'er 3 days, an atom kin be split in two, mirro's c'd be made t'focus th' hevvins, machines c'd fly as birds, machines c'd dive unnerwater, eleckrons c'd be corntrolled t'give us soun', eleckric power.

AC, wireless, radar, images on paper, light in glass, varmints'd be burned on account o' of their gif's of wisdom, th' church was allus right, fungus c'd cure some diseases, man c'd travel t'th' moon, ufo’s does not exist, global warmin' is unreal, min an' wimmen is free, compass was thunk of fo' navigashun, oil c'd be busted into diffrunt chemicals t'use, rocks c'd be turned into metals, radio tubes into circuits, th' internet, runnin' water, seawater into fresh, fire made fum frickshun, rubber made into tires, heart surgery, pda’s an' lappops, pollushun fum cars an' plants, plants give O2, Atlantis th' islan' existed, talkin' pitchers…movies, jet aircraf', bottled water, religious difference, democracy, republic o'der, Jed Columbus an' other splorers, Napoleon, Hannibal, Roman empire, an' th' Great United States of South Car'lina! Fry mah hide!

So th' so-called chemtrail cultist haf not lost o' gone away. Th' booty of th' Internet is thet shop kin be setup ennytime ennyplace. A battle lost does not mean th' war is on over o' thet thet battle lost t'them means defeat! Fry mah hide!"

[gaiacomm]

Chemtrails is a phenomenon that apparently has been researched to some degree without the full support from the scientific academia. Now that is a problem because generally people believe what the so-called authorities have to say when it comes to discovery of something new and different.

Now learned scholars have been called upon to give credit to ideas of discovery or to repudiate them into a black hole.

Lets see there were those educated men and women who insisted that the world was the center of the universe, men were created by god in his image, the earth was of a flat surface, dragons and sea creatures lived in the oceans and caves of the earth, Jesus could heal the sick and even rise from the dead after 3 days, an atom can be split in two, mirrors could be made to focus the heavens, machines could fly as birds, machines could dive underwater, electrons could be controlled to give us sound, electric power, AC, wireless, radar, images on paper, light in glass, people would be burned because of their gifts of wisdom, the church was always right, fungus could cure some diseases, man could travel to the moon, ufo’s do not exist, global warming is unreal, men and women are free, compass was thought of for navigation, oil could be broken into different chemicals to use, rocks could be turned into metals, radio tubes into circuits, the internet, running water, seawater into fresh, fire made from friction, rubber made into tires, heart surgery, pda’s and laptops, pollution from cars and plants, plants give O2, Atlantis the island existed, talking pictures…movies, jet aircraft, bottled water, religious difference, democracy, republic order, Christopher Columbus and other explorers, Napoleon, Hannibal, Roman empire, and the Great United States of America!

So the so-called chemtrail cultist have not lost or gone away. The beauty of the Internet is that shop can be setup anytime anyplace. A battle lost does not mean the war is over or that that battle lost to them means defeat!

This chemtrail issue will outlast all of us. And soon an answer will be found and published as soon as a way is found to minimize the fallout. But in the end some closure will be found and not by the ranting of a few that have nothing better to do with them. They are the ones that make others powerful and rich. And all they do is cry in the wind and wish upon a star that they could have the same freedoms…. but that would mean that they have to leave their land of OZ and journey to the world of the Giants!

[lynn george]

Aircraft Contrails Click here to view full image (556 kb)



NASA scientists have found that cirrus clouds, formed by contrails from aircraft engine exhaust, are capable of increasing average surface temperatures enough to account for a warming trend in the United States that occurred between 1975 and 1994. According to Patrick Minnis, a senior research scientist at NASA’s Langley Research Center in Hampton, Va., there has been a one percent per decade increase in cirrus cloud cover over the United States, likely due to air traffic. Cirrus clouds exert a warming influence on the surface by allowing most of the Sun’s rays to pass through but then trapping some of the resulting heat emitted by the surface and lower atmosphere. Using a general circulation model, Minnis estimates that cirrus clouds from contrails increased the temperatures of the lower atmosphere by anywhere from 0.36 to 0.54°F per decade. Minnis’s results show good agreement with weather service data, which reveal that the temperature of the surface and lower atmosphere rose by almost 0.5°F per decade between 1975 and 1994.

This enhanced infrared image from the Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS), aboard NASA’s Terra satellite, shows widespread contrails over the southeastern United States during the morning of January 29, 2004. Such satellite data are critical for studying the effects of contrails. The crisscrossing white lines are contrails that form from planes flying in different directions at different altitudes. Each contrail spreads and moves with the wind. Contrails often form over large areas during winter and spring.

For information about why NASA studies contrails, read: Clouds Caused By Aircraft Exhaust May Warm The U.S. Climate.

Image courtesy NASA Langley Research Center


HEY SMT.....


HERE IS OFFICIAL SCIENCE AND LOGIC TELL
US PLEASE WHAT IS INACCURATE ABOUT THIS ARTICLE..........?

COME ON GENIUS.....?


SmT- Thanks for responding like a human. 8) It alwasy makes communication easier and more effective in most cases.

I ask this very question before. I am glad there is at least a couple of posts dealing with SINCERE attempts to pretend to be interested in climate modification.

So how do researchers/bunkers think Minnis' theories stack up against those of Teller, etc. regarding whether putting "cover" into the atmosphere would either warm or cool the Earth. Carnicom also makes this assertion that possibly chemtrails/contrails might actually be warming the Earth. I have noticed though when these trails are put down in such a fashion as I have described before (dozens of jets within hours leaving billowing white trails while normally expected traffic flys through with only contrails or no trails and sky becomes solid white within hours) that the area gets naturally cooler because of the shading effect. In fact as been mentioned so many times before it seems these manuevers regularly come consistently like clockwork with jets coming to "save the day" from getting "abnormally warm" almost every time here above Mid Missouri. I will admit. It works for THAT particular application. And possibly blocking UV too although now right after the rain washed the particulates from the sky the sunburn now seems especially intense here. Even when the "Sky Shield" is up the sun has this intense brightness now that though a subjective experience, seems very real and that perhaps some sun blocking part of the atmosphere is gone. Ozone? As I say this is subjective perhaps some others have noticed this perhaps not. I don't perse "hate" geoengineering programs, in fact and though I am not advocating it, certain days the easily discernable "aerosol" clouds from "human activity" DO make it more comfortable, my concern is that mankind may become DEPENDENT on them and that should be a worry to EVERYONE and that includes those who feel their 'job' is to try and "debunk". And also the health effects? And still, which is a big concern, the loss of sunlight. They spray these things so thick often we see examples of some of the "ChemClouds" pictured on the new geoengineering stamps. Here is a link to an article researchers might find interesting where Keb Caldeira from Lawrence Livermore is talking about "rumors" of the Bush Administration finally letting the public in on more of what is really happening to our planet and what we are doing to try and "fix" it. This hope never materialized though it is intersting to note Caldeira is quoted as saying it would be "political suicide". I am not sure I agree but instead it would be nice to see SOME LEADER stand up and REALLY address the issues of what the Earths problems are now and what is being done.Noone should have to hide or be ashamed of their energy policy. :roll:


http://www.columbusalive.com/2001/20011206/120601/12060101.html

SmT

[lynn george]

[quote=lynn george]All,
If researchers give in for any lengthy time to bunkie rambling and topic switching they fall into the exact snare set by the bunkies, which is simply to disrupt 'chemtrail'/geoengineering and climate engineering research and discussion.

I agree SmT. This is why I have been encouraging you, Footsoldier and the other people making valuable postings here to adjourn to Megasprayer, to which I would also go, but at the same time I would remain here alone to spam everything the debunkers put up.



I had to wade through four pages of what sounded like insane asylum people arguing over who was the smartest, to get to anything REMOTELY resembling anything to do with climate engineering. RESEARCHERS you are WASTING your time feeding the bunkies here.

Prior to this insane asylum interlude the debunkers were on the defensive. Reynolds was being called upon to speculate on what would happen if Lance Haubrick turned up at Dr. Zerefos' symposium claiming to be Dr. Ben-Hur, but Jay was unwilling to do this, because of his [like all our] uncertainty about what really is going to happen on that front, on which however he and the other debunkers had been merrily exercising their fantasies without feeling any need to check them against reality, or probability.

So instead he issued a pronunciamento enjoining silence on 'chemmies' if we didn't want to end up in Guantanamo.


A notice to all "chemtrail" cult promoters:

CEASE AND DESIST PROMOTING THE "CHEMTRAIL" HOAX

I will personally do my best to encourage state and Federal prosecution for as many "chemtrail" promoters as I can. I will recommend they be tried under federal RICO and state criminal syndicalism laws if US citizens, and as enemy combatants if non-US.


This opened an interesting contradiction between him, enjoining silence, and Letxa, condemning silence and inviting debate (as long as it was debate about what HE wanted to debate, and as long as he wasn't asked questions he couldn't answer).

I was asking Letxa to confirm whether he agreed with Reynolds that we should all shut up if we didn't want to end up in Guantanamo or whether he agreed with himself that if we wanted to be taken seriously as human beings we should debate with him (he still has not answered), when Superliberal opened dialogue again, as if an answer weren't necessary on whether we were obliged to shut up or obliged to debate.

I tried to get Superliberal playing with the team again, and he briefly did, but ultimately he couldn't resist the temptation of doing his own thing, and he tried to appeal to Reynold's nobler instincts:



You, Mr. Reynolds, are praying on the fears of people by doing what you are doing. The people in here are not represented by the kooks you seem to be so attentive to. The people in here, as well i would say MOST who follow this, are concerned citizens. What is your reasoning for producing these threats when in fact none of these people have crossed the line in the form you speak?


This lack of co-ordination among the good guys immediately impressed itself on Gaiacomm, so, along with the FBI irregular forces he has at his disposal, he came rushing to our assistance, like it or not.

That's how we ended up in the insane asylum.

So now here we we are all back in the game again. Reynolds threatening us with Guantanamo if we open our mouths, Letxa threatening us with his moral disapproval if we do NOT open our mouths, and talk about exactly what he wants to talk about and nothing more or less, and the other bunkie puppies yapping around their and our heels.

As I said, SmT, let's go to Megasprayer.

SmT- Indeed, bunkie "yapping" and "snapping" sums it up. One would think perhaps that maybe the noise level would diminish and your suggestion about moving toward something more positive might be taken seriously by the Administration. Unfortunately the offical stance will not allow it. Too bad"bunkieism" only drives everyone into the mud. Yep I'll check out MegaSprayer though I may have yet a few posts left here.

War is Peace.

Freedom is Slavery.

Ignorance is Strength.-Orwell


For how long?
SmT_______________________________________________

Let's deal openly and honestly with what is happening. One is a CITIZEN before one is a pawn.

[letxa2000]

SMT: So how do researchers/bunkers think Minnis' theories stack up against those of Teller, etc. regarding whether putting "cover" into the atmosphere would either warm or cool the Earth.

You constantly post or comment on articles that talk about what may or may not be valid theories and act like that gives us some reason to think that it is already happening on a wide scale. People point to the Owning the Weather by 2025 (http://www.letxa.com/issue_2025.php) document and assume that the military is already modifying the weather. They point to the "Pentagon global warming" document and assume that that proves that global warming is a more significant threat than terrorism. They point to some odd "HAARP-like patents" and assume that HAARP is some high-technology weapon (even though HAARP is significantly different than what is described in the patents I've seen). You post these articles regarding ideas for geoengineering and say it is already happening in the form of "chemtrails." Do you understand that just because there are theories about this doesn't mean that millions of contrails are actually "chemtrails?"

At this point I have to ask, as silly and insulting as the question may sound: Do you understand the difference between theory and reality?


I have noticed though when these trails are put down in such a fashion as I have described before...that the area gets naturally cooler because of the shading effect.

Clouds tend to have that affect. Contrails are effectively clouds. So it is not surprising that when contrails spread out in certain atmospheric conditions that they create clouds that, as you say, create a shade effect and lower the temperature. That can and is done with simple water vapor. What evidence do you have that there is something in the contrails intentionally put there or that the contrails are someting other than about 99% water vapor?

[lynn george]

Aircraft Contrails Click here to view full image (556 kb)



NASA scientists have found that cirrus clouds, formed by contrails from aircraft engine exhaust, are capable of increasing average surface temperatures enough to account for a warming trend in the United States that occurred between 1975 and 1994. According to Patrick Minnis, a senior research scientist at NASA’s Langley Research Center in Hampton, Va., there has been a one percent per decade increase in cirrus cloud cover over the United States, likely due to air traffic. Cirrus clouds exert a warming influence on the surface by allowing most of the Sun’s rays to pass through but then trapping some of the resulting heat emitted by the surface and lower atmosphere. Using a general circulation model, Minnis estimates that cirrus clouds from contrails increased the temperatures of the lower atmosphere by anywhere from 0.36 to 0.54°F per decade. Minnis’s results show good agreement with weather service data, which reveal that the temperature of the surface and lower atmosphere rose by almost 0.5°F per decade between 1975 and 1994.

This enhanced infrared image from the Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS), aboard NASA’s Terra satellite, shows widespread contrails over the southeastern United States during the morning of January 29, 2004. Such satellite data are critical for studying the effects of contrails. The crisscrossing white lines are contrails that form from planes flying in different directions at different altitudes. Each contrail spreads and moves with the wind. Contrails often form over large areas during winter and spring.

For information about why NASA studies contrails, read: Clouds Caused By Aircraft Exhaust May Warm The U.S. Climate.

Image courtesy NASA Langley Research Center


HEY SMT.....


HERE IS OFFICIAL SCIENCE AND LOGIC TELL
US PLEASE WHAT IS INACCURATE ABOUT THIS ARTICLE..........?

COME ON GENIUS.....?


SmT- Thanks for responding like a human. 8) It alwasy makes communication easier and more effective in most cases.

I ask this very question before. I am glad there is at least a couple of posts dealing with SINCERE attempts to pretend to be interested in climate modification.

So how do researchers/bunkers think Minnis' theories stack up against those of Teller, etc. regarding whether putting "cover" into the atmosphere would either warm or cool the Earth. Carnicom also makes this assertion that possibly chemtrails/contrails might actually be warming the Earth. I have noticed though when these trails are put down in such a fashion as I have described before (dozens of jets within hours leaving billowing white trails while normally expected traffic flys through with only contrails or no trails and sky becomes solid white within hours) that the area gets naturally cooler because of the shading effect. In fact as been mentioned so many times before it seems these manuevers regularly come consistently like clockwork with jets coming to "save the day" from getting "abnormally warm" almost every time here above Mid Missouri. I will admit. It works for THAT particular application. And possibly blocking UV too although now right after the rain washed the particulates from the sky the sunburn now seems especially intense here. Even when the "Sky Shield" is up the sun has this intense brightness now that though a subjective experience, seems very real and that perhaps some sun blocking part of the atmosphere is gone. Ozone? As I say this is subjective perhaps some others have noticed this perhaps not. I don't perse "hate" geoengineering programs, in fact and though I am not advocating it, certain days the easily discernable "aerosol" clouds from "human activity" DO make it more comfortable, my concern is that mankind may become DEPENDENT on them and that should be a worry to EVERYONE and that includes those who feel their 'job' is to try and "debunk". And also the health effects? And still, which is a big concern, the loss of sunlight. They spray these things so thick often we see examples of some of the "ChemClouds" pictured on the new geoengineering stamps. Here is a link to an article researchers might find interesting where Keb Caldeira from Lawrence Livermore is talking about "rumors" of the Bush Administration finally letting the public in on more of what is really happening to our planet and what we are doing to try and "fix" it. This hope never materialized though it is intersting to note Caldeira is quoted as saying it would be "political suicide". I am not sure I agree but instead it would be nice to see SOME LEADER stand up and REALLY address the issues of what the Earths problems are now and what is being done.Noone should have to hide or be ashamed of their energy policy. :roll:

I might ad a disclaimer some of the limitations on contrails could easily be disputed but bunkies,try for ONCE to focus on the LOG of the situation not the speck. And any researcher thought welcome too.

http://www.columbusalive.com/2001/20011206/120601/12060101.html

SmT

[letxa2000]

letxa, condemning silence and inviting debate (as long as it was debate about what HE wanted to debate, and as long as he wasn't asked questions he couldn't answer).

Just to quickly respond (as much as I'd like to completely ignore this silly bickering on all sides):

I have never been asked a question (by chemtrail believers) that I couldn't answer--when I don't know the answer, I find it. In this thread I finally gave up on Halva when it was clear he was blowing off my questions completely. Since we were in a "you answer one question and I'll answer one question" format I felt it unreasonable to make further efforts to answer his question when it was clear he was making no effort to answer mine.

As for discussing other topics, feel free. But I feel our point of contention is chemtrails. You can post all the theoretical articles on geoengineering that you want and I'm not going to argue because I have nothing to say about them, neither for or against. They are, by their very nature, theoretical and can't be shown categorically to be right or wrong until they're tried (although some can be shown to be prohibitively expensive or impossible logistically). I also don't have a position on whether geoengineering would be a good or bad thing so I can't even get into a debate about whether or not it's a good idea.

So I will always come back to chemtrails because the belief that such a beast currently exists at any widespread level simply isn't based in any fact and that is what I take issue with. I assume my interest in debating you people will evaporate when 1) chemtrail believers recognize that there is currently no evidence of a widespread "chemtrail/spray" program or 2) chemtrail believers provide real, viable, and verifiable evidence to support the clams that such a chemtrail/spray program exists.

[halva]

Once again folk's....... Th Debunker's have rid another forum of "The Chemmie Menace"...........In doing so,we have made it quite clear to the likes of the chemtrail cult member's that their tactic's of subverting whole forum's to propagate their hoax...........Is not acceptable especially in this day and age of science,logic and reasoning......


Thanks to all who have participated in making this another CHEMMIE free board.....

[halva]

綠色和平成員須黎軍登上了遠洋船"極地曙光號"以直接的行動要求巴西政府不要批准種植基因改造大豆。行動於4月20日在巴西展開。

我們為什麼要求巴西不要種植基因改造大豆？消費者要吃不受基因改造污染的食物，必需有大豆主產國供應非基因 改造大豆。現在，其他的大豆主產國家（美國和阿根廷）已經大量種植基因改造大豆，巴西是全世界第二大的大豆 生產國家，如果也批准種植基因改造大豆，我們要吃上一口不受基因改造污染的食物，將會變得更為 困難！

另外一個重要原因是中國每年從巴西進口大量大豆。眾所周知，中國是大豆的故鄉，擁有全世界最豐富的大豆遺傳 資源，綠色和平和中國的專家擔心大量進口基因改造大豆有可能污染中國的大豆及大豆遺傳資源。如果巴西批准種 植基因改造大豆，將大大增加中國大豆受污染的風險！

巴西過去一直禁止種植基因改造大豆，但去年卻批准臨時種植。可以說，巴西正處於是否正式批准基因改造大豆的 十字路口。

在這關鍵時候，綠色和平的成員須黎軍登上了"極地曙光號"，以直接的行動要求巴西政府不要批准種植基因改造大豆。我們呼籲更多人關注他的行動，支援"極地曙光號"防止基因改造作物擴散的行動，因為我們需要從源頭上減少中國大豆受到污染的威脅，因為這個世界需要更多非基 因改造的淨土！

綠色和平在行動：中國男孩海上日記

4月8日
…… 看到了是她，就是她，跟照片裡的一樣，但更大、更漂亮。我興奮地登上船去，把行李脫放在甲板上，與來歡迎我 們的船員男的握手、女的親吻，簡短的自我介紹 然後抱著相機上竄下跳，把甲板上的一切都看了個夠，"這是我們的船，我們綠色和平自己的船！"我幾乎要哭了。

4月20日
… … 這就是我第一次親身進行的綠色和平非暴力直接行動，簡單、快捷而又友好，但卻是經過精心策劃、艱苦訓練和密 切配合才完成的。……我們要表達的資訊：基因改造生物需要標識，公眾有權作出知情選擇，公眾有權對 基因改造說不，也必須保護我們的食物和生態系統不受基因污染。

須黎軍介紹
1979年出生於山水甲天下的桂林，並在這裡長大；98年保送廈門大學生命科學學院學習生物學；99年暑期 參加第四屆全國大學生綠色營；2000年9月與志同道合的幾位同學共同創辦廈門大學綠野協會（一個熱愛自然 、保護環境的大學生社團）；畢業後於2002年進入珍古道爾研究會下的根與芽環境教育專案北京辦公室工作， 根與芽是一個全球性的青少年環境與人道主義教育專案；2003年8月加入綠色和平，從事基因改造生物和可持 續農業專案方面的工作。

喜歡自然以及中國的傳統知識和文化，愛好很廣泛，包括觀鳥、認植物、拉二胡、學習中醫等等。在知道將參與綠 色和平"極地曙光號"的直接行動時，須須激動地說："這是我一直的夢想呀！"

"極地曙光號"介紹
"極地曙光號"以前是一艘捕獵海豹船，綠色和平曾經阻攔這艘船給法國運送在南極建設飛機號道的設備，因為修建這條跑道會破 壞企鵝的棲息地。綠色和平於1995年購買這艘船，將它改裝為破冰船，並名為"極地曙光號"。

"極地曙光號"第一次行動就是著名的事件，它成功地阻止了殼牌石油公司將報廢的鑽井平臺"沈入北海。在 年，"極地曙光號"成為人類歷史上首度成功環繞南極 航行的船，但是這次航程之所以成功，是因為原來連接 與南極大陸的米厚的大冰塊因氣候變化而崩塌。自此，這艘破冰船多次協助綠色和平見證氣候變化對人類和動物生 存家園的破壞。

"極地曙光號"的最新任務是在巴西展開反對基因改造大豆的行動。


相關連結

須黎軍船上日記
保護大豆的故鄉－中國
保護大豆故鄉 共建生物安全長城 (簡體)
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[lynn george]

L2K-You constantly post or comment on articles that talk about what may or may not be valid theories and act like that gives us some reason to think that it is already happening on a wide scale.

SmT- Yep, I confess. Alot of times what I read in scientific papers and advocated by Universities, and taught in science books, and publcished in everything from Reason magazine or perhaps The Observer really IS happening. Strange for a bunkie to stray from listening to the "so called experts". But mainly it is simply watching the sky like I said for so long. And reading about the millions now being spent on climate engineering programs and listening to my fellow citizens around the world reporting the same thing. And it is CLEARLY VISABLE TO(MOST) ANYONE THAT SPENDS THE TIME OBSERVING THE SKY). Denial, enial, denial.



Lex- People point to the Owning the Weather by 2025 (http://www.letxa.com/issue_2025.php) document and assume that the military is already modifying the weather.

SmT-Yep. We SEE it. Look up. It's really pretty obvious hence the hundreds of websites and thousands and thousands of citizens researching climate engineering.



Lex- They point to the "Pentagon global warming" document and assume that that proves that global warming is a more significant threat than terrorism. They point to some odd "HAARP-like patents" and assume that HAARP is some high-technology weapon (even though HAARP is significantly different than what is described in the patents I've seen). You post these articles regarding ideas for geoengineering and say it is already happening in the form of "chemtrails." Do you understand that just because there are theories about this doesn't mean that millions of contrails are actually "chemtrails?"

SmT- C,mon Lex stop that bunkie behavior. Of course. But it doesn't mean that they aren't. They are the best fit for ALL of the criteria put together VS the idea that it is simply ice crystals or water vapor that expands out within hours from dozens of planes flying military type manuevers that saturate the sky the oh so ever familiar white CheMHaze.

Lex-At this point I have to ask, as silly and insulting as the question may sound: Do you understand the difference between theory and reality?

SmT- Absolutely. But the question is whether these theories are being acted upon. I say they WITHOUT A DOUBT FROM MY EXPERIENCE and the information I have spent a REASONABLE amount of time trying to HONESTLY look into SOMEONE is playing with the CLIMATE AND WEATHER BIG TIME to say the least.I have observed for months and months the actions of these planes and their trails AND read the scientific papers, AND listened to the reports coming in around the world now more and more each day from people who are witnessing too climate modification. And this is EXACTLY on time as the scientific papers said it would be when "global waring" reached the mainstream like coming from Britians officials urgent request to PAY ATTENTION to cliamte change, and of course to what the Pentagon might have to add. I have tried to read a reasonable amount of data, and thanks to Sore Throat's excellent data on Global Warming and Eduardo's reasonses It appears to me global climate change IS being escalated though I claim to be no expert on that topic. But then you bunkies know all that right. Look down in the disclaimer on your talking points bulletins. :D



I have noticed though when these trails are put down in such a fashion as I have described before...that the area gets naturally cooler because of the shading effect.

Clouds tend to have that affect. Contrails are effectively clouds. So it is not surprising that when contrails spread out in certain atmospheric conditions that they create clouds that, as you say, create a shade effect and lower the temperature. That can and is done with simple water vapor. What evidence do you have that there is something in the contrails intentionally put there or that the contrails are someting other than about 99% water vapor?[/quote]


SmT- This is where I said researchers REALY REALLY need to get together and get an actual sample or samples. I have suggested this as a way To FINALLY KNOW exactly what the content of thetrails is other than to watch how it is spreads, flight paths, total obscuation of the sun, rainbows, strange shadowing, etc, you know the effects. But until you can PROVE tthat it is only water vapor, by the way it appears to act and the other odd variable I mentioned and are SO EASILY NOTICED by most any person (NEWBIES JUST LOOK UP) I won't spend more time on this. Once again I will add. You won't stop this information from reaching the masses Lex. I have full faith when most anyone looks into the links here, or elsewhere, AND looks up most people will put 2 and 2 together. Guess what Lex. I spent over a half and hour on the radio tonight helping to inform citizens in a wide area of geoengineering. And guess what Lex. THey started calling right in after my call VERIFYING my experiences and adding their own insight into the aerosol programs. It was GREAT> I wish you could have been heard it. The word is going out. Neither you nor all of your bunkie buddies can stop it. The toothe paste is out of the tube. The cat is out of the bag. And Elvis has left the building. And I am about done here playing with bunkies. You all have been fun but I think unaffective. You can't hold back what is so blatantly evident. Go ahead and tit for tat, but I think you know the truth of what Iam saying. You can perhaps slow it down and in some ways I think that is really all you are here to do. Perhaps until those "terrorists" set off the volcano in Yellowstone producing a cloud of ash that will allow our chemtrail flyboys to have a rest. :D A nuke it was said by one of the Fed's that Al_quaeda was going to throw into the volcano. I'll see if I can find the link. The comment was made that the supposed Letter sent around by Al_Qaeda speaking of how the 'winds of black death plan was about 90% complete". Did anyone see the article that would admit to it. Are any bunkies allowed to admit to this here. Perhaps a few years of Revelation type good ol days of darkness. Wouldn't that be fun? Now there's a conspiracy June 25th or abouts it's said. Oh now there's some crazy conspiricists? That's John the Babtist's birthday isn't it? The pagans always love to use special 'holydays" don't they? About a week before the "offical handover" of Iraq to Iraqi's "(wink wink, cough cough). And a few month's before the election and about enough time to get a really hot 4th of July flag waving celebration going. Not advocating just reporting. Well you wanted a "conspiracy theory" didn't you? We'll see won't we what they have in store?

