It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature

[halva]

Dr. Hoffman envisions a “Global Weather Control System� (GWC), be put into place: “…governing the atmosphere…� and this end may be gained through examining many possibilities. Two of his examples are listed below:

1) “…Aircraft produce contrails. Contrails are essentially cirrus clouds that influence both the solar and thermal radiation (Peollot el al.1999). Slight variations in the timing, levels, and routes of aircraft would produce perturbations (Murcray 1970).

2) “…Solar Powered Generators in geostationary orbit has been suggested as a low cost energy source…� (Microwaves) to initiate weather modification.

Dr. Hoffman suggests that the first order of priority for the GWC would be to control the path of hurricanes. He also states: “The concept of global weather control raises a host of sociological, ecological, and political issues…a thorough discussion of whether or not, and if so, to what extent and under what circumstances we actually do wish to control the weather?�

Our military is also interested in global control of the weather. In 2004, The Science Channel, for a special television program titled, “Owing the Weather,� conducted an interview with J. Gregory Glenn, a Research Scientist at Elgin Air Force Base in Florida, where “…Air Force weapons researchers and nano particles specialists are conducting weather control experiments…� Also discussed: “Project Popeye:� “…Though they had denied it for more than seven years (until Seymour Hersh of the New York Times broke the story), the U.S. Military had been using weather modification as a weapon in Vietnam and Laos. Starting in 1966, the United States Air Force had made over 2,600 top-secret cloud seeding flights. Codenamed “Project Popeye,� this clandestine operation attempted to turn key enemy transport roads to mud, rendering them impassable…As a result of the uproar over Project Popeye, on the 10th of December 1976, the United Nations passed General Assembly Resolution 3172. It explicitly banned the use of weather modification in warfare…� until now?

Other U.S. hurricane cloud seeding projects have also been classified, until years later, due to the devastating results of these experiments in the United States and other countries. And what are the foreign policy implications, legal issues, liability for crop losses, local political ramifications, liability for inducing droughts, floods, and other disasters, or increasing the intensity of normal weather patterns with regard to inducing man-made climate change in certain areas?

Discovery Channel Best Evidence Program (February 2007) Narrator: “…If chemicals like silver iodide dispensed from aircraft can make it snow in California (Wyoming, Texas, Colorado+), and rain on the wheat fields of Indiana, what is to stop atmospheric scientists from engineering the climate on a global scale?..� (Also note that weather modification companies have a financial investment in lobbying our elected representatives to promote experimental weather modification programs, and scuttle to all attempts at government or public oversight.)

The Discovery program also raised ethical and moral questions. Now it is time for public debate before we engage in more weather geoengineering schemes which have the potential to negatively affect human health, pollute our air and water, and disrupt the micro-climates needed for regional crop production and tree health. Technology is available to modify our weather now and is now being implemented in many states. The question remains: Who is protecting the public interest, our trees, agriculture crop production, and our air and water supplies from being polluted by the chemicals and particulates used in these programs?

California Sky Watch

ADDITIONAL PUBLIC INFORMATION:

1, Professor Emanuel notes (August 7, 2007), that some of the ideas expressed above in the narration were attributed to him in the Discovery Program by mistake. The ideas were expressed in a paper written by: Dr. Ross Hoffman, Atmospheric and Environmental Research in Lexington, MA. Titled: “Controlling the Weather� February 2002
2, New York Times July 17, 2007 Studies Show Hurricanes Improve Coral Reef Health.
3, United States Air Force
4, "Weather As A Force Multiplier"
5, The New York Times July 17, 2007 - Studies show hurricanes can improve coral reef health.
6, NASA October 2005 Newsletter, Page 8 states: "…Clouds are the largest variable controlling Earth's atmospheric temperature and climate. Any change in global cloud cover may contribute to long-term changes in Earth's climate. Contrails, especially persistent contrails, represent a human-caused increase in the Earth's cloudiness, and are likely to be affecting climate and ultimately our natural resources…" NASA October 2005 [Read] and [Read]
7, NOAA Project StormFury 20-Year History:
8, Popular Science Magazine, November 2005, Can We Stop Storms?
9, Summary of one Section of the Discover August 5, 2007, Program Presentation regarding Russian Cloud Seeding and a nuclear plant meltdown which shows the dangers of building more nuclear power plants (also note the earthquake in Japan that damaged their nuclear power plants and caused the release of radioactive air and water in):

A Russian Weather Control Operation in 1986, from the past is described in this Discovery program. When the nuclear power plant in Chernobyl suffered a meltdown it created radioactive rain clouds that were seeded by the Russians in order to prevent the radioactive rain from falling in highly populated areas in the Soviet Union. This event is described in some detail along with the health effects suffered by those exposed to the radioactive rain from this cloud seeding operation.
10, Websites for more information: [Read] and [Read]
11, U.S. Codes
12, NASA - 2007 Search Carbon Black Dust
13, EPA - 2007 Search Carbon Black Dust Health Effects of Particulate Matter and Associated Air Pollutants
14, EPA Effect of Ammonium Bisulfate and Carbon Black Particles Inhaled Alone and in Combination on Airway Reactivity
15, EPA Search - 2007 - Carbon Black Dust Human Health Implications
16, International Carbon Black Association 2007 Information [Read] and [Read] and [Read]

[siegmund]

Soil Tests from Portland coast

From D.W.
Date: 7/25/2007 12:12:38 AM
Subject: Oregon lab tests received

I wanted to pass on the results from 5 soil samples pulled from some of what would have appeared to be the most unspoiled areas left in our country. The wilderness areas along the Oregon coast. The results are beyond belief. (Testing for aluminum)


Reedsport: 19100 mg/kg (ppm)

Lincoln City: 14700 mg/kg (ppm)

Powers: 18600 mg/kg (ppm)

Agness : 20200 mg/kg (ppm)

Brookings 38000 mg/kg (ppm)


These results are literally off the charts. One thing to keep in mind, Soils from the top layer of a dried up puddle will of course have a concentrated amount of material from rain wash, etc. Even so, these amounts are far beyond anything I thought possible. They are far worse than any of the tests taken in Shasta county.

While surveying the Oregon coast, trails ("chemtrails") could be observed as far out over the ocean as the eye could see. Some satellite photos recently reviewed show them extending out for hundreds of miles in some cases. They run parallel to the coast in what would seem an attempt to pick up and float the marine moister further inland and create a cooling effect. Here in Shasta county, for the last four to six weeks, there has been a fairly consistent costal breeze straight from the west. I have not observed this in any of the previous six years I have lived here. I have spoken to several long time residents that also don't recall this scenario.

I have to hope that the majority of the individuals that are part of this immense project, must not know or comprehend the irreparable damage they are doing. Those at the top of course don't care. Nor do their corporate conspirators, Alcoa, Boeing, and GE (who make the jet engines being used on the hundreds of new Boeing tankers currently being built for the Air Force, adding to its current level of about one thousand.)

It is up to all of us, absolutely all of us, to get the word out by whatever peaceful means we can muster. We are working on getting cheap copies of the best dvd on the subject that is extremely
compelling. Copies should be about 50 cents each. With this, a copy of the patent for the spray mix, and an article or two, many could be made aware. Everyone that cares about this most pressing issue should get, and have these items ready to hand out whenever possible.

From: D.M.

Results are coming in from Northern California which i should have in hand soon that show 375000 parts aluminum and barium. That is off the charts as well, These results are consistent with what we suspect from various aerial operations involving persistent contrails.


From: Tricia Knoll
Public Information Officer
Portland Water Bureau

One resource is to review the water quality report that is posted online at http://www.portlandonline.com/water/index.cfm?c=29814

Anything not in the report was not detected. However, I have also forwarded your comment to our regulatory compliance group and they will also comment back to you about the specific elements you are concerned about. Usually we respond to emails same day, but I was out of the office yesterday.


*TrackIT Item: 167502*
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Category:* Comments to the Portland Water Bureau
*Date Created:* 06/27/2007 8:02 PM
*Date Received:* 06/27/2007
*Contact:* None
*Contact Type:* Website
*Your name:* david morrison
*Comment:* Hello, I would like to have the results of water testing for various elements: aluminum, barium, thorium, *Please add me to the Portland Water Bureau's mailing list for
information about:* All topics listed below
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seems that some chemmies got crazy here.

It's absolute nonsense (bullshit) to analyze soil samples for aluminium and to attribute the results which are "beyond belief" to "chemtrail" activities.

With this "chain of evidence" the chemmies finally made a fool of themselves.

Aluminium is the most abundant metal in the earth's crust (82.000 mg/kg).
So it is more than natural to find some ten thousand ppm in Portland soil samples.

That nothing is found in Portland's drinking water is absolutely impossible for chemmies.
So Portland Water Bureau must be part of a worldwide conspiracy.

The whole issue reminds me of Jim Phelps, the inventor of chemtrails,
who was not able to distinguish soluble Al compounds from unsoluble ones,
g-Al2O3 from a-Al2O3 or even bauxite from alumina.

Wayne, with this copy & paste article from David Morrison (D.M. not D.W.) you lost the very last bit of scientific reputation.

Not to mention the 375.000 parts of aluminium and barium (37,5%!) from Northern California.
Never laughed so much. Thanks.

siegmund

[halva]

If Siegmund, whom I have ignore-listed, is saying something to which I should pay attention, could someone I do not have ignore-listed please let me know,

[Lou]

Seems that some chemmies got crazy here.

It's absolute nonsense (bullshit) to analyze soil samples for aluminium and to attribute the results which are "beyond belief" to "chemtrail" activities.

With this "chain of evidence" the chemmies finally made a fool of themselves.

Aluminium is the most abundant metal in the earth's crust (82.000 mg/kg).
So it is more than natural to find some ten thousand ppm in Portland soil samples.

That nothing is found in Portland's drinking water is absolutely impossible for chemmies.
So Portland Water Bureau must be part of a worldwide conspiracy.

The whole issue reminds me of Jim Phelps, the inventor of chemtrails,
who was not able to distinguish soluble Al compounds from unsoluble ones,
g-Al2O3 from a-Al2O3 or even bauxite from alumina.

Wayne, with this copy & paste article from David Morrison (D.M. not D.W.) you lost the very last bit of scientific reputation.

Not to mention the 375.000 parts of aluminium and barium (37,5%!) from Northern California.
Never laughed so much. Thanks.

siegmund

If everyone where as closed minded as this "Siegmund" who reminds me of "Jay the Onion Farmer Reynolds" we would all still be living in caves and wondering what causes fire.

I agree that Aluminum is the most abundant of all elements found in the earth's soil, it is quite common and readings above 90.000 PPM are considered quite high and the USDA recommends the addition of calcium to soils with Aluminum readings this high so it acts as a buffer.

Raising the acidity levels of soils with high content of Aluminum is also recommended as the higher pH helps break down the Aluminum.

It's one thing to say that "Yes" there is always trace amounts of Aluminum in the soil and quite another to scoff at higher values of it in the soil and write it off as purely a natural occurrence, no researcher or scientist would do such a thing but rather they would look at the data and look for the causation for the higher increases in an investigative manner.

If a PPM baseline for trace Aluminum has already been established, which in most geographical areas, especially the US it has, then samples showing higher than the normal readings from that baseline data reveal two important things.

The first being that the PPM has taken a jump from normal readings for some reason, usually pollution of some sort.

Second, if there is a departure from say 87.000.00 PPM up to 250.000.00 PPM then this is far more than a random flux in the normal trace amounts of the Aluminum and causation is unlikely to be due to industrial pollution washout from precipitation and more likely to be causation from excessive amounts of aluminum being deposited as dry fallout.

It would be interesting to do some soil sampling and analyze the layers in a one foot deep core sample for PPM of Aluminum, that would tell the researcher right away if the Aluminum is just a high reading trace or a high increase due to a direct dry fall of material.

I might add that readings for Aluminum in water samples can be deceiving, Aluminum being a metal, it tends to sink to the bottom quickly and imbed itself into the sediments, most water reservoirs in the US are tested but it is only the water that the results from are publicly available, most states do not release test results of sedimentation of these reservoirs, if they do them at all.

Keeping an eye on the levels of heavy metals in soil and water is just good thinking, people like to know what's in the food they consume, the water they drink_even if this "Siegmund" character does not think there is anything to it, I'd rather know than not_how about you?

( Your welcome Wayne .) :D

[halva]

Since so much use is made of the argument that X "reminds" one of Y, all that I have to say that discussion "reminds me" that I have got other things to do. Bye for now.

[siegmund]

Wayne, your ignore attitudes remind me of a Kindergarten playing Three Monkeys game.
BTW, Greek captains always ignored when a ship sank.

Lou, like Brian, Chris, Clifford, David, Jim, Linda, Will et al.
not a single chemmie could get to the point since 1999. Why?

The soluble Al3+ is the crucial point and nothing else.
Please do your homework first and then blame.

The same crux with barium.
None of above laities got it for more than 8 years that it is possible to distinguish geogenic from anthropogenic Ba.

Sleep well.

siegmund

PS: Please send me a PM if you are interested in verified results from drinking water taken at Waldkraiburg, Bavaria (soluble Al, Ba, Sr content) and let us bury the chemtrail hoax.

[halva]

German debunkers are referred to our elected representative. No other dialogue required.

E-2455/07

SCHRIFTLICHE ANFRAGE von Erik Meijer (GUE/NGL) an die Kommission

Betrifft: Wachsende Aufmerksamkeit für Flugzeugspuren, die nicht mehr nur Wasser enthalten, sondern möglicherweise durch Barium, Aluminium und Eisen langanhaltende milchige Schleier verursachen Antwort(en)

1. Ist der Kommission bekannt, dass sich Bürger in den USA und in Kanada seit 1999 über in zunehmendem Maße in der Luft vorhandene Flugzeugspuren eines neuen Typs beklagen, der bisweilen stundenlang in der Luft hängen bleibt und sich viel breiter ausfächert, wodurch milchige Schleier entstehen, die in diesen Ländern als „aerial obscuration“ bezeichnet werden, und dass dieser neue Typ vor allem dadurch auffällt, dass er stark von den seit dem Aufkommen von Düsentriebwerken als „contrails“ (Kondensstreifen) bekannten pinseldünnen kurzen weißen Linien in der Luft abweicht, die maximal 20 Minuten sichtbar bleiben und nur entstehen können, wenn Wasserdampf infolge niedriger Temperaturen und einer hohen Luftfeuchtigkeit auf Staubteilchen kondensiert?

2. Ist der Kommission bekannt, dass Nachforschungen durch die genannten Beschwerdeführer, Beobachtungen von Piloten und Mitteilungen staatlicher Instanzen immer mehr die Vermutung nahelegen, dass es sich in diesem Fall um die Einleitung kleiner Teilchen, bestehend aus Barium, Aluminium und Eisen, durch das Flugzeug in die trockene Luft handelt, was in der amerikanischen Diskussion inzwischen als „chemtrails“ bezeichnet wird?

3. Ist der Kommission angesichts der Tatsache, dass die „chemtrails“ im Gegensatz zu den „contrails“ kein unvermeidliches Nebenprodukt des heutigen Flugverkehrs sind, bekannt, was mit der künstlichen Verbreitung dieser von der Erde stammenden Substanzen in der Erdatmospähre bezweckt wird? Hat dies positive Auswirkungen auf die Erzeugung von Regen, auf die Telekommunikation oder auf die Bekämpfung der Erderwärmung?

4. In welchem Maße werden „aerial obscuration“ und „chemtrails“ nun auch im Luftraum über Europa angewendet, da inzwischen auch hier viele Menschen deren immer häufigeres Auftreten feststellen und beunruhigt sind, da über dieses Phänomen noch wenig bekannt ist und die Bevölkerung nicht informiert wird? Wer ergreift die Initiative zum Versprühen dieser Teilchen und wie wird dies finanziert?

5. Sind der Kommission neben den beabsichtigten positiven Folgen der Einleitung von Substanzen in die Luft auch mögliche Nachteile für die Umwelt, die Volksgesundheit, den Flugverkehr oder den Fernsehempfang bekannt?

6. Wie wird verhindert, dass einzelne europäische Staaten oder Unternehmen einseitig Maßnahmen ergreifen, deren grenzüberschreitende Folgen von anderen Staaten oder Bürgerorganisationen als nachteilig beurteilt werden können? Findet bereits eine entsprechende Koordinierung statt? Spielt die EU dabei eine Rolle oder rechnet die Kommission damit, dass sie künftig eine Rolle spielt, und von welchen Zielsetzungen lässt sie sich dabei leiten?

[halva]

If Siegmund wants to make Dimas' bullshit answer available to a German audience he will have to translate it himself, since it has been provided only in English.

[halva]

Lou do you oppose the idea of marginalizing debunkers rather than debating with them?

[halva]

Americans have a habit of assigning superior status to public officials who are elected over public officials who are not elected.

European parliamentarians are elected. European commissioners are appointed.

[halva]

The new version of "How Do You Like Your Skies...Natural or Man-Made?" is up on You Tube, with new pictures, new information, and narration. This is the video outline that will be shown at the U.N. conference this September 5-7, when Rosalind Peterson is speaking. This 10 minute narrated music video shows what is happening in our skies and our atmosphere on a daily basis.

YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWcBXwwPBWI

[halva]

This new video blurs, or rather ignores, distinctions between aircraft emissions in general and deliberate use of contrails for geoengineering, weather modification and other purposes.

In my view it is not expedient to do this in the EU in the context of a showdown between a European parliamentarian and a European Commissioner.

If Footsoldier has constructive thinking, as opposed to snobbish non-thinking, to contribute to this subject, let her do so.

[Lou]

Wayne, your ignore attitudes remind me of a Kindergarten playing Three Monkeys game.
BTW, Greek captains always ignored when a ship sank.

Lou, like Brian, Chris, Clifford, David, Jim, Linda, Will et al.
not a single chemmie could get to the point since 1999. Why?

The soluble Al3+ is the crucial point and nothing else.
Please do your homework first and then blame.

The same crux with barium.
None of above laities got it for more than 8 years that it is possible to distinguish geogenic from anthropogenic Ba.

Sleep well.

siegmund

PS: Please send me a PM if you are interested in verified results from drinking water taken at Waldkraiburg, Bavaria (soluble Al, Ba, Sr content) and let us bury the chemtrail hoax.

Ah,... 'siegmund', certainly far from "Freud",.... you really do seem to be just another generic version of 'Jay Reynolds',if indeed not the 'Jay' one himself,... echoing his "HOAX" blathering like a well trained parrot, I can well understand why 'Wayne' has you ignore listed.

I'm not going to spend an hour let alone days arguing with a one dimensional thinker like yourself over the merit of the Chemtrail spraying issue, the reality of it is blatantly obvious to millions of people, save for the very few like you and the 'John Boyd Reynolds, Jr." ilk.

You feel free to keep your narrow-minded thoughts on the subject and share them with those who might care, I will continue to question those strange lines in the sky that form in low humidity and temperatures that normal contrails just can not and should not form, I will continue my discussions with those who have far more open minds that you obviously do. :rolleyes:

You and 'Jay' have fun now_Ta,Ta,... "Siegmund - Fraud". :D

[halva]

I don't think that Siegmund is Jay Reynolds, but if you agree with me that the best way to approach him is to ignore him rather than discuss anything with him, one way to do that is, e.g. to talk with me about him rather than talking to him directly.

[Lou]

I don't think that Siegmund is Jay Reynolds, but if you agree with me that the best way to approach him is to ignore him rather than discuss anything with him, one way to do that is, e.g. to talk with me about him rather than talking to him directly.

I was just making a statement Wayne, not engaging 'Siggie' in any real form of discussion on the subject of spraying, we all know what side of that issue he is on and how much of a waste of time it would be in rationalizing something of which he is so closed minded about_ergo, I think it best if 'Siggie' was left out of our discussions, It's about Chemtrails / Weather Modification / HAARP / Climate change / Anthropological effects of same_it's not about or should it be about 'Siggie', 'Reynolds' or there ilk.

Moving on now. :D

[halva]

Yes. I agree. Leave him out. Leave all of them out.

If we want to talk about these people, at least talk about some of the central figures, not internet nobodies.

For example here are some quotations from correspondence of Ken Caldeira with the Greek journalist Aliki Stefanou:

Note the way Caldeira assumes that he can and should just impose the American Republican vs Democrat dichotomy when he talks to a European journalist. In Europe the divide over chemtrails is between the European Commission and the European parliament and follows a different logic to that of the competition between the two big American political parties..


