It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature

[halva]

There is certainly a lot of material in those fifty pages. Enough to help anyone interested understand the parameters of the situation.

[gaiacomm]

There is certainly a lot of material in those fifty pages. Enough to help anyone interested understand the parameters of the situation.


Yes, you are correct!

[Sore Throat]

From CTC Forum:
Boy , those "Chemmies" sure are wackos. Look, they are concerned about something that was proposed by the US National Academy of Sciences back in 1992. Yep, those "Chemmies" sure are out there...

or at least the debunkers would like you to think so.

Unfortunately they (debunkers) are completely IMPOTENT in dealing with the realities of abrupt climate change, the environmental consequences of increased air traffic, and the multitude of documented mitigation efforts already underway.

These are FACTS they don't want to acknowledge !

************************************************** ***********
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000124.html

This is a book written in 1992 regarding a study of greenhouse warming and mitigation. It presents solutions which include chemtrails and other tasty tid-bits!

All I did was search "geoengineering" and it took me to great information. It's a 900 page book, but my brief search got me this far... I think this is a really big part of what we are seeing in our skies...I do also believe, however, that the military is taking advantage of this project to do their nefarious nasty stuff!

http://books.nap.edu/books/0309043867/html/index.html

This snip is from page 453

Aircraft Exhaust Penner et al. (1984) suggested that emissions of 1 percent of the fuel mass of the commercial aviation fleet as particulates, between 40,000- and 100,000-foot (12- to 30-km) altitude for a 10-year period, would change the planetary albedo sufficiently to neutralize the effects of an equivalent doubling of CO2. They proposed that retuning the engine combustion systems to burn rich during the high-altitude portion of commercial flights could be done with negligible efficiency loss. Using Reck's estimates of extinction coefficients for particulates (Reck, 1979a, 1984), they estimated a requirement of about 1.168 × 1010 kg of particulates, compared with the panel's estimate of 1010 kg, based upon Ramaswamy and Kiehl (1985). They then estimated that if 1 percent of the fuel of aircraft flying above 30,000 feet is emitted as soot, over a 10-year period the required mass of particulate material would be emitted.

However, current commercial aircraft fleets seldom operate above 40,000 feet (12 km), and the lifetimes of particles at the operating altitudes will be much shorter than 10 years. An estimate (National Research Council, 1985) for the half-life of smoke is 1.4 × 10-7/s.14 This gives a half-life of 83 days, or a little less than one-quarter of a year....

[whitemajikman]

Gaia may I enquire what your E-mail address is,So we may correspond without the hostility that I have shown,I have many questions which need answers and I think you are one of a few that can honestly answer my queries......Now this is an olive branch will you accept?

[gaiacomm]

Gaia may I enquire what your E-mail address is,So we may correspond without the hostility that I have shown,I have many questions which need answers and I think you are one of a few that can honestly answer my queries......Now this is an olive branch will you accept?


yes, I will if I can!

Go to the website listed below my post and find Dr. Judah Ben-Hur.
He is a very busy person but I am sure that he will answer a question or two. Make sure you ID yourself from this website since he gets over 100 emails a day from everywhere and from many curious seekers!

[whitemajikman]

Thanks for your prompt reply,it is appreciated.

[gaiacomm]

Thanks for your prompt reply,it is appreciated.


Your quite welcome!

[jayreynolds]

'Sore' wrote:
"They proposed that retuning the engine combustion systems to burn rich during the high-altitude portion of commercial flights could be done with negligible efficiency loss."

If this is your claim, show proof. I predict you will never show any proof of your claim, whatsoever, because the idea is farcical.

I also challenge you to run your claims past Dr. Penner herself, and publicly showing us her opinions of your claim.

http://data.engin.umich.edu/Penner/

I predict you haven't got the guts to do it, and won't even try.

Jay

[jayreynolds]

That Dr. Penner wrote the book on the impacts of aviation.
She has probbaly already heard of chemtrails! ha-ha-ha

http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/

She'll get a lick out of your friend Diane Harvey's piece that you posted,
be sure you let her know about it:

http://www.rense.com/general50/wliar.htm

[gaiacomm]

still say that all should ignore Jay and his group. All they do is feed on reactions from their predictable questions and answers.

They are like a fly buzzing around a picnic table that just left a dead carcass and laid eggs to be maggots to later land on your food.

So just move the picnic table inside! The flies will not get in!

Just look at pages and pages of data some good some not.

Jay is not an authority on Chemtrails or Contrails. It is a hobby for him to play with. Jay designs and builds toilets for ships! And is a farmer that grows food in bad ground.

He has a website that is a clear indication of his personality. Just look at the design and layout.

Jay has found a niche section of the internet where he thinks he can rule as long as he pays his internet access bill each month.

Jay is a cyberjunkie who depends on the internet to get him out of the house and away from his family.

Jay will follow you like a bad virus. But you can rid the virus by giving it the "HAND".

Jay, Got milk?

[Sore Throat]

Read it for yourself Reynolds.

You do know how to read don't you?



Here is a link to the United States National Academy of Sciences report:

http://books.nap.edu/books/0309043867/html/index.html

Kinda stings doesn't it Reynolds.

Go ahead and call them names.

It's only a reflection on you.

[jayreynolds]

Hey, 'Sore', don't complain to me about your own inadequacies.
If you really wanted to find out how Dr. Penner feels about her research
TWENTY YEARS LATER, you would write her. it would have to go something like:
"Dear Dr. Penner,
My Name is "Sore" and I am "activist" who is too paranoid to tell you who I am but......"

ha! :lol:

[foot_soldier]

"gaiacomm" wrote:

Jay is not an authority on Chemtrails or Contrails.

This is an accurate statement.

"jayreynolds" is not an AUTHORITY on ANY of the issues being presented in this thread. The sooner people realize this the better. In my opinion.

[airtankerpilot]

"gaiacomm" wrote:

Jay is not an authority on Chemtrails or Contrails.

This is an accurate statement.

"jayreynolds" is not an AUTHORITY on ANY of the issues being presented in this thread. The sooner people realize this the better. In my opinion.

You dont have to be an authority to realize this crazy chemtrail conspiracy is rather kooky. Some vast conspiracy, involving thousands of airplanes or alien craft, involving hundreds of thousands of people and or space alien reptilian pilots, releasing barium, aluminum, red blood cells and SARS, but yet no recognizable photo of a plane equipped for this kind of release.

On the other hand, chemmies refuse to become experts or authorities in subjects like aviation, weather, air traffic control, etc . And the ones who are knowledgable and would be considered "authorities' do not believe in it.

Running around with photos of irregular contrails, or saying "oh so you dont care for the environment', "oh so you dont believe planes pollute" is not how you present chemtrail evidence.

[Sore Throat]

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992926

Aircraft vapour trails are climate scourge

Airlines could boost their emissions of the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide and still halve their impact on global warming. That is the paradoxical conclusion of a new study into the effects of commercial aviation on the environment.



The CO2 emitted from their engines is not the only way aircraft affect climate. They also do so through their contrails, the long trails of water vapour and ice that form in an aircraft's wake and which can persist for several hours. Contrails trap heat in the atmosphere by reflecting infrared radiation emitted from the Earth's surface.

In 1999 the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) calculated that contrails from the world fleet of 12,000 civil airliners contribute as much to global warming as the CO2 their engines pour out as they burn jet fuel.

But global air traffic is growing by around 3.5 per cent per year, and many of those extra flights are long-haul, high-altitude, contrail-forming journeys. So by 2050 contrails will be having a great deal more of an impact on global warming than the CO2 emissions from aircraft engines.

At a price

Contrails could be eliminated if aircraft reduced their altitude from about 33,000 feet to between 24,000 feet and 31,000 feet, depending on the weather.

But this would come at a price: lower altitude means denser air and higher air resistance, so planes have to burn more fuel. And this means more CO2 emissions, which would apparently negate any benefits from eliminating contrails.

But according to researchers at Imperial College, London, the idea may work after all. "It seems counterintuitive," admits Robert Noland, one of the authors of the study. But Noland and his colleagues have calculated that if planes flew low enough to leave no contrails behind, their fuel consumption would increase by only four per cent, boosting CO2 emissions by the same amount.

Human burden

The team based their calculations on a simulation of a year's worth of traffic over the busiest part of Europe, taking into account the need for different aircraft to fly at different altitudes to avoid collisions.

But the proposed trade-off between cumulative CO2 emissions and short-lived contrails should be approached with caution, says Ben Matthews, a climate researcher at the Catholic University of Leuven, in Belgium.

"Such a policy might reduce the warming in the short term in regions where most planes are flying, but still increase the warming in the longer term in southern developing countries," he says.

And the Imperial team admits that reducing altitudes may not be a cure-all, since its burden on air traffic controllers has yet to be fully assessed.


Duncan Graham-Rowe

[foot_soldier]

"airtankerpilot" wrote:

Running around with photos of irregular contrails, or saying "oh so you dont care for the environment', "oh so you dont believe planes pollute" is not how you present chemtrail evidence.

You're beating a dead horse.

The entire aviation sector needs to be seriously evaluated for the damage it is causing to the global atmosphere and the stratospheric ozone layer. In my opinion THAT is the issue you and your pals are working full time to keep from being discussed in a public venue. In my opinion THAT is the issue you are working full time to cover up.

$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $

[Yaak]

Let's see if I've got this straight -

Contrails cause global warming.
Chemtrails reduce global warming.
How am I doing? :D

Those white lines in the sky that persist for hours and become cirrus clouds are chemtrails, right:?: Now wait a minute, aren't they what are causing the global warming, by reflecting heat back to Earth. So, chemtrails cause global warming. But wait, I thought chemtrails were being sprayed to stop global warming. :cry:

So which is it, Sore Throat -

1.) Chemtrails cause global warming, contrails prevent it
2.) Chemtrails prevent global warming, contrails cause it
3.) Chemtrails and contrails cause global warming
4.) Chemtrails and contrails prevent global warming
5.) Chemtrails are a hoax, and contrails may eventually contribute to global warming
6.) It doesn't really matter because the Earth is going into a cooling cycle (which will no doubt be blamed on geo-engineering / chemtrails :lol:

[Yaak]

First of all the unofficial topic of this thread is whether or not chemtrails exist.

Foot Soldier said, "The entire aviation sector needs to be seriously evaluated for the damage it is causing to the global atmosphere and the stratospheric ozone layer."

I agree

Foot Soldier said, "In my opinion THAT is the issue you and your pals are working full time to keep from being discussed in a public venue. In my opinion THAT is the issue you are working full time to cover up."

Nobody is keeping it covered up better then the chemmies with their insane chemtrail hoax. They divert attention away from legitimate and real issues.

[Sore Throat]

foot soldier states:


"In my opinion THAT is the issue you and your pals are working full time to keep from being discussed in a public venue. In my opinion THAT is the issue you are working full time to cover up."

Yaak responds:


Nobody is keeping it covered up better then the chemmies with their insane chemtrail hoax. They divert attention away from legitimate and real issues.

So now I understand Yaak, why you, Jay Reynolds, and other debunkers populate these threads, day in and day out, for years on end.

You're trying to disprove something you know doesn't exist, and you want to redirect the concerns of the participants in these matters to other "legitimate and real" issues that you feel are so much more important.

Nevertheless, it surprises me Yaak, that you and Reynolds spend such a tremendous amount of your time here, acting as debunkers, when you could be out working on those oh so important "legitimate issues".

Those "real" issues.

But instead, you spend all those hours here...day in and day out, attempting to disprove something that you are absolutely certain doesn't exist.


And what do you do in your effort to recruit people to your worthy and legitimate causes?... how do you endeavor to save them from their "insane" concerns? ...

Well, you insult, debase, and threaten them...that's been the debunker modus operandi since day one.

And you really expect them to respect your sincerity?

As they say in the South, "That dog don't hunt!"

[foot_soldier]

When all commercial aircraft were grounded after September 11, 2001, a unique portal opened onto surface temperature. The range in daily temperature on those days without jet flights proved to be the widest in 30 years. The reason: Contrails block sunlight by day and retain heat on the earth by night.
"How far we are to look:" A Context for Climate Change Research

Dr. Rita R. Colwell
Director
National Science Foundation
U.S. Climate Change Science Program:
Planning Workshop for Scientists and Stakeholders

http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/forum/colwell/rc021204climatechngwkshp.htm



Exhaust fumes from aircraft at cruising altitudes are much more damaging than the same emissions at ground level and there are regular warnings from leading scientists of the threat to the world’s weather systems if atmospheric overheating is not checked.
Peer Bids to Curb Aircraft Pollution
The Scotsman - January 16, 2004

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2415135

[Yaak]

Does Sore Throat make any sense to anyone besides himself?
What are chemtrails, Sore?
Do you believe in chemtrails Mr. Throat?
How about the Tooth Fairy?

Sore Throat, I spend most of my Internet time writing to my Representative, Senators, the EPA and other government offices.

Foot Soldier, how about starting a new thread sans chemtrails for the issues you are trying to present. You might be surprised how much assistance you receive from so called debunkers. This thread is the same old "chemtrails are a hoax - no they're not" tripe.

[halva]

Sore Throat makes sense to me.

[halva]

And you won't put a wedge between the Footsoldier concerns and the chemtrails activist concerns.

The time when you could do that is over. Sore Throat's presence at this forum is testimony to that.

[jayreynolds]

Yes, I'd like to see the answers 'sore' and 'Deborah'(footsoldier)
have for those questions.
So which is it, Sore Throat -

1.) Chemtrails cause global warming, contrails prevent it
2.) Chemtrails prevent global warming, contrails cause it
3.) Chemtrails and contrails cause global warming
4.) Chemtrails and contrails prevent global warming
5.) Chemtrails are a hoax, and contrails may eventually contribute to global warming
6.) It doesn't really matter because the Earth is going into a cooling cycle (which will no doubt be blamed on geo-engineering / chemtrails

The problem they really have yet to face publicly(I think they have already faced it privately) is that their past statements claimed that when they saw "x-trails" that persisted and spread, that those were "chemtrails", which they first called "spraying", and later modified to read "aerosol operations".

Keep in mind that the internet is full of quotable statements including websites by these 'Sore' and Deborah(footsoldier) that can be brought out showing their full participation in the hoax, and their actions against myself, many meteorologists, scientists, pilots, and ordinary people who have been telling them, and the world, that what they called "chemtrails" were simply ordinary contrails.

They have a long history of denial that what they saw were contrails!

They have a long history of denial that the pictures they said were "chemtrails" were contrails!

They have a long history of obfuscation, character asassination, website destruction, and lobbying against people who told them that what they called "chemtrails" were ordinary contrails!

And now, when the jig is up, and the hoax can be fully seen for what it truly is:
-lies upon lies
-speculation built of falsehood
-unsupported claims
-idiots quoting lunatics
-lunatics quoting idiots
-fanatics pushing hidden religious, cultural, or political agendas

Now they come, seeking to engage in the real word.

They had better take that long look in the mirror I told them to take, because what they will see is the face of someone who long ago squandered their credibility by their own actions. Essentially, they have done more to discredit a reality-based discussion of ordinary contrails than anyone else on the face of the earth ever could have.

ALL, and I mean ALL researchers engaged in scientific study of ordinary contrails that I have corresponded with have been appalled at the depths of deception that 'Sore' and Deborah have resorted to.

Those two have thoroughly disrespected many of the real contrail researchers, not once, not twice, but scores of times on a personal level. The recent posting by 'Sore' of Diane Harvey's "Weather Liars" is just one of the more recent examples. I can quote reams more.

When Deborah says-

"The entire aviation sector needs to be seriously evaluated for the damage it is causing to the global atmosphere and the stratospheric ozone layer. In my opinion THAT is the issue you and your pals are working full time to keep from being discussed in a public venue. In my opinion THAT is the issue you are working full time to cover up."

She knows she is lying. The website she and 'Sore' wrote, 'Chemtrails over America", doesn't even mention the word contrail, so fearful were they during it's creation that people might consider then fact that their pictures showed ordinary contrails.

Quite simply, it is a perverse prevarication for either of these two hypocrites to now come complaining about contrails.

They left THAT table long ago, and will never again find a seat THERE, not until they are willing to come forward and blow the lid on the whole hoax, tell about it from the inside out, come clean.

ADMIT THAT THEY WERE WRONG, TELL ALL ABOUT WHO THE LIARS ARE, , WHO THE LUNATICS ARE, WHERE THE MONEY GOES, WHO IS HIDING WHAT, JUST TELL THE TRUTH FOR ONCE.

THEN, JUST MAYBE THEN, WILL THEY EVEN BE CONSIDERED TO HAVE A VOICE IN THE REAL WORLD.

If either of them wants to really do it, and do it right, the "chemtrails" house of cards would fall almost overnight, it is truly that shaky, with only the thinnest of veils over the most rotten core you could imagine.

[Sore Throat]

Amazing how threatened you feel by one or two lunatics Reynolds.

Amazing how much of your life has been absorbed in a battle against something that you consider to be insane.

Amazing how many falsehoods you are willing to manufacture to bolster your position.

Simply amazing.

I can understand your frustration Reynolds.

The rug is being pulled out from underneath you on a daily basis.

Why no more of your rantings that "Global warming is a hoax"?

Are you abandoning that holy crusade Reynolds? Finding your position increasingly untenable?

Lots of money being spent on mitigation efforts Reynolds...more and more every day ...millions and millions of dollars Reynolds.

Want to pretent that this isn't happening? ...that this is all the response to a hoax?

Just how many scientists need to tell you that the world is moving into increasing climatic instability?

How many insurers need to tell you that they can't afford the cost of weather related claims?

How much will aircraft need to alter our atmosphere before the consequences are inescapable...even to you?



But to further emphasize just how deluded Jay Reynolds is, what an obssessed Ahab he is, he has the audacity to state the following:


"If either of them wants to really do it, and do it right, the "chemtrails" house of cards would fall almost overnight, it is truly that shaky, with only the thinnest of veils over the most rotten core you could imagine."

Here's news for you Reynolds.

I just did a Google seach on the term "ChemTrails".

It produced 56,300 hits.

Now that's an amazing number.

Do you actually think that if I suddenly recanted all of my concerns for the last five years that this would somehow change the perception of people all across this country?

Amazing how deluded you are Reynolds.

You'll have to find someone else to drink YOUR Kool-Aid.


Yes, it must be very lonely for you out there Reynolds....

A word of warning however.

Be prepared to defend what you assert to be true.

In many areas, You simply don't know what you're talking about.

There may well be a day of judgment.

[foot_soldier]

"Sore Throat" wrote:


Just how many scientists need to tell you that the world is moving into increasing climatic instability?

How many insurers need to tell you that they can't afford the cost of weather related claims?

How much will aircraft need to alter our atmosphere before the consequences are inescapable...even to you?

It must be lonely out there Reynolds....

but be prepared to defend what you assert to be true.

In many areas you simply don't know what you're talking about.

This is an accurate statement.

[jayreynolds]

Hey, I'm not the one hdidng behind an alias, or the one who has had to do a 180 when his hoax was shown for what it was, 'Sore'.

Cool to watch you implode, dud.

Answer the questions.
52 pages and counting.
Too tough for you.....?

[foot_soldier]

"Deborah's" participation in a "Hoax":

http://pub8.ezboard.com/fchemtrailsstratosphericandtroposphericozoneresear ch.showMessage?topicID=75.topic

Is this what you're so upset about, "jayreynolds"?

[jayreynolds]

Hey Throat, guess what business the second richest man in the world is in?

You guessed it- Ol' Warren Buffett- reinsurance.

Take a look at his company's charts:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=BRKa&t=2y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=

Give you one guess why they complain about risk, K?

Can you say- rate increase coming soon?

Big money in insurance, incredible what you can do with float.

[jayreynolds]

Deborah wrote:

"Deborah's" participation in a "Hoax":

http://pub8.ezboard.com/fchemtrailsstratosphericandtroposphericozoneresear ch.showMessage?topicID=75.topic

Is this what you're so upset about, "jayreynolds"?

Sorry, I haven't been able to read that board for a couple of years now, something about being banned because I disputed the "reality of chemtrails".

Folks, Deborah Stark(footsoldier) admitted publicly she was editor of 'Chemtrails over America". I don't think she believes any of it anymore, maybe she didn't then, since she didn't have the guts to put her name on it. She's an enviro-freak who grew up in the city and hardly ever saw the sky as a child. She suffers from intense Nephelophobia and probably some other psychiatric disorders.

I'd feel sorry for her if she wasn't such a liar and hypocrite. I've told her many times how she could escape the "chemtrail" cult, and help others, but she is rather a confirmed case and will probably take years of treatment to recover, if at all.

[foot_soldier]

:lol:

Your friend from Indiana was the LIAR, Mr. Reynolds. And it's never been so apparent as it is right now. You're just parroting the same old crap. You've gotten a lot of mileage out of that, haven't you?

"Yaak" suggested that a new thread be initiated to explore the aviation sector's documented negative impact on the global atmosphere and stratospheric ozone. I think he should know by now that you and your ilk would ruin THAT, too, just as you've done all along, for YEARS, to similar threads - when you weren't banned from posting, that is. Your behavior is well known.

[jayreynolds]

:roll:

[airtankerpilot]

Do some here even believe in chemtrails, that align themselves with chemmies?

Or do they see it as a possible vehicle to try and acheive their environmentals goals, even if they do not share the conspiracy belief of thousands of spray rig equipped planes and space ships?


If you want go start a thread regarding aviation pollution, go for it. I wont stand in your way. I dont recall even any arguments on chemtrail boards regarding incidental aviation pollution.

[Sore Throat]

I think that 1998 was the warmest year on record.

http://www.wmo.ch/web/Press/Press670.html


I think that in the Spring of 1999, I began to witness a dramatic, abrupt change in the persistence of aircraft contrails observed in the San Francisco Bay Area.

I think the Earth is experiencing a period of rapid climate change that is being significantly influenced by the 6.4 billion people presently inhabiting the planet.

I think that global warming due to increased greenhouse gases and increased ultraviolet radiation as the result of ozone depletion are having an increasingly detrimental impact on life on Earth.

I think that there are no indications of stratospheric ozone recovery despite bans on some principal ozone depleting chemicals.

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/imgdb/img/2073-img.gif
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/imgdb/img/2119-img.gif

I think that the levels of CO2 are at record levels in the atmosphere and the rate of increase is accelerating.

http://cdiac.esd.ornl.gov/trends/co2/sio-mlo.htm

I think that there are numerous expensive projects underway to sequester CO2 that is produced by fossil fuel combustion.

I think that there have been numerous studies which have reported a variety of atmospheric modifications that could be undertaken to mitigate the global warming effects of greenhouse gases.

I think that the severity and increasing rate of climate change would induce many people in power to implement these mitigation projects.

I think that the powers that be do not want these activities to be known to the general public.

I think that such atmospheric modifications could have significant impact on human health

I think that the powers that be would restrict the media from reporting on such mitigation activities on the claim of national security.

I think that the powers that be would do everything possible to keep such atmospheric modifications projects secret, and one way to do this would be to populate channels of communication with disinformation agents.

I think that the Constitution of the United States of America guarantees the right of free speech.

I think that in times of crisis, American patriots stand up for what they believe to be true and right, no matter what the opposition.

I think that as you sow, so shall you reap.

I think that there will be a day of judgment.

[jayreynolds]

Deborah wrote:
"Your friend from Indiana was the LIAR, Mr. Reynolds. And it's never been so apparent as it is right now. You're just parroting the same old crap. You've gotten a lot of mileage out of that, haven't you?"

The person Deborah is referring to is Deb Phalen. She has created her own website to present her views. I highly recommend it.

http://worldzone.net/international/chickiedeb/
and
http://cdebsjournal.topcities.com/leadpage.htm

Well, it's pretty clear that Deb Phalen outed you and your crew in "The Group" that wrote "Chemtrails Over America". You admitted all that yourself, a long time ago. It wasn't a lie, it turns out.

The "mileage" which is what you fear, is because of the insight it gives into just how far you are willing to go to save face when confronted with the facts about your lies and deception in private versus the public face you and the other "chemtrail" cognoscenti present.

Deb was once a "chemtrail" believer, she was a genuine member of the cult, even more genuine than you, Deborah. She and I argued and fought in exactly the same way you and I do now. Redaers might wonder just how I know she was genuine and more committed to finding the truth than Deborah, 'Sore', or the rest.

I'll try to explain.

Back in 1999, I found out about a resource called "Flight Explorer", which is software which, along with a subscription to a live feed from FAA air traffic control, allows users to identify and track ordinary commercial flights making contrails overhead. Deb Phalen took up my challenge to use this service herself, and after many months of observation, was able to find that the planes she formerly believed were spraying her were just normal airliners going about their business.

During that same time(mid to October of 2000), she was in the loop of a faction of "chemtrail" believers who called themselves "The Group". These people included 'Sore' and Deborah (footsoldier), among others, who wrote "Chemtrails Over America". When she began to publicly state her findings with Flight Explorer, and suggest that others replicate her actions, she was, predictably, viciously turned on by the other cult members.

Now, Deborah, if Deb Phalen was a liar, as you say is "so apparent", I challenge you to present evidence of her lies. Otherwise you are the liar.

Also relevant to Deborah is her statement of TWO YEARS AGO regarding Flight Explorer:

"Thermit, this is an excellent, comprehensive, meticulous report. Your data are well-supported by your consistent, disciplined use of several quantification and documentation methods. And this study is reproducible, perhaps the most important factor of all. Anyone can take what you have done and apply it to study of their own area."

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000286.html

I dispute Deborah's claims as far as documentation, and even the veracity of the study, but one thing is clear:

To my knowledge, not a single one of the chemtrail cult members, including Deborah, have reproduced the study. Their failure to do so speaks volumes.

If they were seriously concerned about either putative
"chemtrails", or persistent contrails, they would have two years of data reproducing the results cited, they would have video, high telescopic photos of the aircraft "in the act", they would have flight numbers, altitudes, destinations, N-numbers, and ownership records.

Instead, what do 'Sore' and 'footsoldier' have after five years of deception?

"I THINK......."

[Yaak]

The Chemmie motto:
"I just know!"

Sore Throat rants:

"I think that the powers that be do not want these activities to be known to the general public.

I think that the powers that be would restrict the media from reporting on such mitigation activities on the claim of national security.

I think that the powers that be would do everything possible to keep such atmospheric modifications projects secret, and one way to do this would be to populate channels of communication with disinformation agents."

Who are "the powers that be"; do they have names?
Why wouldn't they want their activities known?
National security? Isn't your alleged project global?
Why would they keep it secret?
"disinformation agents"; do you mean chemmies?

[foot_soldier]

Hang it up, Mr. Reynolds. You will not get any more mileage out of a situation that transpired over four years ago. If people like "Deborah" and "Sore Throat" are the idiots you claim them to be then I would think their input on the matter at hand would be meaningless to you. In fact it IS meaningless to you as is clearly demonstrated a few posts back by your comment re: stratospheric O3-destroying NOx being "cool stuff" for just one example.

You can threaten people all you want and infest forum after forum with your relentless and malicious disruption of serious discussion but it will not change the fact that people's concerns regarding climate change and the factors catalyzing it are more than justified.


I am in complete agreement with "Sore Throat's" post entitled "What I Think". There are in fact several mitigation technologies currently being implemented in attempts to neutralize the pollution-driven alterations in atmospheric and marine chemistry which are driving the climate change process.

[gaiacomm]

still say that all should ignore Jay and his group. All they do is feed on reactions from their predictable questions and answers.

They are like a fly buzzing around a picnic table that just left a dead carcass and laid eggs to be maggots to later land on your food.

So just move the picnic table inside! The flies will not get in!

Just look at pages and pages of data some good some not.

Jay is not an authority on Chemtrails or Contrails. It is a hobby for him to play with. Jay designs and builds toilets for ships! And is a farmer that grows food in bad ground.

He has a website that is a clear indication of his personality. Just look at the design and layout.

Jay has found a niche section of the internet where he thinks he can rule as long as he pays his internet access bill each month.

Jay is a cyberjunkie who depends on the internet to get him out of the house and away from his family.

Jay will follow you like a bad virus. But you can rid the virus by giving it the "HAND".

Jay, Got milk?

[liakopoulos]

THIS IS A CRAZY WORLD WE LIVE IN. SCIENTISTS TRYING TO PROOVE THAT A SHIP TOILET (OF DISPUTED QUALITY) MAKER (THAT'S JAY) IS WRONG . IGNORE HIM BEFORE YOU GO BANANAS

[liakopoulos]

HEY JAY ,SEARCH YOUR BACKYARD VERY CAREFULLY. YOU MIGHT FIND SOMETHING BEFORE THE FEDs DO

[Yaak]

http://www.ctbusters.com/cb.html
Chemtrailbusters

"The Chemtrailbuster destroys the aerosols that are being sprayed into our atmosphere, planet-wide. Chemtrailbusters have little or no direct effect on natural clouds. They replace the Dead Orgone in the atmosphere with good Orgone, both making it possible for natural clouds to form and making it difficult for chemtrail aerosols to remain.

I'm asked where do the chemtrails go? The Chemtrailbuster balances the orgone at high altitudes. Chemtrails are converted back into natural compounds that belong in the sky, like oxygen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, etc, in the presence of Orgone."

A tube, a little resin and a few crystals for the unimaginably low price of $299. Sure! You bet! I hope this will help those with rational minds understand what chemtrails are really about.

[foot_soldier]

Jet Aircraft Contrails Reduce the Diurnal Amplitude of Earth's Surface Air Temperature

Reference
Meerkotter, R., Schumann, U., Doelling, D.R., Minnis, P., Nakajima, T. and Tsushima, Y. 1999. Radiative forcing by contrails. Annales Geophysicae 17: 1080-1094.

(Reviewed January 1, 2000)

What was done
Based on what is known of the radiative properties of jet aircraft contrails, the authors conducted a model study of their consequences for climate at the earth's surface.

What was learned
The model employed by the authors predicted that the presence of contrails tends to cool the Earth's surface during daylight hours and warm it at night. It was also noted that aircraft emissions may cause additional indirect climate forcing by changing the particle size of natural cirrus clouds and that "this indirect forcing may be comparable to the direct forcing due to additional contrail cloud cover."

What it means
The authors state that the current instantaneous climatic effects of jet aircraft contrails are "of the same order of magnitude as the radiative forcing due to all previous carbon dioxide emissions by aviation." Although both of these phenomena are of relatively minor significance to ongoing climate change, this exercise nevertheless demonstrates that a number of things in addition to CO2 emissions may be impacting the climate in both positive and negative ways, and that we have yet to sort them all out.

http://www.co2science.org/journal/2000/v3n1c2.htm

================================

The model employed by the authors predicted that the presence of contrails tends to cool the Earth's surface during daylight hours and warm it at night. It was also noted that aircraft emissions may cause additional indirect climate forcing by changing the particle size of natural cirrus clouds and that "this indirect forcing may be comparable to the direct forcing due to additional contrail cloud cover."

================================

Four years later I think the above-excerpted statement has been more than adequately validated by several qualified researchers.

[foot_soldier]

Your perceptive advice is respectfully noted. Thank you. Best Regards.

[Yaak]

I believe that the contrails and aviation cirrus clouds filling our skies on an almost daily basis are anything but normal. I do NOT believe that their persistence is intentionally caused, rather it is a result of from-the-ground-up pollution and the incidental alteration of upper atmosphere caused by aviation.

Foot Soldier, so that we can exchange information and views in a more efficient manner, do you believe that jet aircraft condensation trails are intentionally being caused to persist?

[Sore Throat]

If the diehard debunkers can't honestly acknowledge the documented and growing impacts of aircraft emissions on the global atmosphere, why should they be believed on other controversial issues?

This is a question of credibility.

What we have at this point is Jay Reynolds claiming that "Global Warming is a Hoax."

Just how credible is that claim?

The issue of accelerated climate change, and a variety of mitigation programs, is a critical element of this discussion.

Let's see who of the debunkers is capable of acknowleding these realities (i.e., global climate change and aircraft impact on the global atmosphere).

http://www.airportwatch.org.uk/briefings/climate/climatebriefing.htm

Aviation Emissions and Climate

(A briefing based on a publication Aviation and Global Climate Change published by AEF, Friends of the Earth, NSCA and HACAN Clearskies)

People living near airports have long suffered from aircraft noise, traffic congestion and air pollution. Indeed communities around airports have been concerned about these issues for years. However new evidence shows that air travel is contributing towards a far greater threat - CLIMATE CHANGE.

Air travel growth + CO2 emissions

Air travel is the world's fastest growing source of greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide, which cause climate change. Globally the world's 16,000 commercial jet aircraft generate more than 600 million tonnes of carbon dioxide (CO2), the world's major greenhouse gas, per year. Indeed aviation generates nearly as much CO2 annually as that from all human activities in Africa. One person flying a return trip between London and New York generates between 1.5 and 2 tonnes of CO2.

The huge increase in aircraft pollution is largely due to the rapid growth in air traffic which has been expanding at nearly two and half times average economic growth rates since 1960. It is expected the number of people flying will virtually double over the next 15 years. This means increasing airport capacity, more flights, more pollution and increasingly crowded airspace.

