It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature

[gaiacomm]

www.gaiacomminternational.com

No mention of Lance!

So who cares what people think!

The truth is out there!

[gaiacomm]

Jay:

You are boring and ignorant. You make claims that have no substance.
You assume with no data!

You cut and paste information that you yourself do not understand!

You do not love Karen as much anymore!

Karen needs a new man in her life!
Karen needs love from a man and not a cyberjunkie!

Do you like incest?

Do you like fear?

You attack from a computer terminal that has a trace on it and can be downloaded. Your firewall is open Jay!

You debate with insult. You attempt to deflect the real issues.

You hate yourself!

You love Porn!

You are so alone in your world and wish to be noticed!

You will never come forward and debate with anyone because you are a coward.

Nobody is going to debate with you scientifically because you are not a scientist and you cannot make a difference. You are one of millions that surf the internet for places like this to play and be someone.

When was the last time you made real LOVE to Karen?

You enjoy the LOVEMAKING of cyberman....are you GAY?

Jay....this forum is trying to be serious without your CRAP!

We respond to you in the same way as you would understand...its quite refreshing to lower my standards and write such trash on this forum to let off steam! Its not our normal way but it is good for all of us to pretend and be naughty sometimes as long as it is done for fun and not to harm anyone!

But you Jay you found people that respond back to you and that is your only strength on the internet!

Halva and others wish to inform rather than insult so please curtail your insults and we will ours.

Attempt to be civil and we also will be.

Note:

For the record your IP address has been captured and placed with the nerds to have fun with so wherever you go and whenever you sign on they know. I suggest you take off anything that you do not want public off your computers

[airtankerpilot]

Liafraud has also failed the criteria for inteligent posts. In fact, since only SMT has made any effort to discuss this issue, I have to give her a big hand, and

Well Sore Throat did make a few attempts at cloud identifcation too, but I am pretty sure he would not fall under chemtrail believer. From his posts, it looks like his concern is aviation pollution, and that it is changing the atmosphere, causing contrails to persist longer.

While pollution is not good, he is only hurting his cause by associating with chemmies.

I did find the comment earlier about There shouldnt be contrails since there were no major airports within 100 miles, rather funny. Do those people think airplanes just magically teleport from airport to airport?

Besides, if you did live within 100 miles from an airport, none of those aircraft using that airport would be making contrails anyways, since they would be in the process of descending or climbing.

[gaiacomm]

Show me one chemmie who has endeavored to learn about the specifics of meteorology, and aviation.

Not one...


this one did.
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000033.html

3t3L1 was a bonafide PhD. She learned the truth, including identifying the planes she saw overhead using Flight Explorer. She was the Science Forum moderator at chemtrailcentral. You can read her posts in the science forum there on pages 3 & 4. She set herself free by learning the truth. She quit the cult successfully. I wish many more the same success,
even Lance Haubrick( gaiacomm ), who needs therapy for his multiple personality disorder.
Jay

Well she is not a chemmie, but a FORMER chemmie. :)

THere are others who studied the details of the issue and the science/physics involved who realized chemtrails was silly. I can think of several ex chemmies off the top of my head, including two who helped run chemtrail message board at one time. They were insulted, treated with derision, and hecked for daring to leave the chemtrail cult.

But I Just cant think of anyone who studied details and science of it rationally and logically, and then believed in chemtrails.






Dear Everybody,
We all have times in our lives when we need to turn the page and move on to another chapter of our lives. That time has come for me today. I've enjoyed immensely the opportunity to be a moderator at Chemtrail Central. Thermit has an excellent site here, and he is really a wonderful person as well. It has been a privilege to work with him and Lulu and FLKook to try to keep things running smoothly at Chemtrail Central.

I've learned a lot about meteorology, jet aircraft and all sorts of other things while I've been here. But lately the Chemtrail issue seems to have stalled. The same old arguments are trotted out and the same old answers are given.

I had hoped that my work on fuel dumps would encourage others to do active investigation, but it was not to be. Instead, discussions have arisen about personalities--who hates whom and why they are justified in doing so. I just don't want to read them anymore.

I realize that I've resigned from the board before. The first time was in fear of retaliation from another board member. The second time was for a reason I can't even remember anymore. This time I'm just leaving. I'm not angry, trying to make a point, or anything like that. I've enjoyed getting to know all of you on this board, but now it's time for me to go.

May you all have clear, blue skies...someday.

3T3L1

[gaiacomm]

Thursday, September 18, 2003
To: Members and Guests,
From: Dr. Judah Ben-Hur
Subject: HAARP/GAIACOMM


I wish to thank those of you who continually supported my brief and controversial participation on this prestigious forum of seekers of truth! And to those who did not understand I forgive you and wish you the best on your journey to understanding.

Please accept my deepest apologizes for not being able to answer any and all questions surrounding the HAARP program and its indirect and direct effect on the formation and active influence on Chemtrails and other electromagnetic anomalies discussed on this forum.

It was my intent to disclose and educate in such a way to temporarily protect those innocent individuals that were lead and mislead into the arena of deceit and cover-up.

The eventual exposure of those that have hidden from view was a primary target of mine. But as we all know sometimes the raw truth is not to be made fun of or mocked by those who only do not understand.

HAARP and Gaiacomm are one the same with the exception that Gaiacomm is using a portion of the technology for global wireless communications. If you stand back and look at the big picture you will see that Gaiacomm is a new direction for HAARP and its intent is to help break away the bonds of technological ignorance!

It is important to understand that a project like HAARP and Gaiacomm if miss-understood could cause irreversible changes throughout the international socioeconomic community.
Individuals must consider the grave potential for scientific and cultural shock that could result from premature dissemination or thoughtless use of the information provided by those that disclose.

I have been charged with the responsibility and accountability to design, develop and deploy another HAARP program now called GAIACOMM.

You may follow its public progress periodically as deemed necessary.

I will still be available for comment if those of you wish to stay informed!

[gaiacomm]

One last entry:

All of you have very important points and they all make sense.
The problem is that none of you has the authority or command to suggest and influence the individuals that have masterminded the Middle East war or any other conflict.
America is very guilty of miss-leading the public at large and others within certain offices to the real reasons why these invasions must take place. It is not religion but control of natural resources and its people to accept democratic policies to absorb and pillage the land and its people for complete control of all to satisfy some revelation that these few should be the masters of the earth and enjoy its fruit.

The Paradigm must rest with us to change these systems of governments and spread the wealth. These people did not appear from some divine intervention but were reared in the same environment as we with one exception they formed an alliance long ago and convinced us with false truths that they would lead us all into freedom and peace. Well now, look around you and see what few bones they have cast down in our pits.

Our own fears and ignorance is what these people rely on and our addictive behaviors to comforts that they place in front of us to grow accustomed to, to the point that we cannot part with them. At that point, it is then used as a tool to corner and control our thoughts and movements. The simple freedoms we have are a small piece to what really is out there for us.

We have only ourselves to blame if we are dissatisfied with the geopolitical politics that plays out each day for our entertainment. The military is controlled by false promise and meager wages. The politians that create wars never are first in line to fight along side with others. Did Bush stand with his troops on the front line and yell charge? Did Tony Blair?

Loss of life for someone else’s gain is not right and should be dealt with by the people affected. We know that Saddam was a mass murderer but the USA helped him into power. Now the USA helped him out of power. In addition, we all sit and throw stones because we feel it is right and we fear of standing up in the crowd and demanding a recall.

We accept that the USA and others hold truth to protect whom? The guilty?
Does anyone really wish to see all of us live together and exchange ideas?

A clear indication that the USA started off on the wrong foot when in its Declaration of Independence it stated that all Men are created equal…. When it should have read all Men and Women are created equal.

We are all intelligent and understand that women are equal to us.

They are HUMAN BEINGS! As for differences, well that is what we all iron out thru discussions and open debate to setup a system that allows for freedom of expression without the fear of reprisal and ridicule. The Planet is not prejudice and provides everything we need to improve ourselves and live free. Every tool, machine, food, weapon, technology, everything we touch came from the earth and was reshaped to our will. We do not have to live as we do, the laws of Physics and Science do not define these rules we live by. We can easily change them with our will! Our brains have the ability to do anything we choose. The computers and internet was formed inside someone’s brain then they went to gather the parts from the earth to make what we see and feel each day.

It is not a religion that controls us but ourselves allowing others to control. If we combine, our intellects together we can accomplish much, but we must all change ourselves from within first then we can proceed. It does not take centuries to change if we all are willing to sacrifice some to gain more lately.

The Media controls us and we accept that because we feel that we can do nothing but talk amongst ourselves and hope that it will get better. Well it will not as long as you all sit on your hands and wait for the other person to take the risk.
We all can debate and write essays all day but outside there are wars, death, poor, sick, uneducated, murder, rape, lies, enslavement, and so many other controls that we have learned to accept by being enabled by our leaders and peers that we put so much faith into.
We can replace and redirect the world events if we work together and demonstrate that we are tired of being tired and as the famous quote from the movie Network, “I am as mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore

One last thought, if the French had not assisted the USA during the separation from England what would it be like now? If the Black Slaves who numbered 200,000 had not joined, the Union Army would the Civil War’s outcome been different.

Think about it!

Dr. Judah Ben-Hur

[gaiacomm]

To: Members and Guests:
I know this will not come to you all as a surprise but due to the current situation in Iraq and other hot spots that involve US and its allies in an effort to eliminate terror I have been politely asked to cease all public activities up to and including public forums that involve message boards unauthorized press releases, public comments of opnions and facts from a technical nature. This of course includes haap2 information.I must comply with Homeland Security mandates, period! I am quite aware that I did not disclose entirely the inner workings of haarp and that was due to professional protocol. In the beginning I did strongly consider releases to educate and inform but quickly realized the audience and its lack of real concern was mixing words and quick to critize. Some of you were correct that I did not belong on this forum for whatever reasons. I attempted to use this as a oulet for honest exchange but failed. In short I made a mistake posting on this forum and I apologize to all if I offened anyone in any way. This board is an excellent way to vent frustration at the system and in some cases even make a dollar or two.
The nature of my current project and its relationship with the US has forced me back into the world of the "MATRIX". I know that if I do not return and assist there is a high probability that some of the claims and technology that exists will be developed and possibly used against anyone that forces that objective. I am not alone but have been recalled with others to go back underground for a time. The website and its project will still be there to view but will not disclose confidential information. After careful viewing you can read the advisor and management list that is quite diverse at this point in time. And the list is growing. The front page of the website even displays a small taste of product and technoloy. I have to refrain from disclosing compromising information that could be used to compete.
The chemtrail website is and has been under watchful eye from those that are paid to report abnormal variations in the normal flow. My brief stay here has caused a small ripple that was picked up and acted upon.
I will say that a great majority of information that is posted here has great merit but rememeber that the whole truth is and will never be allowed to make it for the public to see. There are secerts that are kept tighter than you can imagine and only small scraps thrown out to keep the dogs at bay. Of course one thing that cannot be prevented is the individual right to think and reason and that is what keeps the holders of secrets on their toes. We can all think and reason and can be right with our assumptions so what happens is "they" provide dis-informers and the like to keep us confused. And those of us that know we are right nobody cares to listen. So the frustration!
Some of you will accept my words and some of you will not. That is expected.
But I do wish to go on record that I was here and posted all that is here and did give an honest response.
Technology is dangerous if not properly managed and controlled. Such is haarp and other projects like it. The outcome is the slow and painful suffering and eventual death of all creatures on planet earth thru posioned air land and sea! I never thought that water would cost more than fuel!
I will attempt to answer questions and inform where permisable but I guess that does not fullfil the intent of this website.
I am done posting!

So you have your answer!

[halva]

Whatever these postings mean (and I think I have seen them before), they do not affect the situation on the ground, where the parameters remain as they were.

[liakopoulos]

WHAT DO WE HAVE HERE ? A HAPPY END? DO NOT BE SO HAPPY THOUGH . THE ZIONISTIC DARKNESS WAITS FOR ALL OF US AROUND THE CORNER. GOD BLESH THE SIMON WIESENTHAL CENTER.

[PHANTOM]

Hey Jay, is this Gagsoncum?

[airtankerpilot]

Phantom, arent you a former chemmie?

I thought you might have been at one time.

[lynn george]

C'mon bunkies, surely you can easily explain this. Perhaps just acuse me of lying. Or perhaps tell us how this is just a "weather front" passing through. Geoengineering is real. Tests ARE happening OFTEN at least around here. Geoengineering is being taught to even grade schoolers, you people are REALLY getting left behind regarding current technology. WEather and climate modification is BIG business with millions being spent
and it appears the military ALREADY "owns" the weather at least to a large degree. But I think you already know that. I REALLY do wonder what your purpose is here. Definately it seems Dis-information and attempts at ridicule rather than being able to refute anything. 4 dozen planes in less than several hours all SPRAYING huge billowing cloud like trails behind them, all the while regular traffic cruises back and forth overhead leaving quickly disapating contrails. Planes flying in S curves, 180's, right at each other and at sharp angles ALL VERY UNUSUAL for this part of MIssouri. There was SOME kind of operation going on why are bunkies so quick to try and ridicule anyone who may have in FACT seen SOME of the many weather modification efforts and experiments underway. What do you all work for the MILITARY of FEd or something? Get real. SOMEONE is flying "aimlessly" around above MY skies and through Binocs it LOOKS like some kind of tanker or commercial planes.And they are spreading HUGE WHITE BILLOWING SPREADIN G

TRAILS all the while regular traffic is ONLY leaving contrails as they fly AMONG each other.

Believe it if you want to, or not doesn't matter, about a third of everyone I work with is chemtrail aware and many many many people now worldwide. Our environment seems to be having potentially some VERY serious problems, and it is already starting to get hot here, and it seems there have been some "tests" around here above the county involved with "cloud creation" experiments of some kind. or potentially some type of cloud mapping or perhaps wind currents or such, but maybe more I think as a potential way to provide "cooling" as the chemtrail applications do "shade" the sun and "turn it down". I work daily with many scientists. We're NOT stupid SOMETHING is being dispersed in SOME type of NON_NORMAL ( as regards commercial transportation) air traffic EVENT. LIke a nest of "hornets" they came, they chemtrailed, and they left, leaving a huge quickly spreading ChemHaze that cut down the intensity of the sun. Stop downplaying it and let's talk about just which prpograms and tests you ARE aware of instead of staying miles away from that subject.

SmT







For those that missed it, ignored it, or spammed it: 8)




So is it your purpose to bury all of my and others posts that deal with chemtrails and geoengineering ,with constant spamming about onions and toilets. Perhaps you could start another thread or two, maybe dealing with toilets on one, and perhaps onions on one, and perhaps a third on non-obvious de-bunker techniques.


But for anyone else concerned about the topics here, as I described before today was a MASSIVE spray day one of the most blatant I have seen in the last several months. Two days ago we had intermittant clouds and NO chemtrails NOT ONE, with jets flying what we have come to observe as normal patterns, mostly east/west, fairly sporadic, and leaving only the seconds long quickly disapating contrails. Yesterday the sky was magnificant blue with jet traffic again fairly sporadic, "normal" for this area flight paths being flown and again jets leaving only quickly disapatting contrails. Today however upon arising I noticed numerous persistant trails had been left out in the west apparently overnight in a mostly unusual north/south direction. Then several planes came and put down persistant trails in the north. Then some out to the east. Then planes started coming so fast, spreading huge bilowing smokey like white trails, and they started flying directly at each other making huge white fluffy X's and they started turning semicircle's and flying straight and then veering of at right angles. What an amazing show! Though the sky had been originally a pretty blue this huge programs looked like a nest of hornets out, it was really quite amazing. And luckily we got it on VIDEO. And we captured scattered regular traffic flying through the same area leaving only seconds long contrails and in one case I actually filmed this 'commercial' looking plane flying the usual east west route leaving absolutely NO trail all the while these 'hornets' were OBLITERATING the blue in the sky and turning it to a WHITE HAZE. Teller said the whiteness of the sky would be easily observable to the public during aplications of his "sky shield' and it seemed to be a concern people would notice. And some definately are. I will try and get some pics of today on here, it was really really quite amazing. Blatant, in your face, CHEMTRAILING!

SmT

[airtankerpilot]

Four dozen plane over several hours is not anything unusual, especially if it is a heavily traveled jet route. Some major airports have that many aircraft movements in far less time.

Yes some might make trails and some might not. They are not all the same type of plane, flying at the same power setting. Some could be at upper 20s, while some, such as 777 and 747 tend to fly higher. The Gulfstream V and Citation X routintely cruise at upper 40K to lower 50k.
You have no way of knowing by eyeball, if they are all at same altitude or not.

Big billowing trails? I have seen plenty of photos of trails. Go to airliners.net and you can find dozens.

So what if someone works for the airlines? I dont, but they would certainly be far more informed about aviation.

You still come up with lots of allegations, but havent produced any evidence. Yes there are weather fronts, and yes the same mechanisms that cause natural cirrus, help to make aviation cirrus too.

There are still no photos of any spraying gear, nor any lab samples of anything. Heck there still isnt agreement on what or who is doing it.
Its still just up to the feelings of that particular chemmie

Is this a sprayplane?

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/332946/M/

These airliners spraying too? They are making that evil X letter

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/333144/M

[lynn george]

ATP_"Four dozen plane over several hours is not anything unusual, especially if it is a heavily traveled jet route. Some major airports have that many aircraft movements in far less time."

SmT-Well it's unusual for here especially when they fly around in circles leaving long smokey white spreading trails. Sporadic mainly east-west traffic is the norm with scattered planes from other several other directions.



ATP-"Yes some might make trails and some might not. They are not all the same type of plane, flying at the same power setting. Some could be at upper 20s, while some, such as 777 and 747 tend to fly higher. The Gulfstream V and Citation X routintely cruise at upper 40K to lower 50k.
You have no way of knowing by eyeball, if they are all at same altitude or not."

SmT-Yes that's true, but the type I am interested in (Chemtrails rather than contrails) are the type put down on very clear days when their are no clouds in the sky, with dozens of planes coming out spraying and obliterating the sky turning it into that infamous ChemSky White. Flying back and forth spreading "something" that spreads ENTIRELY across the sky.





ATP-"Big billowing trails? I have seen plenty of photos of trails. Go to airliners.net and you can find dozens.
So what if someone works for the airlines? I dont, but they would certainly be far more informed about aviation.
You still come up with lots of allegations, but havent produced any evidence. Yes there are weather fronts, and yes the same mechanisms that cause natural cirrus, help to make aviation cirrus too."

SmT- There is plenty of evidence, mountains of it everything from the military's own acknowledgement of "owning the weather by 2025" to, ExxonMobil spending millions of dollars on geoengineering research. The WMO openly advocates and actively supports "weather modification", and the military has been shown to have had biological chemtrail programs back for decades. But the biggest fact is the personal observations of the American people, people into the tens if not hundreds of thousands that know full well there are attempts going on to "mitigate" certain environmental concerns, and yes release chemical trails in pursuit of those goals. Many many tests appaently some very large scale appear to be going on above many parts of the world, people ARE looking UP and noticing. Something is being spread INTENTIONALLY, often in CLOUDLESS solid blue skies. And every time it seems right before it's about to get "unseasonably" warm.



ATP-"There are still no photos of any spraying gear, nor any lab samples of anything. Heck there still isnt agreement on what or who is doing it.
Its still just up to the feelings of that particular chemmie"

SmT- You like that word "chemmie" don't you? :D



Is this a sprayplane?

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/332946/M/

These airliners spraying too? They are making that evil X letter

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/333144/M[/quote]




SmT-WE're not all lying or even mistaken. SOME type of IRREGULAR aerial program is being administered here about twice a week. I don't expect anyone to necessarily believe it though until they have personally witnessed it. And really all that entails is to take the time to spend several days simply looking up at the sky and observing and comparing and soon it becomes quite obvious. OPERATIONS of dozens of planes that come out within a short time and "turn down the sun" are a reality. But don't take my word for it. Many sources and links have been displayed here in this thread to the many scientific papers now calling for geoengineering. It's not all that secret anymore. Look up, and read up.

SmT

[PHANTOM]

ATP asked
"Phantom, arent you a former chemmie?

I thought you might have been at one time."

Why yes I WAS, you bet!

Of course, after the success of my book "Everything you ever wanted to know about CHEMTRAILS but were afraid to ask", book signing tours, lecturing circuit tour and the continuing sales of my latest invention (which hasn't even been advertised yet) CHEMTPLANE REROUTER APPARATUS, (affectionately known as CRAP) I am satisfied with my wealth and content to live out my life in euphoria. :lol:

[letxa2000]

SmT-Well it's unusual for here especially when they fly around in circles leaving long smokey white spreading trails. Sporadic mainly east-west traffic is the norm with scattered planes from other several other directions.

Pictures? Or, better yet, video? So we can take a look at what's going on in your area?

[liakopoulos]

1971 years ago the jews crucified our Lord Jesus.

[lynn george]

ATP asked
"Phantom, arent you a former chemmie?

I thought you might have been at one time."

Why yes I WAS, you bet!

Of course, after the success of my book "Everything you ever wanted to know about CHEMTRAILS but were afraid to ask", book signing tours, lecturing circuit tour and the continuing sales of my latest invention (which hasn't even been advertised yet) CHEMTPLANE REROUTER APPARATUS, (affectionately known as CRAP) I am satisfied with my wealth and content to live out my life in euphoria. :lol:

Excellent. You certainly would be entitled to any wealth you might happen to make and euphoria you might derive from helping to enlighten the public on current very serious environmental concerns being blacked out of the State Run Media. But of course the only real economic concern most citizens would have regarding current geoengineering/chemtrail projects is how perhaps the loss of sunlight might directly affect health or income, and perhaps how the substances injected into the atmosphere actually affected human health on the ground, from fallout. I entirely agree with the idea MOREpeople need to be doing more testing which is relatively easy and not very expensive at all. And here I'm talking about sampling at or near gound level, as a START to see what is coming DOWN. Rainwater is an excellent thing to start sampling just to get some kind of idea if there are ANY unwanted contaminants and then attempting to perhaps identify possible sources. Even something as simple as putting out black cloth in a frame above the ground to act as a filter to filter rainwater has been reported to capture metallics/particles/ fibers that are said to "glow very vibrantly" when subjected to black light. Such simple TYPES of tests can satisfy individuals needs to be more proactive in seeing just what is in the immediate environment. And should any of these "preliminary" types of tests caputure anything significant then further testing might be considered and possibly warranted. And of course an ultimate type of test would be to pay the approx. $1500 or perhaps a bit more to go up and do a short prelim study of an actual chemtrail. It would need not be very elaborate to determine whether a more advanced study would be in order. Just perhaps filterings of different trails to capture perhaps the usually mentioned metals of aluminum, barium, titanium, etc. and perhaps a small biological sample or two and perhaps some simple gas determinations. Many labs now can analyze metal samples on ICP equipment at often a rate of so much per sample which is entirely affordable even to novices and small groups.

SmT

[liakopoulos]

THIS IS MY FINAL ENTRY. I CONGRATULATE YOU ALL ON PARTICIPATING AT ARIANNA'S. DEBUNKERS ARE GONE. I GUESS THIS IS IT.... TAKE CARE EVERYBODY.

[PHANTOM]

"...analyze metal samples on ICP equipment..."

ICP = INSANE CLOUD POSSE'

:roll: :roll: :P


over? ......... NOTHING'S OVER TILL WE SAY ITS OVER!

are ya with me? .................

LET'S GO!!

[halva]

"Climate Change and Geoengineering" is on-line in Greek at

http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=207958

[Bonehead9]

Even something as simple as putting out black cloth in a frame above the ground to act as a filter to filter rainwater has been reported to capture metallics/particles/ fibers that are said to "glow very vibrantly" when subjected to black light.


Are you serious? I can think of a dozen reasons why this so-called test is totally without any validity. To begin with, you would have to ensure that the cloth is not contaminated by rain splash from the ground or from passing auto traffic. How high were the frames suspended above the ground? Furthermore, if you are near a residence, you have to also be sure that you are not picking up any dryer lint that may have contaminated the vicinity.

Finally, and this is oh, so important, you have to demonstrate that whatever metal/particles/ fibers that you have captured are indeed anthropogenic, and are not in anyway naturally occurring. Since you don’t even know what these materials are, you can’t even begin to make any assessment on them.


Such simple TYPES of tests can satisfy individuals needs to be more proactive in seeing just what is in the immediate environment. And should any of these "preliminary" types of tests caputure anything significant then further testing might be considered and possibly warranted. And of course an ultimate type of test would be to pay the approx. $1500 or perhaps a bit more to go up and do a short prelim study of an actual chemtrail. It would need not be very elaborate to determine whether a more advanced study would be in order. Just perhaps filterings of different trails to capture perhaps the usually mentioned metals of aluminum, barium, titanium, etc. and perhaps a small biological sample or two and perhaps some simple gas determinations. Many labs now can analyze metal samples on ICP equipment at often a rate of so much per sample which is entirely affordable even to novices and small groups.

SmT

Laboratory analysis for aluminum, titanium and barium will run you between $35, and $50 per sample (the lab should supply the actual sample jars with the appropriate preservative.)

If you are interested in collecting actual samples from common contrail altitudes, then you may indeed have to get a little creative. Here are some interesting reports from people who are involved in that kind of research right now.

Aviation, Aerosols, Contrails and Cirrus Clouds (http://www.aero-net.org/a2c3/a2c3_summary.pdf)


AMBIENT AEROSOL SAMPLING USING ONLINE MASS SPECTROMETRY: RESULTS FROM GROUND- AND AIRCRAFT BASED MEASUREMENTS (http://www.mpch-mainz.mpg.de/%7Eschneid/pubs/AMBIENT_AEROSOL_SAMPLING_USING_ONLINE_MASS_SPECTRO METRY.pdf)

Freezing thresholds and cirrus cloud formation mechanisms inferred from in situ measurements of relative humidity (http://www.atm.dal.ca/~lohmann/papers/Haag-2003APC.pdf)


Another must read: Cirrus cloud occurrence as function of ambient relative humidity: a comparison of observations obtained during the INCA experiment (http://www.copernicus.org/EGU/acp/acp/3/1807/acp-3-1807.pdf)



SMT – read these reports and let me know what you think of them.

[ICU812]

These are great links Bonehead. 17% of the atmosphere capable of supporting persistent contrails. Must be directly over the US of A.

All this cash tied up in atmospheric testing for projects like TRADEOFF/SUCCESS/SAGE/FIRE-ACE on and on
since 1997 does make it plausable that someone's got a great platform for monitoring atmospheric experiments. Even the hot new sat. program MODIS can be used to monitor the results of ........ contrail persistence.

Ever wonder why all the recent interest in water vapor?

I do appreciate all the info. because I still consider myself on the bottom end of an atmospherically dynamic learning curve and briefly reading another barage of contrail analysis projects just generates more questions.

Are there currently any past or ongoing classified "atmospheric projects or programs" being conducted by NASA/UNEP/EDU./MIL./DARPA/DOE or other type GOV. body?

What research has been performed using Aluminum Oxide in relation to atmospheric sciences?
What were the results?
Who has performed this research and where are they employed now?
What value of Al is normal in our precipitation and what values are we currently seeing?
Is there a greater interest in the effects of Aluminum on plant material and forage crops since 1997?
What research was performed pre.... and past 1997?
Has Aluminum ever been suspended in a slurry and released from an aircraft...... other than chaff?

What were average atmospheric particulate values pre 1997 and what are they now?
What changes have occured to visibility parameters for aircraft in recent years, who inititated the changes and why?

What research has been done to utilize the thermodynamic properties of a gas turbine engine and release particles through it as indicated in the Welsbach Patent?
Who did the research and what were the results?
Has the theory of particulate release through a gas turbine engine ever been applied, ......by who .....and what were the results?

Has a KC-135 (or similiar acft) ever been involved in experiments in atmospheric sciences?
What were the experiments?
Does the MAS System fit through the cargo door of a KC-135?
Where are KC-135's petro 011 and 012 based and what role do they perform?
Are decomissioned commercial aircraft ever purchased by GOV. departments and used for atmospheric research?
Do persistent contrails show up on ATC radar and what are the reporting timelines and procedures for ATCer's when they do?
Is this public information and where can one see the data?

What research has been performed using Barium in relation to atmospheric sciences or communications?
Who did the experiments and what were the results?

Are Jepperson flight charts or similiar aircraft navigation charts available to the general public to determine jet-airways?

Is it possible for the public to access uppersounding information to determine if persistent contrails they are seeing can be supported by the atmospheric conditions in which the contrails persist?

I'll continue to look through your links for these answers, thanks.

[halva]

Putin adviser 'wants Russia to bury Kyoto'

April 12 2004 at 06:15AM



By Alister Doyle

Oslo - A key adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin wants Moscow to bury a United Nations plan to limit emissions of gases blamed for global warming, the World Wildlife Fund environmental group said on Monday.

But the WWF said arguments used by Kremlin economic adviser Andrei Illarionov, in recommendations to be discussed by the Russian government in coming weeks, exaggerated the economic costs of the Kyoto protocol for Russia.

The 1997 Kyoto pact will collapse or survive depending on Russia's decision after American President George Bush pulled the United States out in 2001, arguing that it was too expensive to implement and unfairly excluded developing nations.

Many experts reckon Russian emissions will not rebound to 1990 levels before 2012
"Illarionov wants Russia to reject Kyoto," Jennifer Morgan, director of the WWF's climate change programme, said. "But many of the arguments he uses are false."

She said the WWF had seen Illarionov's recommendations to Russian government ministries in a report dated March 16. No independent confirmation was immediately available.

Morgan said the Russian foreign ministry was due to give formal advice to Russia's parliament, which has the final say on Kyoto, by May 20. Either way, Russia's decision will be a watershed in international environmental co-operation.

Ratified by 121 nations, Kyoto is seen by its backers as a first step to reining in emissions of carbon dioxide from cars and factories that are widely blamed for blanketing the planet and driving up temperatures.

Many scientists say that rising carbon dioxide levels will trigger more frequent storms, droughts and floods. Sea levels may rise if glaciers melt and many species could be driven to extinction in a warmer world.

Morgan said Illarionov, a long-term Kyoto sceptic, portrayed Kyoto as based on dubious science by a fringe group. But she said it represented the best assessments by 2 500 scientists in a UN panel.

Kyoto needs backing by nations accounting for 55 percent of developed nations' carbon dioxide emissions to enter into force.

It has reached 44 percent and can only surpass 55 with Russia's 17 percent share after the US, the world's biggest polluter with 36 percent, pulled out.

"Illarionov says that Russia's emissions will exceed the limits set by the Kyoto protocol by 2012. That's simply not true," Morgan said.

Most industrial nations are meant to cut emissions by about five percent by 2008-12 from 1990 levels. Russia's emissions have tumbled since 1990 after the collapse of smokestack industries in the former Soviet Union.

Many experts reckon Russian emissions will not rebound to 1990 levels before 2012. That means Russia stands to gain billions of dollars by selling spare quotas abroad to nations exceeding their quotas.

Morgan also said Illarionov argued that the European Union, a strong backer of Kyoto, wanted Russia to cut its emissions by 50 percent or so in a second period to 2050.

"That's a complete falsehood. We don't know which countries will be in a second period, and don't even know if there will be one," she said.

Putin said in September that Russia was undecided on Kyoto, backing away from Moscow's previous promises to ratify soon. He said Russia might benefit from a warmer world, partly because agricultural areas might edge further north.

[Bonehead9]

These are great links Bonehead. 17% of the atmosphere capable of supporting persistent contrails. Must be directly over the US of A.

All this cash tied up in atmospheric testing for projects like TRADEOFF/SUCCESS/SAGE/FIRE-ACE on and on
since 1997 does make it plausable that someone's got a great platform for monitoring atmospheric experiments. Even the hot new sat. program MODIS can be used to monitor the results of ........ contrail persistence.



Scientific investigations of the atmosphere have been going on for a lot longer than that. Ivestigations of contrail formation and persistence have also been ongoing for a long time. The Air Force, as you can probably guess, has never liked like contrails. There is no point in building an aircraft with a low radar profile when it leaves a big fat contrail across the sky pointing to its exact position.


Ever wonder why all the recent interest in water vapor?


uh, because that is what contrails are made of?


I do appreciate all the info. because I still consider myself on the bottom end of an atmospherically dynamic learning curve and briefly reading another barage of contrail analysis projects just generates more questions.

Are there currently any past or ongoing classified "atmospheric projects or programs" being conducted by NASA/UNEP/EDU./MIL./DARPA/DOE or other type GOV. body?


Well if they are classified, I certainly wouldn’t know about them. :D


What research has been performed using Aluminum Oxide in relation to atmospheric sciences?
What were the results?
Who has performed this research and where are they employed now?
What value of Al is normal in our precipitation and what values are we currently seeing?


According to the various google searches, I have tried, there is not much interest in aluminum oxide in the atmosphere. Why do you assume that there is?

You can try looking at some of the studies that NASA has done in connection to exhaust emissions from the space shuttle solid rocket boosters. Those puppies pump out huge amounts of aluminum oxide. Some of it settles to earth near the launch pad, but I believe that they have detected traces of the exhaust emissions in the stratosphere. How long these rocket exhaust particles remain suspended after a shuttle launch, I don’t know.




Is there a greater interest in the effects of Aluminum on plant material and forage crops since 1997?
What research was performed pre.... and past 1997?
There is a lot of stuff available on the internet, but if you are lucky enough to be located near a library with copies of scientific journals, you might be able to look up back issues to check also.

One thing to remember is that analytical chemistry has improved tremendously over the past 5 to 10 years. We can now measure things down to incredibly low levels. I am sure that there are researchers that are going back and repeating old experiments using more sophisticated techniques.


Has Aluminum ever been suspended in a slurry and released from an aircraft...... other than chaff?


Don’t know, Why do you think that it has?


What were average atmospheric particulate values pre 1997 and what are they now?
This can be a little bit like comparing apples and oranges. See my response above regarding the increased sensitivity of analytical techniques.

Have you looked at the CARB (http://www.arb.ca.gov/adam/toxics/toxics.html) data yet?

Look at the data for the individual monitoring sites rather than the statewide averages. California is too big and too diverse to give the statewide averages much validity. Furthermore, you have to consider the various factors that can effect the data, wildfires, droughts, changes in industries near the monitoring sites all have a direct impact on the data. In addition, China (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/12/021220075156.htm) is a significant source of toxics in California.


What changes have occured to visibility parameters for aircraft in recent years, who inititated the changes and why?


Ask Airtankerpilot


What research has been done to utilize the thermodynamic properties of a gas turbine engine and release particles through it as indicated in the Welsbach Patent?
Who did the research and what were the results?
Has the theory of particulate release through a gas turbine engine ever been applied, ......by who .....and what were the results?

Hey, did you know that aluminum oxide is a common component in kitchen cleansers?


Has a KC-135 (or similiar acft) ever been involved in experiments in atmospheric sciences?
What were the experiments?

a lot of different types of sample/experiment platforms have been used by various research groups.

I think that there was even one project that involved putting a small sensor package onboard a number of transatlantic flights.

What is your point?



Does the MAS System fit through the cargo door of a KC-135?
Where are KC-135's petro 011 and 012 based and what role do they perform?
Are decomissioned commercial aircraft ever purchased by GOV. departments and used for atmospheric research?
Do persistent contrails show up on ATC radar and what are the reporting timelines and procedures for ATCer's when they do?
Is this public information and where can one see the data?

What research has been performed using Barium in relation to atmospheric sciences or communications?
Who did the experiments and what were the results?

Are Jepperson flight charts or similiar aircraft navigation charts available to the general public to determine jet-airways?

Is it possible for the public to access uppersounding information to determine if persistent contrails they are seeing can be supported by the atmospheric conditions in which the contrails persist?

I'll continue to look through your links for these answers, thanks.

Is there a point to all of these questions?

If I can google it, so can you.

[lynn george]

Bonehead9 said"Are you serious? I can think of a dozen reasons why this so-called test is totally without any validity. To begin with, you would have to ensure that the cloth is not contaminated by rain splash from the ground or from passing auto traffic. How high were the frames suspended above the ground? Furthermore, if you are near a residence, you have to also be sure that you are not picking up any dryer lint that may have contaminated the vicinity.