SmT

[halva]

Once again folk's....... Th Debunker's have rid another forum of "The Chemmie Menace"...........In doing so,we have made it quite clear to the likes of the chemtrail cult member's that their tactic's of subverting whole forum's to propagate their hoax...........Is not acceptable especially in this day and age of science,logic and reasoning......


Thanks to all who have participated in making this another CHEMMIE free board.....

[letxa2000]

SmT-Of course. But it doesn't mean that they aren't.

Just because something could conceivably be true doesn't mean that it is. Nor does the fact that a certain set of data doesn't disprove your claim make your claim any more valid. The fact remains that, for example, in the case of January 29th that recognized meteorological science explains the formation of contrails completely and adequately explains what we saw in the imagery. It was supported by a host of references that I provided. At the same time, you've provided no evidence whatsoever that they were anything but contrails--you've provided nothing but speculation.

On balance, the only reasonable conclusion is that they were contrails.


They are the best fit for ALL of the criteria put together VS the idea that it is simply ice crystals or water vapor that expands out within hours from dozens of planes flying military type manuevers that saturate the sky the oh so ever familiar white CheMHaze.

No, that is simply wrong. The best fit, scientifically speaking, given available information is that it is simply water vapor. Lacking verifiable evidence to the contrary and knowing the normal contrails can expand out within hours given the right atmospheric conditions there is no reason why an educated person with a rational mind would conclude that it is anything other than a contrail.


You won't stop this information from reaching the masses Lex.

What information? You've provided no proof whatsoever! There is nothing to keep from the masses even if I wanted to. And I don't want to keep anything from the public. I'd like nothing more than for you to prove your case here in public where everyone can see it and show me as being completely incorrect. If I wanted to keep the subject quiet the LAST thing I'd be doing would be debating it in public.


lynn george: SmT- Yep, I confess. Alot of times what I read in scientific papers and advocated by Universities, and taught in science books, and publcished in everything from Reason magazine or perhaps The Observer really IS happening. Strange for a bunkie to stray from listening to the "so called experts".

Has any expert in any of those sources stated that these theories are currently in practice on a widescale basis? Yes or no.

[gaiacomm]

Halva and others have done an outstanding job in informing others of the chemtrail problem and others have done an outstanding job in stirring the mud in the water with a twig!

All of you have made your point quite clear that chemtrails are a fantasy!
So why bother to continue this assault on those that wish to be left alone.

You follow these people like the black plague! You are just a nusance to the ones that wish you to go away and hide.

But you all will presist until someone goes to jail or is exposed on some cable channel to be picked up by a national network....or even international.

There are forces at work here that go beyond this forum of wantabe activists and debunkers.

You all are quick to blame others and point fingers at those who wish to know ,when in fact in your own hearts you wish it were not true and if it were, then you know that you were wrong.

Then the denial sets in and you deflect your anger and fear at others to make you feel more secure.

You have no more control over anything than the next person because you feel that you cannot make a difference so why not shout at everyone else because you feel so alone and so helpless to change the world around you...and if you could you would!

You know you cannot change your government or the business concerns that control you! You pay taxes and pay high gas prices because you have to...because you will not sacrifice without. You have become co-dependent on the very system that controls your life.

All is left is the internet and what you do each day in your life... but you are a small piece of clay that can be molded and used by others to control your destiny.

Oh yes you will counter this statement with insult but you can do nothing to stop me! You know as long as the internet exists you will have a place in cyberspace.

The government will always control you and poison your mind, land, air, food, and water and you can and will do nothing about it because you are dependent on the "things" you think you need!

So continue to post your rantings of madness because in space no body can hear you scream!

[ICU812]

letxa2000 Wrote:
"I have never been asked a question (by chemtrail believers) that I couldn't answer--when I don't know the answer, I find it"

letxa2000 Wrote: pg.93
"We don't all have time to answer a bunch of busy-work rhetorical questions. It is obvious the questions are really meant as statements anyway. The questions themselves are preloaded with assumptions that, just by asking them, cause the casual reader to think certain conclusions are already validated without having to provide any evidence."

ICU: Now we know where you stand letxa. Back on page 85 I proposed questions that any individual who has observed an unusual atmospheric reaction from the result of air traffic would want answered.

Your response made it obvious that you have not done the research, can't look for the answers and simply attend this forum for attention.

The questions are meant to be answered but it seems you have difficulty remembering who you are from time to time. Much like the two personalities of Jay.

I see letxa that you and airtankerpilot have made an attempt at the easy ones but you really haven't done the research.

Lets make it easy for you. Several years ago individuals from different parts of the globe began to observe contrail formations they had never observed before.

(Jay claims a couple of guys were looking into controlled products in aviation fuel and that's how the big hoax got started) Nothing to do with the observations of thousands of your fellow nitizens Jay?

Some of the claims the observers made have generated these questions.

Are there currently any past or ongoing classified "atmospheric projects or programs" being conducted by NASA/UNEP/EDU./MIL./DARPA/DOE or other type GOV. body?

What research has been performed using Aluminum Oxide in relation to atmospheric sciences?
What were the results?
Who has performed this research and where are they employed now?
What value of Al is normal in our precipitation and what values are we currently seeing?
Is there a greater interest in the effects of Aluminum on plant material and forage crops since 1997?
What research was performed pre.... and past 1997?
Has Aluminum ever been suspended in a slurry and released from an aircraft...... other than chaff?

What were average atmospheric particulate values pre 1997 and what are they now?
What changes have occured to visibility parameters for aircraft in recent years, who inititated the changes and why?

What research has been done to utilize the thermodynamic properties of a gas turbine engine and release particles through it as indicated in the Welsbach Patent?
Who did the research and what were the results?
Has the theory of particulate release through a gas turbine engine ever been applied, ......by who .....and what were the results?

Has a KC-135 (or similiar acft) ever been involved in experiments in atmospheric sciences?
What were the experiments?
Does the MAS System fit through the cargo door of a KC-135?
Where are KC-135's petro 011 and 012 based and what role do they perform?
Are decomissioned commercial aircraft ever purchased by GOV. departments and used for atmospheric research?
Do persistent contrails show up on ATC radar and what are the reporting timelines and procedures for ATCer's when they do?
Is this public information and where can one see the data?

What research has been performed using Barium in relation to atmospheric sciences or communications?
Who did the experiments and what were the results?

Are Jepperson flight charts or similiar aircraft navigation charts available to the general public to determine jet-airways? (Thank you letxa for the link)

Is it possible for the public to access uppersounding information to determine if persistent contrails they are seeing can be supported by the atmospheric conditions in which the contrails persist?


Don't think for a minute that a debunker will provide the answers to these questions. Some of it is information, for reasons I can't understand, debunkers don't want the public to know.

[letxa2000]

Are Jepperson flight charts or similiar aircraft navigation charts available to the general public to determine jet-airways? (Thank you letxa for the link)

You're welcome but... you were criticizing me for not having "done the research" after asking whether or not flight charts are available to the general public? That answer could have been discovered in about 10 seconds on Google. Talk about not doing the research... or did the question have more to do with suggesting a conclusion to the innocent reader (by implying that the charts aren't available to the public) even though you already knew the charts were publically available?

Face it, that question either demonstrates non-existant research on your part or is undisputable evidence of asking a question you know has an innocent answer just to deceive the innocent reader into thinking the information isn't public and making the whole thing look even more suspicious.

So which is it? Non-existant research or deceiving the innocent reader?


letxa2000 Wrote: pg.93 "We don't all have time to answer a bunch of busy-work rhetorical questions. It is obvious the questions are really meant as statements anyway. The questions themselves are preloaded with assumptions that, just by asking them, cause the casual reader to think certain conclusions are already validated without having to provide any evidence."

ICU812: Your response made it obvious that you have not done the research, can't look for the answers and simply attend this forum for attention.

And your complete misinterpretation of (or intentional disregard for) my stated reason for not addressing those "questions" (which were really pre-loaded statements designed to lead to a conclusion) makes it obvious that you are participating in a disingenuous and deceptive fashion with, apparently, no evidence to present or, possibly, a fear of submitting your beliefs to public scrutiny--hence your asking questions rather than making statements. Even SMT makes affirmations of her beliefs even if she has been unable to substantiate any of them in science thusfar.

I'll tell you what... Instead of asking rhetorical questions/statements, why not go ahead and make some positive assertions on the topic? Make it clear to us what you are alleging here and let us verify your claims. You see, asking these rhetorical questions and expecting someone to address them in any serious fashion is rediculous. Your questions effectively lead the reader to conclusions without you ever actually providing any evidence or even stating what your position is. Attempting to answer such open-ended, pre-loaded and effectively rhetorical questions is an exercise in futility since there is no way to know exactly what you're trying to get at and if the research shows that the answer to some question does not support your never-defined theory, you can just weasle out and say "I was just asking the question, I never said it was true." Nice try, but no thanks.

If you have something to claim, say it and let the world investigate your claims. Don't just ask silly pre-loaded rhetorical questions and then think you've somehow won a point because no-one wastes time answering questions that, even if answered, would prove nothing since we don't know exactly what you're claiming. Make a statement and let us verify it.

SMT apparently isn't going to provide any real evidence, perhaps you will.

[halva]

Once again folk's....... Th Debunker's have rid another forum of "The Chemmie Menace"...........In doing so,we have made it quite clear to the likes of the chemtrail cult member's that their tactic's of subverting whole forum's to propagate their hoax...........Is not acceptable especially in this day and age of science,logic and reasoning......


Thanks to all who have participated in making this another CHEMMIE free board.....

[halva]

So now here we we are all back in the game again. Reynolds threatening us with Guantanamo if we open our mouths, Letxa threatening us with his moral disapproval if we do NOT open our mouths, and talk about exactly what he wants to talk about and nothing more or less, and the other bunkie puppies yapping around their and our heels.

[jayreynolds]

letxa wrote:
"If you have something to claim, say it and let the world investigate your claims. Don't just ask silly pre-loaded rhetorical questions and then think you've somehow won a point because no-one wastes time answering questions that, even if answered, would prove nothing since we don't know exactly what you're claiming. Make a statement and let us verify it."

well for starters, this ICu fellow is David Davie, who runs Executive Lanscapes, Ltd. in St Albert, Alberta, where he builds playgrounds.

His claims are here:
http://www.willthomas.net/spraytankers.htm

He lays out the extent of his other "evidences" here:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001728.html

ICU, do you certify that the information you claim in the William Thomas article is 100% accurate?
If not, what is inaccurate?

I have plenty more questions about your claims, but know that Thomas has a background of making inaccurate statements and would like you to clarify if there are any discrepancies in his article.

[halva]

綠色和平成員須黎軍登上了遠洋船"極地曙光號"以直接的行動要求巴西政府不要批准種植基因改造大豆。行動於4月20日在巴西展開。

我們為什麼要求巴西不要種植基因改造大豆？消費者要吃不受基因改造污染的食物，必需有大豆主產國供應非基因 改造大豆。現在，其他的大豆主產國家（美國和阿根廷）已經大量種植基因改造大豆，巴西是全世界第二大的大豆 生產國家，如果也批准種植基因改造大豆，我們要吃上一口不受基因改造污染的食物，將會變得更為 困難！

另外一個重要原因是中國每年從巴西進口大量大豆。眾所周知，中國是大豆的故鄉，擁有全世界最豐富的大豆遺傳 資源，綠色和平和中國的專家擔心大量進口基因改造大豆有可能污染中國的大豆及大豆遺傳資源。如果巴西批准種 植基因改造大豆，將大大增加中國大豆受污染的風險！

巴西過去一直禁止種植基因改造大豆，但去年卻批准臨時種植。可以說，巴西正處於是否正式批准基因改造大豆的 十字路口。

在這關鍵時候，綠色和平的成員須黎軍登上了"極地曙光號"，以直接的行動要求巴西政府不要批准種植基因改造大豆。我們呼籲更多人關注他的行動，支援"極地曙光號"防止基因改造作物擴散的行動，因為我們需要從源頭上減少中國大豆受到污染的威脅，因為這個世界需要更多非基 因改造的淨土！

綠色和平在行動：中國男孩海上日記

4月8日
…… 看到了是她，就是她，跟照片裡的一樣，但更大、更漂亮。我興奮地登上船去，把行李脫放在甲板上，與來歡迎我 們的船員男的握手、女的親吻，簡短的自我介紹 然後抱著相機上竄下跳，把甲板上的一切都看了個夠，"這是我們的船，我們綠色和平自己的船！"我幾乎要哭了。

4月20日
… … 這就是我第一次親身進行的綠色和平非暴力直接行動，簡單、快捷而又友好，但卻是經過精心策劃、艱苦訓練和密 切配合才完成的。……我們要表達的資訊：基因改造生物需要標識，公眾有權作出知情選擇，公眾有權對 基因改造說不，也必須保護我們的食物和生態系統不受基因污染。

須黎軍介紹
1979年出生於山水甲天下的桂林，並在這裡長大；98年保送廈門大學生命科學學院學習生物學；99年暑期 參加第四屆全國大學生綠色營；2000年9月與志同道合的幾位同學共同創辦廈門大學綠野協會（一個熱愛自然 、保護環境的大學生社團）；畢業後於2002年進入珍古道爾研究會下的根與芽環境教育專案北京辦公室工作， 根與芽是一個全球性的青少年環境與人道主義教育專案；2003年8月加入綠色和平，從事基因改造生物和可持 續農業專案方面的工作。

喜歡自然以及中國的傳統知識和文化，愛好很廣泛，包括觀鳥、認植物、拉二胡、學習中醫等等。在知道將參與綠 色和平"極地曙光號"的直接行動時，須須激動地說："這是我一直的夢想呀！"

"極地曙光號"介紹
"極地曙光號"以前是一艘捕獵海豹船，綠色和平曾經阻攔這艘船給法國運送在南極建設飛機號道的設備，因為修建這條跑道會破 壞企鵝的棲息地。綠色和平於1995年購買這艘船，將它改裝為破冰船，並名為"極地曙光號"。

"極地曙光號"第一次行動就是著名的事件，它成功地阻止了殼牌石油公司將報廢的鑽井平臺"沈入北海。在 年，"極地曙光號"成為人類歷史上首度成功環繞南極 航行的船，但是這次航程之所以成功，是因為原來連接 與南極大陸的米厚的大冰塊因氣候變化而崩塌。自此，這艘破冰船多次協助綠色和平見證氣候變化對人類和動物生 存家園的破壞。

"極地曙光號"的最新任務是在巴西展開反對基因改造大豆的行動。


相關連結

須黎軍船上日記
保護大豆的故鄉－中國
保護大豆故鄉 共建生物安全長城 (簡體)
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[letxa2000]

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001728-2.html#44
ICU812: Statement submitted as a question!

Hmm, it looks like ICU812 does understand and recognize the concept of making a statement in a question. It looks like he, too, didn't answer the statement/question back in that thread. So presumably ICU812 will now understand if we don't waste time answering his rhetorical, leading, statement/questions today.

Thanks for the link, Jay. Nice to have some background on ICU812 and to see that he does understand why his laundry list of statement/questions are intellectually useless.

[whitemajikman]

letxa wrote:
"If you have something to claim, say it and let the world investigate your claims. Don't just ask silly pre-loaded rhetorical questions and then think you've somehow won a point because no-one wastes time answering questions that, even if answered, would prove nothing since we don't know exactly what you're claiming. Make a statement and let us verify it."

well for starters, this ICu fellow is David Davie, who runs Executive Lanscapes, Ltd. in St Albert, Alberta, where he builds playgrounds.

His claims are here:
http://www.willthomas.net/spraytankers.htm

He lays out the extent of his other "evidences" here:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001728.html

ICU, do you certify that the information you claim in the William Thomas article is 100% accurate?
If not, what is inaccurate?

I have plenty more questions about your claims, but know that Thomas has a background of making inaccurate statements and would like you to clarify if there are any discrepancies in his article.
_________________
Contrails, or 'Trails-CON?
A website reviewing the facts and the claims about the Contrails/Chemtrails controversy
by Jay Reynolds
http://worldzone.net/science/reality2u30/



Well what a small world.......



SPRAY TANKERS TRACKED BY RADAR,

LAB TESTS RAISE CONCERNS

by William Thomas
Senior reporter Lifeboat News

Jan. 28, 2003


Last fall, a long-time landscaper working under contract for the City of Edmonton began noticing that carefully tended flowers and trees were showing signs of severe nutrient deficiencies.

City specifications call for electrical conductivity (EC) readings no higher than "1" in local soils. When soil samples showed damaging EC readings 4.6 to 7-times higher than this maximum permissible level, Dave Dickie suspected that elevated levels of electricity-conducting metals in the soils could be leading to the plants’ "chlorosis" condition.

A life-long plane spotter, Dickie also wondered if there could be a connection to events unfolding on ATC radar scopes during his regular visits to the Edmonton municipal airport’s Air Traffic Control center.

Last Father’s Day, Dickie and an excited group of 12 year-olds watched two KC-135s, tagged "Petro 011" and "Petro 012", flying at 34,000 and 36,000 feet south and north of Edmonton.

According to the controllers watching the scopes, both U.S. Air Force KC-135 air-refueling tankers had flown south out of Alaska. But the big Boeings were not refueling other aircraft. Instead, as Dickie, the kids and the controllers watched, the four-engine jets began making patterns over Edmonton – "circuits" the controllers called it.

The Stratotankers were working alone in "commanded airspace" from which all other aircraft were excluded. And they were leaving chemtrails.


TELLTALE SIGNATURES
"The signature is significant" commented one radar operator, referring to trails clearly visible on his scope extending for miles behind the KC-135s. In contrast, a commercial JAL flight on the same display left no visible trail.

Going outside, Dickie and several controllers scanned clear blue skies over the northern Canadian city. Visibility was outstanding. They easily located a KC-135 leaving a lingering, broad white plume. They could also clearly see the JAL airliner at a similar flight level. It left no contrail at all.

On other occasions, Dickie has watched KC-135s on Edmonton radar leaving lingering trails as low as 18,000 feet.

"We see these guys up here a lot," radar techs told Dickie, explaining that the USAF tanker flights originate in Alaska and continue on into the States – after gridding the Edmonton area with emanations clearly visible on radar.

"You should have seen it when they had the big summit up in Calgary," the Canadian controllers exclaimed. "It was exciting to watch them." The G7 maneuvers suggested that barium might have been sprayed to enhance radio and radar surveillance over what protesters condemned as a "globalization" conference aimed at worldwide corporate domination.

That was speculation. But back in Edmonton, there was no doubt that particulates were being sprayed by the tankers. Pointing to "birdie feet" on their scopes, the radar technicians showed Dickie particles appearing "as concentrations of dots" in the radar-tracked plumes.

Zooming in and out on each plane with the click of cursor, Dickie said that he and the controllers "could see different contrails." Some were short, and quickly vanished from the scopes. Other trails were thick, long and lingering – not acting like contrails at all.

Especially exciting for Dickie and the kids was watching head-on passes between KC-135s and commercial airliners. Flying directly at each other with a closing rate of nearly 1,000 mph, the huge jets appeared about to collide. But the unconcerned controllers explained to Dickie that the aircraft must adhere to a minimum 1,000 foot vertical separation rule – recently reduced from twice that safety margin. No one explained what might happen, if the "top" plane suffered a sudden decompression and was forced to dive to lower altitude.


BARIUM AND ALUMINUM CONFIRMED
Assuming that unusual metal content in the soil could be causing the high electrical conductivity readings, Dickie collected samples of a fresh snowfall for the city, and took them to Edmonton’s NorWest Labs for analysis.

This reporter has obtained copies of lab tests conducted on snow samples collected by the city of Edmonton, Alberta between Nov. 8 - 12, 2002. The tests show unaccountably elevated levels of aluminum and barium. Norwest Labs lab report #336566, dated Nov. 14. 2002 found:

aluminum levels: 0.148 milligrams/litre
barium levels: 0.006 milligrams/litre
Acting like the electrolyte in a car battery, barium chemtrails developed at Ohio’s Wright Patterson Air Force Base are routinely sprayed into the atmosphere to "duct" or bend military radio and radar waves over-the-horizon, instead of continuing straight beyond the Earth’s curvature into space. "Wright Pat" is also closely connected to HAARP experiments employing tightly focused, extremely high-energy radio frequency beams to alter the weather, disrupt communications and "X-ray" bunkers deep underground thousands of miles away the transmitter array in Gakon, Alaska.

Aluminum stunts plant growth by sucking nutrients from the soil.

Dave Dickie told me, "Our most recent snowfall was tested for aluminum and barium and we were not surprised with the results. You’ve said it all along and this just substantiates some of your claims."

But the soil expert cautioned that because the chemistry of unrefined aluminum oxide often found in the environment depends on soil acidity and the presence of other minerals, it is difficult to estimate "natural" background concentrations. Even so, NorWest Lab techs told Dickie that the elevated levels of aluminum and barium they were finding are not usually found in Alberta precipitation.

Concerned city officials ordered more tests made on precipitation falling within a 40 mile radius of Edmonton. A second series of lab tests has now confirmed high levels of barium and aluminum in snow Dickie thinks fell through chemtrails. So far, he says, there is no other explanation for the high-levels of each chemical compound in city soils.

Dickie says it’s so simple to test for aluminum and barium, labs typically charge $10 to $15 for this analysis. He is adding quartz to the list of possible fallout components after tiny quartz particles dominated lab tests of rain falling through heavy chemtrails over Espanola, Ontario in the summer of 1999. Levels of aluminum analyzed in the Ontario samples were up to seven-times higher than provincial permissible safety limits.


U.S. CONTROLLERS CONCERNED OVER CHEMTRAILS
South of the border, U.S. Air Traffic Controllers were also concerned over tanker-spread emissions. Just after Christmas 2001, the Air Traffic Control manager for the northeastern seaboard became increasingly concerned that his young son’s illness – and episodes of Sudden Onset Acute Asthma suffered by his formerly allergy-free wife – could be linked with the increased aerial activity he was seeing on his scopes.

On March 12, 2001, this source – who came to be called "Deep Sky" by this reporter and ABC-affiliated radio reporter S.T. Brendt – told Brendt that he and other controllers were being told to re-route commercial air traffic beneath formations of air force tankers. Insisting that flight safety was not affected, he admitted during a follow-up interview at WMWV radio station that the KC-135s were spraying something that reflected radar pulses as a "haze" that degraded ATC radars.

Brendt contacted the FAA official after counting more than 30 big jets within 45 minutes spreading persistent plumes over rural Maine. Also alerted by Brendt, assistant WMWV news director Richard Dean and his staff counted 370 chemical trails criss-crossing his nearby location. But Deep Sky told Brendt that of the nine commercial jets on his radars at the time, only one or two would have been visible from her location.

Speaking on condition of strict anonymity, the ATC manager later expressed concern over the classified operations conducted by much larger military formations of KC-135 tankers between 37,000 and 40,000 feet.

Many video-documented plume patterns grid skies away from charted airline routes on days when high altitude temperatures and humidity do not permit normal contrail formation. Studies by Ralph Steadham of FAA-identified traffic over Houston found that while commercial condensation trails comprising momentarily flash-frozen water vapor typically disappear within 22 seconds or less, much broader, sunlight-reflecting jet trails left by military jets flying at the same time in the same airspace often lingered for four to eight hours.


CANADIANS LODGE CHEMTRAILS COMPLAINTS
The previous December, 2000 Canadian aviation authority Terry Stewart investigating a Victoria caller’s complaint of intensive "chemtrail" activity over the British Columbia capitol left a taped message saying, "It’s a military exercise, U.S. and Canadian air force exercise that’s going on. They wouldn’t give me any specifics on it…very odd."

Despite denials from a Canadian commander at Comox Air Base that the American tanker flights were taking place, Stewart later admitted to the Vancouver Courier that his information came directly from the Comox base. He was later stopped and interrogated by U.S. authorities while crossing the border on a routine visit.

Before ever hearing of "chemtrails", Canadians were the first to formerly complain to their federal government over what they identified as chemical spraying. In November 1999, an Opposition Defence Critic presented a petition to Parliament signed by 550 residents of Espanola, Ontario. The largely native community demanded an explanation and an end to aerial spraying by photo-identified USAF tankers, which they claimed was sickening children and adults over a 55 square mile area.

Laboratory tests of rainwater falling through the sky plumes being paid in X’s and grid patterns over Espanola found levels of aluminum seven-times higher than federal health

safety limits. The U.S. Air Force denied flying over Espanola. The Canadian Forces, which do not operate large squadrons of aerial tankers, eventually responded, saying, "It’s not us."


DEEP SKIES II
But in late December 2002, just three months after the traumatic events of Sept. 11 left air force tankers gridding skies emptied of commercial aircraft, an increasingly worried "Deep Sky" began calling his colleagues at FAA flight centers across the United States to ask them if they were seeing what he was seeing on his own radar scopes.

They were.

Controllers at Chicago’s O’Hare (still the busiest airport in America), all three New York City area airports, LA’s LAX, San Francisco, Jacksonville, Cleveland, San Diego, Dulles, Washington DC and the nation’s biggest airport in Atlanta all reported tracking unusual formations of particle-emitting Air Force tankers on their scopes. So were controllers at smaller municipal airports.

Every controllers contacted by Deep Sky said they were being told to divert commercial traffic below formations of tankers flying strange patterns they were told were "routine".

But instead of enhancing radar coverage, initial explanations from their superiors warned controllers that unspecified "experiments with radar" could degrade their own displays. The controllers confirmed to Deep Sky that they had never seen so much "clutter" or artificial "cloudiness" obscuring their radars.

By then, a growing number of informally networked Air Traffic Controllers were aware of the "chemtrails" controversy. Some cited the short-lived House Resolution 2977 sponsored by Ohio Representative Dennis Kucinich, which sought to ban space warfare and other exotic weapons, including "chemtrails".

But concerned controllers across America told S.T. Brendt that whatever was going on, flight safety was a consideration. Even more worrisome was the fallout they were seeing on their scopes. They knew from their professional studies in meteorology, that "this stuff falls to the ground." And they wondered about what they termed, potential health hazards

As federal employees, the FAA radar operators were afraid to come forward with their concerns. But at least one controller working in America’s heartland visited a local hospital after heavy tanker activity – to find the emergency room jammed with acute respiratory cases.

"They want to know what the heck is in there," Brendt reported. "One of them said – al or barium – that’s not something you want to be breathing." [Al is the chemical abbreviation for aluminum.]

Corroborating Deep Sky’s allegations, controllers across the USA confirmed that the word "climate" is still being mentioned by their superiors in explaining the ongoing aerial experiments. At the time of Brendt’s follow-up interviews, at least six Air Traffic Controllers were told that the air force tankers were engaged in "climate experiments".

In 1998, H-Bomb inventor Edward Teller urged the spraying of 10 million tons of sunlight-reflecting aluminum oxide in the atmosphere to deflect a small percentage of incoming sunlight and avert catastrophic global warming. A patent issued to the Hughes aerospace giant calls for mixing 10 micron particulates of aluminum oxide and other sunlight-scattering into jet fuel for dispersal at cruising altitudes.

After studies in the U.S. and U.K. showed that random concentrations of air pollution can cause lethal lung and heart problems, the United States EPA now classifies 10 micron air pollutants as an "Extreme Health Hazard". (A human hair is 100 microns in diameter.)