Impacts of climate change

Scientists predict surface air temperatures are likely to rise between 1° to 3.5°C over the next century. This rate of warming is likely to be greater than at any time in the last 10,000 years. Although the effects will vary from place to place there is expected to be an increase in the number of very hot days and a decrease in the number of very cold days.

· More extreme weather events - Global warming is likely to lead to more natural disasters such as hurricanes, droughts and floods. The number of major natural disasters has increased threefold since the sixties.

· Spread of infectious diseases -The likely increase in warmer and wetter weather could enable infectious diseases such as malaria and yellow fever to spread to new areas.

· Disappearing countries - Global warming is expected to lead to a rise in sea levels of between 15 and 95cm over the next century. Many islands and low lying coastal areas will be affected by rising sea levels and some island nations could disappear altogether.

· Environmental refugees - Global warming could lead to the displacement of millions of people. Rising sea levels, floods and drought could make former land uninhabitable. Changing weather patterns could affect food crops and accelerate water shortages.

· Effect on tourism - Ironically one of the industries most at risk from climate change is tourism. Many tourist destinations depend on the natural environment for their appeal to tourists. A study commissioned by the World Wide Fund for Nature (WWF) found many popular British tourist destinations would be threatened as a result of global warming.

Aviation’s Contribution to Climate Change

In 1999 the world's top climate scientists, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), published a detailed study of the impact of aircraft pollution on our atmosphere - Aviation and the Global Atmosphere. The report's findings support the following:

• Aircraft release more than 600 million tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere each year.

• Aircraft currently cause about 3.5% of global warming from all human activities.

• Aircraft greenhouse emissions will continue to rise and could contribute up to 15% of global warming from all human activities within 50 years.

• Nitrogen oxides (NOx) and water vapour from aircraft engines are important greenhouse gases. Water vapour contributes to the formation of contrails, often visible from the ground, which in turn are linked to an increase in the formation of cirrus clouds. Both contrails and cirrus clouds warm the Earth's surface magnifying the global warming effect of aviation. Together, NOx and water vapour account for nearly two-thirds of aviation’s impact on the atmosphere. Hence any strategy to reduce aircraft emissions will need to consider other gases and not just CO2.

• An increase in the number of supersonic aircraft could further damage the ozone layer as aircraft emissions of NOx deplete ozone concentrations at high altitudes, where these aircraft would typically fly.

• The impacts on the global atmosphere from air travel will be concentrated over Europe and the USA where 70-80% of all flights occur. Hence the regional climatic impacts of aircraft emissions over these areas are likely to be greater than predicted by the IPCC report (which used global averages).

Most significantly, it concluded that improvements in aircraft and engine technology and in air traffic management will not offset the projected growth in aircraft emissions. That is, we need to slow the growth in air travel if we want to reduce the growth in aircraft greenhouse gas emissions.

Is The Industry Accountable?

Emissions from international aviation are specifically excluded from the targets agreed under the Kyoto Protocol. Instead, the Protocol invites developed countries to pursue the limitation or reduction of emissions through the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO). To date, ICAO had not agreed any specific action, although its environmental committee is considering the potential for using market-based measures. Emissions from domestic aviation are included within the targets agreed by countries. However, the UK climate change strategy does not include any measures for tackling the domestic aviation sector.

Furthermore, despite the UK Government’s stance that aviation and its users should pay for the social and environmental costs they impose, there is no duty on kerosene. The absence of a fuel tax, or an emissions based levy, allows airlines to charge artificially low fares as the cost of pollution is passed on to society and not the passenger.

A New Approach

If aviation had to meet its external environmental and social costs in full, and did not benefit from large subsidies (see AirportWatch economic briefing sheets), the growth in demand for air travel would be much slower. Additionally, airlines would have an added economic incentive to invest in the cleanest technology available. Using market-based measures to correct these market distortions is central to delivering a sustainable aviation policy. This year, the European Commission is expected to publish a consultation paper on a European-wide aviation environmental charge for greenhouse gas emissions. This presents the Government with an opportunity to demonstrate its commitment to the “polluter pays principle” by supporting the proposal.

The role of rail … Over short distances (e.g. routes around 500km) air travel produces up to three times more carbon dioxide per passenger then rail. Yet nearly 70% of all flights within European airspace are less than lOOOkm long. With over 7½ million flights within European airspace in 1998, there is a lot of scope to move short haul flights to rail. As well as less pollution, rail companies can boast faster check in times, city centre to city centre travel and less frequent delays than most airlines.

Teleconferencing … Advances in telecommunications can reduce the need to travel. Tele- and video-conferencing are increasingly becoming a viable alternative to flying for many business travellers.

Aviation and Global Climate Change was published by Friends of the Earth, Aviation Environment Federation, National Society for Clean Air and HACAN Clearskies in 2000. Full copies are available from the AEF website at www.aef.org.uk

[jayreynolds]

Just for the sake of discussion, 'footsoldier', considering what "Deborah" said, would you and 'Sore' ever be interested in replicating Thermit's study, like was stated two years ago??

Because if you aren't, well, you really aren't serious about this whole thing then, are you?Jay


Also relevant to Deborah is her statement of TWO YEARS AGO regarding Flight Explorer:

"Thermit, this is an excellent, comprehensive, meticulous report. Your data are well-supported by your consistent, disciplined use of several quantification and documentation methods. And this study is reproducible, perhaps the most important factor of all. Anyone can take what you have done and apply it to study of their own area."

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000286.html

I dispute Deborah's claims as far as documentation, and even the veracity of the study, but one thing is clear:

To my knowledge, not a single one of the chemtrail cult members, including Deborah, have reproduced the study. Their failure to do so speaks volumes.

If they were seriously concerned about either putative
"chemtrails", or persistent contrails, they would have two years of data reproducing the results cited, they would have video, high telescopic photos of the aircraft "in the act", they would have flight numbers, altitudes, destinations, N-numbers, and ownership records.

Instead, what do 'Sore' and 'footsoldier' have after five years of deception?

"I THINK......."

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Liakopoulos comes like a moth to a flame.
You people are putty in my hands.
Gotcha. :lol:

[foot_soldier]

About this page:
author: Elmar Uherek - MPI Mainz
first version: 2003-07-09
educational proofreading: Michael Seesing - Uni Duisburg - 2003-08-07
corrections and improvements: 2003-08-08

Aviation today and tomorrow

It's not easy to estimate the impact of aviation on our climate today and even more difficult to determine what effect it will have in the future. Up until recently, the aviation industry had little impact on the climate system but, as it is an extremely fast growing energy consumer, it is assumed that air transport will be an important factor governing climate in the future.

http://www.atmosphere.mpg.de/enid/206.html

[Sore Throat]

Given the ever growing scientific consensus on the reality and consequences of accelerated climate change, why wouldn't those in power employ any and all means necessary to combat and/or mitigate the harmful effects?

Isn't that the charge given to our elected leadership?

Numerous proposals have been made for injecting particulate matter into the high atmosphere to offset the effects of gloabl warming as a result of increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

Given that the United States has not agreed to reduce CO2 as mandated by the Kyoto Accord, why wouldn't the leadership of this country employ means to mitigate the undesirable consequences of global warming.

Why wouldn't they take this step?

Why would they allow conditions to continue to worsen with incrasing losses of life and property?

Certainly the insurance comapnies are sounding an alarm that they are becoming burdened by ever growing weather related claims in the billions of dollars.

Why would those in positions of power not use mitigation porgrams?

What rational argument could be made against their deployment?

************************************************** ******

Speaking of accelerating climate change, check out the following:

http://wwwa.accuweather.com/adcbin/public/headlines.asp?iws=0

Hurricane` Heading Toward Southern Brazil!



A South Atlantic Tropical Cyclone!?! Most literature dealing with tropical weather would agree: hurricanes are unknown over the southern Atlantic Ocean. Yet, as of early Friday, a storm with a well-formed eye about 300 miles east of southern Brazil has all the look of a hurricane. If indeed this is a tropical cyclone, it did not begin in the usual way; rather, it began as an ordinary "cool" trough that sat over warm seas for a few days. The atmospheric setting must have been "just right" to allow this trough to strengthen markedly while altering from cool-core to warm-core, and thus tropical, in nature.

Only one similar event has been recorded, and that was by the U.S. National Hurricane Center in 1991 when a strong tropical depression that formed off the west-central African coast moved into the central South Atlantic.

For a satellite picture of this event, please check the other AccuWeather.com Weather News Headlines

[Yaak]

Sore Throat, simple questions for you: do you believe that jet aircraft condensation trails are intentionally being caused to persist?
If so, wouldn’t these condensation trails cause global warming?
This is what your documentation suggests, yet you claim that these contrails/chemtrails are being used to slow global warming.
Which is it?
-----------------------
Sore Throat states, “If the diehard debunkers can't honestly acknowledge the documented and growing impacts of aircraft emissions on the global atmosphere....”

I do not know or care whether or not you classify me as a “diehard debunker”, but I do acknowledge the documented and growing impacts of aircraft emissions on the global atmosphere right along with the emissions of cars, trucks and power plants. Do you believe that jet aircraft condensation trails are intentionally being caused to persist?

Friends of the Earth
Aren’t they a swell bunch of eco-terrorists, destroying private and public property? Is that whom you associate yourself with, Sore Throat? Do you believe that jet aircraft condensation trails are intentionally being caused to persist?

[Yaak]

Foot Soldier and Sore Throat,

Do you not think it is way past time for you to disassociate yourselves from the “chem-kooks” so that your research on aviation damage to the atmosphere will be acknowledged and respected?

Also, are you confused? On one hand, you claim that persistent contrails are causing global warming, on the other you claim they are being used to prevent or slow global warming. Which is it?

[jayreynolds]

About this page:
author: Elmar Uherek - MPI Mainz
first version: 2003-07-09
educational proofreading: Michael Seesing - Uni Duisburg - 2003-08-07
corrections and improvements: 2003-08-08

Aviation today and tomorrow

It's not easy to estimate the impact of aviation on our climate today and even more difficult to determine what effect it will have in the future. Up until recently, the aviation industry had little impact on the climate system but, as it is an extremely fast growing energy consumer, it is assumed that air transport will be an important factor governing climate in the future.

http://www.atmosphere.mpg.de/enid/206.html

Don't you understand what you just did, Deborah?

The photo on the page you linked to is labeled-


"6. Contrails and cirrus clouds: Contrails (condensation trails) are formed from the condensation of water emitted by planes. Some studies show that cirrus cloud formation is favoured by the existence of contrails. Photo: (c) Bernhard Mühr, Karlsruher Wolkenatlas. Please click to enlarge! (50 K)"


http://www.atmosphere.mpg.de/media/archive/1441.jpg

The photo is by the same weather photographer(Bernhard Meuhr) from which 'Sore' lifted his picture from to use in propagandizing people that contrails are "chemtrails".
Remember, the post he called
"ChemTrail Pics?"

It's the sixth picture from the top.
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002064.html

hey, folks, if you view the 'Sore' post above, and click 'edit' -then- 'select all' on your computer, you will highlight the text that 'Sore' didn't want you to see, it reads- "[Edited 13 times, lastly by Sore Throat on 03-24-2004]"

'Sore' did that little 'tricksie' the day after he posted the pics because I showed that he had lifted photos known to be ordinary contrails from legitimate photographer's websites violating copyrights, and was lying about them, calling them "ChemTrails".

Like traveller said this morning, "I haven't seen a couple of chemies get bitchslapped by the truth so hard they don't realize that at this point they've actual proved their arguements are false."

http://com1.runboard.com/b13thcentury.fthenewdebunkatorium.t53

====================
The problem you two chemmies really have is that indeed you've debunked yourselves. :lol:

Priceless!

[jayreynolds]

IGNORE HIM[Jay Reynolds] BEFORE YOU GO BANANAS
Hey, Liakopoulos is onto something there, I think I've driven them totally insane!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I have to shut down, this is too much.

[Yaak]

Quote:
"The problem you two chemmies really have is that indeed you've debunked yourselves.

Priceless!"


EXACTLY :lol:

[liakopoulos]

DEAR JAY, LONELINES IS YOUR PUNISHMENT. YOU ARE GETTING MORE AND MORE LONELY. YOUR GUNG FLEW AWAY. AS FOR THE OTHERS ,THEY ARE NOT INSANE ,YOU SIMPLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE STATEMENTS OF SCIENTIEST, BEING A POOR SHIP TOILET DESIGNER. BY THE WAY ,AND JUST BETWEEN FRIENDS, IF YOU HAVE COME UP WITH A BRIGHT NEW IDEA ABOUT SHIP TOILET DESIGNING PLEASE LET ME KNOW BECAUSE I'M ABOUT TO BY A BOAT.YOU ARE INVITED OF COURSE ,FOR A CRUISE AROUND THE GREEK ISLANDS. BEST REGARDS....

[foot_soldier]

Dirty Pictures
http://www.zedetcetera.co.uk/DIRTY%20PICTURES.pdf

Thanks for the support, Yaak. I always thought you were a pretty articulate and perceptive individual, able to see beyond the BS and to recognize PROCESS for what it is. I see now that you're just another brick in the wall.

Regretfully,
foot_soldier

[gaiacomm]

still say that all should ignore Jay and his group. All they do is feed on reactions from their predictable questions and answers.

They are like a fly buzzing around a picnic table that just left a dead carcass and laid eggs to be maggots to later land on your food.

So just move the picnic table inside! The flies will not get in!

Just look at pages and pages of data some good some not.

Jay is not an authority on Chemtrails or Contrails. It is a hobby for him to play with. Jay designs and builds toilets for ships! And is a farmer that grows food in bad ground.

He has a website that is a clear indication of his personality. Just look at the design and layout.

Jay has found a niche section of the internet where he thinks he can rule as long as he pays his internet access bill each month.

Jay is a cyberjunkie who depends on the internet to get him out of the house and away from his family.

Jay will follow you like a bad virus. But you can rid the virus by giving it the "HAND".

Jay, Got milk?

[airtankerpilot]

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992926

Aircraft vapour trails are climate scourge

Airlines could boost their emissions of the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide and still halve their impact on global warming. That is the paradoxical conclusion of a new study into the effects of commercial aviation on the environment.



The CO2 emitted from their engines is not the only way aircraft affect climate. They also do so through their contrails, the long trails of water vapour and ice that form in an aircraft's wake and which can persist for several hours. Contrails trap heat in the atmosphere by reflecting infrared radiation emitted from the Earth's surface.

In 1999 the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) calculated that contrails from the world fleet of 12,000 civil airliners contribute as much to global warming as the CO2 their engines pour out as they burn jet fuel.

But global air traffic is growing by around 3.5 per cent per year, and many of those extra flights are long-haul, high-altitude, contrail-forming journeys. So by 2050 contrails will be having a great deal more of an impact on global warming than the CO2 emissions from aircraft engines.

At a price

Contrails could be eliminated if aircraft reduced their altitude from about 33,000 feet to between 24,000 feet and 31,000 feet, depending on the weather.

Duncan Graham-Rowe

Thanks for a great article debunking chemtrails. I really think we need to make you an honorary debunker, because if you believe this article, you can not believe in chemtrails.

If persistent contrails would be reduced to flying at warmer altitudes, then obviously they are just made of ice crystals.

If those contrails were made up of (barium, aluminum, red blood cell soup, AIDS, SARS, Cold virus, flu, etc), then altitude flown at would not have an impact on the trail visibilility and persistence.

Personally, I have a lot of doubts than it would just be a 4% reduction in fuel burned, from going in the 30k feet levels, down to the 20's. I do not have any jet performance charts, but in piston aircraft, a change of 2000 ft in altitude will have a 4% change in fuel burn over distance.

As for the other article you have posted, of course airlines want the most fuel effecient engines they can get. They have already made huge strides over jet engines from the 60's and 70s. Current high bypass turbofans are much much more efficient than turbojets and earlier turbofans.

Airlines arent even making money right now, of course if they would be wanting more efficient engines if they were out there, and Boeing would love to have anything that would give it extra range. The next generation Boeing widebody will burn about 25% less fuel than current 767 model.

If your goal is a reduction in aviation or the elimination of it, well just say it. Why link up with internet kooks, just because they have a conspiracy maligning aviation and the personnel in it.

[jayreynolds]

"Why link up with internet kooks, just because they have a conspiracy maligning aviation and the personnel in it?"

The choice was made for these two many long years ago. When they give in and finally admit the truth, they will set themselves free, and have the potential to do so for many others.

However, the price for freedom is high. They wil lose 90% of the so-called 'friends' they have in the chemtrail cult. Not a real loss, BTW, because those old friends will show themselves for the jerks that they really are. They will be scourged, banned, and disrespected, called "turncoat", "double agent", and "coward".

Just ask Deb Phalen. 'Sore' and Deborah said all those things about her, why should they expect any better treatment than what they themselves dished out? When she and many others were banned, they were giddy with joy- "Drinks all 'round!", and celebratory.

But they will be free. Free of the shame that chains them to alias', free from making up lie after lie to cover up the last lie. Hey, they'll even be free to answer those pesky questions honestly, won't that be a relief.

All this hinges on whether, or not, they have enough self-respect to go against the tide, to take the high road, and start over, and to publicly withstand what people say when you are proven terribly, terribly wrong.

Oh, well.
I can at least dream, can't I?

[gaiacomm]

still say that all should ignore Jay and his group. All they do is feed on reactions from their predictable questions and answers.

They are like a fly buzzing around a picnic table that just left a dead carcass and laid eggs to be maggots to later land on your food.

So just move the picnic table inside! The flies will not get in!

Just look at pages and pages of data some good some not.

Jay is not an authority on Chemtrails or Contrails. It is a hobby for him to play with. Jay designs and builds toilets for ships! And is a farmer that grows food in bad ground.

He has a website that is a clear indication of his personality. Just look at the design and layout.

Jay has found a niche section of the internet where he thinks he can rule as long as he pays his internet access bill each month.

Jay is a cyberjunkie who depends on the internet to get him out of the house and away from his family.

Jay will follow you like a bad virus. But you can rid the virus by giving it the "HAND".

Jay, Got milk?

[Sore Throat]

No debunker has answered the question.

Given that we are experiencing accelerating climate change, and the consequent impacts, and given our country's unwilling to cooperate with other industrial countires to reduce CO2 emissions, why wouldn't the govenment employ mitigation projects to limits the results of increasing greenhouse gases?

Since you all seem to be so absolutely CERTAIN that this could never happen, just what would be the rationale for not undertaking such a project?

You all seem more than willing to share your truths on otehr matters...

What frightens you about this simple question?

And here Yaak, I'll answer yours...

Yes, I think that some aircraft emissions are being altered to become more persistent.

Nothing new about that....it's a position I've held and shared for five years.

Now...back to the question that appears to frightens you.

Why wouldn't the government institute an atmospheric modification project to mitigate the effects of global warming?

[halva]

Liakopoulos, it is more important for you to retain credibility among "chemtrails" investigators and those concerned with climate change in Greece than it is for you to reach an understanding, or whatever it is you want to do, with Reynolds.

It's a shame that you can't adhere to your original insight that Reynolds for you is a bad habit. He did not challenge you as he did me and staying at this forum is not a question of honour for you.

And Gaiacomm, your conscience does not seem to be giving you the message also that there is no point in your posting here unless you have new information to add.

[jayreynolds]

The 'Sore' question is not a question of fact, rather it is a hypothetical, based on a "given". Still, I personally engage in both mitigation and CO2 production. I plant trees and crops, I use solar energy, I live in an energy efficient house heated with renewable fuel and which needs no air-conditioning. I doubt that 'Sore' does any of thee things. He might wear birkenstocks.....

All of these are 'MITIGATION".

I personally engage in many of the mitigation strategies mentioned in the NAS report. They are not really a big deal, and some of them(not all) actually save me money.

I find the claim that our government is conducting a worldwide massive covert geoengineering project in the middle of crowded open skies, under broad daylight conditions, to be ludicrous. It is not happening.

Such a claim is the least likely mitigation scenario I could think of, and one which would be impossible to hide from anyone genuinely
determined to discover it.

I personally investigated these claims and identified that the planes which left the alleged "chemtrails" were making ordinary jet engine contrails. Deborah and 'Sore' know all about using Flight Explorer and have probably done the same. If they had found Thermit's results reproducible they would be throwing it in our faces, reams of it, daily. They are liars, and they know it.

The fact remains that they produce no tangible evidence for the "chemtrail" hoax.

There, Throat, I answered your question.

Now that they have suddenly become willing to discuss ordinary contrails, they have begun to display copious examples of ordinary contrails which appear exactly like what they formerly called "chemtrails".

I find that a fascinating turn of events which needs explanation, not obfuscation. This needs to be delved into much much deeper, and Yaak's question was left begging answers!

However, you dodged Yaak's question. It was, in full:
"Sore Throat, simple questions for you: do you believe that jet aircraft condensation trails are intentionally being caused to persist?
If so, wouldn’t these condensation trails cause global warming?
This is what your documentation suggests, yet you claim that these contrails/chemtrails are being used to slow global warming.
Which is it?"

===========================
'Sore' responded to the first part but dodged the second-
He wrote:
"Yes, I think that some aircraft emissions are being altered to become more persistent. Nothing new about that....it's a position I've held and shared for five years."

So, 'Sore', "Which is it?"

Oh, and what about these questions from four pages ago, what is it about these questions that cuts to the quick, that opens the doors, that lays bare the rotten core of the "chemtrails" hoax?

1.) Chemtrails cause global warming, contrails prevent it
2.) Chemtrails prevent global warming, contrails cause it
3.) Chemtrails and contrails cause global warming
4.) Chemtrails and contrails prevent global warming
5.) Chemtrails are a hoax, and contrails may eventually contribute to global warming
6.) It doesn't really matter because the Earth is going into a cooling cycle (which will no doubt be blamed on geo-engineering / chemtrails

And lest we forget, the ten deadly questions left unanswered ON PAGE FIFTY FIVE NOW!

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. What is your claim about the purpose of "chemtrails, what are they for?

[jayreynolds]

Isn't it interesting how halva is telling giacon to shut up because of the poor showing he makes, and telling Liakopoulos to shut up because he is surely showing the world that he is a racist bastard and ascientific illiterate, and not to forget, Mech was just telling halva to shut up because he is tired of greek communists telling Amercan's what to do?

I'd love to be a fly on the wall and able to see the Personal Messages's screaming away between all these people, considering what they put our for public consumption!

'Sore'- "You damn bitch, what the hell did you go and post that Bernhard Muehr picture of contrails, I said they were "chemtrails", dammit."

'footsoldier'- "And, like, I was the one who, like, left the friggin' cat out of the bag with all the contrails stuff, helllooooo, you are, like, TOTALLY STUPID?"

'Liakopoulos'- "I WILL DEEESSSTROY ZIONIST PIGS. IT WILL BE THE FEENAL SALVOLUTION"

'Amber'- "Like, fer sure, Chem11 says you guys better get your act together, yer lookin grody to the max, like, gag me with a spoon."

HILARIOUS!

[halva]

There is no acrimonious e-mail communication going on behind the scenes, at least none that I am involved in.

[halva]

Also the strategy that I have been pursuing this year since publishing this:

http://www.spectrezine.org/global/Hall.htm

is at least one factor in the blurring of distinctions between the chemtrails and the climate change debates, including the contribution of 'conventional' aviation.

Doubtless there are others. I don't know whether footsoldier or Sore Throat could be bothered explaining to you what they are. If I were they I wouldn 't.

Your pretensions to being able to influence footsoldier's or Sore Throat's acceptability as participants in the climate change debate are ridiculous.

[gaiacomm]

Mr. Hall,

After reading your essay and following the various links to the other socialist sites and etc. I now understand why we met. Thank you for finally pointing me in a direction that allows me to further pursue my goals.

Good-bye and Good-luck!



Wayne Hall
The deadlock between on the one hand environmental NGOs warning of the dangers of global warming and on the other hand spokespersons for the United States government has on the face of it many similarities with the inertial deadlock of the later Cold War period (as analysed by the theorists of the non-aligned peace movements in the 1980s).



Just as the SALT treaties for the reduction of strategic nuclear armaments were continually obstructed by Republicans in the U.S. Senate in the 70s, so the 1997 Treaty of Kyoto – a very inadequate first step towards curbing carbon dioxide emissions in the atmosphere – is being blocked by the intransigence of their present-day counterparts (including, once again, a Russian element, for the Russian government’s support for Kyoto has been looking decidedly shaky since early December 2003).



The anti-nuclear weapons movement that arose in Europe in the 80s represented an attempt to break through the deadlock of the Cold War system. The approach was epitomised in the writings of E.P. Thompson, whose answer to the question: ‘What is the Cold War about?’ was: ‘It is about itself. The Cold War is a show which was put, by two rival entrepreneurs, upon the road in 1946 or 1947.’



The nuclear arms race, which should have been brought to an end in 1991, was an objective product of the Cold War deadlock. The global warming deadlock has generated a corresponding ‘objective product’, whose outlines can be seen emerging in the global warming debate that was taking place in the mid-nineties. It is called ‘geoengineering’. At the time of the Kyoto conference (and for a time afterwards) a number of articles were appearing in the popular scientific press that appeared to be trying to rally public support for geoengineering.



One of their favourite themes was that global warming is a technical, not a moral problem and so should not be allowed to be the monopoly of ecological non-governmental organizations pursuing an anti-development agenda. Such organizations were later said to be responsible for the decision at Kyoto to impose a fifteen percent cut on global emissions of greenhouse gases over the next decade. Economically this was seen as an indefensible decision , one likely to cost in the order of $250 billion a year, without taking into account the cost of losing the goods, services and innovations whose production would be halted or forgone.



The geoengineering proposal of consciously altering atmospheric chemistry and conditions, of mitigating the effects of greenhouse gases, was put forward as an alternative to calling for reduction of carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide emissions.



Geoengineering included land, sea and air-based components. Some of the remedies it was proposing, like large-scale planting of trees, appeared uncontroversial and in fact worthy of support. Others, such as the ‘Geritol’ cure of sowing iron filings into the oceans to stimulate the growth of carbon-consuming phytoplankton, seemed more problematic. Others again, such as the ‘sunscreen’ proposal of scattering millions of tons of metallic particles in the atmosphere to reflect sunlight back into space before it could be emitted in heat radiation and then absorbed by carbon dioxide, were probably judged by most geoengineering theorists to be virtually impossible to sell to the public.



Nevertheless, in the mid-nineties, valiant attempts were made to give geoengineering a good name. Gregory Benford, professor of physics at the University of California, estimated that the Arctic and Antarctic Oceans could be seeded with iron dust for between $10 million and $1 billion a year. 15 ships steaming across the polar oceans all year long, dumping iron dust in lanes, would bring the total to around $10 billion. ‘This would soak up about a third of our global fossil-fuel generated carbon dioxide emissions each year.’



‘Even better than dust would be microscopic droplets of sulphuric acid. Sulphate aerosols can also raise the number of droplets that make clouds condense, further increasing overall reflectivity. Coal-burning freighter ships releasing sulphates into the atmosphere could also spread iron dust into the sea, combining both approaches, with some economies.’

Probably the best-known of the aerial geoengineering proposals was that put forward in 1997 by Edward Teller and entitled ‘Global Warming and the Ice Ages: Prospects for Physics-Based Modulation of Global Change’ subsequently popularised in the Wall Street Journal in an article entitled ‘The Planet Needs a Sunscreen’.

Teller proposed deliberate, large-scale introduction of reflective particles into the upper atmosphere, a task he claimed could be achieved for less than $1 billion a year, between 0.1 and 1.0 percent of the $100 billion he estimated it would cost to bring fossil fuel usage in the United States back down to 1990 levels, as required by the Treaty of Kyoto.

Characteristic of the politics of Teller is the fact that he both ridiculed the idea of global warming and at the same time put forward what he represented as a solution to global warming. ‘For some reason,’ Teller observed sarcastically, ‘This option isn't as fashionable as all-out war on fossil fuels and the people who use them.’

Teller, who is of course known to history as the father of the hydrogen bomb and of the Star Wars missile defence programme, has not always succeeded in getting his pet schemes adopted. His ambitious plan, for example, for using hydrogen bombs to construct harbours in the United States, never made the move from the drawing board into reality. His sarcasm reflected a genuine problem: that of persuading the public that permanent mobilisation of thousands of aircraft to fly day and night, 365 days a year, over land and sea spraying toxic metals over the human, animal and plant populations underneath is a desirable, or even in any way defensible, proposal.

Gregory Benford was sensitive to the public relations difficulties. He said: “If geoengineers are painted early and often as Dr. Strangeloves of the air, they will fail. Properly portrayed as allies of science--and true environmentalism--they could become heroes. Not letting the radical greens set the terms of discussion will matter crucially. ”

One theoretician who helped keep radical greens out of the debate, and may even have succeeded in co-opting some radical greens into the debate, was the Stanford University environmental law student Jay Michaelson, whose ‘Geo-engineering: A Climate Change Manhattan Project’, was published in 1998 in his university’s environmental law journal. Like the name of Edward Teller, the title of Michaelson’s paper is a standing reminder of the continuity between geoengineering and the nuclear arms race. The paper is a masterful attempt to defend the indefensible. Asserting that geoengineering offers hope for solving climate change ‘beyond the too-little, too-lates of Kyoto’, Michaelson’s basic thesis is that ‘in a world where it is very expensive to reduce greenhouse emissions, those who care about the problem should support a policy that will work with those who don’t.’

Michaelson outlines three possible responses to climate change: 1) addressing its root causes, 2) doing nothing and adapting to climate change as it occurs and 3) trying to solve the climate change problem directly via geoengineering.

The impediments to addressing the root causes are the economic cost of cutting back on fossil fuel use, the social costs in a context of generalised dependence on automobiles, the question of equity, given the objection of the nations of the South to having to bear the cost of problems created by the North, and the harsh fact that enforcement of a regulatory regime forces most countries to go against their immediate interests.

The advantages of the second alternative, doing nothing, is that if predictions are correct, climate change is soon going to cease to be what Michaelson calls ‘an absent problem’. Increasingly disastrous evidence of the reality of climatic change will probably make it easier to gain consensus on preventive regulation. But the problem by then will have become one of choice of priorities: what and who should be saved and what and who abandoned?

These disadvantages led Michaelson, as he says, to the third solution of geoengineering. Geoengineering would shift priorities away from researching into whether the globe is warming into practical solutions that can be started immediately. It would not necessitate making greater demands on the developing world than on developed countries. It would indeed allow the developing world to be ‘a free rider’ on a project financed mostly by the industrialized nations. ‘Because it would restrict growth in the developing world less than regulation would, it would allow developing nations to progress more quickly away from the serious environmental threats of unsafe water, unhealthy air, and topsoil loss, through proven means such as sewage treatment, newer (cleaner) automobiles and factories, and modern agriculture.’ By relying on technological innovation and development, geoengineering would increase the role of private actors relative to that of government. Instead of requiring widespread enforcement of complex and growth-threatening rules, geoengineering would give private firms a financial incentive to help solve the climate change problem.’

For all his ostensible commitment to geoengineering, Michaelson conceded that in the final analysis ‘geoengineering runs afoul of almost every major trend in contemporary environmentalism.’ “‘Geritol cures’ and ‘earth sunscreens’ treat shallow symptoms, not deep causes, and fail to ‘kill two birds with one stone’ as would a serious programme of combating deforestation or cutting greenhouse gas emissions’”. There is much circumstantial evidence that he would really have liked the controversial character of his own proposals to contribute to developing a political climate that would make possible the implementation of real solutions to global warming. ‘If serious debate were to emerge,’ he says, ‘shock at geoengineering might wane in the context of rational reflection of the costs of climate change.’ But for the emergence of such a serious debate to be triggered by public shock at realisation of what is being proposed, and not only proposed but done, by the geoengineers, geoengineering must be publicly acknowledged, must be the subject of public debate, like genetically modified foods, cloning or nuclear power, all of which have interest groups publicly lobbying for and against them.

The wholehearted public embrace of geoengineering advocated by Benford, Michaelson and others in the nineties has not happened. The media has not tried to make geoengineers into heroes and portray them as allies of science and true environmentalism. Many global warming sceptics are even on record as saying that reports of geoengineering activities - aircraft engaged in large-scale spraying of aerosols in the upper atmosphere, could not be genuine - that such activities could not be occurring because they are not needed and would be criminal.

The big environmental NGOs such as Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth or WWF do not try to glamorise or otherwise promote geoengineering. They simply act as if it is not occurring. Their silence, to look at its positive aspect, possibly reflects a refusal to be associated with the task of making geoengineering look respectable.

The ‘invisibility’ of geoengineering is perpetuated through official denial. The US Air Force, whose KC-135R and KC-10 tanker planes have become a familiar sight in many different parts of the world as they engage in the daily particulate scattering operations of the ‘sunscreen’ programme, on its official site describes eyewitness accounts of these operations as ‘a hoax that has been around since 1996.’ ‘The Air Force’, it says ‘is not conducting any weather modification experiments or programs and has no plans to do so in the future.’ The ‘hoax’ accusation is energetically echoed by the seemingly large numbers of ‘debunkers’ frequenting chemtrail/geoengineering discussion forums, generating considerable confusion, as well as resentment at their characterisation as ‘chemmies’ (a variant on ‘commies’) those who wish to draw attention to the mysterious lines in the sky. Moreover, all elected politicians in the world above the municipal level, if they have heard at all of geoengineering, believe, or profess to believe, the official story that the sunscreen climate mitigation programme is ‘a hoax’.