Smt- Actually B9, I think the very simple entry level test I mentioned with the black cloth has quite a bit of validity. REmember in scientific environmental analysis often very very simple tests are done as PRELIMINARY work in order to justify if further work is warranted. As with ANY tests one must try and avoid contamination, of course. If one can fitler rain water using "good laboratory practice" and the filter shows glowing particulates, then perhaps one might repeat the test again, this time attempting to capture particulates for further ICP type (or mass spec. ect.) analysis. Or even there are some kits I think one can get for home use from the science catalogues. I guess it depends on what level of examination ( and one considers evidence) that one wants to pursue.


B9 said"Finally, and this is oh, so important, you have to demonstrate that whatever metal/particles/ fibers that you have captured are indeed anthropogenic, and are not in anyway naturally occurring. Since you don’t even know what these materials are, you can’t even begin to make any assessment on them."

SmT- Good grief, B9 in work in a lab, that performs among many other things environmental residue work, field studies, analytical chemestry etc. etc. and that is great if one wants to pursue things at that level. But I mentioned the black clothe to filter rainwater as a very basic STARTING point for any so inclined, as I have read of people USING it and finding the very thing I mentioned. Perhaps THOSE that are so inclined to test the quality of their surrounding might find it useful. But if you are looking for Mass Spec work or similar and want to see things down at the ppb level I guess we could do that too. What I am simply suggesting is that preliminary work of some kind might be in order and well worth examining first.






Such simple TYPES of tests can satisfy individuals needs to be more proactive in seeing just what is in the immediate environment. And should any of these "preliminary" types of tests caputure anything significant then further testing might be considered and possibly warranted. And of course an ultimate type of test would be to pay the approx. $1500 or perhaps a bit more to go up and do a short prelim study of an actual chemtrail. It would need not be very elaborate to determine whether a more advanced study would be in order. Just perhaps filterings of different trails to capture perhaps the usually mentioned metals of aluminum, barium, titanium, etc. and perhaps a small biological sample or two and perhaps some simple gas determinations. Many labs now can analyze metal samples on ICP equipment at often a rate of so much per sample which is entirely affordable even to novices and small groups.

SmT

Laboratory analysis for aluminum, titanium and barium will run you between $35, and $50 per sample (the lab should supply the actual sample jars with the appropriate preservative.)

If you are interested in collecting actual samples from common contrail altitudes, then you may indeed have to get a little creative. Here are some interesting reports from people who are involved in that kind of research right now.

Aviation, Aerosols, Contrails and Cirrus Clouds (http://www.aero-net.org/a2c3/a2c3_summary.pdf)


AMBIENT AEROSOL SAMPLING USING ONLINE MASS SPECTROMETRY: RESULTS FROM GROUND- AND AIRCRAFT BASED MEASUREMENTS (http://www.mpch-mainz.mpg.de/%7Eschneid/pubs/AMBIENT_AEROSOL_SAMPLING_USING_ONLINE_MASS_SPECTRO METRY.pdf)

Freezing thresholds and cirrus cloud formation mechanisms inferred from in situ measurements of relative humidity (http://www.atm.dal.ca/~lohmann/papers/Haag-2003APC.pdf)


Another must read: Cirrus cloud occurrence as function of ambient relative humidity: a comparison of observations obtained during the INCA experiment (http://www.copernicus.org/EGU/acp/acp/3/1807/acp-3-1807.pdf)



SMT – read these reports and let me know what you think of them.[/quote]

[lynn george]

Heres's something else to think about:

Let's just put on hold for a minute the debate over whether contrails/chemtrails/geoengineering trails are intentionallly being spread over many parts of the world and just see if we can agree on the following at least. Is there anyone that has NOT watched planes come out on a SOLIDLY blue sky day, one with NO clouds anywhere visable, low humidity, and watched dozens of fat white spreading trails get put down in only hours with a resulting "ChemHaze" covering the sky from horizon to horizon? Is there anyone still that doesn't realize that if one watches the entire day on can observe that approx. 100% of the "cloud cover" on these reported "spray days" is from planes and can be laid down in just hours? I have Personally witnessed this REGULARLY, that the ONLY cloud cover created on many many TOTALLY originally blue sky days originates from behind planes and grows to fill the Entire sky often quite quickly. Anyone that has NOT seen this???

SmT

[Bonehead9]

There is one very important point that you are missing, The humidity at ground level is totally unrelated to the humidity at 35,000 feet. In fact, if you read the reports I linked to above, you will see that there can be thin layers of high (>100% RHI) humidity at these levels. in fact Even though the sky looks clear and blue to you, does not mean thatthere aren't cirrus clouds up there, it is just thattthey are so thin and far away, that you can not distinguish them.

Read the reports

[letxa2000]

SMT: Is there anyone that has NOT watched planes come out on a SOLIDLY blue sky day, one with NO clouds anywhere visable, low humidity, and watched dozens of fat white spreading trails get put down in only hours with a resulting "ChemHaze" covering the sky from horizon to horizon?

I haven't.

Late last month I drove from Mexico to Colorado (2-day drive through Texas, New Mexico, Colorado), was in Colorado for 2 weeks, then did the 2-day drive back to Mexico. This is the first time I've been back in the U.S. since stumbling upon the chemtrail theory and I was definitely looking for them. I didn't see a singel contrail during my drive through Texas (not much else to do when driving in Texas than looking for contrails!), and all the contrails I saw up and down the Front Range (Pueblo CO through Denver) were very brief. I can't even say I saw a single persistent contrail during the whole period. Nothing but blue sky... which was perfect for doing some flying around Denver and down to Pueblo and back.

I guess I was just lucky and caught the rare 2-weeks of blue sky in Colorado since BoomerChick has mentioned that "spraying" is pretty common over Colorado Springs. :)

[airtankerpilot]

Petro is a callsign I think used by Washington state Air National Guard KC-135 unit. There can be also a KC-10 unit that uses that. The number probalby not a permanent plane identification.

If you people are so intent that aerial refueling is just a ruse for chemtrail spraying, it is not hard to get photos of those planes. Some of those units, especially ANG units are often at commercial airports. Easy to see when parked, or taking off and landing. Yet not a single photo of one with spraying gear.

However lots of conspiracy kook talk allegations about its refueling gear on the back of the plane, when if they would do 5 seconds of research, they can see that is the refueling system.

As for RH, chemmies should realize that is a component of it, along with air density too. Extremely cold thin air is not exactly an environment for rapid evaporation.

[airtankerpilot]

I haven't.

Late last month I drove from Mexico to Colorado (2-day drive through Texas, New Mexico, Colorado), was in Colorado for 2 weeks, then did the 2-day drive back to Mexico. This is the first time I've been back in the U.S. since stumbling upon the chemtrail theory and I was definitely looking for them.

WHere in NM did you go to? I will be in Silver City starting next week, flying a DC-4 for the summer. I am in CA for training right now, had an engine fail on my evil forest fire chemtanker today

[halva]

EU commissioner asks Russia to clarify stand on climate change treaty

MADRID (AFP) Feb 26, 2004
European Energy Commissioner Loyola de Palacio asked Russia on Thursday to make clear soon whether it intended to ratify the Kyoto Protocol on climate change, a decision vital to the future on the United Nations treaty.
The protocol requires developed countries to cut emissions of heat-trapping industrial gases which cause global warming. But it cannot enter force until it has been ratified by a certain percentage of polluting states.

Since the United States walked away from the deal in 2001, the arithmetic means that the Kyoto Protocol's future is in Russian hands. If Russia does not ratify it it, the treaty cannot come into force.

"We cannot wait until 2008 for Russia to make up its mind," Palacio told a news conference.

The signatories to the protocol have committed themselves to scaling back their emissions of six greenhouse gases to 1990 levels. They have to do so between 2008 and 2012.

"Uncertainty over this crucial question cannot be kept up until the last minute," Palacio added, explaining that decisions had to be made soon about where to relocate European industries as part of efforts to meet Kyoto's targets.

Palacio denied reports in Europe's leading business daily, the Financial Times, and in the Spanish financial newspaper Expansion that she intended to write off the EU's obligations under Kyoto to reduce greenhouse gas emissions if Russia did not ratify the treaty.

"To avoid all misunderstanding, I wish to say once again that the European Union is playing a fundamental part in the fight against climate change," she said.

"With or without Kyoto, the EU must retain the aim of reducing greenhouse gases by eight percent by 2012," she added, but it should at the same time "begin to look at the worst-case scenario" and work out ways of reaching the target without undermining the competitivity of EU industry.

"My impression is that Russia has no intention of ratifying, or that it will demand a price from the EU which we cannot pay," Palacio said.

[jayreynolds]

interesting stuff the last few days. I've been in west Texas myself the past four days and did see a few persistent contrails during the trip. I attended my parents 50th wedding anniversary and my father's 84th birthday. Got a chance to visit a brother-in-law's 1000 acre ranch.

Most of the time skies were very clear. "Chemtrails" are still just contrails, and nobody i spoke to had an inkling of the hoax, so I guess the chemies are still failing miserably in the general population.

I also see the chemmies haven't dared touch the ten deadly questions, and none dare identify the planes using Flight Explorer, or have tried to duplicate Thermit's study. If they were interested in the truth, they would have done that years ago, though..........
Jay

[halva]

Kyoto Pact Clouds U.N. Climate Conference
FRANCES D'EMILIO
Associated Press

ROME - Indications that Russia will reject the Kyoto pact on greenhouse gas reduction has participants at a U.N. conference worried that the global treaty might never get off the ground. When organizers, scientists and environmentalists began planning for the conference, which begins Monday and runs through Dec. 12 in Milan, many had hoped that Russia would have joined the protocol. The treaty, negotiated in 1997 in Kyoto, Japan, sets a target of cutting greenhouse gas emissions by 8 percent below 1990 levels by 2012. To date, 119 parties have signed on, but together they account for less than 55 percent of global greenhouse gas emissions, the threshold needed for the treaty to go into force. After President Bush rejected the treaty and its mandatory pollution reductions in 2001 as too harmful to the U.S. economy, Russia's support was needed to meet the 55-percent requirement. But in October, Russian President Vladimir Putin predicted that the pact would fail to reverse climate change, "even with 100 percent compliance." His economic adviser, Andrei Illarionov, contended the Kyoto Protocol would "doom Russia to poverty, weakness and backwardness." Under the pact, if a country exceeds its emissions levels, it can be forced to cut back on industrial production. Since the United States is the world's largest polluter, its refusal to join Kyoto is already "a big drag" on the battle to fight global warming, said Jonathan Pershing, a geologist heading the delegation of the World Resources Institute, a Washington environmental think tank. A rejection by Russia will further present a dilemma to those countries which have embraced the treaty, participants said. "There's a number of forks in the road," said Pershing. "Those countries who have said 'yes' go forward without a formal international treaty. But how do you do that?" Pershing said back-room discussions at the conference will cover the possibilities, including one option that nations could sign a series of bilateral deals with other Kyoto members. Up for discussion in Milan are rules under which industrialized nations can earn credits toward satisfying their own emission-reducing requirements by helping developing nations, which aren't required under the protocol to reduce emissions. Eligible projects range from making factories more energy efficient to helping promote forests, which absorb carbon dioxide, a chief greenhouse gas culprit. "It doesn't matter where a carbon molecule comes from," in terms of overall greenhouse gas buildup, said Alden Meyer, a conference participant from the Washington-based Union of Concerned Scientists. Meyer noted that the United States is a successful pioneer in what's known as emissions trading. Under a federal system, U.S. power companies can sell other companies credits they've earned for producing emissions linked to acid rain that are under capped levels. The U.S. undersecretary for global affairs, Paula Dobriansky, who will attend the conference's final, high-level sessions, said the discussions will help illustrate "how promoting cleaning energy and energy technology is certainly in the interest of developing and developed countries alike." The United Nations said the Milan conference will also evaluate efforts by governments to tackle the climate change challenge. "That 2003 is on track to be one of the warmest years on record should be a warning that we must all take seriously," said Joke Waller-Hunter, executive secretary of the U.N. Climate Change Convention. This spring, the European Union warned that 10 EU countries, including conference host Italy, are "way off track" for agreed targets on cutting greenhouse gas emissions. A rise in average temperatures has been blamed, at least in part, for melting glaciers and rising water levels, prompting fears that coming decades will witness floods, water shortages and hardships for animals. Retired Vice Adm. Conrad C. Lautenbacher Jr., administrator of the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, said some questions about climate change are yet to be fully understood: the length of a carbon cycle, the way the molecule circulates around the planet and what humans contribute to global warming. The United States aims to cut emissions by 18 percent over the next 10 years. "The current administration has a policy to reduce greenhouse gas emission," said Lautenbacher. "Whether the world accepts that or not is another issue. We are not being irresponsible" by rejecting Kyoto, he contended

[letxa2000]

WHere in NM did you go to? I will be in Silver City starting next week, flying a DC-4 for the summer. I am in CA for training right now, had an engine fail on my evil forest fire chemtanker today

I didn't really "go there," I just drove through it on the way to Denver. I drove down that 2-lane highway in northeastern New Mexico, the one that goes from Clayton NM to Raton. Stopped at Capulin Volcano since I've driven that route so many times and always thought to myself, "Someday I have to check out that volcano I keep driving past." So this time I did. No big deal, but it was nice to walk around the crater, stretch my legs, and mark the crater on my GPS (36.78368N, 103.96811W).

[airtankerpilot]

I know that area very well, and am actually looking at having a house built soon up in the northern part of the state.

Yes, I have seen planes in a blue sky. Also seen skies go from clear to hazy, or full of cirrus. Skies can go from blue to cirrus quite naturally, has always been happening. Just because planes fly over beforehand and during, doesnt mean the two are connected.

Planes do not make a sky full of cirrus. Upper level moisture can though, especially preceding weather front. Its been happening for millions and millions of years.

[halva]

Nick Paton Walsh, Moscow and Paul Brown
Tuesday September 30, 2003
The Guardian

President Vladimir Putin refused yesterday to commit Russia to ratifying the Kyoto treaty designed to cut global warming, backtracking on previous pledges and causing alarm in the EU and among environmental groups.
Opening a conference on climate change in Moscow, Mr Putin said Russia's decision would be in its "national interests", reflecting a debate in the country that some warming might be of benefit by allowing more grain to be grown. "There is an insistent call for Russia to ratify the Kyoto protocol as soon as possible. The government is closely studying this question. A decision will be taken when this work is finished."

Mr Putin added that more research into climate change was needed. Such a comment will cause delight in Washington, which has been trying to persuade the Russian president to join George Bush in repudiating the treaty.

Only Russia is now required to ratify the Kyoto protocol to the climate change convention to begin the process of legally enforceable reductions of greenhouse gases in the developed world.

The EU, Japan and the rest of the developed world, minus the US and Australia, adopted the agreement three years ago, but if Russia changed its mind Kyoto would be dead.

To bring the agreement into force, the countries causing 55% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions have to sign up. But with the US and Russia not included that would be impossible.

Mr Putin echoed Mr Bush's attitude yesterday when he said: "Modern science needs to determine the actual degree of danger posed by global climate change. Scientists should also help answer another crucial question about the limits of the impact of industry on the climate system."

The Liberal Democrat MEP Chris Davies, a member of the European parliament's climate change delegation, reflected EU dismay. "This is an extraordinary display of bad faith by President Putin that will sour his relations with the EU.

"For months Russia has insisted that it will eventually ratify the Kyoto protocol. It must be hoped that this announcement signals a last minute attempt at brinkmanship to extract further financial concessions out of the EU rather than heralding the collapse of the world's only agreement to curb global warming.

"The fear amongst European politicians is that President Putin is responding to behind-the-scenes pressure from the USA. If so he will damage the long-term interests of his country." Russia was keen to ratify Kyoto because it thought it could make money from the treaty. Russia is allowed to produce a certain amount of carbon, but the collapse of the economy in 1990 meant that it never reached its agreed quota.

The surplus carbon credits could be sold to other countries that were overproducing, netting Moscow millions of pounds. However, without the United States, which was expected to be the biggest buyer of these credits, it is hard to know how much Russia can now be expected to make.

Russian officials had sounded more upbeat about ratifying the treaty. The deputy minister for natural resources, Irina Osokina, said recently: "My ministry has sent the documents necessary for ratification to the government. Both the ministry and parliament are sure that the documents will be supported by the government."

Russian cynicism over the treaty's real benefits to its economy and environment still runs high though.

Yuri Israel, the former head of the Russian meteorological system, said there were big dangers in environmental damage but that, at its current industrial capacity, Russia could sell its right to pollute to other countries for "$4 to one tonne of carbon dioxide".

Viacheslav Nikonov MP said by ratifying the protocol "we can simply sell our future economic growth for a price we cannot even calculate yet".

But others said Russia's stalling destroyed its credibility. A former minister of ecology, Viktor Danilov-Danilyan, said: "A long-winding path to ratification practically is the same as refusal and would give Europe the pretext to seriously begin to think: can it really do business with Russia?"

Yet the effects of global warming may already be apparent. The second city of St Petersburg, the president's home town, is erecting flood barriers. Rising tides threaten the city in the next decade.

[Bonehead9]

Yet the effects of global warming may already be apparent. The second city of St Petersburg, the president's home town, is erecting flood barriers. Rising tides threaten the city in the next decade.


”Tide gauges, like the instruments used to collect surface temperature data, are subject to several local errors that can distort the data. Just as temperature data is affected by urban heat islands, tide gauges located at major cities or ports also are subject to urbanization – mainly the tendency of large cities to subside due to the weight of the structures and changes in the underground water table. The larger the city, the greater is the tendency toward subsidence. This is a creeping effect that, over time, will manifest itself at a tide gauge as a rise in relative sea level. Cities located on alluvial, low-lying coasts are the most affected.”

From a fascinating article (http://www.greeningearthsociety.org/Articles/2000/sea.htm) on sea level changes. Read it Halva.

[lynn george]

There is one very important point that you are missing, The humidity at ground level is totally unrelated to the humidity at 35,000 feet. In fact, if you read the reports I linked to above, you will see that there can be thin layers of high (>100% RHI) humidity at these levels. in fact Even though the sky looks clear and blue to you, does not mean thatthere aren't cirrus clouds up there, it is just thattthey are so thin and far away, that you can not distinguish them.

Read the reports

SmT- Sure B9, if you want to believe that dozens and dozens of commercial (military) looking planes (through binocs), that come out in several hours and fill a blue sky as they fly in circles and 180's and right at each other and blame it on "invisable" pockets of humidity go right ahead. If this is what you think I am referring to, you are WAY off base. The military/gov, INTENDS to OWN THE WEATHER and they are performing this very ACTION above my skies. And the skies of tens if not hundreds of thousands of other of the World's people. All people want is THE TRUTH. Almost everyone now where I work is becoming aware of "chemtrails". Many are simply interested in the science. Perhaps a few others more into the environmental effects. The history of America shows a LONG list of "sprayings" of The Citizens over decades, it is a FACT as we have also published links here. Perhaps you never "look up"? Eh?

SmT

[letxa2000]

SMT: Sure B9, if you want to believe that dozens and dozens of commercial (military) looking planes (through binocs), that come out in several hours and fill a blue sky as they fly in circles and 180's and right at each other and blame it on "invisable" pockets of humidity go right ahead.

No reason to put invisible in quotes. Most humidity is invisible. As for the planes, I'm still hoping we can get some pictures of that or, preferably, video.


If this is what you think I am referring to, you are WAY off base. The military/gov, INTENDS to OWN THE WEATHER and they are performing this very ACTION above my skies.

You definitely need to read this write-up (http://www.letxa.com/issue_2025.php) on the "Owning the Weather by 2025" document.

Or, better yet, just read the very beginning of the report (http://www.au.af.mil/au/2025/volume3/chap15/v3c15-1.htm#Disclaimer) which reads, in part: "The views expressed in this report are those of the authors and do not reflect the official policy or position of the United States Air Force, Department of Defense, or the United States government. This report contains fictional representations of future situations/scenarios."

The whole "owning the weather by 2025" is wishful thinking and science fiction and the report says as much. Amazing how people can try to read all kinds of evil things into a military document yet completely ignore the contents of the first two paragraphs that appear even before the table of contents!

[lynn george]

SMT: Sure B9, if you want to believe that dozens and dozens of commercial (military) looking planes (through binocs), that come out in several hours and fill a blue sky as they fly in circles and 180's and right at each other and blame it on "invisable" pockets of humidity go right ahead.

No reason to put invisible in quotes. Most humidity is invisible. As for the planes, I'm still hoping we can get some pictures of that or, preferably, video.


If this is what you think I am referring to, you are WAY off base. The military/gov, INTENDS to OWN THE WEATHER and they are performing this very ACTION above my skies.

You definitely need to read this write-up (http://www.letxa.com/issue_2025.php) on the "Owning the Weather by 2025" document.

Or, better yet, just read the very beginning of the report (http://www.au.af.mil/au/2025/volume3/chap15/v3c15-1.htm#Disclaimer) which reads, in part: "The views expressed in this report are those of the authors and do not reflect the official policy or position of the United States Air Force, Department of Defense, or the United States government. This report contains fictional representations of future situations/scenarios."

The whole "owning the weather by 2025" is wishful thinking and science fiction and the report says as much. Amazing how people can try to read all kinds of evil things into a military document yet completely ignore the contents of the first two paragraphs that appear even before the table of contents!


SmT-"Wishful thinking"??? What are you talking about?? Is the military also a part of this "hoax" as you call it? Yes, I guess, it is indeed a Hoax on the tax payers as they are potentially being made to pay to undermine their own health. DOZENS of Chemplanes over my Mid-Missouri skies spraying a cloud cover I can only conclude is meant to "turn down the sun"(Least detrimental possibly, among other possible motives) . Also why the "hoax" being taught in 7th grade class rooms, don't you think maybe if this indeed is a "hoax" we should stop teaching our very sons and daughters this "Science" that "isn't happening"??? Wink WinK... Get real, too many people know.Some people will admit they fully REALIZE geoenginering tests ARE happening and many of the Worlds Citizens are witnessing that also.

SmT

[letxa2000]

SMT: "Wishful thinking"??? What are you talking about?? Is the military also a part of this "hoax" as you call it? Yes, I guess, it is indeed a Hoax on the tax payers as they are potentially being made to pay to undermine their own health. DOZENS of Chemplanes over my Mid-Missouri skies spraying a cloud cover I can only conclude is meant to "turn down the sun"(Least detrimental possibly, among other possible motives) . Also why the "hoax" being taught in 7th grade class rooms, don't you think maybe if this indeed is a "hoax" we should stop teaching our very sons and daughters this "Science" that "isn't happening"??? Wink WinK... Get real, too many people know.Some people will admit they fully REALIZE geoenginering tests ARE happening and many of the Worlds Citizens are witnessing that also.

You mentioned "owning the weather" which is most definitely a reference to the "Owning the Weather by 2025" document by the Air Force. The first paragraph itself reads: "The views expressed in this report are those of the authors and do not reflect the official policy or position of the United States Air Force, Department of Defense, or the United States government. This report contains fictional representations of future situations/scenarios."

The disclaimer itself says the report "contains fictional representations". It doesn't get much clearer than that! It's a hypothetical scenario. It is no more indicative of the goals and beliefs of the military than the document that supposedly showed that the Pentagon believed global warming is a greater threat than terrorism (the Pentagon doesn't believe that and the report in question was also hypothetical, just as the "Owning the Weather" report).

Whether anything is happening in regards to chemtrails can certainly be discussed and analyzed on the merits of the evidence (or lack thereof), but the now famous "Owning the Weather by 2025" document certainly isn't any kind of evidence that should cause anyone to give any more credence to chemtrails.

A belief in chemtrails is, in my opinion, misguided based on the lack of evidence. But to use the "Owning the Weather by 2025" document as some kind of evidence in support of the same is disingenuous and raises the red flags of chemtrails being a hoax. If chemtrail believers need to point to hypothetical military documents that contains "fictional representations", it seems to me they're scraping the bottom in terms of looking for anything to grasp to in terms of would-be evidence.

[halva]

Extracts from Arianna Huffington’s “Fanatics and Fools”

p.4

That I should pick a side for 2004, especially one I’ve been criticizing as tired, intellectually bankrupt, and complicit in the current crisis, rather than advocate some new progressive coalition, is a big turnaround for me. In the years that have passed since my Republican interlude, I’ve been more comfortable on the outside of the two-party system because only from the outside, I believe, is the true geography of our national crisis visible. But from that perspective I have seen the crisis deepen alarmingly in recent times. We can’t wait any longer for some sort of tectonic change. So while keeping the fires of reform burning, I’m sticking my nose in the Democratic tent, hoping that the Democratic nominee will offer the progressive transformation this country so desperately needs.

p.5

At a ‘Conservative Summit’ in Washington D.C., sponsored by the National Review, I gave a speech entitled ‘Can Conservatives Have a Social Conscience’? The event was kicked off in bombastic style by Master of Ceremonies Charlton Heston, who smugly announced that he was ‘one of the most politically incorrect people’, because ‘I am heterosexual, Anglo-Saxon, married to the same woman for forty-nine years, and not the recipient of any entitlement of any kind.’

That type of statement tends to set a certain tone. Sitting on the dais, scanning my notes, I listened with mounting horror to the speaker who preceded me, Brent Bozell, who had been the national finance chairman of the legendarily inclusive ’92 Buchanan for President campaign. As Bozell’s hard-right homilies were paraded in front of what, in the interest of fairness, can only be described as an adoring crowd, I asked myself two questions: “How can he and I both call ourselves Republicans?’ and ‘Where is the nearest exit?’

p.6
The problem is not with rank-and-file Republicans but with the party’s leaders. The same conservative audience that gave a standing ovation to Bozell gave a standing ovation to me. We just appealed to different parts of their brains and their psyches.

p.11
It’s clear that the damage being done by the Republican fanatics – whether in Washington or Sacramento – is such that we cannot afford the kind of protest votes that are geared toward long-term reform. I didn’t have a problem with Ralph Nader’s running in 2000. But that was then and this is now.

[letxa2000]

One must pause to wonder what in the world Halva's last post had to do with the topic at hand...

[foot_soldier]

"airtankerpilot" wrote:

Planes do not make a sky full of cirrus.
That's not true.

Why don't you post some of the studies that have to do with the restructuring of regional and international Air Traffic Control to accommodate on-demand lowering of commercial flight altitudes in order to avoid excessive contrail formation and tell people why it is felt this is becoming necessary?

Why the Big Secret around all of this?

I think people should know about it, don't you?

[halva]

One must pause to wonder what in the world Halva's last post had to do with the topic at hand...

From "Climate Change Further Action Thread":

"My purpose in starting this thread was to highlight the differences, not the similarities, between the views, assumptions and outlooks of the OIKIA group in Athens and 'chemtrails' activists, including people who post at CTC, Megasprayer and here, and chemtrails activist groups.

Given the similarity in some way between the OIKIA assumptions and the Arianna assumptions, it was a similar starting point to that of the 'It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature" thread.

The debunkers are not interested in these differences: all they perceive are the similarities, for they are hostile both to the OIKIA viewpoint and to the chemtrail activist viewpoint.

Their interventions therefore derail the discussion, even before Liakopoulos and Gaiacomm start retaliating to them.

Note that Reynolds does not even try any more to win the hearts and minds of the OIKIA group as he tried to do with Arianna initially, saving her from the influence of chemmies."

[halva]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,12374,1192019,00.html

Putin adviser calls Kyoto protocol a 'death treaty'

Russia fears greenhouse gas limits would hold back economy

Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Thursday April 15, 2004
The Guardian

Russia appeared yesterday to spell an end to the Kyoto protocol when President Putin's top adviser on the controversial emissions treaty denounced the restrictions it would impose on the country's economy.
Andrei Illarionov said Kyoto would be a "death treaty". The economic restraints would, he said, stifle the economy like "an international gulag or Auschwitz". To come into effect, the treaty has to be ratified by Russia. The Kremlin has procrastinated. The last statement from Mr Putin in December said Russia could not ratify it in its current form as it placed restrictions on business that were against Russia's national interests.

Yet the Kremlin has remained silent on the issue for months, many analysts saying Mr Putin was anxious not to rock the boat before his re-election in March and might later seek a compromise. Yesterday's attack on the treaty indicated that the Kremlin had never been further away from ratification, experts said.

Speaking to reporters in St Petersburg, Mr Illarionov said the treaty "has very many negative implications" and would "stifle economic growth".

He likened the protocol's restrictions on normal economic freedoms to an "interstate gulag", except that, "in a gulag, people were at least given the same rations, which did not lessen from one day to the next.

"But the Kyoto protocol proposes decreasing rations day by day. The Kyoto protocol is a death treaty because its main purpose is to stifle economic growth and economic activity.

"If you set quotas on each of us requiring us to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 58% over a course of a certain period of time, we will have to turn into dwarves or babies, or to stop [breathing], which would have quite predictable results on our [body]," he said. An aide to Mr Illarionov said Mr Putin had yet to make up his mind and was only advised by Mr Illarionov, who had already formed an opinion.

He added that Mr Illarionov's comments were connected to a meeting between Mr Putin and a group of liberal economic reformers this week. He hinted that their advice was that the level of economic growth the Kremlin has promised - a doubling of GDP in 10 years - would be incompatible with the protocol.

"Maybe that is why it was raised again", the aide said.

Mikhail Delyagin, a former economic adviser to the government, said: "The statement confirms that Russia does not want to ratify the Kyoto protocol. It does not mean that it is coming directly from Putin - maybe Mr Putin is indifferent to this problem. But Mr Illarionov would never make a declaration that contradicts the president."

A Kremlin spokesman sought to distance Mr Putin from the remarks: "Russia hopes that it would be able to sign but as a result of achieving a certain compromise."

He said Mr Putin's previous position stood and put Mr Illarionov's outburst down to a sign of the "pluralism of opinions" upon which Mr Putin makes his decisions.

Kyoto was signed in 1997 by more than 180 countries. Developed countries agreed to cut greenhouse gas emissions by an average of 5.2% of 1990 levels by 2012. Russia was merely asked not to increase its levels; to double GDP while doing so would mean becoming more efficient, but only at a rate achieved elsewhere.


The United States, which has repudiated the treaty, is responsible for 24% of the world's carbon dioxide emissions and Russia for 17.4 %.

[Bonehead9]

Putin adviser calls Kyoto protocol a 'death treaty'
Russia fears greenhouse gas limits would hold back economy


Well no shit Sherlock!

That is precisely what the U.S. has said about the treaty.

The treaty is designed to hold back the economic development of the larger nations, but it favors the industrialization of poorer nations.

Think about this for a second, what do you think will happen when these third world nations finally do develop industrial bases? Do you think they will all of the sudden scale back the economy they have been trying to build for decades?

[halva]

Jewish Advocacy Groups Applauds United States' Signing of Kyoto Protocol
Joining Treaty Gives New Life to Ancient Teaching: "See to it that you do not destroy my world, for there is no one to repair it after you."
WASHINGTON, November 13, 1998 -- The Reform Jewish Movement, representing 1.5 million Reform Jews, 870 Reform congregations, and 1800 Reform rabbis, joined today with the Coalition on the Environment and Jewish Life (COEJL), an umbrella group comprised of 26 national Jewish organizations, to applaud the United States' signing of the Kyoto Protocol this week in Buenos Aires.

Mark J. Pelavin, assistant director of the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism and Mark X. Jacobs, director of Coalition on the Environment and Jewish Life, issued the following joint statement:

"The Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism (RAC) and the Coalition on the Environment and Jewish Life (COEJL) applaud the Clinton administration for signing the Kyoto Protocol to address global climate change. We have been working, together, to educate the American Jewish community about the dangers of global warming. Our organizations base our work on the biblical principles of stewardship and justice. Jewish tradition teaches us that we must act to protect the well-being of future generations, safeguard the integrity of creation, pursue justice for all people, and take responsibility for our own actions. Global warming poses a danger which challenges us to come together and act according to these age-old principles.

"Respected scientists from nearly every country agree that global warming is already a reality, and that if the world community does not take action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, sea levels will rise, the range of tropical diseases will spread, agriculture will be disrupted, storms will become more severe, and species will be driven to extinction. The Kyoto Protocol is an important international commitment to protect the world and its creatures. Preventing climate change is an issue of justice, as the poor and underpriviledged are likely to suffer most from the effects of global warming.

"The Kyoto Protocol stipulates that the United States reduce its greenhouse gas emissions to 7 percent below 1990 levels by the year 2012. The U.S. must significantly increase energy efficiency and the use of clean energy, such as wind, solar, and natural gas in order to meet this goal. We have faith in the innovative capacity of American industries and research institutions to help find creative solutions that will, in the long run, benefit, rather than harm, the U.S. economy

"We applaud the decisions of Argentina and Kazakhstan to take steps to address climate change, and we encourage other developing nations to consider their own contribution to global efforts. However, we affirm the primary responsibility of industrial nations to take bold steps to implement the Kyoto Protocol, since they are most responsible for the build-up of greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere. Indeed, the United States, with 5% of the world's population, is responsible for 25% of current emissions.

"We commend President Clinton and Vice President Gore for their courageous leadership on this issue, and we encourage the Administration to continue seeking creative solutions that will protect God's creation for our generation and for generations to come. Furthermore, we call on the 106th Congress to take up the issue of global climate change in a manner which reflects U.S. responsibility. We believe that the Kyoto Protocol is a vital contemporary response to an ancient command, 'See to it that you do not destroy My world, for there is no one to repair it after you.'" (Midrash Ecclesiastes Rabbah)

[letxa2000]

halva: Jewish Advocacy Groups Applauds United States' Signing of Kyoto Protocol
Joining Treaty Gives New Life to Ancient Teaching: "See to it that you do not destroy my world, for there is no one to repair it after you." WASHINGTON, November 13, 1998

So now you're reporting irrelevant stories from over half a decade ago about a proposed treaty that was dead and buried years ago when Bush stated clearly what the U.S. Senate had already said (in a 99-0 vote, I believe) while Clinton was still president: Kyoto is D.O.A..

The copy/paste marathon just gets more impressive by the day. :)

[halva]

Russian government wants to sell part of Russia’s greenhouse gas emission quotas / Image from ublib.buffalo.edu


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Economy Ministry Urges Putin to Ratify Kyoto Protocol
Created: 15.04.2004 16:03 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 16:18 MSK, 16 hours 44 minutes ago

MosNews



The Russian Ministries for Economy and Industry have urged the president to ratify the Kyoto Protocol so that Russia can start receiving investments from the EU, Canada and Japan in exchange for part of Russia’s quotas for greenhouse gas emissions. President Putin has not made a final decision yet.

Out of the 120 countries that signed the Kyoto Protocol only 32 have ratified it so far. One of the conditions of the agreement stipulates that it cannot be enforced until either Russia or the U.S. ratifies the protocol.

Andrei Illarionov, President Putin’s independent economic advisor, has come out strongly against the ratification of the protocol. According to Illarionov’s calculations, if economic growth in Russia continues at the rate of eight percent a year the country will exceed its quota for greenhouse gas emissions as early as 2007 and will have to buy quotas from other countries instead of selling them like the Economy Ministry proposes. The presidential advisor called on Putin not to ratify the protocol which, in his opinion, will choke economic growth in Russia.

The Economy Ministry’s calculations are quite different from those made by Illarionov. The ministry says that even if Russia’s economic growth remains at the level of eight percent a year, the average level of greenhouse gas emission in 2008-2012 will still be 15 percent less than the level determined for Russia in the Kyoto Protocol. The ministry’s economists claim that the money received for the sale of quotas will be spent to lower the energy consumption of the Russian economy.

Speaking to the Vedomosti business daily on condition of anonymity, the Economy Ministry official said that if the EU countries show real interest in purchasing emission quotas from Russia, the ratification of the Kyoto Protocol won’t be long in coming. The official also said that according to his sources, the Netherlands and several other European countries are in the process of preparing requests

[ICU812]

ICU: Thanks bonehead for at least making an attempt to answer questions that most debunkers of chemtrails won’t even touch. It is truly an honour having all the experts in one forum.