From: Ken Caldeira
Date: 11 Aug 2007 5:31 μμ
Subject: Re: video
To: Aliki Stefanou (re the new Rosalind Peterson video)

If you will notice, almost all of these persistent contrails are made in atmospheric conditions that are right on the edge of natural cloud formation (a bit hazy). So, the contrails tip the balance in favor of clouds and persistent contrails / clouds form.

There is enough real and worrisome things that are going on, so there is no need to get caught up in conspiracy theories about climate engineering.

NOBODY IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION CARES ABOUT CLIMATE.

If they will make a secret conspiracy it will be to give themselves money, hide a crime, torture people, spy on people, start a secret war, or something like that.

To imagine that they will take the time and effort to make a conspiracy about climate just gives them way too much credit.

Please direct your energies to something more useful.

2007/8/7, Ken Caldeira

We are interfering dangerously with the climate system.

Geoengineering is like a poorly tested parachute.

If we are in a plane and it is crashing, it is nice to have a parachute even if it is poorly tested. We will not jump out of the window with a poorly tested parachute just for fun, but if the risk of crashing is even worse, we will give it a try.

So, do I approve of poorly tested parachutes? The main thing is to make sure our plane does not crash and burn. (This means doing what we can to eliminate greenhouse gas emissions.) But if we do crash and burn, it might be nice to have a parachute that has at least been tested a little bit.

If we are lucky, we might get off with a few broken bones instead of being splattered in a plane crash.

Bush might be for geoengineering if he took the climate problem seriously enough, but I think he is more concerned with his political survival than our environmental survival.

[halva]

The American system of dominating the world through global projection of the domestic 'Republican vs Democrat dispute has reached its "sell by" date.

The predecessor to the American Republican party, the Whigs, collapsed like a house of cards at the time of the American Civil War and a new two-party system emerged. Something like that is going to happen now also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whig_Party_%28United_States%29#Party_structure

I think the European Commission vs European Parliament conflict that I have been gesturing at foreshadows the logic of the new party system that will prevail in the US also. The Democrats will be the "right wing" party and a new opposition party will come into existence made up of dissident Republicans, Libertarians, Greens or whatever. I don't know. Socialists and communists will probably go to both of these parties. People who know more about the US than I do can fill in the details.

[siegmund]

I was just making a statement Wayne, not engaging 'Siggie' in any real form of discussion on the subject of spraying, we all know what side of that issue he is on and how much of a waste of time it would be in rationalizing something of which he is so closed minded about_ergo, I think it best if 'Siggie' was left out of our discussions, It's about Chemtrails / Weather Modification / HAARP / Climate change / Anthropological effects of same_it's not about or should it be about 'Siggie', 'Reynolds' or there ilk.


Lou, you again remind me of Kindergarten, where name distortion is very common among babies.

Nevertheless be happy and tell your boss that I will leave your Kindergarten Chemtrail Church for Old Europe.
So it's not necessary to banish an internet nobody.

BTW, has Wayne finally become a self-made Prefect of CDF worldwide?
For nonbelievers: Congregation for the Doctrine of the chemtrail Faith.

Hasta la vista, babies

[halva]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFb2U8C0gBY

[halva]

Diminished solar charge capacities due to persistent con trails
Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:09 pm (PST)

I relocated to Northern California when the forest that surrounded me in the Hualipi Mountains of Arizona, began to die. I started doing research on climate with the 95' manual on climate change from the IPCC. Northern California seemed a much better bet based on the data in that manual. After moving to Shasta County in 2001 and constructing our large off-grid home on the east side of lake Shasta, I began to take notice of the occasional long and very lingering trails left behind aircraft. This would occur only on an occasional basis and there seemed no recognizable difference in atmospheric conditions or humidities. Days of clear blue skies, with virtually no sign whatsoever of aircraft, would be followed by days of parallel stripes from horizon to horizon that would gradually spread out during the span of hours till the whole sky became hazy. This is a condition that has a substantial negative effect on the function of a solar voltaic panels ability to produce power. I have a background in solar power having worked on the construction one of the first commercial solar electric facilities in the country in the early 80's. This power plant is in Dagget California. I have also had extensive education in the electrical industry. I hold a journeyman's card in the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Union and have held contractors licenses in California and Arizona. My 'off grid' residence in Shasta County located on 2000 acres of wilderness on the east side of Lake Shasta was the cover article on the nations largest renewable energy magazine.

During our first two winters here, there was considerable difficulty maintaining adequate battery charges due to the lengthy storms. This was further worsened by the long aircraft trails that would cover the skies during the occasional breaks in the weather fronts. These trails alone would at times drop my charging potential to less than half. The winter drop in power production due to the aerosol spraying was and is more substantial as the thickness of the trails seemed to be enhanced due to the lower temperatures and higher humidity. Even so, there were occasional days with exactly the same conditions mentioned above that had no trails whatsoever. Only the sometimes seen tiny short lived trail that quickly disappeared. The sharply contrasting observations made clear to me that there was a profound difference in the aircraft activities from one day to the next. I began to look into the issue and was shocked to discover the quantity of US patents that described exactly the sort of solar obscuration that was blocking so much of my systems ability to produce power. I was also concerned to see some of the primary elements called for in these patents. My difficulties getting adequate power in the winter months continued. As far as the summer months go, there were difficulties there also.

The spraying continued in the other seasons, especially spring and fall. Its appearance was less thick but more complete in its coverage of the skies above. My loss of solar uptake was in the 20 to 30% range. Still more than enough to hamper severely my potential to pump adequate water from my well for dryer season needs. I also began to take notice of surprising accumulations of dust on my panels. This also diminishes charging potential. Knowing the ingredients mentioned in the patents, I decided to take a few dust samples to a lab in our area that performs all of the States testing in the region. This was to be the beginning of a chain of alarming data and tests. The dust was full of aluminum and barium. I live on the top of the highest forested mountaintop in the immediate area. There are no mines or potential areas of contamination within many miles of my location. There was only one plausible origin for this dust that I could come up with. Acting on this conclusion, I tested the final snow storm of the 07' season, as well as the final four rainstorms, for aluminum and barium content in the water. All tests showed significant quantities of these metals. I checked with a hydro-geologist I know about this and he assured me that unless I lived next to an Alcoa factory, there is now way I should have these metals in my rain in any quantity. I tested my rubber lined pond for an accumulation for the two years it has been installed. The reading was off the scale at 375000 ug/l. The testing has continued, now about two dozen by many different residents throughout the county, and the results continue to worsen.

The bottom line is this. I have been unable at many times during the year to produce adequate solar output due to the trails alone. There is no consistency to these periods of spraying whatsoever nor is there any logical explanation, ( other than patent #5,003,186, and other patents consistent in nature). I can find no other explanations for these inconsistencies based on weather conditions or humidities. Further, on any given day that the spraying occurs, and they manage to cover part or all of the sky to some degree, it will be entirely clear by the later evening hours. Never a single trail is visible over our area by 10 or 11 pm, no matter how many dozens of them there were during the daylight hours when the solar clarity is so needed.

The summary is this, my solar output has gone from just over 30kw on an otherwise clear winter day, to an output as low as 18 or 19 kw. My summer output has gone from just over 40 kw on average, to averages in the low 30 kw range. Again, both these readings are on days when the only obstruction in the sky is the expanding and lingering tails from a greatly increased number of aircraft on these days. There are random days and periods during all seasons when there are no trails at all and solar uptake is normal. These clear periods seem to be fewer now than only two years ago, and farther between. I have had to install a hydro electric unit and three wind turbines to make up for the lost solar power that seems to be continuing to wane as the spraying increases. I can only hope that some sort of investigation is commenced that will expose the true impact of this apparent program.

D.W.
Shasta County Ca.

[halva]

If the internet nobody and creep Siegmund is still lurking, may he note that the above text was not written by David Morrison. I am addressing this remark to Lou..

[halva]

http://www.un.org/dpi/ngosection/conference/RosalindPeterson.htm

[halva]

Summer of Resistance in Iceland - an overview
Defending the wild in the land of fire and ice
http://www.groenfront.nl/english/

[Nederlandse Samenvatting] This year Iceland has seen it's third summer of direct action against heavy industry and large dams. In a much disputed master-plan, all the glacial rivers and geothermal potential of the largest wilderness of Europe would be harnessed for aluminium production. Activists from around the world gathered to protect Europe's largest remaining wilderness and oppose aluminium corporations.
Icelanders were joined by activists from Africa, South and North America and Europe for an international conference 'Global consequences of heavy industry and large dams' organized by Saving Iceland. "Progress is painted by some as huge projects, large scale development. In all our countries, these have become disasters, socially, ecologically and economically. Progress is a plenitude of small solutions. We should let a thousand flowers bloom," states a declaration from the conference, formulated by consensus by participants.
[Meer | More]
Sat 04-08 12:27 - Non-Dutch (English); Thema's (IJsland; Globalisering; Grote dammen; Klimaat / Climate; Regenwoud; Kernenergie/wapens) - No comments

[jayreynolds]

http://newyorkskywatch.com/2007/08/01/skywatch-radio-august-1-2007/

Every scientist I spoke with said they didn’t know about the global aerosol program or repeated the mantra, the government can’t keep a secret. Is this compartmentalization or lies or both?

No, it's just as I told you people many times before, you are simply deluded and have fallen for a hoax.

The scientists you spoke to were telling you the truth, get over it.

[jayreynolds]

Seems that some chemmies got crazy here.

It's absolute nonsense (bullshit) to analyze soil samples for aluminium and to attribute the results which are "beyond belief" to "chemtrail" activities.

With this "chain of evidence" the chemmies finally made a fool of themselves.

Aluminium is the most abundant metal in the earth's crust (82.000 mg/kg).
So it is more than natural to find some ten thousand ppm in Portland soil samples.

That nothing is found in Portland's drinking water is absolutely impossible for chemmies.
So Portland Water Bureau must be part of a worldwide conspiracy.

The whole issue reminds me of Jim Phelps, the inventor of chemtrails,
who was not able to distinguish soluble Al compounds from unsoluble ones,
g-Al2O3 from a-Al2O3 or even bauxite from alumina.

Wayne, with this copy & paste article from David Morrison (D.M. not D.W.) you lost the very last bit of scientific reputation.

Not to mention the 375.000 parts of aluminium and barium (37,5%!) from Northern California.
Never laughed so much. Thanks.

siegmund

We wholeheartedly agree on the humor in this case, Siegmund.
These People haven't a clue what they are saying, and the more they say the more they reveal that fact.

I see Wayne& co have gotten a paternalistic response over there in Yerp. Polite but to the point , the Yerpeen Union said, "You have presented no evidence for 'chemtrails'".

Well, I told Wayne that would be his problem all along, yet he insisted he could make headway against a Tsunami of truth in a rowboat lacking a paddle.

Yes, Greek Captains always refused to acknowledge a sinking ship, even as the water rose around their knees..................!

[halva]

The European Commission is a non-elected and undemocratic institution. European parliamentarians have a mandate which European Commissioners do not.

[jayreynolds]

This new video blurs, or rather ignores, distinctions between aircraft emissions in general and deliberate use of contrails for geoengineering, weather modification and other purposes.

Yes, Wayne, Rosalind is of no use whatsoever to you.

The bottom line here is that Rosalind is just one step away from saying "Chemtrails", but is too dishonest to say what she really means.

Now I know that dishonesty has never held you back personally, and your people are somewhat able to overlook each other's defective moral compasses, but you must remember that if Rosalind is willing to lie and cover up her true beliefs in a public manner such as this, what else is she willing to lie about?

And who else is she willing to lie to?

Think about it, Wayne.

Rosalind is pure poison in the end for the hoax. She will eventually align with footsoldier's camp and be of no use to you.

Write it down and look at it in later days, as you have seen everything I predicted for you people has come true.

Ha!

[halva]

I am in a better position than you with "footsoldier's camp". If you try to fight me on that terrain you will lose.

[jayreynolds]

I am in a better position than you with "footsoldier's camp". If you try to fight me on that terrain you will lose.
It doesn't matter.
Those people are of no help to you.

[halva]

I am glad that you are recognizing your limits. Get used to the idea that they are going to grow steadily narrower.

[jayreynolds]

[b]Why are forests catching fire so easily?
]

According to the news reports, Karen, arsonists are the prime suspects:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7d99fd08-54c4-11dc-890c-0000779fd2ac.html

Then again, with fires a key element is how you respond to them quickly to minimize the
possibility of a few acres fire becomig a major conflagration

In the US, though we have many even more massive fires, we don't have such loss of life as in the Greek fires. You should be ashamed of your country's lack of preparedness and your own countrymen's foibles when faced by such a challenge.

Lastly, the worst thing Greeks should do is to blame their problems on a hoax like "chemtrails".
Sad but true, the Greek experience of today is pervaded by ubiquitous rumors of anti-semitic conspiracy theories, reliance on "evil eye" trinkets as a talisman for 'protection', and as a last resort, Monks praying with icons asthe flames approached.

For a closer look:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118816586120409172.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Olympic Torching
By COSTAS SYNOLAKIS
August 27, 2007

The catastrophic forest fires raging in Greece, reportedly covering close to one-quarter of its land territory, have once again brought into focus the need for preparedness for natural disasters.


Overmatched: Firefighters on Mount Penteli, north of Athens, August 2007
More than 50 people have been killed by the current fires. Many burned in their cars as they were trying to flee from their villages. Greece has declared a state of emergency in all its provinces. France, Germany, Serbia, Italy, the U.S. and Russia have sent or are sending firefighters and equipment. One of the fires threatens Olympia, where all Olympic Games of antiquity were held.

Greece is paying the price for its severe lack of emergency preparedness. All of the country's forests are in mountainous areas, yet there are very few fire roads for rapid access. There are no constant head tanks at mountain tops, tanks that store water so that there is enough pressure and capacity for firefighting. By some accounts Greece has only 1% of the minimum number of fire hydrants in its countryside. Entire islands, such as Meganisi, located between Lefkas and Kefalonia, have no firefighters, trucks or hydrants. Even in Athens, fire trucks with ladders do not fit most streets of the modern city, a problem exasperated by uncontrolled development and illegal parking.

Greece has invested heavily in firefighting aircraft. Yet watching television scenes of helicopters dropping water onto fires with fronts that are 20 kilometers long, one invariably thinks of the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dike. Practically everywhere fires rage, TV news showed agonized residents desperately pleading for fire trucks as they tried to control the blazes by carrying water with tractors and throwing buckets of water on flames three to four times their size. In one of the most moving image sequences, monks from a monastery near the most beautiful pine forest of Athens were seen kneeling in prayer before the flames, clutching holy icons they had carried to safety from the inferno.

What Greece has not invested in is emergency preparedness -- in advanced planning with extreme scenario exercises both in IT systems and in the field. Aircraft are no substitute for ground forces and old-fashioned hydrants. Once a fire is out of control, it takes Olympian efforts from the air to quench it. Firefighting aircraft carry water; they cannot evacuate hundreds of people from so many geographically diverse locations. The assistance of army helicopters should have been sought earlier; several lives might have been saved. There has been no effective coordination, as many emergency managers at all levels are not professionals but political appointees with party credentials or family connections.

Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis has wondered aloud whether all these simultaneous fires are an accident and has promised to identify any arsonists who set or worsened the blazes. Even if some of the fires are due to arson, though, the government needs to face up to its poor response to the disaster and plan better for future crises.

Greece would be wise to look what its other European partners and the U.S. are doing. A proportion of emergency relief spending in any particular province -- roughly 5% to 10% -- should be budgeted for additional local emergency preparedness. Planning needs to be local, not coordinated by bureaucrats in Athens who are hardly familiar with local conditions and needs. Evacuation plans should be drawn for every settlement for a range of disasters. Fire roads need to be built and maintained and water storage tanks and hydrants should be installed in every mountainous area prone to large fires. Power lines should be buried, as they not only trigger fires but incredibly complicate Greece's practice of firefighting by air. Spending more in subsidies per year to bolster failing national industries than on emergency preparedness is unacceptable.

The Greeks need to realize that the defense of their homeland is no longer limited to its borders, but includes every forest, river, lake, wetland and beach threatened by natural disasters. It is time for Greeks to stop planning their infrastructure based on diminishing European handouts and the associated corruption, and instead develop their own talent, industry, science and engineering. Meritocracy in emergency planning and management is a good first step.

Mr. Synolakis is a professor of natural hazards at the Technical University of Crete and director of the Tsunami Research Center at the University of Southern California.

[jayreynolds]

Wow, you chemmies sure convinced lots of people here:

http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2007/08/22/opinion/letters/24-chemical.txt

Ha!

[halva]

First off, well done to everyone who participated in the Climate Camp!
Together we created a low-impact community of over 1000 people who made
decisions democratically together, ran over 80 workshops, did at least 17
actions against climate criminals, were reported in the media globally..
oh, and let's not forget that, after BAA tried to get an injunction
banning us from going anywhere near their offices, we camped in their
parking lot and stopped work for the day!!

We hope everyone involved in the camp is finding time to relax and reflect
and pat themselves on the back. But this is just a reminder that there
will be debriefing meetings up and down the country in the next few weeks
and months. These are:

Manchester - Public Meeting
The Camp for Climate Action: What happened? What happens next?
Friday 7 September - 7 for 7.30pm sharp - Friends Meeting House - 6 Mount St
(behind Central Library)

London - Saturday 8th September 2pm at The Upper Room, 8 Greenland Street,
NW1 - 1 min from Camden Town tube, contact 07814061324.

Leeds- 16th September - all day at the Common Place 23-25 Wharf Street LS2
7EQ (www.thecommonplace.org.uk).

If your group isn't listed above please remember to arrange your own local
debrief meetings. When the details are set send them to
website@climatecamp.org.uk so they can be advertised on the website.

At the July Gathering we agreed that we wanted to have a national
gathering in October, but so far no group has taken this on yet! Please
consider whether your group might be able to take this on.

A few other dates you may want to put in your diary:

NoBorders Camp at Gatwick Airport 19-24 September www.noborders.org.uk

Rising Tide Day of Action against the Royal Bank of Scotland October 15.
RBS 'specialise' in funding oil and gas projects, and they are major
funders of the LNG pipeline in Wales.

December 8 National climate protest, London.

The Climate Camp won't stop climate change... but it is part of a growing
action movement that can! To help you get your head around all of the
actions that happened over the week find a summery bellow.

The 24 hours of direct action against climate change which began on Sunday
19th August at noon has culminated in a flurry of direct actions
throughout England. As previously stated, none of the actions were
intended to disrupt passengers, but instead, targeted the corporations who
profit from climate chaos. Meanwhile, the mass siege of BAA national
headquarters has forced its closure for the day. During the week there
have been over a dozen actions, covering a broad range of issues.
Find below details of all the actions throughout the week...

Sunday the 19th and Monday the 20th August

Carbon offset companies were occupied by protesters dressed as red
herrings. Fifteen have occupied the offices of Climate Care in Oxford. Ten
have leafleted the offices of the Carbon Neutral Company in London. Carbon
offsetting is a scheme allowing companies and consumers to pay in order to
supposedly neutralize their carbon emissions. 'Carbon offsets are
ineffective, based on dubious science and lead people to believe they are
helping when they are not - the concept and the practice are a con,' said
Sophie Nathan, who is taking part in the Carbon Neutral Company action.

Five protesters are in a concrete lock-on outside Sizewell A and B nuclear
power stations. Their banner declares, 'Nuclear power is not the answer to
climate chaos.' Twelve protesters have superglued themselves to the
entrance at BP headquarters. They are highlighting BPs essential role in
the aviation industry. Protester Stanley Owen said 'We cannot sustain
infinite growth on a planet with finite resources.' Eighteen protesters
occupied the office of the owners of Leeds airport, Bridgepoint Capital,
on Warwick Street in London.

In Harmondsworth village a group of 500, consisting of locals as well as
climate camp participants, gathered to listen John McDonnell Labour MP for
Hayes and Harlington. He told the government that the third runway will
not be built:

'Even with the latest, more efficient aircraft, the climate change
imperative demands that air travel growth be severely curtailed. The
government can no longer have its cake and eat it. If it's genuinely
serious about climate change it must show meaningful leadership to rein in
aviation expansion.'