As reports continue to come in of renewed heavy chemtrail activity across the USA and Canada’s western provinces, lab testing continues in Edmonton, where an ongoing investigation seeks to correlate chemtrail "spray days" with fresh snow and soil samples.




Dave Dickie.......

Has totally left out ......the real cause of high aluminum and barium in the samples taken.......

But before I get into this ....Let me just say Hi Dave...

You see Dave ...I have known for many years...

Even before his day's of Being an owner of Executive.....

He was a valued member of a company called Landtec......

Until he had words with the owner regarding a raise in salary.....

Then he was off to mid-city.....

Where all they wished was to lose money to off-set another business's high taxes...

until he finally fought tooth and nail to open his own company which has been very successful .....to this date.

AS a Landscaper and business man.....he has flourished his skills are impeccable.


But as a Chemtrail evidence provider,he has broken a very simple rule which applies to most phenomena.....

before using a hoax or a conspiracy theory to explain one's observation's.....

one must first take a look at one's surrounding's ........

And only if there is no other possibilities that barium and aluminum could be coming from a source that is not present in one's surrounding's......

Should one start maybe looking at conspiracy......but with a balanced view......

Dave Dickie,did not use a balanced view and he sure did not check out his surrounding's......SORRY DAVE.


YOU SEE WE LIVE IN ....ALBERTA,CANADA...


THE LAST PLACE IN NORTH AMERICA WITH A HUGE OIL SUPPLY......

IN EDMONTON,FORT SASKATCHEWAN,AND SURROUNDING AREA'S.....

THEIR IS A HUGE INDUSTRIAL BASE TO SUPPORT THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY.......FROM REFINERIES.....TO OIL AND GAS PIPELINE TERMINALS......TO CHEMICAL PLANT'S......EVEN THE HYDRO GENERATION STATION......IS IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO ST.ALBERT.....

AS IS THE MILITARY BASE WHICH IS JUST OVER 3 MILES AWAY.....


THE POLLUTION THAT DAVE IS TRYING TO PIN ON THE CHEMTRAIL HOAX ,IS IN FACT.....

RESIDUE WHICH IS LEFT OVER FROM THE BURN OFF THAT IS DONE BY THESE REFINERIES......
AND IF YOU WERE TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE OFFICIAL E.P.A REPORTS FOR THIS AREA......
YOU WOULD FIND THAT BARIUM AND ALUMINUM HAVE BEEN PRESENT SINCE THE SIXTIES WHEN THEY STARTED TAKING CRUDE SAMPLES OF THE SURROUNDING SOIL AND WATER ........

ALSO....

THE AIR- CRAFT THAT HE WITNESSED WAS APART OF NORMAL MILITARY MANOUEVERS........THAT ARE DONE ON A REGULAR BASIS OVER OUR SKIES......

AND BECAUSE WE ARE A northern CITY.......THE TEMPERATURES IN OUR SKY ARE COLD......MOST OF THE YEAR....

RIPE FOR THE MAKING OF CONTRAILS......


IN FACT IF DAVE WOULD BE SO KIND TO ADDRESS WHAT I HAVE SAID HERE FIRST......

I AM SURE THAT I CAN PROVE WHAT I HAVE SAID....

IF NOT WITH WORDS...

WITH DATA AND LOGIC AND REASONING.....


WHAT SAY YOU.....DAVE

[halva]

綠色和平成員須黎軍登上了遠洋船"極地曙光號"以直接的行動要求巴西政府不要批准種植基因改造大豆。行動於4月20日在巴西展開。

我們為什麼要求巴西不要種植基因改造大豆？消費者要吃不受基因改造污染的食物，必需有大豆主產國供應非基因 改造大豆。現在，其他的大豆主產國家（美國和阿根廷）已經大量種植基因改造大豆，巴西是全世界第二大的大豆 生產國家，如果也批准種植基因改造大豆，我們要吃上一口不受基因改造污染的食物，將會變得更為 困難！

另外一個重要原因是中國每年從巴西進口大量大豆。眾所周知，中國是大豆的故鄉，擁有全世界最豐富的大豆遺傳 資源，綠色和平和中國的專家擔心大量進口基因改造大豆有可能污染中國的大豆及大豆遺傳資源。如果巴西批准種 植基因改造大豆，將大大增加中國大豆受污染的風險！

巴西過去一直禁止種植基因改造大豆，但去年卻批准臨時種植。可以說，巴西正處於是否正式批准基因改造大豆的 十字路口。

在這關鍵時候，綠色和平的成員須黎軍登上了"極地曙光號"，以直接的行動要求巴西政府不要批准種植基因改造大豆。我們呼籲更多人關注他的行動，支援"極地曙光號"防止基因改造作物擴散的行動，因為我們需要從源頭上減少中國大豆受到污染的威脅，因為這個世界需要更多非基 因改造的淨土！

綠色和平在行動：中國男孩海上日記

4月8日
…… 看到了是她，就是她，跟照片裡的一樣，但更大、更漂亮。我興奮地登上船去，把行李脫放在甲板上，與來歡迎我 們的船員男的握手、女的親吻，簡短的自我介紹 然後抱著相機上竄下跳，把甲板上的一切都看了個夠，"這是我們的船，我們綠色和平自己的船！"我幾乎要哭了。

4月20日
… … 這就是我第一次親身進行的綠色和平非暴力直接行動，簡單、快捷而又友好，但卻是經過精心策劃、艱苦訓練和密 切配合才完成的。……我們要表達的資訊：基因改造生物需要標識，公眾有權作出知情選擇，公眾有權對 基因改造說不，也必須保護我們的食物和生態系統不受基因污染。

須黎軍介紹
1979年出生於山水甲天下的桂林，並在這裡長大；98年保送廈門大學生命科學學院學習生物學；99年暑期 參加第四屆全國大學生綠色營；2000年9月與志同道合的幾位同學共同創辦廈門大學綠野協會（一個熱愛自然 、保護環境的大學生社團）；畢業後於2002年進入珍古道爾研究會下的根與芽環境教育專案北京辦公室工作， 根與芽是一個全球性的青少年環境與人道主義教育專案；2003年8月加入綠色和平，從事基因改造生物和可持 續農業專案方面的工作。

喜歡自然以及中國的傳統知識和文化，愛好很廣泛，包括觀鳥、認植物、拉二胡、學習中醫等等。在知道將參與綠 色和平"極地曙光號"的直接行動時，須須激動地說："這是我一直的夢想呀！"

"極地曙光號"介紹
"極地曙光號"以前是一艘捕獵海豹船，綠色和平曾經阻攔這艘船給法國運送在南極建設飛機號道的設備，因為修建這條跑道會破 壞企鵝的棲息地。綠色和平於1995年購買這艘船，將它改裝為破冰船，並名為"極地曙光號"。

"極地曙光號"第一次行動就是著名的事件，它成功地阻止了殼牌石油公司將報廢的鑽井平臺"沈入北海。在 年，"極地曙光號"成為人類歷史上首度成功環繞南極 航行的船，但是這次航程之所以成功，是因為原來連接 與南極大陸的米厚的大冰塊因氣候變化而崩塌。自此，這艘破冰船多次協助綠色和平見證氣候變化對人類和動物生 存家園的破壞。

"極地曙光號"的最新任務是在巴西展開反對基因改造大豆的行動。


相關連結

須黎軍船上日記
保護大豆的故鄉－中國
保護大豆故鄉 共建生物安全長城 (簡體)
轉寄給朋友 | 返回上一頁 | 列印版本

[whitemajikman]

Halva......

Did you say something........?


or are you trying to make contact with the resident's of planet x again....?

[halva]

綠色和平成員須黎軍登上了遠洋船"極地曙光號"以直接的行動要求巴西政府不要批准種植基因改造大豆。行動於4月20日在巴西展開。

我們為什麼要求巴西不要種植基因改造大豆？消費者要吃不受基因改造污染的食物，必需有大豆主產國供應非基因 改造大豆。現在，其他的大豆主產國家（美國和阿根廷）已經大量種植基因改造大豆，巴西是全世界第二大的大豆 生產國家，如果也批准種植基因改造大豆，我們要吃上一口不受基因改造污染的食物，將會變得更為 困難！

另外一個重要原因是中國每年從巴西進口大量大豆。眾所周知，中國是大豆的故鄉，擁有全世界最豐富的大豆遺傳 資源，綠色和平和中國的專家擔心大量進口基因改造大豆有可能污染中國的大豆及大豆遺傳資源。如果巴西批准種 植基因改造大豆，將大大增加中國大豆受污染的風險！

巴西過去一直禁止種植基因改造大豆，但去年卻批准臨時種植。可以說，巴西正處於是否正式批准基因改造大豆的 十字路口。

在這關鍵時候，綠色和平的成員須黎軍登上了"極地曙光號"，以直接的行動要求巴西政府不要批准種植基因改造大豆。我們呼籲更多人關注他的行動，支援"極地曙光號"防止基因改造作物擴散的行動，因為我們需要從源頭上減少中國大豆受到污染的威脅，因為這個世界需要更多非基 因改造的淨土！

綠色和平在行動：中國男孩海上日記

4月8日
…… 看到了是她，就是她，跟照片裡的一樣，但更大、更漂亮。我興奮地登上船去，把行李脫放在甲板上，與來歡迎我 們的船員男的握手、女的親吻，簡短的自我介紹 然後抱著相機上竄下跳，把甲板上的一切都看了個夠，"這是我們的船，我們綠色和平自己的船！"我幾乎要哭了。

4月20日
… … 這就是我第一次親身進行的綠色和平非暴力直接行動，簡單、快捷而又友好，但卻是經過精心策劃、艱苦訓練和密 切配合才完成的。……我們要表達的資訊：基因改造生物需要標識，公眾有權作出知情選擇，公眾有權對 基因改造說不，也必須保護我們的食物和生態系統不受基因污染。

須黎軍介紹
1979年出生於山水甲天下的桂林，並在這裡長大；98年保送廈門大學生命科學學院學習生物學；99年暑期 參加第四屆全國大學生綠色營；2000年9月與志同道合的幾位同學共同創辦廈門大學綠野協會（一個熱愛自然 、保護環境的大學生社團）；畢業後於2002年進入珍古道爾研究會下的根與芽環境教育專案北京辦公室工作， 根與芽是一個全球性的青少年環境與人道主義教育專案；2003年8月加入綠色和平，從事基因改造生物和可持 續農業專案方面的工作。

喜歡自然以及中國的傳統知識和文化，愛好很廣泛，包括觀鳥、認植物、拉二胡、學習中醫等等。在知道將參與綠 色和平"極地曙光號"的直接行動時，須須激動地說："這是我一直的夢想呀！"

"極地曙光號"介紹
"極地曙光號"以前是一艘捕獵海豹船，綠色和平曾經阻攔這艘船給法國運送在南極建設飛機號道的設備，因為修建這條跑道會破 壞企鵝的棲息地。綠色和平於1995年購買這艘船，將它改裝為破冰船，並名為"極地曙光號"。

"極地曙光號"第一次行動就是著名的事件，它成功地阻止了殼牌石油公司將報廢的鑽井平臺"沈入北海。在 年，"極地曙光號"成為人類歷史上首度成功環繞南極 航行的船，但是這次航程之所以成功，是因為原來連接 與南極大陸的米厚的大冰塊因氣候變化而崩塌。自此，這艘破冰船多次協助綠色和平見證氣候變化對人類和動物生 存家園的破壞。

"極地曙光號"的最新任務是在巴西展開反對基因改造大豆的行動。


相關連結

須黎軍船上日記
保護大豆的故鄉－中國
保護大豆故鄉 共建生物安全長城 (簡體)
轉寄給朋友 | 返回上一頁 | 列印版本

[jayreynolds]

So Davie is known to you, eh, whitey?

Actually his samples, if he ever actually took any(and bet he had no chain of custody) DO tell a story.

Let's see, readings in the city seemed higher, but readings in the country are lower. Sort of tells you your pollution isn't coming from no worldwide spraying conspiracy, doesn't it, Davie?

Hey, Wayne Hall, your spamming will get you nowhere fast, but your desperation to keep real debate from happening stands out like dog's balls.

What, no takers at your new forum? Not even any responses when you tried to start your own sect by luring dates away from CTC?
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002088.html

[lynn george]

GReetings all,

We'll I think about every thing that has needed to be said, has been. The info, links, pictures, papers, eye witness acoounts, etc. etc. can speak for themselves and of course as with any info the individual will come to their own conclusions. I appreciate Ms. Huffington providing space to discuss relevant timely subjects and hope that maybe she has taken the time to at least peek in and survey what her article sparked, or at least allowed to happen. I hope if nothing else she will take the time to look into the science of climate modification and it's potential impacts on the planet and the world's citizens. I personally believe that these programs are going to have a HUGE impact on all of our lives and it is great more are starting to pay attention and simply look up and view the condition of the planets skies and what is being attempted to "fix" it.

On a personal note I realise there is a role for debunkers in helping to act as a "regulater" on the flow of information. I'll be honest here and speak freely. I understand there are certain subjects that certain agencies involved in certain programs believe it is in the best interest of the "citizens" not to know about. We all know about "state secrets" and those dirty little skeletons in the Fed closet that we claim over and over never come out anymore, they were only "in the past". It is my sincerest belief that I agree SOME things may be better left unknown to the "citizenry", but I cannot say I think that these programs should be hidden. I realize that some that are affiliated with these programs may truly feel it is best to keep this info downplayed for as long as possible.

But again let me ask freely and for those that care to "hear' you can perhaps contemplate this without giving up 'your hand'. Here is where we could honestly aid mutual understanding.

Most have perhaps seen the testimoney document I posted here dealing with the "Clouds of Secrecy" issue, I don't need to elaborate further. While on the way to work this morning I was able to catch an interview on Democracy Now with Amy and Juan that dealt with another set of human experiments apparently on the scale of the "air tests". These were tests on unsuspecting CITIZENS many simply in the hospital being treated for other things, that were subjected to this. The timing was great as I had just spent a half hour on the radio discussing geoengineering with call-ins the following night.

The interview was with Eileen Welsome and how things were done like mixing plutonium into childrens oatmeal without parents and childrens knowledge and how hundreds of pregnant women were given "vitamin cocktails" using radioactive iron all unkowingly, etc. etc.etc. the list was again long and involved thousands. It started in the forties and worked it's way up into the 70's at least, perhaps later. One can go to the link here and find out other pertinent details. The book sounds highly interesting and I will probably aquire it.

http://www.democracynow.org/print.pl?sid+04/05/05/1357230

The book recieved a Pulitzer prize for it's investigative work and the interview was just astounding even after having learned of the book Clouds of Secrecy and all of the open air tests. The story about an old black man that was being told by his "doctor' he had schizophrenia for thinking he was being experimented was bizarre when it was confimesd the very doctor making the diagnosis was experimenting on his and sending his tissue sample off. What really really drove the point home though was how both many universities and testing labs with people said to be numbering in the thousands never once revealed these massive programs being somehow brainwashed to satnd by why plutonium was being put in childrens food. I guess this is where I have to wonder about those that would just allow this kind of experimenting on the public to go. As a scientist I have to ask myself could i evr partcipate in allowing something like this. I have an almost impossible time thinking I could morally condone it. But now, after time, I have come to realize it is this very concept that seperates some here and causes the disagreements at least if the heart of the matter is examined. I will leave it at that< I have tried to be honest and non offensive and realize there are limitations on responding though, but put tis out into cyber space for what it's worth. I am about done here.

Regards,

SmT

[letxa2000]

And so it would seem that yet another chemtrail thread is winding down without any proof of chemtrails or even so much as a definition of what a chemtrail is. :(

[halva]

A notice to all "chemtrail" cult promoters:

CEASE AND DESIST PROMOTING THE "CHEMTRAIL" HOAX

I will personally do my best to encourage state and Federal prosecution for as many "chemtrail" promoters as I can. I will recommend they be tried under federal RICO and state criminal syndicalism laws if US citizens, and as enemy combatants if non-US.



A notice to all "chemtrail" cult promoters:

CEASE AND DESIST PROMOTING THE "CHEMTRAIL" HOAX

I will personally do my best to encourage state and Federal prosecution for as many "chemtrail" promoters as I can. I will recommend they be tried under federal RICO and state criminal syndicalism laws if US citizens, and as enemy combatants if non-US.




Hey, Wayne Hall, your spamming will get you nowhere fast, but your desperation to keep real debate from happening stands out like dog's balls.




A notice to all "chemtrail" cult promoters:

CEASE AND DESIST PROMOTING THE "CHEMTRAIL" HOAX

I will personally do my best to encourage state and Federal prosecution for as many "chemtrail" promoters as I can. I will recommend they be tried under federal RICO and state criminal syndicalism laws if US citizens, and as enemy combatants if non-US.



A notice to all "chemtrail" cult promoters:

CEASE AND DESIST PROMOTING THE "CHEMTRAIL" HOAX

I will personally do my best to encourage state and Federal prosecution for as many "chemtrail" promoters as I can. I will recommend they be tried under federal RICO and state criminal syndicalism laws if US citizens, and as enemy combatants if non-US.

[halva]

Once again folk's....... Th Debunker's have rid another forum of "The Chemmie Menace"...........In doing so,we have made it quite clear to the likes of the chemtrail cult member's that their tactic's of subverting whole forum's to propagate their hoax...........Is not acceptable especially in this day and age of science,logic and reasoning......


Thanks to all who have participated in making this another CHEMMIE free board.....

[whitemajikman]

Halva......

Is your behaviour not akin to what a "sore loser does after he has lost all hope and all control".........?


and more importantly shown to be an Anti-american,and a member of an Internet Cult based upon a hoax........

Are you not feeling shame .........?

And maybe a little despair........?

[halva]

Final note on definitions for Letxa:

NASA's LARC (Langley Aerosol Research center) refers to contrails as chemtrails:

"Contrail is a shortened name for condensation trails. Also known as vapor trails, jet trails, chemtrails"

http://asd-www.larc.nasa.gov/GLOBE/resources/contrails_scool.ppt

[foot_soldier]

[letxa2000]

Final note on definitions for Letxa: NASA's LARC (Langley Aerosol Research center) refers to contrails as chemtrails: "Contrail is a shortened name for condensation trails. Also known as vapor trails, jet trails, chemtrails"

Now, I understand that it's late in Greece so maybe you're just tired, but...

1. That doesn't define "chemtrail." It defines what a contrail is and provides some alternative terms that refer to the same thing.

2. It indicates that what you call "chemtrails" simply are contrails.

If you agree with the NASA document that you just cited then you have effectively just admitted that chemtrails are nothing more than contrails. Thank you for making my case!

[foot_soldier]

Let's have more of them. I don't think there are nearly enough of them glomming up our skies. Ordinary contrails, yes indeed. Sign of prosperity and The American Way.

[jayreynolds]

FROM PAGE 121-
letxa wrote:
"If you have something to claim, say it and let the world investigate your claims. Don't just ask silly pre-loaded rhetorical questions and then think you've somehow won a point because no-one wastes time answering questions that, even if answered, would prove nothing since we don't know exactly what you're claiming. Make a statement and let us verify it."

well for starters, this ICu fellow is David Davie, who runs Executive Lanscapes, Ltd. in St Albert, Alberta, where he builds playgrounds.

His claims are here:
http://www.willthomas.net/spraytankers.htm

He lays out the extent of his other "evidences" here:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001728.html

ICU, do you certify that the information you claim in the William Thomas article is 100% accurate?
If not, what is inaccurate?

I have plenty more questions about your claims, but know that Thomas has a background of making inaccurate statements and would like you to clarify if there are any discrepancies in his article.

Dave Davie, THIS ITEM REQUIRES A RESPONSE!

[jayreynolds]

Q- Why does the CTC god Mech, all-seeing/all-knowing, not post a link to the actual source of the contrails photo?
A- He doesn't want you to know a damn thing about either "chemtrails" or contrails. He jsut wants you to go to Alex Jones' site:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002092.html

The Alex deception page doesn't punlish the source either:
http://www.infowars.com/print/misc/gossamer.htm

Can't have people wondering how thousands of subscribers, not to mention many more thousandsof atmospheric scientists, will be reading the actual published research:
http://www.space.com/imageoftheday/image_of_day_040504.html

[Inhale2theChief]

Well a contrail is a Chemtrail,it's H2O vapor correct?H20 is a chemical last I looked ,IUPAC says it is ,must be so.How many times I have to tell you guys this LOL

[letxa2000]

I got a kick out of the advertisements that appeared at the top of my browser while reading page 122 of this thread...



Let's see... Urban Legend, Hoax, chemtrails, urban myth. Good to see that at least Google has chemtrails correctly categorized. :)

[lynn george]

I got a kick out of the advertisements that appeared at the top of my browser while reading page 122 of this thread...



Let's see... Urban Legend, Hoax, chemtrails, urban myth. Good to see that at least Google has chemtrails correctly categorized. :)


SmT: Much better would have been: human guinea pigs, military weapons, chemtrails, geoengineering. But of course we all realize the wagons must circle, the herd must go unknowingly, and the corporate profits must increase to infinity on the backs of those who do our 'consuming of plutonium laced oatmeal.

Johnny" Doctor Openheimer, why is my oatmeal glowing."

Doc.- Eat up Johhny, it will help heal all of those large draining wounds you have, then go run along and play with the rest of our other hundreds of experiments...er a children

But, I don't have any legs Doctor Openheimer, my mom got the special vitamin cocktail and I have only these distorted stumps.

We'll Johnny, it's good you were enrolled in our very special program, if you hadn't had the extra Plutoni...ahm I mean nutrition no telling how you would have turned out.

Thanks doc your the greatest. I love you..

To be continued...

SmT

[lynn george]

Let's see... Urban Legend, Hoax, chemtrails, urban myth. Good to see that at least Google has chemtrails correctly categorized. :)[/quote]


SmT: Much better would have been: human guinea pigs, military weapons, chemtrails, geoengineering. But of course we all realize the wagons must circle, the herd must go unknowingly, and the corporate profits must increase to infinity on the backs of those who do our 'consuming of plutonium laced oatmeal.

Johnny" Doctor Openheimer, why is my oatmeal glowing."

Doc.- Eat up Johhny, it will help heal all of those large draining wounds you have, then go run along and play with the rest of our other hundreds of experiments...er a children

But, I don't have any legs Doctor Openheimer, my mom got the special vitamin cocktail and I have only these distorted stumps.

We'll Johnny, it's good you were enrolled in our very special program, if you hadn't had the extra Plutoni...ahm I mean nutrition no telling how you would have turned out.

Thanks doc your the greatest. I love you..

To be continued...

SmT[/quote]


...and the screams and wailing floated down the hall...

Doc- Ahhh Nurse Bunkie. How's that new car drive you bought with our latest hefty addition to your allowance. And I hear you've got a condo now at the lake....just like the big boy's eh hey hey....?

Nurse Bunkie- I love it doc but sometimes the stress of seeing those suffer and knowing we caused it when we could have....

Sober up nurse and hold it down lest one of the unsuspecting parents finds out. You know your paid well. And besides. Your doing your PATRIOTIC duty to God and your country. So what's the problem. I don't want to sound in any way threatening but remember Nurse Christian. You know.... It was an awful accident and we were all very sorry to see her pass. See it was the emotional trauma of here wanting to tell.. that did it... you know betray the order. You know what I'm saying.

Yes doc. I know we are poisoning, I mean modifying their little bodies so one day we can be a Plutonium enriched society just like our massive 3 day intense training helped us to see. Who were those big guys in dark suits anyway?

They were just priests Bunkie. Now go tend to that little lab rat kid and see why he's puking his guts out?

Yes Doc. Yer the best. A super patriot. I'm gonna nominate you for some kind of award.

Thanks Bunkie. But the brass have plans for me after we have reached saturation with these experiments. The world's gonna be saved by Plutonium nurse and don't you ever forget.

I won't doc. We all love you. Your the best.

Aaahhhahhahhhh. that BURNS>>>>>>!!!! Hold still you little lab rat....

SmT

[lynn george]

Let's see... Urban Legend, Hoax, chemtrails, urban myth. Good to see that at least Google has chemtrails correctly categorized. :)


SmT: Much better would have been: human guinea pigs, military weapons, chemtrails, geoengineering. But of course we all realize the wagons must circle, the herd must go unknowingly, and the corporate profits must increase to infinity on the backs of those who do our 'consuming of plutonium laced oatmeal.

Johnny" Doctor Openheimer, why is my oatmeal glowing."

Doc.- Eat up Johhny, it will help heal all of those large draining wounds you have, then go run along and play with the rest of our other hundreds of experiments...er a children

But, I don't have any legs Doctor Openheimer, my mom got the special vitamin cocktail and I have only these distorted stumps.

We'll Johnny, it's good you were enrolled in our very special program, if you hadn't had the extra Plutoni...ahm I mean nutrition no telling how you would have turned out.

Thanks doc your the greatest. I love you..

To be continued...

SmT[/quote]


...and the screams and wailing floated down the hall...

Doc- Ahhh Nurse Bunkie. How's that new car drive you bought with our latest hefty addition to your allowance. And I hear you've got a condo now at the lake....just like the big boy's eh hey hey....?

Nurse Bunkie- I love it doc but sometimes the stress of seeing those suffer and knowing we caused it when we could have....

Sober up nurse and hold it down lest one of the unsuspecting parents finds out. You know your paid well. And besides. Your doing your PATRIOTIC duty to God and your country. So what's the problem. I don't want to sound in any way threatening but remember Nurse Christian. You know.... It was an awful accident and we were all very sorry to see her pass. See it was the emotional trauma of here wanting to tell.. that did it... you know betray the order. You know what I'm saying.

Yes doc. I know we are poisoning, I mean modifying their little bodies so one day we can be a Plutonium enriched society just like our massive 3 day intense training helped us to see. Who were those big guys in dark suits anyway?

They were just priests Bunkie. Now go tend to that little lab rat kid and see why he's puking his guts out?

Yes Doc. Yer the best. A super patriot. I'm gonna nominate you for some kind of award.

Thanks Bunkie. But the brass have plans for me after we have reached saturation with these experiments. The world's gonna be saved by Plutonium nurse and don't you ever forget.

I won't doc. We all love you. Your the best.

Aaahhhahhahhhh. that BURNS>>>>>>!!!! Hold still you little lab rat....

SmT[/quote]


Doc- Weeeeellll If it isn't my ol pal Major Brass. Great to see you again how's the wife? You look younger and better than ever.

Thanks Opie, you've got a tight ship here, your doing a great job running our lab here while helping to coordinate our hundreds of lackey's, Er I mean professionals that are doing a fantastic job of serving our country.

And God too sir ,don't forget about god.

Yes, Opie god knows you are helping to increase corporate profits and my pension.

What sir I didn't catch that last part.

Never mind Opie. I was quite sorry to hear about Nurse Christian she must not have believed in ah ah god. And her country. But I came to tell you we have approved another major grant this time were going to be adding some atmospheric type studies and we want you to monitor peoples health affects. Were going big this time over millions of people, hundreds of cities it will be great. And I even here their now their talking about trying to modify the weather. Why I think were going to be rolling in the clover promotions and bonuses and....... who's that kid over there staring out the window. She doesn't seem to have hardly any sores like the others.

That's Kimmie Lynn, I don't know she doesn't seem to get sick often as much, her mom was into that herbal crap and silver and junk...ha ha, what a nut.