Quote:
Ever wonder why all the recent interest in water vapour?

Bonehead1 wrote:
uh, because that is what contrails are made of?


ICU: Not according to grida, but I’m guessing you mean that in proportion contrails are mostly water vapour…….right? I can dig up all kinds of contrail info on scirrus for you if you’d like. Contrails are not simply made of water vapour….but you knew that.


Bonehead1 wrote:
Well if they are classified, I certainly wouldn’t know about them.

ICU: That is the same problem I’m having when accessing information regarding high altitude heavies leaving unusual persistent contrails. It seems some of the information is classified, go figure.

You still maintain that high altitude heavies have never released anything out the back except exhaust even though you probably agree that classified projects exist…..is that right?


Bonehead1 wrote:
According to the various google searches, I have tried, there is not much interest in aluminum oxide in the atmosphere. Why do you assume that there is?

ICU: No assumption here bonehead1. I’ve read the publications about nanoscale powdered aluminum being used as nuclei in precipitation. Maybe try abusing a different search engine because you’re missing out on some great information. Start with Colostate university.

You still maintain that high altitude heavies have never released anything out the back except exhaust even though you haven’t really researched the possibilities that aluminum can be used as a nuclei…..is that right?


Quote:
Has Aluminum ever been suspended in a slurry and released from an aircraft...... other than chaff?

Bonehead1 wrote:
Don’t know, Why do you think that it has?
Is there a point to all of these questions?


ICU: You really don’t come across as a bonehead at all. You seem reasonably intelligent. These are questions that aren’t easy to answer, even for you.
The point to the questions is simple. Some individuals continue to say that a high altitude heavy has never released anything but exhaust yet none of these individuals have come forward to show they have researched the claims. The Q’s have only been there a few days so maybe we’ll find time to reveal the answers together.

These are just some of the questions that even Jay won’t touch because he’ll reveal all that he doesn’t know about high altitude releases.

Let’s start slowly.

Is it possible for Hughes to design an engine so a particulate can be released from it as described in the Welsbach patent and Stanford’s geoengineering publications?

The answer is….. Yes.

Are there currently any past or ongoing classified "atmospheric projects or programs" being conducted by NASA/UNEP/EDU./MIL./DARPA/DOE or other type GOV. body?

What research has been performed using Aluminum Oxide in relation to atmospheric sciences?
What were the results?
Who has performed this research and where are they employed now?
What value of Al is normal in our precipitation and what values are we currently seeing?
Is there a greater interest in the effects of Aluminum on plant material and forage crops since 1997?
What research was performed pre.... and past 1997?
Has Aluminum ever been suspended in a slurry and released from an aircraft...... other than chaff?

What were average atmospheric particulate values pre 1997 and what are they now?
What changes have occurred to visibility parameters for aircraft in recent years, who initiated the changes and why?

What research has been done to utilize the thermodynamic properties of a gas turbine engine and release particles through it as indicated in the Welsbach Patent?
Who did the research and what were the results?
Has the theory of particulate release through a gas turbine engine ever been applied, ......by who .....and what were the results?

Has a KC-135 (or similar acft) ever been involved in experiments in atmospheric sciences?
What were the experiments?
Does the MAS System fit through the cargo door of a KC-135?
Where are KC-135's petro 011 and 012 based and what role do they perform?
Are decommissioned commercial aircraft ever purchased by GOV. departments and used for atmospheric research?
Do persistent contrails show up on ATC radar and what are the reporting timelines and procedures for ATCer's when they do?
Is this public information and where can one see the data?

What research has been performed using Barium in relation to atmospheric sciences or communications?
Who did the experiments and what were the results?

Are Jepperson flight charts or similar aircraft navigation charts available to the general public to determine jet-airways?

Is it possible for the public to access upper sounding information to determine if persistent contrails they are seeing can be supported by the atmospheric conditions in which the contrails persist?

[halva]

It has been my suggestion for some time now that this thread (or rather the other thread, but the distinctions between them are not being observed) revert to notice board status, and debunker input be ignored.

[Bonehead9]

It has been my suggestion for some time now that this thread (or rather the other thread, but the distinctions between them are not being observed) revert to notice board status, and debunker input be ignored.


I bet it bugs you that you are being ignored on your own thread. :D

Don't worry, I'll be sure to point out the inconsistancies in your logic.

[Bonehead9]

ICU: Thanks bonehead for at least making an attempt to answer questions that most debunkers of chemtrails won’t even touch. It is truly an honour having all the experts in one forum.


Quote:
Ever wonder why all the recent interest in water vapour?

Bonehead1 wrote:
uh, because that is what contrails are made of?


ICU: Not according to grida, but I’m guessing you mean that in proportion contrails are mostly water vapour…….right? I can dig up all kinds of contrail info on scirrus for you if you’d like. Contrails are not simply made of water vapour….but you knew that.


Well that is true, there are soot particles (which BTW, provide the nuclei for the ice formation), traces of unburned fuel and of course the gasses: CO2, NOx and traces of SOx. I don't really count the gasses as part of a contrail, because they don't really condense.

[halva]

Annan urges Kyoto ratification
Tuesday 23 March 2004
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan marked the 10th anniversary of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change this week by praising the efforts of nations that have ratified the Kyoto Protocol, and calling for the remaining nations to get on board with the global warming effort.

The Secretary General said; “The Protocol’s lack of entry into force remains a major hurdle to effective global action. I call again on those countries that have not yet ratified the Protocol to do so, and show that they are truly committed to shouldering their global responsibilities.”

“The international community should take pride in what it has done thus far to respond to this challenge. But only if these efforts are truly re-energized will we place our societies on more secure footing, and avert the calamities that the world’s best science tells us lie ahead if we continue on our present course,” he added.

Over one hundred governments have so far ratified the Protocol, although the programme is awaiting the co-operation of Russia before it is able to fully enter into international law.

Friends of the Earth Director Tony Juniper commented; "Those rogue states which have yet to ratify must now join this international effort. And Russian President Vladimir Putin should lead the way."

[halva]

Chirac presses Putin to ratify Kyoto

PARIS (AFP) Sep 29, 2003
French President Jacques Chirac Monday sent a message to his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin urging him to ratify the Kyoto protocol on global warming.
"(Ratificiation) would indicate Russia's determination to assume all the responsibilities of a great modern country for future generations," Chirac said in the letter, given to Putin by French environment minister Roselyne Bachelot at international conference on climate change in Moscow.

In a blow to supporters of the Kyoto treaty, Putin earlier Monday told the conference that Russia had yet to decide whether it will ratify the landmark environmental pact, which needs Moscow's approval to come into force.

"The Russian government is meticulously examining this question and is studying all of the difficult problems associated with it," Putin said as he opened a five-day conference.

Chirac said "Russia must ratify the protocol for it now to come into force. I therefore want to tell you how much importance France attaches to it."

He said that public opinion would see Russia's ratification as "enhanced legitimacy" for a partnership between Russia and the European Union.

"I see here an essential element for the establishment of the common economic zone that we have decided to create in Saint Petersburg" during and EU-Russia summit in the western Russian city in late May-early-June.

[letxa2000]

: It has been my suggestion for some time now that this thread (or rather the other thread, but the distinctions between them are not being observed) revert to notice board status, and debunker input be ignored.

I guess that's not surprising. You have no valid response to the questions and statements made by some of us, so the best approach available to you is to ignore us and act like we--and the questions about chemtrails--don't exist. So you go on posting message after message about topics that have no direct relation to "chemtrails". I'm sure you'll understand that many of us are not keen on your "suggestion" and will continue to demand answers to the questions you have been avoiding. I'm sure you'll also understand that since you're the only one that seems to have accepted your suggestion of reverting the thread to "notice board status" that the rest of us find your constant copy/paste of irrelevant articles to be spamming.

[halva]

13, Apr 2004
Putin's adviser wants Russia to bury Kyoto Protocol

Moscow, Russia – WWF said arguments in recommendations up for discussion by the Russian government used by President Putin’s economic adviser exaggerated the economic costs of the Kyoto protocol for Russia.

According to WWF, Russian economic adviser Andrei Illarionov has been caught lying to President Putin on a range of issues relating to the Kyoto Protocol. The global conservation organization believes that in a report sent to President Putin on 16 March 2004, Illarionov advised President Putin to reject the Kyoto agreement, based on false information.

"It is clear that Mr. Illarionov is lying to try to sway President Putin to reject the Kyoto Protocol," said Alexey Kokorin, head of WWF-Russia’s Climate Change Programme. "This false information campaign must be exposed so that the President can assess the benefits for Russia of ratifying the Protocol, and make a fair evaluation of Russian ratification."

WWF challenges Illarionov’s allegations in his report to President Putin and outlines the facts below:

LIE #1: Mr Illarionov states that Russia will soon exceed its emissions limits set through the Kyoto Protocol, and will then have to introduce costly measures for emission reductions based on his reasoning that GDP growth must be matched by twice as much growth of greenhouse gas emissions.

TRUTH: Mr Illarionov's analysis is based on cases from developing countries where the level of industrialisation is low and population growth is high. This is incomparable to Russia, where the population is stable.

Mr Illarionov has shied away from comparing Russia to similar countries, like those in Central and Eastern Europe. Contrary to Illarionov's view, studies have shown that Russia cannot exceed the 1990 level before 2012. The most likely scenario is that Russia will double its GDP from 2002 to 2012 and greenhouse gas emissions will be at 10-15% below the level of 1990. But even the maximum scenario of 7.5% GDP growth per year still sees Russia's emissions below 1990 levels in 2008 to 2012 in average (NOTE: studies conducted by the Russian Ministry of Economy, the Russian Institute of Energy of Russian Academy of Science, the Russian Institute of Global Climate and Ecology - the body responsible for greenhouse gas inventory, the Imperial College of London, the Oxford Institute of Energy have all published studies in Russian from 2003-2004 which prove this).

As long as Russian CO2 emissions stay below those of 1990, Russia can sell or save them for use in the future. This will determine the length of time that Russia would be able to earn from selling emission permits to other industrialised countries under the Kyoto Protocol’s emissions trading system.

LIE #2: Mr Illarionov states that climate change is not a problem at all, and presents climate change science research as a fringe occupation of a few questionable scientists.

TRUTH: The findings of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which bring together the peer-reviewed work of over 2,500 scientists world wide have found that the majority of warming over the last fifty years is due to human influence. Majority of scientists around the world have completed numerous studies documenting the facts of climate change and its impacts.

LIE#3: Mr Illarionov claims it will be very difficult for Russia to withdraw from the Kyoto Protocol after its first commitment period ends in 2012. He claims that if a country participates in the first commitment period of the agreement it is in it forever.

TRUTH: Although WWF hopes that all Parties in the first commitment period - including the United States and Australia - will participate in the next commitment period, participation in the first commitment period of the Kyoto Protocol does not oblige parties to participate in the second commitment phase. Negotiations have not even begun for this next period.

LIE#4: Mr Illarionov calims that the EU insists on Russia's emissions reduction by 50% to 60% by 2050.

TRUTH: On 20 February 2004, EU emissary Arthur Runge-Metzger said in Moscow that he could see emissions reduction by 50% to 60% by 2050 as an EU goal in the future. There is no pressure whatsoever from the EU on Russia's emissions reductions.

Mr Illarionov is famous for having announced Russian withdrawal from the Kyoto Protocol many times without any factual basis. Mr. Illarionov's made such as announcement during the last Conference of the Parties to the Kyoto Protocol in Milan, Italy in December 2003.

As the Russian government finalizes its recommendation on the issue of Russian ratification of the Protocol, Mr. Illarionov is actively organizing anti-Kyoto hearings to spread false information. Mr Illarionov is expected to discuss the matter of the Protocol in a hearing on 15 April 2004.

The Kyoto Protocol will become international law once the Russian Parliament ratifies the Protocol. The Russian government's recommendation is expected to be sent shortly to President Putin, who must give his approval before the recommendation can proceed to the Russian Parliament's Lower House, the Duma.

For further information:
Alexey Kokorin
WWF Russia Climate Change Programme
Mobile: +7 916 567 26 65
E-mail: akokorin@wwf.ru

[Bonehead9]

Halva, rather than cut and paste, lets have an actual discussion about the issues of glabal warming.

As I see it there are three main points of discussion:

Is there a measurable, anthropogenic component to global climate change? If so, what is it’s percentage compared to “normal” global temperature shifts?

What is the annual, global amount of CO2 produced by anthropogenic sources compared to non-anthropogenic sources?

To what degree do changes in the amount of CO2 produced by anthropogenic sources impact temperature trends that have existed for the past 100, 1,000, and 10,000 years?



Do poorer nations have a greater “right” to produce CO2 than richer nations?

At what point in the development of the industrial capacity of a poor nation do they cross the line and need to scale back their economic output?

Do the Koyto protocols address the “triple bottom lines?” That is does it address social, economic as well as environmental impacts?


So many questions. Too bad Halva is too chicken sh*t to even begin to discuss them. All he wants to do is post C&P.

[Bonehead9]

13, Apr 2004
Putin's adviser wants Russia to bury Kyoto Protocol

Moscow, Russia – WWF said arguments in recommendations up for discussion by the Russian government used by President Putin’s economic adviser exaggerated the economic costs of the Kyoto protocol for Russia.

According to WWF, Russian economic adviser Andrei Illarionov has been caught lying to President Putin on a range of issues relating to the Kyoto Protocol. The global conservation organization believes that in a report sent to President Putin on 16 March 2004, Illarionov advised President Putin to reject the Kyoto agreement, based on false information.

"It is clear that Mr. Illarionov is lying to try to sway President Putin to reject the Kyoto Protocol," said Alexey Kokorin, head of WWF-Russia’s Climate Change Programme. "This false information campaign must be exposed so that the President can assess the benefits for Russia of ratifying the Protocol, and make a fair evaluation of Russian ratification."

WWF challenges Illarionov’s allegations in his report to President Putin and outlines the facts below:

LIE #1: Mr Illarionov states that Russia will soon exceed its emissions limits set through the Kyoto Protocol, and will then have to introduce costly measures for emission reductions based on his reasoning that GDP growth must be matched by twice as much growth of greenhouse gas emissions.

TRUTH: Mr Illarionov's analysis is based on cases from developing countries where the level of industrialisation is low and population growth is high. This is incomparable to Russia, where the population is stable.


The problem is, Russia’s industrial base is all soviet era garbage. Russia is a third world country when it comes to industrial output.


Mr Illarionov has shied away from comparing Russia to similar countries, like those in Central and Eastern Europe. Contrary to Illarionov's view, studies have shown that Russia cannot exceed the 1990 level before 2012. The most likely scenario is that Russia will double its GDP from 2002 to 2012 and greenhouse gas emissions will be at 10-15% below the level of 1990. But even the maximum scenario of 7.5% GDP growth per year still sees Russia's emissions below 1990 levels in 2008 to 2012 in average (NOTE: studies conducted by the Russian Ministry of Economy, the Russian Institute of Energy of Russian Academy of Science, the Russian Institute of Global Climate and Ecology - the body responsible for greenhouse gas inventory, the Imperial College of London, the Oxford Institute of Energy have all published studies in Russian from 2003-2004 which prove this).

This assumes that Russia’s greenhouse gas emissions are a direct refection of it GNP. Furthermore, Russian industries, like those of Eastern Europe are woefully inefficient.


As long as Russian CO2 emissions stay below those of 1990, Russia can sell or save them for use in the future. This will determine the length of time that Russia would be able to earn from selling emission permits to other industrialised countries under the Kyoto Protocol’s emissions trading system.

So you are saying that Russia should keep running its inefficient, communist era industries the way they have been run for the past 50 years?


LIE #2: Mr Illarionov states that climate change is not a problem at all, and presents climate change science research as a fringe occupation of a few questionable scientists.

TRUTH: The findings of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which bring together the peer-reviewed work of over 2,500 scientists world wide have found that the majority of warming over the last fifty years is due to human influence. Majority of scientists around the world have completed numerous studies documenting the facts of climate change and its impacts.


The real truth is that the issue is still fraught with controversy and debate.


LIE#3: Mr Illarionov claims it will be very difficult for Russia to withdraw from the Kyoto Protocol after its first commitment period ends in 2012. He claims that if a country participates in the first commitment period of the agreement it is in it forever.

TRUTH: Although WWF hopes that all Parties in the first commitment period - including the United States and Australia - will participate in the next commitment period, participation in the first commitment period of the Kyoto Protocol does not oblige parties to participate in the second commitment phase. Negotiations have not even begun for this next period.

LIE#4: Mr Illarionov calims that the EU insists on Russia's emissions reduction by 50% to 60% by 2050.

TRUTH: On 20 February 2004, EU emissary Arthur Runge-Metzger said in Moscow that he could see emissions reduction by 50% to 60% by 2050 as an EU goal in the future. There is no pressure whatsoever from the EU on Russia's emissions reductions.


Splitting hairs here, aren’t we Halva?

[lynn george]

ICU: Thanks bonehead for at least making an attempt to answer questions that most debunkers of chemtrails won’t even touch. It is truly an honour having all the experts in one forum.


Quote:
Ever wonder why all the recent interest in water vapour?

Bonehead1 wrote:
uh, because that is what contrails are made of?


ICU: Not according to grida, but I’m guessing you mean that in proportion contrails are mostly water vapour…….right? I can dig up all kinds of contrail info on scirrus for you if you’d like. Contrails are not simply made of water vapour….but you knew that.


Bonehead1 wrote:
Well if they are classified, I certainly wouldn’t know about them.

ICU: That is the same problem I’m having when accessing information regarding high altitude heavies leaving unusual persistent contrails. It seems some of the information is classified, go figure.

You still maintain that high altitude heavies have never released anything out the back except exhaust even though you probably agree that classified projects exist…..is that right?


Bonehead1 wrote:
According to the various google searches, I have tried, there is not much interest in aluminum oxide in the atmosphere. Why do you assume that there is?

ICU: No assumption here bonehead1. I’ve read the publications about nanoscale powdered aluminum being used as nuclei in precipitation. Maybe try abusing a different search engine because you’re missing out on some great information. Start with Colostate university.

You still maintain that high altitude heavies have never released anything out the back except exhaust even though you haven’t really researched the possibilities that aluminum can be used as a nuclei…..is that right?


Quote:
Has Aluminum ever been suspended in a slurry and released from an aircraft...... other than chaff?

Bonehead1 wrote:
Don’t know, Why do you think that it has?
Is there a point to all of these questions?


ICU: You really don’t come across as a bonehead at all. You seem reasonably intelligent. These are questions that aren’t easy to answer, even for you.
The point to the questions is simple. Some individuals continue to say that a high altitude heavy has never released anything but exhaust yet none of these individuals have come forward to show they have researched the claims. The Q’s have only been there a few days so maybe we’ll find time to reveal the answers together.

These are just some of the questions that even Jay won’t touch because he’ll reveal all that he doesn’t know about high altitude releases.

Let’s start slowly.

Is it possible for Hughes to design an engine so a particulate can be released from it as described in the Welsbach patent and Stanford’s geoengineering publications?

The answer is….. Yes.

Are there currently any past or ongoing classified "atmospheric projects or programs" being conducted by NASA/UNEP/EDU./MIL./DARPA/DOE or other type GOV. body?

What research has been performed using Aluminum Oxide in relation to atmospheric sciences?
What were the results?
Who has performed this research and where are they employed now?
What value of Al is normal in our precipitation and what values are we currently seeing?
Is there a greater interest in the effects of Aluminum on plant material and forage crops since 1997?
What research was performed pre.... and past 1997?
Has Aluminum ever been suspended in a slurry and released from an aircraft...... other than chaff?

What were average atmospheric particulate values pre 1997 and what are they now?
What changes have occurred to visibility parameters for aircraft in recent years, who initiated the changes and why?

What research has been done to utilize the thermodynamic properties of a gas turbine engine and release particles through it as indicated in the Welsbach Patent?
Who did the research and what were the results?
Has the theory of particulate release through a gas turbine engine ever been applied, ......by who .....and what were the results?

Has a KC-135 (or similar acft) ever been involved in experiments in atmospheric sciences?
What were the experiments?
Does the MAS System fit through the cargo door of a KC-135?
Where are KC-135's petro 011 and 012 based and what role do they perform?
Are decommissioned commercial aircraft ever purchased by GOV. departments and used for atmospheric research?
Do persistent contrails show up on ATC radar and what are the reporting timelines and procedures for ATCer's when they do?
Is this public information and where can one see the data?

What research has been performed using Barium in relation to atmospheric sciences or communications?
Who did the experiments and what were the results?

Are Jepperson flight charts or similar aircraft navigation charts available to the general public to determine jet-airways?

Is it possible for the public to access upper sounding information to determine if persistent contrails they are seeing can be supported by the atmospheric conditions in which the contrails persist?


Very reasonable questions ICU812,

But of course anytime anyone questions bunkies about geoengineering they run as fast as they can for cover. It's obvious to so many now that geoengineering "experiments" are going on wide spread, and perhaps fair to say that they are so common, it appears by the tens of thousands of daily reports, that The Sky Shield looks like it is going to be forced on The Citizens in secret . It was over 80 deg. here today and though the ChemPlanes came out for about four hours and put down massive trailing most of it blew away on out to the east and the sun was very very intense.

I visited a website for Stanford University when I was researching connections to the paper put out by Jay Michaelson/Stanford Law regarding the "Climate Change Manhatten Project" and I found on their site they have a section dealing with geoenginnering and purposful climate change. You are probably already familiar with the paper and possibly with the Universitys role in geoengineering. If not a short Google search can bring up much. Also Exxon/Mobil's links and huge donations to Stanford regarding geoengineering can be found among others. In fact dozens of links regarding groups engaged in climate modification efforts have been posted over and over and over and all the bunkies do is run for cover. Chemtrails are quite real. Geoengineering is quite real. Bunkies are in serious denial.

SmT

[halva]

Arianna Huffington has just written an article called 'The Pentagon Sounds the Alarm on Global Warming'. At the end of it she says: 'The Democratic nominee needs to remind the White House — and the American people: It’s not nice to fool with Mother Nature.'

There would be nothing wrong with a Democratic Party candidate doing that, but it should not be ignored that there are by now very large numbers of Americans who realise that 'fooling with Mother Nature' is something currently proceeding on a gigantic, planetary, scale, with the blessings of not only of the Bush regime but also of many opponents of Bush who are genuinely concerned about global climate change and are supporters of 'geoengineering'.

To Americans like this, Arianna's remarks about fooling with Mother Nature may seem to be underrating their intelligence, or knowledge.

The geoengineering issue has now been addressed by the activists of ATTAC-Hellas in Greece, which is Arianna Huffington's native land also:

See
http://www.attac-hellas.org/seminars/geoengineering/programmeenglish.htm

Further information at:
http://www.spectrezine.org/global/Hall.htm

The genuinely grave situation of the planet should not become an excuse for manipulative danger-mongering and for acceptance of classification of climatic change as a 'national security' question, if this is going to mean a continuation of the dishonesty and lack of transparency with which the Pentagon has so far operated on this question, and characteristically operates on all questions.

It is time for there to be exposure, and honest public debate, about what is ALREADY being done by the proponents of geoengineering 'solutions'.

[halva]

WARNING!

THEY ARE SPRAYING FOR A MILITARY TEST TODAY!!

DID THEY ASK YOU IF YOU WANTED TO BE A PART OF A MILITARY TEST?!!



The information above was found today on http://www.wunderground.com/US/CA/Santa_Cruz.html. It was removed from the website 20 minutes after we discovered the information. We were able to capture it in time and have posted it on Chemtrails911.com.

What is really going on in our skies??!! This is ridiculous!! We need to reclaim our skies!

We did not consent to breathe this in! Were we asked to be a part of this Military test?! Where's the oversight as to what is really being sprayed?! This is involuntary experimentation without concern for the health of the public! The whole region is being sprayed with who knows what and they aren't accountable to anyone it seems!

We the people have the right to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. We are not lab rats to be experimented on without consent!! We have the right to breathe freely without worry of breathing in "particles" from an experiment by our very own Military!!

Please don't just sit there and take it!! Use the contact information on this page to call in and complain!!

Wake Up Look Up Speak Out!
Thanks,
Inca

For more information please visit:
www.chemtrails911.com

EDUCATE- ACTIVATE!

[halva]

SUB-MICRON PARTICULATES ISOLATED
Clifford E Carnicom
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Apr 15 2004

A method has been developed to isolate and record the existence of certain sub-micron particulates that appear to be resident within the atmosphere. The evidence from this research continues to support the claim of high levels of extremely fine metallic salts within the atmosphere as a consequence of the aerosol operations. The method developed incorporates a combination of ionization collection, electrolysis for separation, and significant advances in microscopy that have been made with relatively modest means.

http://www.carnicom.com/micro3.htm

[letxa2000]

Halva:A method has been developed...

A method which is not sufficiently explained in the article.


.. to isolate and record the existence of certain sub-micron particulates that appear to be resident within the atmosphere.

I.e., they appear to be within the atmosphere. Of course, they could be from anywhere including the dog down the street that has a sinus infection or the car down the street with a bad exhaust system not to mention any industrial plants upwind of the observation point.


The evidence from this research continues to support the claim of high levels of extremely fine metallic salts within the atmosphere as a consequence of the aerosol operations.

No evidence is presented nor is any logical or scientific link made between what has supposedly been collected by this "method" and what may or may not come from aerosol operations that may or may not exist. The materials supposedly collected are just automatically linked to aerosol operations. No explanation for this logical leap of faith.


The method developed incorporates a combination of ionization collection, electrolysis for separation, and significant advances in microscopy that have been made with relatively modest means.

In other words, it appears to be the same type of processes that Carnicom and others have used in the past.

In short, nothing to see here, move along. :)

PS--At least this time your copy/paste was shorter than usual! Two thumbs up!

[halva]

Julian Penrod
4 Fairfield Avenue
West Caldwell, New Jersey 07006
(973) 220-1601
julianpenrod@comcast.net
November 1, 2002