One reason for the successful conspiracy of silence may well be the still unresolved status of geoengineering under international law. This is an issue that was being investigated, again in the mid-nineties, by the environmental lawyer Bodansky. Among the questions he raised were: who should make geoengineering decisions? Should all countries be able to participate in decision-making? (since all will be affected and there will be both positive and negative impacts). How should liability and compensation for damages be handled? From the legal viewpoint, schemes to inject particles into the atmosphere are purportedly among the most problematic of all geoengineering proposals because the atmosphere above any country is part of its airspace. Nations lay claim to their airspace and may act on the claims, for example, by shooting down aircraft. Geoengineering activity in the atmosphere could be viewed as infringements of national sovereignty. Obviously, the simplest way of dealing with legal problems of this kind, pending negotiation of the necessary adjustments to international law, is to deny that any such activity is occurring.

The publication on the internet in 2003 of an interview with an alleged ‘insider’ of the sunscreen programme (this is not its official name) working at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory cast further light on the difficulties involved in trying to promote a favourable image of geoengineering. Starting from the question of why polymer threads embedded with ‘biological material’ have been found in residues from aerosol spraying, the insider (given the pseudonym ‘Deep Shield’) explained that ‘since the suspended particles eventually do settle into the lowest part of the atmosphere and are inhaled by all life forms on the surface, there is an attempt to counter the growth of mould by adding to the mixture mould growth suppressants, some of which may be of biological material.’

Deep Shield acknowledged the potential of the aerosol spaying to cause sickness: ‘Some people are more sensitive to the metals, while others are sensitive to the polymer chemicals. It is true that people will get sick, and some will die. The World Health Organization has carried out most of the relevant studies. Some have said the ill effects will be minimal, along the lines of a million or so, while others have found the numbers to be far higher – 3 or 4 billion. The Accepted Estimated Casualties (from the World Health Organization) is 2 billion over the course of six decades. The majority will be either the elderly or those who are prone to respiratory problems.’

Emphasising the ‘globalist’ aspects of the operations and the need to ‘ensure the chemicals are not tampered with’ Deep Shield claims that ‘they are mixed and sprayed over random nations. This means that chemicals produced in the USA have a good chance of being sprayed over Russia. Russian planes may be seen in US skies, but so too will US planes be seen in Russian skies. The canisters are sealed in a third nation that has no idea where its canister is going. All of this is to ensure that that the shield is not used as a weapon. Non-participant nations are sprayed by participant nations, who must spray in order to get enough material to maintain their nation’s shield. It is understood that not spraying is as much a military offence as shooting at the planes.’

One implication of this spraying of non-participant nations by ‘participant nations’ is that, following the defeat of Saddam Hussein’s Ba’ath regime in Iraq, all of the Middle East – possibly including Israel, where spraying has started in recent months – is now being sprayed from bases in Iraq.

According to Deep Shield ordinary commercial aircraft are involved in the particulate scattering operations and are not diverted from their regular flight paths. ‘But the combined resources of the nations of earth are not enough to allow constant spraying. Though we have achieved a high level of technology, there is a great surface area that needs to be covered nearly daily. Large sections of ocean are all but ignored. The remaining land masses are more than what can be covered efficiently.’

Far from seeing his work as something to be proudly publicised, Deep Shield sees the existing secrecy as necessary to maintain public calm for as long as possible: ‘The Earth is dying. Humanity is on the road to extinction. Without the shield, mankind will die off within twenty to fifty years. Most people alive today could live to see this extinction take place. This means that an announcement of the situation we face boils down to telling every man, woman and child on earth that they have no future, they are going to be killed. People would panic. There would be economic collapse, the production and movement of goods would collapse. Millions would die in all cities on earth. Riots and violence would reduce civilian centres to rubble within days.’

The secrecy of the sunscreen project was justified to him, Deep Shield says, on grounds of national security. ‘All those who know are expected to remain silent. All those who suspect are either faced with trying to prove the virtually unprovable or are faced with good enough reasons to remain silent. I would assume that this situation is worldwide and this could be considered as one of the dangers of the project. I can see why there is a desire to repress the information, not that spraying is taking place but the face that we are facing a period of human history which might be the end of civilization.’

The stance of Deep Shield is deeply irrational, permeated by the same psychosis as the US government’s ‘War on Terrorism’. People whose conscience is clear do not think in this way. What Deep Shield says is nothing more or less than what many, particularly in the ecological milieu say to themselves, and to others, every day: that humanity is on the path to self-destruction. National security classification of the sunscreen project is absolutely unjustifiable and in total contradiction to the logic, however unconvincing, within which geoengineering was proposed as one of a number of possible answers to climatic change. Geoengineering was meant to be not simply a substitution for real action on the environment, but also possibly a facilitator of, and adjunct to, real action on the environment. Something it cannot be if it remains secret.

David Stewart, who took the ‘Deep Shield’ interviews, has quoted Deep Shield more recently as saying that the project is failing to do what it should do. He reports arguments (screaming matches) among the top brass and civilian-dressed military who come and go at the Lawrence Livermore laboratory. The arguments appear to Deep Shield to be about the expense of the project, the effectiveness and, more generally, the long-term outlook for humanity. Although there is no visible stack of bodies, as Stewart puts it, of people killed by the aerosol spraying, there is growing evidence of people dying from diseases plausibly traceable to the project. One black spot for casualties is in East Texas, where the initial tests for the spraying materials were carried out in the mid-90s. Projections of 1000% increases in Alzheimer’s disease, one of the side-effects of excessive exposure to aluminium, over the next decades, have emerged in the media in the last year or so.

The sunscreen project is not the only reason for which aerosol spraying is taking place in the atmosphere. Spraying is also being carried out to increase electrical conductivity in the atmosphere, facilitating the operations of HAARP, the High Frequency Active Aural Research Program, in Alaska. Also, some reports of the presence of disease bacteria in aerosol spaying do not fit in with Deep Shield’s explanation of biological materials being spayed to combat the growth of mould. This suggests that black operations are also in progress, parasitic on the pseudo-public-interest applications of geoengineering technology and on personnel who believe that the purpose of their work is the mitigation of climate change. If the sunscreen project is being used as a cover for other even more illegal and apparently criminal purposes, this is another argument for opposing its secrecy.

Many other issues require investigation. Is the current bonanza of cut-price airline tickets being supported by state subsidies to airlines for their services in spreading particulate matter? If so, and if Deep Shield’s statements on the financing of the sunscreen project are correct, then this is being done at taxpayers’ expense. Quite apart from any economic aspects, how sane is it, to have ever larger numbers of aircraft clogging the skies and burning ever larger amounts of fuel, in order to facilitate management of global warming caused by excessive burning of fossil fuel? Can a policy of moving to non-fossil-fuel based economy really be developed side by side with climate mitigation policies of this kind, if that is what they are?

Since the appearance of the first comprehensive study of global warming by the American National Academy of Sciences in 1992, the geoengineering debate has passed through a number of stages. The mid-nineties (the period before and after Kyoto) was the period of hype, of extravagant claims. The post-Kyoto period, apparently the period when policy began to be implemented, was the period when the respectable proposals of the day before suddenly became 'conspiracy theory'. The present period is one of controlled re-introduction of the subject, in such a way as not to expose the lies and omissions of the preceding phase.

A recent article in the British ‘Guardian’, under the title: ‘Earth is 20% darker, say experts’, reveals that ‘Human activity is making the planet darker as well as warmer.’ Scientists believe that ‘levels of sunlight reaching Earth's surface have declined by up to 20% in recent years because air pollution is reflecting it back into space and helping to make bigger, longer-lasting clouds.’ A certain Jim Hansen, climate scientist with Nasa, is quoted as saying; "Over the past couple of years it's become clear that the solar irradiance at the Earth's surface has decreased." The article claims that global dimming is probably caused by ‘tiny particles such as soot, and chemical compounds such as sulphates accumulating in the atmosphere.’

Returning to the subject of the deadlock over the Treaty of Kyoto engendered by the argument between defenders and opponents of global warming (or by the unilateralism of the United States government, as European and other international politicians like to tell us), the international environmental organizations such as Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth and WWF have shown through their silence on geoengineering that they are unwilling to help make it respectable by lending support to it. They should be given credit for that. But there remains the task of breaching the secrecy that surrounds the subject. Given that the ecological organizations are clearly not going to do this, we must initiate discussions with them to decide who should be assigned the task. Who is going to bell the cat?

(The author is a founding member of ATTAC-Hellas). Reader's comments or further information on this subject are very welcome.

[foot_soldier]

From the above-posted analysis:

Coal-burning freighter ships releasing sulphates into the atmosphere...
I think that is interesting. Emissions from "coal-burning" sources releasing cooling sulphates into the atmosphere.

[foot_soldier]

"Sore Throat" wrote:

Given that we are experiencing accelerating climate change, and the consequent impacts, and given our country's unwillingness to cooperate with other industrial countires to reduce CO2 emissions, why wouldn't the govenment employ mitigation projects to limit the results of increasing greenhouse gases?
The United States government is in fact employing mitigation projects to limit the damaging impacts of accelerating atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration. The Bush administration's favored solution is geological carbon dioxide sequestration, and preparation for large-scale implementation of this technology is currently well underway.

[Yaak]

Foot Soldier said,
‘Thanks for the support, Yaak. I always thought you were a pretty articulate and perceptive individual, able to see beyond the BS and to recognize PROCESS for what it is. I see now that you're just another brick in the wall.”

Obviously, I have hurt your feelings. Why else would you resort to attempting to humiliate and insult me? In your own words this is “bloodsport”. Somewhere back in these 50+ pages you claimed that this thread was a waste of time, yet you chose to continue in this free-for-all over whether or not chemtrails exist.

You chose to ignore my question, “Foot Soldier, so that we can exchange information and views in a more efficient manner, do you believe that jet aircraft condensation trails are intentionally being caused to persist?“
If I don’t know where you stand, then I have no way of knowing whether or not I am posting something that offends you. I find it offensive when people refuse to answer simple questions.

I may be “just another brick in the wall”, but at least it isn’t a wall at a mental health institution.

I suppose all of this bickering means you won’t marry me now.

[liakopoulos]

DEAR MR HALL, I JOINED THIS FORUM, THAT PROOVED TO BE A NON SCIENTIFIC TRAVESTY, BECAUSE I THOUGHT THAT COMON SENSE WOULD BE PRESENT HERE. UNFORTUNATELLY YOU ARE GIVING ME AND GAIACOMM THE INSTRUCTION, NOT TO ANSWER THE RACISTIC INSALTS OF JAY RAYNOLDS. SO, I HAVE A SIMPLE QUESTION. WHO INVITED A TOILET DESIGNER LIKE RAYNOLDS TO THIS FORUM, AND WHO GAVE HIM THE RIGHT TO ADRESS TO US IN AN INSULTING MANNER?

[foot_soldier]

I think my posts are as clear an indication of "where I stand" as it is possible to convey at any given time. I am a process-oriented person and I will not be constrained by pressure to adhere to static and arbitrary terms of engagement in an open public venue.

My answer to "Yaak's" specific question is this:

It is my observation that a large percentage of jet aircraft condensation trails are significantly, and noticably much more frequently, more persistent since approximately 1999. I think this is a situation which is being ALLOWED to continue. I do not think that seeing our skies continually cluttered with, if not completely obliterated by, persistent jet condensation trails and their resulting aviation cirrus is a normal or healthy situation. That this situation is being allowed to continue when it is known for a fact that aviation cirrus traps greenhouse gas heat at Earth's surface indicates to me that there may be a deliberate purpose involved. My number one vote for "deliberate purpose" would be attempted reduction of incoming solar radiation, specifically UV-b.

[halva]

DEAR MR HALL, I JOINED THIS FORUM, THAT PROOVED TO BE A NON SCIENTIFIC TRAVESTY, BECAUSE I THOUGHT THAT COMON SENSE WOULD BE PRESENT HERE. UNFORTUNATELLY YOU ARE GIVING ME AND GAIACOMM THE INSTRUCTION, NOT TO ANSWER THE RACISTIC INSALTS OF JAY RAYNOLDS. SO, I HAVE A SIMPLE QUESTION. WHO INVITED A TOILET DESIGNER LIKE RAYNOLDS TO THIS FORUM, AND WHO GAVE HIM THE RIGHT TO ADRESS TO US IN AN INSULTING MANNER?

Dimo, given that Reynolds' slanderous attack on me is the second posting on this thread I do not know what could possibly have given you the idea that common sense was going to be present here. The tone was set right from the beginning.

And unlike me, who did not know that Reynolds was going to come here when I posted my first post, you could see exactly what you were joining when you joined.

As I have twice reminded you, you quickly and correctly concluded that talking to Reynolds is a bad habit, but for some reason you seem to have changed your mind about this and now want to argue with him. Why?

The answer as to who invited Reynolds here is obviously that he invited himself, and he will remain here for as long as I do, given that it does not look as if the moderators are going to remove him.

Likewise he gives HIMSELF the right to address us in an insulting manner.

I have to stay here because he intervened here specifically to drive me away, but he did not do that with you. In that sense you are free to leave.
If I were in your position, I would.

[jayreynolds]

Wayne, liakopoulos is not free to leave, at least not until I tell him to. he is a useful dude to me, and I prefer to keep him on the hook for now. Anyways, who voted you to be the "KING OF GREEKS", able to tell all Hellas people what to do? Shame on you.

Deborah('footsoldier') wrote: "I am a process-oriented person..."

Girl, you better get your "process" up to speed. It's been five years now and your "process" has finally come down to contrails, plain and simple contrails, as you put it, "aviation cirrus".
Also, Deborah, ask your shrink about heliophobia, there is help available.

'Sore', I guess those last questions were a little rough?
ha!
Jay

[airtankerpilot]

No debunker has answered the question.

Given that we are experiencing accelerating climate change, and the consequent impacts, and given our country's unwilling to cooperate with other industrial countires to reduce CO2 emissions, why wouldn't the govenment employ mitigation projects to limits the results of increasing greenhouse gases?

Since you all seem to be so absolutely CERTAIN that this could never happen, just what would be the rationale for not undertaking such a project?

You all seem more than willing to share your truths on otehr matters...

What frightens you about this simple question?

And here Yaak, I'll answer yours...

Yes, I think that some aircraft emissions are being altered to become more persistent.

Nothing new about that....it's a position I've held and shared for five years.

Now...back to the question that appears to frightens you.

Why wouldn't the government institute an atmospheric modification project to mitigate the effects of global warming?

Maybe they would if they could, but there is NO EVIDENCE it is going on. It has already been shown how many thousands of aircraft, and how HUGE such a project would be.

Look at what your pet theory would involve. Even though you have no evidence and data to back it up, looks go play with it for a bit.

Somehow that you have never explained, jet engines are being modified to allow more persistent contrails. Even though they could just fly higher and get the same result, we will go with your modification theory.

When you get a chance, tell us the modification being performed and how you came to get knowledge of it.

So we now have General Electric, Pratt and Whitney, SNEMCA (French), Rolls Royce companie and employees involve.

Each airline that uses those engines, will have to be involved. So you have all those maintainance personnel too.

Now we have to modify the range and performance charts too for the engines, and also the aircraft avionics packages too, so we can include honeywell and other avionics companies, since those are tied in to the engine operating parameters.

Pilots and flight engineers (if applicable) now have to know the revised aircraft performance and how much fuel to order now for their legs.

You can deal in theory, and hypothetical all you want, but such a project like you assert, would have thousands of planes involves, and tens to hundreds of thousands of people involved.

Boeing, Airbus, Gulfstream, Bombardier, Cessna have to be involved in this conspiracy now, since unauthorized modifications render the aircraft to lose its certification and not legally be "airworthy"

FAA has to be involved in this process too, since they are the ones that would revoke the certification of an aircraft. They are also involved in the the certification and maintanance phase inspections too on the engines.

So how many people are we up to now, just for your secret engine modifications.

Chemmies have been saying since 99, "we will have evidence real soon, you just wait!" They have even had to admit here, there is no evidence.

Its now 2004

[halva]

An acquaintance of Carnicom from Santa Fe tells me that on Coast to Coast AM at this moment they have a separate call-in line for chemtrail pilots and those who have talked with them.

He says that to listen to Coast to Coast online, you
can go to:
http://www.kfi640.com/main.html

I haven't done it myself. If anyone manages to hear them, they can let us know.

[airtankerpilot]

From the above-posted analysis:

Coal-burning freighter ships releasing sulphates into the atmosphere...
I think that is interesting. Emissions from "coal-burning" sources releasing cooling sulphates into the atmosphere.

Yes, coal burning releases many gases and pollutants, which is why I would much rather see nuclear as a source of electricity. Look how much strip mining has to be done to supply this coal.

Even from cleaner burning plants, it can still leave a dingy yellowish tinge to the sky downwind of those power plants.

[airtankerpilot]

DEAR MR HALL, I JOINED THIS FORUM, THAT PROOVED TO BE A NON SCIENTIFIC TRAVESTY, BECAUSE I THOUGHT THAT COMON SENSE WOULD BE PRESENT HERE. UNFORTUNATELLY YOU ARE GIVING ME AND GAIACOMM THE INSTRUCTION, NOT TO ANSWER THE RACISTIC INSALTS OF JAY RAYNOLDS. SO, I HAVE A SIMPLE QUESTION. WHO INVITED A TOILET DESIGNER LIKE RAYNOLDS TO THIS FORUM, AND WHO GAVE HIM THE RIGHT TO ADRESS TO US IN AN INSULTING MANNER?

Chemmies have not used scientific methodology to show chemtrails, well because there is no evidence.

Chemmies accuse those who do not agree of being
A. Government agents.
B. Paid debunker
C. Dont care about environment
D. Or involved in the plot personally.

Chemmies do not ask others with expertise in fields of aviation and weather . They would rather just discuss it with other like minded people, so that they can think of themselves as just the grand keepers of this large international plot, which obviously makes them amongst the most important people in the world

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Jay and his group have nothing to do but to fill up space on this forum website with opinion, cut and paste from other sources on the Internet and other public available data.

They are not scientists but wantabe’s in this chemtrail arena.

Scientists are too busy with ego and grants than to place them in a forum that will eliminate their private and federal funds for their respective projects.

The few that make claim only skate around the issue.

There is too much at risk to expose the entire truth of the matter and Jay and others take advantage and exploit it to no end!

They know that chemtrails exist and what causes contrails.

If you all are that gullible to be sucked in to Jay’s world of despair and the other cowards that hide with him then you all deserve the anguish and insult that comes with Jay and his group.

You allow Jay to poke at your egos and that is what he relies on.

Jay designs toilets for ships; he can tell which direction waste goes down a pipe.

But for chemtrails he has no further access than anyone else.

Halva is a socialist who champions causes for mankind and has a way to go for total success, but at least he honestly tries.

Chemtrails are not caused by billions of jets dumping fuel in the sky. Chemtrails is a small part of the whole. There are more emissions dumped in the air from cars and factories than all the aircraft in the world. The entire industrial system needs to be changed in order to stop the chemtrail activity. The contrails also contribute to the environment. So exposure of the facts is already in front of you, just take a breath and see.

It will take an act of congress to change the system or a collective revolution manned by the peoples of the world.

So until then, nothing will change until you change yourself, first!

[halva]

Gaiacomm can you let me speak for myself please.

I haven't said that I am any kind of '-ist'.

I thought you said you had a lot of work to do with your company.

[gaiacomm]

Also the strategy that I have been pursuing this year since publishing this:

http://www.spectrezine.org/global/Hall.htm

is at least one factor in the blurring of distinctions between the chemtrails and the climate change debates, including the contribution of 'conventional' aviation.

Doubtless there are others. I don't know whether footsoldier or Sore Throat could be bothered explaining to you what they are. If I were they I wouldn 't.

Your pretensions to being able to influence footsoldier's or Sore Throat's acceptability as participants in the climate change debate are ridiculous.





Halva:

If you follow the links from your posted website you find the socialist party from Holland to Germany. After all you posted it!

And by the way I am ready for testing of HAARP2!

[gaiacomm]

Also the strategy that I have been pursuing this year since publishing this:

http://www.spectrezine.org/global/Hall.htm

is at least one factor in the blurring of distinctions between the chemtrails and the climate change debates, including the contribution of 'conventional' aviation.

Doubtless there are others. I don't know whether footsoldier or Sore Throat could be bothered explaining to you what they are. If I were they I wouldn 't.

Your pretensions to being able to influence footsoldier's or Sore Throat's acceptability as participants in the climate change debate are ridiculous.





Halva:

If you follow the links from your posted website you find the socialist party from Holland to Germany. After all you posted it!

And by the way I am ready for testing of HAARP2!


http://www.sp.nl/en/
http://www.vguengl.org/query:invoke/folderid:1994/method:display/lang:en/

http://www.spectrezine.org/index.html

[Sore Throat]

airtankerpilot claims:


"Chemmies do not ask others with expertise in fields of aviation and weather ."

Let me check the sincerity of your statement airtankerpilot.

You claim to be knowledgable about weather.

What is the earliest documented reference you can produce for the following cloud types:

Cirrus aviaticus
Cirrus uncinus
Cirrus fibratus

If you are unclear about the cloud types I am refering to, see this site:

http://www.chitambo.com/clouds/

I claim that these are newly coined terms to deal with man made clouds.

Please prove me wrong....

if you can.

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Jay and his group have nothing to do but to fill up space on this forum website with opinion, cut and paste from other sources on the Internet and other public available data.

They are not scientists but wantabe’s in this chemtrail arena.

Scientists are too busy with ego and grants than to place them in a forum that will eliminate their private and federal funds for their respective projects.

The few that make claim only skate around the issue.

There is too much at risk to expose the entire truth of the matter and Jay and others take advantage and exploit it to no end!

They know that chemtrails exist and what causes contrails.

If you all are that gullible to be sucked in to Jay’s world of despair and the other cowards that hide with him then you all deserve the anguish and insult that comes with Jay and his group.

You allow Jay to poke at your egos and that is what he relies on.

Jay designs toilets for ships; he can tell which direction waste goes down a pipe.

But for chemtrails he has no further access than anyone else.

Halva is a socialist who champions causes for mankind and has a way to go for total success, but at least he honestly tries.

Chemtrails are not caused by billions of jets dumping fuel in the sky. Chemtrails is a small part of the whole. There are more emissions dumped in the air from cars and factories than all the aircraft in the world. The entire industrial system needs to be changed in order to stop the chemtrail activity. The contrails also contribute to the environment. So exposure of the facts is already in front of you, just take a breath and see.

It will take an act of congress to change the system or a collective revolution manned by the peoples of the world.

So until then, nothing will change until you change yourself, first!

[jayreynolds]

Airtankerpilot wrote:

"Maybe they would if they could, but there is NO EVIDENCE it is going on. It has already been shown how many thousands of aircraft, and how HUGE such a project would be.

Look at what your pet theory would involve. Even though you have no evidence and data to back it up, looks go play with it for a bit."

Don't forget all the Air Force personnel tasked with homeland defense, down to the enlisted personnel watching radar.

For that matter, don't forget all the airliner crews watching radar as "sprayplanes" weave intricate patterns supposedly "AT THE SAME ALTITUDE" as the commercial traffic, where are these pilots?

Don't forget the air traffic controllers who would have to direct all this mess, supposedly "ONLY OVER POPULATED AREAS".

Don't forget that all these people "in the know" would have to be kept quiet AS THEY "SPRAYED THEMSELVES AND THEIR OWN FAMILIES".

C'mon, 'Sore' and Deborah, give it up, deny the hoax and concentrate on your opposition to contrails if you like, just be honest about it and I will leave you alone.
Jay

[gaiacomm]

Airtankerpilot wrote:

"Maybe they would if they could, but there is NO EVIDENCE it is going on. It has already been shown how many thousands of aircraft, and how HUGE such a project would be.

Look at what your pet theory would involve. Even though you have no evidence and data to back it up, looks go play with it for a bit."

Don't forget all the Air Force personnel tasked with homeland defense, down to the enlisted personnel watching radar.

For that matter, don't forget all the airliner crews watching radar as "sprayplanes" weave intricate patterns supposedly "AT THE SAME ALTITUDE" as the commercial traffic, where are these pilots?



Readers:

Jay and his group have nothing to do but to fill up space on this forum website with opinion, cut and paste from other sources on the Internet and other public available data.

They are not scientists but wantabe’s in this chemtrail arena.

Scientists are too busy with ego and grants than to place them in a forum that will eliminate their private and federal funds for their respective projects.

The few that make claim only skate around the issue.

There is too much at risk to expose the entire truth of the matter and Jay and others take advantage and exploit it to no end!

They know that chemtrails exist and what causes contrails.

If you all are that gullible to be sucked in to Jay’s world of despair and the other cowards that hide with him then you all deserve the anguish and insult that comes with Jay and his group.

You allow Jay to poke at your egos and that is what he relies on.

Jay designs toilets for ships; he can tell which direction waste goes down a pipe.

But for chemtrails he has no further access than anyone else.

Halva is a socialist who champions causes for mankind and has a way to go for total success, but at least he honestly tries.

Chemtrails are not caused by billions of jets dumping fuel in the sky. Chemtrails is a small part of the whole. There are more emissions dumped in the air from cars and factories than all the aircraft in the world. The entire industrial system needs to be changed in order to stop the chemtrail activity. The contrails also contribute to the environment. So exposure of the facts is already in front of you, just take a breath and see.

It will take an act of congress to change the system or a collective revolution manned by the peoples of the world.

So until then, nothing will change until you change yourself, first!



Don't forget the air traffic controllers who would have to direct all this mess, supposedly "ONLY OVER POPULATED AREAS".

Don't forget that all these people "in the know" would have to be kept quiet AS THEY "SPRAYED THEMSELVES AND THEIR OWN FAMILIES".

C'mon, 'Sore' and Deborah, give it up, deny the hoax and concentrate on your opposition to contrails if you like, just be honest about it and I will leave you alone.
Jay

[airtankerpilot]

airtankerpilot claims:


"Chemmies do not ask others with expertise in fields of aviation and weather ."

Let me check the sincerity of your statement airtankerpilot.

You claim to be knowledgable about weather.

What is the earliest documented reference you can produce for the following cloud types:

Cirrus aviaticus
Cirrus uncinus
Cirrus fibratus

If you are unclear about the cloud types I am refering to, see this site:

http://www.chitambo.com/clouds/

I claim that these are newly coined terms to deal with man made clouds.

Please prove me wrong....

if you can.

Well its still not for others to prove you wrong, its for you to prove your own theories, but I will play along anyways, even though it is for YOU to prove your assertion, but like all chemmies, that does not seem to apply in their own minds.

Why dont you prove and investigate it on your own rather than just demanding that others disprove your conspiracy beliefs. Have you checked old books on your own to find out? You shouldnt ask others to do your own work for you.

Cirrus aviaticus is a term for cirrus resulting from aviation. Not sure of the date of the term or when it was coined, but persistent contrails date back to the 1940s at least, and probably the 30s too. Plenty of accounts and photos in the 40s of skies full of contrails.

It is just a generic term for contrail. Even if it was a very recent term, why does that matter when the object it catagorizes, has been around even since aircraft could get high enough.

Airplanes have been able to get to 30,000 ft since at least the early 30s if not 1920s.

Tell us what older books you checked to see if the terms did exist.

[airtankerpilot]

Cirrus uncinus is a type of cloud. Its name is derived from Latin, meaning curly hooks. Also known as mares' tails, these clouds are generally sparse in the sky, and very thin.

The clouds occur at very high altitudes, at a temperature of about 40-50 degrees Celsius. They are generally seen when a warm or occluded front is approaching. They are very high in the troposphere, and generally mean that precipitation, usually rain, is approaching
-----------

Yeah, that evil man made mares tail cirrus. I guess we make the weather fronts too.

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/~wlikun/page/thesis/chapter6.pdf

A thesis which references documents back to 1948 regarding Cirrus uncinus.

And not a single mention anywhere of it being "Chemicals". But lots of mentions of it being due to updrafts from approaching fronts.

A whole chapter of a thesis devoted to your mares tail cirrus. So is this masters degree candidate just part of the conspiracy, and less knowledgable about clouds than you?

[Sore Throat]

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/indexmeteo/cirrus.htm

Note the obvious linear "contrail" residue in the top Cirrus varies photo.

Also note the inclusion of the aircraft produced, Cirrus aviatius


or this:

http://www.stormeyes.org/tornado/SkyPix/wacinus.htm

"It was distinctly different from any uncinus I had seen before"


http://www.chitambo.com/clouds/cloudshtml/uncinus.html

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Jay and his group have nothing to do but to fill up space on this forum website with opinion, cut and paste from other sources on the Internet and other public available data.

They are not scientists but wantabe’s in this chemtrail arena.

Scientists are too busy with ego and grants than to place them in a forum that will eliminate their private and federal funds for their respective projects.

The few that make claim only skate around the issue.

There is too much at risk to expose the entire truth of the matter and Jay and others take advantage and exploit it to no end!

They know that chemtrails exist and what causes contrails.

If you all are that gullible to be sucked in to Jay’s world of despair and the other cowards that hide with him then you all deserve the anguish and insult that comes with Jay and his group.

You allow Jay to poke at your egos and that is what he relies on.

Jay designs toilets for ships; he can tell which direction waste goes down a pipe.

But for chemtrails he has no further access than anyone else.

Halva is a socialist who champions causes for mankind and has a way to go for total success, but at least he honestly tries.

Chemtrails are not caused by billions of jets dumping fuel in the sky. Chemtrails is a small part of the whole. There are more emissions dumped in the air from cars and factories than all the aircraft in the world. The entire industrial system needs to be changed in order to stop the chemtrail activity. The contrails also contribute to the environment. So exposure of the facts is already in front of you, just take a breath and see.

It will take an act of congress to change the system or a collective revolution manned by the peoples of the world.

So until then, nothing will change until you change yourself, first!

[airtankerpilot]

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/indexmeteo/cirrus.htm

Note the obvious linear "contrail" residue in the top Cirrus varies photo.

Also note the inclusion of the aircraft produced, Cirrus aviatius


or this:

http://www.stormeyes.org/tornado/SkyPix/wacinus.htm

"It was distinctly different from any uncinus I had seen before"


http://www.chitambo.com/clouds/cloudshtml/uncinus.html

None of which do anything to support any of your theories. Distinctive looking or unusual, is not the same thing as artificial. The author apparently think did not it was artificial. So what if the person puts an airplane on there...Big freaking deal. Cirrus aviaticus is from airplanes you know?

Linear Residue? hahaha Why dont you just say something like chemgoo or chemscum. Clouds can have lines and linear shapes Doesnt mean artificial, unless you have super secret knowledge that makes you knowledgeable than ALL of the meteorologists.

Face it, contrails have been around since the 30-40s, regardless of the time of the term, even though I am sure it has been around more than just a couple of years.

Mares tail is a completely natural occurance, and in a 5 min web search, I found references to it dating back to 1948, and I am sure if I had access to library of older books, which I do not, could go back much further.

And your other one, you have done nothing to show any reason why, and how, it is man made. You were 0 for 2, so no reason to spend any more time on the 3rd, when you wont even spend any of your own time researching.

BTW, you do a pretty good job of debunking not only chemtrails , but yourself too. You post an article about contrails causing global warming, and then you hypothesize how they exist and are to stop global warming.

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Jay and his group have nothing to do but to fill up space on this forum website with opinion, cut and paste from other sources on the Internet and other public available data.

They are not scientists but wantabe’s in this chemtrail arena.

Scientists are too busy with ego and grants than to place them in a forum that will eliminate their private and federal funds for their respective projects.

The few that make claim only skate around the issue.

There is too much at risk to expose the entire truth of the matter and Jay and others take advantage and exploit it to no end!

They know that chemtrails exist and what causes contrails.

If you all are that gullible to be sucked in to Jay’s world of despair and the other cowards that hide with him then you all deserve the anguish and insult that comes with Jay and his group.

You allow Jay to poke at your egos and that is what he relies on.

Jay designs toilets for ships; he can tell which direction waste goes down a pipe.

But for chemtrails he has no further access than anyone else.

Halva is a socialist who champions causes for mankind and has a way to go for total success, but at least he honestly tries.

Chemtrails are not caused by billions of jets dumping fuel in the sky. Chemtrails is a small part of the whole. There are more emissions dumped in the air from cars and factories than all the aircraft in the world. The entire industrial system needs to be changed in order to stop the chemtrail activity. The contrails also contribute to the environment. So exposure of the facts is already in front of you, just take a breath and see.

It will take an act of congress to change the system or a collective revolution manned by the peoples of the world.

So until then, nothing will change until you change yourself, first!