Protesters wore copies of the Tyndall Report on their hands during the
mass action, carrying a banner reading, 'We are armed....only with
peer-reviewed science'.

Late on Sunday evening, BA World Cargo depot was blockaded for about four
and a half hours by eight protestors locked to each-other.

Protestors sabotaged the contraversial LNG pipeline in Wales, causing
significant damage to the pipe itself and works vehicles.

Finally, a battalion of ten clowns marked out the site of a 4th runway in
the garden of Lord Soley, chairman of the Heathrow Forward campaign.

Saturday 18 August

Children and their parents blockade the World Freight Centre at Heathrow
in protest at the damage to the climate caused by unnecessarily flying
food around the world.

60 people occupy Carmel Agrexco's Heathrow warehouse in Hayes, where
produce is air freighted in from territories occupied by Israel,
highlighting the issues of food miles and the unjust and unlawful
distribution of natural resources in the Middle East.

Friday 17 August

The doors of six London travel agencies are chained shut and plastered
with signs saying 'Closed, gone to the Climate Camp.' Ten people occupy
the office of private charter company XL, which has a contract with the
Home Office to deport rejected asylum seekers, exposing the connection
between climate change and forced migration.

Activists superglue themselves to the front doors of the Department for
Transport's London headquarters. A tourist spontaneously joins the protest
by chaining himself to the doors.

Thursday 16 August

Farnborough and Biggin Hill airports, both exclusively used by private
executive jets, are blockaded by two teams of climate activists in disgust
at the obscenity of the super-rich using planes as a taxi service.

Wednesday 13 August

A group of activists set up a climate camp on the wing of an Airbus A380
on its way to be assembled in France, pledging to stay until government
ministers come up with a 'safe' aviation policy.

[halva]

Here in Athens a wall slogan in a middle-class suburb: for every burnt tree one burnt car.

Self-indulgent and meaningless ventilation of emotion of course. No need for any self-righteous condemnations. Mentioned for information.

Many here in Greece are demanding postponement of next month's national elections, but this can be done constitutionally only in a war situation.

In an age of weather warfare how does one distinguish between a war situation and a peace situation?

[halva]

Protesters wore copies of the Tyndall Report on their hands during the
mass action, carrying a banner reading, 'We are armed....only with
peer-reviewed science'.

Somewhere among the organizers of these demonstrations, at some level, there is a malicious sadist, a Jay Reynolds.

That doesn't mean that he/she is in control of them.

[jayreynolds]

On the contrary. On the fifteenth of August and in the midst of such a threat, the Prime Minister of the country calls elections. When in August more than half of the civil servants are on vacation and the state is paralysed.,

Huh?

What a bunch of lazy bastards, no wonder your state is a failure, nobody wants to work.

Turns out it's all true:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6450235.stm

No more slouching, Greeks told
By Malcolm Brabant
BBC News, Athens



Mr Pavlopoulos is making a civil service career less attractive
Greek civil servants have been told that most of them will have to remain at their desks during the hottest months of the summer.
Greece's government traditionally grinds to a halt in August, but this is about to change.

The interior minister, Prokopis Pavlopoulos, has decreed that from 1 July until 15 September, two out of three civil servants must be at work.

This is the latest initiative to try to make Greece more efficient.

Siestas

Once upon a time, Greek parents encouraged their children to become civil servants.

Salaries weren't great, but it was a secure job for life, with a good pension that could be taken early.

There was power and little responsiblity, and best of all, minimal working hours, clocking off at 2pm for a siesta, or to start a second job, as well as the opportunity to vanish for the whole of August.

For decades, Greece has been paralysed for the summer because of initially-sanctioned inertia, but not anymore.

Perks threatened

The government wants to put a halt to these practices and try to bring Greek civil servants in line with the rest of Europe.

Whether or not it means that more business will get done in the summer is an open question.

Civil servants can be surly creatures at the best of times, but now that their perks have been cut still further, they're unlikely to become more charming.

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Lou, you're still good for a few laughs:
http://p092.ezboard.com/fcontrailsandchemtrails22884frm1.showMessageRange? topicID=5984.topic

[dewey189]

Perks threatened
The government wants to put a halt to these practices and try to bring Greek civil servants in line with the rest of Europe. Helluva good idea for the US as well. There's no reason they should have better bennies than the people who pay them.

[halva]

Sorry Lou. I should have put this information up elsewhere.

[jayreynolds]

Lou, folks can get lots more laughs about you here:
http://allaircraftarenotinvolved.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=22&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Socrates has pretty much figured it all out.

Humor aside, how can you personally live with yourself knowing you are livng such a lie is amazing to most people. Pathological liar is about the only explanation I can come up with.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_can_you_tell_if_someone_is_a_pathological_liar

[halva]

If Socrates has any sense he will do with his whole forum what I just did with my posts on the Greek fires. Close it down and make a fresh start. Free from all this. Nobody anywhere can get better at anything in the face of "criticism" of this type. Socrates cannot afford the indulgence of having Reynolds for an admirer.

[jayreynolds]

If Socrates has any sense he will do with his whole forum what I just did with my posts on the Greek fires. Close it down and make a fresh start. Free from all this. Nobody anywhere can get better at anything in the face of "criticism" of this type. Socrates cannot afford the indulgence of having Reynolds for an admirer.

Always the busy-body trying to be "The Decider" for everyone else, Wayne Hall..............

[halva]

Greece under Attack by Tourist-Developer Cartels

Dedicated to those people died in flames

Greece under Attack by Tourist-Developer Cartels

http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=757320

In the last week of August of 2007, Greece underwent the most
enormous catastrophe in her history since the restoration of
Parliamentary Democracy in 1974. Western and Southern Peloponnese,
the "heart" of both ancient and modern Greece, as well as other
places like Athens's suburbs and Evia Island, have been totally
destroyed by wildfires. 65 people have been killed (among them was a
mother with her four young children), several more are missing,
numerous villages have been wiped off the map and millions of acres
of forest or agricultural land have been converted into ashes.

Apart from the loss of human lives, the destruction wrought by the
arsonists will have far reaching effects that will surface in due
time. The devastation of forests will result in an overall rise of
temperature, floods in the winter, corrosion of the ground and
landslides. Furthermore, the razed areas will be affected
economically by a tremendous rise of unemployment, a huge emigration
of their native population to Athens or other big cities, while the
whole of Greece will face an overall decline in agricultural output,
since those areas were key producers of vegetables, fruits and, most
importantly, olive oil.

Undoubtedly, a major crime has been committed. A crime, however, that
is not spontaneous, but premeditated. The 290 different centers of
fires that broke out in Peloponnese definitely point to an organized
arson plot.

In order to locate the arsonists, one has to look at the strong
financial interests which have been pressuring for the "development"
of the destroyed areas for several years up to now.

The Ionian Road

The construction of a national highway in Peloponnese under the
name "Ionian Road" – specifically the south part of Ionian Road, as
Ionian Road is extended in Central and Northern Greece too –
connecting her four major cities, Corinth, Patra, Pirgos, and
Kalamata, was conceived as an idea in 1996, but it was postponed
mainly due to the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens which absorbed most of
the state's resources. The new right-wing government of Nea
Dimokratia promised in 2004 to start building the highway soon. At
last, in July of 2007 its construction was auctioned to the native
and multinational construction companies Vinci–El.Technodomiki–TEV,
Aktor, J&P Avax, Hochtief and Athina, and it was supposed to start
right away, with the prospect of being completed in 2011[i].

The Ionian Road would secure road access to the enormous tourist
facilities that were being built in Western Peloponnese, and those
that were still being planned at the time. The completion of the
Ionian Road ought obviously not to take more than the required time;
therefore, its construction shouldn't be interrupted by "aggravating"
forests, biotopes and ecosystems as well as environmental and
community activists. The Nea Dimokratia MP for the Elea region of
Western Peloponnese, G. Kontogiannis, had stated clearly, as early as
2004: "The political leadership of the Ministry of Public Works
believes that the Ionian Road has to proceed rapidly so as to make up
for the delays of the last few years..."[ii].

Ionian Road was originally scheduled to cross over places of high
environmental significance, such as Lake Kaiafa in Zaharo area, which
had been included in the Natura 2000 European catalogue. As the
chairman of Zaharo's Environmental Protection League, Mr. Agrapidas
said in July, "The combination of ground and lacustrine ecosystems as
well as their co-existence with antiquities, mythological places and
the thermal fountain renders Lake Kaiafa ecosystem a unique cluster
that has been declared an archaeological site and a landscape of
special natural beauty".

The prefectorial council of Elea, in which the aforementioned area
falls under, refused to cede Lake Kaiafa for the construction of
Ionian Road, despite the strong pressure by the Ministry of Public
Works. According to Mr. Agrapidas's claims, there was an alternative
route for the highway, not crossing the area; nevertheless it might
have been longer and of higher cost[iii]. At last, the Ministry
succumbed to the demands of the locals and decided on the 24th of
July to divert Ionian Road towards another direction, far away from
the lake, so that its fragile ecosystem would not be harmed[iv].
However, a mere month later, the area around Lake Kaiafa was burned
to the ground. The constructors of the highway will now face little
resistance in their exploitation of the devastated area.

Strangely enough, the centers of most of the fires that broke out in
Peloponnese coincide perfectly with the original plan for the Ionian
Road! Compare the NASA satellite photograph of the Peloponese burning
to the Ionian Road plan.

[halva]

Other interests in Western Peloponnese

Lake Kaiafa had also attracted the attention of other benevolent
investors and developers. In 2003, the former Deputy Minister of
Economics D. Georgakopoulos of the former government of
the "socialist" PASOK, was charged with pressuring the Domanial
Service of Elea, the region that he was elected in, to declassify
Lake Kaiafa as a protected territory in order for it to be granted to
big tourist corporations for the development of hotel complexes and
golf courses. He had also presented a relevant report according to
which an investment of 150 million euros would be made on Lake Kaiafa
for the "modernization" of spas and the construction of other
facilities of the area[v], referring to the ecologists who protested
against the plans as "ecoterrorists"[vi]. Now that the beautiful
biotope around the lake has been burnt up, the "investors" and their
political agents won't need to counter any bureaucratic barrier
or "ecoterrorism" in order to declassify it.

Apart from Lake Kaiafa, many other places in Western Peloponnese
through which the Ionian Road will pass, are also considered to
be "ideal" for the development of tourist businesses. For instance,
in the Messinia region in the South-West of Peloponnese more than one
billion euros are going to be invested in the construction of 11 big
hotel blocks of 5 stars, luxurious summerhouses, sea therapy and spa
facilities, a seasonal center as well as 4 huge golf courses. The
major "investor" in this area seems to be a notorious Greek ship-
owner, V. Konstantakopoulos, who runs Costamare Shipping SA, based in
Panama, but strong international entrepreneurial groups operate
alongside him; Kempinski multinational corporation which is mostly
active in South-Eastern Asia is going to exploit the sea therapy and
spa facilities and a famous American company has undertaken the
exploitation of the golf courses[vii]. Konstantakopoulos has
appropriated enormous areas of agricultural land with olive trees,
some times without the consent of their owners, as well as land in
areas alongside the Navarino lagoon (also protected by Natura 2000)
openly defying the law. The few "bureaucratic" problems considering
the permissions of Archeological and Forest Service that had remained
were overcome after his visit to the presidential palace and his
meeting with the Prime Minister K. Karamanlis, in 2005. He also
secured 45% subsidization by the state for his investments[viii]! And
now, that much of the Messinia district has been consumed by the
wildfires, he definitely feels even luckier as he can extend his
business to the devastated area expropriating the land he needs in
depreciated prices.

Another place in Western Peloponnese that is considered by
the "investors" to be a bargain is Katakolo in Elea district. In late
August, the famous international business association World Trade
Center Group sent their vise president, David H. Lee, to Elea and
ratified an agreement with state and local officials for
the "development" of the area[ix].

The region around ancient Olympia has also been the subject of
potentional exploitation. Many domestic and foreign "investors" have
proposed deploying the surrounding area by building modern stadiums,
hotels and other facilities and even use this place for organizing
the Olympic Games[x]! One of the reasons that they were not permitted
to implement their plan was that this surrounding area was
forestland. After the fire though, there is no more forest
surrounding Olympia so that barrier is no longer present.

Most people in Greece know that Western Peloponnese has the most
magnificent coasts and beaches in the whole country. Nevertheless,
her people were very traditional and closely linked to their land and
property and with the agricultural sector of the area being
particularly strong, they had never desired to exploit their region
in a tourists-industry fashion. The tourist "investors" had good
knowledge of this fact and in order to successfully exploit the area,
they first needed to preemptively destroy any popular resistance to
their plans and they couldn't care less if tens of people there died
in flames. As for the people who survived, most of them will move to
Athens to seek a job, while the few remaining there, will apparently
work as waiters or security guards to the huge hotel blocks that will
spring soon. The "investors" seem to have achieved what they had
intended.

[halva]

The Germans' special role

Mountain Taygetos and Parnonas in Central and Southern Peloponnese
respectively, were also burned. It was common knowledge among those
local societies that powerful German interest group desired avidly to
transform the mountains into ski resorts and chalets. The Germans
again had been interested in exploiting Mountain Grammos in Northern
Greece, which was partially burned this summer in July. German
capital has also been active in Western Peloponnese and Evia buying
enormous pieces of land, either as private investors or under the
cover of offshore companies. Not surprisingly, one of the contractors
participating in the construction of Ionian Road in Peloponnese,
Hochtief, is German and interestingly enough it is owned by Kaitel,
the son of the homonymic notorious Nazi general. It seems that while
German imperialism failed to subject Greece in World War II having
been beaten and humiliated by her strong resistance movement, it
succeeds in 2007 without military invasion, just with some fires and
the help of their modern collaborators; not the security battalions,
but the regional and central bureaucrats ruling the Greek state.

Yet, the similarly crucial role of British and American interests
should not be ignored. Having almost fully "occupied" Corfu and Crete
Island with their hotels and golf courses, they coveted Peloponnese
as well, buying huge swathes of land to be used for tourist
developments. Indeed, they are very loyal to their colonialist
traditions of 1944 when the British bombed Athens and killed 40.000
civilians in order to crash the resistance movement, which had
liberated Greece a long time before they came in, and of 1967, when
the U.S. imposed a seven-year fascist dictatorship, which totally
destroyed the country.

The Golf Lobby

One of the strongest blocks of interests, if not the strongest, which
desire the "resortisation", so to speak, of the Greek coasts are the
prospective constructors of golf courses. The huge level of
environmental destruction that the construction of golf courses will
lead to, such as waste of water, use of enormous quantities of
artificial fertilizers and disruption of the nearby ecosystems
doesn't seem to concern the Greek government which does everything
possible to grant large areas in the countryside to golf investors.
The Minister of Public Works, G. Souflias, claimed in May of 2007
that "considering the golf issue there are many deficiencies, as
Greece has just 6 golf courses whereas France has more than 500,
Italy more than 200, Spain more than 300 and Portugal 36". Moreover,
another high-rank officer of the ruling party, the Deputy Minister of
Economics, P. Doukas, is at the same time the president of the Greek
Golf Association, and had publicly declared in 2005 that even more
golf courses are necessary. It should be noted however that the main
opposition party, PASOK, before the elections of 2004, had promoted
the support and the expansion of the golf industry in Greece, and
after the elections, which it lost, it hasnʼt been opposed to golf
policy of the Nea Dimokratia government at all[xi].

As expected, all the environmental studies and reports that warn
about the destruction that golf courses will cause have been
deliberately ignored. "Who passes by those studies in favor of
tourist development?" wanders Mrs. E. Mpriasouli, professor in the
Department of Geography in the Aegean University. "They think that
this way they are going to get the hotels full of people. 70% of
global tourism is manipulated by a single organization (i.e. Global
Tourist Organization). They promote the golfer cluster and they
blackmail us to accept this model. The same happened with the pools.
[…] This model of tourism concerns the foreigners who stay and do
everything inside the tourist facility. They don't go outside of it,
they don't consume any domestic products, and of course everything is
produced and constructed by big companies"[xii].

Western Peloponnese's long coastline was ideal for the golf industry
to construct several golf courses. By 2005, the International Golf
Association was very optimistic that in 2006 and 2007 there would be
a very big golf boom[xiii]. However, so far the locals and the
environmentalists struggled hard against this prospect. Now that
there is no environmental value in the devastated areas, that boom;
will face little resistance. In confirmation of that, the
aforementioned Deputy Minister of Economics, who is renowned in
Greece for his cynicism, appeared on national Television two days
after the disaster, and he attempted to soothe the pain of the people
living in the disaster areas by promising that a development plan,
considering tourism and especially golf courses, will start being
implemented there right away! Of course, the sold out Greek Mass
Media, both public and private, branded the plan as a great
benefaction.

Government's and main opposition's complicity

The government of Nea Dimokratia, which has been ruling from March
2004, has devoted itself in the tourist development of the
countryside and coasts in order to increase the annual influx of
tourists. "There are one million Europeans who are interested in
buying a summerhouse in Greece" was one of the main arguments of
government officials, who used to refer to tourism as Greeceʼs heavy
industry[xiv]! Thus, the Ministries of Civil Works and Tourism put up
a plan of tourist "development", under the name of New Zoning
Framework for Tourism, which blatantly offered land and water to the
tourist cartels.

According to the abovementioned framework, an "investor" can buy land
everywhere, and simply by naming their investment as a "tourist" one,
get a big subsidization and build four times more than a privateer,
as long as they sell the 70% of the houses to privateers and run the
rest 30% as a hotel. They have also the right to build in
environmentally protected areas or skerries provided they name
them "tourist"! This situation is aggravated by the inexistence of a
National Cadastral Register, which would at least classify some
forestlands or biotopes as such and might prevent them from being
built[xv].

However, for this plan to be successful an overall reconsideration of
zoning in the country needed to take place, that is to say,
permissions for appropriating forestland should be awarded.
Therefore, in early 2007, the government tabled a constitutional
amendment according to which, article 24, stating that construction
in forestland is strictly forbidden, would be practically abolished.
The official opposition, PASOK strongly condemned the amendment and
blocked the ratification of it by withdrawing from the voting - the
funny thing is that, in 2003, when PASOK was in power, it tried to
pass an identical amendment, but Nea Dimokratia, then the official
opposition, refused to support it. Although, finally, article 24 was
not abolished, the prospective arsonists were encouraged to hasten
their plans, and consequently, in the summer of 2007, Greece suffered
the greatest number of wildfires in her modern history.

Furthermore, the Sub-Ministry of Environment, which happens to fall
under the Ministry of Public Works and is responsible for using the
state funds provided to the latter for the protection of the forests
and biotopes, did very little on this. Most of the, already few,
money for environmental protection were transferred back to the
Ministry of Public Works in order to support works already under way,
using the ridiculous excuse that the Sub-Ministry of Environment was
unable to spend it all[xvi].

Another way in which the government is responsible for the holocaust
is that it caused the collapse of the Fire Brigade. The Ministry of
Public Order, under whose jurisdiction the Fire Brigade falls, hadnʼt
recruited the required number of firemen, preferring instead to hire
thousands of policemen! In addition to this, the virulently right
wing Minister of Public Order, V. Polidoras, transferred incompetent
officers to key positions simply because they were members of the
ruling party, and those officers were eventually proven to be
completely incapable of combating the numerous wildfires[xvii].

The tourist-developer cartels soon realized the incapacity of the
Fire Brigade and the insufficient measures for the protection of the
forests, and therefore, encouraged by the high temperatures and the
strong winds in this area, obviously decided it was a very convenient
time for them to put their plan into action.

[halva]

The scapegoats

When the first fires in the Peloponnese broke out, everybody thought
it would be the ordinary land developers who casually burn pieces of
forestland every year in order to build on them. Yet, when several
new fires broke out which, unprecedentedly, burned whole villages to
the ground, killing tens of people, the public started suspecting an
organized plot by strong native entrepreneurs or even multinational
companies. Greece was apparently under attack, and since the fire
brigade and their political chiefs in the Ministry of Public Order
were proved to be totally incapable to put down the fires, the
government tried to spin the mayhem unleashed by the cartels to its
own advantage. Two days after the first fires, the Prime Minister,
following the advice of his image-makers, appeared on National
Television wearing an ordinary jacket, like George Bush did right
after September 11th, and stated that Greece faces an asymmetric
threat. Nevertheless, he obviously didn't name those actually
responsible for the fires, whose identities he most definitely knows.
On the contrary, his colleagues in the government secretly or even
openly blamed anarchists and political extremists for the arsons
claiming that "they want to destabilize democracy"!