Yes, that's the old. Were here in with the new. WEll make sure she eats her plutonium laced oatmeal and perhaps give her an extra helping. I HATE it when kids try and buck The Sytem.

You've got it Don, by the way any idea when that job might be opening up. You know the one with the Perks eh, eh, nod , nod, ha haha hah ahahahaahahaha

Soon Opie. We'll keep ya posted.

AAahhhh ahhahhh, and the cries of the children rang down the hall to the sounds of noone listening.

SmT

[airtankerpilot]

That edmonton article is pretty suspect if anyone bothers to read it closely.

it claims that tankers doing circular orbits, somehow made "grids" . Tankers do fly oval orbits often in refueling tracks.

And then it claims the controllers zoomed in on the radar symbol and were able to zoom in on the contrail? What kind of crap is that...

Contrails and clouds DO NOT show up on radar. They never have. A radar could possibly be tuned and designed for it, but that would be pretty useless.

However when there has been metallic particles in the air, such as shuttle debris, that DID show up on weather radars. ATC radars do not display any weather data, they show mainly transponder returns and the data tag associated with it.

And if there were other aircraft refueling, they would turn off transponders because in formations, you only want one aircraft with it on, otherwise traffic proximity alarms would be constantly going off. So it would appear to someone that caught a glance at a radar scope, that it was just the tanker. But there are still zero photos of a KC-135 modified for those operations, because they would have to be., otherwise the fuel system would be contaminiated for it and other aircraft.

I would be on more often, but I am doing a lot of fire work in southern CA right now.

I dont think it would be that strange to have an aircraft that far up north, leaving a trail at 18,000 ft in the winter. Its practically cold enough on the ground in the winter up there for that.

[Bonehead9]

Rocket exhaust does show up on radar, however.

http://www.ov-10bronco.net/users/merlin/Flight/kaboom.htm

[jayreynolds]

"That edmonton article is pretty suspect if anyone bothers to read it closely."

There are other significant problems with it, and I suppose that's why
Dave Davie hasn't responded. Most likely it is a complete fabrication.

[letxa2000]

lynn george: Much better would have been: human guinea pigs, military weapons, chemtrails, geoengineering. But of course we all realize the wagons must circle, the herd must go unknowingly, and the corporate profits must increase to infinity on the backs of those who do our 'consuming of plutonium laced oatmeal.

Right, now Google is part of this corporate conspiracy to conceal chemtrails from the rest of the public along with the mainstream media.

CP Learning (http://www.cplearning.com) is also part of the conspiracy by apparently publishing a science textbook to "condition" children to the acceptability of "chemtrails."

The NOAA is part of the conspiracy by way of their NEXRAD radars which supposedly control the weather (http://www.radarmatrix.com).

NASA is part of the conspiracy because they keep treating contrails as simply contrails rather than recognize them as chemtrails.

The University of Alaska, a civilian university, is part of the conspiracy because it runs HAARP which allows the bad guys to control the weather in conjunction with the NOAA's NEXRAD sites.

The chemical company (or companies!) that would surely be providing the chemicals to be sprayed are obviously part of the conspiracy.

The major airlines, ground crew, maintenance employees, and most airport personnel are apparently part of the conspiracy because many of the pictures that chemtrail believers post of supposed chemtrails appear to be from commercial planes.

The oil companies are part of the conspiracy because they supposedly own HAARP-like patents (so they can control the weather and make it hotter or colder so we spend more on energy).

The administration is apparently part of the conspiracy because it was suggested by the webmaster of RadarMatrix that the California wildfires last year "mysteriously went away" after the president promised California all help possible which I guess means the president gave authorization to change the weather in California to help the firefighters.

This site (http://www.detailshere.com/chemtrails.htm) suggests the pharmaceutical companies must be involved since chemtrails are a plot to coat our lungs to make us more susceptible to some kind of flu which is to be distributed to the population in flu shots! Apparently this new flu epidemic should be well underway by the presidential elections in 2004 (According to this site) towards their final goal of 80% population reduction worldwide. Interestingly, this site recommends people not get flu shots because of this... I hope no-one has suffered or even died because they followed this sites' recommendations of not getting a flu shot.

The conspiracy evidently is international so similar agencies in other countries--including, from what I've read from chemtrail believers, Canada, Mexico, and many European countries--would also have to be part of this conspiracy.

I'm apparently a paid "disinformant" (that's what I've been called by chemtrail believers in the past) so I guess even I am part of the chemtrail conspiracy.

Perhaps the chemtrail believers should tell us: Are they the only ones that are out of the loop and all the efforts of the rest of the world are dedicated to keeping this small group of conspiracy theorists in the dark about something everyone else apparently knows about or is part of?

Chemtrails is just another unfounded conspiracy theory. There is no scientific evidence to support the theory. The magnitude of the conspiracy that I just demonstrated that would be almost impossible to pull it off with so many civilian agencies and organizations having to go along with it. Combine the improbability of such a large conspiracy among civilian organizations PLUS the lack of evidence and you have: The chemtrail hoax &conspiracy theory.

:)

[jayreynolds]

better include 15,000 civilian air traffic controllers in on the conspiracy:
http://www.natca.org/about/members.msp

Oh, and the 11,000 members of the American Meteorological Society, according to chemmie logic they have to all be "in on it".

One of the worst hurdles for this conspiracy to hurdle is that absolute cooperation would have to be maintained between fractious neighbors, sworn enemies, and political opponents. How do the keep Kim jong Il, Fidel Castro, and other world-class bullies quiet?

I've actually heard chemmies state that military people could be ordered to keep silent, but how do you keep a civilian employee quiet? Wel they say, "They are scared for their job." Let me tell you, people get firred and disgruntled all the time, any one of them could speak freely, nothing to lose. "Well, they are all paid off", trouble with that is that there is always some newspaper out there willing to pay someone for telling a pulitzer prize-winning story, then there are movie rights, publishing contracts, and appearances on Jay Leno, etc.

It;s perfectly true that just the need-to-know part of the "chemtrail" hoax debunks itself, and the whole ragged cloth unravels from there.

Where is that Dave Davie, is he the biggest coward of them all, you'd think a conspiracy theorist would be bragging about his evidence direct from an air traffic control tower?

[gaiacomm]

The Declaration of Independence

Action of First Continental Congress, July 4, 2005
The unanimous Declaration of the peoples of the United States of America

WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.
WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men and Women are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness-That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men and Women, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation no such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shown, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards of their future Security. Such has been the patient Sufferance of these Peoples; and such is now the Necessity, which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the past and present Presidents of the United States of America is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpations, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States and its people. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid World.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public Good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing Importance, unless suspended in their Operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the Accommodation of large Districts of People, unless those People would relinquish the Right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them, and formidable to Tyrants only.
He has called together Legislative Bodies at Places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the Depository of their public Records, for the sole Purpose of fatiguing them into Compliance with his Measures.
He has manipulated Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly Firmness his Invasions on the Rights of the People.
He has refused for a long Time, after such Dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the Dangers of Invasion from without, and Convulsions within.
He has endeavored to prevent the Population of these States and its peoples; for that Purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their Migrations hither, and raising the Conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the Tenure of their Offices, and the Amount and Payment of their Salaries.
He has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harass our People, and eat out their Substance.
He has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, without the consent of our Legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a Jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our Laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For quartering large Bodies of Armed Troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States and its peoples:
For manipulating our Trade with all Parts of the World:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us, in many Cases, of the Benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us between States to be tried for pretended Offences:
For abolishing the free System Laws in a neighboring Province, establishing therein an arbitrary Government, and enlarging its Boundaries, so as to render it at once an Example and fit Instrument for introducing the same absolute Rule into these States:
For manipulating our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For manipulating our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with Power to legislate for us in all Cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated pretend Government here, by declaring that he is protecting us and waging War against other Nations.
He has plundered our Seas, ravaged other Nations Coasts, burnt other Nations Towns, and destroyed the Lives of other People.
He is, at this Time, transporting large Armies of Mercenaries to complete the Works of Death, Desolation, and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous Ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized Nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens and from other Nations to bear Arms against other Countries, to become the Executioners of their Friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic Insurrections amongst us.
In every stage of these Oppressions we have petitioned for Redress in the most humble Terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated Injury. A Prince, whose Character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the Ruler of a free People.
We must, therefore, acquiesce in the Necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of Mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace, Friends.
We, therefore, the Representatives of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World for the Rectitude of our Intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these United States of America, solemnly Publish and Declare, That these United States of America and its peoples are, and of Right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all Allegiance to the current Government of the United States of America, and that all political Connection between them and the current Government of the United States of America, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which INDEPENDENT STATES may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

[letxa2000]

The Declaration of Chemtrailers

When in the course of Internet events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the standards of science which have connected them to reality, and to assume among the hoaxes of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of conspiracies and hoaxes entitle them, an uncharacteristic answer to the questions of mankind requires that they should declare the beliefs which impel them to believe in this hoax.

We hold these conspiracies to be self-evident (i.e. no evidence required):

1. That many contrails are not caused by normal jet enginge combustion producing water vapor, but an intentional effort to spray chemicals in the atmosphere. These are chemtrails.

2. That these chemtrails exist even though they are adequately explained by normal atmospheric science and a full understanding of contrails.

3. That these chemtrails exist even though our current cliams would require a conspiracy consisting of hundreds of thousands of people in the NOAA and the National Weather Service, chemical industry, FAA and Air Traffic Control, airport ground crews, airplane mechanics, the media, the political establishment of both major parties, authors of science textbooks, and the knowledge and cooperation of a similar group of agencies in countries around the world.

4. That HAARP is not a tool to further understand the ionosphere but rather a tool to communicate with deeply submerged submarines, engage in mind control, send energy to remote areas, control the weather, protect the U.S. against missiles (SDI), and cause earthquakes in Iran.

5. That NEXRAD is not just a Doppler radar system to detect weather but rather controls and creates weather, working with HAARP.

6. That 1300+ foot buildings could not possibly collapse simply by being impacted by jetliners traveling at hundreds of miles per hour and exploding and subsequently burning.

7. That "pull" means to pull a building down rather than pull a firefighting team out of a burning building.

8. That 9/11 was an inside job and the Bush administration was at least aware of the plans and let them happen or, at worst, directly involved in the attacks.

:)

[ICU812]

You said you’d do it Jay and there you go. Anyone that gets involved in the chemtrails conundrum will have Jay Reynolds release personal information about them on the internet, even though I asked you not to. You certainly are bitter.

Is this a warning from Jay Reynolds to anyone curious about unusual persistent contrails not to look into the possibilities that they are something other than contrails? I think I’ll find some agreement that you’re a little aggressive Jay. It’s enough to scare anyone away, nice work.

You are the same Jay Reynolds that invaded my private email back in March of 02 to warn me not to get involved because…….. and I paste from your email…….””””I'm not yet sure of your belief, but chemtrails has all the elements of a cult, based on a belief system, with layers of control, denial of reality, deliberate deception, but no tangible proof whatsoever.
Many members have a cult history, show signs of mental instability, hold 'magical' belief systems, and use chemtrails to reinforce previously held beliefs or agendas which have no basis in fact.”””””””

Or when it was suggested to you that some of the observations of unusual persistent contrails may be from legitimate high altitude atmospheric programs replied
“”””””Yes, hundreds of scientists from various universities, agencies, and nations worked on those. There are no secrets there, I've met some of the participants via emails.”””””


Or when asked what motivated you, replied………””””””Sounds like you may have read about me already. I know that most people involved in chemtrails are misled by several promoters and deserve to know the truth. Some have written me and thanked me for what I have done to expose the falsehoods. That is enough for me.”””””””

Maybe a multiple personality disorder has got you Jay because you don’t sound like the same person that is satisfied with being thanked……… and then refer to a member of the female population as …….and I quote from you…..”””””bitch”””””. You should be ashamed.

Are you really that surprised that reputable individuals are looking at the issue Jay? Now that documentation has surfaced that geoengineering may be one aspect to the observations of unusual persistent contrails by many of your fellow citizens, you think it would make it easier for somebody from “the department” to come forward and explain……truthfully…..what we’ve been observing.

As you can see I’ve been given a fine personal reference from the whitemagicman, Thanks wmm, for the kind words, back to you later.

Yes I can verify Will’s story. As for his inaccuracies, I’m not responsible for anyone’s journalism skills, you’ll need to decipher this for yourself. However, for either of your faces, and for the reader, let me clarify.

I’ve been fortunate enough in the past to visit the tower. On one occasion I was witness to the sorties of two KC-135’s, petro 011 and 012. For an hour, and along with other activities, we watched their flight over the Edmonton area. The image out the back of these two aircraft, observed as dots and bird feet on radar and as explained by our NavCan guide, were the “contrails” of the aircraft. These “contrails”, now referred to as chemtrails, lasted longer and were more obvious on the radar than commercial aircraft flying in relatively the same airspace.
The radar tech explained to me that the trails were unusual but nothing compared to the activities around the time of the recent summit in Calgary.

When leaving the tower, we were able to see the difference in the atmospheric reaction of the commercial JAL 747 and one of the KC’s that were both flying north of our City.

Now Jay,…….you seem to have access to a lot of government information, why not pull the radar tapes for that day and verify the information……for the public forum.

Why not go through the questions I have proposed and put the answers on your website to show people that you really do care and have researched all the possibilities of the observations of your fellow inhabitants.

At the very least Jay, show some respect, we’re all just here for a short time and it would be nice, even though we disagree on certain aspects, to get along.

OK, whitemagicman……(wmm) I must again thank you for the kind original intro. I hope you were not writing my eulogy, but it sounded so good. It wouldn’t be my choice to advertise myself here, but what’s done is done. As you seem to know, I expend most of my energy supporting communities and building quality outdoor play spaces. I have made thousands of personal contacts in the industry and really try to maintain integrity, but I’m far from perfect…..yet. You make a claim to know me, rather personally I might add. If you do know me that well and are not using Jays intimidating text and threats, I will expect a call from you within a few short days of you reading this post. Obviously you have free access to me.

This will verify that you are not one of the Kooks Jay has described that is involved with the chemtrail investigation.
At this time I will buy lunch and display for your perusal, the documentation that has me understanding that what I’ve observed is a little more than increased air traffic.

I will provide you with an opportunity to read an email, from an individual with a technical degree that claims the results of our precipitation testing is from intentional releases from high altitude aircraft. I will display to you the documentation from our tests, which of course are subject to interpretation of the source of the contamination, but indicate higher than acceptable (EPA) levels of Aluminum and Barium. I will substantiate,…. through you,….. all technical data that I have released to the general public through the internet to date, is the absolute truth.

Let’s see if you’re interested wmm.

I am choosing, by individual request, legalities or personal opinion not to release certain information publicly. I will let you see it all personally however wmm. This whole thing seems rather suspicious, with individuals like Reynolds taking this so violently personal one really needs to step back and decide how safe it is to pursue this any further than minor research.

Wmm, you refer to EPA stats indicating that since the sixties urban precipitation results show that these elevated levels of Al and Ba are not unusual. Are you referring to information based in the Edmonton area? If so can you display the links or information so all can see it please.

Jay comes up with some really cool buried government links sometimes showing anthropogenic influences have increased the amount of these two elements within precipitation on the south side of the border but I’d like to see the progression of presence in our area.

One group in Canada has this to say about the presence of Al and Ba in our precipitation, and if we can get hooked up wmm, you will see that this group is packed with MD’s and Phd’s and individuals that are beginning to talk about some of the observations of many of your neighbours.



“”””””””Advisory # GA1



Date: Friday, July 18, 2003



From: Chief of Field Operations and Research



The accepted EPA standard that is naturally present in the environment (rain) for

Barium is a concentration of 1 ppm. The accepted standard that is naturally present in the environment

(Rain) for aluminum is 10 mg/m 3 (9 PPM).



If you are encountering high rates of both substances in the soil or the collection of Rain there are many reasons for this anomaly. For instance contrails produced by aircraft is a definite culprit; however the most recent conflict in Iraq and the number of sorties flown contaminated the air and the present westerly winds would have carried particles of both Barium and Aluminums in very high concentrations. It may be hard to believe but the winds aloft carry many contaminates around the world which cling to the natural occurring airborne sulphur molecule which gathers moisture in the air. Another suspect would be the recent Volcanic Eruption on Anatahan Island, which is located 80 miles north of Siapan and is part of the Northern Mariana Island Chain in the Pacific. In addition the continuing Mt. Etna eruption and Soufriere Hills, Montserrat northerly/westerly winds again carrying contaminates by the winds aloft (500mb) or approximately 25,000ft. Finally, Bio Mass burning in Africa, South America and even in Canada is occurring on a huge scale and is being dispersed world wide.



Regardless of these events that are occur on a world wide basis you must look towards our southerly neighbours for fossil fuel burning. Also in your own nearby surroundings for the various contaminates in the rain and water.



I suggest the following site subscription (free) to better understand the contamination World Wide. http://www.osei.noaa.gov/ Operational Significant Event Imagery. The writer sincerely hopes this answers your question.

End of email

So what say you whitemagicman, can I be expecting to here from you so you can see the documentation? This will also give you the opportunity to show me what I might be missing or interpreting wrong. I’m just here to learn, that’s why I ask the questions.

There are still people out there that believe there has never been a high altitude release or it’s not possible or nobody would mess with the air that we breathe and that’s OK with me. There are also others that through simple observation or access to information understand that what they’ve witnessed in recent years is not what they’ve seen in the past with respect to contrails. Those ‘others’ like me, simply want access to the truth because after all, It’s not nice to mess with mother nature.

Happy Mothers Day Ladies!!

[letxa2000]

ICU812: Are you really that surprised that reputable individuals are looking at the issue Jay?

What reputable individuals are looking at the issue of chemtrails?

[jayreynolds]

Dave Davie wrote:
"You said you’d do it Jay and there you go. Anyone that gets involved in the chemtrails conundrum will have Jay Reynolds release personal information about them on the internet, even though I asked you not to. You certainly are bitter."

Dave, I'm always amused that "chemtrail activists" are so afraid of having their names mentioned. Real activists in real issues aren't afraid, and if there were a conspiracy of the magnitude you claim, the conspirators
would have no problem identifying you. The only ones you are hiding your identity from are your fellow chemmies. But as to your identification, your friend Willaim Thomas already publicly identiified you, not me

"You are the same Jay Reynolds that invaded my private email back in March of 02 to warn me not to get involved because…….. and I paste from your email…….””””I'm not yet sure of your belief, but chemtrails has all the elements of a cult, based on a belief system, with layers of control, denial of reality, deliberate deception, but no tangible proof whatsoever.
Many members have a cult history, show signs of mental instability, hold 'magical' belief systems, and use chemtrails to reinforce previously held beliefs or agendas which have no basis in fact.”””””””

Dave, If I did send you an email, it wasn't an "invasion", it was communication, and in then two years hence, my conclusions haven't changed, in fact I've determined that you've proven your claims wrong all by yourself.

"Or when it was suggested to you that some of the observations of unusual persistent contrails may be from legitimate high altitude atmospheric programs replied Yes, hundreds of scientists from various universities, agencies, and nations worked on those. There are no secrets there, I've met some of the participants via emails."

Dave, atmospheric research into persistent contrails WOULD necessarily create contrails, nothing unusual about that.

"Are you really that surprised that reputable individuals are looking at the issue Jay? Now that documentation has surfaced that geoengineering may be one aspect to the observations of unusual persistent contrails by many of your fellow citizens, you think it would make it easier for somebody from “the department” to come forward and explain……truthfully…..what we’ve been observing."

No documentation exists that says contrails are geoengineering, the geoengineering ideas were just pipe dreams and are unfeasible, contrails have an overall warming effect anyways, according to most studies.

"Yes I can verify Will's story. As for his inaccuracies, I'm not responsible for anyone's journalism skills, you'll need to decipher this for yourself. However, for either of your faces, and for the reader, let me clarify."

You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth, Dave. You can't verify accuracy and then say you're not responsible for inaccuracy "decipher this for yourself". Your fellow chemmies deserve to be told the truth, there are fabrications in the article and you are afraid to mention them.

"I've been fortunate enough in the past to visit the tower. On one occasion I was witness to the sorties of two KC-135’s, petro 011 and 012. For an hour, and along with other activities, we watched their flight over the Edmonton area. The image out the back of these two aircraft, observed as dots and bird feet on radar and as explained by our NavCan guide, were the “contrails” of the aircraft. These “contrails”, now referred to as chemtrails, lasted longer and were more obvious on the radar than commercial aircraft flying in relatively the same airspace.
The radar tech explained to me that the trails were unusual but nothing compared to the activities around the time of the recent summit in Calgary."

You are lying, Dave. You are saying that contrails of ordinary commercial aircraft show on radar, they do not.

"When leaving the tower, we were able to see the difference in the atmospheric reaction of the commercial JAL 747 and one of the KC's that were both flying north of our City."

What sort of "atmospheric reaction" are you speaking of, Dave?

"Now Jay,you seem to have access to a lot of government information, why not pull the radar tapes for that day and verify the information for the public forum."

This is YOUR conspiracy theory, Dave, YOU are the Canadian citizen. YOU write the FOIA and get the evidence. The fact that you haven't done so tells me you know you have fabricated the story.

"Why not go through the questions I have proposed and put the answers on your website to show people that you really do care and have researched all the possibilities of the observations of your fellow inhabitants."

Quite a few of your questions are already answered on my site. I will go through yours tonight and give you some answers.

"At the very least Jay, show some respect, we’re all just here for a short time and it would be nice, even though we disagree on certain aspects, to get along."

I can't respect a chemmie. They believe in a hoax.


"This will verify that you are not one of the Kooks Jay has described that is involved with the chemtrail investigation."

Dave, Whitey is a kook who has been caught in numerous lies.


"I will provide you with an opportunity to read an email, from an individual with a technical degree that claims the results of our precipitation testing is from intentional releases from high altitude aircraft."

Dave, there are plenty of such people making such claims. They've been making the claims for five years now, and if they had a technical background they sure aren't displaying any results. I've asked the question, "what is the best scientific proof that "chemtrails are anything other than ordinary contrails", scores of times in the 123 pages of this thread, nothing is forthcoming. If this person is real, they would present their case publicly, not hide.

"I will display to you the documentation from our tests, which of course are subject to interpretation of the source of the contamination, but indicate higher than acceptable (EPA) levels of Aluminum and Barium. I will substantiate. all technical data that I have released to the general public through the internet to date, is the absolute truth."

What you have displayed are tests which show higher urban levels of those elements compared to rural levels. If such a geoengineering were taking place, as you claim, the levels would be uniform.
You debunked your own claim, Dave!

"I am choosing, by individual request, legalities or personal opinion not to release certain information publicly. I will let you see it all personally however wmm. This whole thing seems rather suspicious, with individuals like Reynolds taking this so violently personal one really needs to step back and decide how safe it is to pursue this any further than minor research."

What are you hiding from your fellow chemmies, Dave? Because that is what you are doing when you choose to hide something. You hide from scrutiny because your claims can't stand open review.

"Jay comes up with some really cool buried government links sometimes showing anthropogenic influences have increased the amount of these two elements within precipitation on the south side of the border but I'd like to see the progression of presence in our area."
Dave, something linked to on the internet isn't "buried". Aluminum is the third most common element on earth. Barium is in fossil fuels. This is common knowledge.

"One group in Canada has this to say about the presence of Al and Ba in our precipitation, and if we can get hooked up wmm, you will see that this group is packed with MD's and Phd's and individuals that are beginning to talk about some of the observations of many of your neighbours."

Dave, though I can't recall the name of this group(at the moment), I know that the reason you have decided to not mention their name is that they have no credibility. I challenge you to show their name for scrutiny, and not hide yet more from your fellow chemmies.

"Advisory # GA1" my ass.



Advisory # GA1
Date: Friday, July 18, 2003
From: Chief of Field Operations and Research
The accepted EPA standard that is naturally present in the environment (rain) for Barium is a concentration of 1 ppm. The accepted standard that is naturally present in the environment (Rain) for aluminum is 10 mg/m 3 (9 PPM).
If you are encountering high rates of both substances in the soil or the collection of Rain there are many reasons for this anomaly. For instance contrails produced by aircraft is a definite culprit; however the most recent conflict in Iraq and the number of sorties flown contaminated the air and the present westerly winds would have carried particles of both Barium and Aluminums in very high concentrations. It may be hard to believe but the winds aloft carry many contaminates around the world which cling to the natural occurring airborne sulphur molecule which gathers moisture in the air. Another suspect would be the recent Volcanic Eruption on Anatahan Island, which is located 80 miles north of Siapan and is part of the Northern Mariana Island Chain in the Pacific. In addition the continuing Mt. Etna eruption and Soufriere Hills, Montserrat northerly/westerly winds again carrying contaminates by the winds aloft (500mb) or approximately 25,000ft. Finally, Bio Mass burning in Africa, South America and even in Canada is occurring on a huge scale and is being dispersed world wide. Regardless of these events that are occur on a world wide basis you must look towards our southerly neighbours for fossil fuel burning. Also in your own nearby surroundings for the various contaminates in the rain and water. I suggest the following site subscription (free) to better understand the contamination World Wide. http://www.osei.noaa.gov/ Operational Significant Event Imagery. The writer sincerely hopes this answers your question.
End of email

"There are still people out there that believe there has never been a high altitude release or it's not possible or nobody would mess with the air that we breathe and that's OK with me. There are also others that through simple observation or access to information understand that what they've witnessed in recent years is not what they've seen in the past with respect to contrails. Those & others like me, simply want access to the truth because after all, It's not nice to mess with mother nature."

No, Dave, you don't want "access to the truth", as you claim. In just this one message we have you hiding information you say proves your claims, contradicting yourself, and citing bogus unnamed sources just like chemmies always do. You have done this because you are a liar, and because you know damn well if checked out, what you say will be found to be false. This is standard chemmie modus operandi.

The bonus though, is that you debunked yourself, and I found that a lot of fun.

[halva]

The geoengineering ideas were just pipe dreams and are unfeasible.

[halva]

Once again folk's....... Th Debunker's have rid another forum of "The Chemmie Menace"...........In doing so,we have made it quite clear to the likes of the chemtrail cult member's that their tactic's of subverting whole forum's to propagate their hoax...........Is not acceptable especially in this day and age of science,logic and reasoning......


Thanks to all who have participated in making this another CHEMMIE free board.....

[whitemajikman]

Dave, Whitey is a kook who has been caught in numerous lies.




Jay do you really think that it is you that the chemmies are afraid of......?


If so you are in the dark about a lot of things.......

So I will take your statement as you wish it to be taken.....

Ranting's of a lunatic.....



But first let's be clear about something......

I have not attacked you Jay on this 123 page thread......

In fact ,Now I see you for what you are.....



And as for Lexta.....

If you really are Interested in the truth.....

Jay is the farthest thing from the Truth.....

And a little bit of friendly advice........

Jay has no friends or colleagues.....

Jay likes to feed his Ego....

In fact his Ego is more important then you,me or even the Issues.....

Jay is the Biggest reason why this Hoax is not Dead.......

As you can see Without the chemtrail Hoax,Jay has little to live for....

For him It is an obsession.....pure and simple.