[jayreynolds]

'Sore' wrote:

"What is the earliest documented reference you can produce for the following cloud types:
Cirrus aviaticus
Cirrus uncinus
Cirrus fibratus
I claim that these are newly coined terms to deal with man made clouds.
Please prove me wrong.... if you can."

"I claim that these are newly coined terms to deal with man made clouds."

Well, Throatee old man, obviously cirrus avaiaticus wouldn't have been coined much before planes flew high enough to make contrails.

Try this photo for early cirrus aviaticus which also contains some uncinus and maybe fibratus. It's the bottom photo, from sixty years ago.

"Crewmen of an American ship watch the contrails as American
and Japanese planes fight it out above Task Force 58 in the Great
Marianas Turkey Shoot on June 19, 1944.
-World War II Magazine
Note "Fall Streaks" streaming down from these normal contrails in WWII!"
http://www.goodsky.homestead.com/files/gallery.html

The idea that someone has recently coined latin terms to "deal with manmade clouds", other than cirrus aviaticus, is preposterous.

Cirrus clouds have always been wispy and curved, some have always been fibrous(fibratus) or hooked(uncinus) in appearance. This is simply the way wind makes cirrus clouds look as the ice crystals get blown around.


'Sore's paranoid bleating about the terms just shows how far into la-la-land he has fallen.

=====================
Now, answer the questions, 'Sore', you little wimp:

Oh, and what about these questions from four pages ago, what is it about these questions that cuts to the quick, that opens the doors, that lays bare the rotten core of the "chemtrails" hoax?

1.) Chemtrails cause global warming, contrails prevent it
2.) Chemtrails prevent global warming, contrails cause it
3.) Chemtrails and contrails cause global warming
4.) Chemtrails and contrails prevent global warming
5.) Chemtrails are a hoax, and contrails may eventually contribute to global warming
6.) It doesn't really matter because the Earth is going into a cooling cycle (which will no doubt be blamed on geo-engineering / chemtrails

And lest we forget, the ten deadly questions left unanswered ON PAGE FIFTY FIVE NOW!

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. What is your claim about the purpose of "chemtrails, what are they for?

[jayreynolds]

See where paranoia leads you, 'Sore'? get some professional help, dude,
and stop spreading your disease around.

"NEPHOPHOBIA: (Nephophobia and Fear of Clouds)
1: nephophobia: a persistent, abnormal, and unwarranted fear of clouds , despite the understanding by the phobic individual and reassurance by others that there is no danger. 2: nephophobia: a strong fear of, dislike of, or aversion to clouds. "

The Phobia Clinic's 24-hour Nephophobia and Fear of Clouds program offers guaranteed relief.

Is it worth just 24 hours of your time to
learn to live without the fear forever?
http://www.changethatsrightnow.com/problem_detail.asp?PhobiaID=1709&SDID=509
========================
Nephophobia

Fear of Clouds

Dead calm. They're on you before you feel them.
Flecked with them. Reek of the invisible
rasp, the livid trail. The sky's glaucous, blotched
with gleet. Creeping. Creeping.

Maggots. Slugs. Leeches. Pasty wraiths bloated,
leaden. And shifty--torpid turns turbid,
roils and spits, banks off into blear. Grizzled.
They're on you. Scuts, scuts spuming.

As the driven snow? as fleece? as feathers?
Sluts. Sluttish. On you before you feel them.
The brackish snuffle. Invisible rasp.
Slinking. Dissolute. Smut. Smut.
-----

Paris Review #107, Summer 1988.
=============================
Can you feel the horror, 'Sore'?

Dump the chemtrails hoax, admit the lies and repent. Save yourself from eternal damnation enslaved by the arianna thread. Do it now.

[jayreynolds]

Hey, 'footsoldier', you(and 'Sore') have made thousands of postings using the name 'Deborah" at Clifford Carnicom's messageboard. For some reason you chose to try and hide your identity over here, but it eventually became obvious exactly who you are.

What i'm wondering now is just how it makes you two feel when your 'sugar daddy' disses you this bad:

"Any claim that the aerosol operations represent a mitigating influence on the global warming problem appears to be a complete facade that is in direct contradiction to the fundamental principles of physics and thermodynamics.

http://carnicom.com/sh1.htm

Hey, don't blame me, this is your friend talking :lol:

"a complete facade"
"a complete facade"
"a complete facade"
"a complete facade"
"a complete facade"
"a complete facade"

[Sore Throat]

I would call it concerned.

My concerns:

1. Increased global warming due to increased concentrations of greenhouse gases. (Extensively documented..no need for references)

2. Ozone depletion in the stratosphere.

3. Increased ultraviolet radiation as the result of 2.

As a result of 1, 2 and 3 we have:

4. Dramatic decreases in oceanic phytoplankton, which decreases the amount of CO2 removed from the atmosphere.

Plunging plankton levels may be disastrous
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=946502002

Plankton Declining in Oceans, Study Finds
http://www.climateark.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=14614

OCEAN PLANT LIFE SLOWS DOWN AND ABSORBS LESS CARBON
http://globalcoral.org/GLOBAL%20WARMING%20KILLS%20SOUTH%20PACIFIC%20CORAL %20REEFS.htm

So now, let's consider the role of increasing aircraft traffic on the above.

Aircraft exhausts produce CO2, nitrous oxides and cloud cover that otherwise wouldn't be present. So we have a growing human activity that is contributing to global warming, ozone depletion (and therefore greater UV radiation) and an attenuation of light reaching the surface of the planet. Which leads us to:

5. Earth is 20% darker, say experts

http://www.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,12374,1109374,00.html

And no one can deny that reduced light will result reduce the rate of photosynthesis, and therefore, reduces the rate at which primary producer (plants) remove CO2 from the atmosphere....which leads us to:

6. Carbon Dioxide Reported at Record Levels

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040322/ap_on_sc/climate_record_co2_11


Now given these rather unfortunate conditions, many reputable scientists have suggested methods of atmospheric modification (geoengineering), that would attempt to mitigate the impacts of increasing greenhouse gas concentrations.


US National Academy of Sciences
Policy Implications of Greenhouse Warming
http://books.nap.edu/books/0309043867/html/index.html

Edward Teller Advances Global Warming Cure
http://www.ncpa.org/pi/enviro/envpd/pdenv125.html

Sunscreen for Planet Earth
GLOBAL WARMING IS TOO SERIOUS TO BE LEFT TO THE POLITICIANS
http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/981/teller.html

Climate Controls
If we treated global warming as a technical problem instead of a
moral outrage, we could cool the world.

By Gregory Benford
http://reason.com/9711/fe.benford.shtml

GEOENGINEERING: A CLIMATE CHANGE MANHATTAN PROJECT
Jay Michaelson - Stanford University
http://www.metatronics.net/lit/geo2.html#two


Climate Engineering
A critical review of proposals, their scientific and political context,
and possible impacts.

Ben Matthews
http://www.chooseclimate.org/cleng/cleng.html

************************************************** **********

To repeat, as I have done frequently, but which Jay Reynolds and other debunkers consistently ignore or distort, I have never stated that all persistent contrails are Chemtrails. I fully acknowledge that persistent contrails have been well documented dating back to WW II.

If the debunkers have an argument as to whether persistent contrails, and the resulting cloud cover, could be used to combat global warming, their argument is with those scientists listed above. Please start with the National Academy of Sciences.

If debunkers think that anyone concerned about such issues is "paranoid", I would ask what planet do they live on? What we are experiencing is affecting all life on Earth.

If they think that an atmospheric mitigation program of such proportions could not be undertaken because "no one could keep such a secret", I can point out that many large government projects have been kept secret from the public...try the Manhatten Project for one.

If debunkers say that this couldn't be going on because the government denies it...that the government would never lie or mislead the American public, I would again ask...

What planet do they live on?

[lynn george]

Hi folks,

Well, this is an interesting thread, (and a bit comical with all the talk of cults, and chemmies etc. and shooting down planes and other silly insinuations. But really the important thing to consider is "chemtrail" programs are WELL known to exist and have been documented clear back into the 1940's. Many people are quite interested in the science and the many different types of programs now being called for by many major corporations. However, there still seems to be a cloak of secrecy regarding the actual applications, such as was the case with many of the now confirmed biological and chemical testing programs of the last 50 years.

Possibley it is best, as suggested, to get a definition of what "chemtrails" are. Many scientists continue to call "chemical trails",( intentionally dispersed for purposes other than transportation),contrails" but more people are referring to these "chemical trails" as chemtrails.

Let's just look at one aspect of the 'chemtrailing' programs. Though there are many programs spraying chemicals into the air, for modifying the weather ,now being actively embraced by government at all levels, there also have been many programs spanning decades for testing chemical and biological agents on the unsuspecting populations

The link provided is from United States Senate Testimoney before the Committee on Veterans' Affairs May 6, 1994.

It states clearly that all sorts of chemical and biological agenst were spayed over HUNDREDS of populated areas of the country over MILLIONS of people over DECADES. Funguses like Asperigillus fumigatus, carcinogens like zinc cadmium sulfide in the 60's, bacteriums in the 70' such as Serratia marcescens that can cause death, a potential carcinogen DPP in the 80's, ethylene oxide a known carcinogen in the 90's....

And this is only one area of the chemtrail programs, which doesn't even get into the weather modification aspect, or the communications or other type weapons research. Chemtrails exist.

http://home.comcast.net/~kknowlto/openair.htm

TARGETS included Hawaii, Alaska, SanFrancisco, St. Louis, Minneapolis, New York City, Washington, D.C., Key West and MANY OTHER CITIES.

SmT

[foot_soldier]

Here's a "cloud identification page" produced by a guy who provides the following bizarre definition of aircraft contrails:

Contrails often mistaken for "jet exhaust" are actually a cloud in the cirrus family. As an airplane flies high in the troposphere, its exhaust may become condensation nuclei upon which moisture may condense and subsequently form a cloud. Contrails that fade quickly are known as dissipating contrails. Contrails may last hours to days, these are known as persistent contrails.

http://www.greensboroday.org/martin/cloud/cirro.htm

And here are the photos to which he refers:





So, according to this guy's definition those are CLOUDS in these photos. "Often mistaken for jet exhaust..."

I guess this alteration of reality shouldn't be too surprising given that even tornados and hurricanes are up for re-definition these days what with all the insurance claims stacking up pursuant to escalating incidence of extensive property damage from "severe weather."

[airtankerpilot]

Here's a "cloud identification page" produced by a guy who provides the following bizarre definition of aircraft contrails:

Contrails often mistaken for "jet exhaust" are actually a cloud in the cirrus family.

Sounds to me what he was trying to say, is that contrails are a cloud (water), and not smoke or particulate matter. The person could have worded it a little bit better, but he is still right. If it was purely exhaust, there would be contrails all the time, regardless of conditions. Contrails are a cloud, albeit artificial.

[Yaak]

Foot Soldier, thank you for answering my question. I was wrong. I thought you know longer believed in chemtrails. Your research will receive no serious consideration until you do give up on the idea. There are already too many hecklers for environmentalists to contend with without adding more and unnecessary reasons to be ridiculed.

Sore Throat, you asked, “Why wouldn't the government institute an atmospheric modification project to mitigate the effects of global warming?”
Why would or should they since there is no proof of global warming? I know this is difficult for you to believe, but for every argument in favor of global warming there is an opposing argument. Nobody knows for sure that global warming is occurring. Yes, I can hear you now; don’t go smashing your keyboard. Copy/paste to your hearts content, but you are not going to sell me on global warming.

In the 1970’s some scientists were concerned about global cooling because of the aerosols from pollution. We all know that the Sun causes our weather. There are other forces at work also. It appears that the Earth itself has been warming. I think we all agree that we will cause some type of global warming eventually if we don’t back off on our coal and petroleum consumption now. The seemingly wild and radical weather that has been experienced in recent decades is really quite normal and was predicted in the 1960’s based on an expected increase in solar activity. Earth may actually be entering a cooling cycle now.

You just don’t seem to be able to let go of the idea that somebody is doing something intentionally to our atmosphere with jet aircraft. Your inability to do so conflicts with your apparent intelligence. Theories, ideas and proposals are proof of nothing. The proposals that you reference to would require the cooperation of tens of thousands (or more) of people world wide. How about the cloud of “un-scrubbed” coal smoke that enshrouds the Earth? Is that intentional? Wouldn’t this coal smoke more easily and cheaply accomplish the same objectives as jet engines running rich?

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Jay and his group have nothing to do but to fill up space on this forum website with opinion, cut and paste from other sources on the Internet and other public available data.

They are not scientists but wantabe’s in this chemtrail arena.

Scientists are too busy with ego and grants than to place them in a forum that will eliminate their private and federal funds for their respective projects.

The few that make claim only skate around the issue.

There is too much at risk to expose the entire truth of the matter and Jay and others take advantage and exploit it to no end!

They know that chemtrails exist and what causes contrails.

If you all are that gullible to be sucked in to Jay’s world of despair and the other cowards that hide with him then you all deserve the anguish and insult that comes with Jay and his group.

You allow Jay to poke at your egos and that is what he relies on.

Jay designs toilets for ships; he can tell which direction waste goes down a pipe.

But for chemtrails he has no further access than anyone else.

Halva is a socialist who champions causes for mankind and has a way to go for total success, but at least he honestly tries.

Chemtrails are not caused by billions of jets dumping fuel in the sky. Chemtrails is a small part of the whole. There are more emissions dumped in the air from cars and factories than all the aircraft in the world. The entire industrial system needs to be changed in order to stop the chemtrail activity. The contrails also contribute to the environment. So exposure of the facts is already in front of you, just take a breath and see.

It will take an act of congress to change the system or a collective revolution manned by the peoples of the world.

So until then, nothing will change until you change yourself, first!

[halva]

Gaiacomm, your contribution to this debate has been ZERO for the last few pages. All you are doing is filling space.

If you have been put on the right track by Spectre and the Dutch socialists, then follow that track. You keep saying goodbye and then coming back.

I personally am glad that Spectre publish my articles but that's as far as it goes. The politics of the Dutch socialists needs supplementation from people who look at things more closely and have fewer taboos than they do.

By the way, on the subject of the Chemtrail pilots radio programme, Big Joe from CTC provides this link:

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2004/03/26.html

[foot_soldier]

"Yaak", please READ the following, which I am reposting here. It is an honest reply to your question, NO MORE, NO LESS. I say EXACTLY what I mean, period. If you and your cohorts want to define my position according to your own assortment of assumptions, labels and false characterizations there's nothing I can do about it. You DO NOT KNOW ME. Your assumptions are of your own creation. They are not my problem.

It is my observation that a large percentage of jet aircraft condensation trails are significantly, and noticably much more frequently, more persistent since approximately 1999. I think this is a situation which is being ALLOWED to continue. I do not think that seeing our skies continually cluttered with, if not completely obliterated by, persistent jet condensation trails and their resulting aviation cirrus is a normal or healthy situation. That this situation is being allowed to continue when it is known for a fact that aviation cirrus traps greenhouse gas heat at Earth's surface indicates to me that there may be a deliberate purpose involved. My number one vote for "deliberate purpose" would be attempted reduction of incoming solar radiation, specifically UV-b.

[foot_soldier]

"gaiacomm" wrote:

If you all are that gullible to be sucked in to Jay’s world of despair and the other cowards that hide with him then you all deserve the anguish and insult that comes with Jay and his group.

You allow Jay to poke at your egos and that is what he relies on.
This is an accurate statement.

Good Night.

[gaiacomm]

Gaiacomm, your contribution to this debate has been ZERO for the last few pages. All you are doing is filling space.

If you have been put on the right track by Spectre and the Dutch socialists, then follow that track. You keep saying goodbye and then coming back.

I personally am glad that Spectre publish my articles but that's as far as it goes. The politics of the Dutch socialists needs supplementation from people who look at things more closely and have fewer taboos than they do.

By the way, on the subject of the Chemtrail pilots radio programme, Big Joe from CTC provides this link:




http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2004/03/26.html


Halva:

I have my reasons why I do what I do.

I have made contact with the Dutch Socialists and others. You do provide excellent reference material.

And I come back because I never left!
Saying goodbye is not forever!

Its a figure of speech. I will leave soon enough and on my own terms!

Until then Wayne I will watch you debate!

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Jay and his group have nothing to do but to fill up space on this forum website with opinion, cut and paste from other sources on the Internet and other public available data.

They are not scientists but wantabe’s in this chemtrail arena.

Scientists are too busy with ego and grants than to place them in a forum that will eliminate their private and federal funds for their respective projects.

The few that make claim only skate around the issue.

There is too much at risk to expose the entire truth of the matter and Jay and others take advantage and exploit it to no end!

They know that chemtrails exist and what causes contrails.

If you all are that gullible to be sucked in to Jay’s world of despair and the other cowards that hide with him then you all deserve the anguish and insult that comes with Jay and his group.

You allow Jay to poke at your egos and that is what he relies on.

Jay designs toilets for ships; he can tell which direction waste goes down a pipe.

But for chemtrails he has no further access than anyone else.

Halva is a socialist who champions causes for mankind and has a way to go for total success, but at least he honestly tries.

Chemtrails are not caused by billions of jets dumping fuel in the sky. Chemtrails is a small part of the whole. There are more emissions dumped in the air from cars and factories than all the aircraft in the world. The entire industrial system needs to be changed in order to stop the chemtrail activity. The contrails also contribute to the environment. So exposure of the facts is already in front of you, just take a breath and see.

It will take an act of congress to change the system or a collective revolution manned by the peoples of the world.

So until then, nothing will change until you change yourself, first!

[Sore Throat]

Clifford Carnicom may be completely correct in his opinion that injecting particles into the upper atmosphere to mitigate the effects of global warming would not be effective.

There apparently are those that would disagree with him about his point.

I certainly wouldn't.

As I've said before, I don't personally have access to the super computing facilities of the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory which has been used to analyses this complex problem and was used as the basis for some of the proposed mitigation programs.

Clifford and I are in complete agreement that an atmospheric modification project is underway, becoming apparent in 1999...
coincidentally the year after the warmest year on record, 1998.

Clifford Carnicom and I are in complete agreement that the government has not been forthcoming about the true reasons for these operations.

I have never stated that I know why they are being undertaken, only that they are.

I have looked for a reasonable rationale as to why they would be undertaken, examining the current status and trends of the Earth's environmental stability.

It may be that "shielding" the planet from increased UV radiation is the driving factor.

It may be related to some Black military project, as dubious and as wasteful as past missile defense systems proved to be. We've all witnessed how easy it is for the Pentagon to misplace hundreds of billions of dollars. That's already been well documented by the GAO.

And it may be of such nefarious nature that if the truth of the project was revealed to the general public there would be severe consequences for those responsible.

You'd certainly think that if this was a good thing, the government, and especially our elected politicians, would be falling all over themselves to tell us what great work they were doing.

It does make you wonder doesn't it?


I would also agree with Clifford Carnicom that the injection of particles into the atmosphere can produce condensation nuclei that can dramatically change normal precipitation patterns. This too has been well documented.

Why would I be concerned about this?

A picture is worth a thousand words:

http://www.drought.unl.edu/dm/monitor.html

[lynn george]

Well, I think that's good,

no more silly denying chemtrail programs exist, and no more wasting time debating the obvious. CHEMTRAILS exist being used for all sorts of purposes from modifying the weather, to mapping clouds and pollutants, to mitigating pollutant effects, to HAARP, to biological and chemical testing on humans, to perhaps many other as yet unrevealed programs. While some may continue to hide their heads in the sand in an endless sea of denial, there are others moving ahead and coming forward slowly in a more honest fashion to attempt to deal realistically with modern problems and possible solutions in an OPEN and HONEST manner. Geoengineering is HERE one doesn't have to wait for The Observer paper to start printing stories like their 'Giant Space Shield' plan, in fact these simple principles are being taught in many grade school science books to try and condition our children that the way to deal with pollution is to burn more coal to create clouds to block the sun's heat. Or as a picture in the book showed to fly planes like "particle air" (of which a jet plane with those words emblazened on the side appeared in the science book) spewing out "smokey trails" in order to create a "sunscreen" much like what Teller called for in his "Sunscreen for Planet Earth" proposal. Now with the Pentagon saying that "global warming is more of a threat an terrorism" don't we now have EXACTLY the type of scenario called for many of the papers (and links) posted earlier by Sore Throat. I personally don't see why this is so hard for some people. The government plays god in every other area of your life. Why not above your heads as well? Chemtrails are quite real. Face it. Deal with it.

SmT

[liakopoulos]

DEAR MR HALL, IT IS OBVIOUS, THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO MAINTAIN AN ACCEPTABLE LEVEL AT THIS FORUM. BUT THINK OF THIS: WHO ARE THOSE WHO DEBATE? WHO ARE PHYSICISTS? WHO ARE JET ENGINE ENGINEERS? I AM A PHYSICIST WITH AMASTER ON DIGITAL ELECTRONICS AND SPECIAL STUDIES ON ASTROPHYSICS. I WAS INSULTED MANY TIMES BY A TOILET (WC) DESIGNER ,BY A HIGH SCHOOL BOY (OR GIRL) ,AND VARIOUS OTHER "CHARACTERS" WHO CUT AND PASTE CHAPTERS FROM RANDOM WEBSITES AND PRESENT THEM HERE AS THEIR IDEAS. IT IS OBVIOUS THAT THE DEBATE GOES ON FOR THE DEBATE ITSELF. MY FRIEND WAYNE YOUR INTENTIONS ARE NOBLE BUT YOU ARE REALLY VERY INOCENT TO REALIZE "THE MISSION" OF JAY. HE IS NOT JUST A SPOILED CHARACTER. I "KNOW" WHAT HE IS . SO I AM STAYING HERE TO DEAL WITH HIM AT THE PROPER "LEVEL".

[liakopoulos]

TO JAY RAYNOLDS. ANSWER THIS QUESTION: "WHAT IS YOUR RELATION WITH THE ISRAELI MOSHAD"? ARE THE FEDs AFTER YOU?[/b]

[halva]

Liakopoulos, I am disappointed that you can't see the priority of focusing effort on what is happening in reality in Greece.

All you do is undermine your own prestige. What do you gain by finding out whether or not Reynolds works for Mossad?

There are few of us working on this question, and we need everyone we have.

Katsaros has a much better policy as far as Reynolds is concerned.

[liakopoulos]

DEAR WAYNE ,CONCENTRATE ON YOUR NOBLE EFFORTS AND YOUR TASK. MY TASK IS A MULTILEVEL ONE. HOLD AND WAIT. THE CONTRAIL CON WILL BE REVEALED. AND SOMETHING ELSE, PLEASE STOP COMENTING MY ASSOCIATION WITH THE TOILET DESIGNER.

[liakopoulos]

TO GAIACOMM: YOUR PRESENCE AT THIS FORUM IS NECESSARY AND SUBSTANCIAL. DON'T GIVE THE WC DESIGNER THE PLEASURE.

[jayreynolds]

'SMT' wrote:
"Now with the Pentagon saying that "global warming is more of a threat an terrorism" don't we now have EXACTLY the type of scenario called for many of the papers (and links) posted earlier by Sore Throat."

You didn't read that in the report. In fact, you didn't read the report at all, did you?

You don't have the guts to answer my questions, either, do you?

Which of the following is true:1.) Chemtrails cause global warming, contrails prevent it
2.) Chemtrails prevent global warming, contrails cause it
3.) Chemtrails and contrails cause global warming
4.) Chemtrails and contrails prevent global warming
5.) Chemtrails are a hoax, and contrails may eventually contribute to global warming
6.) It doesn't really matter because the Earth is going into a cooling cycle (which will no doubt be blamed on geo-engineering / chemtrails

And lest we forget, the ten deadly questions left unanswered ON PAGE FIFTY EIGHT NOW!

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. What is your claim about the purpose of "chemtrails, what are they for?

[jayreynolds]

Liakopoulos-
You need to explain to halva that ONLY by remaining here can you have credibility. When you leave here, you cease to exist, you become a NOBODY. It is in MY interest that I keep you here for now as a continuing example of the racist roots of the Greek "chemtrail" cult. You will choose to stay. I am sure the MOSSAD is watching you and I debate, they record every move you make, every word you speak, and every thought you think. I do not work for MOSSAD, but they might sometimes work for me, who knows? The feta is better in fyrom than hellas.

[gaiacomm]

I wonder what created that storm off the coast of Brasil?
Never happend before!

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Jay and his group have nothing to do but to fill up space on this forum website with opinion, cut and paste from other sources on the Internet and other public available data.

They are not scientists but wantabe’s in this chemtrail arena.

Scientists are too busy with ego and grants than to place them in a forum that will eliminate their private and federal funds for their respective projects.

The few that make claim only skate around the issue.

There is too much at risk to expose the entire truth of the matter and Jay and others take advantage and exploit it to no end!

They know that chemtrails exist and what causes contrails.

If you all are that gullible to be sucked in to Jay’s world of despair and the other cowards that hide with him then you all deserve the anguish and insult that comes with Jay and his group.

You allow Jay to poke at your egos and that is what he relies on.

Jay designs toilets for ships; he can tell which direction waste goes down a pipe.

But for chemtrails he has no further access than anyone else.

Halva is a socialist who champions causes for mankind and has a way to go for total success, but at least he honestly tries.

Chemtrails are not caused by billions of jets dumping fuel in the sky. Chemtrails is a small part of the whole. There are more emissions dumped in the air from cars and factories than all the aircraft in the world. The entire industrial system needs to be changed in order to stop the chemtrail activity. The contrails also contribute to the environment. So exposure of the facts is already in front of you, just take a breath and see.

It will take an act of congress to change the system or a collective revolution manned by the peoples of the world.

So until then, nothing will change until you change yourself, first!

[gaiacomm]

Its amazing how a toilet designer can have so much knowledge of chemtrails and be so sure. Never published a paper but can tell you which way waste flows down a pipe to the ocean. Jay designs equipment that ads waste to the environment. He designs sewer equipment that dumps waste into the ocean for the fish to feed for the humans to consume, for the humans to get sick and die.

Jay gets paid to design waste equipment that eventually kills people over time. So the idiots follow this person who depends on the internet for power and has never been to a library since school and his wife Karen does not know of his cyberjunkie diease.

Jay taunts people to play with him because he is so lonely and alone and needs the comapny of us all to make him feel whole again and gain his manhood back.

Just think, Jays toilets on ships are dumping waste into your drinking water and food chain.

He should be fined by the federal government for contributing to the damaging of the environment and be sued by the families of the people that died as a result of his toilets which carries the dieases to the sea!

And, arrested and placed in prison for his environmental crimes.

I am sure that there is a lawyer somewhere that can create a case based on this type info and file a class action lawsuit to take jays house, farm, and designer toilets in his garage. Ths will of course drive poor Karen away and maybe find another man that will love her like she always wanted but could not quite get from Jay. And his children the same...daddy just did not give us the love we needed!

[liakopoulos]

NOW SPEAKING SERIOUSLY, ......JAY, I HAVE THIS PROBLEM WITH THE WC AT MY OFFICE . IS THERE ANYTHING YOU CAN DO?

[Bonehead9]

NOW SPEAKING SERIOUSLY, ......JAY, I HAVE THIS PROBLEM WITH THE WC AT MY OFFICE . IS THERE ANYTHING YOU CAN DO?

Not only are you completely ignorant of the basic principles of physics, meteorology and chemistry, but it appears that simple engineering and plumbing are also beyond your capabilities.

Furthermore, you also appear to be completely devoid of any concept of common internet posting protocols and conventions. Typing in all caps is the equivalent of shouting.

For instance it would be rude of me to shout: “THE ONLY EXPERIENCE LIAFRAUD HAS WITH TOILETS IS HANGING OUT IN THE PUBLIC PARK, TROLLING FOR YOUNG GREEK BOYS,”

A more polite way to say this would be “Liakopoulos - is a pederast.” See the difference?

[Bonehead9]

To recap (as opposed to a spamming repost that Gaiacomm is so fond of)


EXHAUST EMISSIONS WHEN FROZEN START DESCENDING TO LOWER ATMOSPHERIC LEVELS WHERE THE HIGHER TEMPERATURES DEFROST THEM. THUS THEY DISSAPEAR WITHIN 20 to 35 SECONDS. CHEMTRAILS DO NOT DISSAPEAR. INSTEAD THEY EXPAND INCREASING THEIR VOLUME. WE CAN ALSO OBSERVE THAT THIS EXPANSION TAKES PLACE ON A CERTAIN LEVEL GIVING FLAT CLOUDS. THE COMBINATION OF MANY CHEMTRAILS AT THE SAME HIGHT GIVES A BIG FLAT CLOUD, USUALLY AT 30000 FEET. THIS CAN BE USED AS A REFLECTING SURFACE. WHAT DO THEY WANT TO REFLECT, IF THESE SURFACES ARE INDEED ARTIFICIAL? THE SUN HEAT COMING FROM SPACE, OR ARTIFICIAL EMISSIONS FROM THE GROUND? HEY JAY, I KNOW I GOT YOU IN DEEP WATERS NOW!


Lets examine your statement once again shall we?

EXHAUST EMISSIONS WHEN FROZEN

Jet exhaust contains water, which when frozen is ice.

START DESCENDING TO LOWER ATMOSPHERIC LEVELS

Actually they don’t right away. They actually rise after they leave the plane, the engine exhaust is still hotter than the ambient air. BTW, liafraud, do you know what a Standard Atmosphere (http://www.usatoday.com/weather/wstdatmo.htm) is? Do you know what the temperature at 30,000 feet is in Celsius in a standard atmosphere? Furthermore the water vapor releases latent heat when it freezes. For clear examples of this effect check out this (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/332946/M/) picture on airliners.net.

WHERE THE HIGHER TEMPERATURES DEFROST THEM THUS THEY DISSAPEAR WITHIN 20 to 35 SECONDS

lets go back to the Standard Atmosphere. The temperature does not get above freezing until around 8,000 feet. If a contrail is formed at 30,000 feet, and the ice crystals thaw 30 seconds later when they reach 8,000 feet, that means that they cover 22,000 feet in 30 seconds, or about 400 miles per hour. Even more troubling is the assumption that once the ice crystals melt you will no longer be able to see them. Its as if Liafraud has forgotten what low altitude clouds are made of. Maybe he thinks they are cotton candy.

CHEMTRAILS DO NOT DISSAPEAR. INSTEAD THEY EXPAND INCREASING THEIR VOLUME.

Liafraud, have you ever studied the concept of super saturation?

If you don’t know what I am talking about, I will be happy to refresh you memory on it.

WE CAN ALSO OBSERVE THAT THIS EXPANSION TAKES PLACE ON A CERTAIN LEVEL GIVING FLAT CLOUDS. THE COMBINATION OF MANY CHEMTRAILS AT THE SAME HIGHT GIVES A BIG FLAT CLOUD, USUALLY AT 30000 FEET.

And of course all cloud decks are just a figment of a meteorologist’s imagination, right? Cirrus clouds don’t really exist; they were invented to explain chemtrails, right?

WHAT DO THEY WANT TO REFLECT, IF THESE SURFACES ARE INDEED ARTIFICIAL? THE SUN HEAT COMING FROM SPACE, OR ARTIFICIAL EMISSIONS FROM THE GROUND?

Well, you are the self-proclaimed physicist, why don’t you tell us? Is it because you haven’t got a clue as to what you are talking about do you?

HEY JAY, I KNOW I GOT YOU IN DEEP WATERS NOW!

No it is you who is in deep doo-doo. You have opened you mouth and planted your foot right in it, you fake.



TO BONEHEAD9: LIKE I SAID BEFORE ,YOUR SO CALLED ANSWERS PROOVE THAT YOUR SO CALLED KNOWLEDGE IS PARTIAL. LOOK AT YOUR OWN STATISTIC TABLES.

I am still waiting for you to tell me what is wrong with the standard atmosphere table. What is the ambient temperature at 30,000 feet?


BY THE WAY IF YOU HAVE FOUND A WAY TO FLY AIRCRAFT ON STEAM PLEASE DO LET US KNOW.

What do you think the principle products of hydrocarbon (jet fuel) combustion are? Did you fail Chemistry as well as Physics?

To refresh your failing memory, when you burn jet fuel you get CO2 (carbon dioxide) and H2O (water) and a lot of heat. What is water when it is heated to several hundred degrees C ? That is right, steam. So in a very real sense, modern jet planes are in fact steam powered, since they are powered by engines that expel large amounts of hot gasses, including steam.

It seems we are still waiting for you to explain your answers.

[liakopoulos]

GO BACK UNDER YOU ROCK SHITHEAD9. THIS IS NO PLACE TO SOLVE YOUR SEXUAL PROBLEMS.

[Bonehead9]

GO BACK UNDER YOU ROCK SHITHEAD9. THIS IS NO PLACE TO SOLVE YOUR SEXUAL PROBLEMS.


I am STILL waiting for you to explain what is wrong with the standard atmosphere table.

How about it? Do you want to justify your claims?

All insults aside, you have made a number of statements that:

Don't make sense; or

Are completly wrong.

No one takes you seriously here. Even Halva has given up on you.

[halva]

This is the way the Rumpus Room at CTC was becoming before it was closed down.