The mass media which support the government invented new imaginary
enemies like the Turks, the Albanians or even PASOK, blaming them for
the wildfires! PASOK, of course, condemned these scenarios as
conspiracy theories, but on the other hand, it just put the blame on
the government accusing it of incompetence. It is more than obvious
that PASOK knew that the arsonists were the tourist-industry cartels,
but it didn't want to stand up to them, as, when in government, it
was (and will be) tightly intertwined with them.

The police and its dependent secret services, all of them being
famous on a world scale for their incompetence and stupidity, but
very effective at beating up defenceless immigrants and protestors,
did their best to find the perpetrators of the terrible crime. The
result was the arrest of an old woman in Zaharo for causing the fire
by negligence while she was cooking in her backyard, an Albanian
immigrant who was misleadingly presented as the one having put some
fires in order to take revenge from his Greeks employers for
mistreating him, and a 62 year old pensioner arrested in Areopoli of
Lakonia of South Peloponnese who was a former member of PASOK and was
forced to confess that he was one of the arsonists[xviii]. Yet, in
this case the police needn't have necessarily acted as stupidly as
always; the mission surely assigned to them by the government was to
cover up the actual arsonists.

Conclusion

As days pass and more evidence comes to the surface, it becomes more
and more obvious that the instigators of this recent destruction in
Greece are the multinational tourist-sector cartels. Nevertheless,
the implementation of the arson attack that caused it was not
something that ordinary arsonists (usually foreigners hired by petty
developers) could have done; on the contrary, it required perfect
organization, planning and coordination. Thus, the perpetrators of it
are definitely the cartels' instruments, that is to say foreign
secret services.

It is widely accepted that tourist cartels of Western Europe and
America with the collaboration of their Greek business
representatives, and the tolerance of the corrupted local
politicians, have been trying to convert Greece into a huge tourist
resort for well-off Europeans and Americans and her people into
waiters. For decades, the E.U. has been using economic violence,
forbidding Greece to subsidize her own industry and agricultural
production or to impose import duties to their products while the
U.S. have been blackmailing her to buy their weapons exploiting and
inflaming the tension between her and neighbouring Turkey (also a
great customer of the U.S. weapon industry), in a manner reminiscent
of Italian mafia "protection". However, this kind of violence didnʼt
bring swift results and they decided to resort to physical violence,
like the one that they regularly exert in their colonies.

So far, the Euro-American cartels seem to have achieved their target
to devastate a big part of Greece. But her people have not said their
last word yet. They will definitely claim their land back.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

[i] Corinth, Patra, Pirgos, Motorway to be ready by summer 2011,
GoWest.Gr, 24/7/07, http://www.gowest.gr/index2.php?
option=com_content&task=view&id=9777&pop=1&page=0&Itemid=1585

[ii] ND will end PASOKʼs fiasco over the Ionian motorway, Indymedia
Athens, 27/8/07, http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?
lang=el&article_id=752934

[iii] The road can be moved, the lake, not quite, Kathimerini,
08/07/2007.

[iv] Statement of Public Works Minister, Mr Georgios Souflias, on the
signing of the contract re the North-West Road of the Peloponese,
24/7/07, http://www.minenv.gr/download/2007-07-
24.dilosis.g.souflia.gia.ypografi.symbasis.elefsin a-korinthos-patra-
pyrgos-tsakona.doc

[v] Kaiafa healing springs; investors needed, Rizospastis, 15/4/2003.

[vi] 18- hole crime, Golf construction hysteria in Greece,
Eleutherotypia, 3/4/2005.

[vii]Tourism for Global Capital, Aristera!
http://www.koel.gr/index2.php?
option=com_content&task=view&id=964&pop=1&page=0&Itemid=34

[viii] 18 holes in a forest, Apiganias: Development or Destruction?
Eleftherotypia, 1/5/2005

[ix] Meeting of Sp. Spyridon with International Entrepreneurial
Delegation, Press release, 21/08/2005.

[x] Olympia is Reborn, Kathimerini, 6/8/05.

[xi] 18- hole crime, Golf construction hysteria in Greece,
Eleftherotypia, 3/4/2005.

[xii] Ibid.

[xiii] Ibid.

[xiv] Hotels-villages for sale or hire, Kathimerini, 3/5/2007.

[xv] Their country? Sold. Eleftherotypia, 17/6/2007.

[xvi] Hypocrisy – Environment and Public Works Ministry tried to cut
back 30 million euros on "protected areas", Eleftherotypia, 21/7/2007.

[xvii] From Karamanlisʼs promises to… Soufliasʼs palpitations,
Eleftherotypia, 28/7/07.

[xviii] Questions over 62 y.o.ʼs arrest in Areopoli for arson, In.gr,
30/8/07, http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?
lngEntityID=827585&lngDtrID=244

[halva]

Anti-nuclear activist Dr. Helen Caldicott interviewed at New York
Skywatch, a site whose real focus is a subject Dr. Caldicott confesses
to knowing very little about.

http://www.newyorkskywatch.com/podcast/skywatchradio20070718.mp3
or
http://tinyurl.com/ysvd6f

Fifty minutes of talking at cross purposes, with a very diplomatic and
generous, or perhaps just naive and confused, or else disingenuous,
interviewer.

Dr. Caldicott thinks that US Congress has become amazingly accessible
since the Democrats returned as the majority. Are they, and would they
be, so accessible to "Airship Al" of New York Skywatch? This is a
question the guys at New York Skywatch are not asking Dr. Caldicott.

[halva]

The parliamentarian and medical doctor Tassos Choremis who most recently brought up the chemtrails issue in the Greek parliament
http://www.enouranois.gr/english/political/indexchoremis.htm
has been re-elected in the Korinthias district
http://ekloges.ypes.gr/pages_en/index.html
despite the overall fall in the vote for his PASOK socialist party.

[halva]

The parliamentarian and medical doctor Tassos Choremis who most recently brought up the chemtrails issue in the Greek parliament
http://www.enouranois.gr/english/political/indexchoremis.htm
has been re-elected in the Korinthias district
http://ekloges.ypes.gr/pages_en/index.html
despite the overall fall in the vote for his PASOK socialist party.

Sorry, false alarm. He didn't get in.

[halva]

Rosalind Peterson and Allan Buckmann at New York Skywatch. They both recently addressed the United Nations in New York City at the 60th Annual Conference of NGOs, “Climate Change: How It Impacts Us All.” Both guests commented on the ubiquitous haze as they flew across the United States.
http://newyorkskywatch.com/podcast/skywatchradio20070916.mp3

[kola]

i see things are rotting on the vine here.

this is good.

Kola

[halva]

It's better for there to be no discussion than the kinds of "discussions" that took place here in the past.

[halva]

I must say that the line that Rosalind appears to have adopted at the UN doesn't differ in any significant way from the Footsoldier approach.

[kola]

I agree with you halva, on both of your posts.

good luck out there! :)

Kola

[halva]

Thanks Kola.

Other Americans with your views on climate change and the UN haven't been so friendly lately. Unfortunately there has been a nasty argument with Oregon Skywatch and Arizona Skywatch as a result of a couple of telephone conferences we had earlier in the year between two members of our Greek group and a number of the American Skywatches. The trouble I think stems from American scepticism about joint initiatives with "globalists", twinnings of towns in the US and Europe, suspicion that there might be "NATO spies" in our midst, different political attitudes generally.

Bridget Conroy, with whom Rosalind Peterson seems to have collaborated quite a bit in the past, evidently doesn't have the same realpolitik attitude towards the "socialist" UN as Rosalind and her UN-function partner Alan Buckmann, neither of whom are "climate change sceptics". And neither is Dane Wigington, who was also interviewed recently at New York Skywatch.

But not even the most pro-capitalist "sceptic" could object to the orientation towards private initiative of Alan Buckmann's NGO that is already implementing pro-life solutions as an alternative to geoengineering.

Bridget Conroy is impressed by the writings of arch-climate change "sceptic" Bjorn Lomborg, enemy of ecologists.

It is probably inevitable that an attempt at working together with Europeans would aggravate these internal American disagreements, which in the past have of course been exploited by "debunkers" on this forum and elsewhere.

Hopefully in Europe we will soon be able to take an initiative as important as the UN meeting that Rosalind Peterson has just pulled off. Congratulations to her for the way that she seems to be able to unite Americans.

[weatherman714]

It's amazing how much energy I bring to a forum... CTC is rotting on the vine as well. I've been extremely busy over the past month and really havn't had time to do the in depth meteorological analysis I've been doing since May. I'm taking a Java class and I'm really beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I think I can create what I've always wanted to create in term of a weather model. Java is the gateway. Currently it is in Fortran and you can't do anything with Fortran as far as web and windows applications go. The logic is all the same but Java allows me to download temperature data automatically from the nws website on a daily basis and it would allow an automatic database update so I wouldn't have to waste hours collecting data. I could then really get the process rolling espically if I could automatically download past data, wow would that save a tremendous amount of time. I'm thinking by June '08,I will have an entire US and possibly Canadian weather model that forecasts highs and lows and precipitation, as well as ENSO in both the Pacific and Atlantic. I'm excited to say the least. Fortran allowed me to do research on a small scale which was significant over the past 16 months, since version 1.0.

[halva]

Weatherman I am sorry that you cannot have this kind of discussion in your professional milieu.

[weatherman714]

... and you wonder why I'd rather work with the Chinese and Russians, at least I know they follow up on what I have to say, I request someone from our side to have a chat with me and what do I get? Phone taps, stalking via car, viruses placed on my computer, repeated phone calls from NSA, and you expect me to remain sane... Although I commend the attempts by Rosalind Peterson at the UN I doubt she will get anywhere because NATO, China,Russia, Canada and the US all do large scale weather modification. They will give her the time of day but nothing will ever come out of it. The militaries always take president over the people Halva. This is one part of reality I don't think the Chemtrail movement has yet to grasp.

[halva]

I have just written a paper on this subject, which I will be delivering at a conference on Friday and will post here afterwards.

[halva]

http://www.spectrezine.org/environment/Hall6.htm

This is not the paper mentioned in the last posting.

[Lou]

... and you wonder why I'd rather work with the Chinese and Russians, at least I know they follow up on what I have to say, I request someone from our side to have a chat with me and what do I get? Phone taps, stalking via car, viruses placed on my computer, repeated phone calls from NSA, and you expect me to remain sane... Although I commend the attempts by Rosalind Peterson at the UN I doubt she will get anywhere because NATO, China,Russia, Canada and the US all do large scale weather modification. They will give her the time of day but nothing will ever come out of it. The militaries always take president over the people Halva. This is one part of reality I don't think the Chemtrail movement has yet to grasp.


Ah yes, the almighty_ in the Interest Of National Security card don't you know.

They can do whatever they please whenever they please as long as the cover story is "In The Interest Of National Security".

A few of us grasp this fact quite well.;)

[halva]

Can you do anything with the information Weatherman is giving us, Lou?

[Lou]

Can you do anything with the information Weatherman is giving us, Lou?

What I can do with it is understand that 'weatherman' has been identifying CT activity via his unique forecasting abilities consistently for quite some time now.

Until I really opened up my mind to what Paul was doing I was a critic of his work or what I perceived as "Guess work" but I actually studied and followed his post on the weather related CT aspects and absolutely agree with his forecast now, although I sill do not completely understand how he is able to do it, nonetheless he certainly can.

I think what put me off his work initially was the Japanese, Russian, China talk but if you think about the larger picture of how these countries are involved with various forms of weather modification projects you will see that what he has to say about them makes lot of sense.

[weatherman714]

I think what put me off his work initially was the Japanese, Russian, China talk but if you think about the larger picture of how these countries are involved with various forms of weather modification projects you will see that what he has to say about them makes lot of sense.

I was actually providing weather information for our side through late '04. It was after our side screwed me out of my snow in the winter of '04/'05 that the information stopped. That's the side of the story that you don't repeat or express Halva. That gets hidden. They backstabbed me first. I expressed several times I did not appricate them stalking me, making anamous phone calls, tapping my phone, reading my e-mails, putting viruses on my computer all in attempt to scare information out of me. The only thing the US Military understands with this project is force and the will do challenge them. Everytime they attempt to push me our side gets their asses kicked like the cub scouts they are. Case in point when I was screwed on Dec 4,2006 I started a thread over at Mav's board that gave the Chinese and Russian directives on where to spray, how much and when almost in real time. My goals were clear...


If I were the Chinese, I would be looking to spray NW China during the overnight hours the next two nights and create a small area of high pressure aloft, with warmer temperatures at the surface. I think an increase of 4F-8F(2C-4C) in overnight temperatures should work. Provided the Russians continue to spray the weak system across NW Russia. This should derail the USAF's plans to create another monster Gulf of Alaska trough. It will move the Eastern Sibierian Low pressure system to the northeast and sheer a piece of it back to the west over N.Central Siberia. If the Gulf of Alaska trough does not have the cold air from Eastern Siberia to fuel it, it will become weakened and the energy will be transfered to the Eastern US, thus proloning the cold snap being experienced here. It should also begin to create a large scale high pressure system across NE China and accelerate the ending of the El Nino across the Pacific Ocean, bring back well needed moisture to SE China.

It's been a La Nina since Jan 30,2007. We're going on 9 months now and it's the longest La Nina since the 1998-2001 one. It took 58 days to end the El Nino... and we are very close to having it be a very very strong La Nina with avg. sea surface temps greater than 4C below normal. We're running 2- 3C below normal now. It could reach -6C sometime in the next 45 days.

[Lou]

It's been a La Nina since Jan 30,2007. We're going on 9 months now and it's the longest La Nina since the 1998-2001 one. It took 58 days to end the El Nino... and we are very close to having it be a very very strong La Nina with avg. sea surface temps greater than 4C below normal. We're running 2- 3C below normal now. It could reach -6C sometime in the next 45 days.

I sure hope we do not get a repeat this winter of the North East Ice Storm of 1998, talk about a frozen HELL , that was it.

What do you see in your forecast for this winter or is that a bit far out to really predict?

From what I've read of the "NOAA PROGNOSTIC DISCUSSION FOR LONG-LEAD SEASONAL OUTLOOKS" are we looking at a rather mild winter 2007 into 2008 due to the combination of La Nina / ENSO trends at present or should I just wait and stick my head out the window? :D

http://www.cpc.noaa.gov/products/predictions/90day/fxus05.html

[halva]

Well, I'm glad we have the discipline of two-way communication over this subject. Keep it up if you know what you are talking about.

Footsoldier would be better off contributing to this particular discussion, if she has anything to add, rather than encouraging Smellie and Jeff Reynolds by responding to them and quoting them.

[weatherman714]

lol... your better off sticking your head out the window than listening to those guys at NOAA... they still have yet to declare the current ENSO event a La Nina, dispite the fact that SST are running 2 to 3 degrees C below normal.
For the Eastern US, my oak tree shows a cold November, followed by a warm December and first half of Janurary, followed by an extremely bitter end for winter like we had this past winter, all be it much much colder. It's the first time since 1987 that we've had acorns falling in October.

[halva]

Mediterranean No Nuclear Neighbourhood – MN3

DECLARATION

We, the Organizations from 9 countries of the wider area of the Mediterranean gathered in Rhodes, September 27-29 2007, and signed the Protocol of Cooperation for the Creation of the Mediterranean No Nuclear Neighbourhood (MN3), address the citizens of our countries with a hopeful dream. We gathered here to exchange views, experience but above all to express our sound will to coordinate our actions to counter the nuclear threat in our region, to solidify our common belief that, yes, we can successfully claim a new perspective for the environment, our life and the whole Planet.

The Network seeks to engage at the level of ideas with the growing climate change movement so as to increase common awareness.

Climate has already changed, Life is threatened by the overheat of Planet, oil price has reach new high levels and there is an effort to convince us that turning to nuclear power is a safe way to have a chance against global warming. «You don’t fight back malaria with plague» stated the President of Francophones’ Parliament of Belgium, Mr. Christos Doulkeridis, last year in Rhodes. Nuclear energy is not a convincing answer to the energy problems, especially in a region with a large seismicity such ours. The recent accident to the largest nuclear plant of the world in Japan, a technological metropolis which spends huge amounts of money for safety, reminded us of the risks. Nuclear energy is not a convincing answer in such an unstable geopolitically period as the one we are facing today. There are alternatives, well known to everybody, and all it is outmost necessity for society to press towards the governments and decision makers to change their views and actions on the problem.

Furthermore, new plans dealing with “defensive” nuclear weapons along with the doctrine of short-range nuclear wars are expected to launch a new arms race, a riskful dead-end, a point to no return. At the dawn of the 21st century, the major nuclear powers led by USA, are possessed by a fear syndrome, which makes them impose the nuclear war as a «rational» solution to face all sort of demons.

Taking all these under consideration, we have reasons to worry and get mobilized.

We have also reasons to be optimistic that our coordinated action in the area sets the premises to encounter these developments from a better standing.

We agree that:

We will all together monitor and publish recent developments on the ground of nuclear weapons, nuclear power reactors and generally any sector of industrial nuclear activity.

We will all together promote the Renewable and Environment-friendly Sources of Energy and the institution of measures for energy preservation, along with the forming of new consumer standards, these matters being strongly connected to the future of the planet and humanity.

We will all together inform, sensitize and motivate the citizens towards the substantive cause of the abolition of the nuclear threat against Life, Peace and the Environment.

We will all together claim our neighborhood to be transferred to a Nuclear-Free Zone of Peace.

Specifically we call for:

1. The United Nations to form a multilateral action committee for the establishment of Middle East Zone free from nuclear, chemical, biological and all weapons of mass destruction. Every efficient pressure to be exerted toward Israel - the only Middle Eastern state with an atomic arsenal – in order to sign and ratify the Non Proliferation Treaty and accepting transparency by opening its clandestine nuclear facilities to international inspections and supervision by International Organizations. Such an action could possibly lead to the de-escalation of the tension and the withdrawal of the Iranian nuclear program, Iran being member of a Middle East Free Zone, given the hypocritical and rashful attitude of the larger nuclear powers on the matter. The only perspective for Peace to the region is the prohibition of all weapons of mass destruction including nuclear, biological, chemical and any other type.

2. Efforts to be heightened towards the prevention of installation of two nuclear reactors, of a new and non tested type, at Belene, Bulgaria, which are being built without following the procedures provided by the International Treaties on the environmental impact, on a cross-border level. International mobilization to prevent International Organizations and Banks from funding the project has already been proved effective and must keep going on.

3. Stronger efforts towards the prevention of the realization of any nuclear project in Turkey, concerning any nuclear power plants, as well as towards the removal of US nuclear weapons both from Turkish, Greek and Italian territories.

4. International initiatives on preventing new nuclear projects in Romania, Egypt and Ukraine to be launched. Especially for Ukraine, it’s a totally irrational move to plan the building of 22 new nuclear reactors in a country that is suffering so much as a result to the Chernobyl Disaster.

5. The restriction of usage of coal, petroleum, gas as they cause climate change and are a large threat to the environment. We support energy efficiency, energy conservation and the use of renewable energy sources to counter this problem.

Our ultimate goal is the creation of a globally spread antinuclear movement which will unite the hundreds of antinuclear movements and organizations to a resonant fight. It is the only hope against twisted and dangerous minds that lead the planet to its destruction. The creation of the Mediterranean No Nuclear Neighbourhood is a step towards that cause.

In our way of thinking «short-range nuclear wars» have no place or rationality. We question the right of any country to hold nuclear technology. We know that many governments share our thoughts. However, we cannot count just on declarations. We demand political initiatives, specific actions to reduce the tension, minimize the possibilities of wars and ecological destructions. We need a Safe Peaceful World with no discriminations and poverty, no famine and distress.

We commit to fight with all our strength, faith, devotion, support and solidarity among us, in order to achieve our goals.