To all:
The letter to the editor, placed in the forum, produced a great deal of response. Much of it from the "debunkers", those who insist that chemtrail tracks in the sky definitively and uncontrovertibly are nothing more than water vapor normally expelled from jet engines. The response to reactions to the letter to the editor also received a great many replies. Many, also, from the "debunkers". Tellingly, and, perhaps, unsurprisingly, for their past actions, these responses tread much the same ground, engaging in unfounded denials, casual misrepresentations and undeserved calumny. Generally, little more than schoolyard bullying.
PacerLJ35, one of the "debunkers" to whom I referred, was one who responded; to approach the form of his "rejoinders" is to see the general pattern of - frankly - dissembly which the "debunkers", in general, employ to try to control opinion.
He begins by referring to the response to posts by "debunkers" against the letter to the editor by saying "what a long, drawn out diatribe THAT was.
"All it amounted to was alot [sic] of effort given to whining about people who wish to question and debate your point of views [sic]."
He then proceeds to opine: "Julian, it can only be surmised that your idea of freedom of speech is one where you can say anything you like [sic] others are prohibited from challenging your assertations [sic]."
He then adds, pointlessly: "True freedom I see."
Among other things, the complaint about length appears particularly questionable. Since when does the value of something depend only on how little time and effort you give to it? This evidenced attitude is fully in keeping with someone who truly wishes to deceive others by counselling them to do the least possible with respect to an issue, and that includes looking at chemtrails and, because it involves work to look into then, simply believing what lies you are told about them! Any attempt to refute this point will have to, first, assert that PacerLJ35's opening remarks do not excoriate effort and work!
PacerLJ35 then goes on to characterize my response post as "whining about people who wish to question and debate" the contention that chemtrails are not normal. It is eminently open to question just what exactly constituted "whining"! To whine is to complain bleatingly about a presumed infraction of one's rights. I demonstrated the palpable tenuousness of their assertions.
And, if taking issue with another's statements is "whining", how do the "debunkers" describe their often vituperation-laden missives to the chemtrail opponents?
More than anything else, though, the nature of what the "debunkers" call "principle" can be seen in PacerLJ35's excoriation on "freedom of speech". He "defines" my supposed "idea of freedom of speech" as being a case where only one side, mine, can say something, and any assertions to the contrary are not allowed. At no point did I say anything like that, either! I showed up the factual errors and lapses in reason in "debunkers'" statements. Since when is proving the falsity in another's statements fighting against "freedom of speech"?
To be sure, countering lies and falsehoods can be represented as working at delimiting the scope of discourse. To try to prevent others from engaging in dishonorable dispersal of fraud can be said to be thwarting "completely unencumbered speech". But since when is pursuing the honorable an ignoble goal? Is it a violation of freedom of speech to oppose those who say that "two plus two equals five"; or to condemn someone who coaxes a person to cross a bridge that's about to collapse; or to blow the whistle on a CEO who fraudulently inflates the price of his stock? To do so certainly does act to control the flow of doggerel, but is it a heinous pursuit?
In fact, accusing the righteous and their pursuit of the honorable way of acting - as opposed to the plethora of dishonorable ways! - as "fighting against freedom" is a commonplace among the truly disingenuous. With no way to legitimately endorse their interests, they, instead, take issue with the practice of opposing them. And that is to accuse such opposition as "violating personal freedom"!
But, in fact, the completely uncontrolled engagement in activity purely on the basis of personal whim, unmediated by thought of the effect on others, which those who promote the indecent reliably term "freedom", is, in reality, "license"! And those who seek to thwart the promoting of honor by defining "freedom" to be utter lack of responsibility for your actions, are behaving "licentiously"! To seek to have people agree that "two plus two equals four" may be depicted as seeking to "stifle freedom", but it does not necessarily represent the "assault on human liberty" that the unrighteous would seek to portray it as!
No more than calling a chemtrail a contrail makes it a contrail!
And, in opposing the willful and, apparently, foul-spirited proclivity in so many to dismiss chemtrails as a danger to the population, the chemtrail opponents are not trying to "destroy freedom"!
If that were the case, how do the chemtrail "debunkers" portray their attempting to sway opponents to their "way of thinking"?
And that is precisely what they are doing!
They refer to it as “freedom of speech”, but “freedom” does not so easily apply to deliberate deception or fraud - or they would not be a crime! - and those genuinely acting out of honorable intent do not engage in the dismissive and truculent behavior so characteristic of the “debunkers”. Obvious by its absence in PacerLJ35’s reply to the latest posting on Chemtrails Central was abusive and contemptuous speech. But that was because a prominent point was made of that attitude, both in the letter to the editor, and the post about the replies to the letter.
But condemnatory speech was not missing in PacerLJ35’s reply to the latest post, however. The reference to chemtrail complainants “opposing” the “freedom of speech” that the “debunkers” seem to want to equate lying to the people about chemtrails with, is old hat in “debunker” letters and posts, by now. Depicting chemtrail opponents as spoiled, self-centered dictator wannabe’s is yet another of their evidently calculated misrepresentation of the truth!
So carelessly and casually does PacerLJ35 pass off the comment: “Look, if you’re going to type something charging that the government or any other institution is spraying people with high-altitude aircraft, you’ve got to understand that there are people out there that don’t agree with your theories. Cry all you want, but that’s the way it is.”
Why, all of a sudden, does PacerLJ35 refer to people “not agreeing with my theories”? If you know - as surely as the “debunkers” say they do! - that high-flying spraying is not occurring, it is not a matter of simply “not agreeing”! Agreement, generally, is a factor of undecided circumstances, or matters where two or more alternatives can be considered of equal value or quality! The “debunkers” insist that they have complete and incontrovertible proof that chemtrails are merely normal contrails! In that case, it is not a matter of “not agreeing”; it is a matter of having the absolute proof! Why is PacerLJ35 suddenly running to the presumed cover of the presumed “equality of opinion” dodge, also so often trundled by the insincere and deceitful?
And where, either in the letter to the editor or the reply post to the letter’s responses, did I “cry” about others having differing opinions? I described the foul-mannered and spiteful actions, on the part of the “debunkers”, which cannot, legitimately, be described any other way! Calling names. Dismissing worried people’s genuine concerns. Making fun of people asking questions about a subject the “debunkers” evidently want swept safely under the rug! To call a rude, boorish, ill-mannered, apparently unprincipled individual rude, boorish, ill-mannered and apparently unprincipled is not crying, nor is it name calling. It is using unpleasant terms to describe an unpleasant situation! To fail to describe an ugly circumstance using ugly words may comport with the evidently self-serving “definition” of “politeness” that the “debunkers” embrace, but it is not necessarily honorable in the least!
Playing deceitfully and insincerely with words and sentiments is an apparent stock in trade of the "debunkers" - they demonstrate it readily! - and is what can be expected in any protracted repartee with them.
Which is what makes their "invitation" to "debate" patently ludicrous.
For they, evidently, do not intend even to engage in legitimate discourse, but merely a verbal abomination of deliberately protracted verbiage, posing as "discussion! The "debate" that "debunkers" wish to engage in, apparently - and which they condemn chemtrail opponents for refusing to join! - is nothing more, evidently, than a calculated waste of time; a deliberate, endless banter, back and forth, to avoid something substantive being done! And, to refuse to engage in such an apparent act of subterfuge, and failing to improve worsening conditions because of it, is not a flaw or a failing!
Demonstrative, too, of the apparent deceit of the “debunkers”, is the “explanation” of PacerLJ35’s having the term “Government Shill” applied to his i.d., and Traveler’s referring to themselves as “Sheeple”. “That’s an automatic function of posting” on the message board, PacerLJ35 insists. “It’s a bit like how you call yourself ‘New Member’”. “New Member” is a term directly related to the functioning of a computer-based bulletin board! For someone to have an i.d. and posting privileges would define them as a “Member”. To have just started would qualify them as “New”. There is nothing in the automatic operation of a computer-based bulletin board which appends the terms “Government Shill” or “Sheeple” to an individual. Too, I did not call myself “New Member”! That was done by the computer!
The mentioning, in the reply, of PacerLJ35’s previous misspelled denunciation of ethylene dibromide in jet fuel as indicative of questionable intellectual capacity in the “debunker” community” is “countered” by: “So…what are you getting at? There is NOTHING, except rumors posted on chemtrail websites, linking EDB to jet fuel. Your quote above is at best a diversionary tactic, because you didn’t even attempt to prove me wrong, Julian (or whatever your name is)…show me proof of EBD, and maybe we’ll have a real debate.”
Since the degree of PacerLJ35’s evident questionable intellectual depth seems to preclude their even being aware that I was referring to their misspelling, I will state that in so many terms. I was referring to the misspelling.
Any failure to produce significant documentation on ethylene dibromide in jet fuel is not definitively interpretable as only the non-existence of the substance in fuel, only that the government is apparently very perspicacious in maintaining the material they provide for public dispersal! PacerLJ35, however, demonstrates the disinterest in legitimate discourse in the challenge that, as soon as proof of ethylene dibromide is provided, “maybe we’ll have a real debate”. Once proof is provided, all uncertainty is swept aside! Debate is completely useless, since the matter will have been decided! But wasting time seems part of the “debunkers’” aim!
And, for all that they claim themselves interested in debate, why, for that matter, does PacerLJ35 say “maybe we’ll have a real debate”?
In the reply post to the responses, I mentioned PacerLJ35’s obsession with my description of the shapes formed by chemtrails. The letter to the editor mentions “X’s”, “H’s” and “parallel lines”. In his response to the original letter, PacerLJ35 took issue with these descriptions, as if I was suggesting that it is unusual, if not patently impossible, that normal jet paths could take those forms, and that that alone supposedly proves that chemtrails are strange, and, therefore, a government plot. The reference to the different shapes that chemtrails could take was intended to accompany photographs of different chemtrails shapes, that I was including with the letters that I sent to the newspapers! The pictures were not included in the letter to the editor posted on Chemtrail Central because that venue does not seem geared for hypertext or the uploading of images from a picture host site. But, even if it did, we don’t have a picture hosting site to use to maintain picture for uploading every time someone accesses the letter to the editor. I even explained in the first letter and in the reply post that I had included pictures in the letters to the newspapers, but did not have available resources to provide pictures on the Chemtrail Central site. PacerLJ35 chides me by saying, “Now, supposedly, these X’s, Y’s, H’s, parallel lines, etc [sic] were supposed [sic] to show flight paths that are abnormal, but you seem to shoot yourself in the foot by saying that the patterns mean nothing. If they don’t mean anything, why mention it [sic]?”
I will explain again, for the sake of PaceLJ35 and those with similar demonstrated inability to look beyond their contempt to see what is being said. The reference to “X’s”, “parallel lines” and other shapes was meant to accompany pictures that were included in the letters sent to the newspapers, so that those reading the letter to the editor could see that I was referring to something they likely see every day or so, but I did not have available resources to display those pictures on Chemterail Central. I included the word-for-word recitation of the letter for accuracy’s sake! But I did not mean to imply directly through the reference to the shapes that there was necessarily anything suspicious or sinister to be seen in them! If PacerLJ35 still has difficulty seeing this, I invite anyone who knows them to explain it to them.
Where, following the letter to the editor, PacerLJ35 took up the issue of the oily appearance of chemtrail induced cirrus clouds, he insisted that it is “caused by refraction”. I pointed out that oil also causes refraction, so that he does not disprove the abnormal nature of chemtrail clouds by saying that it is caused by refraction! When I mentioned that in the response, he shot back with: “Refraction is refraction. It doesn’t matter if light is being refracted through oil, water or a glass prism, it’s still the same thing. There is no such thing as an “oily refraction”…just refraction. It’s a physical phenomenon of a material splitting light into the various components [sic].”
But I never said “oily refraction”. I merely said that blaming refraction for the appearance of chemtrail clouds does not rule out their being composed of an abnormal material! Indeed, it was PacerLJ35, who was trying to suggest that there is only one kind of refraction. His reference, in the earlier “rebuttal” to refraction through water droplets causing rainbows and such was evidently intended to convince the unwary that there is only a “water refraction”, and that the appearance of a rainbow in a chemtrail cloud was “proof” that it consisted only of water droplets!
When I mention the fact that, when chemtrails are present in the sky, in general, no cumulus clouds form, PacerLJ35’s response is: “OK [sic] Julian, where’s your documentation? And as I attempted to state before, there’s nothing that would link your perceived coincidence [sic] together. And I’m pretty sure I know what the response to this will be…’Ha! The [sic] debunker slime demands documentation, when it’s obvious that I know what I see! What is this…documentation…they speak of?”
As I said, I have a significant amount of photographic material about chemtrails, their formation and progressive coalescing into cloud sheets, from at least the northern New Jersey area. We do not have a picture host site url to use to reference to in posts on Chemtrail Central. We can try to upload an amount of material to the Images part of the site, but that may have little direct reference to material on the Forum boards. But, in the pictures of chemtrails, there are no signs of cumulus clouds being present after large numbers of chemtrails have been laid. There are a few pictures of chemtrails being produced in skies that already have cumulus clouds, but, in each case, it’s no more than one or two. And those instances came after my latest letters to the editor, mentioning chemtrails and cumulus clouds, as if it’s trying to be “proved” to me that they do co-exist!
It is unsurprising that, among their tactics to try to downplay the evident reality of chemtrails, the “debunkers” would also try to depict them as illusory, suggesting aspects associated with them to be merely “coincidences”. The photographs I have would demonstrate the fact that cumulus clouds do not form after chemtrails are sprayed. To be sure, this would constitute a coincidence, but, then, sodium hydroxide and hydrochloric acid yielding salt and water, when they combine also, strictly speaking, is a coincidence! One event is coincident with another! Calling something a coincidence does not mean there is not a connection! In fact, a string of coincidences in the same type of situation indicates a clear-cut connection! Denouncing a pattern of similar events, under similar conditions as only a “coincidence” is an apparent attempt at dismissing the factual as the merely perceived! And that is fraud!
PacerLJ35’s demand for something that would “link the perceived coincidence together” is wrong both philosophically and grammatically. A pattern of guaranteed events, under similar circumstances, is already linked together! When chemtrails predominated in the sky, cumulus clouds did not form! The “coincidence” PacerLJ35 refers to is the linkage of these two events! They may be referring to the “explanation” for why chemtrails covering the sky prevents the formation of cumulus clouds. Then they should say so. But I gave that in the letter to the editor, when I described the likely use of chemtrails, in northern New Jersey, to “gently mix” air masses, to prevent the more chaotic type of mixing that often goes hand-in-hand with rainstorms. And you do not link a single object. You can link coincidences, but not a single coincidence! And, for that matter, there is no such thing as a single coincidental occurrence! It is the occurrence of the same pattern of events time after time that forms what would be referred to as a “coincidence”. But, by that time, the repetition of the same pattern, time after time, indicates that there is something happening. To even refer to my observation as a “coincidence”, PacerLJ35 admits that it occurs over and over again, and thereby lends credence to it!
And I have not used a term like “debunker slime”. I have referred to them as bullies when they acted bullyingly. I indicated deceitful characteristics and behaviors when they engaged in those kinds of activities! I indicated fraudulent acts, such as trying to dismiss a string of related events as “merely a coincidence”, as fraud, because that is what it is!
PacerLJ35’s excoriation on my description of wind formation from air masses - as part of his overall insistence that he was right in saying that pressure, not pressure differences, causes wind - is equally misleading. I pointed out that air layers - bodies of air lying over another - do not form winds. Wind, in general, is formed by an air mass at one pressure, essentially pushing another air mass, at a lower pressure, out of the way. In fact, what is happening is that the more pressurized air is entering the lower pressure area and mixing with the air there. An air mass overlying another, however, generally does not form sustained winds, at least, not at the ground.
PacerLJ35’s intent, during his subsequent response, seems the pointless aim of “justifying” his assertion that pressure, not pressure difference between one spot and another, is the real cause of wind. He accuses me of, among other things, engaging in a “nice play on words”. “Air layers CAN contribute to forming pressure gradients, which can create shear layers, gust fronts, etc. So although air masses (better term) can contribute to forming wind, wind is still the sole function of air pressure.”
“Gusts fronts” are an expression of air moving horizontally across the landscape, which is still the result of the process I described! “Shear layers” - wind moving at different speeds at different altitudes, in one body - are also present in air masses moving along the land, not overlying each other. What has come to be known as “wind shear” is a down draft of air formed during particularly heavy rainstorms - which are associated with one air mass overlying another - but not solely as the result of air pressure difference between the air masses. It is PacerLJ35 who seems to be playing with words to mislead the uninformed!
“Wind is not a function of ‘air pressure’”, I am quoted as saying, “but, rather, a difference in air pressures.”
“Uh”, PacerLJ35 responds cattily, “that makes it a function of air pressure.”
But it is not pressure which creates the movement of air. If one air mass had a pressure of, say, 31.50 inches of mercury - higher than just about any recorded air pressure at sea level - and another has a pressure of 31.51 inches, there would still be little movement of air, from one to the other. No matter how high the ambient pressure was, if the air masses were close in pressure, there would be no wind! If one air mass was at 29.80 inches - very typical and altogether not out of the ordinary - and another was at, say, 29.20 inches, there would be significant movement of air! Even if the pressures are not out of the ordinary at all, differences can still cause wind! It is the pressure difference, not the pressure itself which causes wind!
In order for wind to be a “function of air pressure” would mean that, given the pressure in a given area alone, and not the pressure in any other area, you would be able to calculate how much wind would result. That is what “function of pressure means”! If an air mass is at 29.50 inches, how much wind would form and in what direction? If PacerLJ35's assertion is correct, that should be immediately answerable. But, the air mass could be in contact with another at 29.49 inches - which would form low wind outward - or one at 28.50 inches - which would cause a large flow of air outward - or one at 30.20 inches, which would cause a flow of air into the first air mass! Accepted meteorology does not admit any method of determining the degree of wind formed solely on the basis of the pressure in one spot! And “difference in air pressure” is not the same as “air pressure”!
The “debunkers” can prate all the officially dispersed facts and figures they want, but aren’t any of them familiar with the way things act?
In any event, PacerLJ35 shapes up as little more than a colossal embarrassment to the “debunkers”!
PacerLJ35 then goes on to challenge my reference to the experiment, on the part of the government, whereby white trails of egg whites were formed from planes to, presumably, test radar reception. A point I made was that that had never been revealed to the public, and, if someone said they saw curious trails coming out of government planes, they would likely be laughed at by high-talking “know-it-alls”, calling themselves “debunkers”, who would say that there was no way the government would engage in anything like that!
“The government didn’t say much about it because, for God’s sake, they were releasing egg whites in a very limited test. Who cares? I wouldn’t care, and it would just be another waste of space on the morning newspaper.”
Finding it necessary to reiterate themselves, PacerLJ35 says, “Again, this was a very limited test. The government isn’t flying over the entire nation dumping egg whites on everyone from 35,000 feet!”
The seedy tack of taking The Lord’s name in vain is self-evident in it crudity. And the government didn’t “not say much” about the experiment, it didn’t say anything!
PacerLJ35 is very adamant in describing the egg white experiment as “very limited”.
How do they know?
Even the CNN report didn’t mention the degree to which it was conducted!
Are they privy to some kind of inner channel to military or governmental information denied everyone else?
That would make them a tool of government, working to convince people that what they are seeing isn’t real! Precisely the role such as PacerLJ35 would deny filling!
That would certainly go in line with PacerLJ35’s opining: “Who cares?” The last thing those trying to hurt you want is for you to be interested in what’s going on around you! Where does PacerLJ35 draw the line at what is worthy to be examined and what isn’t? PacerLJ35 and their ilk seemed determined to keep the people disinterested in what is being done to them!
The tendency of the government to proceed apace with their own interests, utterly disinterested in the welfare of the people, is not disputed at all, these days. Operation SHAD - which involved the spraying of ships with contaminants, to “study” germ and chemical warfare operations - and the release of nerve gases such as VX and Sarin, from Alaska to Florida, demonstrates the fact that, not only is the government likely always lying completely about their operations, there seems no level of duplicity so low, in betraying the public, that there is not some example of the government stooping to, in their selfish interests!
They do, however, let slip an important point, in referring to “another waste of space on the morning newspaper”. What is presented as “honest reportage” and “reliable information from the government” seem, in PacerLJ35’s own words, nothing more than fraud! But that includes official denial of the existence of chemtrails!
I pointed out PacerLJ35’s - I will use the word - attempted suggestion that haze forms only below 10,000 feet. He took issue. “Is that what I said?”, he replies, “Let’s go check, shall we. [sic] Here’s what I said: “I have seen a thick haze down low, close to the ground, abruptly clearing up around 8-10,000 feet.
“Where in there did I insist that haze only forms below 10,000 feet? In that particular example, it was around 10,000 feet.”
If there was only one instance PacerLJ35 can refer to where haze broke above 10,000 feet, why even mention it? Chemtrail opponents are talking about reliable, repetitive occurrences, not single events! PacerLJ35’s reference to the absence of haze above 10,000 feet would make sense, in this forum, only if they were speaking about a general phenomenon! Not a one-time event! PacerLJ35 seemed intent on deceiving people by referring to a one-time only event, and giving the impression that it was a general fact!
And that, too, is fraud!
In my discussion of the “debunkers’” place in the matter, I also pointed out that even they admit that what are called chemtrails – which they insist are contrails – spread out over time, and coalesce to form cloud layers, often described as “haze”. This PacerLJ35 pounces on, saying: “I have never said that contrails form haze. Never. Find the quote, Julian. I have admitted that contrails can seed cirrus cloud formations.”
Among other things, I did not say that PacerLJ35 specifically said that chemtrails or contrails form haze. I referred to “debunkers”. PacerLJ35, presumably, is not all the debunkers! PacerLJ35 would be well advised not to display the kind of monomania, or paranoia, that comes with thinking that only they are being referred to, when “debunkers” in general are spoken of. And, in fact, the tendency of the long-lived lines called chemtrails produce the unbroken cirrus cloud decks called “haze” is without dispute, even by the debunkers, so that they have taken to providing numerous references on their web pages to “sources” that assert that contrails, in fact, widen out, and combine with other such trails, to form cirrus haze. One such is the page, www.weatherwise.org/qr/qry/chemtrail.html. linked to from the page www.worldzon.net/international/checkiedeb/, Thomas Schlatter writes that “the longer a contrail persists, the more it spreads”
“It is not unusual”, he adds, “for contrails to spread and merge so that they cover a good portion of the sky with a filmy veil of ice crystals.”
And that “filmy veil” is what is often referred to as “haze”.
If PacerLJ35 wants to play with words and say that they “meant something else” when they talked about “haze”, they can try to get around their statements, but that would only further demonstrate the eminent apparent disingenuousness and untrustworthiness of the “debunkers”! Even they are forced to admit that they accept that contrails form the seeds for cirrus cloud formation. They seem to want to avoid owning up to their own words and assertions by suddenly changing the meaning of the words they used!
This is only one example of the palpable faithlessness and demonstrated insincerity among the "debunkers”. The righteous tend to promote righteous things, and they do it righteously. Where there is not regard for honor, it is eminently questionable not only the character of the actions, but also the decency of what is involved! A large part of their machinations seems the deliberate attempt to engage chemtrail opponents in ceaseless blather, tossing accusations and denunciations, to see what will stick. There was not one relevant point that was raised. But there seems little likelihood that they will ever have anything legitimate to put in their favor.

Julian Penrod

[halva]

Jeanie wrote:

My God Julian***I simply can't understand why you waste sooooo much of your time trying to reason with debunkers !!! As far as I am concerned Chem-trails are NOT open for debate. You don't have to prove anything at all to these distorter's of truth. Use your time and energy informing others. As to whether or not anything can be done to stop this serious contamination of sky and land is another question. We are not living in a time when the little guy can question Uncle Sam about anything he is doing secretly or without explanation.

[halva]

There is a method to be found in debunker discourse, and not only there. It is also to be found in the discourse of US state power, of the United Nations, of the European Union, of all the powerful states of the world and of the corporate power they serve directly or indirectly.

The method is centred on the deliberate instigation of cognitive dissonance, i.e. of the emission of contradictory signals, or of signals contradicting the evidence of the senses.

Discourse of this kind induces division and fragmentation among those who allow it to affect them. They are forced to choose to align themselves with one or the other pole of the contradiction and thus start arguing and fighting with those who opt to go with the other pole.

Debunkers hurl accusations, usually false, and in short behave like relentless enemies. At the same time they evoke the necessity for respect for the rules of democracy, rules which can only come into play where enmity is overcome, or at a minimum, a truce is respected.

This in itself is enough to induce cognitive dissonance in most unsuspecting Americans, who have learnt not to perceive the modalities of class war and also often cannot perceive the objective reality of national antagonisms, equating as they do the national interests of the United States with the interests of humanity as a whole.

[Bonehead9]

SUB-MICRON PARTICULATES ISOLATED
Clifford E Carnicom
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Apr 15 2004

A method has been developed to isolate and record the existence of certain sub-micron particulates that appear to be resident within the atmosphere. The evidence from this research continues to support the claim of high levels of extremely fine metallic salts within the atmosphere as a consequence of the aerosol operations. The method developed incorporates a combination of ionization collection, electrolysis for separation, and significant advances in microscopy that have been made with relatively modest means.

http://www.carnicom.com/micro3.htm


HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA


Halva, you really don't take that seriously, do you?


Hey I know, maybe it's Asbsestos?



Clifford's picture




Anthropholite asbestos

Hey, it is just as likley as Clifford's scenario.

:roll:

[Bonehead9]

Julian Penrod? Halva, don't you realize that Julian is the internet alter ego of a mentally disturbed woman?

Don't you realize that Cliff Carnicom is holed up in his house giving himself a home root canal because he can't afford, or is too paranoid to go to the dentist?

Can't you see that Gaiacomm and Liafraud played you for a fool, and that even those who have tried to help you in the past, like Sorethroat, have abandoned you?

Can't you see the mental illness lurking behind Jim Phelp's posts?

Why do you insist on enabling these people? You are one sick, evil, cruel bastard, Wayne. These people need help, and all you do is support, encourage and feed their dellusions.

[halva]

From: http://www.spectrezine.org/global/Hall.htm

The ‘invisibility’ of geoengineering is perpetuated through official denial. The US Air Force, whose KC-135R and KC-10 tanker planes have become a familiar sight in many different parts of the world as they engage in the daily particulate scattering operations of the ‘sunscreen’ programme, on its official site describes eyewitness accounts of these operations as ‘a hoax that has been around since 1996.’ ‘The Air Force’, it says ‘is not conducting any weather modification experiments or programs and has no plans to do so in the future.’ The ‘hoax’ accusation is energetically echoed by the seemingly large numbers of ‘debunkers’ frequenting chemtrail/geoengineering discussion forums, generating considerable confusion, as well as resentment at their characterisation as ‘chemmies’ (a variant on ‘commies’) those who wish to draw attention to the mysterious lines in the sky.

From: http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=207958

H μυστικότητα όσον αφορά την εφαρμογή της πλανητικής μηχανικής διαιωνίζεται από το κλίμα επίσημης άρνησης. Η αεροπορία των ΗΠΑ, που τα tankers της KC-135R και KC-10 έχουν γίνει πλέον γνωστό θέαμα σε πολλά μέρη του κόσμου καθώς εκτελούν τις καθημερινές τους πτήσεις διασποράς σωματιδιών του προγράμματος «Ηλιακή Ασπίδα», στην επίσημη της ιστοσελίδα περιγράφει τις καταθέσεις αυτοπτών μαρτύρων σαν «μία απάτη που ξεκίνησε το 1996». «Η Αεροπορία των ΗΠΑ,» συνεχίζει, «δεν διεξάγει επιχειρήσεις τροποποίησης του καιρού και δεν σχεδιάζει να το κάνει στο μέλλον.» Η κατηγορία για απάτη επαναλαμβάνεται επίμονα από τους φαινομενικά πολυάριθμους «debunkers» (δύσπιστους) που συχνάζουν στα φόρουμ συζήτησης πλανητικής μηχανικής/chemtrails και προκαλούν αρκετή σύγχυση με το χαρακτηρισμό ως «chemmies» (μιά παραλλαγή των«commies» ή «κομμουνιστών») όλων όσων επιχειρούν να τραβήξουν την προσοχή του κοινού στις μυστηριώδεις γραμμές του ουρανού.

[halva]

GREENPEACE : PRESIDENTE PUTIN, IL PIANETA HA BISOGNO DI KYOTO.L’ITALIA ASCOLTI CIAMPI SULLE FONTI RINNOVABILI
GREENPEACE

Mosca, 29 September 2003 Greenpeace sottolinea come il presidente russo Vladimir Putin abbia perso l’occasione di fare un annuncio storico oggi, nel saluto inaugurale della Conferenza mondiale sui cambiamenti climatici, non parlando della ratifica del Protocollo di Kyoto.
Attivisti dell’associazione hanno srotolato questa mattina a Mosca un enorme striscione, che si θ alzato in cielo per ricordare al presidente russo l’impegno da prendere.
Per Greenpeace, Putin ha avuto piω di 3 anni per analizzare il Protocollo e tutto θ pronto a livello legislativo, con un emendamento approvato a settembre. La Russia puς giocare un ruolo chiave a livello mondiale, ratificando e facendo finalmente entrare in vigore il Protocollo di Kyoto.
L’ultima data utile, a questo punto, per la ratifica russa θ la prossima Conferenza delle Parti del Protocollo che si terrΰ a Milano a dicembre, nella quale si discuterΰ di obiettivi vincolanti per la riduzione di gas che producono l’effetto serra.
“Il black out italiano non dev’essere il pretesto per aumentare la produzione di gas serra. Il presidente della Repubblica Ciampi ha giustamente ricordato come occorra investire di piω in eolico e fotovoltaico. Sono i ministri dell’ambiente e delle attivitΰ produttive di questo governo, purtroppo, ad essere sordi al richiamo che viene dalla piω alta carica dello Stato” ha detto Domitilla Senni, direttore generale di GreenPeace.

[halva]

呼籲中電股東投資未來


去年，中電控股在香港出售電力
- 盈利高達 62.81億元；
- 但排放17,318,000公噸二氧化碳、252,000公噸煤炭及146,788公斤固體化 學廢物；
- 只花了200萬元成立一個可再生能源基金作社區教育用途，佔該公司盈利不足0.03%；

換言之，儘管香港市民環保意識再高，仍無法享用潔淨能源！

最近，有報章指中電控股擬於廣東省投資風力發電廠，預料首期投資額高達25億人民幣，發電量高達30萬千瓦 。根據政府去年發表的顧問研究報告，香港風力資源豐富而且發電成本與燃燒化石燃料相若。再者，可再生能源不 受燃料價格影響，亦不會排放溫室氣體及污染物。究竟，香港市民何時才可享用潔淨、安全的可再生 能源？

國際能源組織報告指出，包括風能在內的可再生能源發展迅速，在2000年已經佔全球總發電量19%，更有趕 及燃煤發電量的趨勢。

如果你是中電的股東，你希望公司把你的資金投放在具發展潛力的能源項目嗎？

立即行動：保障股東權益、遏止中電污染環境

參與網上簽署行動，在下列股東回條簽名，並於4月22日前傳真至綠色和平 (傳真: 27452426)，或電郵至donorservices@hk.greenpeace.org；
把本網頁傳閱予其他股東，邀請他們加入簽署行動；
我們正搜集中電股東對在港發展可再生能源的意見，若您是中電股東，歡迎參與此意見調查，詳情可 致電2854 8312與可再生能源項目主任陳小萍聯絡或電郵至 ivy.chan@hk.greenpeace.org!
欲了解我們在可再生能源項目的工作，登入此網頁。
請即行動，齊心要求中電負擔企業責任! 多謝支持!


相關連結

股東回條 (PDF)
轉寄給朋友 | 返回上一頁 | 列印版本

[letxa2000]

Now there's an idea. Post messages in a foreign language virtually no-one can understand. That way no one will question you on it. Of course, no-one will understand it, either, so you are mostly talking to yourself and maintaining the copy/paste frenzy.

[halva]

קטלני
גרינפיס חשף חומרים רעילים במוצרים של דיסני

יום ה' 15 באפריל 2004
ישראל /תל אביב


דו"ח בינלאומי של גרינפיס אשר פורסם היום חושף כי כימיקלים רבים, אשר עלולים לגרום לנזקים ארוכי טווח, נמצאים במוצרי הלבשה של חברת דיסני. מוצרי דיסני, הכוללים חולצות, פיג'מות, ותחתונים, נרכשו ב-19 מדינות ברחבי העולם ונבדקו ע"י המעבדה החיצונית "יורופינז" בדנמרק.


הדו"ח, הנקרא "בגדי ילדים רעילים מאת דיסני", חושף כי רוב הבגדים הכילו חומרים מסוכנים.
החומרים – הנמצאים בהדפסי הדמויות – הגיעו קרוב לוודאי עקב שיטות הדפסה הכוללות שימוש בPVC פלסטיסול. ילדים אשר לובשים בגדים אלה במשך תקופה ארוכה עלולים לספוג חומרים אלה דרך העור. בין החומרים נמצאו עופרת, המשפיעה על התפתחות מערכת העצבים ובחשיבה, וכן קדמיום, אלקינפנולים ואורגנוטינים אשר גורמים לסרטן הלימפה, לפגיעה בתפקוד המיני של גברים ולפגיעה בכליות.

"החדשות הטובות הן שניתן להדפיס חולצות צבעוניות ללא שימוש בחומרים מסוכנים" אומרת אזה קרוסווסקה, קמפיינרית של גרינפיס. המשווקים יכולים למלא תפקיד חשוב בהפחתת הסיכון לצרכנים. חולצה עם דמותו של 'טיגר' שנקנתה בדנמרק, בחנות Hennes & Mauritz לדוגמא, הכילה רמות אפסיות של חומרים מסוכנים, כיוון שבשנת 2002 החליטה חברת H&M להמיר את ה PVC בחומרים אלטרנטיביים בכל המוצרים הנמכרים ברשת.

ארגון גרינפיס קרא בשנת 2003 לחברת דיסני לקחת אחריות ולחדול משימוש ב PVC במוצריה. חברת דיסני הגיבה באומרה כי מוצריה עומדים בדרישות החוק, ולא פעלה מעבר לכך. כאשר חברת דיסני מחכירה את הלוגו והדמויות שלה, היא מעמידה שורה של דרישות קפדניות באשר לסוג הבדים והעיצוב. בנקל יכלה החברה גם לדרוש את השימוש בחומרים אשר אינם מסוכנים לציבור.

בשנת 2001 נחתמה אמנת שטוקהולם , למניעת השימוש במוצרים המכילים מזהמים אורגניים אמידים (Persistent Organic Pollutants-POP's) תוך מציאת תחליפים ידידותיים לבריאות ולסביבה. "אמנם האמנה כוללת רק 12 חומרים מסוכנים בשלב זה, אך עדיין האמנה מייצגת כיוון ראוי לתעשייה בת קיימא" אומר יניב מזרחי, מנהל מאבק הרעלים של גרינפיס בישראל. "בעוד שישראל מתיימרת להיות מדינה מערבית מתוקנת, אין בה ולו מכון אחד לניתור של דיוקסין – הPOP המסוכן מכולם, הגורם למקרים רבים של סרטן ולפגיעה קשה בנשים ועוּברים. אזרחי ישראל חשופים לכן לא רק לחומרים המסוכנים החבויים בדמויות דיסני, אלא גם לתוצרים של התעשייה הבלתי מנותרת בישראל" אמר מזרחי.


ליחצו כאן לקריאת הדו"ח המלא (באנגלית, בפורמט PDF) .



* הדו"ח סקר 19 מדינות שונות ברחבי העולם. מוצרים הנמכרים בישראל טרם נבדקו.

[halva]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/04/040416005924.htm

Researchers Reveal Iron As Key To Climate Change

MOSS LANDING, California -- A remarkable expedition to the waters of Antarctica reveals that iron supply to the Southern Ocean may have controlled Earth's climate during past ice ages. A multi-institutional group of scientists, led by Dr. Kenneth Coale of Moss Landing Marine Laboratories (MLML) and Dr. Ken Johnson of the Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute (MBARI), fertilized two key areas of the Southern Ocean with trace amounts of iron. Their goal was to observe the growth and fate of microscopic marine plants (phytoplankton) under iron-enriched conditions, which are thought to have occurred in the Southern Ocean during past ice ages. They report the results of these important field experiments (known as SOFeX, for Southern Ocean Iron Enrichment Experiments) in the April 16, 2004 issue of Science.

Previous studies have suggested that during the last four ice ages, the Southern Ocean had large phytoplankton populations and received large amounts of iron-rich dust, possibly blown out to sea from expanding desert areas. In order to simulate such ice-age conditions, the SOFeX scientists added iron to surface waters in two square patches, each 15 kilometers on a side, so that concentrations of this micronutrient reached about 50 parts per trillion. This concentration, though low by terrestrial standards, represented a 100-fold increase over ambient conditions, and triggered massive phytoplankton blooms at both locations. These blooms covered thousands of square kilometers, and were visible in satellite images of the area.

Each of these blooms consumed over 30,000 tons of carbon dioxide, an important greenhouse gas. Of particular interest to the scientists was whether this carbon dioxide would be returned to the atmosphere or would sink into deep waters as the phytoplankton died or were consumed by grazers. Observations by Dr. Ken Buesseler of Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution and Dr. Jim Bishop of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratories (reported separately in the same issue of Science) indicate that much of the carbon sank to hundreds of meters below the surface. When extrapolated over large portions of the Southern Ocean, this finding suggests that iron fertilization could cause billions of tons of carbon to be removed from the atmosphere each year. Removal of this much carbon dioxide from the atmosphere could have helped cool the Earth during ice ages. Similarly, it has been suggested that humans might be able to slow global warming by removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere through a massive ocean fertilization program.

Unlike previous iron fertilization experiments, SOFeX focused on the two different parts of the Southern Ocean to determine if the iron-induced blooms would be influenced by variations in silicic acid concentrations. Silicic acid is essential to the growth of diatoms, a common type of phytoplankton. The southern part of the Southern Ocean typically has an abundance of silicic acid but the northern part often has very low levels. The results of this experiment indicate that even where silicic acid levels are low, iron fertilization can result in blooms of phytoplankton such as dinoflagellates and prymneseophytes, which do not require silicon for growth yet still consume vast amounts of carbon dioxide. This finding has doubled the area of the Southern Ocean that scientists believe could be important for carbon cycling.

The SOFeX experiment was carried out during January and February of 2002, after a decade of planning and preparation, and was funded by the US National Science Foundation and the US Department of Energy. It involved two US research vessels from Scripps Institution of Oceanography and one US Coast Guard research ice-breaker, as well as about 100 scientists from at least eighteen different research institutions. This important experiment is covered in three research articles in the April 16 issue of Science, and is featured on the magazine's cover.

[halva]

Arianna Huffington has just written an article called 'The Pentagon Sounds the Alarm on Global Warming'. At the end of it she says: 'The Democratic nominee needs to remind the White House — and the American people: It’s not nice to fool with Mother Nature.'

There would be nothing wrong with a Democratic Party candidate doing that, but it should not be ignored that there are by now very large numbers of Americans who realise that 'fooling with Mother Nature' is something currently proceeding on a gigantic, planetary, scale, with the blessings of not only of the Bush regime but also of many opponents of Bush who are genuinely concerned about global climate change and are supporters of 'geoengineering'.

[halva]

http://www.willthomas.net/Articles/Italianchemtrails.htm

ITALIANS CONCERNED OVER CHEMTRAILS COME TO NORTH AMERICA LOOKING FOR ANSWERS AND ALLIES
Exclusive Report by William Thomas

Concerned countrymen have dispatched two Italian filmmakers to document chemtrails on the other side of the Atlantic. After flying in from Rome earlier this week, Vincent Gambino and Duccio Benvenuti interviewed the author – and were interviewed in turn at his island hideout.

Vincent and Duccio showed video recently filmed from their 3,500 year old village in northern Italy. Located 500 meters above the sparkling Mediterranean, the descendants of ancient Rome look out daily on air traffic departing and landing at a major airport to the south. While high-flying airliners sometimes scrawl brief contrails across flawless skies, the predominantly low-altitude aircraft leave no contrails at all.

But sparse contrails have not spared the town’s airspace from becoming completely obscured by jet trails in recent years.

“We wake up some days and the whole sky is filled with trails, and there is no good explanation of this,” Vincent said.

Excellent digital footage presented by the pair showed extensive criss-crossing plumes coalescing and spreading out over Italian skies – the unmistakable signature of chemtrails. Pointing to the extensive sky grids, Vincent said simply, “Impossible.”


“FAMOUS WHITE PLANES”
Vincent related how a protest last year among airport workers at Fiumicino received prominent media coverage in Italy, after a USAF tanker Vincent referred to as another “famous white plane” landed and taxied to a cordoned off section of Rome’s big international airport. “No one was allowed close for two or three days,” Vincent recalls. Airport workers were angry at the secrecy surrounding the white American air force plane, he said, and the fact that they “couldn’t do their jobs.”

Working closely with Nexus Italy, Vincent has been investigating chemtrails since becoming aware of them fouling Italy’s skies two years ago. Hoping to spur awareness and action across a country intensely interested in information overlooked or censored by the mainstream press, the two filmmakers are producing a one-hour documentary on chemtrails for Italian audiences.


A TALE OF TWO TOWNS

During their visit to Canada, the Italians were especially interested in the experience of Espanola. Repeatedly overflown by photo-identified U.S. Air Forcer tankers spraying broad white plumes that made people sick over 50 square-miles in the spring and summer of 1991, this small community west of Sudbury, Ontario was the first to petition a national government to stop chemtrail spraying. (An activist involved in the early Espanola protest said in a recent interview that while spraying has dropped off there, "I'm convinced people here have died as a result of this spraying, including a close friend.")

Vincent added that a village located in a valley north of Venice has undergone an aerial onslaught similar to Espanola’s. In Fletre In Val Belluna, “people started complaining” after many took ill following heavy chemtrailing there.

On November 18, 2001 Espanola residents presented a petition to the Canadian Parliament in Ottawa, demanding an explanation and cessation of aerial spraying. The Canadian Department of National Defense, which does not operate tanker planes, eventually replied, “It’s not us.”

Somewhat enigmatically, DND added, “The Canadian Forces have confirmed that they are not aware of any visiting foreign military aircraft having requested diplomatic clearance to conduct aerial spraying or to drop chaff in the vicinity of Espanola."

With 15% of NORAD’s Cheyenne Mountain air defense headquarters staffed by Canadian military officers, U.S. military overflights are daily occurrences over Canada. Military exercises – including chemtrails, according to the Victoria Airport Authority - are arranged directly between Canadian and U.S. commanders; not by civilian “diplomatic” requests.

In Italy, a “Parliamentary interrogation” - or investigation – into the purpose and composition of chemtrails is now being sought. The Italians hope to raise the issue of chemtrails before the European Union, as well. After protesting HAARP, it is hoped that the government representing a growing number of European countries will also condemn chemtrails.


ESPANOLA LAB TESTS
In Espanola, lab tests of rainwater falling through extensive chemtrail plumes revealed levels of aluminum seven-times higher than existing provincial safety limits for drinking water. Other spray simply fell as visible, flesh-stinging particles, thick as snow.

Microscopic quartz particles predominated in the Espanola chemtrails analysis, with one chemtrails fallout sample taken from a car windshield showing an 80% quartz component. The electrical conductivity of quartz – especially its use by Nikola Tesla in his high-energy experiments - has raised speculation that the spraying over Espanola may have been connected with HAARP – and/or airborne laser experiments using a Boeing 747 as a weapons platform. An amateur radio operator has detected high levels of electrical energy over Espanola during heavy chemtrail spraying. On one occasion the Prime Minister’s aircraft was forced to make an emergency landing due to “electrical problems” while flying through the area.


THE TESLA CENTER
Also known as the “Tesla Center”, Ohio’s Wright Patterson Air Force Base is said to be the repository of that energy inventor’s prodigious papers and patents. Two scientists working on the chemtrail project at “Wright Pat” told Columbus Alive reporter Bob Fitrakis that besides climate-modification, temporary “chemical antennas” utilize barium sprayed by air force tankers to conduct radio and radar waves over-the-horizon. Extremely high energy beamed from HAARP could also be ”ducted” by barium chemtrails, affecting countries thousands of miles away from those planet-threatening Alaskan transmitters. [Chemtrails Confirmed]

HAARP was last ordered to full power one-week before Sept. 11, 2001. [All Fall Down: The Politics of Terror and Mass Persuasion]


HAARP HAUNTS ITALIANS
The Italians are especially concerned over HAARP. Despite the European Union’s diplomatic condemnation of HAARP several years ago, the monster with electronic claws continues to grow.

The holder of the original HAARP patents, Bernard Eastlund, has said that because of limited available electricity through a rural Alaska power grid, the only way for HAARP to reach high-power would be to generate its own power using North Slope natural gas. So HAARP watchers took note when, late last month as HAARP was ordered to double power output, the Bush administration approved natural gas drilling on Alaska’s North Slope.

Already the most powerful energy transmitter used to turn planetary processes against themselves, radio-frequency specialist Richard Lampe announced at last September’s Radio Frequency Interference meeting that HAARP’s experimenters hope to quadruple the power of its steerable energy beam “from its current 960 kW output to 3.6 Megawatts.” [The ARRL Letter Oct31/03]

DARPA’s drastic if not demented and possibly demonic 400% boost to HAARP’s already radical radiations will make this troposphere-twisting transmitter the worst in the world by orders of extremely risky magnitude.


BUT WHY?
The original idea and intent, Eastlund told me in an earlier interview for The Georgia Straight, was to manipulate weather at great distances using HAARP’s computer-controlled antenna array to “steer” part of the ionosphere around. (Think of Earth doffing her protective cap to killing gamma and x-rays from unprecedented solar flares.)
HAARP on steroids is not pretty to contemplate. But as Chemtrails Confirmed documents, the real plan is to pluck HAARP at one-billion watts - at which time all eco bets are off.