So Watch your back Lexta ......Jay will not hesitate to call you a kook if you start cramping his style.....

Because Jay's Paranoia is legendary.......

As is his Arrogance.....

But not for long........

Because this Time .....The predator is now the prey.......

[halva]

綠色和平成員須黎軍登上了遠洋船"極地曙光號"以直接的行動要求巴西政府不要批准種植基因改造大豆。行動於4月20日在巴西展開。

我們為什麼要求巴西不要種植基因改造大豆？消費者要吃不受基因改造污染的食物，必需有大豆主產國供應非基因 改造大豆。現在，其他的大豆主產國家（美國和阿根廷）已經大量種植基因改造大豆，巴西是全世界第二大的大豆 生產國家，如果也批准種植基因改造大豆，我們要吃上一口不受基因改造污染的食物，將會變得更為 困難！

另外一個重要原因是中國每年從巴西進口大量大豆。眾所周知，中國是大豆的故鄉，擁有全世界最豐富的大豆遺傳 資源，綠色和平和中國的專家擔心大量進口基因改造大豆有可能污染中國的大豆及大豆遺傳資源。如果巴西批准種 植基因改造大豆，將大大增加中國大豆受污染的風險！

巴西過去一直禁止種植基因改造大豆，但去年卻批准臨時種植。可以說，巴西正處於是否正式批准基因改造大豆的 十字路口。

在這關鍵時候，綠色和平的成員須黎軍登上了"極地曙光號"，以直接的行動要求巴西政府不要批准種植基因改造大豆。我們呼籲更多人關注他的行動，支援"極地曙光號"防止基因改造作物擴散的行動，因為我們需要從源頭上減少中國大豆受到污染的威脅，因為這個世界需要更多非基 因改造的淨土！

綠色和平在行動：中國男孩海上日記

4月8日
…… 看到了是她，就是她，跟照片裡的一樣，但更大、更漂亮。我興奮地登上船去，把行李脫放在甲板上，與來歡迎我 們的船員男的握手、女的親吻，簡短的自我介紹 然後抱著相機上竄下跳，把甲板上的一切都看了個夠，"這是我們的船，我們綠色和平自己的船！"我幾乎要哭了。

4月20日
… … 這就是我第一次親身進行的綠色和平非暴力直接行動，簡單、快捷而又友好，但卻是經過精心策劃、艱苦訓練和密 切配合才完成的。……我們要表達的資訊：基因改造生物需要標識，公眾有權作出知情選擇，公眾有權對 基因改造說不，也必須保護我們的食物和生態系統不受基因污染。

須黎軍介紹
1979年出生於山水甲天下的桂林，並在這裡長大；98年保送廈門大學生命科學學院學習生物學；99年暑期 參加第四屆全國大學生綠色營；2000年9月與志同道合的幾位同學共同創辦廈門大學綠野協會（一個熱愛自然 、保護環境的大學生社團）；畢業後於2002年進入珍古道爾研究會下的根與芽環境教育專案北京辦公室工作， 根與芽是一個全球性的青少年環境與人道主義教育專案；2003年8月加入綠色和平，從事基因改造生物和可持 續農業專案方面的工作。

喜歡自然以及中國的傳統知識和文化，愛好很廣泛，包括觀鳥、認植物、拉二胡、學習中醫等等。在知道將參與綠 色和平"極地曙光號"的直接行動時，須須激動地說："這是我一直的夢想呀！"

"極地曙光號"介紹
"極地曙光號"以前是一艘捕獵海豹船，綠色和平曾經阻攔這艘船給法國運送在南極建設飛機號道的設備，因為修建這條跑道會破 壞企鵝的棲息地。綠色和平於1995年購買這艘船，將它改裝為破冰船，並名為"極地曙光號"。

"極地曙光號"第一次行動就是著名的事件，它成功地阻止了殼牌石油公司將報廢的鑽井平臺"沈入北海。在 年，"極地曙光號"成為人類歷史上首度成功環繞南極 航行的船，但是這次航程之所以成功，是因為原來連接 與南極大陸的米厚的大冰塊因氣候變化而崩塌。自此，這艘破冰船多次協助綠色和平見證氣候變化對人類和動物生 存家園的破壞。

"極地曙光號"的最新任務是在巴西展開反對基因改造大豆的行動。


相關連結

須黎軍船上日記
保護大豆的故鄉－中國
保護大豆故鄉 共建生物安全長城 (簡體)
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[airtankerpilot]

Your story is still suspect, because ATC terminals operate primarily from transponder returns. They can look for what is called "skin paints" which is a raw radar return, but its the transponder signal that is on the terminal display.

If a plane without a transponder is flying, ATC often will not even know it is there, unless the plane tells them specifically exactly where it is, then the controller can look for it.

Some kind of metallic emissions would not be showing up, now maybe they let the computer track the plane with a plot showing the path it is taking.

But for seeing "chemtrails" on a ATC radar, that is silly.

And not to mention the ATC Control towers I have been in dont even know what is flying way above them, or far outside their airspace . Towers only control a small area, and their airspace does not go very high either. They get a filtered radar data feed, which probably will not show any traffic up high, because towers do not need to know about it.

[lynn george]

Well, Nurse bunkie carry on :D

I understand you are doing what you feel is right.

It's been fun batting the ball back and forth, but I think anyone really interested in these climate modification experiments is going to find out anyway. But keep it up. At least maybe you can delay the knowledge leaking to the masses. I want to discuss more of the science of what is being done in our atmospheric modification efforts as concerns particulate spreading so I am, shall we say.... outa here. Bye bye bunkies. On to greener pastures. Look UP Arianna! Climate MODIFICATION is REAL and ONGOING! And everyone else. And be looking for the new geoengineering stamps. Can yous say....FIBRATUS? Clouds are after all a part of evolution. Right?

SmT

[airtankerpilot]

Well, there is still no evidence of anything, nor have any chemmies been able to refute anything by meteorlogists or pilot, or anyone involved in those fields.

No samples, no photos of any modified aircraft, no chemmies with aviation knowledge (however a plethora of ignorance about aviation is common).

I have done cloud seeding flights. If chemmies would look up any of those, they would realize it is nothing that leaves trails anyways.

maybe chemmies will try to learn about aviation and meteorlogy, instead of promoting sketching stories and distorting science.

Not a single chemmie can be considered an expert in aviation or meteorlogist, and not an single expert in those fields is a chemmie

[letxa2000]

airtankerpilot: Not a single chemmie can be considered an expert in aviation or meteorlogist, and not an single expert in those fields is a chemmie

Exactly right. Why is it that it seems that the majority of us that take issue with chemtrail believers are pilots--people who spend time up there in the atmosphere while it would appear that all the chemtrail believers are ground-based observers that lack knowlege of atmospheric science and even basic meteorology. In all frankness, it would appear none of them have any qualifications to make such radical conclusions in areas of science which they simply are not educated in. The sky is a big mystery to them and they fantasize about those things which they cannot touch and cannot understand.


lynn george: I want to discuss more of the science of what is being done in our atmospheric modification efforts as concerns particulate spreading so I am, shall we say.... outa here.

Funny you want to leave to talk about the science since you don't seem to have once addressed the topic of science during your stay here. The time I presented scientifically sound answers regarding your contrail picture of January 29th you simply exploded and said that my charts proved nothing, yet you didn't bring any science to the table yourself.

Why don't you discuss "the science" here? It'd be a first...

[jayreynolds]

well it looks like the chemmies have run away. halva has gone to the shelter of Eggasprayer News, and is claiming:

"Big Bunny, now that the fight at Arianna's has come to a close, my only comment is that I don't know whether you are right or wrong.

I don't know whether the debunkers are the cause or the effect of the self-censorship in the 'scientific community'."
http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=Discussion&action=display&num=1078071155

"Come to a close", eh Wayne?
Closed when you cut-and-run, old bean.

'Big Bunny' says:

"If you are looking for a way to reach the mainstream then draw on the more startling evidence of the medical and chemical impacts of this activity. For example if you tell the average person that this aerosol activity is occurring at 40,000 feet the reaction will generally be disbelief and then indifference - the wind blows it away. But if you tell them that the sulfates in the air when mixed with water vapour so as to form sulphuric acid are the reason that their car is rusting away in the street outside their house or that this is the reason that the paint is peeling off their house I suggest that the reaction would be disbelief followed by outrage at the government for allowing this situation to continue without warning them."

What a moron. if the wind blows "aerosol" away, it would blow sulphur away too. Besides, everybody knows the salt is what rusts their car out.
Probably a conspiracy theory there too. LOL :lol:

Hey, Wayne, best of luck next time. You'll always be a loser though, when you believe in a lie. Mark my words, science will never accept the chemtrails hoax, not in a free society. The scientific method prevents it like a vaccine prevents smallpox.

[foot_soldier]

Here's a present for you. Enjoy! Great stuff!

Global Warming Solved
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_042204/content/earth_day_update.guest.html

Are We All Liberals Now?
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/10/124917.shtml

[foot_soldier]

One more. This one's especially eloquent, as befits a man of your obviously superior intellectual stature.

The Reasons Why Global Warming is a Hoax
http://www.conspairacy.com/mainthemes%5Cgwhoax.html

[halva]

I see that you are still stalking, Reynolds.

Your original harassment at Arianna's could perhaps from your viewpoint be justified by the fact that it was HERE, not somewhere else, that I was posting.

Why keep reminding the world in this way that there are so few forums remaining at which you are allowed to post?

[jayreynolds]

I see that you are still stalking, Reynolds.

Your original harassment at Arianna's could perhaps from your viewpoint be justified by the fact that it was HERE, not somewhere else, that I was posting.

Why keep reminding the world in this way that there are so few forums remaining at which you are allowed to post?

"Stalking", 'harassment"?

My what a little victim you try and sound like, poor little Wayne Hall!

I guess you figure nobody will go back to your first post on this thread, 124 pages of it, and find your public challenge to debate:

"It is time for there to be exposure, and honest public debate, about what is ALREADY being done by the proponents of geoengineering 'solutions'."

Wayne, you've been on the run ever since.
Running away, spamming the forum, and not answering pertinent questions. Not honest debate at all, running from exposure, that's the cock-roach in you chemmies coming out.

So don't try to play some 'victim' game now, you started it and made the public call to debate.

[jayreynolds]

Lest we forget, halva(wayne hall) hasn't addressed these basic questions for 124 pages.......

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. Why can't these basic questions be answered?

[halva]

[quote=jayreynolds]A notice to all "chemtrail" cult promoters:

CEASE AND DESIST PROMOTING THE "CHEMTRAIL" HOAX

I will personally do my best to encourage state and Federal prosecution for as many "chemtrail" promoters as I can. I will recommend they be tried under federal RICO and state criminal syndicalism laws if US citizens, and as enemy combatants if non-US.



A notice to all "chemtrail" cult promoters:

CEASE AND DESIST PROMOTING THE "CHEMTRAIL" HOAX

I will personally do my best to encourage state and Federal prosecution for as many "chemtrail" promoters as I can. I will recommend they be tried under federal RICO and state criminal syndicalism laws if US citizens, and as enemy combatants if non-US.

[halva]

I have withdrawn from the debate with you here.

If you continue to try to debate with me from this forum all that you are showing is your own inability to retain access to other forums owing to your record and habits.

Only a fool would continue forever to play you at the only game you know how to play, when the problem with you and people like you is political and is not won or lost by confining oneself to the venues you like to frequent and can frequent.

[gaiacomm]

The Declaration of Independence

Action of First Continental Congress, July 4, 2005
The unanimous Declaration of the peoples of the United States of America

WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.
WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men and Women are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness-That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men and Women, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation no such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shown, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards of their future Security. Such has been the patient Sufferance of these Peoples; and such is now the Necessity, which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the past and present Presidents of the United States of America is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpations, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States and its people. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid World.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public Good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing Importance, unless suspended in their Operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the Accommodation of large Districts of People, unless those People would relinquish the Right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them, and formidable to Tyrants only.
He has called together Legislative Bodies at Places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the Depository of their public Records, for the sole Purpose of fatiguing them into Compliance with his Measures.
He has manipulated Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly Firmness his Invasions on the Rights of the People.
He has refused for a long Time, after such Dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the Dangers of Invasion from without, and Convulsions within.
He has endeavored to prevent the Population of these States and its peoples; for that Purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their Migrations hither, and raising the Conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the Tenure of their Offices, and the Amount and Payment of their Salaries.
He has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harass our People, and eat out their Substance.
He has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, without the consent of our Legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a Jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our Laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For quartering large Bodies of Armed Troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States and its peoples:
For manipulating our Trade with all Parts of the World:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us, in many Cases, of the Benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us between States to be tried for pretended Offences:
For abolishing the free System Laws in a neighboring Province, establishing therein an arbitrary Government, and enlarging its Boundaries, so as to render it at once an Example and fit Instrument for introducing the same absolute Rule into these States:
For manipulating our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For manipulating our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with Power to legislate for us in all Cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated pretend Government here, by declaring that he is protecting us and waging War against other Nations.
He has plundered our Seas, ravaged other Nations Coasts, burnt other Nations Towns, and destroyed the Lives of other People.
He is, at this Time, transporting large Armies of Mercenaries to complete the Works of Death, Desolation, and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous Ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized Nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens and from other Nations to bear Arms against other Countries, to become the Executioners of their Friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic Insurrections amongst us.
In every stage of these Oppressions we have petitioned for Redress in the most humble Terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated Injury. A Prince, whose Character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the Ruler of a free People.
We must, therefore, acquiesce in the Necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of Mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace, Friends.
We, therefore, the Representatives of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World for the Rectitude of our Intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these United States of America, solemnly Publish and Declare, That these United States of America and its peoples are, and of Right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all Allegiance to the current Government of the United States of America, and that all political Connection between them and the current Government of the United States of America, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which INDEPENDENT STATES may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

[jayreynolds]

[quote="halva"]I have withdrawn from the debate with you here.[quote]

"Withdrawn"?

Face it Wayne, you ran away from debate quivering like a jellyfish, squealing like a stuck pig, and with your tail between your legs like a
puppy. You're simply not able to debate the issue and lost it by default.

You're right about one thing, only a foolish pig would enter the slaughterhouse thinking he wouldn't be turned into pork chops.

Ha! :lol:

[halva]

I have withdrawn from the debate with you here.

If you continue to try to debate with me from this forum all that you are showing is your own inability to retain access to other forums owing to your record and habits.

Only a fool would continue forever to play you at the only game you know how to play, when the problem with you and people like you is political and is not won or lost by confining oneself to the venues you like to frequent and can frequent.

[jayreynolds]

Wayne wrote:
"If you continue to try to debate with me from this forum all that you are showing is your own inability to retain access to other forums owing to your record and habits."

Wayne, it's clear that you have run away from debate here since page one. You tried your best to have me banned from this forum, as you have lobbied to have me banned from every other forum where I have challenged you. This forum is a free and open place for debate, a place not controlled by the chemtrail cult to which you pander, and as such you weren't able to deny me speech.

Lacking a 'final solution' to the Jay Reynolds problem, you simply had no choice but to run away to a forum which doesn't allow debate on the chemtrail hoax BY ANYONE. A forum which is totalitarian in nature, a place which will never be the home for truth. :shock:

I agree, that is where you belong, with your own kind. :lol:

bye-bye!

[gaiacomm]

Goodbye JR!

[halva]

deleted

[halva]

I will continue seeking to have you banned wherever I can.

It is now you who are now trying to play the victim. Given the free-speech fetishism that is still so current in the USA, you will convince some retards, who forget that free speech presupposes at minimum a temporary cessation of hostilities and agreed framework of debate. War and free speech do not go together.

The fact that you respect neither the rules of war nor the rules of peaceful 'fair play' makes it obligatory for every democrat to marginalise you, censor you and silence you to the best of his/her ability.

During the Cold War Americans understood that democracy is incompatible with tolerance towards the enemies of democracy. That is a lesson I learned from the USA at that time.

Democracy is based on exclusion. Exclusion of those who cannot or will not behave as equals among equals.

All this is repetition of points made before, but repetition is something you obviously don't mind.

Personally, I have other demands on my time. I am not available for debate with you.

[jayreynolds]

"Democracy is based on exclusion"?

"free speech fetishism"?

"I will continue seeking to have you banned wherever I can."

You wish me banned for thoughtcrimes and wordcrimes, eh, Wayne?


'War is peace, ignorance is strength, freedom is slavery.'



Man your wacked.

[gaiacomm]

Good-Bye JR and your clan!

[jayreynolds]

I see this thread still generates over 75 page views/day, I'll reiterate the questions which have gone unanswered for 125 pages, and ask those 'on the fence' to carefully consider just why.

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. Why can't these basic questions be answered?

[gaiacomm]

JR:

Its just you and me now!

Nobody cares anymore about what you think!


Chemtrails are real and Contrails are real as for their creation ans causes well I suggest you wait a bit and the evidence you seek will be brought to light but not in your timeframe!


Good-Bye JR and your clan!

[jayreynolds]

want to see one sick chemmie?
Meet 'mark sky':

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002100.html

Some of you chemtrail promoters try to rationalize that you haven't hurt anyone. 'mark sky'(pre-chemtrails) used to be a normal person. He was in a suggestive state after the death of his mother, and when people started the "chemtrails-death from the sky" hoax he jumped over the edge and into the insanity of the cult. The result is a man that spends hours each day gazing at his navel and writing stuff calling Jesus Christ a "bass ter d son."

Think about it, and stop promoting the hoax. It hurts people.

[gaiacomm]

JR:

Its just you and me now!

Nobody cares anymore about what you think!


Chemtrails are real and Contrails are real as for their creation ans causes well I suggest you wait a bit and the evidence you seek will be brought to light but not in your timeframe!


Good-Bye JR and your clan!

[gaiacomm]

END OF THREAD! :(

[letxa2000]

There is no proof "chemtrails" are anything but contrails. I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

[gaiacomm]

END OF THREAD! :(

[halva]

This text by Letxa, including the (for the uninitiated amazing and incomprehensible) implication that whoever believes aerial spraying is being carried out for climate mitigation purposes must also believe that Bush did the 9/11 terrorist strike to himself, is a valuable public document.

WH


The Declaration of Chemtrailers

When in the course of Internet events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the standards of science which have connected them to reality, and to assume among the hoaxes of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of conspiracies and hoaxes entitle them, an uncharacteristic answer to the questions of mankind requires that they should declare the beliefs which impel them to believe in this hoax.

We hold these conspiracies to be self-evident (i.e. no evidence required):

1. That many contrails are not caused by normal jet enginge combustion producing water vapor, but an intentional effort to spray chemicals in the atmosphere. These are chemtrails.

2. That these chemtrails exist even though they are adequately explained by normal atmospheric science and a full understanding of contrails.

3. That these chemtrails exist even though our current cliams would require a conspiracy consisting of hundreds of thousands of people in the NOAA and the National Weather Service, chemical industry, FAA and Air Traffic Control, airport ground crews, airplane mechanics, the media, the political establishment of both major parties, authors of science textbooks, and the knowledge and cooperation of a similar group of agencies in countries around the world.

4. That HAARP is not a tool to further understand the ionosphere but rather a tool to communicate with deeply submerged submarines, engage in mind control, send energy to remote areas, control the weather, protect the U.S. against missiles (SDI), and cause earthquakes in Iran.

5. That NEXRAD is not just a Doppler radar system to detect weather but rather controls and creates weather, working with HAARP.

6. That 1300+ foot buildings could not possibly collapse simply by being impacted by jetliners traveling at hundreds of miles per hour and exploding and subsequently burning.

7. That "pull" means to pull a building down rather than pull a firefighting team out of a burning building.

8. That 9/11 was an inside job and the Bush administration was at least aware of the plans and let them happen or, at worst, directly involved in the attacks.

:)

[jayreynolds]

Here's a family where the grandparents are "chemmies".

The grandparents have been removed from contact with the grandchildren because they were inculcating them into the cult.

Sounds to me like everybody loses in this case.

Stop promoting the "chemtrail" hoax, you are hurting people, even children and families.
========================
From: "Hilda Coxe" <coxe2004@s...>
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 2:03 pm
Subject: re: we were "fired" from caring for grandkids because we are Nuts!
HELLO,
I just wanted to let you know and the group that my daughter-in-law
convinced my son to let us go (my husband and I) because we kept talking about
chem-trails and taking pics.....Our hearts are broken because we will miss our 2
grandchildren.......She would rather have them in the care of strangers then
with their own grandparents...cause we are Nuts.
Flowermound is close to Dallas Fort Worth Airport...The chem trails have
been horrible there...We didn't want the kids exposed to it so we kept them
inside.
Also there was this white stuff like fuzzy stuff flying all over the air for
weeks........It would attach itself to everything outside of their
house.....when it did it attach itself it looked like webs everywhere......I
will miss my son and grandchildren but I won't back down and say that what I see
and know is Crazy my husband niether...Hilda and Charlie

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/message/111332

[halva]

This text by Letxa, including the (for the uninitiated amazing and incomprehensible) implication that whoever believes aerial spraying is being carried out for climate mitigation purposes must also believe that Bush did the 9/11 terrorist strike to himself, is a valuable public document.

WH


The Declaration of Chemtrailers

When in the course of Internet events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the standards of science which have connected them to reality, and to assume among the hoaxes of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of conspiracies and hoaxes entitle them, an uncharacteristic answer to the questions of mankind requires that they should declare the beliefs which impel them to believe in this hoax.

We hold these conspiracies to be self-evident (i.e. no evidence required):

1. That many contrails are not caused by normal jet enginge combustion producing water vapor, but an intentional effort to spray chemicals in the atmosphere. These are chemtrails.

2. That these chemtrails exist even though they are adequately explained by normal atmospheric science and a full understanding of contrails.

3. That these chemtrails exist even though our current cliams would require a conspiracy consisting of hundreds of thousands of people in the NOAA and the National Weather Service, chemical industry, FAA and Air Traffic Control, airport ground crews, airplane mechanics, the media, the political establishment of both major parties, authors of science textbooks, and the knowledge and cooperation of a similar group of agencies in countries around the world.

4. That HAARP is not a tool to further understand the ionosphere but rather a tool to communicate with deeply submerged submarines, engage in mind control, send energy to remote areas, control the weather, protect the U.S. against missiles (SDI), and cause earthquakes in Iran.

5. That NEXRAD is not just a Doppler radar system to detect weather but rather controls and creates weather, working with HAARP.

6. That 1300+ foot buildings could not possibly collapse simply by being impacted by jetliners traveling at hundreds of miles per hour and exploding and subsequently burning.

7. That "pull" means to pull a building down rather than pull a firefighting team out of a burning building.

8. That 9/11 was an inside job and the Bush administration was at least aware of the plans and let them happen or, at worst, directly involved in the attacks.

:)

[halva]

The dispute over genetically modified foods is much more visible than chemtrails/geoengineering.

The United States and European Union have different policies over labelling of genetically modified products. The US government seeks (and apparently has) the backing of the WTO for the purpose of forcing the Europeans to change their policies on labelling of genetically modified products.

Just imagine that every time the question was raised: "Are genetically modified foods safe for human consumption, or are they possibly a threat to health and are genetically modified organisms a possible threat to the environment?", the 'answer' that we got was: "You can't prove that the ingredients of this product are geneticallly modified."

That, more or less, is the prevailing situation with chemtrails/geoengineering.

[jayreynolds]

The dispute over genetically modified foods is much more visible than chemtrails/geoengineering.

The United States and European Union have different policies over labelling of genetically modified products. The US government seeks (and apparently has) the backing of the WTO for the purpose of forcing the Europeans to change their policies on labelling of genetically modified products.

Just imagine that every time the question was raised: "Are genetically modified foods safe for human consumption, or are they possibly a threat to health and are genetically modified organisms a possible threat to the environment?", the 'answer' that we got was: "You can't prove that the ingredients of this product are geneticallly modified."

That, more or less, is the prevailing situation with chemtrails/geoengineering.

Sorry, Wayne, the question over whether, or not something is 'genetically modified' comes down to a matter of science. Genetic testing can determine, in many cases, the provenance of an organism.

In the same way, science could be used to prove/disprove the "chemtrails" hoax. Year after year, some newbie comes up with the brilliant and novel idea that your cult should get together and hire an airplane to go sample a putative "chemtrail".

Of course, since the leadership knows full well that "chemtrails" are simply ordinary contrails, the upstart notion is put to bed and quickly forgotten in a barrage of anti-bush, anti-jewish, anti-pharmaceutical, and anti- whatever, the latest round of fear mongering about drought, etc.

Is it really any wonder no scientists give you any credibility at all????

No, of course not.

You creeps will travel hundreds of miles and stay up all hours to hear some chemtrail promoter, buy T-shirts and take pictures of clouds, and bug the hell out of local TV weathermen, but you aren't even willing to go a mere six miles above your head to find out what really flies there.

You are all a bunch of phoney-baloney people, losers and lamers.

[halva]

I see this thread still generates over 75 page views/day, I'll reiterate the remarks I made, and ask those 'on the fence' to imagine that every time the question was raised: "Are genetically modified foods safe for human consumption, or are they possibly a threat to health?", the 'answer' was: "You can't prove that the ingredients of this product are genetically modified."

[liakopoulos]

HEY JAY, GUESS WHO IS BACK...

[liakopoulos]

HEY JAY ,GUESS WHO PAYED HIS RESPECTS TO YAM VASHED HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL IN JERUSALEM......HAVE YOU EVER BEEN THERE? WHAT A SILLY QUESTION...OFCOURSE YOU HAVE.

[liakopoulos]

THE QUESTION IS.... :IS GEORGE BUSH A JEW?

[halva]

A welcome burst of relative or partial honesty from Archon, a (to me) politically unsympathetic debunker at CTC:

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/000062.html

"The particles used within these applications (mainly titanium, alumina and barium carbon composites) are not detrimental to humans when deagglomerated into the upper atmosphere. It's a barrier against UV and a 'overcast' for the upper atmosphere. The reason the UN and NATO are not divulging this information is simply because the accelerated degenerization of the Ozone layer is quite alarming. I assure you though, these 'contrails' you see are not affecting you or your loved ones."

"Our ozone layer is now degenerating extremely rapidly... and all we can really do is layer our global atmosphere with reflective composites. Now, I realize that you want to know what's going on, but 'they' aren't going to tell you, because the truth is, IT'S NOT GOOD."

WH: So, "contrails" containing particles of titanium, alumina and barium carbon composites.

(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Not that I care. The contrail/chemtrail argument is stupid anyway.



I see this thread still generates over 75 page views/day, I'll reiterate the remarks I made, and ask those 'on the fence' to imagine that every time the question was raised: "Are genetically modified foods safe for human consumption, or are they possibly a threat to health?", the 'answer' was: "You can't prove that the ingredients of this product are genetically modified."

[halva]

Why not challenge Archon to an on-line debate somewhere. Raynolds? I'll come and watch, and invite others too.

He's not a person you'd be in political disagreement with in any way. He's just less of a liar than you.

It's about time all you George Bush supporters started to become a little more like Archon and less like Reynolds. It would be better for everyone, yourselves included.

[jayreynolds]

"Why not challenge Archon to an on-line debate somewhere. Raynolds?"

Bring it on, right here, right now.

Sounds like just another "whistlebunker" as eggboy would call it.