[Lou]

lol... your better off sticking your head out the window than listening to those guys at NOAA... they still have yet to declare the current ENSO event a La Nina, dispite the fact that SST are running 2 to 3 degrees C below normal.
For the Eastern US, my oak tree shows a cold November, followed by a warm December and first half of Janurary, followed by an extremely bitter end for winter like we had this past winter, all be it much much colder. It's the first time since 1987 that we've had acorns falling in October.

Ha, that's a rip, :D..........Is that what you base your long term forecast on Paul, oak trees, if that's a clear indicator of whether or not our winter is going to be mild or harsh I'd have to say that it's going to be a "MOTHER" because of the abundance of acorns being produces this year.

Our fuzzy caterpillars have very wide red bands this year which also is according to legend a strong indicator of a long, cold winter, I guess we are in for a really bad winter, A-What?

I was not aware that meteorologist used such highly technical means in determining and predicting long term forecast, lol.

Would you agree then that the "Farmers Almanac" is probably just as reliable as any meteorological long term forecast produced?

I'm standing by that window,...........lol ! :D

[weatherman714]

... It's a lot more than just how many fall Lou. I spent just about every summer in the 90's picking up acorns, counting them, marking dates, sizes, and any other chracteristics about them. It's how I figured out part of my weather formula.(we'll leave it at that).

[halva]

http://www.enouranois.gr/english/antinuclear/indexenglish3.htm

[halva]

European Union Environmental Commissioner Stavros Dimas has acknowledged that "spraying" is being carried out from aicraft and that the trails citizens are seeing in the sky are not just "normal" aircraft emissions.

Here is his correspondence with our collaborator Grigoris Maltezos:
http://www.press-bank.gr/articles/viewnews.aspx?lc=greek&newsid=0D8C3BF2-E50C-412C-BD0E-8F52369AE22A

"Electoral candidate for the Greek “Ecologists Greens” Mr. Grigoris Maltezos sent a letter to the European Environmental Commissioner Stavros Dimas, asking for a serious and responsible reply on the subject of the provocative activity of those who have decided to carry out aerial spraying with chemicals in Greece, all of Europe and the United States, with all of us featuring as guinea pigs!!" (Comment of Aliki Stefanou)

“The World-Wide Chemical Crime in the Atmosphere has many dimensions to it (political, economic, military) above and beyond the environmental.

It sounds like an unbelievable science-fiction or horror story, and yet the latest revelations confirm that:

“In the context of an American project aircraft are spraying a dangerous mixture of aluminium and barium in the skies of all of Europe. This “artificial” atmosphere, filled with chemicals, is supposed to cool the atmosphere of the earth and normalize the ozone layer.

The result: incalculable damage to health and environment.

Hundreds of thousands of people are monitoring the abovementioned processes. –Five to ten aircraft appear both in rural and in urban areas and fly back and forth at a height of around 6,000 metres. What at first appears to be an ordinary aircraft condensation trail from its emissions, if the spectator should happen to look at it more closely or for longer, leaves him bewildered.

These trails which are formed create a regular pattern and after a few minutes do not disperse but remain suspended. Another arrangement which frequently appears looks like a string of pearls, which can also assume the appearance of drops of liquid. Slowly but surely over a period of 30 to 60 minutes the trails spread out to form a persistent opaque mass of cloud, of a milky, foam-like texture.

What initially appeared to be an aircraft condensation trail has developed into what looks like a layer of fog. Within a space of between two and five hours it has covered the section of the sky that was being criss-crossed by the aircraft with a dense blanket of foggy cloud. .

WE ARE NO LONGER SATISFIED WITH THE ANSWERS BEING RECEIVED BY CITIZENS, PARLIAMENTARIANS AND EUROPARLIAMENTARIANS THAT “WE ARE NOT AWARE….” PEOPLE ARE COMPLAINING!!! AND MANY OF OUR FELLOW-CITIZENS ARE INEXPLICABLY BECOMING SICK WITH “ENVIRONMENTAL” ILLNESSES… LOOK AT THE STATISTICS FOR DOCUMENTED ANSWERS!

I ASK YOU THIS ON BEHALF OF ALL THE CITIZENS OF EUROPE.

WITH RESPECT,

GRIGORIS MALTEZOS

Mr. Maltezos received this reply from Commissioner Dimas:
October 15th, 2007 at 5:10 pm #
In response to: Maltezos

Mr. Maltezos,

Thank you for your question on the spraying from aircraft, which has preoccupied me many times in the past also. At this moment I do not have information on the basis of which it could be concluded that the spraying contains dangerous substances or that there is a problem with public health.

Stavros Dimas

[siegmund]

European Union Environmental Commissioner Stavros Dimas has acknowledged that "spraying" is being carried out from aicraft and that the trails citizens are seeing in the sky are not just "normal" aircraft emissions.



Mr. Maltezos received this reply from Commissioner Dimas:
October 15th, 2007 at 5:10 pm #
In response to: Maltezos

Mr. Maltezos,

Thank you for your question on the spraying from aircraft, which has preoccupied me many times in the past also. At this moment I do not have information on the basis of which it could be concluded that the spraying contains dangerous substances or that there is a problem with public health.

Stavros Dimas

Wayne, you can't read. You distort Dimas' words by creating white lies.

[jayreynolds]

Wayne, you can't read. You distort Dimas' words by creating white lies.

Wayne can read well enough. What he can't do is tell the truth.

This is what Wayne previously has claimed that Stavros Dimas said:
Let us examine Commissioner Dimas' answers to Erik Meijer:
To Meijer's first question of whether the Commission is aware of the questions the public is asking, Dimas replied: "The Commission is aware of claims that such trends and phenomena exist. However, the Commission is not aware of any evidence substantiating such claims. The extent to which aircraft condensation trails form and the speed at which they disappear are in the first instance determined by pressure, temperature, and the relative humidity of a given flight level. Fuel and combustion properties and the overall propulsive efficiency may also have an impact. Any changes or trends in the extent to which contrails are reported to remain visible and develop into more widespread clouds may thus be due to factors such as changes in - meteorological conditions, traffic volumes, jet-engine efficiency"

To the second question about the content of what were being called "chemtrails" , Dimas replied: "The Commission is aware of such claims but is not aware of any evidence that particles of barium, aluminium or iron are being emitted, deliberately or not, by aircraft."

To the third question of whether the spraying helps to cause rain, benefit telecommunications or combat climate change, the reply was: "No. It cannot be precluded that the release of such particles might affect precipitation and climate change, but as indicated above the Commission is not aware of any evidence that such releases take place."

To the fourth question on whether "chemtrails" are now being employed in Europe the reply was: "The Commission is not aware of any evidence that such methods are being employed in Europe."

To the fifth question on possible disadvantages of the spraying, the Commissioner replied: "None of the substances referred to are hazardous per se, but some effects on environment and public health can not be ruled out if large scale releases to the air occurred."

To the sixth question on whether the European Union is co-ordinating action to prevent unilateral actions with cross-border impact, Stavros Dimas said: "The Commission is not aware of any evidence suggesting that there is any reason to act."

[halva]

Quite so. It is a qualitatively new development for Dimas to be acknowledging that spraying is taking place.

More qualitatively new developments. Sympathetic coverage of a British "chemmie" by the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/derby/content/articles/2007/10/15/video_nation_sky_trails_video_feature.shtml

Windows Media Player version:
http://www.checktheevidence.com/Misc/VideoNation-Chemtrails.WMV

[siegmund]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/derby/content/articles/2007/10/15/video_nation_sky_trails_video_feature.shtml

Windows Media Player version:
http://www.checktheevidence.com/Misc/VideoNation-Chemtrails.WMV

Wayne oh Wayne,

The picture cult is the poodle's core of the chemtrail religion which is bare of any scientific proof.

[halva]

You can sign the Sierra Club petition below at:

http://www.nukefree.org/petition

Petition to Stop the Nuclear Bailout
To: The 110th United States Congress

We ask that all members of Congress join us in working to remove from the pending Energy Bill massively expensive loan guarantees---potentially a virtual blank check from taxpayers--- for the building of many more nuclear power plants.

We strongly support those parts of this Energy Bill that advance Renewable Portfolio Standards, increased fuel efficiency for automobiles, and other safe, clean solutions to global warming.

The tragedies of September 11th, 2001, underscore how vulnerable atomic reactors are to terror attacks by airplanes and missiles. Chernobyl and Three Mile Island remind us that major nuclear accidents can also be caused by human error.

The problem of radioactive waste remains unsolved. All reactors create deadly by-products that must be isolated for centuries. These wastes will have to be moved throughout the nation on trucks and trains, which could themselves have accidents and become terror and proliferation targets. There is no storage site even planned for the wastes that would come from new reactors. The controversial dump under construction at Yucca Mountain in Nevada, which may never open, cannot handle even the waste from reactors already in existence.

Huge quantities of energy are used for nuclear fuel enrichment, transportation, construction and waste storage. This is no solution to global warming. Reactors in Alabama and France have already shut because they are super-heating nearby rivers and streams.

The "new generation" nuclear plant now being built in Finland is already 18 months behind schedule and $900 million over budget. This is a design planned for our country. If construction begins here, tax and ratepayers will be stuck with the bill.

The Senate version of the Energy Bill could authorize the Department of Energy to provide virtually unlimited guarantees for backers of new reactors. The industry indicates it wants $25 billion in guarantees for 2008, and another $25 billion for 2009, with untold billions more to come after that.

The industry wants these subsidies because after fifty years, atomic power has been rejected by the marketplace. The first commercial nuclear reactor opened in 1957. But after fifty years of proven failure, Wall Street will not independently invest in more of them, and still no private insurance company will underwrite the possibility of a major reactor disaster.

In fact, nuclear power has been left behind by a profitable revolution in safe, clean, renewable energy sources, and in energy efficiency. Wind, solar, bio-fuels, geothermal, ocean thermal and more are shaping a green-powered Earth that produces jobs and sustainability. This is the true solution to global warming.

These wasteful reactor loan guarantees would siphon away resources better spent on truly competitive sources of power.

So we ask that they be removed from the Energy Bill. Higher auto mileage standards, biofuels, energy efficiency and requirements for renewable energy are what we need to survive and prosper, not more taxpayer bailouts for the proven failure that is atomic energy.

[halva]

Waiting for the Energy
By Kelpie Wilson
t r u t h o u t | Environment Editor

Thursday 11 October 2007

Conventional wisdom among environmentalists today says it would be unwise to pass a major climate change bill too soon. As long as the Bush veto looms and Republicans retain the filibuster club in the Senate, any climate change bill that passes through that birth canal is likely to be a stunted, shriveled thing. Better to wait until a strong bill can be passed than to establish a weak policy now.

But energy is supposed to be different. President Bush has admitted that America is "addicted to oil," and he is a big booster of technology as the solution to global warming. At his major-economies meeting on climate change in September, Bush called for an international fund to help developing nations finance clean-energy projects to stem climate change. But when he refused to offer a funding commitment or any other mechanism to implement the plan, international delegates turned up their noses and said they would wait till 2009 to engage the US on climate.

You might expect that Bush would be more willing to put his money where his mouth is where the US is concerned, but that does not seem to be the case.

Both houses of Congress passed energy bills last summer. The Senate, in particular, made a big effort to produce a bipartisan consensus. Environmentalists are calling the new energy bill "a down payment on efforts to combat global warming." But President Bush has not come out in support of either the House or Senate version of the bill.

Meanwhile, getting both houses of Congress to sit down and reconcile two very different bills has been difficult. In early September, Democrats sent discouraging signals about any bill passing this session. Perhaps they heard from their constituents, because by the end of the month, Harry Reid, the Senate majority leader, was promising to appoint conferees soon. It was to have been last week and has now been postponed until after the Senate gets back from its Columbus Day recess. On Wednesday, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi met with other Democrats to discuss bringing an energy bill directly to the floor.

There is no question that public support for clean, renewable energy is at an all-time high. This is showing up at the state level, where 31 states have passed some sort of mandate to produce energy from solar, wind and other renewable sources. The National Governors Association is proceeding to coordinate programs as best it can in the vacuum of federal energy policy. At an NGA forum on renewable energy, Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty (a Republican) said, "Energy is the defining issue of our time. The public is way ahead of the politicians ... there is enormous running room for policy makers to make significant advances ... there's an urgency to this issue, and none of us - Democrats, Republicans, politicians and the public - have acted as urgently as we need to."

With such strong public support, why have the Democrats found it so difficult to produce an energy bill?

Cars, Coal and Nukes

One problem has been Michigan Representative John Dingell, who chairs the House Energy Committee. Backing the position of Detroit automakers, Dingell refused to allow any increase in Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) fuel mileage standards.

And while the House bill has no CAFE increase, the Senate bill lacks a Renewable Energy Standard (RES). The House passed a RES requiring utilities to generate 15 percent of their power from renewable sources (mostly solar, wind and biomass) by 2020. The US is one of the few nations left that has not adopted such a standard, but Bill Wicker, on the staff of Senate Energy Committee Chair Jeff Bingaman, said the Republicans "blocked every effort" to include a national RES in the Senate energy bill.

Matt Letourneau, energy policy aide to Senator Pete Domenici, ranking member of the Senate energy committee, said a national RES would be unfair to some regions of the country that don't have abundant renewable resources, particularly the Southeast. He said the standard is too high and it is "not possible" to get 15 percent of the region's power from renewable energy.

But Scott Sklar, a solar energy lobbyist, said that there is plenty of renewable energy in the Southeast. "The Southeast is biomass rich and solar rich. Solar could provide 5-6 percent of the region's power, wind 1-2 percent and biomass 10-15 percent. The waste biomass from Hurricane Katrina alone could provide power for 30 years." Utilities can also substitute up to 4 percent of the target with increases in efficiency.

Lynn Hargis, a former attorney with the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC), who now works for Public Citizen monitoring energy regulation, said that the real problem is giant utility companies in the South, such as Duke, Entergy and Southern Company, which want to make huge profits selling cheap, coal-generated power in unregulated markets.

The Senate bill also includes loan guarantees of up to $50 billion for nuclear power. Tyson Slocum of Public Citizen calls that "an unprecedented financial obligation" and says that inclusion of those loan guarantees in a final bill would "overwhelm any benefits" from the other provisions.

Analysts say that loans to build nuclear plants are distinctively "sub-prime" with the risk of utilities defaulting running well over 50 percent, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Taxpayer billions wasted on boondoggle nuke plants are taxpayer billions that can't be spent putting solar panels on roofs or developing better batteries for electric cars.

Scott Sklar is less concerned about the loan guarantees. He says that any energy bill able to get past a Republican filibuster and a Bush veto will include loan guarantees for nuclear power, so there's no point in fighting it. He predicts that the Democrats will pass an energy bill by January or they "won't survive" the pressure from constituents, and that the bill will include lighter versions of the RES and CAFE standards, along with renewed production tax credits for solar and wind power.

But if the RES and CAFE provisions are watered down even more than the current versions, what will that do to our climate policy down payment?

A new analysis released by Environmental Defense shows that if we do nothing, US greenhouse gas emissions will rise 35 percent by 2030. If all of the best provisions from both House and Senate versions pass and are vigorously implemented, emissions would climb only 4 percent above today's levels by 2030. But because many of the provisions allow flexibility, if they are not implemented aggressively, they will allow emissions to grow 22 percent by 2030.

Combine this flimsy "down payment" with the sub-prime nuke loans, and you don't end up with much value. We need to do a lot better than this if we are going to prevent the worst ravages of global warming and hang on to our planetary home.

Scott Sklar says it is possible that Democrats could produce a final energy bill that is stronger than both current versions, but they would have to "ram" it through.

Democratic leaders could bypass a formal conference committee and strike a bicameral deal to put an energy bill directly on the floor in both houses at once. Nancy Pelosi indicated on Wednesday that she would pursue that option. A strongly progressive energy bill might not survive a Bush veto, but at least it would energize the progressive constituency that is ready for a real energy revolution.

[halva]

Struggle Behind the Scenes

Meanwhile, a series of skirmishes is taking place over coal among utilities, politicians, agencies and environmental groups.

Two weeks ago, Representative Henry Waxman sent a letter to the US Environmental Protection Agency, objecting to its permitting of a coal-fired power plant in Deseret, Utah. Waxman said the recent Massachusetts v. EPA Supreme Court decision requires EPA to address the coal plant's greenhouse gas emissions under the Clean Air Act. The Sierra Club is following up with a lawsuit.

On September 14, New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo subpoenaed five of the country's largest energy companies, demanding that they disclose the financial risks of their greenhouse gas emissions to shareholders.

Some environmental groups are targeting banks that invest in coal power-plant construction. Rainforest Action Network is planning protests at Citigroup and Bank of America branch offices around the country on November 16. "We're going upstream," a RAN spokesperson said. "Without bank financing, utilities can't actually build any of those plants."

Peter Montague of Environmental Research Foundation reports that since the beginning of 2006 at least two dozen new coal-fired plants have been canceled. Montague says, "A small but effective citizens' movement has managed to box in Big Coal."

Politicians are starting to declare themselves against coal. Presidential candidate Barack Obama released his energy and global warming plan this week, saying he would oppose all new coal-fired generation that did not include carbon capture and storage technology.

Just last week, Tampa Electric Co., a Florida utility, announced it was canceling plans to build a coal plant with carbon capture and storage because of uncertainties around the technical feasibility. Florida is one state that has been very clear that it won't allow any new coal-fired generation without carbon capture and storage. The Massachusetts Institute of Technology estimates that it will take ten years of testing for the technology to mature, if we start today. But today there is not even one demonstration plant anywhere in the world that incorporates the complete cycle of carbon capture and storage.

Senate majority leader Harry Reid also opposes new coal plants and has introduced a far-reaching bill (S. 2076 - the Clean Renewable Energy and Economic Development Act) that limits the federal financing of power transmission lines to those that carry at least 75 percent renewable energy. It applies the same standard to new power lines crossing federal land. This would keep Big Coal out of some of the new energy corridors that may be established under the Energy Policy Act (EPACT) of 2005.

But King Coal is hardly down for the count.

In early September, FERC designated a set of new national power corridors in the Northeast under the EPACT. State regulators and environmentalists are suspicious about the locations of the corridors, which seem designed to funnel cheap coal power from the Ohio Valley to the Northeast - where states have already committed to reducing greenhouse gasses, but power demand is high. Under the EPACT, federal regulators can override state concerns. Environmental Defense is considering a lawsuit.

Power to the People

Michael Peevey, president of the California Public Utilities Commission, said in a recent opinion piece for the San Francisco Chronicle that the old energy paradigm - where large centralized generators convert fossil fuels to electricity which is sent over transmission lines to homes and businesses - is over. Solar, he says, is a "disruptive technology" that is changing everything. He says the California Solar Initiative passed last year is on track to power one million homes by 2017.

And in California, it is not just homes getting powered; it is also people who are getting empowered.

Van Jones, an environmental and social activist and cofounder of the Ella Baker Center for Human Rights in Oakland, California, was interviewed on the radio program Living on Earth last week about the impact of solar jobs on the American workforce:

"There's a wonderful program, which I just can't stop bragging on, called 'Solar Richment,' where they got a modest amount of money, got 20 guys - you know low-income African-American, Latino, Filipino, one African-American woman. For nine weeks these guys got up, this young woman got up, every morning. They had to be there at nine o'clock. They had to learn these skills. Nine weeks later they did their first installation. There were local TV cameras there, solar employers were there saying, 'hey, we need workers.' And you know, the look on these young people's faces. Often these are the young men who are always seen as the villains and yet here they are, nine weeks later, African-American, Latino, with the baggy pants, the hair or whatever, but they've got their work boots on, they've got their orange jerseys on, and they're doing this work. And they are the ecological heroes."

One of the stupidest news stories on energy I've seen was a piece on CNN Money last week that said economists were "split" on whether renewable energy would create millions of new jobs. The article quoted experts at the Energy and Resources Group at the University of California, Berkeley, affirming that installing solar arrays, building wind farms and producing biomass would create at least a million new jobs, not vulnerable to offshore outsourcing. To counter them, the article quoted the chief economist at a Manhattan consultancy, who said it would be unrealistic to count on job gains in the solar sector since the technology hasn't taken off yet and there is no way of knowing if it ever will. "You certainly don't want to move all sorts of money into an area that's not going to be viable," he said.

Sadly, there are still too many people like this brain-dead economist running things in this country. And there are still too many unfortunates living in the past, such as the auto workers who have given up almost everything to hang on to production lines making Detroit Dinosaurs - those gas guzzlers no one will want in a few years' time when oil supply peaks and gas prices shoot up to the moon.