The HAARPists assured HAM radio operators that their beast is muzzled whenever its beam wanders to jam the entire75/80 meter band. But the taboo topic of what happens when HAARP’s high-power pulses trigger a cascading resonance in the ionosphere was not discussed.

The answer, according to engineers working on the project, is that HAARP’s hellish beam can be further energized by the energy already in the ionosphere. That extra shove invites another escalating oscillation - and so on - until our spaceship does a Columbia and shreds her protective outer shielding. The one that keeps cosmic rays out and Earth’s paper-thin atmosphere in. (Does anyone still believe that everything about the shuttle’s crackup was not a metaphor for our times – and an omen?)


EASTLUND’S CURRENT PROJECTS
Hoping to cash in on climate change, Eastlund says that his company ESEC has recently signed a contract with the European Space Agency “to review the weather modification potential of the HAARP facility in Alaska.”

Eastlund is also looking to abort budding tornadoes with HAARP - effectively turning off these whirling dervishes before wind speeds reach destructive force.

Another company courting catastrophes has already used USAF chemtankers to spray tons of gel into a budding hurricane in order to dry up the moisture that drove it. Who can argue with saving lives and property? But neither Eastlund nor Dyn-O-Mat has satisfactorily explained what happens to energy equivalent to hundreds of hydrogen bombs “dissipated” from tornadoes and hurricanes into our spaceship’s closed recirculating atmosphere. All that extreme weather-causing heat has to go somewhere.
Meanwhile, as exceptionally sudden and severe off-season tornadoes keep trying to remind North Americans of our folly, Eastlund enthuses over how all the juice needed to zap ”twisters” will magically emanate from “high power electromagnetic radiation produced with solar power satellites.”

Remember: we are all antennas. Even as low-power cellphones become recognized as worthy successors to Big Tobacco’s misery and mortalities, the Texas inventor has yet to describe the effects on wild and human lives already being hosed by HAARP at its present power levels.

For Eastlund, the danger of dreaming on planetary scales is that smaller details – such as the planet’s inhabitants – can be overlooked. His present preoccupations with HAARP include using it as a “missile shield antenna” against anyone stupid enough to invite instant massive retaliation by shooting anything bigger than a spitball through the air at the United States.
Whatever excuse is used, a handful of ionospheric hot-rodders want to hold HAARP’s pedal down. His personal fantasy, Eastlund says using somewhat different terms, is to unleash one-trillion-watts of power into the electrically Chaotic region capping our planet. As the sun continues to burp tsunamis of energy at the ionosphere, the unpredictable outcomes of goosing this already unpredictably fluctuating realm with so much more power include wild weather and blown-our power grids thousands of miles from Alaska. And maybe no more ionosphere.

If destroying Earth as a habitable planet is not ambitious enough, Eastlund’s “Current Projects Menu” also includes more techno “quick fixes” to planet-threatening pollution too profitable to make and “clean-up” to curb:

q weather modification using HAARP and North Slope gas

q high power solar satellites for weather modification

q ozone hole mitigation using electromagnetic processes some scientists fear could actually destroy the remnants of Spaceship Earth’s tattered radiation shielding.


But not if our Italian chemtrails allies can help it. According to the visiting filmmakers, Italy’s Democratic Left party - the country’s recent former government and now Italy’s official Opposition – is demanding a Parliamentary investigation into chemtrails and their possible connection to HAARP.


BARIUM FOUND IN CHEMTRAILS OVER ITALY, CANADA, USA
In Edmonton, Alberta last winter - after city landscape contractor Dave Dickie found electrical conductivity in city soils as much as 4.6 – 7-times higher than normal and acceptable levels - tests conducted by Nor-West Labs on snow samples collected from extensive chemtrails found levels of aluminum oxide and barium in northeast Edmonton at more than twice the levels recorded at a heavily polluted diamond mine.

Though barium is twice as reflectant as glass – and thus serves well as a sunlight reflector called for in the late Dr. Edward Teller’s “sunscreen” scheme – this common electrolyte is also an excellent conductor of electricity.

Vincent says that his group is currently raising money for more extensive – and expensive - tests on chemtrail fallout. But after collecting “white material” from the chemclouds, the Italians have already found “barium salts” in the mix.

While many barium salts are relatively “safe”, other barium compounds have been used as rat poison. Though the filmmakers did not know the type of barium identified in Italian chemtrails, we all wondered just who are the lab rats in this ongoing secret experiment?
Vincent reported widespread health effects following chemtrail spraying – including sudden nosebleeds suffered by his mother, sister and father in Florence after “many trails” there 18 months ago.


SMALL ORBS FILMED AROUND CHEMTRAILS IDENTIFIED
In other developments, video of small white orbs filmed near chemtrails in Italy have been identified as robot drones originally developed by the Italian military’s “Project Cipher”. The program was sold to the U.S. military after Cipher funding ran out in Italy in the ‘Seventies.


CHEMTRAILS SPRAYED FROM WINGS, NOT ENGINES
Duccio and Vincent also said they have excellent, high-resolution photos of spray coming off the entire trailing edge of sprayplane wings – “not the engines,” Vincent emphasized.

In their rush to make connections, the CD containing these pictures and other material was unfortunately left behind. I hope to post these photos - as well as exclusive footage of chemtrails over Italy - on this website shortly.


CONTRAILS DECREASING AS CHEMTRAIL COMPLAINTS CONTINUE
In related developments, NASA scientists say that despite a steady increase in commercial air traffic over Europe and the Continental United States in recent decades, normal airliner contrails have significantly decreased over central Europe, the heavily traveled North Atlantic Flight Corridor and the USA.

NASA’s 2002 study, “An Estimation of CONUS Contrail Frequency” used computer algorithms developed by atmospheric expert Patrick Minnis to estimate contrail frequency. The chemtrails debunker found that as of May 2002, estimates of contrail coverage over the North Atlantic and central Europe "are significantly smaller than those given in 1994.”


CONTRAILS – HEALTH HAZARD?
Official insistence that contrails are harmless is dangerous nonsense. Formed when pollutants and moisture in hot jet exhaust is momentarily flash-frozen on contact with a sometimes super-cold stratosphere, condensation trails from jet engines contain highly toxic petroleum particulates – including carcinogenic benzenes and naphthalene – as well as heavy concentrations of soot, and other contaminants detrimental to life. While jet fuel “fallout” readings under heavily-traveled air routes are not publicized, residents living around airports and military air bases continue to be stricken by jet fuel pollution in their air and drinking water. [Scorched Earth]

JP-8 - the sweet-smelling intoxicant connected with jet flight - is actually quite nasty. Since Desert Storm felled so many tanker crews, sparking a pilots’ exodus from the Air National Guard that currently continues, the US Air Force has spent more than $25 million studying the poisoning of ground crews and other personnel exposed to jet fuel fumes.

The findings aren’t worth any kind of paycheck: lung and liver damage, severe asthma, rashes – even mutated DNA derailing future generations.

AND THE CLOUD YOU FLEW IN ON
According to German atmospheric scientists, “normal contrails” have increased cloud cover over Europe by a climate-changing 10%.

In the science of a system so vast even part of a percentage point can signal major changes, since the jet age took off in the ‘Sixties, cloud cover over the United States has increased a whopping 5%. But for Americans living beneath heavily trafficked air corridors, 12,000 bumper-to-bumper jetliners making 62 million flights a year have increased local cloud cover by 20% - enough to crank the climate thermostat and the weather.

All this before chemtrails were added to the artificial cloud-making mix - starting big time around the winter of 1998, when so many got sick. Since then, citizens in at least 14 nations have been enduring the theft of their serenity, health and blue skies by chemtrails, contrails - or both.

It is all pollution. Even the “harmless” water vapor from all those jet engines traps five-times more heat than the CO2 spewed by those same toxic turbines.

The highest contrail concentrations in North America have been found over the Pacific Northwest, central Canada and the eastern Midwestern U.S.A. But NASA now reports that these regions – which used to see twice the number of contrails as the continental average – have been seeing significantly fewer contrails since the winter of 2001.
Which is interesting, since during this same time period people in Portland, Seattle and other Pacific Northwest centers were yelling bloody murder about being “hammered” by chemtrails. [Chemtrails Confirmed]

Even as international air transport authorities rejoice in reporting airline travel back to “near normal” planet-wrecking levels following airliner-delivered Sept. 11 and SARS, NASA studies have found “unusual weather patterns” – not curtailed airline flights – are causing the curtailed contrails … even as chemtrails over cities such as Portland, Marin and Santa Cruz remain a daily curse.


TAKE IT HIGHER
A Nov. 25 radio show in Santa Cruz heard many listeners calling in to express their outrage over continuous chemtrail activity over this previously sunny California coastal city.

With Orwell being more ruthlessly rewritten, and the Reich reemerging under the successor to its first Bush patron, perhaps it is time to envision connecting the issues, principles and coordinators that so far this year have brought more than 20 million people into the streets of our global village.

Imagine including chemtrails in anti-war, anti-globalist, peace, ecology and social justice
speeches and protests! After all, these issues are linked fundamentally. And the hour is so late, it’s already past. (We’re now in overtime. Together.)

Hopefully, the evidence and video Vincent and Duccio are bringing back to Italy can persuade parliaments in that country and the European Union to sound loud and uncooperative alarms over the chemtrails their own governments must be approving.

Which would be interesting.


BUSH THE GREAT UNIFIER
“Who gave Bush permission to do these things?” Vincent asked just before I spilled the pasta into the sink.

While we could still enjoy dishrack-drained fettuccini, it seems that none us at the table could stomach “Boosh”. From the stories the Italians related, current European concerns revolve around America’s increasingly Israeli-like occupation of Iraq, Bush’s last sanctioned stampede of the world’s worst carbon cowboys, the gulag at Guantanamo, implantable cash-and-ID chips, surveillance cameras and internal “watch lists”, complete suspension of the US Constitution and open talk by the Pentagon of a military government soon, the imminent and total bankruptcy of the world’s most indebted nation, depleted uranium as the Pentagon’s urban weapon-of-choice – and the real show stopper, to which everything else is a distraction.

If you don’t think you’re part of a Sixth Great Extinction Event proceeding faster than the last one that took out the dinosaurs and just about everything else – think chemtrails. And think again.

From chemtrails to climate change, global corporate extortion, and the escalating military and eco-terrorism coming from a White House as illegally occupied as Iraq - all present agreed on an ocean-spanning effort that “connects the dots” between the make-or-break issues of our times.

The time to reach out to Europe and the rest of the world is now.

William Thomas
Dec/3

[halva]

I am open to dialogue around the proposition that HAARP could be used for beneficial purposes and/or that chemtrails/geoengineering may be necessary.

I am not open to any proposition that they do not exist and/or are not occurring. And I will spam anyone who attempts to argue on the basis of such assumptions.

[halva]

For Eastlund, the danger of dreaming on planetary scales is that smaller details – such as the planet’s inhabitants – can be overlooked. His present preoccupations with HAARP include using it as a “missile shield antenna” against anyone stupid enough to invite instant massive retaliation by shooting anything bigger than a spitball through the air at the United States.


William Thomas is an American and notice how even he is a celebrant of the American consciousness of national strength derived from a perceived ability to retaliate crushingly against aggression originating from anywhere on the earth.

People like Noam Chomsky, who is visiting Athens Greece this week, do Americans a disservice by trying to make them feel guilty about this mentality. It is like trying to make a Catholic feel guilty about believing in the infallibility of the Pope or a to-the-bootstraps Brit feel embarrassed about loving the Queen.

[halva]

For more on Chomsky, see
http://www.ariannaonline.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9174

[jayreynolds]

Wayne Hall(halva) wrote:

"I am open to dialogue around the proposition that HAARP could be used for beneficial purposes and/or that chemtrails/geoengineering may be necessary.

I am not open to any proposition that they do not exist and/or are not occurring. And I will spam anyone who attempts to argue on the basis of such assumptions."

Well, well, well.

Such a childish argument you have, Wayne.

Guess what?
Arianna has a forum just for you!

"Spammers Hall of Shame
This is were spammer messages go when they die. We leave them here for people to see the antics of some of the more , uh... colorful visitors to our forum. Be warned that we don't edit anything from the original postings if they make it here. What you see here will be the stunning naked truth about some peoples lack of maturity and good judgment. Proceed at your own risk..."

[jayreynolds]

Wayne Hall just congratulated "Boomer Chik" at CTC on posting some of chemtrail cult promoter "William Thomas" writing.
"Thanks for posting these, BC."
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000138.html

Here are some excerpts from those writings that should be the topic of debate, because all of them are false:

Will halva have the guts to defend these falsities, or will he just ignore Thomas' sophistry and spam anyone who calls attention to it?

-Normal contrails dissipate less than one minute after formation.
FALSE

-Many long-lingering "chemtrails" being reported across North America are being made at altitudes between 10,000 and 15,000 feet - well below the stratosphere where ice-crystal cloud condensation forms.
NO PROOF SHOWN

-Commercial aircraft do not cross each other's
flight paths in Xs and grid-patterns at the same altitude.
THEY ARE ALLOWED TO CROSS WITHIN 2000 FT OF ALTITUDE, INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM 6 MILES BELOW.

-Chemtrails, on the other hand, have been observed through high-power telescopes and binoculars to be streaming from tanker tailbooms pointing downward at a 60-degree angle - the normal configuration for deployed refueling tailbooms.
NO PROOF SHOWN- FALSE ASSERTION

-Chemtrails have also been observed streaming in thick white streams inboard of the wingtips but outboard of wing-mounted jet engines, where aerial tanker refueling probes are also deployed.
NO PROOF SHOWN- FALSE ASSERTION

-Hundreds of eye-witnesses have become ill within hours of watching chemtrails woven over their heads.
NO PROOF SHOWN- FALSE ASSERTION

-Most likely caused by misadjusted or malfunctioning spray nozzles, this material has been tentatively identified by a microbiologist as a "bio-matrix" for hosting and dispersing pathogens. Uncontaminated, fully-documented samples of this aerial fallout are being analyzed now.
THIS WAS WRITTEN YEARS AGO, WHERE IS THE ANALYSIS?

-Previous (though inconclusive) samples tested in Washington state, Ohio and Wyoming have revealed the presence of highly toxic ethylene dibromide (a component of JP8 jet fuel) and Pseudomonas Flourescens (a genetically modified bacteria that is extremely antibiotic resistant).
NO PROOF SHOWN- FALSE ASSERTION, WHERE ARE THESE LAB TESTS?

-Until the lab results are in, lack of "proof" should not obscure an overwhelming preponderance of pattern and precedent. If a thousand people crowded around a field are sprayed with an unknown substance by unidentified aircraft...and if many of those people fall sick enough to be rushed to hospital...what would you conclude?
NO PROOF SHOWN- FALSE ASSERTION

==============================

[halva]

קטלני
גרינפיס חשף חומרים רעילים במוצרים של דיסני

יום ה' 15 באפריל 2004
ישראל /תל אביב


דו"ח בינלאומי של גרינפיס אשר פורסם היום חושף כי כימיקלים רבים, אשר עלולים לגרום לנזקים ארוכי טווח, נמצאים במוצרי הלבשה של חברת דיסני. מוצרי דיסני, הכוללים חולצות, פיג'מות, ותחתונים, נרכשו ב-19 מדינות ברחבי העולם ונבדקו ע"י המעבדה החיצונית "יורופינז" בדנמרק.


הדו"ח, הנקרא "בגדי ילדים רעילים מאת דיסני", חושף כי רוב הבגדים הכילו חומרים מסוכנים.
החומרים – הנמצאים בהדפסי הדמויות – הגיעו קרוב לוודאי עקב שיטות הדפסה הכוללות שימוש בPVC פלסטיסול. ילדים אשר לובשים בגדים אלה במשך תקופה ארוכה עלולים לספוג חומרים אלה דרך העור. בין החומרים נמצאו עופרת, המשפיעה על התפתחות מערכת העצבים ובחשיבה, וכן קדמיום, אלקינפנולים ואורגנוטינים אשר גורמים לסרטן הלימפה, לפגיעה בתפקוד המיני של גברים ולפגיעה בכליות.

"החדשות הטובות הן שניתן להדפיס חולצות צבעוניות ללא שימוש בחומרים מסוכנים" אומרת אזה קרוסווסקה, קמפיינרית של גרינפיס. המשווקים יכולים למלא תפקיד חשוב בהפחתת הסיכון לצרכנים. חולצה עם דמותו של 'טיגר' שנקנתה בדנמרק, בחנות Hennes & Mauritz לדוגמא, הכילה רמות אפסיות של חומרים מסוכנים, כיוון שבשנת 2002 החליטה חברת H&M להמיר את ה PVC בחומרים אלטרנטיביים בכל המוצרים הנמכרים ברשת.

ארגון גרינפיס קרא בשנת 2003 לחברת דיסני לקחת אחריות ולחדול משימוש ב PVC במוצריה. חברת דיסני הגיבה באומרה כי מוצריה עומדים בדרישות החוק, ולא פעלה מעבר לכך. כאשר חברת דיסני מחכירה את הלוגו והדמויות שלה, היא מעמידה שורה של דרישות קפדניות באשר לסוג הבדים והעיצוב. בנקל יכלה החברה גם לדרוש את השימוש בחומרים אשר אינם מסוכנים לציבור.

בשנת 2001 נחתמה אמנת שטוקהולם , למניעת השימוש במוצרים המכילים מזהמים אורגניים אמידים (Persistent Organic Pollutants-POP's) תוך מציאת תחליפים ידידותיים לבריאות ולסביבה. "אמנם האמנה כוללת רק 12 חומרים מסוכנים בשלב זה, אך עדיין האמנה מייצגת כיוון ראוי לתעשייה בת קיימא" אומר יניב מזרחי, מנהל מאבק הרעלים של גרינפיס בישראל. "בעוד שישראל מתיימרת להיות מדינה מערבית מתוקנת, אין בה ולו מכון אחד לניתור של דיוקסין – הPOP המסוכן מכולם, הגורם למקרים רבים של סרטן ולפגיעה קשה בנשים ועוּברים. אזרחי ישראל חשופים לכן לא רק לחומרים המסוכנים החבויים בדמויות דיסני, אלא גם לתוצרים של התעשייה הבלתי מנותרת בישראל" אמר מזרחי.


ליחצו כאן לקריאת הדו"ח המלא (באנגלית, בפורמט PDF) .



* הדו"ח סקר 19 מדינות שונות ברחבי העולם. מוצרים הנמכרים בישראל טרם נבדקו.

[jayreynolds]

If you did this sort of spam tactic at Chemtrailcentral, you'd be banned for breaking the rules, wayne.

hey wayne, will you at least answer these basic questions central to clarifying your position on "chemtrails", or will you do your best to ignore
them and post yet more spam in an attempt to distract from your failure to address real concerns?

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. What is the alleged purpose of "chemtrails"?

[halva]

If you did this sort of spam tactic at Chemtrailcentral, you'd be banned for breaking the rules, wayne.


If you, Raynolds, posted at Chemtrail Central what you post here, you would, Raynolds, be banned.

You DID, Raynolds, post at Chemtrail Central what you post here, and you, Raynolds, WERE banned.

[letxa2000]

halva: If you, Raynolds, posted at Chemtrail Central what you post here, you would, Raynolds, be banned. You DID, Raynolds, post at Chemtrail Central what you post here, and you, Raynolds, WERE banned.

The point is that your spamming technique would get you banned at Chemtrail Central. Heck, I posted the same questions twice in a thread at CTC and I started getting threatening replies that suggested if I were to post the questions again I'd be "reported", presumably banned.

The interesting thing is that you are engaged in spamming here that your comrades at CTC would condemn on their own board. Why do you engage in tactics that are frowned upon by others that share your beliefs?

Chemtrail believers don't want spamming on their own board but apparently have no problem doing it here. Sounds rather hypocritical, doesn't it?

[halva]

I am open to dialogue around the proposition that HAARP could be used for beneficial purposes and/or that chemtrails/geoengineering may be necessary.

I am not open to any proposition that they do not exist and/or are not occurring. And I will spam anyone who attempts to argue on the basis of such assumptions.

[halva]

For Eastlund, the danger of dreaming on planetary scales is that smaller details – such as the planet’s inhabitants – can be overlooked. His present preoccupations with HAARP include using it as a “missile shield antenna” against anyone stupid enough to invite instant massive retaliation by shooting anything bigger than a spitball through the air at the United States.


William Thomas is an American and notice how even he is a celebrant of the American consciousness of national strength derived from a perceived ability to retaliate crushingly against aggression originating from anywhere on the earth.

People like Noam Chomsky, who is visiting Athens Greece this week, do Americans a disservice by trying to make them feel guilty about this mentality. It is like trying to make a Catholic feel guilty about believing in the infallibility of the Pope or a to-the-bootstraps Brit feel embarrassed about loving the Queen.

[halva]

Jeanie wrote:

I simply can't understand why you waste sooooo much of your time trying to reason with debunkers !!! As far as I am concerned Chem-trails are NOT open for debate. You don't have to prove anything at all to these distorter's of truth. Use your time and energy informing others.

[halva]

I am open to dialogue around the proposition that HAARP could be used for beneficial purposes and/or that chemtrails/geoengineering may be necessary.

I am not open to any proposition that they do not exist and/or are not occurring.

[Bonehead9]

I am open to dialogue around the proposition that HAARP could be used for beneficial purposes and/or that chemtrails/geoengineering may be necessary.



Fine. but we can not have a dialogue without coming to a mutual understaning on common terms. So that we may understand exactly what you are talking about, Please define "Chemtrails." How are they formed, etc. I think that answering Jay's questions would be a good start.

[Bonehead9]

I am not open to any proposition that they do not exist and/or are not occurring.

Fine. Are you open to the the discussion of the existance of persistant contrails then? No I am not talking about chemtrails, I am talking about contrails.

If you are, then do you believe that it is possible for an ordinary contrail, formed from ordinary jet engine exhaust to persist beyond a minute or so?

[Bonehead9]

Jeanie wrote:

I simply can't understand why you waste sooooo much of your time trying to reason with debunkers !!! As far as I am concerned Chem-trails are NOT open for debate. You don't have to prove anything at all to these distorter's of truth. Use your time and energy informing others.


But you DO have to prove your theories to people that have never heard of them before, or do you just expect everyone to believe everything you say, just because you say it?

[letxa2000]

halva: I am open to dialogue around the proposition that HAARP could be used for beneficial purposes and/or that chemtrails/geoengineering may be necessary. I am not open to any proposition that they do not exist and/or are not occurring. And I will spam anyone who attempts to argue on the basis of such assumptions.

In other words, you admit that you are engaged in useless spamming? No wonder this discussion has become quite useless. Your promise to engage in socially unacceptable behavior (spamming) anyone who doesn't agree with your conclusions demonstrates just how childish and unsubstantiated your position really is.

Answer's Jay's questions already. Contribute something substantive to the debate, if you are able. Stating that you are right and everyone else (including all real climate scientists on the planet) is wrong and showing an unwillingness to discuss the basis for your conclusion is unacceptable and is pretty much why no-one believes you outside of your little group of followers.

[Bonehead9]

Halva has followers?

even the ubertroll, Gaiacomm, has abandoned him.

[foot_soldier]

"airtankerpilot" wrote:


.....Planes do not make a sky full of cirrus.....

That's not true.

Why don't you post some of the studies that have to do with the restructuring of regional and international Air Traffic Control to accommodate on-demand lowering of commercial flight altitudes in order to avoid excessive contrail formation and tell people why it is felt this is becoming necessary?

Why the Big Secret around all of this?

I think people should know about it, don't you?

[foot_soldier]

If the environmental impact of normal contrails is nothing to be concerned about then why is so much valuable time, energy and money being directed toward the ultimate goal of AVOIDING contrail formation by commercial aircraft? These studies are very expensive, complex and time-consuming. I doubt very much they're being done for the hell of it.

There are in fact several studies in the current literature which corroborate the content and stated goal of the below-described study. This just happens to be one of the most comprehensive and most recent documents I have found thus far.

February 2004
CONUS contrail frequency and coverage estimated from RUC and flight track data
David P. Duda, Hampton University
NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA

Patrick Minnis, Atmospheric Sciences, NASA LaRC
Donald P. Garber, Atmospheric Sciences, NASA LaRC
Rabindra Palikonda, Analytical Services and Materials, Inc.

(Article submitted to Meteorologische Zeitschrift February 2004)

http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/conference/Duda.MZ.04.pdf

The framework developed here for simulating contrails in a realistic fashion will be extremely valuable not only for diagnosing linear contrail formation but also for examining parameterizations of contrail spreading and contrail optical properties, parameters necessary for determining and predicting contrail climate effects.

By comparisons with the observed contrails, the simulations should be useful for providing data need to correct biases in upper tropospheric humidity, a variable that could ultimately improve weather forecasts.

Because the methodology described in this study is based on hourly numerical weather analyses, it is possible to apply it in near-real time or in a forecast mode using predictions instead of analyses. If operated in a predictive fashion, it would be possible to confidently prognosticate those altitudes and areas where contrail outbreaks are likely.

With such information, it should be possible for air traffic controllers to reroute some of the upcoming flights to avoid the areas of potential contrail coverage and mitigate some of the potential climate impacts of air travel while conserving fuel in areas when contrail formation potential is low.

Much additional research is required, however, to reach the level of confidence needed for implementation of contrail prediction scheme, an act that would certainly disrupt many aspects of the present air traffic system. Nevertheless, the prototype contrail diagnosis model presented in this study represents an important step in developing accurate contrail forecasts and (mitigating) the effects of contrails on climate.

[Bonehead9]

So, Foot Soldier, what are we talking about here, the normal effects of aircraft contrails, or some kind of sinister plot to spray an unidentified chemical via chemtrails?

Please define your position. Thanks

[foot_soldier]

I think that atmospheric geo-engineering, specifically the purposeful upper-atmospheric dispersion of reflective aerosols via dedicated aircraft, and the documented environmental impact on our upper troposphere and lower stratosphere of "normal contrails" and contrail-induced aviation cirrus generated by commercial and military air traffic, are separate but related issues.

I think there is a very high probability that the former is well underway on a regional basis.

As for the latter, it's no big secret that persistent contrails and contrail-induced cirrus clouding are altering atmospheric chemistry, disrupting regional hydrology patterns, and destabilizing regional weather and climate patterns, particularly in the northern hemisphere. By the way I don't agree that these are "normal" effects. And neither, it would appear, do the researchers who are doing their best to quantify them for The Policymakers and The Stakeholders.

That is my position.

December 3, 2003
Low Flying Could Cut Pollution
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1098385,00.html

The environmental havoc wreaked by aviation could be brought under control if aircraft cruised at a lower altitude and flew in straight lines, according to leading scientists.

Just weeks ahead of a likely announcement on new runways from the transport secretary, Alistair Darling, experts suggested the rapid rise in emissions from air transport could be halted if the industry operated more efficiently.

Keith Mans, chief executive of the Royal Aeronautical Society, yesterday claimed pollution could be controlled even if the industry grows at the forecast rate of 3%-5% a year. "If we invest in technology, invest in operational improvements and look at the problems in a holistic way, there is a good chance we will be able to at least stabilise emissions in the medium term," said Mr Mans.

New research suggests that by flying 6,000ft lower than their present cruising altitude, airlines could cut the damage caused by vapour trails by 47% - although they would burn 6% more fuel. Vapour emissions are viewed as a big contributor to global warming. Greener by Design, a group of academics urging the industry to take on board environmental issues, believes that improved air traffic control could cut emissions by a further 10% if planes no longer had to fly "zig-zag" patterns and were able to avoid queuing for take-off and landing slots.

The findings contradict warnings from the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution that expansion in air travel is unsustainable.

[halva]

Coast to Coast with George Noory
William Thomas -Chemtrails- willthomas.net
Monday April 19th, 2004
West coast time it comes on at 11pm on my AM radio station.
William Thomas (willthomas.net), an award-winning Canadian journalist specializing in military affairs, health and the environment, will be giving an update on the current chemtrail situation.


You can listen on line at http://www.coasttocoastam.com/
or you can catch it on a bunch of AM radio stations
west coast time it comes on at 11pm.

There is a major break through in the chemtrail issue!!
Do not to miss this!


Wake Up Look Up Speak Out!
Thanks,
Inca

For more information please visit:
www.chemtrails911.com

EDUCATE- ACTIVATE!

[Sore Throat]

Reynolds, Bonehead and airtankerpilot are clearly promoting an agenda of disinformation, denying a reality that is so obvious to anyone taking the time to observe.

"airtankerpilot" wrote:



.....Planes do not make a sky full of cirrus.....


contradicted by Reynolds who responds to a William Thomas claim,


"-Normal contrails dissipate less than one minute after formation."
FALSE

So why don't you bunkers get your story straight...and while you're at it come to grips with the reality of aircraft emissions:



Source: http://www.skyhighway.com/~chemtrails/

[jayreynolds]

Reynolds, Bonehead and airtankerpilot are clearly promoting an agenda of disinformation, denying a reality that is so obvious to anyone taking the time to observe.
"airtankerpilot" wrote:


.....Planes do not make a sky full of cirrus..... [/quotecontradicted by Reynolds who responds to a William Thomas claim,
[quote]"-Normal contrails dissipate less than one minute after formation."
FALSE
So why don't you bunkers get your story straight...and while you're at it come to grips with the reality of aircraft emissions:

Source: http://www.skyhighway.com/~chemtrails/

So, Deborah(footsoldier), and 'sore' are trying to salvage a spammed out hoax once again. How does it feel to follow on the heels of spammers like Lance Haubrick and Wayne Hall, the brotherhood of spam, eh, throatee?
Like playing second fiddle, huh, Deborah?

The true facts are that neither of you have ever REALLY cared about anything else besides covering your own asses.
How do I know this? To some you might appear like genuine "chemtrail" cult 'activists', but looks are merely an illusion. Your ACTIONS speak for themselves.

First, REAL activists don't hide behind silly pseudonyms. They are proud of what they do and who they are. Wayne's got you both beat on sincerity!

Second, If you were actually interested in either "chemtrails" or contrails
you would have no problem answering my questions, remember them, don't worry, we're closing on page 100 and well over 10,000 age views on this thread, they will get repeated!

Third, if you were actually interested in gaining credibility you would shed yourselves of worthless skins like halva, giacon, and the Julian Penrod's of your cult, not to mention the money-grubbers like William Thomas and the hoax-meisters like Carnicom, who you by now know is quite insane.

Finally, for now, if you were really and truly interested in solving the "chemtrails" 'conundrum', or the eminently more fashionable contrails "havoc", you would have long ago published your own reproduction of Thermit's Flight Explorer study. You would, by now, be able to offer BOTH:

- proof of exactly which commercial airlines make persistent contrails (or, a "sky full of cirrus"), wouldn't it be nice to put a name and a tail number on all those 'offenders', eh, Deborah?
and also

-proof that only "unidentifiable" aircraft make "chemtrails", at which time you could simply begin telescopic photographs showing whether of not these planes were military or whatever.

But neither of you really are REAL activists, are you, 'Sore', Deborah?

You long ago gave Thermit the cold-shoulder, and likely he did the same to you, if the truth were told. You both snubbed his repeated pleas to reproduce his study. He's dropped out because he knows neither of you are genuine.

Face it, you are all the losers in this hoax, the bigest losers of all time.

[halva]

"Approximately 2,400 years ago Plato foresaw what is happening today. That is to say, he foresaw the mass subordination of the consciousness of peoples. Each of us is in the habit of looking down on the hoi polloi who fail to react to some governmental decision that is out of tune with the majority viewpoint. But we never reflect that we too are part of the hoi polloi. We too belong to the crowd with its passive acceptance of whatever happens. Instead of turning against those who are guilty of the anti-popular measures, we focus our anger on the mass of the people that remain inert. It is they who become the target for our momentary rage. Everyone does this, and the result is that we are the perennial audience at the same bad play, sponsored by the Industry for the Subordination of Mind. The subordination of mind is a familiar enough concept, but why industry? Simply because the project of subordinating the consciousness of peoples has taken on such dimensions internationally that only the word “industry” can convey the reality of what is happening."

from Demosthenes Liakopoulos: "An Industry for the Subordination of Mind".

[halva]

I am open to dialogue around the proposition that HAARP could be used for beneficial purposes and/or that chemtrails/geoengineering may be necessary.

I am not open to any proposition that they do not exist and/or are not occurring.

Why, I wonder, are no debunkers taking up my offer of dialogue around the proposition that HAARP could be used for beneficial purposes and chemtrails/geoengineering may be necessary?

Is it for fear of being held to account for the lies of the past?

Unfortunately I can give guarantees only for myself, but I give them: any debunker who wants to make the transfer to this new basis for discussion has my word of honour that I will ask no questions about why you lied about chemtrails.

For me, you can make a fresh start.

If you want to serve the interests of the globalist power elite, the way for you to do so is to show how HAARP could be beneficial and how chemtrails are necessary.

If you won't take on the job, it will be given to someone else.

And you will be left on the margins, at the mercy of the vengeful "chemmies", and with no Big Brothers to save you.

You will be the Saddam Husseins of the coming period.

Make the break now, before it's too late.

I, speaking personally, won't condemn you for it.

[letxa2000]

Halva: I am open to dialogue around the proposition that HAARP could be used for beneficial purposes and/or that chemtrails/geoengineering may be necessary.

Probably because it looked the same as the rest of your spam. And, if not, because it is off-topic and we tend to want to stay on-topic rather than chasing the latest conspiracy theory that you bring up when you tire (i.e., run out of evidence) of discussing the previous theory.


I am not open to any proposition that they do not exist and/or are not occurring.

In other words you are willing to dialogue as long as we agree with you. What a useful offer. Maybe that's why you were ignored. Again. :)

[jayreynolds]

"Why, I wonder, are no debunkers taking up my offer of dialogue around the proposition that HAARP could be used for beneficial purposes and chemtrails/geoengineering may be necessary?"

Personally, I fnd the premise preposterous. Haarp is an experimental device for ionospheric research. The greek premise that it could affect
anything else in conjunction with "chemtrails" in the upper troposhere is preposterous. Geoengineerng is pie-in-the-sky, fit for 'idea men' but not the real world. The claim that what are in fact ordinary contrails are a geoengineering scheme in progress is preposterous.

What's to dialogue, Wayne? Every time we asked for proof of geoengineering or haarp in action you come up empty-handed or post some ignorant drivel easily debunked. Your buddies won't even answer simple questions about your claims, and you have developed a habit of spamming to try and oerwhelm rational discourse. Face it, bub, you lost already and don't really want to talk about THAT anymore.


"Is it for fear of being held to account for the lies of the past?"

Care to enumerate said "lies of the past"?

How about Wayne adressing these lies from his buddy William Thomas?

-Normal contrails dissipate less than one minute after formation.
FALSE

-Many long-lingering "chemtrails" being reported across North America are being made at altitudes between 10,000 and 15,000 feet - well below the stratosphere where ice-crystal cloud condensation forms.
NO PROOF SHOWN

-Commercial aircraft do not cross each other's
flight paths in Xs and grid-patterns at the same altitude.
THEY ARE ALLOWED TO CROSS WITHIN 2000 FT OF ALTITUDE, INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM 6 MILES BELOW.

-Chemtrails, on the other hand, have been observed through high-power telescopes and binoculars to be streaming from tanker tailbooms pointing downward at a 60-degree angle - the normal configuration for deployed refueling tailbooms.
NO PROOF SHOWN- FALSE ASSERTION

-Chemtrails have also been observed streaming in thick white streams inboard of the wingtips but outboard of wing-mounted jet engines, where aerial tanker refueling probes are also deployed.
NO PROOF SHOWN- FALSE ASSERTION

-Hundreds of eye-witnesses have become ill within hours of watching chemtrails woven over their heads.
NO PROOF SHOWN- FALSE ASSERTION

-Most likely caused by misadjusted or malfunctioning spray nozzles, this material has been tentatively identified by a microbiologist as a "bio-matrix" for hosting and dispersing pathogens. Uncontaminated, fully-documented samples of this aerial fallout are being analyzed now.
THIS WAS WRITTEN YEARS AGO, WHERE IS THE ANALYSIS?