Is he David Stewart or Jim Phelps?

Hey take the advice of your wife, Wayne, "chemtrails" are just a hoax, nice to hear my wife agrees with yours on that!
!
"I`ve almost convinced my wife about the actual existence of chemtrails, but she says that the kind of celestial phenomena I point out to her has been around for as long as she can remember."

Wayne Hall- "I tend to hear the same thing from my wife. This despite the fact that she has been present at two public meetings we arranged this year and last, in Aigina, and in Athens, Greece, on the subject of chemtrails and climate change."

So, the truth really is that the meetings were about "Climate Change" and the fact really is that you are trying unsuccesssfully to piggyback the "chemtrail' hoax onto that, isn't it, Wayne?

[halva]

Do you want to debate Archon, Reynolds?

I'll post your challenge at CTC if you do.

[halva]

Of course he's really on your side politically and he may back down from the challenge out of a desire to help you save face.

We shall see.

Nobody who has been spared the particular socialising experience of chemtrail debunkerdom could possibly understand your conception of "chemtrails" "piggybacking" climate change. The subjects are thematically related.

Nor could they understand Letxa's view that if one thinks particulate spraying is occurring as a measure against climate change (or ozone depletion or whatever) one must also think that George Bush staged 9/11 against himself.

These are the modes of thought of self-referential cultists, who simply assume that the associations of ideas existing in their own minds also exist in the minds of others.

[jayreynolds]

Wayne Hall wrote:
"Nobody who has been spared the particular socialising experience of chemtrail debunkerdom could possibly understand your conception of "chemtrails" "piggybacking" climate change. The subjects are thematically related."

Wayne, I asked you a direct question, and your less-than-candid response tells me I was correct. You lied to your chemmie friends at CTC when you told them the suppposed meetings in Greece were about "chemtrails", or that Dr. Nikos Katsaros supported the idea at all.

You displayed two pictures of Katsaros as if he were a chemmie.

I knew that somehing was fishy when I wrote Katsaros and he replied, "No scientific evidence exists whatsoever for "chemtrails".

So the truth is you lied to all your friends at Chemtrailcentral, there is no movement against "chemtrails" in Greece, turns out even your own wife scoffs the idea.

You are just the lone nervous nelly nut who shows up at public meetings on other subjects, then you take a picture and try to portray the meeting to us as if "chemtrails" were discussed.

The truth is, you were the only one talking about "chemtrails", and the participants shot you down!

The truth is, not a single other confirmable person in Greece has ever backed up your stories, you are guilty of gross fabrication, Wayne!

What a joke you are, what a puny little liar, Wayne Hall!

Wayne Hall wrote:
"Nor could they understand Letxa's view that if one thinks particulate spraying is occurring as a measure against climate change (or ozone depletion or whatever) one must also think that George Bush staged 9/11 against himself."


Now hold on just one minute there Wayne, there you go again, caught in another lie.

For years now you have been promoting the "Bush did 9/11" hoax as portrayed by Michael Ruppert.

A google of the words halva and ruppert take you across the web with hits:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=halva+ruppert

and this image from ruppert's site speaks volumes about typical chemmie gullibility-



SO WHAT"S YOUR PROBLEM< WAYNE< WHY CAN"T YOU KEEP YOUR LIES STRAIGHT OLD MAN??????

[jayreynolds]

Of course he's really on your side politically and he may back down from the challenge out of a desire to help you save face.

We shall see.

Looks like your latest bohdisattva has gotten tripped up in a lie already.

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/002259.html

[halva]

You lied to your chemmie friends at CTC when you told them the suppposed meetings in Greece were about "chemtrails", or that Dr. Nikos Katsaros supported the idea at all.

You displayed two pictures of Katsaros as if he were a chemmie.


WH: Reynolds, you have read the following newspaper article before so it is you who are consciously lying. (Anything for cheap effect, and to waste my time: really do you have any purposes at all other than to waste the time of activists?)

http://www.diplomatictimes.com/hddf/hddf/aginameetinjuly.htm

From ‘Ethnos on Sunday’, 20th July 2003.

Aigina: Protest meeting on aerosol spraying

The peculiar spraying which, as an environmental experiment, appears to have taken place in Aigina several months ago, as was revealed by ‘Ethnos on Sunday’, was the subject of a public meeting which took place on Wednesday on the island, at the initiative of local residents.

In an ‘Ethnos on Sunday’ report of 16th February, the environmental chemist Leonidas Kardaras, the Australian ecological activist Wayne Hall and the former parliamentarian of the Ecologists-Alternatives Tasia Andreadaki revealed that since the end of 2002 aerosol spraying for purposes of climate control has been taking place in our country. The probability of aerosol spraying with aluminium oxide mixed with other chemicals dangerous to health, as has already been noted in America and Europe, has aroused uneasiness in the residents of the picturesque island.

‘New World Order’ Barbarity

‘If something like this is happening unknown to us, it is an example of New World Order barbarity’, says teacher George Kyriakou, a member of the ‘Aigina Citizens’ Initiative’, who organized the meeting last Wednesday with key speaker the scientist from Democritos Nikos Katsaros.

‘The aerosol spraying scenario was inspired by internationally known scientists from as early as the 1970s. Obviously the approach that has prevailed is that of the ‘father of the H-bomb’ Edward Teller, who proposed spraying the entire planet with chemicals to reflect the dangerous ultra-violet rays of the sun but also allowing the heat to escape,’ says Wayne Hall.

Mr. Katsaros, research director at Democritos and vice-president of the Union of Greek Chemists, gave a rundown of all the experiments up to this day which have been dangerous to humanity and have taken place secretly, only to be revealed subsequently.

‘At the function a relevant video was screened which records clear evidence of the carrying out of such experiments abroad. The video is a production of William Thomas, who has observed the phenomenon in America,’ added Kyriakou and he concluded: ‘We act locally but we think globally



I knew that somehing was fishy when I wrote Katsaros and he replied, "No scientific evidence exists whatsoever for "chemtrails".

So the truth is you lied to all your friends at Chemtrailcentral, there is no movement against "chemtrails" in Greece, turns out even your own wife scoffs the idea.


My wife, since you mention her, is a well-known maker of ecological documentaries and a front-line activist in the campaign against genetically modified organisms in food.

I not be bothered commenting on the rest of your garbage.

Let Letxa speak for himself.

If you were a normal person, a fellow citizen of the world and an equal, I would demand from you an apology for slanderous misrepresentation.

But you are not, so I won't.

[jayreynolds]

You can fool the chemmies into believeing whatever you like, wayne.
The one person you say you haven't been able to convince yet is your own wife, that's good enough for me!

You can also translate from Greek any way you like, too, Wayne.
How would we ever know what the hell it really said?

I choose to not believe you, because Dr. Nikos Katsaros, whom you cited as participating in the meeting, told me flat-out "There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER for "chemtrails".

See, old bean, when a claim is made, and you tried to piggyback on his reputation as a scientist, when your claim turned out false, and Dr. Katsaros told me the above, I knew you were capable of fabricating anything, and would do so.

From now on, Wayne old fellow, you'll just have to cite unrelated sources for corroboration of your claims. You've struck out with Dr. Katsaros and don't forget Dr. Christos Zerefos, the most famous atmospheric scientist in Greece, who told me you were just seeing ordinary contrails.

Where are these greenpease people you said were coming aboard, let's have their names so that I can check them out, too. Oh, and don't forget that bubble headed bleach-blonde Aspasia Beta, the one who rants about air pollution while she smokes 2 packs/day, what a "chemtrails" cult you must truly have!

You are digging yourself quite the hole here halva, glad you couldn't stay away too long!

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Wayne, your boy 'Archon' has really been exposed as a liar now.

Does he know that over fifty chemmies, including all the 'real players'
read this thread every day?

His ass has been sent home in a sling, and now everybody knows it.


http://p090.ezboard.com/fcontrailsandchemtrails22884frm1.showMessage?topic ID=2366.topic

[foot_soldier]

Why don't you join this group, Jay? I'm sure they'd love to have you since you are obviously the undisputed authority on all things atmospheric:

Free Republic Conservative News Forum
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1113608/posts

[foot_soldier]

Or how about this group? They hate Watermelons, Liberals, environmental wackos and prolly Chemmies, too. And they have a petition drive well underway. Your expertise could really put this group on the map!

Anti-Global Warming Petition Project
Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine
http://www.oism.org/pproject/

CRUSH the Commies!!

[halva]

Actually Raynolds, if you want to start hounding Greenpeace Greece, that would be quite convenient.

Ring (+30) 210 3840774-5 and ask for Nikos Haralambidis and/or Manos Safos. Manos Safos is younger and more trusting and I'm sure you could get him to say something you could use to make propaganda against Halva. And Haralambidis would be (at least) vague and non-committal enough for you to be able to claim that he doesn't support Halva or the chemtrails hoax.

Go to it.

[jayreynolds]

Sounds like you gave up on greenpeas, Wayne, they rejected you, eh?
Can they realy be blamed for a "vague and non-committal" response to the 'chemtrail" hoax? I'm sure that is the way you presented it to THEM?

As I understand it, greenpeas is too busy worrying about the poor environmental state of Greece in advance of the Olympics. Once the world gets a good look, that wil be the end of days for your tourism.
Even Sydney with it's seedy seamy side pales beside a decaying dump like Athens. At least they spruced up a bit.

Why are you writing in third person, having split personality problems?

[jayreynolds]

hey, Deborah(footsoldier)!

Look who you've got on your side. With friends like this.........

Twenty years experience tracking 'chemtrails', must be a record.
===============From:
Kayte Johnson
Bakersfield California
pashn8spirit@y...

Hello From Bakersfield,
I wish to say "Hello" to everyone and to let the moderator know to
not send the e-mails. Yes, it filled my box up.

I signed to find out from anyone out there tracking the chemtrails if
any behavioral changes have been noticed. Anyone is welcome to
contact me at my e-mail with any info.

Bakersfield was sprayed last year with something that caused major
behavioral changes in the people who live here. People were fighting
with each other over insignificant things. I have been tracking
chemtrails for over 20 years and I have seen some unusual changes in
humans, animals and plant life. Bakersfield is sprayed on a daily
basis and I keep track of all info regarding illness and behavioral
changes. During the week that I noticed the changes in bahavior, the
jails here were over capacity with people who normally would not say
or do an unkind thing to anyone. The place that I worked at the time,
two grown men went to blows over a spilled Pepsi. I mean that
pummeled each other bloody. Both men were arrested and hauled off to
the hospital before being incarcerated. It was the talk of the city
for over a week.

We were sprayed on a Monday and the effects did not dissipate until
around Saturday. I log every illness that hear about and monitor
symptoms of each specific spraying. I have friends all over the
country and we compare notes on a regular basis.

Right now I am looking for a way to actually take samples from the
trails over our city and have them analyzed by someone who can be
trusted. My research is more than just chemtrails and I must have hit
a sore spot with someone because my e-mail was broken into for about
a week.

I file and catalog all info from the local hospitals when the
chemtrails first show up. Usually within a few hours the symptoms
show up. One week it may be body aches with a slight fever, the next
week of spraying can bring on stomach ailments. As I have read your
missives, you all wish to find out what this stuff is and who is
doing it and why. The spray they doused us with last summer was
incredible. Something that could actually change human behavior to
turn us against ourselves. It was the talk of the city. Most everyone
noticed the significant change in their friends, families and
workmates. Regular customers who I have known for years, were ready
to do battle with anyone.

So I pose this question to anyone who wishes to help me out with
this. Anyone who has noticed any behavioral changes in humans and
animals after being sprayed, please contact me via my e-mail. I need
to know what other cities were sprayed with this stuff so I can
catalog all pertinent info.

Since I am an animal lover and really into Mother Nature, I also
watch animal behavior after the spraying takes place. My dogs have
been affected, my horses (none are collicky though) even all my
parrots. If you happen to notice birds flying while the spraying is
taking place, you will notice that they get confused and no longer
fly in any pattern. We get a lot of migritory birds over B-Patch and
one afternoon I was watching hundreds of crows and when the spray
fell far enough into the birds, it dazed and confused them. They all
flew off into strange directions and most of them came back to earth
to just get their bearings.

So anyway, thank you for letting me ramble, but I really do want to
hear from anyone who has any information on the spraying that causes
behavioral changes. The illness that is caused is very serious, but
to change or modify human or animal behavior is scary. That would be
one way for these crazies to lessen the population.

I myself, wish to stop them in their tracks by enlightening the
public about all chemtrail spraying.

Thanx again!!!!!!

Kayte Johnson
Bakersfield California
pashn8spirit@y...

[halva]

Sounds like you gave up on greenpeas, Wayne, they rejected you, eh?


Telephone them, Reynolds, if you have the balls, and cut the rest of the crap.

[jayreynolds]

I've had enough of $3/minute foreign calls, waynie. Do your worst.

frankly I don't care if you do inculcate them, wouldn't want to put some Greek skeptic out of work.
Ha!

Dude, if you can't even convince your own wife to join the "chemtrail" hoax, your not much to worry about, IMHO. :lol:

Meteorological planes, good one! :)

[whitemajikman]

Ring (+30) 210 3840774-5 and ask for Nikos Haralambidis and/or Manos Safos. Manos Safos is younger and more trusting and I'm sure you could get him to say something you could use to make propaganda against Halva. And Haralambidis would be (at least) vague and non-committal enough for you to be able to claim that he doesn't support Halva or the chemtrails hoax.

Go to it.



Guess What Wayne you should not be giving out phone numbers unless you have first made sure the references will be kind and in your favor.

I called the number just to find an answering machine....

So I left a contact number......and guess what Manos called me Back.....

The conversation was very Interesting ,Manos Says that Wayne Hall
Is a And I quote ....

A Former productive Activist who has lost his sense of reality and Scientific Ideals and is now involved in flights of fancy not befitting an environmental activist. He also states quite clearly that if you keep trying to drag greenpeace into your craziness that legal action will be taken.........Oh and here is the Kicker,When asked How he views chemtrails he explicitely said ......Hoax and that people like Wayne are RESPONSIBLE FOR creating Hysteria over normal Contrails which is counter productive to real research and is demeaning to all activist's everywhere.


So Wayne After this phone call I think your in need of some psychiatric attention.....

Because this thread along with this phonecall proves that you are not in charge of all your faculties and that you cannot distinguish reality from fantasy.

In other words..............FRAUD.

[halva]

Whitemajikman, thank you for having the balls to do what Reynolds did not dare to do.

(If, of course, you are telling the truth).

Will you gain kudos among debunkers for having done this? Or the opposite?

It will be interesting to see.

[halva]

Dave, Whitey is a kook who has been caught in numerous lies.


Jay, I have not attacked you Jay on this 123 page thread......

Now I see you for what you are.....

Lexta.....

If you really are Interested in the truth.....

Jay is the farthest thing from the Truth.....

And a little bit of friendly advice........

Jay has no friends or colleagues.....

Jay likes to feed his Ego....

In fact his Ego is more important then you,me or even the Issues.....

Jay is the Biggest reason why this Hoax is not Dead.......

As you can see Without the chemtrail Hoax, Jay has little to live for....

For him It is an obsession.....pure and simple.

So Watch your back Lexta ......Jay will not hesitate to call you a kook if you start cramping his style.....

Because Jay's Paranoia is legendary.......

As is his Arrogance.....

Reynolds is losing control of his debunker colleagues on two fronts simultaneously:

Archon blabbing more than he should at CTC.

And Whitemajikman getting even with Reynolds by rushing in where Reynolds feared to tread and broadcasting with indiscriminate zeal the debunker message in places like Greenpeace, whose rank-and-file activists have been sheltered from reality for a long, long time.

Enjoy.

[halva]

Dude, if you can't even convince your own wife to join the "chemtrail" hoax, your not much to worry about, IMHO. :lol:

Raynolds, how do you know I was telling the truth about my wife? Why should you believe anything I say?

[halva]

Whitemajikman, for two nice bedtime stories about what can happen to people who intervene in real reality on the basis of what they understand from media reality, see:

http://www.spectrezine.org/resist/Hall.htm

Not that I wish you the fate of either of these guys.

[jayreynolds]

I will say that whitey's story has the ring of truth about it..........

Most definitely greenpeas has rejected you, wayne, as they have chemmies in the US, if they were on your side, you'd certainly be crowing about it!

It's so nice of you to stick around, Wayne.

[halva]

Yes, but I have not rejected greenpeas.

It's only you that I have rejected.

[halva]

Reynolds is losing control of his debunker colleagues on two fronts simultaneously:

Archon blabbing more than he should at CTC.

And Whitemajikman getting even with Reynolds by rushing in where Reynolds feared to tread and broadcasting with indiscriminate zeal the debunker message in places like Greenpeace, whose rank-and-file activists have been sheltered from reality for a long, long time.

[halva]

Let me venture a prediction: if large-scale opposition to 'chemtrails' develops, it will develop largely or even entirely outside organizations like Greenpeace, and possibly the ecological milieu as a whole.

Greenpeace will continue their focus on the issue of climatic change and other ecological problems, more or less ignoring the "answers" or pseudo-answers of geoengineering except to say that they are against them.

They will play the role of voices of "restraint" and "moderation" against those who would incite the crowds against the geoengineers.

[gaiacomm]

Wayne:

May I suggest that you now focus on your true mission of chemtrails and its effects on the environment. It has become clouded with debunkers and those that do not understand what causes this environmental mess.

Global warming is already a part of our society and will continue until the earth changes which will directly affect us all. There is alot more damage being done to the environment caused by other means. Chemical pollution is everywhere and not dominated by airplanes dumping fuel in the skies. It is a problem that will not go away because of business and political pressures. Those people enjoy living in sludge.

These people who post here thrive on reaction and not response. Of course not all.

You are dealing with people who are novice when it comes to science and its direct effects to the environment.

Focus your energies on what you really are about and pay no attention to the others. They are dying a slow death due to the posions in their water, food and air. And they do not have the power to change it. They are sounds in the wind!

[gaiacomm]

Greenpeace has no more power...it has become a tool to be used to pamper other activists. It is controlled by the powers to be!

Its all about money and power now!

[jayreynolds]

Whitemajikman, for two nice bedtime stories about what can happen to people who intervene in real reality on the basis of what they understand from media reality, see:

http://www.spectrezine.org/resist/Hall.htm

Not that I wish you the fate of either of these guys.

Hey, Wayne, in your article regarding David Hicks, you state:

"To further his studies in the Islamic faith and learn ancient Arabic he wanted to travel on the old silk road through the Himalayas, but the only way to do it in safety was to join the Pakistani Army, so he did so, serving in a border patrol in Kashmir. September 11th found him at Kandahar, Afghanistan, where on being contacted by his family he gave no sign of knowing anything about the terrorist attacks in the United States. His military superiors sent him to Kabul to defend the city against the Northern Alliance, but on 9th December was captured by Northern Alliance troops and taken prisoner. Subsequently he was handed over to the United States government and sent to Cuba."

Wayne, the Pakistani Army's main focus is on killing the Indian Army, they do not operate a "Club Med" with tours of the Silk Road and lessons in ancient Arabic. They don't even speak arabic. Furthermore, the Pakistani Army never defended Kabul against the coalition.

Why would you fabricate such a lie, Wayne?

David Hicks is an Australian islamic mercenary who got caught fighting for the Taliban.

Remember the Taliban, Wayne?

Here is a photo of Hicks "studying the islamic faith"====>>>

[whitemajikman]

Will you gain kudos among debunkers for having done this? Or the opposite?

It will be interesting to see.

How many times do I have to tell you Halva.......

there is not one debunker out there who trusts me,nor is there a chemmie who trusts me.

I am in effect what you would call ROGUE.

[whitemajikman]

Focus your energies on what you really are about and pay no attention to the others. They are dying a slow death due to the posions in their water, food and air. And they do not have the power to change it. They are sounds in the wind!


You do not have the power to change your underwear gaiacomm......

nevermind trying to change the world or public oppinion.




Greenpeace has no more power...it has become a tool to be used to pamper other activists. It is controlled by the powers to be!

Its all about money and power now!



You are Quite right in your assumption Gaiacomm,But the Stakes are considerably higher than they were 5 years ago..........

And has little to do with the chemtrail Hoax......

As you are all starting to find out.......

[halva]

We are awaiting a report on your discussions with Christos Zerefos at the ozone seminar on Kos, Gaiacomm.

I don't think you have anything else to contribute to the discussion here, from which you have said goodbye at least ten times now.

[halva]

There was a public meeting on climate change tonight in Athens organized by the Athens Ecological Movement and chaired by Gerasimos Sklavounos.

The first speaker was Panayotis Nastos, associate professor at the University of Athens, replacing Christos Zerefos. Nastos gave a general rundown of the "global warming" problem.

He was followed by Manos Safos of Greenpeace, who proposed measures to reduce dependence on fossil fuels.

The next speaker was the journalist George Mitralias, who spoke of the political aspects of the climate change and addressing the proposition that "if a solution is to be found, we [meaning 'the movement of movements'] are those who will find it."

The final speaker was Nikos Katsaros, who introduced a reference to chemtrails and geoengineering at the close of his address.

There was more elaboration from the floor on this aspect of the problem.

[halva]

How many times do I have to tell you Halva.......

there is not one debunker out there who trusts me,nor is there a chemmie who trusts me.

I am in effect what you would call ROGUE.


It is you who call yourself a Rogue, Whitemajikman.

If you really had a telephone conversation with Manos Safos (he denies it, so one of you is lying) it may have been the first contact with human reality you had in your life. Work on it.

[gaiacomm]

We are awaiting a report on your discussions with Christos Zerefos at the ozone seminar on Kos, Gaiacomm.

I don't think you have anything else to contribute to the discussion here, from which you have said goodbye at least ten times now.


Halva:

Remember that there is some truth to what JR and others write about. You then must decide which way is up and out.

As for my goodbye's well I still live in the USA and sometimes I like to excerise my freedom of speech rights granted to me and others that live here in the USA!

Also halva you unfortunately do not own this website and are not a moderater with any controls. So you are like the rest of us to surf the internet to find PURPOSE!

[gaiacomm]

There was a public meeting on climate change tonight in Athens organized by the Athens Ecological Movement and chaired by Gerasimos Sklavounos.

The first speaker was Panayotis Nastos, associate professor at the University of Athens, replacing Christos Zerefos. Nastos gave a general rundown of the "global warming" problem.

He was followed by Manos Safos of Greenpeace, who proposed measures to reduce dependence on fossil fuels.

The next speaker was the journalist George Mitralias, who spoke of the political aspects of the climate change and addressing the proposition that "if a solution is to be found, we [meaning 'the movement of movements'] are those who will find it."

The final speaker was Nikos Katsaros, who introduced a reference to chemtrails and geoengineering at the close of his address.

There was more elaboration from the floor on this aspect of the problem.



Where is the solution? With all of these learned men and women why cannot they find a solution and then execute it?

Meetings like that only make the hotels and foodservers money.

People talk but no forward action!

Maybe I should set a small fire under your noses!

[gaiacomm]

The planet is warming as well as the ice on both poles is melting. The gulf stream is very slowly changing temperature. Very suttle change but still change. Greece alone will not be able to prevent it. It requires everyone on this Planet.

Have your movement take temp reading of the ocean gulf stream. In addition take a look at the fresh water content in the mix.
Also send a probe to the upper layer of the atmosphere and do a chemical reading...vapor.....and ozone you will see that there is alot more going on than NOAA and others will permit to go public.

[halva]

Where is the solution? With all of these learned men and women why cannot they find a solution and then execute it?


This was something you were telling us you were going to do for us.

[gaiacomm]

Where is the solution? With all of these learned men and women why cannot they find a solution and then execute it?


This was something you were telling us you were going to do for us.


http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/attitude_study.html

[gaiacomm]

Where is the solution? With all of these learned men and women why cannot they find a solution and then execute it?


This was something you were telling us you were going to do for us.


http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/attitude_study.html



Wayne:

I am doing something. I have with others found a solution!

[halva]

Bravo, Bobo.

[gaiacomm]

Global climate
The global climate is changing. According to IPCC a large fraction of this change is anthropogenic due to the emissions of greenhouse gases, their precursors or other directly and indirectly radiatively active substances (e.g., water vapour from aircraft, which triggers contrails). In all scenarios considered by the IPCC the climate will warm, but at different rates and extends. In the Kyoto Protocol the various nations agreed to reduced the impact of men on climate. Unknown is the contribution of various sectors of human activity to climate change, i.e., the contributions from industry, households, aviation, surface traffic, agriculture, etc.. Various emissions are short lived and their impact on climate change may differ from an equivalent CO2 forcing. Furthermore, many indirect effect remain to be quantified, e.g., contrails and other anthropogenic cirrus clouds.

We concentrate on the climate change induced by traffic emissions, mainly from aviation and road traffic. First estimates of the aviation impact have been published in the IPCC Special Report "Aviation and the Global Climate". Apart from CO2 the knowledge to the quantitative climate effect is rather uncertain.

We currently quantify the radiative forcing from contrails. We have been able to develop a contrail parameterisation for use in GCMs (General Circulation Models) plus a treatment of thin (semi-transparent) clouds. These tools have been used in the ECHAM4.L39(DLR) GCM to diagnose the radiative forcing of contrails. In the next step we are going to use these parameterisations interactively in order to determine the climate impact of contrails in terms of temperature change or other meteorological variables

While the expected equilibrium climate change caused by well-mixed greenhouse gases (like CO2, CH4 or N2O) or by changes in the solar irradiance are proportional to the respective radiative forcing, this is not the case for species with geographically or vertically inhomogeneously distributed radiatively active species, e.g. from aircraft-induced ozone increase which is concentrated to the tropopause region of the northern hemisphere extra-tropics.

The climate sensitivity parameter is the link between the radiative forcing and the expected equilibrium change of the global mean (near) surface temperature.

The Lagrangian transport scheme ATTILA has been developed, which not only allows an efficient transport of many species without numerical diffusion, but which also enables very detailed transport studies, i.e., the determination of the spectrum of the age of air.

In a further effort new schemes for aerosol dynamics are implemented and the interaction of aerosols and clouds will be studied.

[gaiacomm]

Interaction of particles with clouds
Clouds play an important role in the radiation balance of the atmosphere and the climate modifications resulting from human activities. Due to the complexity of the formation processes and the microphysical properties in particular of thin ice clouds their contribution to the greenhouse effect is still not well known . However, it is widely accepted that aerosol particles are very important to initiate the ice formation process.

In the context of several research projects the interaction between aerosols and ice clouds is examined. In the course of field campaigns the characteristics of ice clouds and the physical and chemical nature of the aerosol available in the atmosphere are studied employing the research aircraft Falcon . The project INCA aims at a comparison of the characteristics of cirrus in the clean atmosphere of the southern hemisphere with those in the polluted northern hemisphere. An estimate of the effects of human activities on the climate via the modification of the cloud characteristics is expected. In the project PAZI the properties of very thin ice clouds are examined.

For these tasks an extensive equipment for aerosol measurement was set up at the institute. In laboratory studies and process models the interaction between aerosols and ice crystals is examined for well defined particles and in model systems. In connection with the observations under real conditions an improved representation of cloud formation processes in climate models is expected which is an important issue for a more realistic prediction of expected climate changes. Particles emitted from aircraft at cruise are released into the atmosphere at altitudes where ice clouds form. In the project PartEmis particles emitted from aircraft engines are characterised in detail regarding their physical and chemical properties and their ability to initiate cloud droplet formation. Building on earlier research work at the institute on the direct emissions of air traffic the current activities aim at a better understanding of the influence of air traffic on the atmosphere and the climate.