The future belongs to "Solar Richment," and all we are waiting for now is for those who think they are in charge to catch up with rest of us so we can build this beautiful new future together.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kelpie Wilson is Truthout's environment editor. Trained as a mechanical engineer, she embarked on a career as a forest protection activist, then returned to engineering as a technical writer for the solar power industry. She is the author of "Primal Tears," an eco-thriller about a hybrid human-bonobo girl. Greg Bear, author of "Darwin's Radio," says: "'Primal Tears' is primal storytelling, thoughtful and passionate. Kelpie Wilson wonderfully expands our definitions of human and family. Read Leslie Thatcher's review of Kelpie Wilson's novel "Primal Tears."

[halva]

16/10/2007 : NIRS
Nuclear Power, Climate Policy and Sustainability : Austria confirms its choice

Nuclear Power,
Climate Policy and Sustainability
An Assessment by the Austrian Nuclear Advisory Board

http://www.nirs.org/climate/background/austriangovtreport607.pdf

Preface

For many years Austria has followed a policy of exit from nuclear power. In the population and across all political parties there is wide-spread consensus that nuclear power is too risky an energy technology and that the use of nuclear energy burdens future generations irresponsibly with nuclear waste.

Meantime climate change has made the need to reduce green house gas emissions apparent. The foreseeable end of cheap oil and – somewhat later – of gas also requires a rethinking of energy policies.

Consequently I am frequently confronted with the question whether in the light of these devel opments a policy critical of nuclear energy was still legitimate, whether nuclear energy was not the lesser evil.
Policy, just like science, sometimes must pause and check its premises. In this spirit I have asked the Austrian Nuclear Advisory Board, the pertinent scientific advisory body of the Austrian

Government, to take up this question. Have advances in science and technology made a revision of the Austrian energy policy regarding nuclear necessary, especially in view of climate change and “Peak Oil�? Has the nuclear option become sustainable?

The assessment has now been completed and the message is an inconvenient one: in spite of nominal safety improvements in nuclear power plants a long list of “near-misses� documents that severe accidents can never be excluded; nuclear installations can only marginally be protected against terrorist attacks; proliferation continues to be a serious problem and a sustainable solution of the radioactive waste problem is not in sight.

But even if one were to overlook all these drawbacks a nuclear power scale-up would come too late to contribute significantly towards the solution of the challenges of climate change and “Peak Oil�. Nuclear power is not even a cheap solution: energy efficiency measures and alternative energies are superior ecologically and economically. Maybe surprising for many: should nuclear be significantly up-scaled fissionable uranium would become scarce within a few decades, just like oil. The nuclear solution then leads to a plutonium economy – and fourth generation reactor concepts point in this direction – with all the associated dangers and significantly higher proliferation risks.

Thus nuclear power is not the convincing solution some claim; rather it is no solution at all. There is no reason to change the Austrian policy. Our focus on energy efficiency and alternative energies is far sighted and the right way to go. We are convinced that in following this path we also contribute to the awareness building that is necessary to achieve a sustainable and more responsible use of energy.

Josef Pröll
Minister for Environment

[halva]

European Union Environmental Commissioner Stavros Dimas has acknowledged that "spraying" is being carried out from aicraft and that the trails citizens are seeing in the sky are not just "normal" aircraft emissions.

Here is his correspondence with our collaborator Grigoris Maltezos:
http://www.press-bank.gr/articles/viewnews.aspx?lc=greek&newsid=0D8C3BF2-E50C-412C-BD0E-8F52369AE22A

"Electoral candidate for the Greek “Ecologists Greens� Mr. Grigoris Maltezos sent a letter to the European Environmental Commissioner Stavros Dimas, asking for a serious and responsible reply on the subject of the provocative activity of those who have decided to carry out aerial spraying with chemicals in Greece, all of Europe and the United States, with all of us featuring as guinea pigs!!" (Comment of Aliki Stefanou)

“The World-Wide Chemical Crime in the Atmosphere has many dimensions to it (political, economic, military) above and beyond the environmental.

It sounds like an unbelievable science-fiction or horror story, and yet the latest revelations confirm that:

“In the context of an American project aircraft are spraying a dangerous mixture of aluminium and barium in the skies of all of Europe. This “artificial� atmosphere, filled with chemicals, is supposed to cool the atmosphere of the earth and normalize the ozone layer.

The result: incalculable damage to health and environment.

Hundreds of thousands of people are monitoring the abovementioned processes. –Five to ten aircraft appear both in rural and in urban areas and fly back and forth at a height of around 6,000 metres. What at first appears to be an ordinary aircraft condensation trail from its emissions, if the spectator should happen to look at it more closely or for longer, leaves him bewildered.

These trails which are formed create a regular pattern and after a few minutes do not disperse but remain suspended. Another arrangement which frequently appears looks like a string of pearls, which can also assume the appearance of drops of liquid. Slowly but surely over a period of 30 to 60 minutes the trails spread out to form a persistent opaque mass of cloud, of a milky, foam-like texture.

What initially appeared to be an aircraft condensation trail has developed into what looks like a layer of fog. Within a space of between two and five hours it has covered the section of the sky that was being criss-crossed by the aircraft with a dense blanket of foggy cloud. .

WE ARE NO LONGER SATISFIED WITH THE ANSWERS BEING RECEIVED BY CITIZENS, PARLIAMENTARIANS AND EUROPARLIAMENTARIANS THAT “WE ARE NOT AWARE….� PEOPLE ARE COMPLAINING!!! AND MANY OF OUR FELLOW-CITIZENS ARE INEXPLICABLY BECOMING SICK WITH “ENVIRONMENTAL� ILLNESSES… LOOK AT THE STATISTICS FOR DOCUMENTED ANSWERS!

I ASK YOU THIS ON BEHALF OF ALL THE CITIZENS OF EUROPE.

WITH RESPECT,

GRIGORIS MALTEZOS

Mr. Maltezos received this reply from Commissioner Dimas:
October 15th, 2007 at 5:10 pm #
In response to: Maltezos

Mr. Maltezos,

Thank you for your question on the spraying from aircraft, which has preoccupied me many times in the past also. At this moment I do not have information on the basis of which it could be concluded that the spraying contains dangerous substances or that there is a problem with public health.

Stavros Dimas

For the Greek text:
http://www.enouranois.gr/epikairotita/apantisidima.htm

[halva]

Dear Friend,

Working Assets has joined with musicians Jackson Browne, Graham
Nash, Ben Harper and Bonnie Raitt on a petition to Congress that
will stop a pending bailout of the nuclear power industry.

The artists have created video to help get the word out about
the issue - which can be viewed at http://www.nukefree.org

Please help us remove a clause from a pending Energy Bill that
could force taxpayers to underwrite construction of an unknown
number of new nuclear power plants.

If you go to the URL below you can check out what is at stake
and send your own message directly to the relevant decision
makers. Take action on this action alert from Working Assets at
http://actforchange.workingassets.com/campaign/stop_nuke_bailout?rk=872EBqs14k37W

[halva]

Pictures taken yesterday driving between Derby and Leeds, UK, and one from space.

http://www.checktheevidence.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=142&Itemid=50

[halva]

UNITED NATIONS – SEPTEMBER 3-5, 2007 – New York 60TH Annual DPI/NGO Conference on Climate Change: “How It IMPACTS Us All�

The 60th Annual Climate Change Conference took place at the United Nations Headquarters in New York from September 5-7, 2007. More than 2,500 representatives from over 80 countries attended the roundtables, panels, and workshops during the 3-Day event. The Conference reviewed the scientific evidence on climate change, including its consequences on indigenous peoples, water security, land use, and the politics of energy. Organized by the United Nations Department of Public Information (DPI) in collaboration with the NGO/DPI Executive Committee, the Conference aimed to facilitate individual actions plans that address the threat of catastrophe posed by climate change and inspire participants to take action to mitigate, and in some cases, reverse the effects of this environmental crisis.

On May 21, 2007, Rosalind Peterson, lifelong Redwood Valley, California resident, was invited by Kiyo Akasaka, Under- Secretary General of the United Nations, to address this Conference during both a workshop, held on September 5th, and a round-table session, held on September 6, 2007, at the United Nations. Rosalind was invited to address this conference due to her research and work in the agriculture field relating to climate change, global dimming, and the affects of man-made clouds and experimental weather modification programs on agriculture.

Rosalind is co-founder and President of the Agriculture Defense Coalition. The ADC was formed in 2006, in partnership with Bridget Conroy, from Phoenix, Arizona, in order to protect agriculture crop production from uncontrolled experimental weather modification programs, atmospheric heating and testing experiments, and geoengineering schemes. Between 1989 and 1993, Rosalind was an Agriculture Technologist working for the Mendocino County Agriculture Department. She also joined the California U.S.D.A. Farm Service Agency in 1992, and became a U.S.D.A. California Certified Agriculture Crop Loss Adjustor between 1995 and 1998. Rosalind has also won several awards and recognition for her extensive efforts to protect drinking water supplies from toxic chemical contamination in Martinez, California. She writes articles for newswithviews.com on many subjects including climate change brought about by experimental weather modification and other experimental atmospheric programs that have negative impacts on agriculture, trees, and drinking water supplies.

The DPI/NGO Conference was the main NGO event of the year at the United Nations. This historic Conference focused on the growing concern associated with climate change and its profound and decisive impact on human well-being. Rosalind’s presentation was on climate change associated with man-made clouds and how these clouds exacerbate climate change / global warming. In addition, she addressed such topics as the negative affect experimental atmospheric programs are having on agriculture crop production and tree health. Other issues addressed included global dimming, produced by persistent jet contrails reducing the amount of sunlight reaching the earth, possibly lowering crop production, and the affect of experimental atmospheric heating and testing program chemicals have on drinking water, air, soil, and tree decline. Website: 60th Annual DPI/NGO Conference - Climate Change

[halva]

The following speech was given by Rosalind Peterson on September 6th, 2007: “Good afternoon Mr. Chairman, Ladies and Gentlemen: It is a pleasure and a great honor to be here with you today. One of the things I would like to say is that we are in a global drumbeat, right at the moment, talking about climate change and global warming. The word “mitigation� without definition of the type of mitigation proposed, is heard in speeches and presentations. Many “mitigation� proposals would place particulates or chemicals into our atmosphere without public,

Congressional, or agriculture oversight of any kind being in place. If you use various mitigation programs will we be trading one problem for another without considering the consequences to our drinking water, soil, trees, or agriculture as a whole? Will we be railroaded into questionable schemes by the drumbeat of fear that states: “We must do something now!�

1) One of the most important things that is negatively affected by climate change is agriculture. Some of what we are experiencing is man-made, in a different way than you may guess. Weather modification programs, experimental ones that use private companies, initiated by the United States government, government agencies or individual States, are now underway. There are more than fifty such weather modification programs in operation across the United States according to NOAA. All of these experimental weather modification programs negatively impact agriculture because they change the micro-climates needed for agriculture to survive. None of these programs, that I know of today (and this information is available to the public), are under any direct public, agriculture, or Congressional oversight, to my knowledge, in the United States.

2
These experimental weather modification programs that negatively impact agriculture are not only found in the United States but around the world. International and U.S. weather modification companies are modifying our weather with programs that cover thousands of square miles. Most of these programs use toxic chemicals or particulates to alter the weather with either ground-based or airborne releases that change or modify our local micro-climates. One of the things I am concerned about and that we need to address, now and in the future, is how these programs are affecting the micro-climates needed for our crops to survive and for pollination to take place. If we artificially change the growing seasons, our pollinators like bees and birds (many now in sharp decline across the United States), many not survive, leaving many flowers, native plants, agricultural and trees crops that are not pollinated. Native grasses, plants, trees, and agricultural losses could be devastated not only in the United States but on a worldwide basis. 2) The need for public, agriculture, Congressional and worldwide oversight. One of the areas of our investigation has been to determine if we can begin to put weather modification programs under congressional, agriculture, and public scrutiny and oversight to determine how they alter agriculture crop production, change climate or produce artificial droughts or floods. When a private company can modify your weather for the personal gain of their respective clients then we have an agricultural and forestland crisis in the making.

3) “Mitigation�

The “mitigation� drumbeat heard everywhere sounds impressive. However, these undefined measures may be detrimental to human health, crop production, soils, and drinking water supplies. It is now necessary to define what is meant by mitigation and to place all of these measures under congressional, agriculture, and pubic oversight. We do not want to place ourselves in the position of making huge mistakes by trading one pollution problem for another more serious problem. The following example reflects a “monetary mitigation� agreement that allows polluters to purchase the ability to pollute more: (SF Chronicle – September 2007 – California makes deal with ConocoPhillips so that it can expand its refinery in the San Francisco Bay Area while paying the State of California $10 Million total so that it can release an additional 500,000 tons of pollutants from their Rodeo, CA, facility. In addition, their proposed expansion agreement would add one million tons a year of carbon dioxide from another facility that currently releases yearly 1.9 millions tons a year. This expansion also increases the amounts of nitrogen oxides, sulfur dioxide, soot and other pollutants that will be emitted when the facility expansion is completed. The Chevron Oil Company wants to build a similar plant expansion in Richmond, CA, and the State of California is looking to make sweet deals for other oil companies. Our California air is to be polluted in the future for a measly one-time sum of $10 Million when oil companies are making record profits? You bet - human, agriculture, and tree health has been sold out! Just the medical bills alone, for increased human health costs, will be astronomical.

4) Geoengineering Schemes

Geoengineering schemes, many developed to place chemicals, salt or other particulates into our atmosphere to control global warming, are waiting in the wings to be implemented or have already been implemented. The release of chemicals or particulates, like highly polluting sulfur, are now being discussed at NASA Ames (November 2006 Geoengineering Meetings), and by many scientists worldwide waiting in the wings for funding. These chemicals and particulates are being proposed so that the amount of direct sunlight reaching the earth is reduced in order to cool the planet. What is not being discussed, for example, is that California in 2006, took highly polluting sulfur out of diesel fuel due to asthma and other environmental problems. Now there are proposals to place sulfur back into our atmosphere to reduce global warming. Where is the discussion about environmental, agriculture, and human health declines from this proposal?

What about public and congressional oversight of these proposed programs? No public oversight, hearings or regulations are being proposed that would protect agriculture or public heath. The actions of placing chemicals into our atmosphere is certainly going to have negative effects on crop production and tree health. And if you place in our skies chemicals to reduce the amount of sunlight reaching the earth, you are going to reduce the photosynthesis needed for crop production. In order to produce crops and for plants and trees to grow and
thrive they need direct sunlight. A recent corn crop study at the University of Illinois shows that increased cloud cover reduces corn crop production while direct sunlight increases production. Photosynthesis is the process whe re plants and trees gain the energy to grow and produce crops. If we “mitigate� to reduce the amount of sunlight reaching the earth, negatively affecting crop production not only in the United States but worldwide, we could put the world in a food shortage crisis. Two experiments are now believed to be reducing crop
production in the United States: 1) Micro-climate shifts caused by experimental weather modification programs and, 2) a lack of photosynthesis cause by persistent jet contrails that produce (according to NASA), man-made clouds that change our climate. (Solar voltaic panels are beginning to produce less power due to these experiments.)

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5) Man-made Clouds
NASA noted in an October 2005 newsletter, and from other study results, notes that increasingly persistent contrails are turning into man-made clouds that are “…trapping warmth in the atmosphere and exacerbating global warming…� NASA goes on to note that: “…Any increase in global cloud cover will contribute to long-term changes in Earth’s climate.

Likewise, any change in Earth’s climate may have effects on natural resources…�
(The Power Point Presentation begins at this point in Rosalind’s presentation.) Jets leaving persistent jet contrails are changing our climate to the degree that one jet leaving a persistent jet contrail has the following affect according to NASA’s Patrick Minnis (February 2007): “…We had found that (jet) contrails were producing much more cloud cover than we ever thought they did. This one particular aircraft produced a contrail that covered an area of four thousand square kilometers and lingered for six hours. But we also found that there were contrails covering much larger areas and lasting more than twenty hours…� Dr. Wayne Evans, Atmospheric Scientist: “…You see the two contrails forming…cirrus clouds… While most natural clouds actually reflect more sunlight back into space than they supply infrared heat energy towards the earth. However, cirrus clouds are different. They actually radiate more heat energy than they reflect solar energy back into space. Therefore, cirrus clouds contribute to global warming…� The picture up on the screen shows just one jet leaving a persistent jet contrail – that one trail can expand to cover an area of four thousand square kilometers and linger for more than twenty hours. This phenomenon was unheard of in the early fifties, sixties and seventies. It was not until the late 1980s that there was a huge change and people began to see the first persistent jet contrails that persist like we see today on a massive scale.

NASA studies show that climate change and global warming problems could be attributed to these types of persistent jet contrails and that jets cause them to form in our once clear blue skies. One of the issues needed to be addressed as we go forward is: “HOW DO YOU LIKE YOUR SKIES…NATURAL OR MAN-MADE?� And right now we are making manmade clouds like the ones you see up on the screen. And these man-made clouds are trapping warmth in our atmosphere. Isn’t it time that all of us addressed this global warming issue? The climate change produced by the jets pictured…not all jets…mostly non-commercial jets, can be observed in our skies and by weathermen who can’t predict the weather very well because they refuse to put these man-made formations in their weather prediction models. These man-made clouds trap warmth in our atmosphere and increase our humidity. This allows for diseases, flu, molds, mildews, fungus, viruses, and pests to proliferate. These pictures of man-made clouds were taken in Lake, Mendocino, Contra Costa, Sonoma and other California counties, to show what man-made skies look like now. They represent thousands of similar pictures taken worldwide the show persistent jet contrails turning into white haze and man-made clouds. NASA, NOAA, and other U.S. government agencies know that these unusual clouds are man-made and not “normal� cloud formations. No one is asking what happens to agriculture and human health from man-made reductions of the amount of direct sunlight hitting the earth because it is blocked by man-made clouds. Pictured on the screen is one example of what scientists call “global dimming� a process that reduces direct sunlight from reaching the earth. Is this why rickets, a bone disease, has been increasing in children across the United States (not seen in the U.S. since children were freed from working in American coal mines)? The pictures that you see on this screen look odd, unlike historical cloud formations that were observed and photographed prior to the late 1980s, and back through U.S. history. We have time-lapse photographs and hundreds of hours of videotapes showing the formation of these man-made clouds from thin, spindly contrails being left by unmarked jets. All of you here today can begin to look up and observe this process for yourselves.

6) Chemical Atmospheric Heating and Testing Programs

There are also other experiments taking place in our atmosphere. The colors in this man-made cloud photograph in Mendocino County, CA, shows just one of many experiments. These colors represent a chemical reaction produced by experiments conducted by NASA and the United States Air Force. They are sending up canisters loaded with toxic chemicals designed to explode when superheated in order to conduct atmospheric and ionosphere experimental tests.

Some persistent jet contrails and man-made clouds, I believe, allow scientists to observe the results of these tests from either satellites or ground-based observation platforms. Without man-made clouds these tests could not be observed, as the chemicals would not produce a visible marker.