[liakopoulos]

IT IS MORE THAN OBVIOUS THAT SCIENTIFIC FACTS DO NOT MAKE SENSE TO YOU OR THE TOILET DESIGNER. ALL YOU DO IS CUT AND PASTE EVIDENCE FROM OTHER WEB SITES AND PRESENT THEM HERE AS IF YOU WOULD CONTRIBUTE TO THIS "DEBATE". IF YOU , OR HIM ,COULD CONVINCE ME THAT YOU POSESS AN EVEN LIMITED SCIENTIFIC LEVEL, THEN WE COULD TALK. NOW ALL WE CAN DO IS "CHAT".BUT MY TIME IS VERY VALUABLE. THANKS FOR THE FUN ,....SO FAR. CONCERNING YOUR INSULTS, NONE TAKEN AND NO HARD FEELINGS.

[liakopoulos]

CONCERNING HALVA, ...HE HAS NO PROPER SCIENTIFIC BACKGROUND ON PHYSICS. HE IS SIMPLY SOMEONE WHO CARES AS WE ALL SHOULD.

[Bonehead9]

Well, Halve, let me ask you a few simple questions.

Based on his posts, do you think liakopoulos has a credible understanding of the physical processes involved in contrail formation?

If his understanding of theses processes is flawed, what are we to make of his claims regarding chemtrails?

What does the Mossad have to do with Chemtrails?

Is liakopoulos an anti-Semite?

Are you?

Do you agree with his politics?

[liakopoulos]

TO BONEHEAD9: NO I AM NOT AN ANTISEMITE. I HAVE MANY FRIENDS WHO ARE JEWS. POLITICS ARE VERY COMPLICATED. MOSSAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHEMTRAILS DIRECTLY. YOU SHOULD ALSO KNOW THAT MOSSAD PLAYS AN EXTREMELY ANTISEMITIC ROLE

[liakopoulos]

TO BONEHEAD9: WOULD YOU BE SO KIND TO GIVE US YOUR BACKGROUND ON PFYSICS ECT ECT......

[liakopoulos]

SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT THEY BECAME PHYSICISTS JUST BY READING A FEW INTERNET ARTICLES ,THAT THEY CAN NOT EVEN JUDGE, WETHER THEY ARE CORRECT OR NOT. IMPORTANT NOTE: AIRCRAFT FLY ON WHAT THEY CONSUME AND NOT ON WHAT THEY LEAVE BEHIND

[Bonehead9]

SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT THEY BECAME PHYSICISTS JUST BY READING A FEW INTERNET ARTICLES ,THAT THEY CAN NOT EVEN JUDGE, WETHER THEY ARE CORRECT OR NOT.

Feel free to offer your input at any time. You made some statements; I challenged you on those statements, you countered by claiming that I do not have the intelligence or training to understand physics. Where have I heard that argument before? Oh, Yes, Gaiacomm makes the same excuse every time he is challenged to produce specific data, only he claims that no one else but him has the necessary security clearance.


IMPORTANT NOTE: AIRCRAFT FLY ON WHAT THEY CONSUME AND NOT ON WHAT THEY LEAVE BEHIND

That is an interesting statement. As a physicist, you certainly must understand the vital difference in how thrust is produced by propeller driven craft vrs. a turbine powered craft. Maybe it is just a translation thing, but I get the feeling that you really don’t understand these things very well.

Anyone who understands how jet engines work (are you reading this Mech?) will tell you that it is the pressure of the exhaust gasses exiting the rear of the engine that produces the forward thrust. (Newton’s third law, every action must have an equal and opposite reaction) This pressure is caused by two things.

The combustion of the fuel with oxygen produces a volume of gas that is greater than the original volume of the fuel and the oxygen.

The exothermic nature of that combustion heats up those exhaust gasses. Based on the ideal gas law (you know what that that is don’t you?) the increase in temperature results in an increase in pressure, since the volume of the gas is a constant (it is constrained by the sides of the turbine).

After the exhaust gasses exit the rear of the engine, the volume is no longer constrained, the gasses expand rapidly while the pressure drops until the it reaches the ambient pressure at altitude. This expansion rapidly cools the exhaust gas. In addition, mixing with the ambient temperature air causes the exhaust to cool further, eventually down to ambient temperature. The water vapor product of the combustion condenses as ice crystals (a contrail). If the relative humidity with respect to ice is below 100, then the contrail will eventually dissipate. If the RH is greater that 100, then the contrail will stick around or a while, maybe it will even spread out and grow.

So yes, it is in fact, “what planes leave behind” that provides the thrust required for flight.

I think I will start to refer to you as "Gollum," and to Gaiacomm as "Smeagol."

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Jay and his group have nothing to do but to fill up space on this forum website with opinion, cut and paste from other sources on the Internet and other public available data.

They are not scientists but wantabe’s in this chemtrail arena.

Scientists are too busy with ego and grants than to place them in a forum that will eliminate their private and federal funds for their respective projects.

The few that make claim only skate around the issue.

There is too much at risk to expose the entire truth of the matter and Jay and others take advantage and exploit it to no end!

They know that chemtrails exist and what causes contrails.

If you all are that gullible to be sucked in to Jay’s world of despair and the other cowards that hide with him then you all deserve the anguish and insult that comes with Jay and his group.

You allow Jay to poke at your egos and that is what he relies on.

Jay designs toilets for ships; he can tell which direction waste goes down a pipe.

But for chemtrails he has no further access than anyone else.

Halva is a socialist who champions causes for mankind and has a way to go for total success, but at least he honestly tries.

Chemtrails are not caused by billions of jets dumping fuel in the sky. Chemtrails is a small part of the whole. There are more emissions dumped in the air from cars and factories than all the aircraft in the world. The entire industrial system needs to be changed in order to stop the chemtrail activity. The contrails also contribute to the environment. So exposure of the facts is already in front of you, just take a breath and see.

It will take an act of congress to change the system or a collective revolution manned by the peoples of the world.

So until then, nothing will change until you change yourself, first!

[gaiacomm]

Its amazing how a toilet designer can have so much knowledge of chemtrails and be so sure. Never published a paper but can tell you which way waste flows down a pipe to the ocean. Jay designs equipment that ads waste to the environment. He designs sewer equipment that dumps waste into the ocean for the fish to feed for the humans to consume, for the humans to get sick and die.

Jay gets paid to design waste equipment that eventually kills people over time. So the idiots follow this person who depends on the internet for power and has never been to a library since school and his wife Karen does not know of his cyberjunkie diease.

Jay taunts people to play with him because he is so lonely and alone and needs the comapny of us all to make him feel whole again and gain his manhood back.

Just think, Jays toilets on ships are dumping waste into your drinking water and food chain.

He should be fined by the federal government for contributing to the damaging of the environment and be sued by the families of the people that died as a result of his toilets which carries the dieases to the sea!

And, arrested and placed in prison for his environmental crimes.

I am sure that there is a lawyer somewhere that can create a case based on this type info and file a class action lawsuit to take jays house, farm, and designer toilets in his garage. Ths will of course drive poor Karen away and maybe find another man that will love her like she always wanted but could not quite get from Jay. And his children the same...daddy just did not give us the love we needed!

[Bonehead9]

For gaiacomm:





Got Spam?

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Jay and his group have nothing to do but to fill up space on this forum website with opinion, cut and paste from other sources on the Internet and other public available data.

They are not scientists but wantabe’s in this chemtrail arena.

Scientists are too busy with ego and grants than to place them in a forum that will eliminate their private and federal funds for their respective projects.

The few that make claim only skate around the issue.

There is too much at risk to expose the entire truth of the matter and Jay and others take advantage and exploit it to no end!

They know that chemtrails exist and what causes contrails.

If you all are that gullible to be sucked in to Jay’s world of despair and the other cowards that hide with him then you all deserve the anguish and insult that comes with Jay and his group.

You allow Jay to poke at your egos and that is what he relies on.

Jay designs toilets for ships; he can tell which direction waste goes down a pipe.

But for chemtrails he has no further access than anyone else.

Halva is a socialist who champions causes for mankind and has a way to go for total success, but at least he honestly tries.

Chemtrails are not caused by billions of jets dumping fuel in the sky. Chemtrails is a small part of the whole. There are more emissions dumped in the air from cars and factories than all the aircraft in the world. The entire industrial system needs to be changed in order to stop the chemtrail activity. The contrails also contribute to the environment. So exposure of the facts is already in front of you, just take a breath and see.

It will take an act of congress to change the system or a collective revolution manned by the peoples of the world.

So until then, nothing will change until you change yourself, first!

[gaiacomm]

Its amazing how a toilet designer can have so much knowledge of chemtrails and be so sure. Never published a paper but can tell you which way waste flows down a pipe to the ocean. Jay designs equipment that ads waste to the environment. He designs sewer equipment that dumps waste into the ocean for the fish to feed for the humans to consume, for the humans to get sick and die.

Jay gets paid to design waste equipment that eventually kills people over time. So the idiots follow this person who depends on the internet for power and has never been to a library since school and his wife Karen does not know of his cyberjunkie diease.

Jay taunts people to play with him because he is so lonely and alone and needs the comapny of us all to make him feel whole again and gain his manhood back.

Just think, Jays toilets on ships are dumping waste into your drinking water and food chain.

He should be fined by the federal government for contributing to the damaging of the environment and be sued by the families of the people that died as a result of his toilets which carries the dieases to the sea!

And, arrested and placed in prison for his environmental crimes.

I am sure that there is a lawyer somewhere that can create a case based on this type info and file a class action lawsuit to take jays house, farm, and designer toilets in his garage. Ths will of course drive poor Karen away and maybe find another man that will love her like she always wanted but could not quite get from Jay. And his children the same...daddy just did not give us the love we needed!

[lynn george]

Well again,

not sure what Jay has to do with the subject of chemtrails, other than he has his right to what he thinks, but to devote this thread to someone other than the subject of the current attempts at weather modification and other ongoing chemtrail programs is probably not very constructive.

So, having shown evidence of chemtrail programs such as the presented congressional testimoney to some of the spraying programs we should move forward and get past stagnant debates that go nowhere. Not only chemtrail programs dealing with chemical and biological applications are known to exist but also programs dealing with weather modification. Again we are talking about chemtrail programs that have been going on for decades. I realize there are some that want to distance themselves from this very pressing subject of very substantial Earth changes and experiments and methods now taking place to affect this,, but denial is a waste of time and much better to have an HONEST and OPEN exchange of information so we can all play an effective part in positively helping to shape our surroundings.

SmT

[Yaak]

Foot Soldier explained, "It is my observation that a large percentage of jet aircraft condensation trails are significantly, and noticably much more frequently, more persistent since approximately 1999. I think this is a situation which is being ALLOWED to continue. I do not think that seeing our skies continually cluttered with, if not completely obliterated by, persistent jet condensation trails and their resulting aviation cirrus is a normal or healthy situation. That this situation is being allowed to continue when it is known for a fact that aviation cirrus traps greenhouse gas heat at Earth's surface indicates to me that there may be a deliberate purpose involved. My number one vote for "deliberate purpose" would be attempted reduction of incoming solar radiation, specifically UV-b."

Okay, I got it this time, and my original suspicion was correct. My apologies to you, Deborah. You did not debunk yourself. You made no wild or false claims. I remain grateful to you for the research that you do.

Now, all seriousness aside, I hope Cliff didn't see that. Just in case, you know you are always welcome to post at Maverick's.

[halva]

Obviously there are many people identifying themselves with power who assume that they will be always and everywhere welcomed with open arms if they decide to 'change sides', or look as if they might.

Personally, I wouldn't take the risk of structuring my life around that assumption.

[gaiacomm]

Its amazing how a toilet designer can have so much knowledge of chemtrails and be so sure. Never published a paper but can tell you which way waste flows down a pipe to the ocean. Jay designs equipment that ads waste to the environment. He designs sewer equipment that dumps waste into the ocean for the fish to feed for the humans to consume, for the humans to get sick and die.

Jay gets paid to design waste equipment that eventually kills people over time. So the idiots follow this person who depends on the internet for power and has never been to a library since school and his wife Karen does not know of his cyberjunkie diease.

Jay taunts people to play with him because he is so lonely and alone and needs the comapny of us all to make him feel whole again and gain his manhood back.

Just think, Jays toilets on ships are dumping waste into your drinking water and food chain.

He should be fined by the federal government for contributing to the damaging of the environment and be sued by the families of the people that died as a result of his toilets which carries the dieases to the sea!

And, arrested and placed in prison for his environmental crimes.

I am sure that there is a lawyer somewhere that can create a case based on this type info and file a class action lawsuit to take jays house, farm, and designer toilets in his garage. Ths will of course drive poor Karen away and maybe find another man that will love her like she always wanted but could not quite get from Jay. And his children the same...daddy just did not give us the love we needed!

[halva]

If there is a lawyer somewhere, find him/her, Gaiacomm.

[halva]

Liakopoulos, check out
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000117-8.html

(bottom of thread)

[liakopoulos]

TO BONEHEAD9: YOUR 1:55 pm ENTRY SHOWS THAT YOU LUCK BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF PHYSICS. I AM NOT STATING THAT AS AN INSULT ,IT IS A SIMPLE FACT. PLEASE CONTAIN YOUR ENTRIES ON FOOD PROPOSITIONS. YOU SIMPLY CAN NOT EXPLAIN ATMOSPHERE DYNAMICS USING THE LOWS OF PERFECT GASSES AND JUNIOR SCHOOL KNOWLEDGE.

[liakopoulos]

I JUST FOUND OUT THAT JAY IS ,BESIDES A TOILET DESIGNER ,AN EXCELENT ONNION FARMER. I THINK THAT THIS COMBINATION MAKES HIM THE PERFECT MAN FOR THE CHEMTRAILS DEBATE.

[jayreynolds]

bizzzaro

[liakopoulos]

specify...

[gaiacomm]

http://www.sulabhtoiletmuseum.org/

[gaiacomm]

Lesson Plan
Caveats: Unfixable problems
Do I Need a Permit? Basics: Murphy´s Law,
Plumbing Hygiene
Plumbing Tools ReplacementParts
Case Toilet Parts
Emergencies -Clogged toilet Preventive Maintenance
How a Toilet Works How a Toilet Bowl Flushes
The Venting System (DWV) Anatomy of a Toilet
Water Conservation The 1.6 gallon toilet
Buying a new toilet
Testing for Leaks Anti-siphon Protection
Repairing Flush Valves How to Fix a Tilting Valve
The Lazy Flush
The Blue Goo Story Renew a Flush Valve Seat
Replace a Flush Valve Repair the Refill Valve
Replace a Refill Valve Toilet Seats, etc.
History of the Flush Toilet Sources of Help
How to REALLY Clean a Toilet Toilets in the News
Bathroom Safety Just for Fun
Vexing Problems:
Condensation
Phantom Flush
Molds
Noises
Smells
Stains
Disappearing Water
No water Troubleshoot:
Fluidmaster 400A
PF/2® Activated Toilet
Sloan Flushmate 501-A
Sloan Flushometer Service Manuals
Cesco Brass
American Standard
Kohler
Kohler Placid K-3405
Mansfield
Replace a Wax Sealing Ring Replace a Toilet Tank
Replace: Flush Lever
or Toilet Seat Septic Tanks
Who and Why Awards & Reviews
Feedback
Reciprocal Links FIXITIPS
Home Maintenance Columns

[gaiacomm]

German Toilets
Whenever folks who have lived or traveled in Germany gather for a beer, sooner or later one subject is sure to rear its ugly head: what is the deal with those toilets?

German toilets are quite extraordinary. Other European toilets - well, the ones that aren't merely holes in the floor - work much like their North American cousins. They are shaped a little differently, but the basic principle is the same: the excrement either lands directly in the water or it slides down a steep slope into the water, before being flushed away. Simple, effective and clean. See?


"Normal" toilet

Not so the German toilet. The excrement lands on a bone-dry horizontal shelf, mere inches beneath one's posterior. Repeated flushings are required to slide the ordure off the shelf into a small water-filled hole, from which it hopefully disappears. See?


German toilet

I do not understand the purpose of this toilet. It does not save water - you must flush it eight or ten times to remove every last scrape and smear. It is not hygienic - the smell is ungodly. The only conceivable explanation is that Germans love to inspect their stool, so the German toilet of necessity features a built-in stool inspection shelf. I wouldn't be surprised if the more expensive models include a digital scale: "Mein Gott, zwei kilogram!" exclaims Günter, joyful and relieved.

Further research has revealed that the German toilet is in fact designed to facilitate stool examination. This is a wise, healthy practice, argue Germans, a person's best defence against intestinal disease, water-borne parasites or worm-riddled, undercooked pork sausage. While this made perfectly good sense around 1900, thanks to improvements in public health the whole shelf business should have become obsolete shortly after World War II.

Germans, however, see nothing amiss. They actually like their toilets. Some even dislike North American toilets. You splash yourself, they claim. I don't think this is possible. I've never splashed myself sitting on the toilet. For the wave to reach one's bottom, one would need to eject a hefty pellet at tremendous velocity. I think they're making that up.

We've had innumerable bad experiences with German toilets. In Berlin, we lived on an upper floor and the water pressure was too weak to push a healthy-sized log off the shelf. After a few minutes' fruitless flushing you'd be forced to grab a wad of toilet paper and give the horrid thing an encouraging nudge. Then followed a lengthy bout of brushing and cleaning to remove the skid marks from the porcelain. At the other extreme, in Munich we lived in a basement suite where the water pressure was too high. Worse, the shelf was actually slightly concave, forming a shallow bowl. The first time I flushed the toilet the water came rushing through so forcefully that a small chunk of poo launched off the lip and shot out over the floor. After that we always held the lid down when we flushed. I swore you could feel a kick as the turd ricoched off the underside.

The German toilet's shortcomings are not limited exclusively to Number Twos. It is almost impossible for males to urinate while standing without soaking the bathroom. Urine sprays everywhere. There is a technique, but is tricky and requires a certain degree of penile agility: bestride the toilet and direct the stream vertically down into the hole at the front of the shelf. If you are sufficiently flexible and accurate, it's relatively clean, though it makes one hell of a noise.

The alternative, of course, is to pee sitting down - the dreaded Sitzpinkel. Herein lies the source of much gender conflict, for German women have become increasingly militant in their efforts to encourage or enforce the Sitzpinkel Rule. It's not uncommon to see little stickers on the underside of toilet lids, reminders to less civilized males that they really need to embrace their feminine side and sit the hell down.



An American friend was once at a party where, on his way to the bathroom, he was accosted by the hostess who demanded loudly in front of the other guests that he not pee standing up. The male counter-reaction has been predictably lame, only a few sad jokes here and there. Me, I've made promises, I've tried to be good, but somehow the instinct not to Sitzpinkel runs very deep. I just try not to spray.

© 2003 Scott Anderson (revised 2 March 2003)

[gaiacomm]

Terry Love
Bellevue WA
updated 3/25/2004
Save time, and money. Find out which toilets work in today's world. Despite complaints of poor working toilets, these toilets, in this report have been proven by plumbers and homeowners to work! Yes, they work just fine in spite of the current standards which allow for a maximum water usage of 1.6 gallons per flush (GPF). Many of the toilets in this report, have been installed in my own home. You might say, this report has done it's "in-home" testing.
Consideration was given to plug resistance, completeness of flush, perception of sound levels, and price.
The new lower flow toilets have been mandated to save precious and limited resources. For those of us that had grown used to 7.0 GPF toilets, it comes as a shock. The first recent evolution in toilets came with the 5.5 GPF, then the 3.5 GPF, and now 1.6 GPF.

"Switching to water-efficient plumbing fixtures could save the average household as much as $50 to $100 a year on water and wastewater bills." George Whalen
"Because of the new low-flow toilets, Americans save $11.3 million everyday on their water bill " David Goike

With the changes in the water usage laws of 1992, many encountered plumbing problems. The first round of low-flow toilets were not quite ready for prime-time. Customer complaints were many and plumbers were in the bad position of installing products that nobody wanted to use. Recently, in the wonderful world of plumbing, things have changed with new and updated products. Some of the new plumbing products work better than the old water wasters. The purpose of this report, is to identify which products are:
"Doing the job!"

[gaiacomm]

Enough fun with Jay..I think he gets the point!

Stay away JAY...!!!!


Here is news from the rumor mill: A memo/report is floating around the EPA about contrails/chemtrails and its growing effect on the global environment. You will most likely need a FOE act document to get a doctored copy of it.

Or you could pay someone to get it and of course if caught that would be a federal crime.

But rumor says that it is a very good piece of evidence for both sides!
But it is election year! Bush did not expect Mr. Clark!

[liakopoulos]

HEY JAY, WHAT'S THE MATTER MAN? WHAT IS GAIACOMM UP TO? I THOUGHT THAR YOU WERE THE TOILET EXPERT. ALL WE CAN EXPECT NOW IS HALVA TO START DEMONSTRATING HIS KNOWLWDGE ON ONNION PLANTING AND GROWING. DO SOMETHI' JAY! YOU'LL BE LEFT OUT OF BUSINESS.....

[Bonehead9]

TO BONEHEAD9: YOUR 1:55 pm ENTRY SHOWS THAT YOU LUCK BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF PHYSICS. I AM NOT STATING THAT AS AN INSULT ,IT IS A SIMPLE FACT. PLEASE CONTAIN YOUR ENTRIES ON FOOD PROPOSITIONS. YOU SIMPLY CAN NOT EXPLAIN ATMOSPHERE DYNAMICS USING THE LOWS OF PERFECT GASSES AND JUNIOR SCHOOL KNOWLEDGE.

Gollum, perhaps you would be so kind as to elaborate.

feel free to strut your stuff. show the world how much you know about the dynamics of contrails formation and explain just how "chemtrals" are different.

Go ahead Gollum, I dare you.

You won't because you can't. (coward)

[gaiacomm]

Its amazing how a toilet designer can have so much knowledge of chemtrails and be so sure. Never published a paper but can tell you which way waste flows down a pipe to the ocean. Jay designs equipment that ads waste to the environment. He designs sewer equipment that dumps waste into the ocean for the fish to feed for the humans to consume, for the humans to get sick and die.

Jay gets paid to design waste equipment that eventually kills people over time. So the idiots follow this person who depends on the internet for power and has never been to a library since school and his wife Karen does not know of his cyberjunkie diease.

Jay taunts people to play with him because he is so lonely and alone and needs the comapny of us all to make him feel whole again and gain his manhood back.

Just think, Jays toilets on ships are dumping waste into your drinking water and food chain.

He should be fined by the federal government for contributing to the damaging of the environment and be sued by the families of the people that died as a result of his toilets which carries the dieases to the sea!

And, arrested and placed in prison for his environmental crimes.

I am sure that there is a lawyer somewhere that can create a case based on this type info and file a class action lawsuit to take jays house, farm, and designer toilets in his garage. Ths will of course drive poor Karen away and maybe find another man that will love her like she always wanted but could not quite get from Jay. And his children the same...daddy just did not give us the love we needed!

[liakopoulos]

DEAR BONEHEAD9, YOUR FRIEND JAY FACES SERIOUS PROFESSIONAL PROBLEMS WITH TOILET DESIGNING AND ONNION GROWING. I HUMBLY SUGGEST ,THAT YOU DECIDE, WHICH OF THEESE TWO CAREER OPORTUNITIES SUITS BETTER TO YOUR CAPABILITIES, SO THAT YOU CAN SUPPORT JAY THE MOST. WHATEVER YOU DECIDE ME AND I BELIEVE GAIACOMM TOO, ARE BEHIND YOU 100%.

[liakopoulos]

TO GAIACOMM: WHAT DO YOU THINK? NOW THAT THEY ARE OUT OF BUSINESS IN ARIANNA'S, SHOULDN'T WE SUPPORT THEIR CAREERS IN TOILET DESIGNING AND ONNION PLANTING?

[Bonehead9]

DEAR BONEHEAD9, YOUR FRIEND JAY FACES SERIOUS PROFESSIONAL PROBLEMS WITH TOILET DESIGNING AND ONNION GROWING. I HUMBLY SUGGEST ,THAT YOU DECIDE, WHICH OF THEESE TWO CAREER OPORTUNITIES SUITS BETTER TO YOUR CAPABILITIES, SO THAT YOU CAN SUPPORT JAY THE MOST. WHATEVER YOU DECIDE ME AND I BELIEVE GAIACOMM TOO, ARE BEHIND YOU 100%.

Like I said, gollum, you are a big chicken


"Cluck, cluck cluck"

You hide behind rudeness and insult.

Prove to me you understand the dynamics of contrail formation.

go ahead, I dare you, big guy.

[Bonehead9]

TO GAIACOMM: WHAT DO YOU THINK? NOW THAT THEY ARE OUT OF BUSINESS IN ARIANNA'S, SHOULDN'T WE SUPPORT THEIR CAREERS IN TOILET DESIGNING AND ONNION PLANTING?



Originally posted by halva:
Arianna's has gone rapidly downhill since yesterday, and it's not the debunkers' fault but Gaiacomm's and Liakopoulos'.



You and your alter ego Smeagol have made made a total fool of yourself.

[gaiacomm]

No...we are just having fun with idiots and showroom dummies!

Come on...its the internet!!!

You know its not that beautiful voice you here when you call your 900 numbers!

[liakopoulos]

OH GOD ,I AM PARALIZED OF FEAR ........, I CAN'T EVEN TYPE.... COMMON BONEHEAD9 ,THIS IS NO PLACE FOR LESSONS AND ESPECIALLY FREE ONES. DON'T WORRY THOUGH YOU ARE YOUNG AND YOU HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO LEARN ALMOST EVERYTHING ABOUT TOILET DESIGNING. WHY BOTHER WITH PHYSICS?

[gaiacomm]

TO GAIACOMM: WHAT DO YOU THINK? NOW THAT THEY ARE OUT OF BUSINESS IN ARIANNA'S, SHOULDN'T WE SUPPORT THEIR CAREERS IN TOILET DESIGNING AND ONNION PLANTING?



Originally posted by halva:
Arianna's has gone rapidly downhill since yesterday, and it's not the debunkers' fault but Gaiacomm's and Liakopoulos'.



You and your alter ego Smeagol have made made a total fool of yourself.


Aliases: Gollum, Trahald, Slinker, Stinker
Date of Birth: 2430 T.A
Race: Hobbit of the Stoor strain
Height: between 3-4 feet, when not hunched over
Date of Death: 3019 T.A.
Alignment: Evil

Physical description: Drastically changed from his original hobbit form by the power of the One Ring. Black skin, thin wispy hair. He had large pale green eyes which shone like lamps in the dark and apparently aided him in keen night vision. He was withered down to a lean frame of skin and bones, but very strong.

He was extremely quick, and could hear the slightest sound from a great distance.

Biography: Smeagol's original name was Trahald, the Anglicized equivalent of which is Smeagol. Smeagol was born in the year 2430 to a fairly prominent family of hobbits of the Stoor strain near the Gladden Fields. In the year 2463, the day of Smeagol's coming of age, he went fishing with his cousin Deagol. While fishing, Deagol saw something glittering under the surface of the water, dove in after it, and came up with a glittering gold ring. Before even knowing the qualities of the beautiful ring, Smeagol's desire to own it overtook him, and he murdered his cousin for it. Smeagol soon developed many undesirable qualities, like stealing, eavesdropping, and being sneaky whenever he had the opportunity. It was these qualities which got him banished from his household. Cursing his bad luck and his family, he eventually made his way to a gloomy den underneath the Misty Mountains. Living in darkness, he grew to hate the light of the sun and moon, but the moon he would tolerate. Smeagol stayed there for many years until he was unexpectedly visited by Bilbo Baggins, who found Smeagol's ring near the water where he had left it accidently. After the "theft" of his "birthday present", Smeagol found the strength to venture out and pursue the Ring. He wandered far and wide until the year 3017, when he was captured by Sauron. This is how Sauron found out about the name of Baggins. Soon after he was captured by Aragorn, who turned him over to Gandalf, but managed to escape during an orc raid, immediately setting off in search of the Ring. He managed to catch up with Frodo and the Fellowship near the West Gate of Moria, following them through, and betraying them to the orcs. Following them through Moria and Lorien, Smeagol was captured by Frodo and Sam near Emyn Muil, after which he faithfully led the pair to Cirith Ungol, and seemed to be changing his ways. In Cirith Ungol though he revealed his true nature, betraying Frodo and Sam to Shelob with the intention of finding the Ring in their discarded clothing. His plan did not work out as intended, and he had to set out after the Ring once more. He caught up with Frodo and Sam at the foot of Mount Doom, where he was cast down by Frodo, and stayed by Samwise out of pity. Frodo was eventually overcome by the power of the Ring at the edge of the Cracks of Doom, where once again he was accosted by Smeagol, wrestling for the Ring. In the struffle he managed to bite off Frodo's Ring finger and recovered the One Ring. In a dance of mirth and excitement, he lost himself and fell into the Cracks of Doom, thus fulfilling the quest.

[liakopoulos]

DEAR GAIA, I THINK THAT WE HAVE FINALLY FOUND A PROPER FIELD OF DEBATING WITH JAY'S BAND. " THE LORD OF RINGS" IT SOUNDS GLORIOUS. I FEEL A BIT PUZLED THOUGH. NOW THAT THEY HAVE NO NEED OF ANY KNOWLEDGE OF PHYSICS ,DO YOU THINK THAT THEY CAN DEFEAT US?

[whitemajikman]

Halva:
I here rumor there is a memo/report floating around at the EPA about contrails/chemtrails....but it will need the FOE act to get access...thought you like know!


[quote]
The rumour is not a rumour at all,there is indeed a report in the works. The royal meteorological society is also working on a similar one but has stayed away from chemtrails,their report is about the effects of geo-engineering on the biospere.

I have some questions for halva........

1)What is the temperature deviation that a normal contrail forms at?
2)What has global warming got to do with chemtrails/contrails?
3)Is geo-engineering a bad thing ?and if so why?
4)Does contrail/chemtrails contribute to global cooling and if so what would be the significance?
5)What would be involved in mounting a global spray operation of the magnitude you have professed?
6)Are you using the chemtrail platform to further your own environmentalist causes even tho you know that chemtrails are based purely on conjecture and if so does that not seem unethical and unfair to real researchers with real causes?nevermind the people whom you scare into believing your conjecture.
7)Would you not agree that most of the debunkers that debunk chemtrails
are former chemtrail believers whom have done their own extensive research and have found that chemtrails are nothing more than normal contrails?be careful here halva this is a loaded question.
8)Would you not agree that you and the chemtrail activist's have used scare tactics and dis-information to attain and keep alive this hoax for the sole purpose of furthering a political environmental cause of global warming?
9)Where would you be Halva if their was no chemtrail hoax?
10)What is the biggest threat to humanity ....?

Answer these simple questions,honestly.

Those reports that are about to come to light will be like a poison to your cause so you better be prepared to eat crow,because you will have to explain how an environmentalist as yourself has been duped for so long ,
and how you have let a few lines in the sky dictate your paranoia and fear .......of the unknown.
sincerely
WMM

[whitemajikman]

Free energy, electricity from space, zero-point energy from the quantum fluctuations of the vacuum of space...Whatever the name of the previously-unknown source of energy that is seemingly tapped by an emerging energy technology, the proof for its existence is multiplying exponentially.

Will the physics books be rewritten before the turn of the century? If small devices are putting out more energy than it takes to run them, then we have to have another look at the scope of the Law of Conservation of Energy. Perhaps a law based on the steam engine needs to be expanded to encompass new inventions. Or maybe the new inventions are not violating the law that says you can't get more out than the amount of energy that goes into a system, because the new inventions are not operating in a closed system because they tap into a previously-unknown sea of energy that surrounds us.

Consider the Patterson Power Cell®. At the symposium on New Energy held in Denver in April, hosted by the International Association for New Science, physicist Dennis Cravens from Texas demonstrated a working power cell of the variety of devices that are called "cold fusion" devices by others in the field (but not by the inventor James Patterson and his company Clean Energy Technologies Inc.) of Dallas (Tel. 214-982-8340). Their fuel cell uses ordinary light water to provide a new type of water hydrolysis using a lithium electrolyte and nickel/palladium catalyst. This patented system was reported on by ABC-TV's programs "Good Morning America" and Nightline on Feb. 7, 1996. It not only puts out about a thousand times more power than it takes to run it; in addition it continues to run for hours after being unplugged from any input power. What's going on in this little device?

A Canadian couple also say they have made a breakthrough in non-polluting power generation with an invention that delivers more power than it consumes by using pulsed cold plasmas. Dr. Paulo Correa and Alexandra Correa kept the process a secret until recently, when three US patents were issued. You can look these up through a library: Patent # 5,416,391, issued May 16 1995, "Electromechanical Transduction of Plasma Pulses"; 5,449,989, Sept. 12. 1995; and 5,502,354, March 26, 1996, "Direct Current Energized Pulse Generator Utilizing Autogenous Cyclical Pulsed Abnormal Glow Discharges".