-Previous (though inconclusive) samples tested in Washington state, Ohio and Wyoming have revealed the presence of highly toxic ethylene dibromide (a component of JP8 jet fuel) and Pseudomonas Flourescens (a genetically modified bacteria that is extremely antibiotic resistant).
NO PROOF SHOWN- FALSE ASSERTION, WHERE ARE THESE LAB TESTS?

-Until the lab results are in, lack of "proof" should not obscure an overwhelming preponderance of pattern and precedent. If a thousand people crowded around a field are sprayed with an unknown substance by unidentified aircraft...and if many of those people fall sick enough to be rushed to hospital...what would you conclude?
NO PROOF SHOWN- FALSE ASSERTION

[jayreynolds]

WARNING!
THEY ARE SPRAYING FOR A MILITARY TEST TODAY!!
DID THEY ASK YOU IF YOU WANTED TO BE A PART OF A MILITARY TEST?!!
The information above was found today on http://www.wunderground.com/US/CA/Santa_Cruz.html.

Wayne, I went to the site, nobody "sprayed" anything. Military jets during training released packets of chaff. It's right there on the weather underground site, no mystery, no coverup, no hype.
http://www.skyhighway.com/%7Echemtrail/military_weather.htm

Why do you chemmies always feel the ned to be scaremongers?

Besides, halva, where are the pictures of the "chemtrails" that go along with the scare? There are no pictures because chaff is invisible to the naked eye, there were no "chemtrails", and your Santa Cruz buddies know it.

Why the lies, Wayne Hall?

[halva]

From Arianna Huffington's "Fanatics and Fools":
(p.72)

"Asthma and other environmental respiratory diseases are at an all-time high: 20 million people suffer from asthma, and six million of these are children. The president's preposterously titled "Clear Skies" legislation actually lowers the emissions standards for power plants, just as the new technology is coming on line that would make a higher standard attainable and affordable."


WH: My guess is that Arianna Huffington probably genuinely does not know that increasing the levels of carbon particles in the atmosphere is a basic geoengineering strategy for "dealing with" global warming.


(See the schoolbook cited by SmT).

[halva]

deleted

[halva]

[quote=halva]
If you want to serve the interests of the globalist power elite, the way for you to do so is to show how HAARP could be beneficial and how chemtrails are necessary.

If you won't take on the job, it will be given to someone else.

Make the break now, before it's too late.

[halva]

Joint Task Force Told Face to Face, Blackout was a Military Test


GFP Exclusive- by Oliver J. Midelson

December 6, 2003

At an under publicized public comment meeting, which was publicly ‘announced’ by a Department of Energy news release, Michael Kane outlined his report, published at Global Free Press, stating that the August 14th blackout was part and parcel to a multi-faceted military test. The Task Force was very attentive, attempting to take notes as fast as Michael spoke.

His comments can be heard in Windows Media player format here. They were the last comments made to the panel, and begin 1 hour and 4 minutes into the Windows Media file.

It was a snowy Friday afternoon in Manhattan and very few people showed up. Both Forbes and the Akron Beacon Journal left out Michael’s comments in their “coverage” of the New York pubic comment meeting. Once again the mainstream media completely fails the public, and Global Free Press is the only publication brave enough to run the real coverage of this so-called ‘public’ comment meeting. How public can it be if no one reports it? The “New Media” such as GFP, FTW, INN, SGTV, and many more are proving to be our only salvation.

Michael made the only interesting comments given the entire day with the exception of Carole Dortch-Wright, who spoke on behalf of New Jersey Governor James McGreevey. The NY Times, who had a reporter present at this meeting, seem to have provided no coverage in their Saturday edition. For the record, I personally saw Michael’s report handed to the NY Times reporter. Hopefully they are saving it for their Sunday edition, but I won’t hold my breath.

Very few people showed up to the public comment meeting in Cleveland, Ohio on December 4th, prompting Rep. Dennis Kucinich and four other members of Congress to accuse the D.O.E. of failing to adequately notify the public, according to the Akron Beacon Journal

The first point Michael made was that the Task Force Interim Report failed to address the possibility of Electro Magnetic Pulses causing the blackout. He noted that it is known HAARP was turned on at 4pm on August 14th, just 11 minutes before the blackout occurred. He stated the Air Force should be contacted and required to turn over all documentation pertaining to what HAARP was used for on that day.

Michael detailed the aerial aerosol spray operation he witnessed the night of the blackout, as well as referencing the proximity of the Determined Promise ’03 national military drills announced just one day after the blackout. He also mentioned he received a report that the Canadian border was militarized at 1pm on August 14th, just three hours before the blackout, in the Mohawk River Valley region. Why?

Dr. Nawal Kamel appeared to be pleased to hear Mr. Kane’s comments, as he was the only person who appealed to the Task Force as a citizen void of any special interest. In addition to this, Senior Policy Advisor James Glotfelty was nodding his head up and down as Michael began to speak of PD-16.

Wayne Madsen has revealed National Security Presidential Directive 16 (PD-16) gave the president authority to wage cyber-warfare against other countries, including bringing down their power grids. Michael pointed out we do not know if any elements of PD-16 pertain to North America.

He continued by referencing Tommy Franks’ recent comments in Cigar Aficionado. General Franks’ stated if another terrorist attack occurs in America, the Constitution would be scrapped for a military government. Visibly upset by this outrageous statement, Michael put down his prepared statement and made a much-needed comparison to the current ‘independent’ commission to investigate 9-11.

He noted how the victims family members were terribly disappointed with the 9-11 Commission, and that it is clear the commission will not withstand historical scrutiny. He ended by warning this Task Force the only way for them to avoid the same destiny is to address the questions outlined in his report. He then offered to hand his report to any one interested in reviewing it.

At this point, Alison Silverstein, co-chair of the Electric System Working Group (ESWG) threw both her hands out, prompting Michael to personally hand his report to all nine Task Force members.

I asked Michael what he thought of the Task Force’s response:

“I wanted to appeal to their hearts as well as their minds,” said Michael in the Park Central Hotel Lobby, “…I think I may have touched one or two hearts in there today.”

[halva]

[i]
Personally, I fnd the premise preposterous. Haarp is an experimental device for ionospheric research. The greek premise that it could affect
anything else in conjunction with "chemtrails" in the upper troposhere is preposterous.

[halva]

More from Arianna (pp.81-2)

Eric Schaeefer, director of the EPA Office of Regulatory Enforcement, resigned on February 27,2002.

What he wrote in his resignation letter:

"I cannot leave without sharing my frustration about the fate of our enforcement actions against power companies that have violated the Clean Air Act....We are fighting a White House that seems determined to weaken rules we are trying to enforce."

Arianna's comment:

What he might have written in the first draft: "I can't leave without sharing my frustration, Mr. President. Your recent proposal to amend the new source-review component of the Clean Air Act is - how can I say this? - stupendously moronic. It will, among other outrages allow a coal plant in Monroe, Michigan, that already emits more than 100,000 tons of choking sulfur dioxide, nearly 40,000 tons of nitrous oxide, and 17.5 million tons of of carbon dioxide into the air to emit about 40,000 more tons of sulfur dioxide a year. But the three hundred or so people who'll die prematurely from those pollutants are from Michigan. And Michigan was one of those uppity blue states that went for Gore. That's okay I suppose."

WH's comment: Shouldn't Republican supporters (and debunkers) be defending their President from the slanderous accusation that these policy innovations are motivated by party political considerations rather than as part of a mitigatory policy against global warming?

Remember SmT's Centre Point Learning Science I Essential Interactions Science book, its rhetorical question "Could we deliberately add particles to the atmospere?" and its suggestion: "Burning coal adds soot to the air. Creating this kind of sunscreen would be cheap."

It is clearly something that needs to be explained to Arianna Huffington also. Wouldn't it be more useful and politically relevant for them to be channeling their energies in this mainstream direction than in picking fights with the marginal activist William Thomas?

[jayreynolds]

halva wrote:

"My guess is that Arianna Huffington probably genuinely does not know that increasing the levels of carbon particles in the atmosphere is a basic geoengineering strategy for "dealing with" global warming."

"It is clearly something that needs to be explained to Arianna Huffington also."

Well, Wayne, you've burned up almost 100 pages here on her message board. Isn't it obvious by now that one of the following has occurred?

1. She hasn't bothered to look at the chemtrails hoax at all.
2. Neither you or any other chemmie has actually written or spoken to her about it because you are afraid of being laughed at.
3. She is a member of the conspiracy.
4. She is a jet set lady who travels nationwide on a weekly basis and has seen her share of ordinary contrails both in her former husband's private jets or from commercial airliners, and knows you are all a bunch of wackos.

In any of the above scenarios, you are all losers.

hahaha :lol:

BTW Wayne, what ever happened to your pledge to become the world's greatest spammer. bad idea, huh?

[halva]

How about the viewpoint of other debunkers?

Is it right for Arianna Huffington to go on thinking that the Bush administration's energy policies are dictated by a combination of miserly neo-liberal (in American terminology neo-conservative) economics and low-minded party-politics rather than the strategies against global warming advocated by the prestigious National Academy of Sciences?

Raynolds seems to think that the non-debunker side is going to be so stupid as to show all its cards on internet forums like this one.

[halva]

Halva: I am open to dialogue around the proposition that HAARP could be used for beneficial purposes and/or that chemtrails/geoengineering may be necessary.

Probably because it looked the same as the rest of your spam. And, if not, because it is off-topic and we tend to want to stay on-topic rather than chasing the latest conspiracy theory that you bring up when you tire (i.e., run out of evidence) of discussing the previous theory.


The topic of this thread is not whether chemtrails are contrails.

The topic of this thread is Arianna Huffington's view that Democrats should take up the issue of climate change in the US presidential campaign so as to bring home the lesson that 'it's not nice to fool with Mother Nature' as Republicans allegedly do when they fail to acknowledge that global climate change is real and has its roots in human activity.

The topic of this thread is therefore Arianna Huffington's apparent unawareness of the geoengineering programme first advocated by the American Academy of Science in its 1992 report on Climate Change, whose existence leads to the obvious conclusion that 'fooling with Mother Nature' is a bipartisan and in fact non-party-political policy both in the US and globally.

Arianna Huffington's apparent unawareness is further evidenced in the quoted passages from "Fanatics and Fools" where she attributes the Bush administration's energy policies to the lowest of party-political calculations, suggesting that the US government has other energy policies for areas where Republican voters are in the majority.

[foot_soldier]

"halva" wrote:


Raynolds seems to think that the non-debunker side is going to be so stupid as to show all its cards on internet forums like this one.

Exactly.

And by the way, on the subject of "Flight Explorer", just what in hell is THAT going to prove - that the "whitening of daytime skies" by "normal contrails" from "commercial aircraft" is perfectly OK?

WHATEVER people want to call them - chemtrails, contrails, aircraft emissions - and whether they're the result of increased air traffic or geo-engineering, or both - IT'S ALL POLLUTION for purposes of objective research documenting its DIRECT IMPACT on atmospheric chemistry, regional hydrology and weather patterns, stratospheric ozone depletion and, yes, CLIMATE CHANGE.

April 17, 2004
Toronto Globe & Mail

Some like it hot -- but a robin in the Arctic?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040417.wxcentre17/BNStory/specialScience

EXCERPT:

The growing season is increasing mainly because the last spring frosts are happening a little earlier each year -- a direct result of nighttime temperatures that aren't falling as much as they used to.

Now why might THAT be?

Anyone who's been keeping up with current research on the effect of contrail and aviation cirrus cover on the diurnal surface temperature range would know.

And as long as I'm here I might as well throw in that I'm damned sick and tired of all the bullsh*t labeling and pigeonholing that goes on here. Is there some kind of problem with just being an average human being who cares very much about what kind of world we're going to leave to those coming up behind us?

[halva]

[b]Well, Wayne, you've burned up almost 100 pages here on her message board. Isn't it obvious by now that ............
She hasn't bothered to look at the chemtrails hoax at all.

BTW Wayne, what ever happened to your pledge to become the world's greatest spammer. bad idea, huh

1. I am gratified by this tacit recognition that if Arianna Huffington had been exposed to (or had paid attention to) information about geoengineering/chemtrails she would have been persuaded by it and would not be talking as if US and global elite policy on climate change is an American party-political issue.

2. As for spamming, I have resorted to it only when I have detected absolute resistance to my proposal that discussion at this thread should stay on topic, i.e. on the subject of Arianna Huffington's understanding of the climate change question.

[halva]

[quote="jayreynolds"]
Care to enumerate said "lies of the past"?
[quote]

It would be contrary to the spirit of the deal I am proposing for me to enumerate your lies of the past.

The point is that if you accept the deal, these lies, and your reason for having told them, are your business, not mine.

[jayreynolds]

so, I'm assuming William Thomas' '
big news' was a flop?

[halva]

I don't know. I haven't heard.

I'm not counting on Will Thomas to come up with anything.

If he does, so much the better.

[jayreynolds]

same old song and dance. Willie's not going too far out on a limb, been shot down too many times.

Five years and he's not shown us those four lab tests he bragged about.
Four years and his air traffic controllers haven't come out yet.
Three years and the "scientists at Wright-Patrick" or "Deep sky" haven't come out yet.
Two years and chemtrails haven't "become a household word" yet.
One year and Dennis Kucinich still denies chemtrails, "Listen to me, i;m not into that."

Blah blah blah-
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/message/109910

[jayreynolds]

Deborah wrote:
"And by the way, on the subject of "Flight Explorer", just what in hell is THAT going to prove - that the "whitening of daytime skies" by "normal contrails" from "commercial aircraft" is perfectly OK?

WHATEVER people want to call them - chemtrails, contrails, aircraft emissions - and whether they're the result of increased air traffic or geo-engineering, or both - IT'S ALL POLLUTION for purposes of objective research documenting its DIRECT IMPACT on atmospheric chemistry, regional hydrology and weather patterns, stratospheric ozone depletion and, yes, CLIMATE CHANGE."

Deborah, you stupid woman. I've grown turnips with more brains than you. Even a Beale street crack 'ho knows how to turn a trick better than you. You can't prostitute yourself for a hoax and hope to gain credibility in the real world.

The "chemtrails" hoax has done more to hurt the issue of contrails research, and genuine activists regarding contrails, than anything else. Genuine activists like Holger Pedersen and real scientists like Travis and Minnis are appalled at the foolishness you people put out.

You may have once believed in the "chemtrails" hoax, but by now you damn well know it's false, but are trying to piggy-back reality onto fantasy because you won't admit the truth. I know you know, and that's all there is to it, you're not fooling me at all. For one, that's why Deborah will never have any credibility within the real world, with scientists or aviation issue groups, or anyone else who doesn't have their head up their ass.

You squandered it long ago, it's- gone with the wind.

Frankly, when you get right down to it, the world is your Rhett Butler, about you, they don't give a damn, and never will.

[halva]

Reynolds, the deal that I proposed to you can unfortunately only be binding on me, but I don't get the impression that you are moving towards it when you continue to be so rude to people I regard (and/or must regard) as my collaborators.

[letxa2000]

From the link (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/message/109910) mentioned by Jay:


Getting up your camcorder and recording the planes spraying. It's illegal for planes to be in such close proximity at one time as we ALL have seen. You can report this to the FAA, Air Traffic controlers, your local airports and tell them you are concerned about public safety with planes flying in such close proximity to each other and close times.. THAT THEY WILL LISTEN TO. According to Will Thomas they already got the spraying stopped over the city of Vancouver because of that reason. He said don't mention chemtrails, mind control, climate control.

Heheh. In other words, "Don't tell them what you really think so you aren't written off as a wacko." :)


Reasons given by Will Thomas. He believes The Govt is doing an experimental weather modification project...but it's NOT WORKING. Also it is believed that they are using the chemtrail for Bio reasons...spraying us with pathogens and it's also being used in conjunction with HAARP.... He even said he believes they are doing massive mind control on the public with the HAARP to "dumb us down" and using that in combination with the chem trails.

Wow... Weather modification (non-functioning), biological reasons, used in conjunction with HAARP, and mind control. 4 for 1! This has got to me the most efficient operation our government has ever engaged in. :)

[foot_soldier]

"jayreynolds", the quintessential Legend In His Own Mind, can't conceive of a frame of reference that isn't either Black or White.

Either someone is a "chemmie" and bordering on insane, not to mention "Communist" and/or "pagan", OR they are in complete alignment with his ironclad point of view which dictates in no uncertain terms that progressive and directly observable greenhouse gas pollution-driven damage to Earth's life-support systems is of little-to-no consequence let alone serious enough to motivate implementation of geo-engineering technology such as carbon sequestration, ocean iron fertilization, localized ionization of ozone-polluted urban air, and cloud-seeding.

Geo-engineering-as-climate-mitigation-technique is not just an "idea" anymore. It's been well underway, in several forms, for awhile now.

[halva]

Footsoldier, either he really is as you say, in which case he is sincere and there is no hope for him.

Or he is pretending to be as you say, in which case he is not sincere and may be open to a deal that would make it less of an odious waste of time to continue posting on this board merely so as not to allow oneself to be driven away.

The other debunker posters here are nonentities, and if Reynolds cuts a deal they will be struck dumb.

[ICU812]

Jay Reynolds Wrote:

""Deborah, you stupid woman. I've grown turnips with more brains than you. Even a Beale street crack 'ho knows how to turn a trick better than you.""


Jay, your obsession with this has given you an extra face. It may be time for you to get some rest, away from your computer. This will certainly be one of the comments you'll be remembered for.

Why not occupy some of your time and help us all answer these questions? Try and get some rest first dear, you're cracking up!!!

Are there currently any past or ongoing classified "atmospheric projects or programs" being conducted by NASA/UNEP/EDU./MIL./DARPA/DOE or other type GOV. body?

What research has been performed using Aluminum Oxide in relation to atmospheric sciences?
What were the results?
Who has performed this research and where are they employed now?
What value of Al is normal in our precipitation and what values are we currently seeing?
Is there a greater interest in the effects of Aluminum on plant material and forage crops since 1997?
What research was performed pre.... and past 1997?
Has Aluminum ever been suspended in a slurry and released from an aircraft...... other than chaff?

What were average atmospheric particulate values pre 1997 and what are they now?
What changes have occurred to visibility parameters for aircraft in recent years, who initiated the changes and why?

What research has been done to utilize the thermodynamic properties of a gas turbine engine and release particles through it as indicated in the Welsbach Patent?
Who did the research and what were the results?
Has the theory of particulate release through a gas turbine engine ever been applied, ......by who .....and what were the results?

Has a KC-135 (or similar acft) ever been involved in experiments in atmospheric sciences?
What were the experiments?
Does the MAS System fit through the cargo door of a KC-135?
Where are KC-135's petro 011 and 012 based and what role do they perform?
Are decommissioned commercial aircraft ever purchased by GOV. departments and used for atmospheric research?
Do persistent contrails show up on ATC radar and what are the reporting timelines and procedures for ATCer's when they do?
Is this public information and where can one see the data?

What research has been performed using Barium in relation to atmospheric sciences or communications?
Who did the experiments and what were the results?

Are Jepperson flight charts or similar aircraft navigation charts available to the general public to determine jet-airways?

Is it possible for the public to access upper sounding information to determine if persistent contrails they are seeing can be supported by the atmospheric conditions in which the contrails persist?

[letxa2000]

Are Jepperson flight charts or similar aircraft navigation charts available to the general public to determine jet-airways?

Yes. Even online (http://www.maptech.com/mapserver/index.cfm) free of charge.

[jayreynolds]

Deborah wrote:
carbon sequestration, ocean iron fertilization, localized ionization of ozone-polluted urban air, and cloud-seeding."

I notice you didn't mention "chemtrails" this time. :lol:

The ionization business is a scam.

[halva]

Everybody is very selective in what they respond to.

[foot_soldier]

"jayreynolds" thinks climate change is a "scam" (or "hoax" if you prefer) so naturally he's also going to deny the existence of the following GEO-ENGINEERING programs:

February 10, 1999
Mexico City Fights Smog by Electrifying Air
http://www.gsreport.com/articles/art000014.html

A new experiment in Mexico City is attempting to control rampant air pollution by injecting electricity into the air.

A brief "Earth Alert" report at Discovery Channel Online, dated January 8, 1999, states that Mexico City has begun an experiment in smog control that involves "controlled injection of free electrical charges in the atmosphere, through large antennas."

Mexico's capital is infamous for its suffocating air pollution, brought about in part by poorly regulated emissions of millions of cars, and made worse by the surrounding geography which tends to capture polluted air in a large "bowl" directly above the high-elevation city.

Now, according to a January 7 announcement by Mexico's environmental ministry, the new electrical technology seems able to substantially reduce ozone pollution in the air. A test last October resulted in the lowest air ozone levels since 1986, the ministry said. The technology is said to manipulate weather conditions, creating cleansing rains or winds to sweep away the pollution, the ministry said.

GSReport has learned that Mexican authorities have explored several novel approaches to such weather and smog control during the decade of the 1990s. Success in Mexico City may lead to similar experiments in other heavily polluted cities.

April 9, 2004
Cloud seeding to fight global warming approved for Australian ski region
http://www.enn.com/news/2004-04-09/s_22647.asp

SYDNEY, Australia — Cloud seeding is going to be used to keep Australia's Snowy Mountains true to their name: snowy. The New South Wales government said Thursday it's the best way to reverse decades of declining snowfall because of global warming.

Ground-based generators will blow hot air and scatter small quantities of silver iodide into passing clouds. Silver iodide helps water droplets in the clouds form ice crystals which in turn attract other droplets until they have enough weight to fall from the sky as snowflakes.

The project aims to keep ski fields viable, and melting snow will help fill rivers used for generating hydroelectricity and crop irrigation.

Authorities hope the A$20 million (US$15.3 million), five-year project will produce a 10 percent increase in snowfall on the mountains, 200 kilometers (125 miles) south of Canberra, extending the skiing season by five days each year.

Snowfall in the region has been decreasing by 1 percent annually for 50 years, the state government said.

However, any improvement may only be temporary. A recent United Nations report on global warming predicted that Australia's skiing areas could be permanently thawed by 2070.

Australia is relatively flat and warm with only a few mountain areas getting snow during the Southern Hemisphere winter from June through August. The Snowys are its highest mountain chain and includes its tallest peak, Mt. Kosciuszko, which stands at 2,228 meters (7,310 feet) meters.

U.S. experts will supervise the cloud-seeding plan across more than 1,000 square kilometers (620 square miles) of the Kosciuszko National Park, which includes the Snowys.

Some environmentalists oppose the plan and predict that once the clouds open up over the ski slopes, there won't be any water left for other areas. Much of the country's east has for the last two years been in the grip of Australia's worst drought in 100 years.

State Agriculture Minister Ian Macdonald defended the project, saying it would help avert an environmental tragedy.

"One of the benefits of this research project is the potential to mitigate the impact of climate change on our precious alpine environment," he said in a statement. "We want to make sure future generations can enjoy the Kosciuszko National Park as it is now."

[letxa2000]

halva: Everybody is very selective in what they respond to.

We don't all have time to answer a bunch of busy-work rhetorical questions. It is obvious the questions are really meant as statements anyway. The questions themselves are preloaded with assumptions that, just by asking them, cause the casual reader to think certain conclusions are already validated without having to provide any evidence.

Examples:

"What research has been performed using Aluminum Oxide in relation to atmospheric sciences? What were the results? Who has performed this research and where are they employed now?" By asking "Who has performed this research" suggests that the answer to the first question is "yes" even though no evidence has been provided.

"What were average atmospheric particulate values pre 1997 and what are they now?" Suggests that there is some significant change in atmospheric particulate values even though no evidence has been provided (and which particulates are not even mentioned).

"What changes have occurred to visibility parameters for aircraft in recent years, who initiated the changes and why?" By asking "Who initiated the changes" it is automatically suggested that the answer to the first question is "yes" even though no evidence has been provided.

"What research has been done to utilize the thermodynamic properties of a gas turbine engine and release particles through it as indicated in the Welsbach Patent? Who did the research and what were the results?" By asking "who did the research" it is automatically suggested that the answer to the first question is "yes" even though no evidence has been provided.

"Has the theory of particulate release through a gas turbine engine ever been applied, ......by who .....and what were the results?" By asking "by who" it is automatically suggested that the answer to the first question is "yes" even though no evidence has been provided.

"Has a KC-135 (or similar acft) ever been involved in experiments in atmospheric sciences?" The implication is that the the experiments in atmospheric sciences are a forgone conclusion.

"Do persistent contrails show up on ATC radar and what are the reporting timelines and procedures for ATCer's when they do?" Again, by asking "what are the reporting timelines" it is suggested that the answer to the first question is "yes" even though no evidence has been provided.

Questions such as these are not meant to be answered. It is a petty debate tactic used by someone that wants to try to convince a casual reader of a conclusion by simply asking the question. The only reason I answered the nav chart question is because when I was hitting page-down that question jumped out at me as I started to read the next message.

[airtankerpilot]

Like I wrote earlier, Petro is a calllsign most likely used by Washington Air National Guard. The numbers are most likely not fixed to specific aircraft, probably just assigned by operations and scheduling, according to the flight schedule.

I am sure all kinds of things can be put into a KC-135 cargo door. However that door cant just be opened up in flight, and the fuel tanks system, can also be used be the tanker for its own fuel. They cant just stick various chemicalls in the its tanks, without contaminating its own fuel supply, and its supply for future refueling

Are you saying you think the Washington Air National Guard is the next entity to be added to the list of conspirators?

There is not any evidence that any KC-135 is involved in "chemtrailing", and if you think about it, it is unlikely and would not fit into its use at all.

[jayreynolds]

]"jayreynolds" thinks climate change is a "scam" (or "hoax" if you prefer) so naturally he's also going to deny the existence of the following GEO-ENGINEERING programs:
February 10, 1999
Mexico City Fights Smog by Electrifying Air
http://www.gsreport.com/articles/art000014.html
A new experiment in Mexico City is attempting to control rampant air pollution by injecting electricity into the air.[/i]

Deborah isn't too familiar about the practices of making contracts with the Mexican government, the 'mordida', etc..

Deborah, the short answer is that in Mexico, along with many other countries south of the border, a little money or the promise of 'Una Mota'(kickback) can get you a contract when logic and reason dictate you shouldn't. For a few dolares more, you could probably get ozone levels improved to just about any levels you want to, or simply wait for good winds to conduct your experiment in conjunction with.

The company who did the ion/ozone scam in Mexico tried to do the same with a rather ignorant County Commissioner in Texas. They had convinced the council to fork out the pork with no guarantee of results at all. The contract totalling over $1 million dollars was a 'done deal', until some nosy facts crept into the debate.
http://www.rioweb.org/Archive/jss12-wbr120203.html

They got shot down in flames when real meteorologists and scientists got involved.
http://ams.confex.com/ams/33Broadcast/techprogram/paper_76974.htm

Damn near everybody in Webb County is now out to get Louis Bruni, from the Mayor of Laredo down to citizen's groups:
http://www.laredotexas.gov/citynews/04-02-04Letter_to_the_Editor.htm
http://www.cbs13kvtv.com/news/headlines/573812.html
http://www.laredosnews.com/archives/jan2004/local_02.htm

Doesn't Bruni remind you of our own little hitler, halva, whose real namne is Wayne Hall?
http://madmax.lmtonline.com/mainnewsarchives/021303/s1.htm

These jokers can't even put up a halfway decent webpage, what honest person entrusted with the people's money would ever give them $1.2 million dollars?

http://www.earthwisetech.com/

Come on Deborah, you can do better than that.

[letxa2000]

JayReynolds: eborah isn't too familiar about the practices of making contracts with the Mexican government, the 'mordida', etc.. Deborah, the short answer is that in Mexico, along with many other countries south of the border, a little money or the promise of 'Una Mota'(kickback) can get you a contract when logic and reason dictate you shouldn't. For a few dolares more, you could probably get ozone levels improved to just about any levels you want to, or simply wait for good winds to conduct your experiment in conjunction with.

FYI, I am an American but have lived in Mexico for the last 8 years. I'm not familiar with the details of the "Mexico City experiment" but I can confirm that what Jay says about how the Mexican goernment works is 100% correct. Money certainly changed hands in such a nebulous proposition and I'd be willing to bet the politicians in the Mexican government got more money out of it than even the company making the proposal did.

In the U.S., politicians make money by accepting campaign contributions from corporations. In Mexico, the politicians make money by just grabbing it right out of the treasury. A little atmospheric experiment just makes it that much easier to get their hands into the cookie jar.

[halva]

FYI, I am an American but have lived in Mexico for the last 8 years. I'm not familiar with the details of the "Mexico City experiment" but I can confirm that what Jay says about how the Mexican goernment works is 100% correct. Money certainly changed hands in such a nebulous proposition and I'd be willing to bet the politicians in the Mexican government got more money out of it than even the company making the proposal did.

In the U.S., politicians make money by accepting campaign contributions from corporations. In Mexico, the politicians make money by just grabbing it right out of the treasury. A little atmospheric experiment just makes it that much easier to get their hands into the cookie jar.

Is this seriously put forward as evidence that geoengineering is not happening?

Is the Snowy Mountains scheme also mere evidence of the corruption of the New South Wales government and therefore also not happening?

WH

[letxa2000]

halva: Is this seriously put forward as evidence that geoengineering is not happening?

No, it's put forth as confirmation that Reynolds is right about how the Mexican government works from someone that lives here.

[halva]

In other words it is irrelevant, or at best semi-relevant.

Why not take up my invitation to argue that

1) chemtrails and geoengineering are necessary

2) HAARP can be used for good purposes

This will be a better guarantee of your long-term usefulness as supporters of globalist elite political goals.

The chemtrails don't exist line is unsustainable and will be abandoned, and you will be abandoned along with it if you don't change your tune soon.

It would also be in the interests of improving the level of debate here, since we cannot ban you and are not going to be driven away by you.

[foot_soldier]

"halva" wrote:

Is this seriously put forward as evidence that geoengineering is not happening?

Is the Snowy Mountains scheme also mere evidence of the corruption of the New South Wales government and therefore also not happening?

You took the words right out of my mouth, halva.

I suppose this GEO-ENGINEERING project in progress is also mere evidence of "government corruption":

April 2004
Colorado Central Magazine
Random experiments will help Denver decide whether to continue cloud seeding
http://www.cozine.com/archive/cc2004/01220391.htm

And this:

January 28, 2004
New Use for Teapot Dome
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/28/tech/main596500.shtml

(AP) The government is trying to bury something at its Teapot Dome oil field again. Not secret oil leases, as it did during an infamous scandal of the 1920s, but carbon dioxide - lots of it.

In hopes of developing a process that could slow global warming, the Energy Department wants to inject the greenhouse gas underground into depleted oil reservoirs after converting it into a liquid form.

The Teapot Dome project, now in the planning stages, could be one of the world's largest test sites for the method. It would store CO2 from a natural gas processing plant more than 300 miles away beneath the 10,000-acre oil field in central Wyoming.

So-called carbon dioxide sequestration has been tested at smaller sites nationwide but never on such a large scale, said Vicki Stamp, a project manager for the Rocky Mountain Oilfield Testing Center, which manages Teapot Dome.

Used in enhanced oil recovery for decades, pumping carbon dioxide into underground reservoirs is being touted by the Bush administration as one of the most promising ways to counter the greenhouse effect.

"(Carbon dioxide) is the primary global greenhouse gas and it's growing rapidly," said Dag Nummedal, director of the University of Wyoming Institute for Energy Research. "During the last four or five years the international consensus is that the most rational, economic and environmentally benign way of getting CO2 out of the atmosphere is to store it underground."

"Right now, the best place to do this is in depleted oil and gas fields."

Teapot Dome - named for a nearby rock formation - is currently in its preliminary engineering and testing stages. Storage could begin by 2006 and last seven to 10 years, although Nummedal says managers "don't really know the upper limit yet."

When a reservoir is full, the pipeline is taken out and the hole sealed up.

"The objective is to keep it sealed underground forever, hundreds or thousands of years," Nummedal said.

The site is projected to store at least 1.6 million tons of carbon dioxide a year when fully operational. It could eventually lead to large-scale testing in other Rocky Mountain states, the Ohio River Valley, Texas Gulf Coast, California and other areas, Nummedal said.....cont.

And this:

Ocean Carbon Sequestration
http://esd.lbl.gov/CLIMATE/OCEAN/

And this:

April 22, 2004
Fertilizing the sea could combat global warming: Iron soaks up carbon in Southern Ocean trial
http://www.nature.com/nsu/040419/040419-7.html

Dumping iron sulphate in the ocean to cause plankton blooms might not seem an eco-friendly way to tackle global warming. But, according to the most extended trial of the technique so far, it could prove an effective one.

The outcome of the trial in the Southern Ocean, which surrounds Antarctica, was published in last week's Science. It suggests that each atom of iron added to the sea could pull between 10,000 and 100,000 atoms of carbon out of the atmosphere by encouraging plankton growth, which captures carbon and sinks it deep towards the ocean floor.

If successfully scaled up, such 'iron fertilization' of the sea could make a real dent in the high level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, which is causing global warming. Some researchers estimate that using the technique in the Southern Ocean alone could absorb 15% of carbon dioxide build-up. But ecologists caution that the technique could damage marine ecosystems in ways yet to be established.....cont.

[halva]

Footsoldier - this kind of informational geoengineering posting and link is very useful to me. Thank you.

[jayreynolds]

Well, Lexta, now they are down to complaints about cloud seeding.
Interesting how a little debunking sets them straight, eh?

I'll just let them argue their case with the proper authorities, in this case the Colorado Water Conservation Board, which issues permits, holds public hearings, requires surety bonds, environmental impact statements.

Plenty of room there for activism for genuine activists.

Here is even the website for the Colorado board which authorized the cloud seeding:
http://cwcb.state.co.us/weather_modification/permit_program.htm

Because I know that all Deborah REALLY wants to do is to "Piggy-Back" the 'chemtrails' hoax onto reality, I know that she has never actually even reviewed the laws of her own state of Arizona pertaining to weather modification.

The law resides under Title 45 of the Arizona state statutes, specifically Title 45, Chapter 9, Article 1, subsections 1601-1607.

Deborah has also failed to request copies of actual weather modification activities in her state for reveiew, she has not spoken at public hearings regarding weather modification, or at any opportunity where she could be confronted by real meteorologists, pilots, or atmospheric scientists.

In short, she is a fraud, a deceiver, a tail wagging the dog for a hoax she doesn't even really believe in anymore. It's all pretty sad, when you think about it.

[halva]

קטלני
גרינפיס חשף חומרים רעילים במוצרים של דיסני

יום ה' 15 באפריל 2004
ישראל /תל אביב


דו"ח בינלאומי של גרינפיס אשר פורסם היום חושף כי כימיקלים רבים, אשר עלולים לגרום לנזקים ארוכי טווח, נמצאים במוצרי הלבשה של חברת דיסני. מוצרי דיסני, הכוללים חולצות, פיג'מות, ותחתונים, נרכשו ב-19 מדינות ברחבי העולם ונבדקו ע"י המעבדה החיצונית "יורופינז" בדנמרק.


הדו"ח, הנקרא "בגדי ילדים רעילים מאת דיסני", חושף כי רוב הבגדים הכילו חומרים מסוכנים.
החומרים – הנמצאים בהדפסי הדמויות – הגיעו קרוב לוודאי עקב שיטות הדפסה הכוללות שימוש בPVC פלסטיסול. ילדים אשר לובשים בגדים אלה במשך תקופה ארוכה עלולים לספוג חומרים אלה דרך העור. בין החומרים נמצאו עופרת, המשפיעה על התפתחות מערכת העצבים ובחשיבה, וכן קדמיום, אלקינפנולים ואורגנוטינים אשר גורמים לסרטן הלימפה, לפגיעה בתפקוד המיני של גברים ולפגיעה בכליות.

"החדשות הטובות הן שניתן להדפיס חולצות צבעוניות ללא שימוש בחומרים מסוכנים" אומרת אזה קרוסווסקה, קמפיינרית של גרינפיס. המשווקים יכולים למלא תפקיד חשוב בהפחתת הסיכון לצרכנים. חולצה עם דמותו של 'טיגר' שנקנתה בדנמרק, בחנות Hennes & Mauritz לדוגמא, הכילה רמות אפסיות של חומרים מסוכנים, כיוון שבשנת 2002 החליטה חברת H&M להמיר את ה PVC בחומרים אלטרנטיביים בכל המוצרים הנמכרים ברשת.