The NASA / U.S. Air Force CRESS 1990 Press Kit http://www.flyaria.com/document/html/mission/crres/cr.htm
outlines an atmospheric NASA testing program (linked to H.A.A.R.P. and the U.S. Air Force, that could produce

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the Vibrant Spectrums (auroras), referenced above, as shown in my poster pictures. In this program canisters are loaded with chemicals and superheated at different atmospheric levels. These canisters contain the following chemicals that could be polluting our air and are showing up with unusual spikes in drinking water supplies in across California (California State Department of Health, Drinking Water Division Water Test Results- Public Records, Sacramento, California), and Arizona: Aluminum, Barium, Strontium, Lithium, Calcium, SF6-Sulfur hexafluoride Note that SF6 is a very potent, toxic gas. It has the energy-trapping potential of 25,000 times that of Carbon Dioxide. The EPA has taken action to restrict release of this dangerous greenhouse gas and yet it is being used in atmospheric testing programs. Barium Releases March 22, 1976 http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF0/019.html
Lithium Red Sky April 16, 1979 – Alaska Science Forum: www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF3/312.html

Alaska’s Space Pyrotechnics – Alaska Science Forum – Barium February 18, 1985
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/703.html
Could the H.A.A.R.P. Project in Alaska, NOAA, DOE, NASA, Air Force, Department of Defense, etc., be the reason for climate changes that have been escalating since the late 1980s, when the funds and technology allowed for the escalation of atmospheric heating and testing programs like NASA’s TMA Night Cloud tests using trimethylaluminum or the advanced testing of military weapons systems like star wars? NASA’s Night Clouds Atmospheric Testing Program:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/20jun_TMAclouds.htm

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7) The Agriculture & Tree Connection

The reason that many are so concerned about protecting agriculture from these programs is because we depend totally on agriculture for the food we all eat. None of these experiments, that I know of, have any public, agriculture or congressional oversight. Our drinking water, trees, and soils have been tested at various times and show unusual spikes of many of these experimental chemicals. The use of aluminum in atmospheric testing programs is a major problem with regard to both soil and drinking water pollution. With increasingly acidic rains, aluminum in the soil is released for uptake by tree roots. Once aluminum is in the root system the tree will die because it can no longer absorb the nutrients and water needed to survive. The tree
looks like it is dying of drought even though there is sufficient water for the tree to survive. The trees become stressed at this point and pests then attack these trees as they die creating a huge fire hazard. Many of our tree and plant communities are dying or in sharp decline in Mendocino, Lake, Sonoma, Shasta, Tahoe, and the Sierra Mountains. Many oak trees (without Sudden Oak Death Syndrome), redwoods, Douglas fir, agriculture crop trees, and plants are impacted by man-made clouds and atmospheric chemical programs. Molds, mildews, fungus, viruses and pests are on the rise in many areas of the United States. When persistent jet
contrails and man-made clouds raise night temperatures, and humidity, this reduces the number of freezing fruit set hours needed for crop production and to control pest proliferation.

Our Skies – no longer crystal clear and deep blue The skies that you see in these pictures depict man-made clouds and white haze. When traveling on Delta Airlines across the United States from California to New York on September 4th, 2007, we were struck by the fact that we were flying through miles of persistent jet contrails and white haze that lasted the entire five-hour trip. There were few real clouds and the skies looked exactly like the pictures on this screen.

9) 1999 EPA Subsonic Jet Fuel Emissions Report

One of the items we really need to examine is jet fuel emissions which contaminate our air in the same way as automobile exhaust. Scientific studies in the 1970s also found that jets release nitric acid which depletes beneficial atmospheric ozone. Please note some of the human health and agriculture effects listed on the screen caused by jet fuel emissions.

10) “Mitigation�
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Important issues that should be closely examined are the problems we are creating for ourselves through government and private atmospheric heating and testing programs, experimental weather modification, jet fuel emissions, and persistent jet contrails that create climate change, with the idea of reducing or eliminating these programs. We can improve human health through the elimination of these programs and we can protect our trees, agriculture crop production, and drinking water supplies from chemical contamination. If we only consider “mitigation� that adds more pollution, chemicals, and particulates to our atmosphere then we are doomed to failure. Reduction of pollutants is the only answer. The geoengineering programs that are now being promoted are only going to release more toxic chemicals and particulates into our atmosphere in the hope that they will, in the short term mitigate climate change. What they will do instead is create a toxic pea soup of chemicals, with unknown, and uncontrollable synergistic effects, that could destroy our ability to produce crops and grow trees. The human costs will be astronomical as rickets, asthma and other respiratory diseases and cancers increase form the use of particulates and toxic chemicals. Just examine the increase in these incidents since the late 1980s when we started to experiment with atmospheric programs on a grand scale.

11) The EPA 1970’s Model

It would be easier to reduce the pollutants by following the early U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) model. This agency was created to clean up our air, water, rivers, and streams, through strict reductions in all types of emissions, reducing pollution at its source, whether cars, trucks, factories, chemical plants, etc. This model worked in the past and can work again. (In the last few years the EPA has been under mined and is not working as this agency has come under corporate polluter control.) Now there is only talk of adding toxic chemicals and particulates to our atmosphere for a so-called short-term gain under the heading of “mitigation�. These geoengineering experiments represent an unknown, but the money and the will to use them are increasing with the climate change drumbeat. We must reduce pollution not add to it.

12) Tree Death & Fire Hazards

Our trees, across the United States are dying and in decline in many areas. In Northern California, Lake, Mendocino, Shasta and Sonoma Counties the evidence is almost everywhere. We have traveled to other states and counties and found the same declines…it is a decline we cannot afford. Since the late 1980s forest fires have burned hotter and higher than ever before…and one reason is the use of flammable and toxic atmospheric chemicals which cause increased tree decline and also contaminate our soils and air.

13) Microbes

One of the goals that we need to work toward is reducing pollution at the source not adding more pollutants to mix with what we are all producing at this time. Allan Buckmann, recently retired from the California State Department of Fish & Game and President of Microbe Tech, an invited guest speaker at a U.N. Workshop yesterday, spoke eloquently on the benefits of using microbes to clean up pollution and to also maintain the heath of our planet. We do have at our disposal the technologies and the wherewithal to make our planet healthier for all. We just need the will to use them instead of using “chemical solutions�.

14) “The solutions are in our hands today.�

If we decide to reduce pollution at it sources through regulations then we can make faster progress. If we choose the alternative solutions being proposed as “mitigation� measures then progress will be slow, unproven, and uncontrolled as the chemical and particulate mixtures will exacerbate a deterioration in human and agriculture health. These geoengineering programs are waiting in the wings to be used…thousands of them here and around the world…none with any agriculture, congressional, or public oversight. It is time to look at different solutions that are already here and it is time to look-up at our skies and see that some of these programs are already producing climate change and agriculture decline. And what damage are these ongoing
experiments doing to the fragile cocoon that protects our planet and makes life possible here? We do know that the atmospheric chemicals are showing up in our drinking water (California, Arizona and other states), tree ring samples, and soils. (The U.S. Air Force is releasing, according to their own records, 500 tons of aluminum-coated fiberglass (Chaff), worldwide each year, without notifying the public of the health effects of their actions.) In closing I would like to say that these atmospheric and weather modification programs are already negatively impairing crop production and tree health in the United States. We are seeing it in ever higher UV Radiation readings (burning of the tips of trees and grapevines), increased molds, mildews and fungus, and the proliferation of pests.

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We hope that all of you, before jumping on the “mitigation� bandwagon now being promoted and heavily marketed, under “Cap & Trade Money Market Schemes�, will closely examine these proposed forms of mitigation before being stampeded into using them. Just who will they benefit? When a California corporation called Planktos (Summer or Fall 2007 Program), decides to create an artificial algae bloom in the Galapagos Islands Pacific by dusting the Pacific Ocean with iron dust, there is no worldwide oversight. They can harm marine life without any consequences. Why? So that they can say they are benefiting the environment and then
sell pollution “credits� to corporations who want to continue to pollute more. Corporations are going to spring up from nowhere in order to buy tree areas or use other polluting schemes in order to make money on the stock market by selling these so-called credits on the stock market to polluters. These corporate schemes are just designed to allow polluters to keep polluting when the only solutions is to reduce the pollution at it sources. Ladies and Gentlemen, this is something we must all consider now and in the immediate future. When we consider the Cap & Trade solutions or many “mitigation measures� we must know that reducing pollution is the ultimate goal. We must examine the consequences of our actions and research these suspect geoengineering plans. We have other options like using microbes. We have the technology and the ability now to reduce pollution…the question is do we have the will to move in that direction and to change our behavior? Thank you for your interest in these issues.

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Q&A Questions
1) How do wars affect climate change?
I do believe that jets flying everywhere, not only over Iraq but other countries, contribute to climate change and add pollution to our atmosphere. The use of chemicals and explosives are adding to water, air, and soil contamination which impairs crop production and the quality of our air. War is a serious problem. The amount of money spent on wars impairs our ability to fund the EPA and other programs that would reduce pollution or conduct the research needed to advance such technologies. War funding ties up technology and funding that could benefit all of us. One expensive bomb destroys everything…leaving nothing behind but damage, ruin, injury, pain, and death from “Shock & Awe�…it is the legacy that war leaves all of us.

2) Are we trading one pollution problem with another when we suggest some forms of mitigation?

We have many technologies that have already been invented and are available to the public. We can use natural microbes to clean up pollution sour ces and restore our soils to a normal balance. We cannot, out of fear, use mitigation strategies which trade one pollution problem for another. The is a bill in the California legislature that would ban the use and sale of all incandescent light bulbs in favor of the use of fluorescent light bulbs. Fluorescent light bulbs contain mercury and have inadequate market labels to let people know of the danger of mercury pollution from this source or how to properly recycle them at HAZMAT sites. If you break a mercury bulb your house, office or room it becomes a toxic HAZMAT site, which needs special cleaning. If you use your vacuum cleaner or your broom to clean up the site it then must be sent to a toxic disposal site. Many people don’t know that there are light fixtures that fluorescent bulbs can’t be used in or they may explode. And most people throw them in the regular waste stream without any precautions where they will easily break and contaminate
drinking water sources, rivers, and streams. Mercury poisoning goes up the food chain from water to fish and birds. Is California and the rest of our nation trading one pollution problem for another by considering passage of this bill? 3) How is agriculture affected by urban sprawl and what can be done about it? In Sacramento, California, miles of prime producing agricultural land is being turned into thousands of one-story tract homes; paved over with roads and buildings. Economical public rail transportation is not being put into place to move thousands of people to work and shopping malls placing more demands on the construction of more highways while
clogging streets and roads…more time spent running automobile engines while sitting in long lines…more pollution. We must change the practice of paving over prime agriculture lands for housing tracts not only in Sacramento but also in Mendocino and other counties and states. These zoning changes are being railroaded through our local governments without agriculture being taken into consideration and how these tracts will negatively impact climate change and global warming while reducing the land available for crop production. Solar power and adequate water for these new housing tracts is not being considered by local and state planners nor is the implementation of high speed rail transportation. We 7 need to build not only higher in density but also in places where prime agriculture land will not be paved over, never to be
used for agriculture again. All the paving and roads just exacerbates climate change and global warming. These actions are not a solution to our climate or food problems.

4) Should college students be required to plant eleven trees in order to graduate?

Planting native trees is important. But we also have to examine why our trees are dying or in decline across the United States…even newly planted trees. 83% of the trees and plants in the Sierra Nevada region are dying along with the Douglas fir in many parts of Alaska, Nevada, Connecticut, and California. No money is being spent to find out why they are dying. California Senator Dianne Feinstein proposed cutting down thousands of dead trees in the Lake Tahoe area without spending a dime to find out why they were dying in 2006. And yes, it is important to plant trees, however it matters what type of trees we plant and how we maintain them after planting. In closing, I would like to thank you for inviting me to speak at this United Nations Conference on Climate Change. Many technologies can now be used, like microbes, in developing nations. Americans use a lot of the resources of developing countries. And we need to reduce our impact on these countries. Water is going to be a more and more important issue
in the future. Do not let corporations (like Coca Cola), purchase your local water districts or supply sources. If you do the price you will pay in the future will be astronomical.
Agriculture is extremely important worldwide as well as preserving our trees. And to allow one country to modify its weather, changing the weather in another country, is something we all need to address. I hope that all countries become aware of the programs discussed today and join together to say “no� to some of them, like the weaponization of space, and the chemicals used in those programs. We can reduce our pollutants so that we make life and human health much better.

A special thank you the United Nations and to a few of the sponsors: The Light Millennium, Campaign for the Earth, Ribbon International, Peace Action, Peace Caucus, and the Turkish Cultural Center, New York. For more information on these and other topics: Website: californiaskywatch.com Many people spoke on the issue of climate change at this conference. United Nations Website on Climate Change.

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How to Cool the Globe
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/24/opinion/24caldiera.html?ex=1193889600&en=cfa1940caebd3201&ei=5070&emc=eta1

By KEN CALDEIRA
Published: October 24, 2007
DESPITE growing interest in clean energy technology, it looks as if we are not going to reduce emissions of carbon dioxide anytime soon. The amount in the atmosphere today exceeds the most pessimistic forecasts made just a few years ago, and it is increasing faster than anybody had foreseen.

Even if we could stop adding to greenhouse gases tomorrow, the earth would continue warming for decades — and remain hot for centuries. We would still face the threat of water from melting glaciers lapping at our doorsteps.

What can be done? One idea is to counteract warming by tossing small particles into the stratosphere (above where jets fly). This strategy may sound far-fetched, but it has the potential to cool the earth within months.

Mount Pinatubo, a volcano in the Philippines that erupted in 1991, showed how it works. The eruption resulted in sulfate particles in the stratosphere that reflected the sun’s rays back to space, and as a consequence the earth briefly cooled.

If we could pour a five-gallon bucket’s worth of sulfate particles per second into the stratosphere, it might be enough to keep the earth from warming for 50 years. Tossing twice as much up there could protect us into the next century.

A 1992 report from the National Academy of Sciences suggests that naval artillery, rockets and aircraft exhaust could all be used to send the particles up. The least expensive option might be to use a fire hose suspended from a series of balloons. Scientists have yet to analyze the engineering involved, but the hurdles appear surmountable.

Seeding the stratosphere might not work perfectly. But it would be cheap and easy enough and is worth investigating.

This is not to say that we should give up trying to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Ninety-nine percent of the $3 billion federal Climate Change Technology Program should still go toward developing climate-friendly energy systems. But 1 percent of that money could be put toward working out geoengineered climate fixes like sulfate particles in the atmosphere, and developing the understanding we need to ensure that they wouldn’t just make matters worse.

Think of it as an insurance policy, a backup plan for climate change.

Which is the more environmentally sensitive thing to do: let the Greenland ice sheet collapse and polar bears become extinct, or throw a little sulfate in the stratosphere? The second option is at least worth looking into.

Ken Caldeira is a scientist at the Carnegie Institution’s department of global ecology.

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The German local Green parliamentarian Johannes Remmel, who spoke on German television on the subject of chemtrails, has agreed to grant an hour-long interview to the Greek-German journalist Menandros Michaelidis and Menandros for his part has agreed to take questions on behalf of the Enouranois website and put them to Johannes Remmel.

Anyone want to ask any questions?

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Intense chemtrailing in many parts of Greece today
http://enouranois.blogspot.com/

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Egypt launches nuclear power programme

Mubarak says Egypt’s nuclear programme to be developed in cooperation with IAEA.

CAIRO - President Hosni Mubarak said on Monday that Egypt is to build several nuclear power stations, relaunching a nuclear programme frozen more than 20 years ago.

Mubarak said during the inauguration of a Cairo power station that a decree would be issued in a few days' time to establish a higher council for the peaceful use of nuclear energy, the official MENA news agency reported.

Mubarak said the programme will be developed in cooperation with the United Nations' International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) "within a framework of transparency and respect of commitments to the nuclear non-proliferation system."

Egypt initiated a nuclear energy programme in the 1970s but abandoned it in 1986 after the Chernobyl nuclear catastrophe. Mubarak's regime recently outlined plans to revive it.

"Egypt will go through with the nuclear energy project in the belief that energy security is a basic element in building the future of the homeland and part and parcel of Egypt's national security system," Mubarak said.

The 79-year-old president did not say which countries would cooperate in the construction of the power stations, nor how many were planned, but last year he discussed nuclear cooperation during visits to Russia and China.

In November last year, Mubarak stressed that Egypt did not need anyone's permission to develop nuclear energy, having signed the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

Egypt announced last year that it would begin studying the possibility of building a nuclear power station by 2020.

Egyptian Electriciy Miniser Hassan Younes said at the time that Egypt wanted to build a 1,000-megawatt nuclear plant at Dabaa on the Mediterranean coast to the east of Alexandria.

He said that the plant would cost 1.5 billion dollars (1.17 billion euros) and would require foreign investment.

Egypt has reassured the international community that it will not import enriched uranium.

Analysts have argued that a nuclear alliance between Egypt and China -- and possibly including Russia -- could rile the United States, Egypt's traditional ally.

Egypt recently stepped up its criticism of what it says are the double standards of the international community after European Union countries refused to back Cairo's call for a nuclear weapons-free Middle East.

Egypt and Syria in September urged the IAEA to pass a resolution condemning Israel for possessing nuclear weapons. Israel is widely regarded as the Middle East's sole if undeclared nuclear power.

Egypt and other Muslim countries see Israel as the main nuclear threat in the region.

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The U.S. government routinely conducts experiments on weather modification

by Chris Handy

Global Research, October 21, 2007
Daily Texan, University of Texas via U Wire - 2007-07-30

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7139


The U.S. government routinely conducts experiments on weather modification, and has been doing so for at least half a century. Previously classified under such names as "Project Cirrus" (1947) and "Project Popeye" (1966), weather modification is no longer a secret practice. In fact, a bill (S517) was sponsored in 2005 by Texas Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson, a Republican, "to establish the Weather Modification Operations and Research Board, and for other purposes." This bill did not become law. Yet, there is reason to believe that various government institutions are carrying out numerous legal and illegal weather experiments without informing the public.

This isn't just a suspicion of the United States. The Chinese government announced in April the creation of the first-ever artificial snowfall over the city of Nagqu in Tibet. The event was only one in a series of Chinese weather modification experiments that have been going on for years. China, in fact, now conducts more cloud seeding projects than any other nation.

Cloud seeding through the use of silver iodide was discovered as a viable way to make rain clouds in 1946. In 1947, the U.S. military attempted to use this method to seed a hurricane, which later hit the Georgia coast near Savannah. In the mid-1960s, similar techniques were used in hopes of muddying the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Vietnam. The idea was to slow enemy troop movements through the introduction of inclement weather, and conversely to prevent foul weather over allies.

But cloud seeding with silver iodide is an archaic technique compared with newer advances in nanotechnology and other methods for weather monitoring and control. Microelectric Mechanical Sensors (MEMS) and the newer Global Environmental MEMS Sensors (GEMS), are extremely tiny machines used to monitor weather patterns.

No larger than dust particles, the sensors are designed to be sent up inside hurricanes and other weather systems in large numbers, reporting back data as they literally become a part of those systems. This data can later be used to improve weather forecasting and potentially control the weather through a better understanding of the complex mathematics involved in such systems. One goal is to "steer" these systems, sending them to specific targets and increasing or decreasing their size.

Another extremely controversial participant in the weather modification game is the infamous HAARP antenna grid in Gakona, Alaska. HAARP, the High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program, is an enormous array of antennas inspired by the free energy experiments of 19th-century electrical playboy Nikola Tesla. Commencing sometime around 1990, HAARP was only recently declassified, and much of the current research there is said to take place in secret.

HAARP fires massive amounts of energy into the ionosphere, heating and distorting a section up to 30 miles in diameter. There are various strange and frightening claims made about the project. It may be capable of shifting the position of the jetstream, which could impact global weather in ways that we still do not understand well. Other claims about HAARP, such as that it is part of a massive government mind-control operation or that it forms the main component of a giant death ray, are difficult to verify. But these theories are not as implausible as one might think.

Even in the face of mountains of evidence, many people still believe that weather modification of any kind is only a fantasy. People must be aware that these technologies have been around for a long time, are indeed being used and have great potential for dangerous and unethical uses. Our planet's weather is part of a single interconnected system and any change to it, whether natural or not, affects every other element of that system. The organizations most interested in modifying this system appear to be applying their theories in incredibly irresponsible ways.

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A You-Tube video on chemtrailing over Athens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsNcuA4Sb_M

It makes clever use of a song popular during the time of the 1967-74 military junta and much-used in the post-dictatorship years at conservative democratic political rallies. "Be patient and the sky will become blue again."
(Kanete ypomoni kai o ouranos tha ginei galanos).

It asks among much else "If this phenomenon is important enough to concern parliamentarians, why isn't it important enough to concern the media?"

[halva]

The three-hour programme on chemtrails by Kostas Kardavelas screened recently on the mainstream ALTER channel in Greece. Most key collaborators of the Enouranois website including the present writer are featured. The programme is in Greek without subtitles. There are however extensive English-language sections with Greek subtitles.

http://www.enouranois.gr/video/hardevelasmikro.wmv

[halva]

8th DECEMBER – DAY OF ACTION

8th December is the Global Day of Action on Climate Change. In Athens the Panattic Network of Urban Movements and Active Citizens is organizing a demonstration in Syntagma Square. Similar functions should be organized everywhere in Greece, as is occurring abroad. Because in Athens supporters of the ENOURANOIS website are among the organizers there is hope that for the first time the self-evident message will be heard that THERE CANNOT BE DISCUSSION OF CLIMATE CHANGE WITHOUT DISCUSSION OF THE AERIAL SPRAYING, which according to indications from scientific sources may partly comprise a supposed ‘answer’ to the phenomenon of climate change.