[gaiacomm]

http://www.eurocontrol.int/eec/

[gaiacomm]

Contrails


The impact of air-traffic on climate is not only restricted to the emission of combustion products like soot, HO2, CO2 and NOX. If the ambient air is cold and moist enough the aircraft engines also trigger the formation of clouds. As long as they are young, they are easily identified as contrails. Neither the amount of the additional cloud coverage nor the resulting effect on net radiation is known sufficiently. In contrast to lower level clouds these thin and high clouds are warming the earth-atmosphere system.

An algorithm to derive the amount of linear contrails from satellite data was developed at Institut für Physik der Atmosphäre at Oberpfaffenhofen. This method is used here to derive contrail statistics over Europe and Southeast- and East Asia. They are used at NASA for the continental USA.

Investigations on the details of contrail development have been performed by in-situ measurements and numerical models of the microscopic cloud physics. To estimate the global effect of contrails we use a climate model.

Aging contrails often cannot be discriminated from natural cirrus clouds and the combustion products of the air traffic might lead to changes in the cirrus formation process. Research is going on to determine the amount and effect of this additional cloudiness.

[gaiacomm]

Environmental impact of traffic
At the Institut für Physik der Atmosphäre the impact of different traffic emissions on the composition of the atmosphere and the climate is investigated. Among other aspects, the relative contributions of single traffic modes are quantified. For these studies we rely on laboratory measurements of exhaust gases, airborne measurements with the research aircraft Falcon and global model simulations with ECHAM.

Traffic emissions affect the environment in various ways. Emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2), carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxide (NOx), and particles (e.g. soot) are important for the chemical composition of the atmosphere. Nitrogen oxides lead to ozone production in most areas of the troposphere. Hydrocarbons enhance the ozone production.


While the importance of surface traffic decreases with hight, air traffic enhances the concentration of NOx mainly at the flight altitude (approx. 12 km). Emissions from ships lead to an increase of species like NOx over the sea, where they have a prominent role because other sources are absent. In addition, traffic emissions alter the formation of clouds: air traffic leads to contrails and additional cirrus. Ships form so-called ship tracks, i.e. low cloud lines that are triggered by the emitted aerosols.

[gaiacomm]

Traffic emissions
The chemical composition of the earth's atmosphere is in parts primarily determined by emissions of species like carbon dioxide (CO2), carbon monoxide (CO), nitrogen oxides (NO2), hydrocarbons or soot. Besides natural sources transport has an important role among anthropogenic emissions. Surface transport has a much higher capacity and much higher annual emissions than air traffic. However, air traffic emits species at about 12 km, an altitude which is less affected by other emissions.

DLR develops emission data sets of individual transport sectors to assess the global impact of transport on the composition of the atmosphere and finally on climate. Based on numerical simulations with the global climate-chemistry ECHAM/CHEM, transport and chemical effects of the emitted species are investigated.

[gaiacomm]

Noise propagation
Noise is one of the most important environmental problems in the vicinity of traffic installations such as airports, roads and railway lines. Traffic noise originates from propulsion, wheels and air flow and is emitted into the atmosphere. The propagation of sound waves in the atmosphere is largely determined by refraction, absorption and scattering depending on the actual state of the atmosphere. Reflections and diffractions at the topography (vegetation, buildings, hills etc.) cause further modifications. Since the topography again influences the atmosphere, the complete system of atmosphere, topography and sound field has to be considered.

At the DLR Institut für Physik der Atmosphäre simulation models are developed that describe the system of atmosphere, topography and sound waves in a consistent manner. Such models are the basis of more simplified noise prediction tools. These tools can be used, for example, to define low-noise approach and departure routes at airports depending on the actual weather type and taking advantage from the natural damping properties of the atmosphere and the ground. Further applications are the planning of low-noise traffic lines as well as other noise reducing measures (e.g. noise barriers).

Our research activities are embedded in the DLR/HGF-project "Leiser Flugverkehr" (Quiet Air Traffic), the German traffic-noise network "Leiser Verkehr" (Quiet Traffic), and the European projects SOBER and HARMONOISE

[gaiacomm]

Wake vortices of aircraft
The lift force exerted on aircraft wings produces two counter-rotating vortices with long life-times in the wake of an aircraft. Especially during the critical landing phase wake vortices can endanger any aircraft following close behind. The following aircraft must therefore maintain a prescribed safety distance. The aircraft separation distance determines the frequencies of take-offs and landings on major hub airports. When air traffic is dense, this bottleneck limits airport capacity and, hence, results in aircraft holdings and delays.

A DLR project, called WIRBELSCHLEPPE (German for wake vortex), aims at reducing those bottlenecks that result from wake turbulence and at making it less dangerous to man and machine. As a core activity the project deals with constructive measures at wings, flaps and fuselage of large aircraft which allow to reduce the vortex strength in the far wake considerably. In another core activity systems are developed that enable the prediction of the evolution of wake turbulence and its detection from the ground and in the cockpit. DLR partners of the project are the Institut für Physik der Atmosphäre at Oberpfaffenhofen, Institut für Aerodynamik und Strömungstechnik at Braunschweig and Göttingen, Institut für Flugsystemtechnik and Institut für Flugführung, both located at Braunschweig.

Research activities in the field of aircraft wake vortices are also funded through several projects by the European Commission (WakeNet I und II, C-Wake, S-Wake, I-Wake, ATC-Wake, AWIATOR). DLR is a major partner in all these EU projects. The endeavour aims at increasing the competitiveness of the European air traffic economy.

[gaiacomm]

http://www.ncar.ucar.edu/stratplan/plan.pdf

[halva]

For God's sake, Gaiacomm. You are truly more of a lunatic than Reynolds.

Those who have abandoned this thread made the right decision.

[jayreynolds]

For God's sake, Gaiacomm. You are truly more of a lunatic than Reynolds.

Those who have abandoned this thread made the right decision.

Lance Haubrick is actually more of a lunatic than 9/10ths of all chemmies, which is really saying something!

[halva]

I don't believe he is Lance Haubrick.

But that said, Reynolds, what are you now trying to achieve by hanging about on this thread? Your ranting postings have become reading matter for public meetings. Your "exposures" have not dissuaded people like Nikos Katsaros from continuing to speak publicly on the subject of chemtrails, nor Christos Zerefos from sending his collaborators to speak at meetings we organize and hear about the tactics used by certain Americans to intimidate people on the other side of the world through e-mails and internet postings.

Everything you are doing is counter-productive from your viewpoint.

Your own collaborators are escaping your discipline and assisting in the politicisation of the rank-and-file of Greenpeace.

What exactly is it that you would like to achieve further by remaining in this place?

[foot_soldier]

http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/attitude_study.html

Excellent reference. Thank you.

====================

May 17, 2004

Safety warning as Europe's skies come close to saturation point
Rise of budget flights means system will soon be unable to cope
http://travel.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,7445,1218438,00.html

The swarms of brightly painted budget aircraft flying over Europe are busier, cheaper and more plentiful than ever. But they are creating a painful headache for air traffic controllers, who face a challenge in coping with skies packed with a record number of flights.

At the present rate of growth Europe's skies will become "full" in little more than a decade, with current procedures unable to cope, according to Europe's top air traffic controller.

The warning is set to reopen fierce controversy over the safety of the continent's congested skies. It comes days ahead of the publication of an official report which is likely to blame failures in air traffic control for one of the most devastating air disasters in European history - a mid-air collision over Lake Constance two years ago which claimed 71 lives.

National control centres across the continent are coordinated by a network run by a Brussels-based agency, Eurocontrol, which matches take-off and landing slots in 33 countries stretching from Ireland to Ukraine. In a typical 24-hour period, Eurocontrol looks after 29,000 flights. Despite a slowdown in air travel following the terrorist attacks of September 11 2001, it predicts that annual traffic across Europe will double to 16m aircraft by 2020.

Victor Aguado, director general of Eurocontrol, said last week: "In the middle of the next decade, we will reach capacity using the present systems. Beyond that, we'll need something else, which today's technology can't provide."

To cope with booming numbers of flights, the minimum height separation between aircraft has already been cut from 2,000ft to 1,000ft.

Safety experts are now working towards "self-separation" technology that will limit the role of controllers by improving electronic equipment allowing aircraft to set safe paths away from each other automatically.

At any daytime moment, there are 3,500 aircraft in the skies over Europe, carrying some 400,000 people. One in 10 of them is operated by low-cost airlines, which have come from nowhere to create a booming industry over the last decade.

To the consternation of experts, much of the growth is forecast to come from east European states, where budget airlines are looking for new destinations. Safety chiefs have warned that the quality of air traffic control in Europe's new member states is variable.

Erik Merckx, Eurocontrol's head of safety enhancement, said: "If we don't get these new states up to speed, with the increasing traffic levels we're predicting, we will have a problem." continued...

May 13, 2004
U.S. Bureau of Transportation Statistics

February Airline Traffic Data; February 2004 Domestic Traffic Up 9.3 Percent From February 2003
http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2004/bts011_04/html/bts011_04.html

Thursday, May 13, 2004 - The U.S. Department of Transportation's Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS) today reported, in a release of preliminary data, that U.S. airlines carried 45.3 million domestic passengers in February, 9.3 percent more than in February 2003 (Table 1).

These passengers were carried on 746,025 flights, up 9.9 percent from the flights operated in February 2003.

In other domestic comparisons from February 2003 to February 2004:

Revenue passenger miles, a measure of the number of passengers and the distance flown, were up 13.3 percent.

Available seat-miles, a measure of airline capacity, were up 12.4 percent.

Load factor, a measure of how many seats are sold and used, was up 0.6 percentage points.

Flight stage length, the average non-stop distance, was up 3.4 percent.

Passenger trip length, the average distance passengers travel, was up 3.6 percent.

The number of domestic airline passengers rose 2.5 percent in February from January. (Table 2) Month-to-month comparisons may be affected by seasonal factors.

Among airlines, Delta Airlines carried 5.9 million domestic passengers in February, the most of any airline (Table 3).

Among airports, Hartsfield-Jackson International in Atlanta continued in February to be the busiest domestic airport, with 2.8 million passenger boardings (Table 4).

Note that there was one more day in February 2004 than in February 2003 due to Leap Year.

STRATOSPHERIC OZONE DAMAGE, ANYONE?

[gaiacomm]

Wayne:
Did you not find the data I posted good for research and understanding?

Its all on the internet!

But I bet you want the real stuff....the classified data....well find a snitch in NASA or in the Bush Admin. Or wait until after Nov 2004 election.
Or become CEO of Monsanto!

[halva]

If you have footsoldier's approval what can I say?

But why do you keep saying goodbye and then coming back?

And why do you make promises that you are apparently not going to keep?

And why do you keep giving political advice?

Do you notice any other non-debunkers doing that to each other?

[whitemajikman]

Wayne:
Did you not find the data I posted good for research and understanding?

Its all on the internet!

But I bet you want the real stuff....the classified data....well find a snitch in NASA or in the Bush Admin. Or wait until after Nov 2004 election.
Or become CEO of Monsanto!

Gaiacomm when are you going to start telling everyone that the problem isn't in the skies above,In fact when are you going to come clean and tell all of these nice folks .......

About the Earth's Magnetic Field.....?

And About the shift.....?

When are you going to stop dropping clues,and be a man about it.....?

You say you have a solution......? lets hear it......

Because so far the solution does not pertain to any normal civilians,do you not find a tug of conscience eating at your heart.

[whitemajikman]

Come on Gaiacomm,Cat got your tongue......?

Or can you not Tell Halva that his research is for nothing.....?

And that the event you have mentioned thru your hints and disclosure cannot be stopped....?

Come on Gaia.....

Where is your Balls Now.......?

Where is your sense of morality, when it comes to the truth.

Where is your sense of humanity.......?



Or have you forgotten it all........?

[jayreynolds]

I don't believe he is Lance Haubrick.

Just shows how far behind the learning curve you really are, Wayne, old fool.


What exactly is it that you would like to achieve further by remaining in this place?

You may not remember, Wayne, but I told you a long time ago that I am determined to be your worst nightmare.

Hey, running up on 130 pages that I've been asking these questions and you've been dodging them, Wayne. That's another good reason for me to stick around.

Like it or not, old bean, I've got deep roots here and aren't about to leave. As far as I'm concerned, this thread can go on interminably. With almost 18 thousand page views it is perhaps the "chemtrail" hoax's most viewed messageboard thread -ever!

Understand, Wayne, that most of those page views are your fellow chemmies who get quite a laugh watching you get your daily portion of whup-ass. They hate you far more than I do, but are so false themselves that they can't take the chance to tell you to your face, glass houses and all.....

Along with that voyeurism, they get to see just how weak the hoax really is when confronted with open contempt and ruthless dissection.
On a daily basis you've been losing ground visibly here, so much so that your in a deep pit, but the unseen losses as cult members see the rotten flesh flayed from the bare bones of the hoax is worth every bit of my efforts here. During the few months of this debate, scores have disappeared from the scene.

Besides, it's so damn easy, no sweat off my brow, and NOBODY leaves this forum until I'm through with them, see?

[b]So, here are the questions that have waited 130 pages for an answer, when are you going to answer them Wayne, and why are you having such a problem coming to grips with them?

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. When three, five, or ten years have passed, and the rest of the world goes on about their business, oblivious of the hoax, how will you feel?

[halva]

......and guess what Manos called me Back.....

The conversation was very Interesting.

Whitemajikman, either you or Manos Safos is telling fibs about this.

Why, rather than trying to divert attention to the earth's magnetic field, don't you say which of you it is?

Of course I don't really mind if you don't. Your evasiveness and bad character are sure to kill whatever slight spark of interest I began to have in you from the thought that you might be imbibing some reality from Manos Safos.

You may be able to regain Reynolds' favour if you work on it. All in all, I'm sure that whichever ever way you jump there will be SOMEONE there to love you for it.

[halva]

Raynolds, why do you think Archon disappeared so instantly from CTC when I asked him if he wanted to debate you?

If only all debunkers were so easy to get rid of!

[jayreynolds]

wayne, that 'archon' person was a fake. Their last post was an unbelievable fabrication. Eveybody knows all about it already, except you?

Why is it, Wayne, that you are such a hoax-magnet? Likely this has been a life-long problem for you, running after one disappointing failure of a cause after another, or following some cult over the edge into worthlessness, or some personality not worthy of a following.

Am I right? You have been down this road many times before, yes?

If you're like Thermit, about five years down the road you'll realize you wasted some valuable years chasing after a hoax. That will be about two years from now. Mark your calendar and remember that Jay Reynolds told you so. I told the same thing to Thermit five years ago. He's moved on, but doesn't mind the click-through advertising revenue his site generates, it amounts to a few thousand dollars/year if he's lucky.
Crass little worm, eh? He wouldn't use a penny for seed money to fund a real sampling effort, neither would any other "chemtrail" hoax promoter.

The 'activism' if there ever were genuine ones around, is all over, Wayne.
All that's left are the money-hags picking up the almighty dollars, the creeps like whitey 'archon' and lance-acon, the fools like you, and the debunkers. Only the debunkers are doing the right thing by keeping yur collective feet to the fire.

Get used to it, get over it, get real.

[halva]

Raynolds, why do you think Archon disappeared so instantly from CTC when I asked him if he wanted to debate you?

If only all debunkers were so easy to get rid of!

[halva]

If we want to get back to more productive activity, don't give Reynolds anything else to feed on or react to.

People sometimes don't answer questions, for political reasons. This is one of those times.

[halva]

Archon hasn't left CTC after all, and is not afraid (or unwilling) to debate:

This is some of what he says:

"I don't disagree with chemtrails per se, only with their true purpose...which I believe is a covert attempt to save us, not kill us."

His position, therefore, is that chemtrails are not a hoax.

He also says:

"As am basing my claims on research of a colleague, of course, you know who it is.. A-T... and mention alpha-theta to Jay Reynolds and he will runaway in tears.

Alpha burnt him so many times, he has no credibility to me. Now perhaps you all may believe his threats, but considering my underlying connections and his enlisted exaggerated position in the armed service... I am the least bit worried about deportation to gbay based upon my comments here-in. I could easily pull rank and have the bonehead on latrine duty for the rest of his miserable career. Now, I am not here to compete with boneheads, only to express my opinion. If JayJay doesn't like it he has the right to kiss my ass. ANd Jay, you can take that to the JAG or NCIs for all i'm concerned."

Apparently by "bonehead" he means Reynolds, and not the bonehead who was posting here (unless for some reason Reynolds has been pretending to be a teenage moron as well as his more familiar persona).

I don't understand all the references in Archon's posting. I don't know what JAG or NCIs are, for example.

Anyway, there it is.

WH

[halva]

Reynolds is losing control of his debunker colleagues on two fronts simultaneously:

Archon blabbing more than he "should" at CTC. (Good on you, Archon. You are my enemy, but I respect you as an enemy and I do not respect Reynolds.)

And Whitemajikman getting even with Reynolds by rushing in where Reynolds feared to tread and broadcasting with indiscriminate zeal the debunker message in places like Greenpeace, whose rank-and-file activists have been sheltered from reality for a long, long time.

[jayreynolds]

Wayne. 'archon' was exposed last Tuesday, but continues compoundinghis mistakes. :lol:
http://www.ariannaonline.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=104913#104913

another 'David Stewart', 'Jim Phelps', 'giacon' sort.
Hey, Wayne, the military call it 'gitmo', not gbay. [another archon LIE]

The biggest problem these fake 'whistleblowers' have is their short lifespan under scrutiny. They get twisted up in their lies and fall down.
The longer CTC mods allow the obvious lies to continue the more obvious it is that they enjoy watching you fall for them Wayne, like they did with 'deep sky' little lance haubrick and jim phelps. In all those cases they sat and sniggered as you ran after yet another fake they wouldn't praise and laud, don't you get it yet? You are simply a form of entertainment for them.

Like I said before, bring 'archon' on. Right here, right now.
For starters would be to explain the lies exposed by Maverick at the link above.

[gaiacomm]

If you have footsoldier's approval what can I say? (NOT MUCH I GUESS)

But why do you keep saying goodbye and then coming back? ( I JUST DO)

And why do you make promises that you are apparently not going to keep? ( I KEEP ALL PROMISES)

And why do you keep giving political advice? (BECAUSE I CAN)

Do you notice any other non-debunkers doing that to each other? NO)(

[gaiacomm]

Wayne:
Did you not find the data I posted good for research and understanding?

Its all on the internet!

But I bet you want the real stuff....the classified data....well find a snitch in NASA or in the Bush Admin. Or wait until after Nov 2004 election.
Or become CEO of Monsanto!

Gaiacomm when are you going to start telling everyone that the problem isn't in the skies above,In fact when are you going to come clean and tell all of these nice folks .......

About the Earth's Magnetic Field.....? (THE MAGNETIC POLES ARE DUE FOR A SWITCH IN POLES. IN THAT BRIEF MOMENT THE CYCLE...DC WILL ALLOW RADIATION FROM SPACE TO PENATRATE THE SURFACE, ETC AND MUTATE WHAT MATCHES ITS SIGNATURE.

And About the shift.....? ALREADY SAID!

When are you going to stop dropping clues,and be a man about it.....? THIS FORUM IS NOT THE PLACE FOR THAT TYPE OF INFORMATION.

You say you have a solution......? lets hear it......(FIND GOD)

Because so far the solution does not pertain to any normal civilians,do you not find a tug of conscience eating at your heart.

[gaiacomm]

Come on Gaiacomm,Cat got your tongue......?

Or can you not Tell Halva that his research is for nothing.....? NO, HIS RESEARCH HAS MERIT!

And that the event you have mentioned thru your hints and disclosure cannot be stopped....? YES THAT IS TRUE!

Come on Gaia.....

Where is your Balls Now.......? IN MY PANTS

Where is your sense of morality, when it comes to the truth.

Where is your sense of humanity.......? RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU!



Or have you forgotten it all........? NO

[gaiacomm]

Wayne. 'archon' was exposed last Tuesday, but continues compoundinghis mistakes. :lol:
http://www.ariannaonline.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=104913#104913

another 'David Stewart', 'Jim Phelps', 'giacon' sort.
Hey, Wayne, the military call it 'gitmo', not gbay. [another archon LIE]

The biggest problem these fake 'whistleblowers' have is their short lifespan under scrutiny. They get twisted up in their lies and fall down.
The longer CTC mods allow the obvious lies to continue the more obvious it is that they enjoy watching you fall for them Wayne, like they did with 'deep sky' little lance haubrick and jim phelps. In all those cases they sat and sniggered as you ran after yet another fake they wouldn't praise and laud, don't you get it yet? You are simply a form of entertainment for them.

Like I said before, bring 'archon' on. Right here, right now.
For starters would be to explain the lies exposed by Maverick at the link above.



JR... YOU STILL HAVE THIS FIXATION ON LANCE. I FIND IT QUITE FUNNY.

YOU HAVE NOT DONE YOUR HOMEWORK! JR YOU ARE HERE BECAUSE YOU WANT TO BE HERE AND THAT IS ALL!

JR...NEXT MONTH WATCH THE WEATHER IN YOUR AREA. NOTICE THAT YOUR NATURAL WATER SPRINGS ARE POSIONED WITH BURIED SLUDGE!

KEEP YOU EYES ON THE NORTH AND SOUTH POLES OVER THE COURSE OF THE NEXT 60 DAYS. TELL US WHAT YOU WILL SEE JR?

[gaiacomm]

http://www.borderlands.com/contrails/contrail.htm

[jayreynolds]

uh, oh, wayne. Looks like this 'archon' you've been promoting so hard has run up against some "anomalies". Now you look like an even bigger asshole than ever, halva, who you going to push next at chemtrailcentral, Liakopolous?

"JR... YOU STILL HAVE THIS FIXATION ON LANCE. I FIND IT QUITE FUNNY. YOU HAVE NOT DONE YOUR HOMEWORK! JR YOU ARE HERE BECAUSE YOU WANT TO BE HERE AND THAT IS ALL!"

I have had some very interesting communications with Al Berreth, and was called by Rob Mckinney at the IHS ISSO office who asked me to contact (501) 324-6241

I've done my homework, little creep.

[halva]

I don't know if Archon will respond to your "bring it on" chest-beating, which appears to be accompanied by some kind of behind-the-scenes manouevres you would also like to impress us with. And I don't know how free he is as a member of the American military to act on the basis of what he says is his conscience.

I don't think it is appropriate to call him a 'whistle-blower', fake or otherwise. He says he supports the aerosol spraying that may be behind one kind of 'chemtrail'.

Here is a question for you. If it turns out that there are chemtrail spraying programmes, and they are not a hoax. would you - like Archon - say
that you support such programmes that are 'for our own good'!? Or would you say that you are against them?

If you don't answer this question, which would be very easy for you to answer if you wanted to, then kindly explain why you keep insisting I should answer your questions.

[halva]

......and guess what Manos called me Back.....

The conversation was very Interesting.

Whitemajikman, either you or Manos Safos is telling fibs about this.

[Bonehead9]

Originally posted by halva:
There must be another bonehead, because the bonehead who is (or, hopefully, WAS) posting at Arianna's, is not Reynolds, as far as I can see. He is young, ignorant and naive, tagging along like a yapping puppy and coming in when things get real simple.

I have to keep things simple, otherwise you wouldn't understand them.

[jayreynolds]

Here is a question for you. If it turns out that there are chemtrail spraying programmes, and they are not a hoax. would you - like Archon - say
that you support such programmes that are 'for our own good'!? Or would you say that you are against them?

Wayne, such an act would be illegal under the US Code , and I support the rule of law. Internationally, it would violate the Nuremberg Code and I would also condemn it. You pitiful excuses for "activists" would have no better advocate than me if there were any proof that what you see are other than ordinary contrails, which they are. If I were on your side, the issue would have been settled already, done and over with.

Where's your buddy 'archon' now, wayne?

[Bonehead9]

Wayne, how is it that all of these obvious frauds and trolls seem to seek you out and draw you into their webs of lies?

Are they all the same person or are you hooked into some wierd troll network.

You have lost your credibility even among the most gullible chemmies.

What fictional character will you parade out next?

[gaiacomm]

JR:

I have discovered some of your work on the internet and in other places.

You seem intelligent enough to know when to leave well enough alone!

You have made your point countless times and for good reason!

But I guess you must be bored and inconsiderate of others!

[halva]

Here is a question for you. If it turns out that there are chemtrail spraying programmes, and they are not a hoax. would you - like Archon - say
that you support such programmes that are 'for our own good'!? Or would you say that you are against them?

Wayne, such an act would be illegal under the US Code , and I support the rule of law. Internationally, it would violate the Nuremberg Code and I would also condemn it. You pitiful excuses for "activists" would have no better advocate than me if there were any proof that what you see are other than ordinary contrails, which they are. If I were on your side, the issue would have been settled already, done and over with.

Where's your buddy 'archon' now, wayne?

Well, at least that's a straight answer, and I suspect that it is because of the illegality that you have been given the job (I can't imagine why you would undertake it if you weren't assigned to it) of debunking.

Archon is not like Manos Safos. He is captive in your world, and I don't know how willing or able he is to escape from it.

[halva]

Jay Reynolds hasn't done his early morning posting today.

Jay Reynolds, how exactly would chemtrails/geoengineering (if it existed) violate the US Code and the Nuremberg code?

[gaiacomm]

Wayne I found this quite interesting!

ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT

of

President George W. Bush

and

Vice President Richard B. Cheney,
Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, and
Attorney General John David Ashcroft

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors. - - ARTICLE II, SECTION 4 OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

President George W. Bush, Vice President Richard B. Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, and Attorney General John David Ashcroft have committed violations and subversions of the Constitution of the United States of America in an attempt to carry out with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes and deprivations of the civil rights of the people of the United States and other nations, by assuming powers of an imperial
executive unaccountable to law and usurping powers of the Congress, the Judiciary and those reserved to the people of the United States, by the following acts:

1) Seizing power to wage wars of aggression in defiance of the U.S. Constitution, the U.N. Charter and the rule of law; carrying out a massive assault on and occupation of Iraq, a country that was not threatening the United States, resulting in the death and maiming of tens of thousands of Iraqis, and hundreds of U.S. G.I.s.

2) Lying to the people of the U.S., to Congress, and to the U.N., providing false and deceptive rationales for war.

3) Authorizing, ordering and condoning direct attacks on civilians, civilian facilities and locations where civilian casualties were unavoidable.

4) Threatening the independence and sovereignty of Iraq by belligerently changing its government by force and assaulting Iraq in a war of aggression.

4) Authorizing, ordering and condoning assassinations, summary executions, kidnappings, secret and other illegal detentions of individuals, torture and physical and psychological coercion of prisoners to obtain false statements concerning acts and intentions of governments and individuals and violating within the United States, and by authorizing U.S. forces and agents
elsewhere, the rights of individuals under the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

5) Making, ordering and condoning false statements and propaganda about the conduct of foreign governments and individuals and acts by U.S. government personnel; manipulating the media and foreign governments with false information; concealing information vital to public discussion and informed judgment concerning acts, intentions and possession, or efforts to obtain weapons of mass destruction in order to falsely create a climate of fear and destroy opposition to U.S. wars of aggression and first strike attacks.