ארגון גרינפיס קרא בשנת 2003 לחברת דיסני לקחת אחריות ולחדול משימוש ב PVC במוצריה. חברת דיסני הגיבה באומרה כי מוצריה עומדים בדרישות החוק, ולא פעלה מעבר לכך. כאשר חברת דיסני מחכירה את הלוגו והדמויות שלה, היא מעמידה שורה של דרישות קפדניות באשר לסוג הבדים והעיצוב. בנקל יכלה החברה גם לדרוש את השימוש בחומרים אשר אינם מסוכנים לציבור.

בשנת 2001 נחתמה אמנת שטוקהולם , למניעת השימוש במוצרים המכילים מזהמים אורגניים אמידים (Persistent Organic Pollutants-POP's) תוך מציאת תחליפים ידידותיים לבריאות ולסביבה. "אמנם האמנה כוללת רק 12 חומרים מסוכנים בשלב זה, אך עדיין האמנה מייצגת כיוון ראוי לתעשייה בת קיימא" אומר יניב מזרחי, מנהל מאבק הרעלים של גרינפיס בישראל. "בעוד שישראל מתיימרת להיות מדינה מערבית מתוקנת, אין בה ולו מכון אחד לניתור של דיוקסין – הPOP המסוכן מכולם, הגורם למקרים רבים של סרטן ולפגיעה קשה בנשים ועוּברים. אזרחי ישראל חשופים לכן לא רק לחומרים המסוכנים החבויים בדמויות דיסני, אלא גם לתוצרים של התעשייה הבלתי מנותרת בישראל" אמר מזרחי.


ליחצו כאן לקריאת הדו"ח המלא (באנגלית, בפורמט PDF) .



* הדו"ח סקר 19 מדינות שונות ברחבי העולם. מוצרים הנמכרים בישראל טרם נבדקו.

[halva]

สถานการณ์ล่าสุด


กรีนพีซร่วมมือเครือข่ายสากลฯ จัดกิจกรรมต้านโรงงานเผาขยะ
เร่งรัฐบาลหาทางออกที่ยั่งยืนในการกำจัดและลดปริมาณข ยะ
กรุงเทพฯ 16 กรกฏาคม 2546 -- กรีนพีซจัดงานแถลงข่าวแจ้งข้อมูลล่าสุดเรื่องผลกระทบ จากโรงงานเผาขยะ และการให้สัตยาบันแก่อนุสัญญาสต็อกโฮล์มของรัฐบ าลไทย เพื่อร่วมสนับสนุนกลุ่มองค์กรภาคประชาชนมากกว่า 200 กลุ่มจาก 62 ประเทศ ที่รวมตัวกันจัดกิจกรรมเร่งรัดรัฐบาลของแต่ละปร ะเทศ ในการหาทางออกที่ยั่งยืนของการกำจัดขยะ แทนโรงงานเผาขยะที่เป็นแหล่งกำเนิดแหล่งใหญ่ที่สุดขอ งมลพิษ ที่ให้ข้อมูลบิดเบือนแก่ประชาชน ว่าผลิตความร้อนและกระแสไฟฟ้า
แอน เลียวนาร์ด ผู้ประสานงาน เครือข่ายสากลเพื่อยุติเทคโนโลยีเผาขยะและส่งเสริมทา งเลือกในการจัดการของเสีย (GAIA -- Global Anti Incinerator Alliance) ประกอบด้วยสมาชิกจากกลุ่มองค์กรภาคเอกชนมากกว่า 375 กลุ่มจาก 77 ประเทศ ที่รวมตัวกันเพื่อระงับมลพิษและการสูญเปล่าจากการเผา ขยะ กล่าวว่า "เนื่องจากกระแสการต่อต้านโรงงานเผาขยะที่รุนแรงมากขึ ้น ทำให้กลุ่มผู้ได้รับผลประโยชน์จากโรงงานเผาขยะพยายาม หาทางออกด้วยวิธีต่างๆ เช่นการปรับรูปแบบและวิธีการของโรงงานเผาขยะ สร้างภาพว่ามีการใช้เทคโนโลยีใหม่มาทดแทนวิธีเดิมที่ ถูกปฎิเสธ เช่นการใช้พลังงานทดแทนอื่นๆ การใช้พลังงานเพื่อสิ่งแวดล้อม พลังความร้อนหรือก๊าซ"
จากการดำเนินงานอย่างต่อเนื่องทั่วโลกเพื่อต่อต้านโร งงานเผาขยะ ที่มีผลกระทบต่อสุขภาพประชากร สภาพแวดล้อม เศรษฐกิจ และสังคม ส่งผลให้การรณรงค์ปฎิบัติการยุติโรงงานเผาขยะทั่วโลก ครั้งที่ 2 ได้รับความสนใจและได้รับความร่วมมือจากองค์กรต่ างๆ ทั่วโลกมากยิ่งขึ้น โดยการดำเนินงานเหล่านี้ นำทีมโดยเครือข่ายฯ GAIA ที่ดำเนินการในวันต่อต้านโรงงานเผาขยะปีละครั้ง เพื่อชี้แจงผลกระทบของการเผาขยะ และมลพิษที่เกิดจากการจัดการขยะ ควบคู่ไปกับการส่งเสริมการจัดการที่ปลอดภัยและยั่งยื นในการกำจัดและลดปริมาณขยะ
ปัจจุบัน เครือข่ายฯ GAIA ได้นำเสนอรายงานเรื่อง "Waste Incineration: A Dying Technology" ที่ได้อธิบายว่า โรงงานเผาขยะเป็นวิธีการที่ล้าสมัยและไม่ยั่งยื น ถือเป็นฆาตกรในคราบเทคโนโลยี โดยมีเหตุผลรับรอง 3 ประการ ประการแรกในแง่ของเทคโนโลยีในการจัดการขยะ วิธีนี้นอกจากจะปราศจากความน่าเชื่อถือแล้ว ยังก่อให้เกิดของเสียต่อเนื่องขึ้น ซึ่งมีอันตรายมากกว่าของเสียดั้งเดิม ประการที่สองในแง่ของพลังงานที่ได้จากการเผาขยะ พลังงานที่ได้เป็นพลังงานไร้ประสิทธิภาพและเกิดขึ้นจ ากของเสีย ประการที่สามในแง่การพัฒนาเศรษฐกิจแล้ว ถือเป็นหายนะก็ว่าได้ เพราะโรงงานเผาขยะทำให้ชุมชนต้องเสียงบประมาณจำนวนมา ก แต่ผลที่ได้รับคือความหวาดวิตกของคนในชุมชนและงานที่ อันตราย
กรีนพีซร่วมมือเครือข่ายสากลฯ จัดกิจกรรมต้านโรงงานเผาขยะ / 2
นายธารา บัวคำศรี ผู้ประสานงานรณรงค์ด้านสารพิษ กรีนพีซ กล่าวเพิ่มเติมว่า "ทุกวันนี้ พลังมวลชนได้แสดงให้เห็นชัดเจนว่า พวกเขาต่อต้านและปฎิเสธโรงงานเผาขยะ รวมทั้งวิธีการกำจัดของเสียอื่นๆ ที่สร้างมลพิษ ยิ่งกว่านั้น การต่อต้านพลังงานนิวเคลียร์ที่อ่อนกระแสลงไป อาจทำให้ไม่มีเทคโนโลยีใดที่จะทำให้ประชากรโลกลุกฮือ ขึ้นต่อต้านได้มากเท่ากับโรงงานเผาขยะและวิธีกำจัดขอ งเสียที่สร้างมลพิษ รัฐบาลประเทศต่างๆ จึงต้องคำนึงถึงการเลือกใช้เทคโนโลยีที่ปลอดภัยและยั ่งยืนมากยิ่งขึ้น"
การต่อต้านจากสาธารณชนส่งผลเสียต่อผู้ได้รับประโยชน์ จากโรงงานเผาขยะไปทั่วโลก ใน 15 ปีที่ผ่านมา การเคลื่อนไหวของประชาชนทั่วไป ส่งผลให้มีการยกเลิกโครงการก่อสร้างโรงงานเผาขยะในสห รัฐอเมริกาไปมากกว่า 300 โรงงาน ในญี่ปุ่น พลังมวลชนส่งผลให้มีการปิดโรงงานเผาขยะไปมากกว่ า 500 แห่งในระยะเวลาสองสามปี และล่าสุดรัฐบาลใน 15 ประเทศได้ประกาศห้ามการก่อสร้างโรงงานเผาขยะในบางส่ว นของประเทศ ในขณะที่ ฟิลิปปินส์ได้ประกาศห้ามอย่างเด็ดขาด
การจัดแถลงข่าวของกรีนพีซในวันนี้ ดำเนินการพร้อมกับช่วงที่มีการประชุมตัวแทนจากรัฐบาล ประเทศต่างๆ เรื่อง "อนุสัญญาสต็อกโฮล์ม" ว่าด้วยการกำจัดมลพิษตกค้าง (POPs) ที่กรุงเจนีวา สวิตเซอร์แลนด์ ซึ่งแนวโน้มของการประชุมครั้งนี้ได้เน้นไปที่ การกำจัดสารพิษสองชนิดที่เกิดขึ้นจากโรงงานเผาขยะให้ หมดไปจากสภาพแวดล้อม ได้แก่ ไดออกซิน และ ฟิวแรน ซึ่งเป็นสารพิษที่ทำลายยากที่สุดและทำให้เป็นโรคมะเร ็ง
การประชุมได้ระบุชัดเจนว่า โรงงานเผาขยะทุกประเภท รวมทั้งเตาเผาขยะสารพิษ เป็นผู้ก่อให้เกิดและปล่อยสารพิษสามชนิดสู่สิ่งแวดล้ อม ได้แก่ ไดออกซิน ฟิวแรน และ โพลิคลอริเนต ไบเพนนิล และได้ให้คำแนะนำเกี่ยวกับการใช้เทคโนโลยีอื่นในการก ำจัดขยะ เพื่อยุติการก่อให้เกิดมลพิษแก่สิ่งแวดล้อม ไม่ว่าจะโดยตั้งใจหรือไม่ก็ตาม ซึ่งองค์การสหประชาชาติด้านสิ่งแวดล้อม (The United Nations Environment Program - UNEP) ได้รายงานว่า ร้อยละ 69 ของปริมาณ ไดออกซิน ทั้งหมดในสภาพแวดล้อม เกิดจากโรงงานเผาขยะ
ผู้สนใจทุกท่านสามารถดึงรายงานเรื่อง "Waste Incineration: A Dying Technology" ได้จาก www.no-burn.org โดยไม่เสียค่าใช้จ่ายใดๆ (รายงานนี้จัดทำให้เครือข่าย GAIA โดยนีล ทันกรี Formerly of Essential Action USA ประกอบด้วยรายละเอียดผลเสียของโรงงานเผาขยะ และการรวมพลังทั่วโลกในการต่อต้านการเผาขยะ)

[jayreynolds]

Ah, so I must have hit a nerve with my comments to make halva resort again to obfuscation by spam. Doesn't do much for your credibility, Deborah, when your buddies fall to that sort of tactic.

Regarding the carbon sequestration, you ignorant chemmies just haven't a clue about the oil and gas business, do you? The link Deborah gave us is to yet another boondoggle, a pork-barrel project of no effect at all against your CO2 boogey-man.

Here are the facts. Anadarko produces natural gas, which comes out of the ground contaminated with various substances unsutable for use or transmision through pipelines such as hydrogen sulfide, water and CO2.

After going through the trouble of cleaning up their gas, they have "waste" CO2 already in a pipeline, but it is now referred to as a "byproduct". For decades, this byproduct CO2 has been repumped back down into old oil wells in which production has declined. This repressurizes the oil well and allows EVEN MORE oil to be extracted from the old well. These CO2 pipelines crisscross the country working to extract every last drop of oil they can, even though much of the oil in tens of thousands of older wells is still there underground, unrecoverable by present technology.

So, in the case Deborah refers us to, the CO2 wasn't CO2 which was produced from BURNING fuel, it was simply being pumped out of the ground as a byproduct of producing natural gas, and then being repumped back underground where it came from.

A boondoggle for Anadarko, which will be paid significantly higher prices, it seems, than what it normally would have taken in from enhanced oil recovery.

Certainly no environmental gain or value for "Geoengineering" at all, since this CO2 wasn't from consumption of fuel, and wouldn't have been released anyways. This CO2 is merely being taken out of the ground and being pumped back down, and oil had to be burned to create the energy for all this pumping!

You chemmies can't seem to get anything right, can you?
Ignorant of science, law, business, and definitely short on common sense.
Like I said, I've grown turnips with more brains than the average chemmie, for even a turnip seeks to rise upwards and hold it's face to the light, chemmies wallow in the dark, secure in ignorance, holding onto their "precious" hoax like hideous Gollums.

[jayreynolds]

Today's highlights-
Laughing at chemmies:
http://b25.ezboard.com/fcontrailsandchemtrails22884frm1.showMessage?topic ID=2359.topic

Wayne admits chemmies afflicted by cognitive dissonance when debunked but doesn't explain what it is or why they feel they must avoid it, he simply recommends banning:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000139.html#7

What halva doesn't want you to know:
http://www.dmu.ac.uk/~jamesa/learning/dissonance.htm
"if learning something has been difficult, uncomfortable, or even humiliating enough, people are not likely to admit that the content of what has been learned is not valuable. To do so would be to admit that one has been "had", or "conned"."

Told you so.

[letxa2000]

halva: In other words it is irrelevant, or at best semi-relevant.

It confirms the basis for the rest of what Jay Reynolds wrote in the post in question. If he was lying about how the Mexican government works then the rest of his conclusion might have been questionable. But he's right on the money regarding the Mexican government--and he provided links regarding the company in question and their attempted activity in Texas. All in all, looks like Jay is probably right.

As for irrelevant, it is no more irrelevant than your spamming runs that you've decided to engage in because you have nothing valuable to contribute. That is to say nothing of the even more irrelevant spamming runs written in languages that no-one can understand.


Why not take up my invitation to argue that 1) chemtrails and geoengineering are necessary 2) HAARP can be used for good purposes

Because I've seen no evidence that chemtrails even exist, so how or why am I going to argue they're necessary? As for HAARP, if you consider creating ionospheric mirrors for the research of propagation of radio signals a good thing, sure, it's a good research tool.


The chemtrails don't exist line is unsustainable and will be abandoned, and you will be abandoned along with it if you don't change your tune soon.

I guess that's a risk I'll just have to take. :)

[halva]

العمانية: تلقى حضرة صاحب الجلالة السلطان قابوس بن سعيد المعظم ــ يحفظه الله ويرعاه ــ رسالة خطية من فخامة الرئيس زين العابدين بن علي رئيس الجمهورية التونسية.
تسلم الرسالة صاحب السمو السيد فهد بن محمود آل سعيد نائب رئيس الوزراء لشؤون مجلس الوزراء وذلك خلال استقبال سموه بمكتبه أمس معالي الهادي مهني وزير الداخلية والتنمية المحلية مبعوث الرئيس التونسي، حيث نقل معاليه تحيات فخامة الرئيس التونسي وتمنياته الطيبة لجلالة عاهل البلاد المفدى وحكومته والشعب العماني.
تناول الحديث خلال المقابلة العلاقات الثنائية القائمة بين البلدين الشقيقين وسبل تعزيز وتطوير آفاق التعاون بينهما في شتى المجالات إضافة إلى استعراض مجمل الأوضاع على الساحة الإقليمية والاستعدادات الخاصة بعقد مؤتمر القمة العربية في مايو المقبل بالجمهورية التونسية في إطار الجهود المبذولة من كافة الأطراف لإنجاح أعمالها.
من جانبه أبلغ صاحب السمو السيد فهد بن محمود آل سعيد معالي الوزير الضيف تحيات حضرة صاحب الجلالة السلطان المعظم ــ أبقاه الله ــ لفخامة الرئيس التونسي وتمنيات جلالته الأخوية لفخامته بدوام التوفيق وللشعب التونسي الشقيق بالتقدم والازدهار. حضر المقابلة سعادة خالد الزيتوني سفير الجمهورية التونسية المعتمد لدى السلطنة. وقد غادر معالي الضيف البلاد مساء أمس حيث كان في وداعه لدى مغادرته سعادة السيد محمد بن سلطان البوسعيدي وكيل وزارة الداخلية وسعادة السفير التونسي المعتمد لدى السلطنة.

[halva]

If any other non-debunker thinks that something different from spam is an appropriate response, they will post it and I will stop spamming.

Otherwise I will keep spamming forever, or until you go away.

[JohnnyMo]

You certainly are a sharp guy. So why do you spend so much energy time and thinking power combatting the likes of Halva? His appeal is definitely limited to those. Who share his inclination to paranoia and conspiracy theories.

People like that are rarely ever swayed by facts and figures. The only truth that they accept is the truth that springs from within their own minds constructed from the bits and pieces of ideas and information that agree with the feelings that drive their conclusions.

By concentrating on Halva so much. You arre giving him one of the things he craves, attention. Ignore him like 95% of people do, and he will eventually fade to a nice barely noticeable presence.

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Wayne, instead of spamming, let's try to define what you really believe about your supposed "chemtrails". Here are some questions you really need to CLOSELY READ. They will definitely be asked sooner or later, and

YOU HAD BETTER BE ABLE TO COME UP WITH GOOD ANSWERS!!!

Don't put off answering these any longer or else some day you'll get caught stuttering and stammering uh.......um...... er.....uh-oh.

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. Is it possible that you are completely mistaken, and "chemtrails" are simply ordinary contrails?

[halva]

สถานการณ์ล่าสุด

กรีนพีซร่วมมือเครือข่ายสากลฯ จัดกิจกรรมต้านโรงงานเผาขยะ
เร่งรัฐบาลหาทางออกที่ยั่งยืนในการกำจัดและลดปริมาณข ยะ
กรุงเทพฯ 16 กรกฏาคม 2546 -- กรีนพีซจัดงานแถลงข่าวแจ้งข้อมูลล่าสุดเรื่องผลกระทบ จากโรงงานเผาขยะ และการให้สัตยาบันแก่อนุสัญญาสต็อกโฮล์มของรัฐบ าลไทย เพื่อร่วมสนับสนุนกลุ่มองค์กรภาคประชาชนมากกว่า 200 กลุ่มจาก 62 ประเทศ ที่รวมตัวกันจัดกิจกรรมเร่งรัดรัฐบาลของแต่ละปร ะเทศ ในการหาทางออกที่ยั่งยืนของการกำจัดขยะ แทนโรงงานเผาขยะที่เป็นแหล่งกำเนิดแหล่งใหญ่ที่สุดขอ งมลพิษ ที่ให้ข้อมูลบิดเบือนแก่ประชาชน ว่าผลิตความร้อนและกระแสไฟฟ้า
แอน เลียวนาร์ด ผู้ประสานงาน เครือข่ายสากลเพื่อยุติเทคโนโลยีเผาขยะและส่งเสริมทา งเลือกในการจัดการของเสีย (GAIA -- Global Anti Incinerator Alliance) ประกอบด้วยสมาชิกจากกลุ่มองค์กรภาคเอกชนมากกว่า 375 กลุ่มจาก 77 ประเทศ ที่รวมตัวกันเพื่อระงับมลพิษและการสูญเปล่าจากการเผา ขยะ กล่าวว่า "เนื่องจากกระแสการต่อต้านโรงงานเผาขยะที่รุนแรงมากขึ ้น ทำให้กลุ่มผู้ได้รับผลประโยชน์จากโรงงานเผาขยะพยายาม หาทางออกด้วยวิธีต่างๆ เช่นการปรับรูปแบบและวิธีการของโรงงานเผาขยะ สร้างภาพว่ามีการใช้เทคโนโลยีใหม่มาทดแทนวิธีเดิมที่ ถูกปฎิเสธ เช่นการใช้พลังงานทดแทนอื่นๆ การใช้พลังงานเพื่อสิ่งแวดล้อม พลังความร้อนหรือก๊าซ"
จากการดำเนินงานอย่างต่อเนื่องทั่วโลกเพื่อต่อต้านโร งงานเผาขยะ ที่มีผลกระทบต่อสุขภาพประชากร สภาพแวดล้อม เศรษฐกิจ และสังคม ส่งผลให้การรณรงค์ปฎิบัติการยุติโรงงานเผาขยะทั่วโลก ครั้งที่ 2 ได้รับความสนใจและได้รับความร่วมมือจากองค์กรต่ างๆ ทั่วโลกมากยิ่งขึ้น โดยการดำเนินงานเหล่านี้ นำทีมโดยเครือข่ายฯ GAIA ที่ดำเนินการในวันต่อต้านโรงงานเผาขยะปีละครั้ง เพื่อชี้แจงผลกระทบของการเผาขยะ และมลพิษที่เกิดจากการจัดการขยะ ควบคู่ไปกับการส่งเสริมการจัดการที่ปลอดภัยและยั่งยื นในการกำจัดและลดปริมาณขยะ
ปัจจุบัน เครือข่ายฯ GAIA ได้นำเสนอรายงานเรื่อง "Waste Incineration: A Dying Technology" ที่ได้อธิบายว่า โรงงานเผาขยะเป็นวิธีการที่ล้าสมัยและไม่ยั่งยื น ถือเป็นฆาตกรในคราบเทคโนโลยี โดยมีเหตุผลรับรอง 3 ประการ ประการแรกในแง่ของเทคโนโลยีในการจัดการขยะ วิธีนี้นอกจากจะปราศจากความน่าเชื่อถือแล้ว ยังก่อให้เกิดของเสียต่อเนื่องขึ้น ซึ่งมีอันตรายมากกว่าของเสียดั้งเดิม ประการที่สองในแง่ของพลังงานที่ได้จากการเผาขยะ พลังงานที่ได้เป็นพลังงานไร้ประสิทธิภาพและเกิดขึ้นจ ากของเสีย ประการที่สามในแง่การพัฒนาเศรษฐกิจแล้ว ถือเป็นหายนะก็ว่าได้ เพราะโรงงานเผาขยะทำให้ชุมชนต้องเสียงบประมาณจำนวนมา ก แต่ผลที่ได้รับคือความหวาดวิตกของคนในชุมชนและงานที่ อันตราย
กรีนพีซร่วมมือเครือข่ายสากลฯ จัดกิจกรรมต้านโรงงานเผาขยะ / 2
นายธารา บัวคำศรี ผู้ประสานงานรณรงค์ด้านสารพิษ กรีนพีซ กล่าวเพิ่มเติมว่า "ทุกวันนี้ พลังมวลชนได้แสดงให้เห็นชัดเจนว่า พวกเขาต่อต้านและปฎิเสธโรงงานเผาขยะ รวมทั้งวิธีการกำจัดของเสียอื่นๆ ที่สร้างมลพิษ ยิ่งกว่านั้น การต่อต้านพลังงานนิวเคลียร์ที่อ่อนกระแสลงไป อาจทำให้ไม่มีเทคโนโลยีใดที่จะทำให้ประชากรโลกลุกฮือ ขึ้นต่อต้านได้มากเท่ากับโรงงานเผาขยะและวิธีกำจัดขอ งเสียที่สร้างมลพิษ รัฐบาลประเทศต่างๆ จึงต้องคำนึงถึงการเลือกใช้เทคโนโลยีที่ปลอดภัยและยั ่งยืนมากยิ่งขึ้น"
การต่อต้านจากสาธารณชนส่งผลเสียต่อผู้ได้รับประโยชน์ จากโรงงานเผาขยะไปทั่วโลก ใน 15 ปีที่ผ่านมา การเคลื่อนไหวของประชาชนทั่วไป ส่งผลให้มีการยกเลิกโครงการก่อสร้างโรงงานเผาขยะในสห รัฐอเมริกาไปมากกว่า 300 โรงงาน ในญี่ปุ่น พลังมวลชนส่งผลให้มีการปิดโรงงานเผาขยะไปมากกว่ า 500 แห่งในระยะเวลาสองสามปี และล่าสุดรัฐบาลใน 15 ประเทศได้ประกาศห้ามการก่อสร้างโรงงานเผาขยะในบางส่ว นของประเทศ ในขณะที่ ฟิลิปปินส์ได้ประกาศห้ามอย่างเด็ดขาด
การจัดแถลงข่าวของกรีนพีซในวันนี้ ดำเนินการพร้อมกับช่วงที่มีการประชุมตัวแทนจากรัฐบาล ประเทศต่างๆ เรื่อง "อนุสัญญาสต็อกโฮล์ม" ว่าด้วยการกำจัดมลพิษตกค้าง (POPs) ที่กรุงเจนีวา สวิตเซอร์แลนด์ ซึ่งแนวโน้มของการประชุมครั้งนี้ได้เน้นไปที่ การกำจัดสารพิษสองชนิดที่เกิดขึ้นจากโรงงานเผาขยะให้ หมดไปจากสภาพแวดล้อม ได้แก่ ไดออกซิน และ ฟิวแรน ซึ่งเป็นสารพิษที่ทำลายยากที่สุดและทำให้เป็นโรคมะเร ็ง
การประชุมได้ระบุชัดเจนว่า โรงงานเผาขยะทุกประเภท รวมทั้งเตาเผาขยะสารพิษ เป็นผู้ก่อให้เกิดและปล่อยสารพิษสามชนิดสู่สิ่งแวดล้ อม ได้แก่ ไดออกซิน ฟิวแรน และ โพลิคลอริเนต ไบเพนนิล และได้ให้คำแนะนำเกี่ยวกับการใช้เทคโนโลยีอื่นในการก ำจัดขยะ เพื่อยุติการก่อให้เกิดมลพิษแก่สิ่งแวดล้อม ไม่ว่าจะโดยตั้งใจหรือไม่ก็ตาม ซึ่งองค์การสหประชาชาติด้านสิ่งแวดล้อม (The United Nations Environment Program - UNEP) ได้รายงานว่า ร้อยละ 69 ของปริมาณ ไดออกซิน ทั้งหมดในสภาพแวดล้อม เกิดจากโรงงานเผาขยะ
ผู้สนใจทุกท่านสามารถดึงรายงานเรื่อง "Waste Incineration: A Dying Technology" ได้จาก www.no-burn.org โดยไม่เสียค่าใช้จ่ายใดๆ (รายงานนี้จัดทำให้เครือข่าย GAIA โดยนีล ทันกรี Formerly of Essential Action USA ประกอบด้วยรายละเอียดผลเสียของโรงงานเผาขยะ และการรวมพลังทั่วโลกในการต่อต้านการเผาขยะ)

[jayreynolds]

You certainly are a sharp guy. So why do you spend so much energy time and thinking power combatting the likes of Halva? His appeal is definitely limited to those. Who share his inclination to paranoia and conspiracy theories.

People like that are rarely ever swayed by facts and figures. The only truth that they accept is the truth that springs from within their own minds constructed from the bits and pieces of ideas and information that agree with the feelings that drive their conclusions.

By concentrating on Halva so much. You arre giving him one of the things he craves, attention. Ignore him like 95% of people do, and he will eventually fade to a nice barely noticeable presence.

The idea that halva consumes much of my time at all is wrong. I spend much more time thinking about private bodily functions each day than I ever do about halva. My intended audience, of course, is not the miniscule 1% of confirmed lifetime cult members, but the other 99% of newbies who sign up but get the drift and quickly leave. Take a look at the membership rolls and note how rapidly they depart, most without even
posting once.

Current statistics show 1998 members, but only 33 active.

Look at any letter of the alphabet:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/cgi-bin/memberlist.cgi

[halva]

สถานการณ์ล่าสุด


กรีนพีซร่วมมือเครือข่ายสากลฯ จัดกิจกรรมต้านโรงงานเผาขยะ
เร่งรัฐบาลหาทางออกที่ยั่งยืนในการกำจัดและลดปริมาณข ยะ
กรุงเทพฯ 16 กรกฏาคม 2546 -- กรีนพีซจัดงานแถลงข่าวแจ้งข้อมูลล่าสุดเรื่องผลกระทบ จากโรงงานเผาขยะ และการให้สัตยาบันแก่อนุสัญญาสต็อกโฮล์มของรัฐบ าลไทย เพื่อร่วมสนับสนุนกลุ่มองค์กรภาคประชาชนมากกว่า 200 กลุ่มจาก 62 ประเทศ ที่รวมตัวกันจัดกิจกรรมเร่งรัดรัฐบาลของแต่ละปร ะเทศ ในการหาทางออกที่ยั่งยืนของการกำจัดขยะ แทนโรงงานเผาขยะที่เป็นแหล่งกำเนิดแหล่งใหญ่ที่สุดขอ งมลพิษ ที่ให้ข้อมูลบิดเบือนแก่ประชาชน ว่าผลิตความร้อนและกระแสไฟฟ้า
แอน เลียวนาร์ด ผู้ประสานงาน เครือข่ายสากลเพื่อยุติเทคโนโลยีเผาขยะและส่งเสริมทา งเลือกในการจัดการของเสีย (GAIA -- Global Anti Incinerator Alliance) ประกอบด้วยสมาชิกจากกลุ่มองค์กรภาคเอกชนมากกว่า 375 กลุ่มจาก 77 ประเทศ ที่รวมตัวกันเพื่อระงับมลพิษและการสูญเปล่าจากการเผา ขยะ กล่าวว่า "เนื่องจากกระแสการต่อต้านโรงงานเผาขยะที่รุนแรงมากขึ ้น ทำให้กลุ่มผู้ได้รับผลประโยชน์จากโรงงานเผาขยะพยายาม หาทางออกด้วยวิธีต่างๆ เช่นการปรับรูปแบบและวิธีการของโรงงานเผาขยะ สร้างภาพว่ามีการใช้เทคโนโลยีใหม่มาทดแทนวิธีเดิมที่ ถูกปฎิเสธ เช่นการใช้พลังงานทดแทนอื่นๆ การใช้พลังงานเพื่อสิ่งแวดล้อม พลังความร้อนหรือก๊าซ"
จากการดำเนินงานอย่างต่อเนื่องทั่วโลกเพื่อต่อต้านโร งงานเผาขยะ ที่มีผลกระทบต่อสุขภาพประชากร สภาพแวดล้อม เศรษฐกิจ และสังคม ส่งผลให้การรณรงค์ปฎิบัติการยุติโรงงานเผาขยะทั่วโลก ครั้งที่ 2 ได้รับความสนใจและได้รับความร่วมมือจากองค์กรต่ างๆ ทั่วโลกมากยิ่งขึ้น โดยการดำเนินงานเหล่านี้ นำทีมโดยเครือข่ายฯ GAIA ที่ดำเนินการในวันต่อต้านโรงงานเผาขยะปีละครั้ง เพื่อชี้แจงผลกระทบของการเผาขยะ และมลพิษที่เกิดจากการจัดการขยะ ควบคู่ไปกับการส่งเสริมการจัดการที่ปลอดภัยและยั่งยื นในการกำจัดและลดปริมาณขยะ
ปัจจุบัน เครือข่ายฯ GAIA ได้นำเสนอรายงานเรื่อง "Waste Incineration: A Dying Technology" ที่ได้อธิบายว่า โรงงานเผาขยะเป็นวิธีการที่ล้าสมัยและไม่ยั่งยื น ถือเป็นฆาตกรในคราบเทคโนโลยี โดยมีเหตุผลรับรอง 3 ประการ ประการแรกในแง่ของเทคโนโลยีในการจัดการขยะ วิธีนี้นอกจากจะปราศจากความน่าเชื่อถือแล้ว ยังก่อให้เกิดของเสียต่อเนื่องขึ้น ซึ่งมีอันตรายมากกว่าของเสียดั้งเดิม ประการที่สองในแง่ของพลังงานที่ได้จากการเผาขยะ พลังงานที่ได้เป็นพลังงานไร้ประสิทธิภาพและเกิดขึ้นจ ากของเสีย ประการที่สามในแง่การพัฒนาเศรษฐกิจแล้ว ถือเป็นหายนะก็ว่าได้ เพราะโรงงานเผาขยะทำให้ชุมชนต้องเสียงบประมาณจำนวนมา ก แต่ผลที่ได้รับคือความหวาดวิตกของคนในชุมชนและงานที่ อันตราย
กรีนพีซร่วมมือเครือข่ายสากลฯ จัดกิจกรรมต้านโรงงานเผาขยะ / 2
นายธารา บัวคำศรี ผู้ประสานงานรณรงค์ด้านสารพิษ กรีนพีซ กล่าวเพิ่มเติมว่า "ทุกวันนี้ พลังมวลชนได้แสดงให้เห็นชัดเจนว่า พวกเขาต่อต้านและปฎิเสธโรงงานเผาขยะ รวมทั้งวิธีการกำจัดของเสียอื่นๆ ที่สร้างมลพิษ ยิ่งกว่านั้น การต่อต้านพลังงานนิวเคลียร์ที่อ่อนกระแสลงไป อาจทำให้ไม่มีเทคโนโลยีใดที่จะทำให้ประชากรโลกลุกฮือ ขึ้นต่อต้านได้มากเท่ากับโรงงานเผาขยะและวิธีกำจัดขอ งเสียที่สร้างมลพิษ รัฐบาลประเทศต่างๆ จึงต้องคำนึงถึงการเลือกใช้เทคโนโลยีที่ปลอดภัยและยั ่งยืนมากยิ่งขึ้น"
การต่อต้านจากสาธารณชนส่งผลเสียต่อผู้ได้รับประโยชน์ จากโรงงานเผาขยะไปทั่วโลก ใน 15 ปีที่ผ่านมา การเคลื่อนไหวของประชาชนทั่วไป ส่งผลให้มีการยกเลิกโครงการก่อสร้างโรงงานเผาขยะในสห รัฐอเมริกาไปมากกว่า 300 โรงงาน ในญี่ปุ่น พลังมวลชนส่งผลให้มีการปิดโรงงานเผาขยะไปมากกว่ า 500 แห่งในระยะเวลาสองสามปี และล่าสุดรัฐบาลใน 15 ประเทศได้ประกาศห้ามการก่อสร้างโรงงานเผาขยะในบางส่ว นของประเทศ ในขณะที่ ฟิลิปปินส์ได้ประกาศห้ามอย่างเด็ดขาด
การจัดแถลงข่าวของกรีนพีซในวันนี้ ดำเนินการพร้อมกับช่วงที่มีการประชุมตัวแทนจากรัฐบาล ประเทศต่างๆ เรื่อง "อนุสัญญาสต็อกโฮล์ม" ว่าด้วยการกำจัดมลพิษตกค้าง (POPs) ที่กรุงเจนีวา สวิตเซอร์แลนด์ ซึ่งแนวโน้มของการประชุมครั้งนี้ได้เน้นไปที่ การกำจัดสารพิษสองชนิดที่เกิดขึ้นจากโรงงานเผาขยะให้ หมดไปจากสภาพแวดล้อม ได้แก่ ไดออกซิน และ ฟิวแรน ซึ่งเป็นสารพิษที่ทำลายยากที่สุดและทำให้เป็นโรคมะเร ็ง
การประชุมได้ระบุชัดเจนว่า โรงงานเผาขยะทุกประเภท รวมทั้งเตาเผาขยะสารพิษ เป็นผู้ก่อให้เกิดและปล่อยสารพิษสามชนิดสู่สิ่งแวดล้ อม ได้แก่ ไดออกซิน ฟิวแรน และ โพลิคลอริเนต ไบเพนนิล และได้ให้คำแนะนำเกี่ยวกับการใช้เทคโนโลยีอื่นในการก ำจัดขยะ เพื่อยุติการก่อให้เกิดมลพิษแก่สิ่งแวดล้อม ไม่ว่าจะโดยตั้งใจหรือไม่ก็ตาม ซึ่งองค์การสหประชาชาติด้านสิ่งแวดล้อม (The United Nations Environment Program - UNEP) ได้รายงานว่า ร้อยละ 69 ของปริมาณ ไดออกซิน ทั้งหมดในสภาพแวดล้อม เกิดจากโรงงานเผาขยะ
ผู้สนใจทุกท่านสามารถดึงรายงานเรื่อง "Waste Incineration: A Dying Technology" ได้จาก www.no-burn.org โดยไม่เสียค่าใช้จ่ายใดๆ (รายงานนี้จัดทำให้เครือข่าย GAIA โดยนีล ทันกรี Formerly of Essential Action USA ประกอบด้วยรายละเอียดผลเสียของโรงงานเผาขยะ และการรวมพลังทั่วโลกในการต่อต้านการเผาขยะ)

[JohnnyMo]

The idea that halva consumes much of my time at all is wrong. I spend much more time thinking about private bodily functions each day than I ever do about halva. My intended audience, of course, is not the miniscule 1% of confirmed lifetime cult members, but the other 99% of newbies who sign up but get the drift and quickly leave. Take a look at the membership rolls and note how rapidly they depart, most without even posting once.