Do the other scientists respect Correa's claims? It seems they certainly do. For example, Moray King of Provo, Utah, is a leading researcher of new energy theories and devices. In his speech titled "The Super Tube" he cited four areas of plasma research, including Correa's "Abnormal Glow Discharge." King speculates that a free-running, 2-stage device similar to the historical "radiant energy" invention of T.Henry Moray (Utah, mid-century) can be built with two "super" plasma tubes operating in the abnormal-glow-discharge fashion "and the output rectified onto capacitors which gradually charge to become the mutual input current source for the tubes."

At this point I wonder how much technicalese you readers of Flashpoints want. In my new book, The Coming Energy Revolution, every concept is presented in a simple way because the book is aimed to inform the general public. However, in Flashpoints we can delve deeper into theory or materials if you wish. Feedback, please!

For those of us who gravitate to the people stories, there is plenty of drama in the Energy Revolution. For example, one of the IANS speakers, Gerald Orlowski of Arizona, offers to tell how to build the 50 horsepower "Ro-Mag magnetic motor/generator". It seems that the original inventor, the late Rory Johnson, may have been suppressed in his efforts to give a "free energy unit" to the folks on this planet. He died under what are said to be mysterious circumstances.

In the work that Orlowski is trying to replicate, as well as in other new energy devices, magnetism itself is treated as an energy source that can be directed and controlled.

Which brings us to the work of David Hamel and Pierre Sinclaire, my other fellow Canadians. Jerry Decker of the Dallas-based bulletin board KeelyNet (www.keelynet.com or BBS 214-324-3501) highly praised Pierre's presentation in a report from KeelyNet. In contrast to another speaker who did not reveal much in his workshop, Pierre's speech was full of rapid-fire information about the unusual free-energy model that he is building in the Vancouver area with much help from David Hamel of Ontario. David had an experience about 20 years ago and ever since then he's been trying to build a model of the spacecraft that he had experienced. The story is told in a book, The Granite Man and the Butterfly, available from Project Magnet, Box 839, 9037 Royal Street, Fort Langley, B.C. V1M 2S2, Canada. I had the privilege of working with David and Pierre on that book.

George Wiseman is another down-to-earth Canadian, also rated tops as an innovative researcher by KeelyNet. He talked about free-energy circuits he's building to take energy directly from the air. The amount of power he's getting isn't much yet (only one volt accumulated per hour), but it again proves that there is such a thing as free energy. Of course, the hardware isn't free, but once you've paid for some, in this case low-tech, hardware... Knowing George, he will continue to improve his solid-state invention until it is of practical use.

As Jerry Decker points out, in 1926 a Harry E. Perrigo claimed to have discovered a method to tap the energy from the atmosphere. From what I've read, Perrigo even had a car which he converted to run on electricity generated in his "etheric wave accumulator." Perrigo applied for a patent on Dec. 31, 1925, with # 78,715 assigned. How did he slip that past the patent office, or was it before they outlawed what are called "perpetual motion" claims?

Today's energy innovators are a different breed than the perpetual-motion cons of the past (and I'm not putting Perrigo in that category, because I don't know about him...) Anyway, the new materials, knowledge, electronics, super-magnets etc. available to today's inventors have made a new technology possible. Inventors such as George acknowledge that they build on the knowledge of the past heroes, however. For anyone who wishes to contact a practical-minded inventor, George Wiseman has an address across the border in the USA: PO Box 145, Eastport ID 83826-0145.

The topic of HAARP was brought up in the hallways of the IANS conference, and not only by your reporter. Science researcher Al Zielinski of Germany referred to it in his speech, seeing HAARP as a potentially disastrous experiment by people who do not know what forces they are playing with, because they do not understand the supremely powerful energy coiled in the invisible background throughout all space.

There weren't as many speakers from outside North America at this third New Energy symposium, but the fiery physicist Stefan Marinov did come from Austria. He claims to have a free energy device operating now, but did not demonstrate. We're waiting to SEE something, not just hear about it! Stefan is to be commended for his many years of determined effort, trying to get mainstream scientists to look at a new paradigm of energy. After all, we've been using 19th century dirty energy technology for a long time - even nuclear plants boil water to produce steam to run generators.

After the IANS conference, Ede Riesenhuber and I visited Nova Resources Group Inc. in Denver. They make an Electrolytic Thermal Cell, a integrated electrolytic system and a commercial power cogeneration module. The work is going forward, although they do need more investment funding to be able to swing into full manufacture of the safety-assured cold-fusion research units designed by Chip Ransford. I was impressed by the well thought out units and also the people involved in Nova.


Hey Liakopoulos you are no physicist but I am a man who will give you the benefit of the doubt.......what is wrong with the above quotation?

If you do not answer that will be proof positive that you are a sham.
Sincerely
WMM

[gaiacomm]

DEAR GAIA, I THINK THAT WE HAVE FINALLY FOUND A PROPER FIELD OF DEBATING WITH JAY'S BAND. " THE LORD OF RINGS" IT SOUNDS GLORIOUS. I FEEL A BIT PUZLED THOUGH. NOW THAT THEY HAVE NO NEED OF ANY KNOWLEDGE OF PHYSICS ,DO YOU THINK THAT THEY CAN DEFEAT US?


No, not a CHANCE!

[whitemajikman]

Liakopoulos also what is the significance of the aether?in calculating?

[gaiacomm]

whitemajikman:

you are on the right track.

But the report I here about will not go public for political and business reasons.

[jayreynolds]

So, page sixty one of this thread and no chemmie will take on the simplest, most basic questions about their hoax?

I'll keep asking, but when you chemmies brought a nutcase in to spam the thread with nonsense, which isn't recent development, BTW, you admitted you lost and couldn't do anything else.
Jay Reynolds
==========================
Which of the following is true:
1.) Chemtrails cause global warming, contrails prevent it
2.) Chemtrails prevent global warming, contrails cause it
3.) Chemtrails and contrails cause global warming
4.) Chemtrails and contrails prevent global warming
5.) Chemtrails are a hoax, and contrails may eventually contribute to global warming
6.) It doesn't really matter because the Earth is going into a cooling cycle (which will no doubt be blamed on geo-engineering / chemtrails

And lest we forget, the ten deadly questions left unanswered ON PAGE sixty one!

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. What is your claim about the purpose of "chemtrails, what are they for?_________________

[whitemajikman]

From what I have heard from my own sources is that the spring of 2007
is the unofficial release date and the reports will go hand in hand with the announcements of the gains that the technology that has been in the works by your company and others shall benefit mankind for years to come.
care to elaborate Gaia?2007 is a long way away yet.

[gaiacomm]

Its amazing how a toilet designer can have so much knowledge of chemtrails and be so sure. Never published a paper but can tell you which way waste flows down a pipe to the ocean. Jay designs equipment that ads waste to the environment. He designs sewer equipment that dumps waste into the ocean for the fish to feed for the humans to consume, for the humans to get sick and die.

Jay gets paid to design waste equipment that eventually kills people over time. So the idiots follow this person who depends on the internet for power and has never been to a library since school and his wife Karen does not know of his cyberjunkie diease.

Jay taunts people to play with him because he is so lonely and alone and needs the comapny of us all to make him feel whole again and gain his manhood back.

Just think, Jays toilets on ships are dumping waste into your drinking water and food chain.

He should be fined by the federal government for contributing to the damaging of the environment and be sued by the families of the people that died as a result of his toilets which carries the dieases to the sea!

And, arrested and placed in prison for his environmental crimes.

I am sure that there is a lawyer somewhere that can create a case based on this type info and file a class action lawsuit to take jays house, farm, and designer toilets in his garage. Ths will of course drive poor Karen away and maybe find another man that will love her like she always wanted but could not quite get from Jay. And his children the same...daddy just did not give us the love we needed!

[gaiacomm]

From what I have heard from my own sources is that the spring of 2007
is the unofficial release date and the reports will go hand in hand with the announcements of the gains that the technology that has been in the works by your company and others shall benefit mankind for years to come.
care to elaborate Gaia?2007 is a long way away yet.

The report is avaliable now but only to a select few!
2007 is a bogus date.

And yes the company does stay ahead! I see you are doing your homework!

[halva]

Gaiacomm's and Liakopoulos' style isn't what I would have chosen, but who cares finally?

[liakopoulos]

QUITE A BIG QUOTATION. THE DREAM OF EVERY PHYSICIST IS TO BRAKE ANY OF THE LAWS OF PHYSICS THAT BOUND US. THE ABILITY OF USING INFINITE POWER IS THE ABSOLUTE DREAM. MANY HAVE CLAIMED THAT THEY'VE THE DEVICE ,ANY DEVICE ,WITH AN OUTPUT POWER LARGER THAN THE INPUT POWER. THE EXAMPLES YOU ARE GIVING REMIND ME OF A GREEK PHYSICIST CALLED GIOLVAS , WHO UNFORTUNATELLY DIED A FEW MONTHS AGO, AND HE ALSO CLAIMED TO HAVE INVENTED ANTIGRAVITY AND VARIOUS POWER GENERATING DEVICES WITH EFFICIENCY LARGER THAN 1 (ONE). PERSONALLY I THINK THAT SINCE ARISTOTELLES IN ANCIENT GREECE MENTIONED A DEVICE WITH SUCH AN ABILITY ,THEN IT MUST BE POSSIBLE. AT THE SAME TIME THE FIRST AND SECOND THERMODYNAMIC LAWS DO NOT HAVE TO BE COMPROMISED. THERE IS ALWAYS THE SMART WAY TO BEND THE LAWS OF PHYSICS WITHOUT BREAKING THEM. YOU SEE ENERGY FLOWS AROUND US .ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS REACH OUT AND GRAB IT. UNFORTUNATELLY I CAN NOT COMENT ON THE CASES MENTIONED IN YOUR QUOTATION BECAUSE I HAVE NO DATA, BUT I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE A LOOK AT WHAT GAIACOMM CAN NOT BRING TO PUBLIC. IN CASE I HAVE NOT COVERED YOUR CURIOSITY ,PLEASE LET ME KNOW. I AM ALWAYS OPEN TO NEW FRESH IDEAS. IF YOUR INTEREST WAS GENUINE, THANK YOU FOR ASKING FOR MY OPINION. IF NOT ...GOD BLESH!

[liakopoulos]

THAT'S MY BOY!!!!! GOOD FOR YOU HALVA

[liakopoulos]

DEAR GAIA, TIME IS A LUXURY THAT I DO NOT HAVE.SO PLEASE DO ME A FAVOR IF YOU CAN. PRESENT FIVE BASIC QUESTIONS ON TOILET DESIGNING FOR JAY TO ANSWER. IF HE FAILS THEN PRESENT FIVE BASIC QUESTIONS ON ONNION PLANTING. HE "MUST" BE GOOD AT SOMETHING......IF HE FAILS AGAIN....WELL, DON'T YOU WORRY JAY WE LOVE YOU ,ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

[airtankerpilot]

At least Sore Throat attempts to talk about science and his beliefs. While I will disagree with him on opinion matters, at least he is making an attempt, and he has not gone off into crackpot land. I will not include him in the alumunum foil beanie crowd, although I would like to send him some older books on weather (if I had any) and some aircraft nav charts.
And maybe he needs to figure out if he really believes in this vast international spraying conspiracy, or if he is just environmentally concerned about aviation pollution.

As for a couple of the others? What the hell are you talking about? You are completely embarrassing yourselves and those who might be inclined to agree. First you have proof, then you dont, then it is secret. Make up your mind. Then its the Jews, Isreal, Mossad. Then some mythical EPA memo....

For the one who keeps saying Bonehead has no idea what he is talking about on weather and science matters? You have no once brought up science, so how you can say anything? And yes, what bonehead has said, is pretty much common knowledge and corresponds to my experiences as a pilot and my knowledge of the dynamics of weather.

[Inhale2theChief]

Contrails require -76 degrees F? This is why people should be FORCED to take science,obviously William THomas never has seen his own breath in cold weather,nor does he seem to have the SLIGHTEST clue about vapor pressure,to make an IGNORANT comment like that one..... :roll: :roll:

[airtankerpilot]

Contrails require -76 degrees F? This is why people should be FORCED to take science,obviously William THomas never has seen his own breath in cold weather,nor does he seem to have the SLIGHTEST clue about vapor pressure,to make an IGNORANT comment like that one..... :roll: :roll:

Its hard to know whether William Thomas actually believes any of it. He sells his latest books and videos, while Len Horowitz sells the supplements against chemtrails. Its somewhat of a tag team effort they have, taking advantage of gullible people, and just always giving glowing reviews to each others books and products.

Water can exist in liquid water droplet form to down to -40, but even that is pretty rare and unusual.

[gaiacomm]

Its amazing how a toilet designer can have so much knowledge of chemtrails and be so sure. Never published a paper but can tell you which way waste flows down a pipe to the ocean. Jay designs equipment that ads waste to the environment. He designs sewer equipment that dumps waste into the ocean for the fish to feed for the humans to consume, for the humans to get sick and die.

Jay gets paid to design waste equipment that eventually kills people over time. So the idiots follow this person who depends on the internet for power and has never been to a library since school and his wife Karen does not know of his cyberjunkie diease.

Jay taunts people to play with him because he is so lonely and alone and needs the comapny of us all to make him feel whole again and gain his manhood back.

Just think, Jays toilets on ships are dumping waste into your drinking water and food chain.

He should be fined by the federal government for contributing to the damaging of the environment and be sued by the families of the people that died as a result of his toilets which carries the dieases to the sea!

And, arrested and placed in prison for his environmental crimes.

I am sure that there is a lawyer somewhere that can create a case based on this type info and file a class action lawsuit to take jays house, farm, and designer toilets in his garage. Ths will of course drive poor Karen away and maybe find another man that will love her like she always wanted but could not quite get from Jay. And his children the same...daddy just did not give us the love we needed!

[lynn george]

Well, I think that's great nobody wanted to debate on IF ChemTrails exist anymore as it seems there is CLEAR evidence that they do, and that there are now many programs out there spraying everything from biological material to different types of chemicals, to do everything from modify the weather to see what effect the pathogens have of the public.

Thanks, to all those researchers that posted such great links to geoengineering data, and pictures, and papers such as the military's "Owning the Weather" paper.

While at rense.com I found a very interesting read titled:

The Methodic Demise Of Natural Earth~ An Environmental Impact Overview- by Dr. R. Michael Castle

It deals with chemtrails, weather modification/climate change, HAARP, Ozone, etc. and appears to have been written by a polymer chemist who holds a national certification for environmental risk assessment with 15 years field practice, polymer chemcist 22 years, (other credentials) and he gives his e-mail address as some here may want to get in contact perhaps invite him here or CTC. (By the way was the CTC board HACKED it looks temporarily down?)

The link:

http://www.wnho.net/methodic_demise.htm

Regards,

SmT

[halva]

Debunkers can just get ready to start deserting their sinking ship now, and the rest of us hope that the ship is not the planet itself.

Liakopoulos is a right-wing politician, who has contacts among the centre-right party that is governing Greece. His bluffing and bullying style is the style of the right-wing, so get used to it. It is not only Americans who can be like this.

If Arianna Stassinopoulou-Huffington lived in Greece, she would undoubtedly be a member of Greece's governing centre-right New Democracy party.

Climate change is becoming the issue of our day, and it will drag chemtrails/geoengineering along with it.

My own leftist-ecologist milieu is also starting to mobilise itself around the question, and there is going to be a race between us and Liakopoulos and his crowd over whose issue this is going to be.

[airtankerpilot]

No, there is not any clear evidence of chemtrails, and they have had to admit so.

Its all just opinion/perception based "I know an chemtrail when I see it"

[jayreynolds]

"Show Me truth" posted:

"Dr. R. Michael Castle"

So now Nutcase Castle claims to be a doctor?

Mike Castle was never a doctor of anything.
He is a total fraud, as is the "World Natural Health Organization"

They operate a diploma mill and sell "Doctorates of Divinity", and act as "accreditation" for others that do the same..

If SMT is so gullible as to accept these people for reference, consider the source.......

[Yaak]

Chemmies:

Proof? They don't need no steenkin proof!

They just know!!!

:shock
:D

[jayreynolds]

Debunkers can just get ready to start deserting their sinking ship now, and the rest of us hope that the ship is not the planet itself.

Liakopoulos is a right-wing politician, who has contacts among the centre-right party that is governing Greece. His bluffing and bullying style is the style of the right-wing, so get used to it. It is not only Americans who can be like this.

If Arianna Stassinopoulou-Huffington lived in Greece, she would undoubtedly be a member of Greece's governing centre-right New Democracy party.

Climate change is becoming the issue of our day, and it will drag chemtrails/geoengineering along with it.

My own leftist-ecologist milieu is also starting to mobilise itself around the question, and there is going to be a race between us and Liakopoulos and his crowd over whose issue this is going to be.

Chemtrails always drags out the dregs of any milieu it touches, because it appeals to little demagogues with even smaller minds. Liakopoulos is a fascist, plain and simple, and in the end the left comes full circle and holds hands with the right as, guess what?- fascism!

I'm still waiting on answers to my simple questions, questions the best of the chemmies won't dare approach, not sore, halva, liakopoulos, amber, smt, foot soldier, not even one will take on the questions.
Why is that?

Which of the following is true:
1.) Chemtrails cause global warming, contrails prevent it
2.) Chemtrails prevent global warming, contrails cause it
3.) Chemtrails and contrails cause global warming
4.) Chemtrails and contrails prevent global warming
5.) Chemtrails are a hoax, and contrails may eventually contribute to global warming
6.) It doesn't really matter because the Earth is going into a cooling cycle (which will no doubt be blamed on geo-engineering / chemtrails

And lest we forget, the ten deadly questions left unanswered ON PAGE sixty three NOW!

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. What is your claim about the purpose of "chemtrails, what are they for?

[Sore Throat]

...for the Yucking Yaak:

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2717343

Air Travel 'Of Enormous Concern' for Global Warming

By Amanda Brown, Environment Correspondent, PA News


The growth of air travel and its impact on global warming is “an issue of enormous concern”, the Government’s chief scientific adviser warned today.

Sir David King, who earlier this year sparked controversy when he said climate change was a more serious threat to the planet than terrorism, told an all-party committee of MPs: “It is not perhaps unusual that the (aviation) industry would like to continue in a relatively unregulated fashion.”

He added that he believed this was “an issue of enormous concern in terms of climate change”.
Sir David also highlighted difficulties with aviation tax.

Aircraft fumes containing carbon dioxide are a major contributor to atmospheric pollution and a worsening of the greenhouse effect with extreme weather conditions such as storms, drought and flooding.

Sir David said mankind has the power to tackle the problem, but politics is a problem as far as air travel is concerned.

He told the Commons Environmental Audit Committee: “The issue of aviation is very important.

“Of course it is complicated but I don’t think because an issue is complicated, we should avoid the consequences.

“Aviation around the world is a continually growing industry and it depends critically on fossil fuel burning.

“So without going into the details, we can see that there is a net negative effect in terms of global warming.

“There are complex factors arising from water vapour production at different levels. But if we just look at carbon dioxide emissions, that in itself is a major contributory factor to our net emissions problem.

“No single country can resolve this problem. If aviation fuel tax were introduced in one country, planes would simply fly off to another to fill up.

“So it is another complex international issue and I’m afraid that as soon as I see a complex international issue, we are up against buffers and longer timescales.”

Sir David said climate change was already “irreversible”, but the Antarctic ice sheet could take about 1,000 years to melt.

He added that while the Greenland ice sheet could melt in between 50 and 200 years, sea levels could rise by six or seven metres, causing flooding over London.

“It is all happening now and it is a process that has already begun. The best way to deal with it is not to test it out. Don’t go there, keep CO2 levels down,” added Sir David.

He said that Europe is “absolutely on target” with its carbon dioxide reductions and should hold on to it without any “weakening of the knees”.

But simply “preaching” to the developing world about the need to cut back on emissions “won’t work,” he said.

************************************************** ********

And Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

What goes round comes round.

Just keep laughing Yaak.

And for the record....

I am concerned about BOTH the effects of aircraft emissions on global climate as well as the intentional modification of the atmosphere.

But just keep laughing Yaak.

You've certainly labeled yourself.

[Yaak]

Sore Throat, thank you for posting Sir David King's OPINION.

You are the best chemtrail debunker here. Or maybe Foot Soldier is. Either way, you're darn good.

[halva]

Reynolds wrote:

In the end the left comes full circle and holds hands with the right as, guess what?- fascism!


WH:
One thing that the USSR and the US had in common is that they eliminated the natural right-wing and left-wing extremes of politics, (i.e. political sincerity) and replaced it with the bullshit nuclear-arms race antagonism between themselves.

Bureaucratic militarist politics in the USSR, money politics in the USA.

Well, that has finished now: first the USSR went down, and now it's the turn of the US.

And real politics (democratic politics involving people who actually believe what they are saying) is rising again.

Climate-change/geoengineering can be used as a lever of European integration, without needing the militarism that Hitler resorted to.
And there is a ready-made internal opposition in the United States that can be brought on side just like that.

[foot_soldier]

U.S. Public Interest Research Group
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Tuesday, March 30, 2004

Reps Gilchrest and Olver Take First Step in Reducing Global Warming: Statement of Gretchen DuBeau, Staff Attorney

We applaud Representatives Gilchrest (R-MD) and Olver (D-MA) for introducing the Climate Stewardship Act. This new legislation will limit global warming emissions to 2000 levels by the year 2010 by establishing a market-based cap and trade system.

U.S. global warming pollution accounts for one-quarter of global emissions. Burning dirty fossil fuels (oil, coal and gas) to power cars and homes releases heat-trapping global warming gases into the atmosphere, which alters the climate of the planet and throws weather systems out of balance. Scientists warn that doing nothing to reduce global warming pollution will increase the frequency and severity of costly extreme weather events such as drought, floods, and hurricanes. Extreme weather events cost Americans nearly $20 billion in 2002, a cost that could increase if the U.S. does nothing to curb global warming.

While the Gilchrest/Olver bill is a good first step in reducing U.S. global warming emissions, we are concerned that the bill allows too much industry flexibility in meeting the modest goals. This will allow individual companies to comply with the law without actually reducing their own emissions. For example, by investing in conservation practices such as reforestation, companies gain more carbon emitting credits without reducing overall emissions. U.S. PIRG supports conservation practices, but we need real reductions in global warming emissions to solve global warming and protect forests and other ecosystems.

It's time to establish national emissions goals for reducing global warming pollution and holding industry accountable. The Climate Stewardship Act is a good step in the right direction. It's time for the Bush Administration and the rest of Congress to join the rest of the world and take real action on global warming. We urge other members of Congress to co-sponsor this bill and work with U.S. PIRG to promote other steps to reduce global warming.

http://www.ems.org/rls/2004/03/30/reps_gilchrest_a.html#top_release

====================================

Early Day Motion 923 -- 29.03.04

GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS

McIntosh/Anne

That this House notes the Government's recent announcement of carbon dioxide and greenhouse gas emission levels in 2003; is extremely disappointed to note that carbon emissions have increased by 1.5 per cent. since 2002; further notes that in 1997, 152.9 million tonnes of carbon were emitted and 152.5 million tonnes were emitted in 2003; and therefore calls on the Government to explain why, despite so much being said by the Government on this subject, so little has been done to reduce this figure further.

http://edm.ais.co.uk/weblink/html/motion.html/ref=923

[liakopoulos]

WHEN JAY RUNS OUT OF ARGUMENTS, HE STARTS WITH HIS FILTHY INSULTS, DROWN OUT OF THE TOILETS HE DESIGNS. SO DEAR JAY ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS: 1) WHAT MATERIALS DO YOU PROPOSE FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF A PROPER TOILET? 2) WHAT DO YOU SUGEST FOR THE FLOOR TILES? 3) WHAT COLOR SHOULD THE WALL TILES BE? 4) WHICH TYPE OF WC SHOULD BE USED? 5) WHERE SHOULD THE MOSSAD CAMERA BE INSTALLED? ANSWER THESE CRUSIAL QUESTIONS YOU RIDICULOUS LITTLE MAN, BECAUSE THIS IS THE LEVEL THAT SOMEONE SHOULD ATTEND TO PEOPLE LIKE YOU. THE ONLY THING YOU CAN DO IS BARK AND CALL THE FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY FIGHTERS FACISTS AND RACISTS, AS YOUR BOSS IN MOSSAD TELLS YOU TO. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SUPPORTS THE NEW WORLD ORDER AND THE DARK SIDE OF ZIONISM. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SUPPORTS THOSE WHO KILL INOCENT CHILDREN IN PALESTINE ,IN SERBIA, IN IRAQ ,IN AFGANISTAN AND THOSE WHO LED THE INOCENT JEWISH PEOPLE TO THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS IN WWII . IT IS YOUR KIND OF PEOPLE WHO ARE THE REAL FASISTS AND CRIMINALS. IT IS YOU WHO DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE INVIRONMENT ,IT IS YOU WHO CONDEMNS YOUR OWN CHILDREN TO LIVE IN THE FILTHY WORLD THAT YOU PREFER. HOW ABOUT IT NOW LITTLE JAY? AM I A FASIST OR A COMUNIST? YOU LITTLE PITIFUL MAN ,YOU ARE PATHETIC. I'VE PUT UP WITH YOU LONG ENOUGH. YOU WILL GET THE TREATMENT YOU DESERVE FROM NOW ON....BE PREPARED.

[gaiacomm]

Its amazing how a toilet designer can have so much knowledge of chemtrails and be so sure. Never published a paper but can tell you which way waste flows down a pipe to the ocean. Jay designs equipment that ads waste to the environment. He designs sewer equipment that dumps waste into the ocean for the fish to feed for the humans to consume, for the humans to get sick and die.

Jay gets paid to design waste equipment that eventually kills people over time. So the idiots follow this person who depends on the internet for power and has never been to a library since school and his wife Karen does not know of his cyberjunkie diease.

Jay taunts people to play with him because he is so lonely and alone and needs the comapny of us all to make him feel whole again and gain his manhood back.

Just think, Jays toilets on ships are dumping waste into your drinking water and food chain.

He should be fined by the federal government for contributing to the damaging of the environment and be sued by the families of the people that died as a result of his toilets which carries the dieases to the sea!

And, arrested and placed in prison for his environmental crimes.

I am sure that there is a lawyer somewhere that can create a case based on this type info and file a class action lawsuit to take jays house, farm, and designer toilets in his garage. Ths will of course drive poor Karen away and maybe find another man that will love her like she always wanted but could not quite get from Jay. And his children the same...daddy just did not give us the love we needed!

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Jay and his group have nothing to do but to fill up space on this forum website with opinion, cut and paste from other sources on the Internet and other public available data.

They are not scientists but wantabe’s in this chemtrail arena.

Scientists are too busy with ego and grants than to place them in a forum that will eliminate their private and federal funds for their respective projects.

The few that make claim only skate around the issue.

There is too much at risk to expose the entire truth of the matter and Jay and others take advantage and exploit it to no end!

They know that chemtrails exist and what causes contrails.

If you all are that gullible to be sucked in to Jay’s world of despair and the other cowards that hide with him then you all deserve the anguish and insult that comes with Jay and his group.

You allow Jay to poke at your egos and that is what he relies on.

Jay designs toilets for ships; he can tell which direction waste goes down a pipe.

But for chemtrails he has no further access than anyone else.

Halva is a socialist who champions causes for mankind and has a way to go for total success, but at least he honestly tries.

Chemtrails are not caused by billions of jets dumping fuel in the sky. Chemtrails is a small part of the whole. There are more emissions dumped in the air from cars and factories than all the aircraft in the world. The entire industrial system needs to be changed in order to stop the chemtrail activity. The contrails also contribute to the environment. So exposure of the facts is already in front of you, just take a breath and see.

It will take an act of congress to change the system or a collective revolution manned by the peoples of the world.

So until then, nothing will change until you change yourself, first!

[jayreynolds]

You know, when Liakopoulos starts writing longer posts, they start sounding less and less like they are coming from a foreigner, and more and more like someone pretending to be one. Have you actually made personal contact with this person, halva, or could this be a poser? I'd suggest you make sure who you're dealing with.

and Wayne, don't try to pull that crap that you believe in democracy. I've seen you in action on four boards calling for the un-democratic banning of the opposition party. It even happened on a board whose sole purpose was to discuss direct democracy!

You are a left-wing-one-party fascist. Your kind has one goal in mind, power, and if you ever gain it, you'd do your best to wipe out anyone who disagrees with you.

[halva]

Liakopoulos exists. I have spoken to him on the telephone and seen him on video and I could certainly not be in the same party as him.

[jayreynolds]

'footsoldier'(Deborah) wrote:
"We applaud Representatives Gilchrest (R-MD) and Olver (D-MA) for introducing the Climate Stewardship Act."

"McIntosh/Anne That this House notes the Government's recent announcement of carbon dioxide and greenhouse gas emission levels in 2003"

'Sore' posts:
" Air Travel 'Of Enormous Concern' for Global Warming
By Amanda Brown, Environment Correspondent, PA News
Sir David King, who earlier this year sparked controversy when he said climate change was a more serious threat to the planet than terrorism, blah blah blah"
====================
Hey, 'Sore and Deborah,
Want to bet that none of the people you two cite will buy into your ideas of intentional atmospheric modification?
go ahead, present your case to them and let the chips fall wehre they may? I'll bet each of you, seperately, $1000.00 that none of those people mentioned will. I'll give you each $1000 for each person from the list below that becomes a chemmie.

Go for the money, donate it to your favorite charity, c'mon.

Representatives Gilchrest (R-MD) and Olver (D-MA)
Amanda Brown
Sir David King
Anne McIntosh(Vale of York)

See, even a monkey can copy/paste BS articles on a messageboard, you two have done it thousands of times, right? But where the rubber meets the road is getting someone other than brain-dead monkeys, fanatic cultists, or people with hidden agendas to accept your ideas. It aint gonna happen, bub. Get over it, out the chemmie hypocrites, air the lies publicly, dump the hoax, and move on. Till then, I'm bird-doggin' ye.

[jayreynolds]

You've never personally met him, because he is ostracized from polite society, however racist it appears to be, in Greece. He's the 'black-sheep' nobody wants to be seen with, eh?

you better talk to him on the phone and confirm who it is posting here, wayne. You can read as well as the next person.

[halva]

I'm not going to give you even that straw to clutch at.

You should know that the boundaries between the far right and the respectable right are not hermetically sealed.

[jayreynolds]

I now challenge halva and Liakopoulos(along with any others) to present their case for "Chemtrails" before this gathering of atmospheric scientists in Greece.

" The International Ozone Commission (IOC) of the International Association for Meteorology and Atmospheric Sciences (IAMAS)
announces that the next
Quadrennial Ozone Symposium
QOS 2004
will be held in the island of Kos, Greece from 1 - 8 June, 2004

The Symposium is jointly organized by the International Ozone Commission (IOC) and the European Commission.

Ulrich Schumann, one of the world's foremost authorities on contrails will be there!
He will be presenting on June 8th.
========================
I predict no chemmies will even attend the Symposium. They are losers,
before they even begin.

[halva]

You might have noticed from my experience here that people don't always co-operate by playing by the rules one tries to impose.

[lynn george]

Of course ChemTrails are real.

What part of the post I supplied dealing with spraying chemical and biological trails over MILLIONS of people, in HUNDREDS of cities, over decades wasn't clear???

Here once again is testimoney given in front of a Senate panel that provides evidence of one of several branches of Chemtrails?

Please take the time to carefully read the testimoney.

http://home.comcast.net/~kknowlto/openair.htm

Regards,

SmT

[Inhale2theChief]

Yep Chemtrails alright,H2O is a chemical,therefore Condensation trails are chemtrails.

[gaiacomm]

Its amazing how a toilet designer can have so much knowledge of chemtrails and be so sure. Never published a paper but can tell you which way waste flows down a pipe to the ocean. Jay designs equipment that ads waste to the environment. He designs sewer equipment that dumps waste into the ocean for the fish to feed for the humans to consume, for the humans to get sick and die.

Jay gets paid to design waste equipment that eventually kills people over time. So the idiots follow this person who depends on the internet for power and has never been to a library since school and his wife Karen does not know of his cyberjunkie diease.

Jay taunts people to play with him because he is so lonely and alone and needs the comapny of us all to make him feel whole again and gain his manhood back.

Just think, Jays toilets on ships are dumping waste into your drinking water and food chain.

He should be fined by the federal government for contributing to the damaging of the environment and be sued by the families of the people that died as a result of his toilets which carries the dieases to the sea!

And, arrested and placed in prison for his environmental crimes.

I am sure that there is a lawyer somewhere that can create a case based on this type info and file a class action lawsuit to take jays house, farm, and designer toilets in his garage. Ths will of course drive poor Karen away and maybe find another man that will love her like she always wanted but could not quite get from Jay. And his children the same...daddy just did not give us the love we needed!

[gaiacomm]

I now challenge halva and Liakopoulos(along with any others) to present their case for "Chemtrails" before this gathering of atmospheric scientists in Greece.

" The International Ozone Commission (IOC) of the International Association for Meteorology and Atmospheric Sciences (IAMAS)
announces that the next
Quadrennial Ozone Symposium
QOS 2004
will be held in the island of Kos, Greece from 1 - 8 June, 2004

The Symposium is jointly organized by the International Ozone Commission (IOC) and the European Commission.