6) Violations and subversions of the Charter of the United Nations and international law, both a part of the "Supreme Law of the land" under Article VI, paragraph 2, of the Constitution, in an attempt to commit with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes in wars and threats of aggression against Afghanistan, Iraq and others and usurping powers of the United Nations and the peoples of its nations by bribery, coercion and other corrupt acts and by rejecting treaties, committing treaty violations, and frustrating compliance with treaties in order to destroy any means by which international law and institutions can prevent, affect, or adjudicate the
exercise of U.S. military and economic power against the international community.

7) Acting to strip United States citizens of their constitutional and human rights, ordering indefinite detention of citizens, without access to counsel, without charge, and without opportunity to appear before a civil judicial officer to challenge the detention, based solely on the discretionary designation by the Executive of a citizen as an "enemy combatant."

8 - Ordering indefinite detention of non-citizens in the United States and elsewhere, and without charge, at the discretionary designation of the Attorney General or the Secretary of Defense.

9) Ordering and authorizing the Attorney General to override judicial orders of release of detainees under INS jurisdiction, even where the judicial officer after full hearing determines a detainee is wrongfully held by the government.

10) Authorizing secret military tribunals and summary execution of persons who are not citizens who are designated solely at the discretion of the Executive who acts as indicting official, prosecutor and as the only avenue of appellate relief.

11) Refusing to provide public disclosure of the identities and locations of persons who have been arrested, detained and imprisoned by the U.S. government in the United States, including in response to Congressional inquiry.

12) Use of secret arrests of persons within the United States and elsewhere and denial of the right to public trials.

13) Authorizing the monitoring of confidential attorney-client privileged communications by the government, even in the absence of a court order and even where an incarcerated person has not been charged with a crime.

14) Ordering and authorizing the seizure of assets of persons in the United States, prior to hearing or trial, for lawful or innocent association with any entity that at the discretionary designation of the Executive has been deemed "terrorist."

15) Institutionalization of racial and religious profiling and authorization of domestic spying by federal law enforcement on persons based on their engagement in noncriminal religious and political activity.

16) Refusal to provide information and records necessary and appropriate for the constitutional right of legislative oversight of executive functions.

17) Rejecting treaties protective of peace and human rights and abrogation of the obligations of the United States under, and withdrawal from, international treaties and obligations without consent of the legislative branch, and including termination of the ABM treaty between the United States and Russia, and rescission of the authorizing signature from the Treaty of Rome which served as the basis for the International Criminal Court.

[airtankerpilot]

I don't know if Archon will respond to your "bring it on" chest-beating, which appears to be accompanied by some kind of behind-the-scenes manouevres you would also like to impress us with. And I don't know how free he is as a member of the American military to act on the basis of what he says is his conscience.
.

If you think Archon is or was ever a member of the military, no wonder you have fallen for the chemtrails hoax.

Anyone with the slightest knowledge of military aviation can see from his messages, he knows nothing about the military or aviation.

Funny how the chemtrail believers were lapping it up though, even when it would be completely obvious to anyone else the guy was full of it.

[whitemajikman]

Whitemajikman, either you or Manos Safos is telling fibs about this.



Well Halva I know what I know......

And Manos is not lying, because for Manos to be lying you would of had to talk to him.......and up to this posting he has not heard a peep from you.........

But I did invite him to Arianna's.......

And he has stated he will think about posting here,to expose your schizophrenic ambitions..........

But because he is a REAL activist with REAL research......He has little time to entertain an idiot as yourself.......

But he did say he would make an attempt.......in his own time......


So once again you are caught in a web of treachery........

and deceit...............

[whitemajikman]

Gaiacomm ..............I only have 2 words for you that are significant to your plight..............


I KNOW.......

[halva]

Whitemajikman, either you or Manos Safos is telling fibs about this.



Well Halva I know what I know......

And Manos is not lying, because for Manos to be lying you would of had to talk to him.......and up to this posting he has not heard a peep from you.........


Manos Safos was the second speaker at the Athens Ecological Movement's function last Thursday on climate change. I invited him to speak at it after the head of Greenpeace, Greece, Nikos Haralambidis, told me personally that he (Haralambidis) had another engagement and suggested that Manos replace him. I went to Greenpeace to brief Manos on what we would be talking about, and I talked to him at the end of Thursday's meeting, showing him (giving him) what you had written about him, and me. He denied having said anything like that to you, but he also admitted that he wasn't well informed about the matter you asked him about.

By the way, Dave Dickie, of Edmonton, Alberta, who was offering personally to show you the data he mentioned in a posting to this forum writes that: "This whitemajikman who claims to know me personally so far has not contacted me."

Is he lying too? Would you like to assert this?

[halva]

Jay Reynolds, how exactly would chemtrails/geoengineering (if it existed) violate the US Code and the Nuremberg code?

[halva]

If you think Archon is or was ever a member of the military, no wonder you have fallen for the chemtrails hoax.



Archon is not like Manos Safos. He is captive in your world, and I don't know how willing or able he is to escape from it.

[whitemajikman]

By the way, Dave Dickie, of Edmonton, Alberta, who was offering personally to show you the data he mentioned in a posting to this forum writes that: "This whitemajikman who claims to know me personally so far has not contacted me."

I have not contacted Dave nor will I in the future.....

But I can assure you that He or someone close to him has already sent me various messages,trying in vain to disclose what I exactly know about him.......

But who ever it is.....rest assured they need a course in proper diction.....and probably a stint in a 12 step program for their addiction's..........

And according to this Phantom E-mailer Dave has enormous power and influence which is a crock of shit.

just like your lies regarding talking to Manos....which has already been verified by our conversation earlier today.........

By the way Halva Misrepresentation is a crime........


And you are guilty..............

[airtankerpilot]

If you think Archon is or was ever a member of the military, no wonder you have fallen for the chemtrails hoax.



Archon is not like Manos Safos. He is captive in your world, and I don't know how willing or able he is to escape from it.

If he is in the world of falsehoods, delusions and chemtrails, thats your world, not ours.

[halva]

I have not contacted Dave, nor will I in the future.....

your lies regarding talking to Manos....which has already been verified by our conversation earlier today.........


Whitemajikman you are a phantasm. A creature existing on the internet and nowhere else.

Probably with your telephone calls you could be tracked down, but I could not be bothered trying to, unless someone specifically asks me to.

I hope Manos Safos has learned a thing or two from this distasteful episode. I will ask him when I run into him again.

[gaiacomm]

Wayne:

You are most interesting. You have such energy and purpose!
Have you considered writing a book?

You have alot of data that needs to be compiled and recorded for history.
Consider it!

[jayreynolds]

well, I see halva's sorry bag of crap buddy 'archon' has turned out to be
just another twisted up liar. Birds of a feather......

Most likely he'll be allowed free reign at CTC, because lunatics and liars fit in well enough over there. No wonder he doesn't have the guts to debate here, he wants no part of of a good old fashioned can of whup-ass.

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/002259-2.html

Back to makin' hay tomorrow, Wayne. You guys need some new material.

[halva]

Jay Reynolds, how exactly would chemtrails/geoengineering (if it existed) violate the US Code and the Nuremberg code?

[jayreynolds]

Jay Reynolds, how exactly would chemtrails/geoengineering (if it existed) violate the US Code and the Nuremberg code?

The chief violation would be lack of informed consent.

Below are the questions I previously asked of you, which have gone unanswered for 132 pages. Wayne, you made the challenge on page one of this thread, to debate the issue of geoengineering by "chemtrails".

Wayne Hall(AKA 'halva') your continued refusal to address these questions, basic questions primary to establishing your position in debate, demonstrates publicly that you have no case, you have lost by default.

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. When three, five, or ten years have passed, and the rest of the world goes on about their business, oblivious of the hoax, how will you feel?

[jayreynolds]

You better keep your pie-hole shut, Wayne. You're just a razor's edge away from being banned yourself for pushing one liar after another at CTC. They know how you have overstated yourself, your lies and deceptions about supposed progress of the cult in greece is clear. They are starting to tire of an arrogant anti-American commie greaser whose every action discredits the "chemtrail" cult, over and over again, and who has no answers whatsoever here in debate. They are tired of all your whining and lack of substance, your bitchin and pitchin of fits when you don't get your way. Get over it, Wayne, admit you're a big loser and a 'fraud magnet' who diminishes everything he touches.

Your best bud 'archon' gets the axe, ha!:

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000110.html

[halva]

I wasn't aware that you were one of the moderators at CTC, Reynolds.

I agree that Archon seems to have spent too much of his time knocking about with the likes of you, and seems to be a shingle short.

Still, it would be nice to know how exactly his lying is so much worse than all the other debunker lying that goes unpunished at CTC.

By the way how do you explain your slip up in yesterday's prediction?



Most likely he'll be allowed free reign at CTC, because lunatics and liars fit in well enough over there.

Losing your touch?

[halva]

Reynolds, aren't you tiring a little of this self-imposed duty of fighting me every day?

A good case can be made, owing to the illegality of chemtrails/geoengineering which you yourself acknowledge, that some input like yours was necessary from the governmental viewpoint in a preceding stage of the game.

But can't you see that with all these "Pentagon reports", Guardian/BBC/Observer journalism and Tyndall Centre seminars, that they are trying to introduce a different approach to things these days.

You made the assertion that if you had been a chemmie and not a debunker we would have won by now. In other words we would have shown that chemtrails are not a hoax if you had been working with us rather than against us.

How can assertions like this be put to the test other than by your retiring from the scene for a while and rejoining the game some time in the future as a genuine opponent of geoengineering.

[jayreynolds]

Reynolds, aren't you tiring a little of this self-imposed duty of fighting me every day?

Dream on, Wayne, you'll never be able to leave this thread as long as you remain a chemmie, because I've not finished with you yet.


A good case can be made, owing to the illegality of chemtrails/geoengineering which you yourself acknowledge, that some input like yours was necessary from the governmental viewpoint in a preceding stage of the game.

But can't you see that with all these "Pentagon reports", Guardian/BBC/Observer journalism and Tyndall Centre seminars, that they are trying to introduce a different approach to things these days..

You have contorted those articles beyond belief to try and fit your "chemtrail" cult claims, but cannot make it fit, Wayne. None of those sources believs in your "chemtrail" claims, and never will. Tyndall centre laughs at the very idea of chemtrails, they have scientists running the place, you fool. I doubt if even the brain dead leftists at Guardian would even buy into it, but I wouldn't mind debunking them if they did.



You made the assertion that if you had been a chemmie and not a debunker we would have won by now. In other words we would have shown that chemtrails are not a hoax if you had been working with us rather than against us.

How can assertions like this be put to the test other than by your retiring from the scene for a while and rejoining the game some time in the future as a genuine opponent of geoengineering.

Wayne, you seem unable to comprehend the english language, must be a piss-poor translator, dumbass. Geoengineering is a pipe-dream, pie-in-the-sky, science fiction.
I wrote:

"You pitiful excuses for "activists" would have no better advocate than me if there were any proof that what you see are other than ordinary contrails, which they are. If I were on your side, the issue would have been settled already, done and over with."

Wayne, your mind is so warped, you still contend that Dr. Nikos Katsaros is on your side, when he categorically said that there was "no proof whatsoever" for "chemtrails". I'm warning you, mech and the others are on the verge of banning you, waiting for the slightest excuse, don't try to pull any more funny business. Don't push your luck.

[halva]

Well, if it amuses you to continue insisting that you know better than I what is happening not in your life, but in my life....

By the way I invited Asher Minns from the Tyndall Centre to this thread to debate with you your idea that geoengineering is a lot of nonsense. But he said no thanks. I wonder why.

[PHANTOM]

Whitemajikman seems to have lost his nerve at persisting with such amazing hubris. You haven't.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Depends, ........... what day it is for him .................

[whitemajikman]

Whitemajikman seems to have lost his nerve at persisting with such amazing hubris. You haven't.


My Amazing Hubris.......?

Phantom you seem to think that I don't know about your fondness for conspiracy.......

Or your transgressions.......

By the way ,your simple mind must not be able to distinguish between "Losing ones Nerve"....................And getting bored with Halva and his Circular Circus of Non-Factual Admissions.......



And Jay is Doing a Fine Job Of making Halva Realize That He Is In Fact Scum......


Just as you are Scum Phantom........

You Mock-Patriotic Anarchist..............

By the way How many Different I.D's Is this now for you............?

If anyone is losing their nerve .......IT WOULD PLAINLY BE YOU..........

[jayreynolds]

By the way I invited Asher Minns from the Tyndall Centre to this thread to debate with you your idea that geoengineering is a lot of nonsense. But he said no thanks. I wonder why.

Probably because he knows little about the subject, Wayne. This hunch is borne out by the dearth of references in these two searches:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=asher+minns+contrails

"Your search - asher minns contrails - did not match any documents."

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=asher+minns+geoengineering&btnG=Search

"Your search - asher minns geoengineering - did not match any documents."

Of course, it could also be that he doesn't wish to risk getting his personal dose of ass-whup delivered in public.

That said, I predict that no one at Tyndall Centre will ever support the "chemtrail" cult's claims.

[halva]

By the way I invited Asher Minns from the Tyndall Centre to this thread to debate with you your idea that geoengineering is a lot of nonsense. But he said no thanks. I wonder why.

Probably because he knows little about the subject, Wayne. This hunch is borne out by the dearth of references in these two searches:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=asher+minns+contrails

"Your search - asher minns contrails - did not match any documents."

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=asher+minns+geoengineering&btnG=Search

"Your search - asher minns geoengineering - did not match any documents."

Of course, it could also be that he doesn't wish to risk getting his personal dose of ass-whup delivered in public.

That said, I predict that no one at Tyndall Centre will ever support the "chemtrail" cult's claims.

At their symposium in January they used the term "macroengineering".

If Asher Minns came here and you whupped his ass, would it be ass-whupping for the pipe-dream, pie-in-the-sky science fiction the Tyndall Centre is advocating and defending, or ass-whupping for something else?

If something else, what?

[halva]

http://www.tyndall.ac.uk/events/past_events/cmi.shtml

[jayreynolds]

wayne, the bottom line is that neither Asher Minns, or any other real scientist has ever or will ever, join the crusade of the "chemtrail" cult.

In fact, if you did indeed contact Minns, and honestly wrote about your belief in "chemtrails", he has already told you that what you are claiming is ridiculous, and that you see ordinary contrails.

So, Wayne, show us the correspondence between Minns and yourself, let's see just how honest you are, or are not, and whether, or not, the Tyndall Centre supports your claims.

Time to put up or shut up, Wayne.

[halva]

If you whupped Asher Minns' ass, would it be for the pipe-dream, pie-in-the-sky science fiction the Tyndall Centre is advocating and defending, or for something else?

If something else, what?

[halva]

I wrote to Asher Minns about your assertion that what they are doing is nonsense.

He didn't want to argue with you about that.

I have other correspondence from the Tyndall Centre also.

[jayreynolds]

wayne says "no more scaremongering", but look what happens when you tell people they are being sprayed with poison. Wayne is a member of this group and does nothing as women and children are scared to death, huddled indoors, afraid to go out.

'No more scaremongering indeed! You "chemtrail" hoax promoters are a heartless bunch of bastards
================================
From- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/message/112038
OH MY GOD.....GOD HELP USALL

My daughter just NOW came and got me to look out. MY GOD, THE
BIGGEST X RIGHT OUR MY HOUSE. I am really freaking out. ONE WAS JUST NOW SPRAYED, THE OTHER ONE HAS ALREADY STARTED TO SPRED. AND IT LOOKS LIKE ANGEL HAIR, THE KIND YOU USED TO PUT ON A CHRISTMAS TREE.
I think we should all prepare asap for our families, canned food,
water, candles (for those grids that blow), etc....forgive me for
being emotional, but it feels like that X was just for me...send
that one to stacey
ps. my teeth and gums feel weird, and have for days now...

[halva]

I wrote to Asher Minns about your assertion that what they are doing is nonsense.

He didn't want to argue with you about that.

I have other correspondence from the Tyndall Centre also.

[jayreynolds]

I wrote to Asher Minns about your assertion that what they are doing is nonsense. He didn't want to argue with you about that.
I have other correspondence from the Tyndall Centre also.

I say show proof of these claims, Wayne, I'm calling your bluff.

No one will ever believe any of what you say without proof.
If you won't show proof, what you are claiming is clearly just a fabrication. You never wrote to any of those people, and they never responded in support of your claims. It's that simple, Wayne.

Put up or shut up.
I'm calling your bluff, now show your hand.
That's the way of the world, dopey........

[halva]

I wrote to Asher Minns about your assertion that what they are doing is nonsense.

He didn't want to argue with you about that.

I have other correspondence from the Tyndall Centre also.

[jayreynolds]

Sounds like you don't want your bluff called, Wayne. The truth is that you never even dreamed of writing those people, and they never supported your claims at all, did they, Wayne?

Come on admit that is why you are unable to show anything. It's better to take the bitter pill and admit you are an inveterate liar now.

Remember what happened when you tried to say that Drs. Nikos Katsaros
and Christos Zerefos were on your side? When I wrote to them they both denied you, and refuted your claims about "chemtrails".

It would actually look better to your friends inn the cult if you wentahead and admitted defeat now, rather than be eventually shown to be a liar as in those two cases.

So, bring it on, Wayne.
Put up or shut up. The world is waiting and watching to see if you choke.

My hay is dry, but I'll be back at lunchtime to see if you've any balls.

[halva]

I wrote to Asher Minns about your assertion that what they are doing is nonsense.

He didn't want to argue with you about that.

I have other correspondence from the Tyndall Centre also.

[jayreynolds]

You are doing a brilliant job of looking like a fool, Wayne.
Simply repeating a claim doesn't make it any truer, or prove it to be true at all. Next you'll be claiming to have proof that President Bush personally flies the "chem-planes".

The other chemmies have had enough of your claims to have support from a person of distinction, from an "insider", or some scientist who turns out to be bogus.

Don't think that the others don't realize what's going on.

You are treading on thin ice with your friends by starting this boasting again, only to choke and fail miserably when called to produce the proof.

In the final analysis, they know your history of overstating the case and later backpedalling and waffling. You're not fooling me, or fooling them either.

Wayne "The Loser" Hall(aka. halva)
Everybody knows.

[letxa2000]

Halva:I wrote to Asher Minns about your assertion that what they are doing is nonsense. He didn't want to argue with you about that. I have other correspondence from the Tyndall Centre also.

I'd like to see that correspondence, too. You've made a claim, you've been asked for proof. Repeating the claim or ignoring the requests for the proof will not make them go away. Jay is completely right. You look like a total fool every time you repeat something you've previously posted, moreso now that what you keep repeating is exactly what is in question.

You said "I have evidence", Jay said "Show it to me," you said "I have evidence... I have evidence..." If you don't show the evidence now, you just look like an idiot. Amazing that 130+ pages could come down to something as absurd as you making false claims and being called on it. If you had just answered the 10 questions originally at least we could be debating science. Instead, your hope for credibility now resides entirely in providing evidence that you simply don't have.

Just goes to show that what I've thought about chemtrailers is right: Let them talk long enough and they'll debunk themselves. Good work! :)

[foot_soldier]

This looks like Jay Reynolds' kind of forum. Maybe he'd like to go in here and shit all over everybody:

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-64911.html

Meanwhile, on THIS forum it is in direct violation of Jay Reynolds' ground rules to discuss the following:

1) Contrails and aviation cirrus.

2) Atmospheric remediation protocols.

3) Climate change, regional and/or global.

Allowable input on this forum is strictly limited to analysis of "cults" and "belief systems."

[jayreynolds]

This looks like Jay Reynolds' kind of forum. Maybe he'd like to go in here and shit all over everybody:
http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-64911.html
Meanwhile, on THIS forum it is in direct violation of Jay Reynolds' ground rules to discuss the following:
1) Contrails and aviation cirrus.
2) Atmospheric remediation protocols.
3) Climate change, regional and/or global.
Allowable input on this forum is strictly limited to analysis of "cults" and "belief systems."

Hey, little debbie fruitcakes I liked your link, hilarious!
As far as I can tell, there is no moderation of this forum, no rules about what you can write at all.

Wayne Hall stated in post # 1 of this thread and I quote:

"It is time for there to be exposure, and honest public debate, about what is ALREADY being done by the proponents of geoengineering 'solutions'."

the top of the page says:

"Join Arianna and other guests in a lively, ongoing, and non-obscenity laced debate of the issues."

'Footsoldier' has admitted to acting as editor of this website which makes numerous claims about "chemtrails".
http://home1.gte.net/quakker/documents/chemtrails_over_america.htm

After viewing her website, ask yourself why after 133 pages, Deborah (aka. Footsoldier) has refused to address even these basic questions regarding her "chemtrail" claims.

So, Little Debbie fruitcake, answer the damn questions about the hoax which has ruled your life for the past five years, put up or shut up.

Two choices here, Deborah, either you can answer the questions or you admit that the entire "Chemtrails Over America" was just sick hoax. No need to beat around the bush or run away like you usually do, get it over with and be done with it. DO IT NOW.



1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. When three, five, or ten years have passed, and the rest of the world goes on about their business, oblivious of the hoax, how will you feel?

[foot_soldier]

SUMMARY
Tyndall Centre and Cambridge-MIT Institute Symposium
MACRO-ENGINEERING OPTIONS FOR CLIMATE CHANGE MANAGEMENT & MITIGATION
January 2004
http://www.tyndall.ac.uk/events/past_events/cmi.shtml

May 1, 2004
NASA Links Aircraft Exhaust to Regional Climate Change
http://noisereport.com/_wsn/page3.html

Exhaust from jet engines can trigger enough cloud cover to account for North America’s 20-year warming trend, according to scientists at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) Langley Research Center. Cirrus clouds that evolve from aircraft condensation trails, or contrails, correlate with a nearly one degree increase in lower atmospheric and surface temperatures across the continent from 1975-1994.

"The increased cirrus coverage, attributable to air traffic, could account for nearly all of the warming observed over the United States for nearly 20 years starting in 1975," said NASA senior research scientist Patrick Minnis. "This study demonstrates that human activity has a visible and significant impact on cloud cover, and therefore, on climate. It indicates that contrails should be included in climate change scenarios." (continued)

May 2004
The Climate Impact of Aviation
http://www.sthelens.gov.uk/planetsthelens.nsf/0/2A127E438E9D63B780256E8B002C05C7?opendocument

Speaker: Dr Victoria Williams: Imperial College, London

A FREE seminar in room C16, Pariser Building, UMIST - Manchester on Wednesday, May 12th at 4.00pm. There is no need to book, just come along and bring your friends and colleagues!

With the demand for air travel continuing to rise, the climate impacts of aviation are expected to increase dramatically. As these impacts arise through a number of mechanisms relating to aircraft emissions and to the production of contrails and cirrus clouds, the impact of a flight depends not only on the engine and fuel characteristics, but also on the altitude of emissions and on local atmospheric conditions. In addition, airspace congestion represents a key constraint both on future industry growth and on policies to address the climate impact. An integrated approach is required if practical, effective solutions or mitigation measures are to be identified.

This work uses a detailed air traffic simulation model, normally used for simulations of airspace capacity, and combines it with data for emissions and with atmospheric data to provide a method for identifying the impacts of changes in air traffic. Work on developing the full model interface is ongoing. Some early results will be discussed, relating to the climate impacts and operational difficulties associated with a policy to restrict aircraft cruise altitudes to prevent the formation of contrails.

The talk will include issues such as; fuel trade-offs and air space congestion associated with restricting cruise altitudes to avoid contrail formation.

Dr Williams has undertaken research with the Space and Atmospheric (SPAT) Physics group at Imperial College, the Centre for Transport Studies at Imperial and the University of Westminster Transport Studies Group.

====================

CRUSH the Commies!!!!!

[halva]

The starting point of my correspondence with Asher Minns was Jay Reynold's claims about the ridiculousness of the geoengineering strategies of climate mitigation that the Tyndall Centre studies and advocates.

But there was also discussion, with others at the Centre, of the problem caused by 'chemtrail debunkers'. One point that I make is that "the debunkers' ridiculing of questioning about 'chemtrails' goes hand in hand with ridicule of the anthropogenic origins of climatic change, of Kyoto, of any notion that 'anything is wrong'." I argue that "What you are trying to do, to mobilise public opinion about climate change while not telling the truth about geoengineering, is IMPOSSIBLE."

The replies I have received to these arguments have acknowledged the general reasonability of what I am saying, without committing themselves to any statement that could cause them trouble, given the reality that - as Jay Reynolds acknowledges - many geoengineering practices would be and are illegal under present international law.

This is a problem that the international lawyer Bodansky has written a great deal about, only a small portion of which I have read, unfortunately.

My strategy for proceeding in this matter is not centred on this thread, which is not a tribunal.

All of the most relevant discussions have taken place, and will continue to take place, off the internet, and I am not going to tell you about the content of them unless it suits my purposes.

I am not in quest of a "whistleblower" or a saviour who will enable me to trumpet "look, chemtrails are a reality". I am interested in defeating people like Reynolds and Letxa (and the US government which they support) in a wider political sense, and this may mean working together for a period with people who DON'T tell the truth about chemtrails. In fact I have already done that, in two public meetings in which Greenpeace has participated. They sit there tolerantly and let others talk about chemtrails. They don't commit themselves, nor are they likely to in future, in my opinion.

[whitemajikman]

In fact I have already done that, in two public meetings in which Greenpeace has participated. They sit there tolerantly and let others talk about chemtrails. They don't commit themselves, nor are they likely to in future, in my opinion.
_________________


They are only being Polite and you know it.......Wayne....

GreenPeace Totally Refutes the existence of Chemtrails......

Why Don't you Give Manos A call.......

Need His Number......?


You are either Schizophrenic Wayne Or A Glutton For Punishment.

How many Lies will you be caught in,before you Give Up........?

Or will your fascination with a hoax lead to your own padded cell with a view of the sky,and the contrails that put you there..... :D

[halva]

NASA Links Aircraft Exhaust to Regional Climate Change[/color]
http://noisereport.com/_wsn/page3.html
"The increased cirrus coverage, attributable to air traffic, could account for nearly all of the warming observed over the United States for nearly 20 years starting in 1975," said NASA senior research scientist Patrick Minnis. "This study demonstrates that human activity has a visible and significant impact on cloud cover, and therefore, on climate. It indicates that contrails should be included in climate change scenarios." (continued)


These discussions on aircraft exhaust are a way of factoring in the "chemtrail" element to the climate change debate without acknowledging any complicity in illegal activity.

There has to be someone "denouncing" all this, but it is difficult to denounce while at the same time maintaining a political alliance with those who keep up the pretence, for their own reasons.

This is why there has to be an agreed division of labour with "marginal" elements who take on the "denouncing" job.

[foot_soldier]

Meanwhile, on THIS forum it is in direct violation of Jay Reynolds' ground rules to discuss the following:

1) Contrails and aviation cirrus.

2) Atmospheric remediation protocols.

3) Climate change, regional and/or global.

Allowable input on this forum is strictly limited to analysis of "cults" and "belief systems."