Jay,if you think of bodily functions more than halva. Then you must be constipated (JUST TEASING)

Seriously, it may startle to you learn that most people an this type of ongoing thread extremely tedious and boring.

That is one main reason. Why so many newbies come and go so quickly. It is extremely disheartening to come to a site and find out the major discussion is this???

I'll stick around for a bit. To see if some other interesting, non-obsessive posts pop up.

I see no point in replying to a person like halva or making even the infinitesimal effort to disprove him. Few people are fooled or mislead by halva. They tune him out and move on.

Those who do end up believeing what he says. Will do so, regardless of what write. That is the nature of the cult mind. Facts are not relevant. Your effort to counter his nonsense is for naught really.

I'll let you have the last word if you have one.

I just wanted to make a point about how such obsessive posting pro or con chases away 99.99% of posters who would otherwise be interested. If I reply. I will be guilty too.

If you want to attract Adrianna fans, then talk about her column and book.
That is what people originally come here for. I know I did.

[lynn george]

Reynolds, Bonehead and airtankerpilot are clearly promoting an agenda of disinformation, denying a reality that is so obvious to anyone taking the time to observe.

"airtankerpilot" wrote:



.....Planes do not make a sky full of cirrus.....


contradicted by Reynolds who responds to a William Thomas claim,


"-Normal contrails dissipate less than one minute after formation."
FALSE

So why don't you bunkers get your story straight...and while you're at it come to grips with the reality of aircraft emissions:



Source: http://www.skyhighway.com/~chemtrails/


Hi Sore Throat,

Yes, your mini film clip there does an excellent job showing what millions worldwide in many countries are seeing: Aerosols being released from planes- ususally it seems in conjunction with military type maneuvers- that can spread out within hours to completely obscure the sky and 'Turn down the sun'. I haven't posted here in a awhile and it is amusing to see the level of frustration REynolds resorted to with Deborah. I think it does much to show the true character of Fanatical debunkers and really how when their true intent to decieve doesn't seem to be working, like little kids they stomp up and down and have temper tantrums and call names. Pretty funny really, if one is able to see it for what it is. Geoengineering is of course as many many people now widely recognize quite active all around and things like HAARP now being discussed almost in the sub-mainstream. AS I have said over and over(and Halva provided a link to) geoengineering (or 'chemtrails' as SOME people refer to it is being taught all the way from universities to even grade schools. It is simply inconceivable to me there are still such things as "debunkers" concerning geoengineering, still in the dark (or professionally motivated) that lurk around boards trying to deny this stuff. I hate to be critical but some of JR's posts sounded as if he was a mental patient, his ramblings and all about "conspiracies" amd "chemmies" and all his attempts to put people down that simply have become aware of the Aerosol Releases going on now above them. Not to jump on the "turnip" bandwagon but perhaps he should stick to that rather siince he is afraid to discuss geoengineering. It's like The Cross. It scares away Vampires. 8)

SmT

[Oscar]

Why hasn't anyone who believes in a chemtrail - geoengineering
program attempted to answer Jay Reynolds 10 reasonable questions?
If you can't answer the questions it gives credibility to the existence of
a hoax.

[halva]

สถานการณ์ล่าสุด


กรีนพีซร่วมมือเครือข่ายสากลฯ จัดกิจกรรมต้านโรงงานเผาขยะ
เร่งรัฐบาลหาทางออกที่ยั่งยืนในการกำจัดและลดปริมาณข ยะ
กรุงเทพฯ 16 กรกฏาคม 2546 -- กรีนพีซจัดงานแถลงข่าวแจ้งข้อมูลล่าสุดเรื่องผลกระทบ จากโรงงานเผาขยะ และการให้สัตยาบันแก่อนุสัญญาสต็อกโฮล์มของรัฐบ าลไทย เพื่อร่วมสนับสนุนกลุ่มองค์กรภาคประชาชนมากกว่า 200 กลุ่มจาก 62 ประเทศ ที่รวมตัวกันจัดกิจกรรมเร่งรัดรัฐบาลของแต่ละปร ะเทศ ในการหาทางออกที่ยั่งยืนของการกำจัดขยะ แทนโรงงานเผาขยะที่เป็นแหล่งกำเนิดแหล่งใหญ่ที่สุดขอ งมลพิษ ที่ให้ข้อมูลบิดเบือนแก่ประชาชน ว่าผลิตความร้อนและกระแสไฟฟ้า
แอน เลียวนาร์ด ผู้ประสานงาน เครือข่ายสากลเพื่อยุติเทคโนโลยีเผาขยะและส่งเสริมทา งเลือกในการจัดการของเสีย (GAIA -- Global Anti Incinerator Alliance) ประกอบด้วยสมาชิกจากกลุ่มองค์กรภาคเอกชนมากกว่า 375 กลุ่มจาก 77 ประเทศ ที่รวมตัวกันเพื่อระงับมลพิษและการสูญเปล่าจากการเผา ขยะ กล่าวว่า "เนื่องจากกระแสการต่อต้านโรงงานเผาขยะที่รุนแรงมากขึ ้น ทำให้กลุ่มผู้ได้รับผลประโยชน์จากโรงงานเผาขยะพยายาม หาทางออกด้วยวิธีต่างๆ เช่นการปรับรูปแบบและวิธีการของโรงงานเผาขยะ สร้างภาพว่ามีการใช้เทคโนโลยีใหม่มาทดแทนวิธีเดิมที่ ถูกปฎิเสธ เช่นการใช้พลังงานทดแทนอื่นๆ การใช้พลังงานเพื่อสิ่งแวดล้อม พลังความร้อนหรือก๊าซ"
จากการดำเนินงานอย่างต่อเนื่องทั่วโลกเพื่อต่อต้านโร งงานเผาขยะ ที่มีผลกระทบต่อสุขภาพประชากร สภาพแวดล้อม เศรษฐกิจ และสังคม ส่งผลให้การรณรงค์ปฎิบัติการยุติโรงงานเผาขยะทั่วโลก ครั้งที่ 2 ได้รับความสนใจและได้รับความร่วมมือจากองค์กรต่ างๆ ทั่วโลกมากยิ่งขึ้น โดยการดำเนินงานเหล่านี้ นำทีมโดยเครือข่ายฯ GAIA ที่ดำเนินการในวันต่อต้านโรงงานเผาขยะปีละครั้ง เพื่อชี้แจงผลกระทบของการเผาขยะ และมลพิษที่เกิดจากการจัดการขยะ ควบคู่ไปกับการส่งเสริมการจัดการที่ปลอดภัยและยั่งยื นในการกำจัดและลดปริมาณขยะ
ปัจจุบัน เครือข่ายฯ GAIA ได้นำเสนอรายงานเรื่อง "Waste Incineration: A Dying Technology" ที่ได้อธิบายว่า โรงงานเผาขยะเป็นวิธีการที่ล้าสมัยและไม่ยั่งยื น ถือเป็นฆาตกรในคราบเทคโนโลยี โดยมีเหตุผลรับรอง 3 ประการ ประการแรกในแง่ของเทคโนโลยีในการจัดการขยะ วิธีนี้นอกจากจะปราศจากความน่าเชื่อถือแล้ว ยังก่อให้เกิดของเสียต่อเนื่องขึ้น ซึ่งมีอันตรายมากกว่าของเสียดั้งเดิม ประการที่สองในแง่ของพลังงานที่ได้จากการเผาขยะ พลังงานที่ได้เป็นพลังงานไร้ประสิทธิภาพและเกิดขึ้นจ ากของเสีย ประการที่สามในแง่การพัฒนาเศรษฐกิจแล้ว ถือเป็นหายนะก็ว่าได้ เพราะโรงงานเผาขยะทำให้ชุมชนต้องเสียงบประมาณจำนวนมา ก แต่ผลที่ได้รับคือความหวาดวิตกของคนในชุมชนและงานที่ อันตราย
กรีนพีซร่วมมือเครือข่ายสากลฯ จัดกิจกรรมต้านโรงงานเผาขยะ / 2
นายธารา บัวคำศรี ผู้ประสานงานรณรงค์ด้านสารพิษ กรีนพีซ กล่าวเพิ่มเติมว่า "ทุกวันนี้ พลังมวลชนได้แสดงให้เห็นชัดเจนว่า พวกเขาต่อต้านและปฎิเสธโรงงานเผาขยะ รวมทั้งวิธีการกำจัดของเสียอื่นๆ ที่สร้างมลพิษ ยิ่งกว่านั้น การต่อต้านพลังงานนิวเคลียร์ที่อ่อนกระแสลงไป อาจทำให้ไม่มีเทคโนโลยีใดที่จะทำให้ประชากรโลกลุกฮือ ขึ้นต่อต้านได้มากเท่ากับโรงงานเผาขยะและวิธีกำจัดขอ งเสียที่สร้างมลพิษ รัฐบาลประเทศต่างๆ จึงต้องคำนึงถึงการเลือกใช้เทคโนโลยีที่ปลอดภัยและยั ่งยืนมากยิ่งขึ้น"
การต่อต้านจากสาธารณชนส่งผลเสียต่อผู้ได้รับประโยชน์ จากโรงงานเผาขยะไปทั่วโลก ใน 15 ปีที่ผ่านมา การเคลื่อนไหวของประชาชนทั่วไป ส่งผลให้มีการยกเลิกโครงการก่อสร้างโรงงานเผาขยะในสห รัฐอเมริกาไปมากกว่า 300 โรงงาน ในญี่ปุ่น พลังมวลชนส่งผลให้มีการปิดโรงงานเผาขยะไปมากกว่ า 500 แห่งในระยะเวลาสองสามปี และล่าสุดรัฐบาลใน 15 ประเทศได้ประกาศห้ามการก่อสร้างโรงงานเผาขยะในบางส่ว นของประเทศ ในขณะที่ ฟิลิปปินส์ได้ประกาศห้ามอย่างเด็ดขาด
การจัดแถลงข่าวของกรีนพีซในวันนี้ ดำเนินการพร้อมกับช่วงที่มีการประชุมตัวแทนจากรัฐบาล ประเทศต่างๆ เรื่อง "อนุสัญญาสต็อกโฮล์ม" ว่าด้วยการกำจัดมลพิษตกค้าง (POPs) ที่กรุงเจนีวา สวิตเซอร์แลนด์ ซึ่งแนวโน้มของการประชุมครั้งนี้ได้เน้นไปที่ การกำจัดสารพิษสองชนิดที่เกิดขึ้นจากโรงงานเผาขยะให้ หมดไปจากสภาพแวดล้อม ได้แก่ ไดออกซิน และ ฟิวแรน ซึ่งเป็นสารพิษที่ทำลายยากที่สุดและทำให้เป็นโรคมะเร ็ง
การประชุมได้ระบุชัดเจนว่า โรงงานเผาขยะทุกประเภท รวมทั้งเตาเผาขยะสารพิษ เป็นผู้ก่อให้เกิดและปล่อยสารพิษสามชนิดสู่สิ่งแวดล้ อม ได้แก่ ไดออกซิน ฟิวแรน และ โพลิคลอริเนต ไบเพนนิล และได้ให้คำแนะนำเกี่ยวกับการใช้เทคโนโลยีอื่นในการก ำจัดขยะ เพื่อยุติการก่อให้เกิดมลพิษแก่สิ่งแวดล้อม ไม่ว่าจะโดยตั้งใจหรือไม่ก็ตาม ซึ่งองค์การสหประชาชาติด้านสิ่งแวดล้อม (The United Nations Environment Program - UNEP) ได้รายงานว่า ร้อยละ 69 ของปริมาณ ไดออกซิน ทั้งหมดในสภาพแวดล้อม เกิดจากโรงงานเผาขยะ
ผู้สนใจทุกท่านสามารถดึงรายงานเรื่อง "Waste Incineration: A Dying Technology" ได้จาก www.no-burn.org โดยไม่เสียค่าใช้จ่ายใดๆ (รายงานนี้จัดทำให้เครือข่าย GAIA โดยนีล ทันกรี Formerly of Essential Action USA ประกอบด้วยรายละเอียดผลเสียของโรงงานเผาขยะ และการรวมพลังทั่วโลกในการต่อต้านการเผาขยะ)

[halva]

The repertoire of trickery resorted to by debunkers is really quite limited and we see one of their handful of stratagems now being tried out by Letxa.

Reynolds withdraws, to be replaced by another debunker who has allegedly been "on holidays" and so has missed all the demonstrations of the last pages of the total superfluity of the debunker presence here.

This gives him the right to start the discussion - HIS discussion - again from square one.

At first he assumes the role of the "helper", who is just wanting to make it easier for us to solve our public relations problems with the great mass of the population who are debunkers without knowing it.

Debunkers go into "helpful" mode between humiliations, which they never remember for more than five minutes.

[jayreynolds]

The repertory of trickery curently being promoted by chemmies is to ban anyone who has the slightest hint of hesitancy in the "faith" of the "chemtrail" cult. This latest suggestion comes on the heel of admissions that Letxa has successfully demolished the radar anomaly sect within the greater cult, led by 'electricmojoman', who was revealed to be posting from a Boeing Corporation computer and attempting to hack Letxa's website.

No chemmie has deplored the hacking or profanity used by electricmojoman, or questioned his posting from the Boeing Corporate computer network.

Strange.
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000107.html

[halva]

What is the connection between all my talk about cognitive dissonance and the slogan attached to my postings?

What debunkers will not permit is the suspension of judgement, the dispassionate examination of reality.

If Footsoldier makes a reference to cloud-seeding, this must be because she wants to demonise cloud-seeding, to call it ‘chemtrails’.

Always assumed is that if one acknowledges the existence of ‘chemtrails’ the necessary concomitant of this is that they must be condemned as illegal, a cover for greater illegalities, a matter for protest, for rage, for terrorism, if all else fails.

What NOBODY, but NOBODY, is allowed to be is CALM, to separate analysis from judgement, description from prescription..

It is this that predicates every invitation to discussion from debunkers on the acceptance of a cognitive dissonance machine which debunkers and only debunkers are to have the right to turn on and off at will.

The cognitive dissonance centers on the contradiction between the actual relations of warfare between the two sides, with no negotiated truce in force, or in sight, and the exhortations to acceptance of rules of ‘democracy’, for which a negotiated truce is a necessary prerequisite.

The mistake with CTC moderating is that it seeks to apply the rules of private etiquette in a situation where only the rules of war are appropriate.

To the helpers who intervene after each bout of molestation and aggression by Reynolds and ask why we (or at least I) don’t answer his questions, hear this:

The Protestant Reformation and the anti-Communist revolutions in Eastern Europe were staged to get this kind of priest-commissar figure off people’s backs and out of their hair.

Don’t imagine for a moment that the USA won the Cold War. The Cold War was won by the Germans in particular and the Europeans in general, using Reynolds-type Americans to do the shit work.

We have not liberated ourselves from one kind of barbarism just to allow barbarians of another kind to take up permanent residence.

[halva]

My essay "Strategies against Climate Change" is now on-line in Greek also at http://www.attac-hellas.org/strategies.htm

[jayreynolds]

Dear readers,
Foot soldier along with most of the 'inner sanctum' of the chemtrail cult experience intense mental stress from cognitive dissonance due to the inconsistency of their belief in "chemtrails" and the reality of life as experienced by non-believers.


The chemmies live in fear and devote themselves to endless prattle amongst fellow believers, developing ever more complex and irrational theories, and repeating the same tired lies. For the most part, they are loathe to allow an increase in the resulting mental anguish and intolerable pain it causes by dealing honestly with each other and the public. These lies are tolerated because in the glass house of "chemtrails" once one begins to question another, honestly, the chance of dissonance increasing is too great.

The 99% who encounter it leave the cult and are able to escape. Those
remaining find different ways to cope, all of which are harmful to themselves, and others. Some, such as 'dan rockwell' develop spit personality disorder, 'mark sky' devotes himself to nonsensical prose, 'thermit' has withdrawn into a shell, 'Sore' and Deborah have tried to piggyback their false belief onto reality-based concerns, while halva and others have taken on the mantle of grand inquisitors and focus on banning and persecution of non-believers.

NONE of these people are being honest and dealing with the reality that could ease the dissonance.

Until they do, they will remain mired in their respective self-made hells.

I work to help those whom I can.
Those like halva drink their own poison, my conscience is clear

[halva]

That humourless Woody Allen clone Noam Chomsky has been in Athens, Greece, this week.

His analysis on most counts is a string of fear-mongering commonplaces, but he is at least right about this, that there is no reason at all why ANYONE has to tolerate the type of totalitarianism at present spreading over the face of this planet, dictating modes of behaviour that could not survive for ten minutes in societies that had not had their natural psychological and biological defences systematically deconstructed.

[halva]

Some, such as 'dan rockwell' develop spit personality disorder, 'mark sky' devotes himself to nonsensical prose, 'thermit' has withdrawn into a shell, 'Sore' and Deborah have tried to piggyback their false belief onto reality-based concerns...

On April 4 Reynolds said: "I agree, bonehead, few of those touting this report have read it or appear to understand what it really says. To me, just reading the graphs tells you that it was at various times in recent geological history, both warmer and colder than today, all without human influence."

Under pressure, Reynolds retreats. Global climate change, which on April 4 was probably something that occurred without 'human influence', is now a 'reality-based concern'.

Needless to say, he will not retreat any further, to the extent of acknowledging that one form of 'chemtrail' is possibly a response to this 'reality-based concern'. He has invested too much in his present identity and cannot see any way of abandoning it with dignity, though I did try to help him to do so.

Of course I cannot help him. I am just one person, and I cannot protect him from the multitude of his other enemies.

[airtankerpilot]

Looks like a clip of natural cirrus and then aircraft contrails that persisted.

If there is cirrus already there, doesnt it stand to reason that therefore aircraft contrails might be able to persist too, since conditions very well might be favorable?

[jayreynolds]

halva wrote:
"Under pressure, Reynolds retreats. Global climate change, which on April 4 was probably something that occurred without 'human influence', is now a 'reality-based concern'.

No retreat at all, Wayne. The concern they are climbing aboard is over ordinary contrails. In March of 1999, five years ago, in my very first writing on the subject, I wrote:

From- "Those Mysterious Lines in the Sky"

"Since contrails are composed of water in the form of ice crystals, and they often eventually form cirrus type clouds, their effects are the same as natural clouds. Clouds influence our weather both by blocking the suns rays and by absorbing and radiating back heat emitted by the earth itself. Since air traffic is increasing as much as 5% per year, and the traffic is sometimes concentrated into corridors, the local and worldwide climate may be affected."

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/project366.html

Stupid chemmies.

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Wayne.
Have you met with Christos Zerefos yet?

[jayreynolds]

some cool contrail pictures:
http://www.mdbsite.com/skies/contrailed/index.htm

[lynn george]

Dear readers,
Foot soldier along with most of the 'inner sanctum' of the chemtrail cult experience intense mental stress from cognitive dissonance due to the inconsistency of their belief in "chemtrails" and the reality of life as experienced by non-believers.


The chemmies live in fear and devote themselves to endless prattle amongst fellow believers, developing ever more complex and irrational theories, and repeating the same tired lies. For the most part, they are loathe to allow an increase in the resulting mental anguish and intolerable pain it causes by dealing honestly with each other and the public. These lies are tolerated because in the glass house of "chemtrails" once one begins to question another, honestly, the chance of dissonance increasing is too great.

The 99% who encounter it leave the cult and are able to escape. Those
remaining find different ways to cope, all of which are harmful to themselves, and others. Some, such as 'dan rockwell' develop spit personality disorder, 'mark sky' devotes himself to nonsensical prose, 'thermit' has withdrawn into a shell, 'Sore' and Deborah have tried to piggyback their false belief onto reality-based concerns, while halva and others have taken on the mantle of grand inquisitors and focus on banning and persecution of non-believers.

NONE of these people are being honest and dealing with the reality that could ease the dissonance.

Until they do, they will remain mired in their respective self-made hells.

I work to help those whom I can.
Those like halva drink their own poison, my conscience is clear


SmT- Good Lord J, you sound like you are entirely cracking up. Please get a grip man, and realize the following: GEOENGINEERING PROGRAMS ARE REAL AND ONGOING! Here is a link to an interview given by Clifford Carnicom on Coast-to-Coast with Barbara Simpson from May 17,2003. I post it here only for those who want additonal info they may have not seen, please add it to your archives if you don't have it (and of course to give Bunkies something to do to put down and to feel useful) :D

If anyone can supply any USEFUL additonal info I would enjoy hearing it. Please save the USUAL Bunkie BS for those that simply want to argue not learn. Thanks,


http://carnicomcoast2coast.tripod.com/

SmT

[foot_soldier]

"jayreynolds" obviously missed the below-excerpted section from the following reference posted on Page 93:

January 28, 2004
New Use for Teapot Dome
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/28/tech/main596500.shtml

Used in enhanced oil recovery for decades, pumping carbon dioxide into underground reservoirs is being touted by the Bush administration as one of the most promising ways to counter the greenhouse effect.

"(Carbon dioxide) is the primary global greenhouse gas and it's growing rapidly," said Dag Nummedal, director of the University of Wyoming Institute for Energy Research. "During the last four or five years the international consensus is that the most rational, economic and environmentally benign way of getting CO2 out of the atmosphere is to store it underground."

"Right now, the best place to do this is in depleted oil and gas fields."

Teapot Dome - named for a nearby rock formation - is currently in its preliminary engineering and testing stages. Storage could begin by 2006 and last seven to 10 years, although Nummedal says managers "don't really know the upper limit yet."

When a reservoir is full, the pipeline is taken out and the hole sealed up.

"The objective is to keep it sealed underground forever, hundreds or thousands of years," Nummedal said.....cont.


"During the last four or five years the international consensus is that the most rational, economic and environmentally benign way of getting CO2 out of the atmosphere is to store it underground."

"Right now, the best place to do this is in depleted oil and gas fields."
The crux of this matter is that the GEOENGINEERING technique known as TERRESTRIAL CO2 SEQUESTRATION is being developed in conjunction with the current administration's plan for building more coal-fired power plants to service America's increasing appetite for cheap energy. The carbon dioxide emissions from these coal-fired plants will be captured and stored underground - and that's IF the technology to accomplish this can be made cost-effective.

Some useful information:

May 10, 2001
Blue Planet: CO2 control for coal late
http://www.medserv.no/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=126

UPI Science News -- The technology to remove and dispose of carbon dioxide from coal-fired power plant emissions exists today but it could be 35 years or longer before the methods are in place at most coal-fired plants. New generating plants take five to 10 years to build and any potential governing legislation is likely to have long lead times before implementation is mandatory.

Tony Armor, a coal energy expert with the Electric Power Research Institute in Palo Alto, said it is a complex equation. "If the economic drivers for generation producers to build were present and if new coal-fired power plants were required to have carbon dioxide capture and sequestration (permanent storage) capacity starting in the year 2015, it could easily be 2035 before newly built power plants incorporating CO2 capture and sequestration replaced more than half of the existing coal-fired fleet," Armor told UPI.

Only about five of the 1,082 coal-fired plants generating electricity in the U.S. are using carbon dioxide removal systems and they are designed to produce CO2 at a profit. The technology to permanently dispose of the CO2 once it is removed also is in limited use. CO2 emissions, such as those from burning coal, natural gas and gasoline exhaust, have become a major worldwide concern because they are believed to cause global warming. Burning coal produces 36 percent of total CO2 emissions in the United States, according to the U.S. Department of Energy, followed by natural gas at 21 percent and gasoline at 20 percent.

Coal generates 32 percent of all energy used in the United States, including 51percent of the country's electricity, and will be a major part of the Bush administration's energy plan. In a major policy speech last week, Vice President Dick Cheney stressed the importance of coal in supplying America's energy needs.

Emissions can be reduced by making the process of removing energy from coal more efficient. If more energy is obtained from a ton of coal, even with the same emissions, the amount of CO2 emitted per kilowatt hour of electricity produced is lowered.

The efficiency of extracting the energy from burning coal, currently averaging 33 to 35 percent, is expected to eventually increase to 60 percent through the use of innovative turbines, coal gasification and furnace modifications.

However, worldwide energy use could easily increase 10-fold during the next century of industrialization and coal is expected to be a major source of the energy used. Such an increase would more than offset efficiency gains. The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predicts a four-fold increase in annual worldwide CO2 emissions by the year 2100.

CO2 emissions are essentially uncontrolled. One country, Norway, imposes a tax of about $45 per ton of CO2. This has lead to some operations in which CO2 is captured and injected into briny aquifers under the ocean.

Once the CO2 is removed from exhaust gases, it must be permanently stored if the goal is to prevent its escape into the earth's atmosphere. Currently, the thinking is that underground storage or sequestration is the most promising approach. But not every coal-fired plant will simply be able to pump CO2 into the ground near the plant. Pipeline transportation to suitable burial sites will be necessary.

A joint U.S.-Canadian pilot sequestration project, using a 250-mile (400 km) CO2 pipeline, began late last year to measure how much CO2 escapes from deep storage sites. The technology is not new. Oil recovery operations currently pump CO2 into some oil fields to increase the amount of oil recovered.....cont.

One of many references on CO2 SEQUESTRATION projects now underway - be sure to look at the map:

2003
Utah Geological Survey
http://geology.utah.gov/emp/co2sequest/overview.htm

This project investigates the probable fate of CO2 if it can be economically separated from power plant flue gases and injected beneath the Colorado Plateau. A critical issue is how long it will remain trapped in the subsurface. Effective sequestration requires a time scale of about 1000 years without significant leakage back to the surface.....cont.

CO2 Capture Project Participating Organizations:

http://www.co2captureproject.org/contacts/contacts.htm

And a recent article on the planned expansion of coal-fired power generation:

April 2, 2004
Bush Opens Door to More Coal Burning
http://www.bushgreenwatch.org/mt_archives/000087.php

In a little-noticed development with potentially devastating consequences for energy consumers, public health and the environment, the Bush Administration has been laying the groundwork for a resurgence of coal-fired power generation across the nation.

Many of the Administration's actions to roll back the Clean Air Act -- such as its weakening of New Source Review rules (rules requiring better emission controls) and its retreat on regulating mercury emissions -- are custom tailored for the coal industry. Coal-burning power plants are the largest single source of mercury and greenhouse gas emissions in the U.S.

With these key regulatory victories under its belt, the coal industry is leading a gold rush to acquire federal permits for coal-fired power plants before it loses control of the White House to a more public-health-friendly administration. Since Bush took office, more than 94 new coal-fired power plants have reached the planning and permitting stages, according to government sources and media reports.

"I think most Americans would be shocked that utilities are dragging the 19th century into the 21st century," says Dan Becker, director of global warming and energy program at the Sierra Club.

Industry lobbyists, many of them working from inside the administration, claim that the resurgence of coal will be good for consumers. They point out, correctly, that North America sits on abundant coal reserves. Electricity generated from burning coal has been the cheapest domestic source of power since the industrial revolution; roughly 50 percent of the power produced in the U.S. still comes from coal.....cont.

[halva]

Hey, Wayne.
Have you met with Christos Zerefos yet?

What are you asserting that Zerefos will tell me, or has told me?

[jayreynolds]

'Lynn George' wrote:
"Here is a link to an interview given by Clifford Carnicom on Coast-to-Coast with Barbara Simpson from May 17,2003"
http://carnicomcoast2coast.tripod.com/

Well, since you brought it up, 'Lynn George', you must have read this part:

Clifford Carnicorn: Well, in my case, you know, this is somewhat of a point of contention with some folks, because you know there's folks that say these things are flying down at 10,000 feet. They're saying they're all military aircraft. The fact is, I just photograph it and I put the evidence up here. And what I find -- one can look at the photographs for themselves -- in my case, with my photographs, every one of those aircraft that I have would be of a commercial type. And I will have to use the phrase 'commercial type.' I cannot say whether it's commercial or not. But I can say that these aircraft that I have, especially Boeing 757s, 737s (MD-80 or DC-9, I think is the most current nomenclature) -- these are commercial-type aircraft that exhibit most unusual behavior, to say the least.

So, we have Carnicom saying that EVERY ONE of the planes he says are making "unusual behavior" is a commercial type plane. This is five years of observation, 'Lynn George', with high magnfication photographs like this one at the top of the page, pay close attention to the paint scheme on the plane:
http://carnicom.com/submit1.htm

Now check this photograph of a United Airlines Boeing 757-222:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/325057/M/

When Carnicom says, "I cannot say whether it's commercial or not.", he is lying to you, plain and simple.

Now, 'Lynn George', will you take the challenge to go beyond what Carnicorn has done and use Flight Explorer to identify what planes you see overhead, or let him scam you some more?

It's a simple question.

I expect a yes/no answer.

oh, and BTW, if carnicorn is such a scientist as he claims, why does he make such boo-boos in his presentation:
http://b25.ezboard.com/fcontrailsandchemtrails22884frm1.showMessage?topic ID=2362.topic

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Wayne.
Have you met with Christos Zerefos yet?

What are you asserting that Zerefos will tell me, or has told me?

Wayne, I'm wondering why you haven't taken the chance yet to speak with the most knowledgeable person in Greece about the issues that concern you. He could certainly tell you everything you ever needed to know about what is in the skies above Greece, that is, if you really wanted to know.....

http://ioc.atmos.uiuc.edu/members_display.php?id=42

You'll have to agree, he looks like a perfectly decent fellow, has impeccable credentials, and having him aboard would greatly ad to our discussion.

I haven't personally contacted him yet, and have decided to give you first chance. I've mentioned his name before. Take it or regret it.

[halva]

There is a passage in Liakopoulos’s book quoting yellow-press (‘Espresso’) news coverage of a statement last year by Christos Zerefos, who said in relation to aerosol spraying (chemtrails):

‘This is both laughable and dangerous. We are covering up one kind of damage by doing greater damage. It is well-known that the oxide of aluminium, which is one of the heavy metals, is toxic and dangerous to humans.”

[jayreynolds]

Well, Wayne, you say- that Liakopoulos said- that expresso said- that Zerefos said, is only the word of three sources which have established a reputation for inaccuracy. What we have here is third-hand, the stuff of rumor. I will now write Zerefos myself and ask him about the quote, and his position on "chemtrails".

BTW, if he supports your position I would have expected him to be presenting such concerns at the Kos conference, which he is organizing........

[halva]

Well, Wayne, you say- that Liakopoulos said- that expresso said- that Zerefos said, is only the word of three sources which have established a reputation for inaccuracy. What we have here is third-hand, the stuff of rumor. I will now write Zerefos myself and ask him about the quote, and his position on "chemtrails".

BTW, if he supports your position I would have expected him to be presenting such concerns at the Kos conference, which he is organizing........

Why would you expect him to be doing that? He is not necessarily going to drop everything and start shouting about chemtrails, especially if there are so many in his profession who are ambivalent or even positive in their attitude towards spraying of aerosols as a method of mitigating climatic change.

And as for my position, what is my position? If you read my "Strategies" article my position is that there should not be secrecy surrounding whatever is going on. Geoengineering should be a subject like genetically modified food or nuclear energy, about which contending political viewpoints can compete openly, without all the energy being consumed in the fight to get information declassified that should not be classified in the first place.

[jayreynolds]

message just sent:

Dear Dr. Zerefos,

On a public internet message board, a Mr. Wayne Hall of Aigina, Greece, has made the following statement quoting you:
====================
Wayne Hall: There is a passage in [Demosthenis] Liakopoulos’s book quoting yellow-press (‘Espresso’) news coverage of a statement last year by Christos Zerefos, who said in relation to aerosol spraying (chemtrails):

Christos Zerefos: "This is both laughable and dangerous. We are covering up one kind of damage by doing greater damage. It is well-known that the oxide of aluminium, which is one of the heavy metals, is toxic and dangerous to humans.”
====================

Dr Zerefos, the above quote can be seen by clicking here:
http://www.ariannaonline.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=89433#89433

Wayne Hall is a translator in Aigina who is popularizing the notion that ordinary contrails seen over Greece are actually military jets spraying aluminum oxide "chemtrails" as a geoengineering project in response to climate change. You can read his claims here at his website:
http://www.diplomatictimes.com/hddf/hddf/why.htm

Dr. Zerefos, I would appreciate answers to the following:

1. Is the above quote of you accurate, did you actually say this, and does it mean that you personally believe in the claims of "chemtrails" spraying over Greece coming from military jets using aluminum oxide?

2. Are you familiar with Demosthenis Liakopoulos's book quoting you?

3.Is there any scientific proof that what these people are seeing are anything other than ordinary contrails?

Thank you in advance for taking the time to examine the material and confirm the accuracy of the quotes attributed to you.

Best Regards,
Jay Reynolds, USA

[halva]

Speaking of fundamentalist cults, how are we going to translate the term 'chemmie' into Greek?

The word for Communist is 'kommounistis'. The hate word 'Commie' is 'kommouna'.

The word for chemistry is 'chemia'.

Should we translate 'chemmie': 'chemouna'?

[jayreynolds]

Wayne Hall wrote:
"He is not necessarily going to drop everything and start shouting about chemtrails, especially if there are so many in his profession who are ambivalent or even positive in their attitude towards spraying of aerosols as a method of mitigating climatic change."

I believe that if Dr. Zerefos, Katsaros, or others believed in "chemtrails", they would indeed speak out. However, I doubt the accuracy of your quotation, partly because of the chemmie's propensity for fabrication, and partly because if indeed Liakopoulos ever wanted a real quote from Dr. Zerefos, he wouldn't have needed to go to a third party. Both Zerefos and Liakopoulos are in the same town of Thessaloniki, all he had to do was go speak to him face-to-face. It's a lot easier to mis-quote or fabricate something when you never met the man, and it can all be blamed on a third party, right, Wayne??????

[jayreynolds]

Footsoldier, I'm really not interested in a discussion of CO2 capture with you, since it has no bearing on the areal geoengineering conspiracy theory you have laid claim to.

It's clear you really don't have the technical background to understand about the amine scrubbers(and certainly couldn't stand the stench of one), tertiary recovery, and related pipelines.

As an engineer who has worked extensively in both the power plant and petoleum industries in the past, I can understand how capture of CO2 from power plant exhaust and it's subsequent use in oil recovery to produce even more oil could work just fine, as long as it is profitable, or someone is found willing to pay the $100/ton to do it.

The enhanced oil recovery could help recover the vast billions of barrels of oil remaining in old oil fields, and I think that's a great idea!

My brother-in-law has fifty such wells on his 1000 acre ranch in west Texas. I was out there in that part of the country over Easter weekend.

The scrub brush land itself is worth $300.00/acre, but the mineral rights, ohmigosh!

[lynn george]

'Lynn George' wrote:
"Here is a link to an interview given by Clifford Carnicom on Coast-to-Coast with Barbara Simpson from May 17,2003"
http://carnicomcoast2coast.tripod.com/

Well, since you brought it up, 'Lynn George', you must have read this part:

Clifford Carnicorn: Well, in my case, you know, this is somewhat of a point of contention with some folks, because you know there's folks that say these things are flying down at 10,000 feet. They're saying they're all military aircraft. The fact is, I just photograph it and I put the evidence up here. And what I find -- one can look at the photographs for themselves -- in my case, with my photographs, every one of those aircraft that I have would be of a com