Ulrich Schumann, one of the world's foremost authorities on contrails will be there!
He will be presenting on June 8th.
========================
I predict no chemmies will even attend the Symposium. They are losers,
before they even begin.



Halva:'

Maybe I can go to this!

[airtankerpilot]

And your article does not provide any evidence of a current vast international spraying conspiracy.

Your article is dating from 1994, dealing with small scales tests of bacteria from 49-69.

Chemmies say chemtrails did not start until late 90s, which debunks your article anyways, even from a chemmie point of view

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Jay and his group have nothing to do but to fill up space on this forum website with opinion, cut and paste from other sources on the Internet and other public available data.

They are not scientists but wantabe’s in this chemtrail arena.

Scientists are too busy with ego and grants than to place them in a forum that will eliminate their private and federal funds for their respective projects.

The few that make claim only skate around the issue.

There is too much at risk to expose the entire truth of the matter and Jay and others take advantage and exploit it to no end!

They know that chemtrails exist and what causes contrails.

If you all are that gullible to be sucked in to Jay’s world of despair and the other cowards that hide with him then you all deserve the anguish and insult that comes with Jay and his group.

You allow Jay to poke at your egos and that is what he relies on.

Jay designs toilets for ships; he can tell which direction waste goes down a pipe.

But for chemtrails he has no further access than anyone else.

Halva is a socialist who champions causes for mankind and has a way to go for total success, but at least he honestly tries.

Chemtrails are not caused by billions of jets dumping fuel in the sky. Chemtrails is a small part of the whole. There are more emissions dumped in the air from cars and factories than all the aircraft in the world. The entire industrial system needs to be changed in order to stop the chemtrail activity. The contrails also contribute to the environment. So exposure of the facts is already in front of you, just take a breath and see.

It will take an act of congress to change the system or a collective revolution manned by the peoples of the world.

So until then, nothing will change until you change yourself, first!

[gaiacomm]

And your article does not provide any evidence of a current vast international spraying conspiracy.

Your article is dating from 1994, dealing with small scales tests of bacteria from 49-69.

Chemmies say chemtrails did not start until late 90s, which debunks your article anyways, even from a chemmie point of view


But it is data! And it has value.

If you are looking for the answer...get a job with the DOD and and then you will see!

[Yaak]

Of course ChemTrails are real.

What part of the post I supplied dealing with spraying chemical and biological trails over MILLIONS of people, in HUNDREDS of cities, over decades wasn't clear???

Here once again is testimoney given in front of a Senate panel that provides evidence of one of several branches of Chemtrails?

Please take the time to carefully read the testimoney.

http://home.comcast.net/~kknowlto/openair.htm

Regards,

SmT

Lynne, you appear to have your own personal definition of chemtrails. How do you suppose the population was exposed to the chemical and biological agents discussed at your referenced web site; with jets flying at 25,000 - 40,000 feet? Get real!

I'm sorry to have to be the one to break this news to you, but the topic of chemtrails is a dead issue. The argument now is whether or not jet contrails are being induced to persist. Will you please try to keep up? :D

[airtankerpilot]

Lynne, you appear to have your own personal definition of chemtrails.

Yes, but then dont they all? There is still not a single coherent chemtrail theory. Its just whatever the chemmie feels it is.

Whether its airlines, military, un, cia, or alien spacecraft
Flown by military, civilian, or space alien pilots
Spraying : barium, aluminum, red blood cells, virus, fibers or goo
Evidenced by intersecting contrails, or parallel trails.

Its easy to make your up your very own "chem-spiracy" :)

[halva]

I now challenge halva and Liakopoulos(along with any others) to present their case for "Chemtrails" before this gathering of atmospheric scientists in Greece.

" The International Ozone Commission (IOC) of the International Association for Meteorology and Atmospheric Sciences (IAMAS)
announces that the next
Quadrennial Ozone Symposium
QOS 2004
will be held in the island of Kos, Greece from 1 - 8 June, 2004

The Symposium is jointly organized by the International Ozone Commission (IOC) and the European Commission.

Ulrich Schumann, one of the world's foremost authorities on contrails will be there!
He will be presenting on June 8th.
========================
I predict no chemmies will even attend the Symposium. They are losers,
before they even begin.

Halva:'

Maybe I can go to this!

Gaiacomm, it will be good if you can. People of weight in the community here have been convinced of the 'chemtrails' case, though they will wait until after the Olympic Games before moving.

Rank-and-file activists are also mobilising around the climate change issue, which is a natural introduction to chemtrails/geoengineering, and they are not likely to wait until after the Olympics.

The peculiar arrogance of the left-over debunkers hanging around this forum merely reflects the peculiarities of their own introduction to the subject of argument. They learned that it was important to argue that chemtrails are contrails. The chemtrail/contrail dispute for anyone coming into the debate now around the issue of climate change, is a historical curiosity and extremely difficult to understand or to become interested in.

[gaiacomm]

I now challenge halva and Liakopoulos(along with any others) to present their case for "Chemtrails" before this gathering of atmospheric scientists in Greece.

" The International Ozone Commission (IOC) of the International Association for Meteorology and Atmospheric Sciences (IAMAS)
announces that the next
Quadrennial Ozone Symposium
QOS 2004
will be held in the island of Kos, Greece from 1 - 8 June, 2004

The Symposium is jointly organized by the International Ozone Commission (IOC) and the European Commission.



Halva:

Yes you are right!

I will check into going and speaking at the conference along with some other scientists that I know!
Ulrich Schumann, one of the world's foremost authorities on contrails will be there!
He will be presenting on June 8th.
========================
I predict no chemmies will even attend the Symposium. They are losers,
before they even begin.

Halva:'

Maybe I can go to this!

Gaiacomm, it will be good if you can. People of weight in the community here have been convinced of the 'chemtrails' case, though they will wait until after the Olympic Games before moving.

Rank-and-file activists are also mobilising around the climate change issue, which is a natural introduction to chemtrails/geoengineering, and they are not likely to wait until after the Olympics.

The peculiar arrogance of the left-over debunkers hanging around this forum merely reflects the peculiarities of their own introduction to the subject of argument. They learned that it was important to argue that chemtrails are contrails. The chemtrail/contrail dispute for anyone coming into the debate now around the issue of climate change, is a historical curiosity and extremely difficult to understand or to become interested in.

[gaiacomm]

http://www.qos2004.gr/

[lynn george]

And your article does not provide any evidence of a current vast international spraying conspiracy.

SmT- Correct. I never suggested a "vast international spraying conspiracy". While there may or may not be one, this is irrelevant to the fact there are chemtrail programs.


ATP said" Your article is dating from 1994, dealing with small scales tests of bacteria from 49-69.


SmT- Correct on the date of 1994 for the testimoney, BUT also, and let's not forget the article points to the fact chemical and biological spraying occurred up UNTIL that point that the testimoney was given 1994. It did NOT STOP in 69. Where did you get that from??? I personally think it is ludicrous to suggest the militray/gov. doesn't CONTINUE to perform large scale testing and somehow magically stopped on that date after DECADES. Is that what you are suggesting? And I wouldn't call spraying HUNDREDS of cities small scale. Or MILLIONS of people. But you're certainly welcome to your opinion.



ATP said " Chemmies" say chemtrails did not start until late 90s, which debunks your article anyways, even from a chemmie point of view


SMT- You see the problem with stereotyping "groups" and how your last sentence is really rather meaningless? What exactly is a "chemmie" anyway? Isn't that just a cheap shot to put someone down who has experienced something you apparently haven't? Do ALL chemmies say this? Or perhaps 80%? 60%? Have you done or seen a survey of "chemmies" that show what "they" collectively or even individually think? Isn't your assessment really groundless? And what exactly is a "chemmie point of view"? Again this type of thinking will not take us where we want to go, which is closer to truth. Let's move back to the subject shall we?

Many of the chemtrail spraying reports talk about BIOLOGICAL spraying NOT JUST that performed for weather modification. If I were to fall into your " group think" I could well say all "bunkies" think that there is a grand conspiracy of people know as "chemmies" that think there is a giant conspiracy. That's really rather a rather ridiculous way of looking at the world don't you think. Let's think of these varied "sprayings" as what they are. So many different programs of all types for all purposes. While some of the programs may be indeed much larger and much more coordinated, to try and turn this research into some big "conspiracy thing" is silly. Instead of down playing all of these programs our time would be much better spent IMO talking about the individual programs and how they are directly affecting citizens? How about trying to share some constructive ideas. What do you know about geoengineering or current military experiments being perfromed on the public? Anything?

SmT

[airtankerpilot]

And your article does not provide any evidence of a current vast international spraying conspiracy.

SmT- Correct. I never suggested a "vast international spraying conspiracy". While there may or may not be one, this is irrelevant to the fact there are chemtrail programs.


ATP said" Your article is dating from 1994, dealing with small scales tests of bacteria from 49-69.


SmT- Correct on the date of 1994 for the testimoney, BUT also, and let's not forget the article points to the fact chemical and biological spraying occurred up UNTIL that point that the testimoney was given 1994. It did NOT STOP in 69. Where did you get that from??? I personally think it is ludicrous to suggest the militray/gov. doesn't CONTINUE to perform large scale testing and somehow magically stopped on that date after DECADES. Is that what you are suggesting? And I wouldn't call spraying HUNDREDS of cities small scale. Or MILLIONS of people. But you're certainly welcome to your opinion.



ATP said " Chemmies" say chemtrails did not start until late 90s, which debunks your article anyways, even from a chemmie point of view


SMT- You see the problem with stereotyping "groups" and how your last sentence is really rather meaningless? What exactly is a "chemmie" anyway? Isn't that just a cheap shot to put someone down who has experienced something you apparently haven't? Do ALL chemmies say this? Or perhaps 80%? 60%? Have you done or seen a survey of "chemmies" that show what "they" collectively or even individually think? Isn't your assessment really groundless? And what exactly is a "chemmie point of view"? Again this type of thinking will not take us where we want to go, which is closer to truth. Let's move back to the subject shall we?

Many of the chemtrail spraying reports talk about BIOLOGICAL spraying NOT JUST that performed for weather modification. If I were to fall into your " group think" I could well say all "bunkies" think that there is a grand conspiracy of people know as "chemmies" that think there is a giant conspiracy. That's really rather a rather ridiculous way of looking at the world don't you think. Let's think of these varied "sprayings" as what they are. So many different programs of all types for all purposes. While some of the programs may be indeed much larger and much more coordinated, to try and turn this research into some big "conspiracy thing" is silly. Instead of down playing all of these programs our time would be much better spent IMO talking about the individual programs and how they are directly affecting citizens? How about trying to share some constructive ideas. What do you know about geoengineering or current military experiments being perfromed on the public? Anything?

SmT

A chemmie is someone who believes there is a deliberate large scale spraying conspiracy, as evidenced by some aircraft contrails persisting.

While you think calling it "big" is silly, thats just according to the descriptions of other chemmies, who think that hundreds and thousands of planes are involve, all over the world.

They also think that if you see aircrafts contrails that intersect, or if they run parallel, that means spraying. It would have to be HUGE to pull off what they are saying is happening.

Some say the planes are releasing viruses to kill off people, other claim red blood cells, other claim it is "chemgoo", other claim fibers, other say barium and others claim aluminum.

Some even claim space aliens are involved, such as the Greys, and it is being done from Orb spaceships.



mT- Correct on the date of 1994 for the testimoney, BUT also, and let's not forget the article points to the fact chemical and biological spraying occurred up UNTIL that point that the testimoney was given 1994. It did NOT STOP in 69.

As described in my book, Clouds of Secrecy, the army began a program in 1949 to assess the nation's vulnerability to attack with biological weapons. During the next 20 years, the army released simulant agents over hundreds of populated areas around the country. Targets included portions of Hawaii and Alaska, San Francisco, St. Louis, Minneapolis, New York City, Washington, D.C., Key West, and many other cities. The purpose was to see how the bacteria spread and survived as people went about their normal activities.

1949 + 20 = 1969. That is coming from your own source. Are you debunking yourself?

While those flights might fall into what you feel is chemtrails, those kind of flights would not have left some visible trail, and were probably done from low level, not the flight levels of large transport category aircraft in the chemtrail conspiracy.

An aircraft cant carry enough {insert chemical of choice to fits ones feelings} to leave a large visible trail across the sky for hundreds and thousands of miles.

Nor do contrails have to look all pretty and short, with quick dissipation, each and every time. Even Sore Throat admits contrails can persist naturally, he just thinks it is occuring more often. Chemtrail believers have not even said why contrails can not persist, but that does not stop them from jumping to loony conspiracies each time they see one.

The fact remains, people with aviation and meteorological expertise do not believe in chemtrails. And those who believe in chemtrails do not have any aviation or meteorlogical expertise.

[jayreynolds]

Please take the time to carefully read the testimoney.
http://home.comcast.net/~kknowlto/openair.htm
Regards, SmT

The link supplied by SMT is to testimony by Dr. Leonard Cole. Back in 1999, when chemmies started citing his testimony, I decided to track him down through the Rurtger's University listings and see what he thought about the "chemtrails" hoax. He wasn't happy at all about your using his testimony to support thr idea of "chemtrails", had never heard of the hoax, and considered the idea preposterous. I'm sure that by now, five years later, with no proof whatsoever coming out for your case, he feels the same.

Still, I challenge you to contact him yourself, if you dare. I predict you will not even make the attempt, just like you refused to asnwer my basic questions about 'chemtrails'.

Care to make a stab now, SMT?

Which of the following is true:
1.) Chemtrails cause global warming, contrails prevent it
2.) Chemtrails prevent global warming, contrails cause it
3.) Chemtrails and contrails cause global warming
4.) Chemtrails and contrails prevent global warming
5.) Chemtrails are a hoax, and contrails may eventually contribute to global warming
6.) It doesn't really matter because the Earth is going into a cooling cycle (which will no doubt be blamed on geo-engineering / chemtrails

And lest we forget, the ten deadly questions left unanswered

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. What is your claim about the purpose of "chemtrails, what are they for?

[jayreynolds]

SMT, a year after I spoke with Dr. Leonard Cole, Darren Keast also contacted him for an artcile he did in 2000. Here is what Keast found:

"Bio-warfare proponents are bolstered by Dr. Leonard Cole (Rutgers University), who testified before the US Senate about army vulnerability testing staged between 1949-1969 (and still today at Salt Lake City's 'Dugway Proving Ground'). Agents released 'simulants' later found to be toxic from cars' exhaust pipes, wind-powered suitcases, boats, and even light-bulbs thrown New York City subway cars' tracks to test domestic vulnerability to bio-chemical warfare attacks.

With proven records of populace testing behind 'Clouds of Secrecy', what's to cast doubt on contemporary high altitude spraying claims?
Lack of evidence for one. No chemtrail conspiracy proponent has released documented lab tests of the trails' composition. Thomas still hasn't published his 'EPA' lab test results anywhere. A 'New Mexico' newspaper interviewer quoted him saying he would do so if offered grants large enough to launch proper investigations. More questionable still is his chemtrail remedy pills business.

Cole isn't aware of any modern jet plane testing and considers it unlikely the military would test at such heights: results would be difficult to track over such wide areas. The aviation science underlying claims is also problematic, according to marine turbine engineer Jay Reynolds, the most notable chemtrail debunker: "If you pass almost any chemical through a gas turbine engine, the combustion temperature is like 2000 degrees. Nothing survives: it's an incinerator."

[gaiacomm]

Its amazing how a toilet designer can have so much knowledge of chemtrails and be so sure. Never published a paper but can tell you which way waste flows down a pipe to the ocean. Jay designs equipment that ads waste to the environment. He designs sewer equipment that dumps waste into the ocean for the fish to feed for the humans to consume, for the humans to get sick and die.

Jay gets paid to design waste equipment that eventually kills people over time. So the idiots follow this person who depends on the internet for power and has never been to a library since school and his wife Karen does not know of his cyberjunkie diease.

Jay taunts people to play with him because he is so lonely and alone and needs the comapny of us all to make him feel whole again and gain his manhood back.

Just think, Jays toilets on ships are dumping waste into your drinking water and food chain.

He should be fined by the federal government for contributing to the damaging of the environment and be sued by the families of the people that died as a result of his toilets which carries the dieases to the sea!

And, arrested and placed in prison for his environmental crimes.

I am sure that there is a lawyer somewhere that can create a case based on this type info and file a class action lawsuit to take jays house, farm, and designer toilets in his garage. Ths will of course drive poor Karen away and maybe find another man that will love her like she always wanted but could not quite get from Jay. And his children the same...daddy just did not give us the love we needed!

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Jay and his group have nothing to do but to fill up space on this forum website with opinion, cut and paste from other sources on the Internet and other public available data.

They are not scientists but wantabe’s in this chemtrail arena.

Scientists are too busy with ego and grants than to place them in a forum that will eliminate their private and federal funds for their respective projects.

The few that make claim only skate around the issue.

There is too much at risk to expose the entire truth of the matter and Jay and others take advantage and exploit it to no end!

They know that chemtrails exist and what causes contrails.

If you all are that gullible to be sucked in to Jay’s world of despair and the other cowards that hide with him then you all deserve the anguish and insult that comes with Jay and his group.

You allow Jay to poke at your egos and that is what he relies on.

Jay designs toilets for ships; he can tell which direction waste goes down a pipe.

But for chemtrails he has no further access than anyone else.

Halva is a socialist who champions causes for mankind and has a way to go for total success, but at least he honestly tries.

Chemtrails are not caused by billions of jets dumping fuel in the sky. Chemtrails is a small part of the whole. There are more emissions dumped in the air from cars and factories than all the aircraft in the world. The entire industrial system needs to be changed in order to stop the chemtrail activity. The contrails also contribute to the environment. So exposure of the facts is already in front of you, just take a breath and see.

It will take an act of congress to change the system or a collective revolution manned by the peoples of the world.

So until then, nothing will change until you change yourself, first!

[lynn george]

Of course ChemTrails are real.

What part of the post I supplied dealing with spraying chemical and biological trails over MILLIONS of people, in HUNDREDS of cities, over decades wasn't clear???

Here once again is testimoney given in front of a Senate panel that provides evidence of one of several branches of Chemtrails?

Please take the time to carefully read the testimoney.

http://home.comcast.net/~kknowlto/openair.htm

Regards,

SmT

Yaak said "Lynne, you appear to have your own personal definition of chemtrails. How do you suppose the population was exposed to the chemical and biological agents discussed at your referenced web site; with jets flying at 25,000 - 40,000 feet? Get real!"


SmT- No it's not really my own personal definition, in fact I believe most people understand "chemical trails" intentionally sprayed from aircraft for purposes other than transportation of the aircraft are chemtrails. Again most researchers will admit there are now many many different tests involving many different releases of chemicals. So you prefer to call them "contrails with added viruses" or "Biologically enhanced contrails"? What? What is YOUR definition of chemtrails if it is not "intentional" chemical trails? Also who ever said biological chemtrails had to be sprayed at 25,000-40,000 feet? Get real you say? How about get eyeglasses. If you had been more thorough you would have noticed many reports of "chemtrailing" at altitudes of 10,000 feet and even below. C'mon Yaak your not even trying to pay attention.



Yaak said"I'm sorry to have to be the one to break this news to you, but the topic of chemtrails is a dead issue. The argument now is whether or not jet contrails are being induced to persist. Will you please try to keep up? :D

SmT- Well, Yaak I hate to be the one to break it to YOU but all the different chemtrail programs are coming to light so fast now we even have mainstream outlets being used by industry to promote geoengineering while at the same time others deny it. My 7th grade children are now even learning from their science book about how to form a "sky shield" by airplanes pictured with the words "particle air" on the side spewing out long smokey looking trails to block the sun. So perhaps YOU should get real. Talk about not keeping up. REally Yaak!
:D
SmT

[Yaak]

Lynn George said, "If you had been more thorough you would have noticed many reports of "chemtrailing" at altitudes of 10,000 feet and even below."

Yes, under rare conditions CONTRAILS can form at ground level. I have read NASA's report. So what? You must not have read a word that Jay Reynolds just posted. "Reports of "chemtrailing at altitudes of 10,000 feet " by whom, fellow cult members?

Give us proof. You speak in generalizations. Please be specific. How about answering Jay's questions? Give it a try.

Theories, ideas and proposals are proof of nothing.

[lynn george]

Yaak said "Please be specific".

I thought I and many others here have been, Yaak. I'm not sure what you want. If you need more "proof" then you will have to go out and get it. I however have spent many many many hours already looking into the many different subjects that "chemtrails" encompasses as well as countless days out watching the skies sometimes the entire day. When I awaken to a crystal clear blue Missouri sky at 8:00 A.M. with absolutely ZERO clouds and can witness- what I know to be normal for this area-regular east-west air traffic leaving NO trails for hours and hours,and all of a sudden a "squadron" of planes that LOOK like commercial airliners (through binocs) but they seem to be spraying huge white spreading smokey looking trails appear, flying in semi-circles and directly at each other I know somethings up. And this is all in a blue sky with NO clouds originally until the squadron comes and ENTIRELY blots out the blue sky. You don't have to be a rocket scientist Yaak to know something is being INJECTED into the sky that is forming a white HAZE that eventually spreads to 100% of view. And all the while during the "exercise" the regular east west traffic and other traffic keep leaving NO trails or a few sproradic seconds long only trails. How can one explain this scenario Yaak. Can anyone really claim that on a day with no clouds with low humidity that there are planes flying leaving no trails and planes flying that appear by visual observation to be leaving huge white smokey spreading trails that appear by sight to be roughly the same size, the only dfference in the trails is perhaps a few thousand feet. How about when one witnesses ( and I have) a plane leaving a huge smokey white spreading trail and another jet flying above and over the spreading contrail leaving only a few seconds long contrail. Though it may be easy to criticize my judgement and bring up the usual criticism of observation, and you are certainly welcome to, I have no stake in 'chemtrails' other than to say I personally KNOW there are operations going on, but feel free to doubt. I do not know if these operations are cloud seeding/creation, U.V. reduction, wind/cloud mapping, global cooling mechanisms. or what but that SOMETHING is being sprayed, intentionally, that is creating clouds and a huge HAZE that seems to linger most days now is indisputable for me. I have spent too much time observing the local air traffic patterns and affects on weather. But then again I don't expect anyone to take my word for it. If one actually spends the time to simply observe the sky over a reasonable period of time I am convinced they can observe these programs/experiments being carried out. That is if they really want to. Not everyone it seems does.. But in the mean time if anyone really wants to know the current science simply check into the subject of geoengineering. Sore Throat posted some great links as did some others.

SmT

SmT

[jayreynolds]

SMT wrote:
"If you had been more thorough you would have noticed many reports of "chemtrailing" at altitudes of 10,000 feet and even below."

BOGUS. I've been hearing these "reports" for years now. Ever wonder why almost the pictures of "chemtrails" show no plane at all, a little dot or ashiny spot? That's because they are six miles high, and often fifty, even 100 miles away. nobody ever comes up with 10,000 ft "chemtrailing" pictures.

[lynn george]

SMT wrote:
"If you had been more thorough you would have noticed many reports of "chemtrailing" at altitudes of 10,000 feet and even below."

BOGUS. I've been hearing these "reports" for years now. Ever wonder why almost the pictures of "chemtrails" show no plane at all, a little dot or ashiny spot? That's because they are six miles high, and often fifty, even 100 miles away. nobody ever comes up with 10,000 ft "chemtrailing" pictures.

SmT- If the picture shows "no plane at all" I would assume it would be difficult to determine whether the trail was 10K or 40 K feet. Or perhaps only several thousand. It should probably not be forgotten also that chemtrails and contrails can fall to much much lower altitudes from where they first originate. Also lets not forget that chemtrail reports of blood cells, pathogens, other biological agents etc. could easily be sprayed at much lower altitudes as some have suggested below 10,000 feet .
SmT

[Yaak]

Lynn, has it ever occured to you that the atmosphere has been changed carelessly, but unintentionally, and that you are seeing the results of these careless changes? If you read what Foot Soldier and Sore Throat have posted you would realize this.

There is almost no air traffic over Terlingua, Texas, but it is quickly increasing. Today, maybe 8 jets flew over and left a variety of contrails: several smeared into cirrus clouds and lasted for hours, one was a dripping looking trail, another was a series of dashes, there was one that essed back and forth like a snake. They all appeared to be at high altitudes, because I could barely see any of the jets. I found none of the contrails to be suspicious looking.

Why do you want, so hard, to believe that hundreds of thousands of people have been secretly working to change Earth's atmosphere? You don't know who, what or why; you just know. That sounds very childish.

[halva]

Understand that Reynolds, Yaak, and company, speak in a code. Their words mean something different from their manifest content, although in Yaak's case I am not sure he could say what it is.

Patience. We have got them tied down in this forum until the final day of reckoning.

[Yaak]

Halva sputtered, "Understand that Reynolds, Yaak, and company, speak in a code."
Only to chemmies. Rational people recognize our speech for what it is: THE TRUTH!

[gaiacomm]

Its amazing how a toilet designer can have so much knowledge of chemtrails and be so sure. Never published a paper but can tell you which way waste flows down a pipe to the ocean. Jay designs equipment that ads waste to the environment. He designs sewer equipment that dumps waste into the ocean for the fish to feed for the humans to consume, for the humans to get sick and die.

Jay gets paid to design waste equipment that eventually kills people over time. So the idiots follow this person who depends on the internet for power and has never been to a library since school and his wife Karen does not know of his cyberjunkie diease.

Jay taunts people to play with him because he is so lonely and alone and needs the comapny of us all to make him feel whole again and gain his manhood back.

Just think, Jays toilets on ships are dumping waste into your drinking water and food chain.

He should be fined by the federal government for contributing to the damaging of the environment and be sued by the families of the people that died as a result of his toilets which carries the dieases to the sea!

And, arrested and placed in prison for his environmental crimes.

I am sure that there is a lawyer somewhere that can create a case based on this type info and file a class action lawsuit to take jays house, farm, and designer toilets in his garage. Ths will of course drive poor Karen away and maybe find another man that will love her like she always wanted but could not quite get from Jay. And his children the same...daddy just did not give us the love we needed!

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Jay and his group have nothing to do but to fill up space on this forum website with opinion, cut and paste from other sources on the Internet and other public available data.

They are not scientists but wantabe’s in this chemtrail arena.

Scientists are too busy with ego and grants than to place them in a forum that will eliminate their private and federal funds for their respective projects.

The few that make claim only skate around the issue.

There is too much at risk to expose the entire truth of the matter and Jay and others take advantage and exploit it to no end!

They know that chemtrails exist and what causes contrails.

If you all are that gullible to be sucked in to Jay’s world of despair and the other cowards that hide with him then you all deserve the anguish and insult that comes with Jay and his group.

You allow Jay to poke at your egos and that is what he relies on.

Jay designs toilets for ships; he can tell which direction waste goes down a pipe.

But for chemtrails he has no further access than anyone else.

Halva is a socialist who champions causes for mankind and has a way to go for total success, but at least he honestly tries.

Chemtrails are not caused by billions of jets dumping fuel in the sky. Chemtrails is a small part of the whole. There are more emissions dumped in the air from cars and factories than all the aircraft in the world. The entire industrial system needs to be changed in order to stop the chemtrail activity. The contrails also contribute to the environment. So exposure of the facts is already in front of you, just take a breath and see.

It will take an act of congress to change the system or a collective revolution manned by the peoples of the world.

So until then, nothing will change until you change yourself, first!

[halva]

Yaak I wish you would stop triggering this spam from Gaiacomm.

He speaks in code also and I wish both of you would stop doing it.

[halva]

I now challenge halva and Liakopoulos(along with any others) to present their case for "Chemtrails" before this gathering of atmospheric scientists in Greece.

" The International Ozone Commission (IOC) of the International Association for Meteorology and Atmospheric Sciences (IAMAS)
announces that the next
Quadrennial Ozone Symposium
QOS 2004
will be held in the island of Kos, Greece from 1 - 8 June, 2004

The Symposium is jointly organized by the International Ozone Commission (IOC) and the European Commission.

Ulrich Schumann, one of the world's foremost authorities on contrails will be there!
He will be presenting on June 8th.
========================
I predict no chemmies will even attend the Symposium. They are losers,
before they even begin.

Catherine Austin Fitts, former Assistant Secretary of Housing in the first Bush government, and someone I like to regard as a 'kindred spirit' wrote this at the conclusion of her essay "The American Tapeworm:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0304/S00228.htm

"All solutions are found when we realize that this is something you and I can correct without wasting more time trying to find someone in charge of the tapeworm to persuade them to change its ways. It can’t change"

Reynolds is sending us to this symposium as petitioners "to find someone in charge of the tapeworm to persuade them to change its ways".

If we went there we would be going to these people and asking them to solve problems they cannot solve, to provide answers they cannot provide. Do you think anyone in this dilemma would give an outsider a friendly reception?

If Gaiacomm does what he says he may do and attends this symposium in Kos he will be going not as a petitioner but as an envoy from those who are offering to try to solve the political problem the IOC and the IAMAS cannot solve.

[liakopoulos]

DEAR JAY I AM REALLY FLATTERED FOR YOUR KIND COMMENTS. DO I SPEAK ENGLISH THAT GOOD? I DON'T THINK SO. BUT LET ME TELL YOU THIS. I AM AN AMERICAN AS MUCH AS YOU ARE. SHALOM.......

[liakopoulos]

HEYJAY, WHAT IS THE NATIONALITY OF SCHUMANN????????????????? AND WHY IS HE AN AUTHORITY ON CONTRAILS?

[liakopoulos]

HEY JAY, WHAT IS GAIA TALKIN' ABOUT? ARE YOUR TOILET DESIGNS ILLEGAL? ARE THE FEDs AFTER YOU AFTER ALL?....................................PROPOSITIO N TO GAIACOMM: IF JAY FINDS HIMSELF BEHIND BARS, WE ARE OBLIGATED TO ACUMULATE THE PROPER KNOWLEDGE TO DESIGN A PROPER TOILET FOR HIM (THE MOSSAD CAMERA INCLUDED). POOR JAY ,LUCKY YOU ,IF YOU GO TO KOS ISLAND YOU'LL BE ABLE TO EXERCISE ONE OF YOUR PRIME FUNCTIONS. THE CLIMATE THERE IS PERFECT FOR ONNION PLANTING.

[jayreynolds]

halva and 'Liakopoulos' can try to minimize the blowback from refusing to accept my challenge to present their "chemtrail" theory to world-class scientists convening right there in Greece. Just like 'Sore' refused to present at the American Aerosol Asociation last summer when they convened in his home state of California.

Challenged to present tangible evidence for their 'beliefs', they quickly fall backwards in a catatonic state. They know that scientists would ask exactly the same questions I have asked for the past 66 pages, and they are afraid because they know the answers show that their belief is a hoax.

What chemmies don't want you to think about is that while I know more about the "Chemtrails" hoax than anyone else on earth, and plenty about contrails, there are 'big guns' out there in the world that know more about contrails than I will ever know. If chemmies really had their act together, they would eventually get to engage such luminaries as Dr. Schumann in debate.

Considering that they fail to even engage me, or fail miserably when they try, woe to them if they ever do actually find themelves face-to-face with a real contrails expert.

Right here, right now, they have shown the intellectual poorhouse
in which the "chemtrails" cult resides.
Jay
=============================
http://www.dlr.de/ipa/Schumann/
Prof. Dr. Ulrich Schumann
Head of the Institute

Personal Data
http://www.dlr.de/ipa/Schumann/person
Publications
http://www.dlr.de/ipa/Schumann/Publikationen
Thesis Reports
http://www.dlr.de/ipa/Schumann/thesis


Publications (downloads)

Aviation and Environment: Effects of Aircraft Emissions on Ozone, Cirrus Clouds, and Global Climate.
schumann-029-033.pdf (8 MB) or schumann-029-033.zip (3.7 MB)

Ozon Research Results: DLR-Nachrichten, 2000.
DLR_Ozon_28-35.pdf (1.1 MB)

25 Years Falcon: DLR-Nachrichten, March 2001.
DLR_Falcon_02-09.pdf (2.7 MB)

Ice supersaturation and Cirrus: JGR, Aug. 2001.
Jensen_Ice_Supersaturation_2000JD900526.pdf (3.5 MB)

NOx and O3 in the Tropopause region: JGR, Nov. 2001.
Brunner_JGR_2001JD900239.pdf (6.2 MB)

Aircraft Emissions: a Review published in the Encyclopedia Britannica (see also www.wiley.co.uk/egec ).
Schumann_Encyclopedia_Aircraft_Emissions_c415-_o.pdf (0.2 MB)

Results of the SULFUR-Experiments: JGR, 2002, in press.
SULFUR_2001JD000813-Text.pdf (0.4 MB)

SOx Modelling in engines: Aerospace Sci. Techn., 2002.
Starik.pdf (0.4 MB)

U. Schumann: Klimawandel und Treibhauseffekt, Münchner Wissenschaftstage 2002 "Lebendige Erde", TU München, Vortrag, 18.10.2002.
Mü_Wi-Tage_18_Okt_02_Schumann.pdf (2.5 MB)
Mü_Wi-Tage_18_Okt_02_Schumann.ppt (2.9 MB)


Special Documents


FORTRAN Subroutine SCHMIDT for evaluation of the Schmidt-Appleman criterion determining the threshold temperature for contrail formation

Contact

Institut fuer Physik der Atmosphaere
DLR Oberpfaffenhofen
Postfach 1116
D-82230 Wessling
Telefon: +49-8153-28-2520
Telefax: +49-8153-28-1841
E-Mail: Ulrich.Schumann@dlr.de

DLR, Institute of Atmospheric Physics

[jayreynolds]

Yaak said "Please be specific".

I thought I and many others here have been, Yaak. I'm not sure what you want. If you need more "proof" then you will have to go out and get it. I however have spent many many many hours already looking into the many different subjects that "chemtrails" encompasses as well as countless days out watching the skies sometimes the entire day. When I awaken to a crystal clear blue Missouri sky at 8:00 A.M. with absolutely ZERO clouds and can witness- what I know to be normal for this area-regular east-west air traffic leaving NO trails for hours and hours,and all of a sudden a "squadron" of planes that LOOK like commercial airliners (through binocs) but they seem to be spraying huge white spreading smokey looking trails appear, flying in semi-circles and directly at each other I know somethings up. And this is all in a blue sky with NO clouds originally until the squadron comes and ENTIRELY blots out the blue sky. You don't have to be a rocket scientist Yaak to know something is being INJECTED into the sky that is forming a white HAZE that eventually spreads to 100% of view. And all the while during the "exercise" the regular east west traffic and other traffic keep leaving NO trails or a few sproradic seconds long only trails. How can one explain this scenario Yaak. Can anyone really claim that on a day with no clouds with low humidity that there are planes flying leaving no trails and planes flying that appear by visual observation to be leaving huge white smokey spreading trails that appear by sight to be roughly the same size, the only dfference in the trails is perhaps a few thousand feet. How about when one witnesses ( and I have) a plane leaving a huge smokey white spreading trail and another jet flying above and over the spreading contrail leaving only a few seconds long contrail. Though it may be easy to criticize my judgement and bring up the usual criticism of observation, and you are certainly welcome to, I have no stake in 'chemtrails' other than to say I personally KNOW there are operations going on, but feel free to doubt. I do not know if these operations are cloud seeding/creation, U.V. reduction, wind/cloud mapping, global cooling mechanisms. or what but that SOMETHING is being sprayed, intentionally, that is creating clouds and a huge HAZE that seems to linger most days now is indisputable for me. I have spent too much time observing the local air traffic patterns and affects on weather. But then again I don't expect anyone to take my word for it. If one actually spends the time to simply observe the sky over a reasonable period of time I am convinced they can observe these programs/experiments being carried out. That is if they really want to. Not everyone it seems does.. But in the mean time if anyone really wants to know the current science simply check into the subject of geoengineering. Sore Throat posted some great links as did some others.

SmT

SmT

SMT:
- you have failed to respond to my basic questions about contrails and "chemtrails".
-you have failed to respond to my suggestion that you contact Dr. Leonard Cole, whom you cite as 'evidence' of past government experimentation.
-You have, above, described exactly the scene I see played out in the sky above me, for I live in northern Arkansas near the Missouri border. You are likely no more than 100 miles away from me, and we could easily be seeing exactly the same contrails.

The difference between us is that I have actually identified the planes flying using Flight Explorer! What I found is that they are almost all ordinary commercial flights. What military planes I see leave exactly the same contrails as the commercial traffic does.

I challenge you to use Flight Explorer, to reproduce Thermit's study, and document your findings.

If you do you will truly become SHOW ME TRUTH'

If you fail, you will become SHOW ME FAILURE

[liakopoulos]

WHERE DID YOU FIND ALL THOSE FUNCY WORDS YOU USED IN YOUR LAST ENTRIES JAY? HAVE YOU BEEN READING HAMLET LATELY? OR PERHAPS YOU DECIDED TO SHOW US WHAT A CULTURED MAN A TOILET DESIGNER CAN BE!

[liakopoulos]

HALLO JAY ,VIELEICHT DR SCHUMAN KONTE IM ARIANAS KOMMEN UND UBER CONTRAILS EINIGE ANTWORTEN GEBEN! SONST DU KANST NUR BEOBACHTEN!

[liakopoulos]

GET TOGETHER JAY AND DON'T BE RIDICOLOUS. DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF AN EXPERT ON CHEMTRAILS? ARE YOU NUTS? DO YOU THINK THAT SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE CAN BE ACHIEVED BY READING ARTICLES IN THE WEB? PLEASE FOCUS YOUR EFFORTS ONYOUR TWO PRIME OCUPATIONS. YOU KNOW WHATA MEAN, DONTYA?

[liakopoulos]

AND JAY, LET ME REMIND YOU THAT YOU HAVE STILL NOT ANSWERED THE FIVE MAIN QUESTIONS ON TOILET DESIGNING. AT GAIA'S THEY 'RE STILL LAUGHING THEIR ASHES .NOW LOOK ,LET TELL YOU SOMETHIN' SIMPLE. WHEN SOMEONE IS NOT SURE OF HIMSELF AND CAN NOT DEAL WITH THE OPOSITE SIDE, LIKE YOU FOR INSTANCE ,HE ALWAYS TRIES TO HIDE BEHIND THE KNOWLEDGE AND PRESTIGE OF OTHERS. IN THE LAST 65 OR SO PAGES, YOU BROUGHT UP TENTHS OF NAMES OF SCIENTISTS, WHOM OF COURSE YOU DO NOT KNOW, AND WHOSE BELIEFS ON THE DEBATE'S SUBJECT ARE UNKNOWN TO YOU. I KNOW THAT GAIACOMM WOULD PREFER TO IGNORE YOU.......DONTYA WORRY THOUGH LITTLE JAY, I'M ALL HEART. I'LL BE WATCHIN'YA. BESIDES YOU ARE THE PERFECT EXAMPLE OF INCOMPETENCE. YOU ARE "ALL SHOW BUT NO GO" !

[gaiacomm]

I am making contact to go to the conference. The problem is that all abstracts on subjects had to be submitted early on. I can still serve on a committee with a group. But I will pull a string with the group to get some air time. Jay you are a fool to think that someone would not go.

Jay if you wish to go I will pay for everything to Greece...even for Karen and I can get you on a group to talk if you like.

No hard feelings!

Now Jay you can present your case! Do you wish to go to Greece? I will pay for it all!

[gaiacomm]

http://www.qos2004.gr/



Jay let me know!

Wayne, if everything goes to plan I will meet you in Greece.'

I have downloaded everything on chemtrails on 3 CD disks from the Chemtrail Centrail site and others.

Jay why do you place these scientist names for us to contact.
They would love to hear from a toliet designer!

[gaiacomm]

Jay;

contact these people if you like or I can!
Tell me if you and Karen wish to go....Its FREE!

Professor : Christos S. Zerefos
Secretary of IOC, University of Athens,
Faculty of Geology, Athens 15784, Greece
Tel: +30 210 7274133
Fax: +30 210 7274157
E-mail: zerefos@geol.uoa.gr

Secretariat QOS2004 : Seta Gazerian, Stella Thoma, Rania Kopalidou
University of Athens, Faculty of Geology,
Athens 15784, Greece
Tel: +30 210 7274157
Fax: +30 210 7274157
E-mail: info@QOS2004.gr
URL: www.QOS2004.gr

[gaiacomm]

OLYMPIC AIRLINES

Olympic Airlines, the official carrier for the Quadrennial Ozone Symposium 2004, offers discounted fares for participants and accompanying persons. Discounts are valid internationally.

In order to benefit from the offer, participants to QOS2004 should quote the code reference "Conference 018", which immediately identifies the discount.

Further information may be obtained by phoning Olympic Airlines (+30 210 9666666) or a travel agent.

www.olympicairlines.com

[gaiacomm]

The International Ozone Commission (IOC) of IAMAS is offering travel grants for graduate students attending Universities/Colleges within the United States, to attend the Quadrennial Ozone Symposium 2004. This Symposium will be held on the island of Kos, in Greece. The travel grants will cover the airfare, accommodation, and per diem. The scientific areas to be covered by the Symposium can be found on the web site. Students are encouraged to present a poster extended abstract, and priority will be given to those students who are principal authors.

Applicants are requested to submit:

A letter requesting travel support together with the abstract of a poster extended abstract (if applicable),
One letter of recommendation,
A short curriculum vitae, and
A letter verifying that the applicant is a graduate student in good standing at a University/College within the United States. Applicants will be informed of a decision by February 20, 2004.
Applications should be sent to the address below on or before February 6, 2004:

Professor Robert D. Hudson,
President, International Ozone Commission,
Department of Meteorology,
University of Maryland,
College Park, MD 20742-2425
Phone 301 405 5394, Fax 301 314-9482
email: hudson@atmos.umd.edu

Applications from women, minorities and individuals with disabilities, are strongly encouraged.

[gaiacomm]

Getting into Athens from the "Eleftherios Venizelos" International Airport



Athens International Airport (Eleftherios Venizelos) is located 33km southeast from the center of Athens (Syntagma Square). It is easily accessible via Attiki Odos, a six-lane motorway part of the Athens City Ring Road.

Public transport to Athens and the Port of Piraeus is provided by express airport bus connections on a 24 h basis, ensuring efficient transport for air travelers and facilitating linkage to key tourist destinations.

Further information on how to get to Athens from the airport (buses, time schedule etc) can be found on www.aia.gr

[gaiacomm]

Accommodation In Athens

The Local Organizing Committee has arranged for special prices in case you wish to stay in Athens before or after your trip to Kos. The prices are listed below. In case you wish to make a reservation, please contact the hotel managements directly.

Hotel rates per room, per night in Euro (Including American Buffet Breakfast and taxes)

Oscar Hotel Esperia Palace Hotel Zafolia Hotel Plaka Hotel Achilleas Hotel Hermes Hotel Arion Hotel
Single 65 130 132 100 100 100 100
Double/Twin 80 150 145 115 115 115 115
Other Please contact with the reservations office

Further information on how to move to Athens can be found on: www.chem.uoa.gr/Location/AthensMap/Athensmap.htm

[gaiacomm]

Deadline: 15 April 2004

Contact Person in Hotel: Mrs Astero PITIA / Reservations Officer reservations@kipriotis.gr, tel: +30 22420 27640, fax: +30 22420 23590

Please fill in your details and press SUBMIT


Before 30 March 2004 After 30 March 2004
€ €
Full Registration 350 400
Student Registration 150 200
Accompany Persons 100 150

Notes:

Student rates also apply to participants from developing countries and countries with economy in transition.
A university certification will be requested for students.
LOC will ask for grants for supporting participants from developing countries and countries with economy in transition and for young scientists under the age of 30 years. Interested participants should be aware that total amounts will be limited and that submission of applications must be made before December 31, 2003.
Registration fee includes a full participation of the Symposium and some of the social activities.

[airtankerpilot]

SMT wrote:
"If you had been more thorough you would have noticed many reports of "chemtrailing" at altitudes of 10,000 feet and even below."

BOGUS. I've been hearing these "reports" for years now. Ever wonder why almost the pictures of "chemtrails" show no plane at all, a little dot or ashiny spot? That's because they are six miles high, and often fifty, even 100 miles away. nobody ever comes up with 10,000 ft "chemtrailing" pictures.

Oh they have even made claims of 3000' altitude trails, but of course never any photographs. From that elevation the plane type, (and airline) would be very visible. I recall one claiming airliners were flying over his house at 200 ft or so.

Just because a chemmie sees a contrail, feels it is made of chemicals and feels it is below 10,000' does not make it so.

[gaiacomm]

Just a sample:

TOMS Version-8 Standard and Research Data Products and Their Applications
(Ahmad S.P., J.E. Johnson, R.D. McPeters, P.K. Bhartia) Poster 1
2 Column ozone from Brewer zenith sky and direct-sun measurements under cloudy conditions: A case study using radiative transfer simulations
(Ahmad Z. 1,2, J. R. Herman2, R. McPeters2, P. K. Bhartia2, and G. Labow2,3) Poster 1
3 Meteorological Regimes and Ozone Trends: The Southern Hemisphere
(Andrade M., R. Hudson, M. Follette) Poster 1
4 Influence of permafrost on amount of ozone in atmosphere.
(Anohin S.G.) Poster 1
5 COMPARISON OF ULTRAVIOLET AND CHEMILUMINESCENT OZONE GAS ANALYSERS
(Arshinov M.Yu., B.D. Belan, A.V. Fofonov, O.A. Krasnov, V.K. Kovalevskii, V.A. Pirogov, and G.N. Tolmachev) Poster 1
6 Tree waves method for measurement of total content of ozone. Full compensation of measurements error
(Asadov H.H., Isayev A.A.) Poster 1
7 ASSIMILATION OF ERS2-GOME OZONE COLUMN DATA USING THE DLR-ROSE CHEMISTRY-TRANSPORT MODEL
(Baier Frank, Thilo Erbertseder, Beate Hildenbrand) Poster 1
8 Essential characteristics of the Antarctic-spring ozone decline up to December 2003
(Balis Dimitris S.1, Rumen D. Bojkov2) Poster 1
9 COMPARISONS OF NO2 PROFILES AT HIGH LATITUDES FROM SATELLITES AND BALLOONS MEASUREMENTS
(BAZUREAU A. F. GOUTAIL S. BROHEDE D.P. MURTAGH R.M. BEVILACQUA) Poster 1
10 SEASONAL DYNAMICS OF THE TROPOSPHERIC OZONE VERTICAL DISTRIBUTION OVER WEST SIBERIA
(Belan B.D., A.V. Fofonov, and G.N. Tolmachev) Poster 1
11 Highlights of the Version 8 SBUV and TOMS Datasets Released at this Symposium
(Bhartia Pawan K (1), Richard D. McPeters(1), Lawrence E. Flynn(2), Charles G. Wellemeyer(3)) Poster 1
12 The Version 8 SBUV Ozone Profile Algorithm
(Bhartia Pawan K. (1), Charles Wellemeyer, Steven L. Taylor, Nitya Nath, Arun Gopalan (2)) Poster 1
13 Examination of long-term changes in total ozone over Arosa station (1948-2002) and estimation of recovery time.
(Bialek Malgorzata) Poster 1
14 Quiet layers in stratospheric ozone variability: their relevance ozone trend detection and validation of satellite based ozone measurements
(Bittner Michael (1), Astrid Zimmermann (1), Beate Hildenbrand (1), Frank Baier (1), Thilo Erbertseder (1), Guy Brasseur (2)) Oral 1
15 ICSU's World Data Centre for Remote Sensing of the Atmosphere, WDC-RSAT
(Bittner Michael and Eleni Paliouras) Poster 1
16 Potential sources of anomalously low ozone over southern midlatitudes in 1985
(Bodeker G.E. ) Poster 1
17 LARGER UV-B INDICES FOR 2003 AT THE BRAZILIAN ANTARCTIC STATION
(Boian C., V.W.J.H. Kirchhoff, and N. Paes Leme ) Poster 1
18 Comparison of the ozone vertical profiles from satellite (SBUV/2-SMOBA) and ground-based (Umkehr) observations
(Bonawentura Rajewska-Więch, Janusz W. Krzyścin, and Janusz Jarosławski) Poster 1
19 Trend determination in the ozone series
(Borkowski Janusz L. ) Poster 1
20 Low total ozone events over northwestern Europe in the 1950s and 1990s
(Brönnimann Stefan Lon L. Hood) Poster 1
21 Total Ozone Prior to the International Geophysical Year (IGY)
(Brönnimann Stefan (1) Johannes Staehelin (2)) Poster 1
22 Ozone distributions in the Arctic winter/spring 2002/2003 and 2003/2004 as measured by the three atmospheric ENVISAT satellite instruments GOMOS, MIPAS, and SCIAMACHY
(Bracher Astrid, K.-U. Eichmann, C. v. Savigny, M. Weber, J.P. Burrows ) Oral 1
23 Trends in total ozone and in vertical ozone profiles reconstructed from a homogenized TOMS/GOME total ozone data set by data assimilation
(Brunner Dominik, Johannes Staehelin, Jörg Maeder, and Greg Bodeker) Oral 1
24 The observation of the total ozone content in Mongolia.
(Bujidmaa B. researcher) Poster 1
25 Solar activity - ozone relationships and its importance in decadal changes of photolysis rates in the atmosphere
(C. Zerefos(1),(2), K. Tourpali (3), D. Balis(3) and L. Hood(4)) Oral 1
26 High ozone events in two eastern North American corridors from 1980-2000
(Nicole M. Kordziel, Robert E. Davis, Jose D. Fuentes) Poster 4
27 Upper stratospheric ozone anomalies at the winter midlatitudes
(Calisesi Y., N. Kaempfer, and C. Dumitru) Poster 1
28 GEO-MTR: a 2-Dimensional Multi-Target Retrieval system for MIPAS/ENVISAT observations
(Carlotti M. (a), B.M. Dinelli (b), A. Dudhia (c), L. Magnani (b), E. Papandrea (a), M. Prevedelli (a), M. Ridolfi (a)) Oral 1
29 Ozone Profile Retrieval from Global Ozone Monitoring Experiment (GOME)
(Chance Kelly, Xiong Liu, Rob Spurr, Thomas Kurosu, Christopher Sioris, and Mike Newchurch) Poster 1
30 Dependence of total ozone trends on the natural oscillations
(Cho, Hi Ku(1), Jhoon Kim(1), Seon-Kyun Baek(2), Sung Nam Oh(2)) Poster 1
31 Vortex averaged ozone losses in the winter 2002/2003
(Christensen Tina, Bjorn Knudsen) Oral 1
32 On the mini Ozone hole over Europe on 14th February 2001
(Chubachi S., K.Miyagawa and Y. Makino) Poster 1
33 Evolution of ozone and temperature trends at Hohenpeissenberg
(Claude Hans, Ulf Köhler, Wolfgang Steinbrecht, ) Poster 1
34 Retrievals of a tertiary ozone layer in the mesosphere with data from OSIRIS on Odin
(D.A. Degenstein, J.T. Wiensz, R.L. Gattinger, N.D. Lloyd, A.E. Bourassa and E.J. Llewellyn) Poster 1
35 OMPS - The Next Generation Sensor Suite for Global Ozone Monitoring
(David Newell, James Leitch, Quinn Remund, Juan Rodriguez, and Scott Asbury) Poster 1
36 Cloud correction methods for the retrieval of the total ozone column from OMI data
(de Haan J.F. (1), J. Joiner(2), A. Vasilkov(3), J.P. Veefkind(1), P.F. Levelt(1)) Poster 1
37 Total tropospheric O3 columns: a model perspective.
(de Laat A.T.J. I. Aben) Poster 2
38 Long-Term SBUV and SBUV/2 Instrument Calibration for Version 8 Ozone Data
(DeLand Matthew, Liang-Kang Huang,Steven Taylor,Albert McKay,Richard Cebula) Poster 1
39 Modelling planetary boundary layer ozone at Uccle, using meteorological parameters
(Delcloo Andy, De Backer Hugo) Poster 4
40 TOTAL OZONE VARIATION IN THE SOUTH EASTERN EUROPE
(Demirhan Deniz, Ceyhan Kahya, Esra Koçer and Sema Topcu) Poster 1
41 Biomass burning impact on ozone budget over the East Mediterranean during summer 2000.
(Demirtzaki E.(1), Ladstaetter-Weissenmayer A. (2), Kanakidou M. (1), J. P. Burrows (2)) Poster 1
42 Correlated behaviour of total ozone and aerosol optical depth in the central Mediterranean
(di Sarra A. (1), P. Chamard(1), T. Di Iorio(2), G. Fiocco(2), D. Meloni(1,2), F. Monteleone(3), G. Pace(1), and S. Piacentino(4)) Poster 1
43 Overview of the winter-spring ozone deficiencies in the Northern middle and polar latitudes during the last 25-years
(Dimitris S. Balis and Rumen D. Bojkov) Poster 1
44 OBSERVATIONS OF OZONE VARIABILITY OVER SIBERIA: 1992-2004
(Dorokhov V., V.Sitnikova and G.Ivlev) Poster 1
45 Temporal evolution of total and vertical ozone distribution over Bern, Switzerland,from 9 yeras of ground based microwave observations
(Dumitru M.-C., N. Kämpfer, Y. Calisesi) Poster 1
46 ASSIMILATION OF ODIN/SMR O3 AND N2O STRATOSPHERIC MEASUREMENTS
(El Amraoui L. (1), P. Ricaud, J. Urban (1), B. Theodore (2), N. Lautiι (3), J. de La Noλ (1), E. Le Flochmoλn (1), E. Dupuy (1), D. Murtagh (3) ) Poster 1
47 Comparison of Brewer and TOMS total ozone at Sondrestrom, Greenland.
(Eriksen Paul ) Poster 1
48 Retrieval and assimilation of Sciamachy ozone columns
(Eskes Henk, Ronald van der A, Ellen Brinksma, Pepijn Veefkind, Johan de Haan, Pieter Valks) Oral 1
49 Atmospheric Long-range Transport and its Impact on the Trace-gas Distribution in the Free Troposphere over Central Europe (ATMOFAST)
(Feldmann H. 1, P. James2, H.-J. Kanter3, H. E. Scheel3, A. Stohl2,4, T. Trickl3) Poster 4
51 How Version 7 and Version 8 TOMS data Compare
(Fleig Albert J. Curt A. Tilmes Charles Wellemeyer) Poster 1
52 Long-range airborne Differential Absorption Lidar observations of stratospheric ozone
(Flentje Herald, Andreas Fix, Gorazd Poberaj) Oral 1
53 Classification of HALOE Data by Meteorological Regime
(Follette Melanie, Robert Hudson, Marcos Andrade) Poster 1
54 IMPLICATIONS OF VERSION 8 TOMS AND SBUV DATA FOR LONG-TERM TREND ANALYSIS
(Frith S.M,R.S. Stolarski, P.K. Bhartia ) Oral 1
55 Study of Atmospheric Ozone and Turbulence From Combined MU Radar and Ozonosonde Measurements in Shigaraki, Japan
(GAVRILOV Nikolai M. (1), FUKAO Shoichro (2), HASHIGUCHI Hiroyuki (2), KITA Kazuyuki (3) SATO Kaoru (4) TOMIKAWA Yoshihiro (4) FUJIWARA Masamoto (5) ) Oral 1
56 Effect of tropospheric ozone on growth, yield and arbuscular mycorrhizal association of wheat in a megacity of Pakistan.
(GHAZALA NASIM & RUKHSANA BAJWA) Poster 1
57 Study of vertical and temporal variability of ozone over Italy, by means of ozone-sounding activity at the S. Pietro Capofiume Station.
(Giovanelli G. (1), D. Bortoli (1,2), I. Kostadinov (1,3), G. Lenzi (1), A. Petritoli (1), F. Ravegnani (1) and G. Trivellone (1)) Poster 1
58 Short-term and long-term variability of stratospheric ozone vertical distribution from systematic lidar ozone measurements in the South of France
(Godin-Beekmann S., T. Song, A. Hauchecorne) Oral 1
59 About sources of quasi-biennial variations in the Northern Hemisphere extratropical atmosphere
(Gruzdev Aleksandr N., Vyacheslav A. Bezverkhny) Poster 1
60 Evaluation and statistical enhancements of a 2-D model for totalcolumn ozone.
(Guillas Serge George C. Tiao Donald J. Wuebbles) Poster 2
61 Stratospheric Ozone profiles and vortex averaged depletion derived from radiometer measurements in Ny-?lesund, Spitsbergen
(Haerle H.1), M.Quack 1),M.Palm 1), S.Golchert 1), N.Buschmann 1), J.Notholt 1), K.K?nzi 1) and O.Schrems 2)) Poster 1
62 The Winter Ozone Minimum over the Subtropical Northwestern Pacific
(HAN Jianyu¹, Koji YAMAZAKI¹ and Masanori NIWANO²) Poster 1
63 Re-evaluation and analysis of the 65-year Tromsø total ozone series
(Hansen Georg (1) Trond Svenøe (2)) Oral 1
64 Recent Advancements and Developments at the WOUDC
(Hare E.W., E.J. Carty and V.E. Fioletov) Poster 1
65 A re-examination of the total ozone record at the WOUDC from the comparison with satellite data
(Hare E.W., V.E. Fioletov, R.D. McPeters and G.J. Labow) Poster 1
66 Stratospheric ozone development as seen by assimilated OSIRIS and GOMOS data covering the year 2003
(Hassinen S. (1), E. Kyrölä (1), A. Seppälä (1), H. Auvinen (1), C. Haley (2), J. Damski (3), L. Backman (3)) Poster 1
67 GOMOS/ENVISAT ozone error budget and ozone variability in the tropical middle atmosphere
(Hauchecorne A., J.L. Bertaux, F. Dalaudier, C. Cot (1), E. Kyrölä, J. Tamminen, V. Sofieva,(2) O. Fanton d'Andon, G. Barrot, A. Mangin (3) D.Fussen (4) ) Poster 1
68 Statistical trend analysis of UMKEHR data at selected northern hemisphere stations
(C. Zerefos(1),(2), P. Zanis(3), E. Kosmidis(4), Tourpali(4)) Poster 1
69 On the Influence of the Tibetan High on the Distribution of Column Ozone in the Southern Hemisphere
(Hitchman Matthew H. Marek J. Rogal) Poster 1
70 The Solar Cycle Variation of Stratospheric Ozone from Satellite Date: Comparisons with Ground-Based Data and Interpretation
(Hood L. (1), B. Soukharev (1),(2), C. Zerefos (3), K. Tourpali (4)) Poster 1
71 Determination of vertical profiles of ozone isotopes in the arctic polar vortex and at mid-latitudes, derived from MIPAS-B2 spectra
(Huck P., H. Oelhaf, G. Wetzel, F. Friedl-Vallon, A. Kleinert, A. Lengel, G. Maucher, and H. Fischer) Poster 1
72 A quantitative estimate of dynamical contributions to ozone mini-hole formation
(Iwao Koki and Toshihiko Hirooka) Poster 1
73 Tropospheric ozone depletion events observed over the frozen Arctic Ocean
(Jacobi Hans-Werner, Mareile Wolff, and Otto Schrems) Poster 1
74 Prediction of total ozone over Delhi using neural network
(Jain Meena, M.K. Tiwari & S.C. Garg) Poster 1
75 Ozone Measurement During Ozone Hole at Maitri, Antarctica
(Jain S. L. , Sachin D. Ghude, Arun Kumar, Ashoka Kumar and B. C. Arya) Poster 1
76 Column Ozone, Water Vapour and AOD Measurements at Very High Altitude Observatory
(Jain S. L. and B. C. Arya) Poster 1
77 Total Ozone at Northern Higher Middle Latitudes, Geomagnetic Storms and Forbush Decreases of Cosmic Rays
(Jan Lastovicka, Peter Krizan) Poster 1
78 Ozone Profiles Measured at South Pole Station During the 2003 Ozone Hole.
(Johnson B. J., S. J. Oltmans, D. J. Hofmann) Poster 1
79 Tools for Browsing and Analysis of Aura and TOMS Data Products
(Johnson James E. Suraiya P. Ahmad) Poster 1
80 Using Cloud Top Pressures Derived from Raman Scattering in the UV for the OMI Total Column Ozone Retrievals
(Joiner J. (1), A.P. Vasilkov (2), P.K. Bhartia (1), and K. Yang (2)) Poster 1
81 25 Year NOAA-TOVS Total Ozone Product by Neural Network Technique - Validation, Comparison and Trend Analysis -
(Kaifel Anton K., Jasmine Kaptur, Martin D. Müller) Poster 1
82 New 8 year NNORSY-GOME Ozone Profile Retrieval Data Set
(Kaifel Anton K., Martin D. Müller, Jasmine Kaptur) Poster 1
83 Comparison of observations and analyses of total ozone contents over Europe
(Keckhut P.1, J. de La No?2, M.-R. DeBacker3, W. D'Anna2, A. Kubicki1, M. Guenneau1, and S. C?sar1 ) Poster 1
84 Operational Atmospheric Chemistry Monitoring in the Post-Envisat Era. First phase of the CAPACITY project: User and Data Requirements
(Kelder, H., A. Goede, M. van Weele, and CAPACITY consortium partners) Poster 1
85 A BREWER-DOBSON-TOMS TOTAL OZONE DATA
(Kirchhoff V.W.J.H., N. Paes Leme, and C.Boian) Poster 1
86 A HIGH ALTITUDE NEW SET OF BREWER TOTAL COLUMN OZONE DATA
(Kirchhoff V.W.J.H.1, N. Paes Leme1, C. Boian1 and F.Zaratti2) Poster 1
87 Intercomparison of SBUV/2 and Dobson/Umkehr Ozone Measurements
(KIREEV S.V., Center for Atmospheric Sciences, Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 United States M.P. MCCORMICK, Center for Atmospheric Sciences, Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 United States L.E. FLYNN, NOAA/NESDIS, 5200 Auth Road, Camp Springs, MD 20746 United States I. PETROPAVLOVSKIKH, NOAA/ARL/SSRB, 325 Broadway, Boulder, CO 80305 United States ) Poster 1
88 Observations of polar stratospheric clouds at Sodankylä, Finland
(Kivi R. (1) , E. Kyrö (1), A. Dörnbrack (2)) Poster 5
89 Stratospheric ozone variability over Sodankylä during 1989-2003
(Kivi R. , E. Kyrö, and T. Turunen) Poster 1
90 WINTER/SPRING 2003/04 MEASUREMENTS OF THE NEW GROUND-BASED MICROWAVE RADIOMETER RAMAS AT SUMMIT, GREENLAND
(Kleindienst Axel, Nicole Buschmann, Sven Golchert, Klaus F. Künzi Institute of Environmental Physics, University of Bremen, Germany; Justus Notholt, Institute of Environmental Physics, University of Bremen, Germany; Jerome de La Noe, Nicola Schneider Observatoire de Bordeaux, University of Bordeaux, France; Helge Jønch-Sørensen, Allan Gross Danish Meteorological Institute, Denmark; Martyn Chipperfield University of Leeds, U.K. ) Poster 1
91 Ozone miniholes and minihighs over Switzerland
(Koch Gisela, Heini Wernli, Cornelia Schwierz, Johannes Staehelin, Thomas Peter) Oral 1
92 Ground-Based Millimeter Wave Observations of Stratospheric Ozone at the Alpine Station Zugspitze in 2003
(Kopp G., G. Hochschild) Poster 1
93 A review on the Brewer-Umkehr Measurements made in Thessaloniki, Greece for the last 13 years
(Kosmidis E., A.F. Bais, C. Meleti, C. T. McElroy, C. S. Zerefos ) Poster 1
94 Comparison and Trends derived from Brewer-Umkehr Measurements made in Thessaloniki, Greece for the last 15 years
(Kosmidis E., P. Zanis, C. S. Zerefos) Poster 1
95 On the recovery of ozone over the NH midlatitudes: Statistical analyses of total ozone measured at Arosa (1948-2002)
(Krzyscin Janusz W.) Poster 1
96 THE BEHAVIOUR OF STRATOSPHERIC OZONE AT HEIGHTS MORE THAN 20 KM THROUGH POLAR WINTERS 1999/2000 AND 2002/2003 ACCORDING TO MICROWAVE DATA AT KOLA PENINSULA
(Kulikov Y.Y., A.A. Krasilnikov, V.G. Ryskin) Poster 1
97 SEASONAL VARIATION OF TOTAL OZONE OVER INDIA : THEORETICAL EXPLANATION
(Kundu Namita, Meena Jain) Poster 1
98 Variation of Ozone chemopause and tropopause height difference with tropospheric temperature
(Kundu Namita1, S.K. Peshin2, and Sachchidanand Singh1) Oral 1
99 Ozone profile climatology from GOMOS
(Kyrola E., J. Tamminen, V. Sofieva, S. Hassinen, P. Verronen (1) J.L. Bertaux, A. Hauchecorne, F. Dalaudier, C. Cot (2) D. F?ssen, F. Vanhellemont (3) O. Fanton d'Andon, G. Barrot, A. Mangin, B. Th?odore, M. Guirlet, F. Etanchaud (4) P. Snoeij, R. Koopman, L. Saavedra (5) ) Poster 1
100 A Comparison of TOMS, SBUV & SBUV/2 Version 8 Total Column Ozone Data with Data from Groundstations
(Labow G.J., R.D. McPeters, P.K. Bhartia) Oral 1

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Those who wish to present extended abstract(s) at the Symposium are requested to submit an Abstract (maximum 250 words) of each proposed extended abstract, latest by 15th of January 2004, using the submission form available at www.QOS2004.gr.

In the submission authors must indicate at least one topic (using the tentative numbers indicated in the scientific programme) that is thought to be most appropriate and to state their preference of oral or poster presentation.

However, the Scientific Programme Committee may change/rearrange submitted extended abstracts to other sessions than author's preference in order to accommodate the overall oral/poster programme sessions.

The Abstracts will be used to review the extended abstract suitability and the appropriate session. Therefore, it is in authors' own interest to prepare the Abstracts with sufficient information for their review by the Scientific Programme Committee.

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