The veil of silence which covers this spraying is probably due not only to its illegality but also to the fact that it is impossible to legalize, given the inability of governments to persuade public opinion that deliberate pollution could be a ‘solution’ to any problem.

Because governments are clearly unable to confront their own citizens honestly and with self-respect, they resort to idiot slyness and every kind of trickery. Behind the scenes the ‘sceptic’ lobby still has the upper hand. MANY TIMES WE SEE THE SAME PEOPLE PLAYING THE ‘SCEPTIC’ IN RELATION TO THE SERIOUSNESS AND EVEN THE REALITY OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND ASSERTING THAT IF THERE WERE (OR SHOULD BE IN FUTURE) A PROBLEM OF CLIMATE CHANGE, ‘GEOENGINEERING’ (i.e. spraying with toxic aerosols) WOULD BE THE MOST SUITABLE AND MOST ECONOMICALLY VIABLE SOLUTION..
(see Edward Teller’s ‘Sunscreen for Planet Earth’):
http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/3522851.html)

Unfortunately the existing political system and the people who serve it are not in a position to get us out of this mesh of contradictions. Even a politician with an otherwise good reputation on environmental issues, European Union Environmental Commissioner Stavros Dimas, is a hostage of the overall situation. He is obliged to lie.

The solution is in the hands of the citizens. We must emphatically DEMAND FULL TRANSPARENCY ON THE SUBJECT OF ‘GEOENGINEERING’ PROGRAMMES, INCLUDING THE AERIAL SPRAYING. If governments refuse to give it to us we will secure it ourselves, without asking permission.

Footnote: Because it is probable that the aerial spraying is also serving military objectives it is unacceptable that the subject continues to be ignored by the anti-war movements.

http://www.enouranois.gr

[halva]

Local news station confirms barium in chemtrails

http://amsam.org/2007/11/local-news-station-confirms-barium-in.html

[kola]

Local news station confirms barium in chemtrails

http://amsam.org/2007/11/local-news-station-confirms-barium-in.html


nice find wayne!

kola

[Lou]

Yes, it was a good find Wayne, you gave 'socrates' the means to post something credible at CTC but the Ass Hole blew it by trying to defend his little fantasy character "may41970" in the same post_what a STUPID jerk.:rolleyes:

( Not you_Him.)

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/thread12713.html?sid=d1ad29f1f236f3b9aa4c076df63ad 857

[kola]

Lou, I read jeffyboys comments and yours...He is a real fuckin basketcase.

I would almost bet any more coverage on chems from that news station will be halted. That sux.

Kola

[Lou]

Lou, I read jeffyboys comments and yours...He is a real fuckin basketcase.

I would almost bet any more coverage on chems from that news station will be halted. That sux.

Kola

Yeah, he's a friggen piece of work alright and the worst Fu*king thing that has ever happen to the Chemtrail movement for sure, I just put up some more at that thread at CTC, quotes from his own mouth about CTC, Thermit / Mark and a lot of the other posters there, I hope it gets his ass booted once and forever from CTC, that sick little bastard is nothing but posion at any site_period.

The SOB could not even give Wayne credit for finding the link without cutting him down_what a stinking PUKE he is.:rolleyes:

[halva]

I didn't find the U-Tube video. It was my collaborator here Grigoris Maltezos. I might say that the solidarity and the tolerance of different viewpoints that exists so far in small but growing movement of chemtrails awareness in Greece (you can see some sign of it in the Kostas Kardavelas programme - sorry, it's mostly in Greek)
http://www.enouranois.gr/video/hardavelasmikro.wmv

is something that it would be good to see being able to develop in the USA. I don't know if the answer is marginalise and expel Socrates/Jeff Reynolds. Is it not possible for he himself to grasp that nothing is to be gained from inventing fantasy characters and arguing with everybody for the sake of arguing.

His confession that he thought that "Chem 11" might be "the leader" of the chemtrails movement says it all. It's no use waiting for "a leader" to come along to slap you into shape and force you to cut the crap. If Socrates cannot pretend to be "the leader" himself (which he cannot) then how about making more of an attempt to be a good team player and show more respect for people who share with him the same basic goals of bringing transparency to the "chemtrails" scene, and getting whatever needs to be stopped stopped.

[halva]

Here is another You Tube video worth seeing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBjDSNWiuKQ
Wake up!!!! Our eyes do not deceive us.
There is something very wrong in our skies!!!!

[Lou]

I didn't find the U-Tube video. It was my collaborator here Grigoris Maltezos. I might say that the solidarity and the tolerance of different viewpoints that exists so far in small but growing movement of chemtrails awareness in Greece (you can see some sign of it in the Kostas Kardavelas programme - sorry, it's mostly in Greek)
http://www.enouranois.gr/video/hardavelasmikro.wmv

is something that it would be good to see being able to develop in the USA. I don't know if the answer is marginalise and expel Socrates/Jeff Reynolds. Is it not possible for he himself to grasp that nothing is to be gained from inventing fantasy characters and arguing with everybody for the sake of arguing.

His confession that he thought that "Chem 11" might be "the leader" of the chemtrails movement says it all. It's no use waiting for "a leader" to come along to slap you into shape and force you to cut the crap. If Socrates cannot pretend to be "the leader" himself (which he cannot) then how about making more of an attempt to be a good team player and show more respect for people who share with him the same basic goals of bringing transparency to the "chemtrails" scene, and getting whatever needs to be stopped stopped.

I can't think about that MF, SOB 'socrates / Jeffie Boy', :rolleyes: he is a useless piece of dog crap that has no redeeming qualities what so ever, all he dose is lie, twist and distort the facts to suit his own selfserving egotistical driven agenda just like the other "Reynolds" does, they are two of a kind and they are both misfits that have a social cog missing, there just a couple of useless muckrakers who only generate a hostile environment with there antagonistic, ignorant BS and I've come to understand that is all that they are capable of_period.

Neither of them deserve a 2nd, 3rd,4th,5th, etc, etc, chance to act like a normal human being because that would be expecting them to become normal and there just not, these two FREAKS have serious issues going on with there brain chemistry because no one "Normal" acts like these two A-Holes do.

Enough of that crap.

This is a link to (CAP) "The Canadian Action Party" and a rather large PDF file of information put together by 'Shawn Mann' of Alberta, Canada titled,....

"Illegal Aerosol Spraying Operations and Chem-Trail Phenomenon Over Western Canadian Skies."

http://canadianactionparty.ca/cgi/page.cgi?aid=904&_id=128&zine=show

It is presented in a very well done manner and it chronicles the Chemtrail Spraying Activity that has been taking place over Western Canada, when looking at the photos and reading the accounts of spraying it mirrors exactly what we have been observing throughout the U.S. and Europe with regard to the spraying as well.

Remember how random it use to be for normal contrails to form and how only occasionally we might see a Persistent Spreading Contrail if the conditions where just right, now we can watch as these so called "Persistent Spreading Contrails" are "MADE" regularly and with the precision of a well planned military operation. (Military = planning = implementation = execution, etc.)

If you have the time to go through this "CAP" PDF file it is most interesting and another wake up call to those still asleep that there is far more to those strange lines in the sky than them just being normal contrails, who believes that "normal contrails" excuse anymore when the spraying is so blatant?

[halva]

Thanks for this Lou. It also seems to have fired the imagination of Maltezos, who has sent it out to his network.

[Lou]

Thanks for this Lou. It also seems to have fired the imagination of Maltezos, who has sent it out to his network.

Your welcome Wayne, BTW, that information comes via our good friend Brian Holmes / http://www.holmestead.ca/ and I'm gust glad that I can pass it along.

Our politicians are just to politically correct to touch the Chemtrail Spraying issue anytime let alone in this run up to a presidential election, It's obviously far more important for them to make champagne promises in stump speeches and pose for the photo ops than confront the very real issue of people that our atmosphere is being pumped full of unknown aerosolized materials.

Perhaps you will have better luck with your politicians that we have had to date in getting ours to address this subject.

[halva]

The Canadian Action Party doesn't do well in the polls. But just the fact that a Canadian political party will touch the subject is enough to make an impression here in Greece. Maltezos is also a politician in a small Greek political party, the Ecologists-Greens, who are however the Greek branch of the European Greens. There was a huge increase in their vote in the last Greek general elections, though they have not made it back into the parliament (their predecessor party had a parliamentarian in the early 90s).

But Maltezos' posting out of this info on chemtrails from Canada has been enough to stir one of the leadership of his party into action. There is now a more or less official statement on chemtrails from the Greek Greens. I will post the translation shortly.

[halva]

Here is a statement on chemtrails by Nikos Chrysogelos
http://www.nafpaktia.com/images/746.jpg
of the Greek Ecogreens
http://www.ecogreens.gr/gr/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=32

I see that a conspiracy-type interpretation of pollution problems is being propagated which is not connected to reality and probably based on ignorance of basic parameters of the movement of pollutants. The existence of a project which has been called “geoengineering” cannot be generalized, nor can linking all the pollution of the planet to a project which in any case if it were implemented or has been implemented would be implemented on a very limited scale. It seems exactly like the rumour that ecologists are releasing snakes, or lately – as we hear – also fleas! And everyone is sure that they have seen ecologists doing such things.

Few go to the trouble of wondering if any such thing is feasible from the viewpoint of cost (astronomical expenses for breeding and releasing millions of snakes since everyone is absolutely certain that such a thing is real and not myth-making), result (how many people and how many cars must be on the move in the country as a whole since even in the smallest village everyone is sure that they have seen someone releasing snakes) and breeding facilities (where on earth could all these millions of snakes be bred?)…..

Just think, then, that everyone sees “suspicious aircraft”, sees “smoke coming from the engines of aircraft”, sees analyses that indicate entire regions are being polluted. What could be….simpler than to believe that there is an international conspiracy that is spreading pollutants over the entire planet? In this way, I think, people’s interest is distracted from the real problem of pollution (to deal with that we will have to take measures, change policies) to a supposed conspiracy (whereby we are not required to change much but simply denounce). In Greece, for example, we have, according to a World Health Organization (WHO) report, more than 2,500 deaths annually from particle pollution which is linked to contamination from bad practices, not to bombardment with chemicals from unknown aircraft. There are more than 3,000,000 deaths annually from atmospheric pollution, a number which is rapidly increasing (and because of the burgeoning economic growth in China – look at the figures for pollution in Beijing, the pollution clouds in Asia). It is not difficult to find victims of lung cancer (which is linked directly to atmospheric pollution and also to smoking), problems of asthma – spastic bronchitis (a high incidence among children in Greece and in other countries, of course). In Germany in the eighties a big campaign on this subject was run by parents who achieved improvements in the atmospheric conditions in the cities. Should we attribute the problem to “chemtrails” from unknown aircraft here or start a serious campaign?

* *
*Myth number one: some aircraft without identification markings are spreading chemicals.* Nowadays there are excessively many aircraft. Quite a number of people have their own personal aircraft and the white trails are not necessarily mysterious but probably from private aircraft. Already there is fearful congestion in air corridors and the number of aircraft in circulation has undergone a quantum leap in recent years. It is enough just to read official reports to see the traffic chaos in the airways.

* *

*Myth number two: many people have seen a chemical trail coming out of aircraft which does not disperse and is made up of the chemicals being sprayed into the atmosphere by all those who have organized the conspiracy.* I don’t understand how an average citizen, albeit with an ordinary level of scientific knowledge, not necessarily a chemist, cannot understand that depending on the atmospheric conditions the trail of pollution from the engines of aircraft engines, which burn kerosene and other additives, may be, or not be, visible. I remember from my childhood years the trails of aircraft in the sky being a sign of their passage if the atmospheric conditions permitted retention of the cloud of pollutants behind their engines. Certainly some aircraft are more advanced technologically and today pollute less. But most continue to pollute a great deal and I do not of course refer only to CO2 emissions (the greenhouse phenomenon). It is no coincidence that in the vicinity of airports and also in air corridors higher levels are recorded of certain pollutants. Just think of the photographs, and also the paintings, of ships sailing the seas and always leaving behind them a cloud of black smoke. Something similar happens in the atmosphere but atmospheric conditions do not always make it possible for this pollution to be visible. This does not mean that it is non-existent. When the conditions of temperature and humidity and the winds are favourable, the aerial pollutants can remain for quite a long time in the form of trails of cloud. So it is mostly a question of atmospheric conditions whether or not the polluting condensation trail is or is not visible.

* *

*Myth number three. There are pollutants in the atmosphere and pollution can be detected in certain terrains. For example analyses of areas that had been burnt indicated the presence of heavy metals and other dangerous chemicals*. *It is the unidentified aircraft that are spraying the atmosphere with toxic substances and so the chemicals are being detected in various regions which are being bombarded with chemicals. *It is evident that we live in an era of increased pollution, which knows no boundaries or borders. This pollution is the result of industrial production, transport, burning of fossil fuels, the use of dangerous materials and also the implementation of bad practices (for example uncontrolled - or even controlled, in regulated installations, burning of refuse, aerial spraying of pesticides, etc.) The burning for example of plastics from various electrical appliances which contain organic bromine compounds result in release into the atmosphere of a series of bromine compounds. Just look on the internet at what is happening, also, in areas of China and Vietnam where they burn thousand of tons of electrical appliances from the U.S.A. and Europe (smaller quantities now because of implementation of new legislation) so as to extract from them the precious metals. The toxic clouds travel. They don’t remain in one place. There are compounds of bromine and chlorine in many products we use in our everyday life, not necessarily only in industrial production and agriculture.

Research at the Crete Polytechnic indicates that even in the Aegean there are pollutants whose origin is not in having been sprayed from unidentified aircraft but from industrial and urban regions or Northern Europe, Central Europe and the Balkans. Our own industrial plants emit pollution into the Balkan region also. The dusts (microparticles) function as vehicles for other pollutants which are present in the atmosphere owing to a variety of different activities and are transformed into substances that are exceptionally dangerous to life and health. The clouds of dust (microparticles) convey the pollution over very great distances along different corridors which can only be approximately represented in the various dispersion models. The chemicals sprayed by farmers travel great distances with the wind and are detected very far away from their place of origin and in species with which they have not had immediate contact. In the sea too plastic - particularly small pieces of plastic – leach toxic substances, heavy metals and other pollutants and become even more dangerous for various forms of life.

The acid rain that has destroyed the forests and the lakes in Scandinavian countries (and in Germany) does not come only from those countries but in particular from Britain and other industrial regions. The presence of these pollutants was not the result of some indeterminate spraying of chemicals from unidentified aircraft. The chemical reactions which take place on the ground due to acid rain release aluminium and other chemical substances which damage plant life and weaken their immune system. An ordinary disease can thus find the immune system of the species weakened and kill the tree.

Another misunderstanding is that which links contamination of the soil, for example in areas recently burnt – but also in underground water, to a conspiracy. Research at the Crete Polytechnic and other research centres indicates the presence of heavy metals and other chemicals in the burnt regions and in the ash, but this probably comes from the burning of rubbish and more generally from the rubbish that was present in the areas, as well as the re-release into the environment of pollutants that had been retained in the forest trees – when the forests are burned it is again released into the atmosphere. In any case what is needed is greater research into the processes involved and not the conspiratorialist approach.

Nikos Chrysogelos

[siegmund]

Here is a statement on chemtrails by Nikos Chrysogelos

Research at the Crete Polytechnic indicates that even in the Aegean there are pollutants whose origin is not in having been sprayed from unidentified aircraft but from industrial and urban regions or Northern Europe, Central Europe and the Balkans. Our own industrial plants emit pollution into the Balkan region also. The dusts (microparticles) function as vehicles for other pollutants which are present in the atmosphere owing to a variety of different activities and are transformed into substances that are exceptionally dangerous to life and health. The clouds of dust (microparticles) convey the pollution over very great distances along different corridors which can only be approximately represented in the various dispersion models. The chemicals sprayed by farmers travel great distances with the wind and are detected very far away from their place of origin and in species with which they have not had immediate contact. In the sea too plastic - particularly small pieces of plastic – leach toxic substances, heavy metals and other pollutants and become even more dangerous for various forms of life.

The acid rain that has destroyed the forests and the lakes in Scandinavian countries (and in Germany) does not come only from those countries but in particular from Britain and other industrial regions. The presence of these pollutants was not the result of some indeterminate spraying of chemicals from unidentified aircraft. The chemical reactions which take place on the ground due to acid rain release aluminium and other chemical substances which damage plant life and weaken their immune system. An ordinary disease can thus find the immune system of the species weakened and kill the tree.

Another misunderstanding is that which links contamination of the soil, for example in areas recently burnt – but also in underground water, to a conspiracy. Research at the Crete Polytechnic and other research centres indicates the presence of heavy metals and other chemicals in the burnt regions and in the ash, but this probably comes from the burning of rubbish and more generally from the rubbish that was present in the areas, as well as the re-release into the environment of pollutants that had been retained in the forest trees – when the forests are burned it is again released into the atmosphere. In any case what is needed is greater research into the processes involved and not the conspiratorialist approach.


Very wise words. Thanks a bomb Wayne.

[Lou]

The Canadian Action Party doesn't do well in the polls. But just the fact that a Canadian political party will touch the subject is enough to make an impression here in Greece. Maltezos is also a politician in a small Greek political party, the Ecologists-Greens, who are however the Greek branch of the European Greens. There was a huge increase in their vote in the last Greek general elections, though they have not made it back into the parliament (their predecessor party had a parliamentarian in the early 90s).

But Maltezos' posting out of this info on chemtrails from Canada has been enough to stir one of the leadership of his party into action. There is now a more or less official statement on chemtrails from the Greek Greens. I will post the translation shortly.

Well my word, who would have thunk this information out of the Canadian Action Party that generates a so, so, Ho Hum response here in the states would spark interest within the Government of Greece, go figure.:confused:

I wish something would spark the interest of our politicians besides raising champagne funds to promote themselves as the next president of the United States, I'm really getting sick of all of these political whores.:mad::rolleyes:

Anyway, I hope something really dose come out of this CAP information on your side of the pond_sadly, nothing is happening here but the ongoing "Normal Contrail" status-quo BS.:rolleyes:

[halva]

Well my word, who would have thunk this information out of the Canadian Action Party that generates a so, so, Ho Hum response here in the states would spark interest within the Government of Greece, go figure.:confused:

I wish something would spark the interest of our politicians besides raising champagne funds to promote themselves as the next president of the United States, I'm really getting sick of all of these political whores.:mad::rolleyes:

Anyway, I hope something really dose come out of this CAP information on your side of the pond_sadly, nothing is happening here but the ongoing "Normal Contrail" status-quo BS.:rolleyes:

It's not the government of Greece. It's what are still very small-time politicians. But they are politicians working in the real world. Not internet phantoms.

Getting Chrysogelos to make a statement on chemtrails is Maltezos' second achievement in this story. His first was to get European Environment Commissioner Stavros Dimas to admit that aerosol spraying is going on.

http://www.enouranois.gr/english/pol...antisidima.htm

[may41970]

Today at CTC, "Ellyn" made the following post:


"Chemtrails" -- An article by Ron Corvus
Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:09 am

Here is a very long article about chemtrails. It was written by Ron Corvus at Corvus.com.

"Chemtrails"

The only chemtrail "mystery" is why bloggers have made a "mystery" out of a "non-mystery." It has been a matter of open public record for years now that Congress took action (holding open, public hearings not too many gave a damn about at the time) to attempt to replace the vanishing ozone layer with a replacement.

http://www.corvuswire.com/chemtrails.htm

Be sure to check out the article, Halva, if you haven't seen it yet. You're mentioned in it.


may41970

http://allaircraftarenotinvolved.freeforums.org/

[halva]

May if you want to do something that is of some earthly use to us post under your real name and persuade Nikos Chrysogelos that "chemtrails" are not a figment of conspiracy theorists' imaginations.

[Andrew Johnson]

This statement again illustrates the need to focus on basic evidence, rather than the "knee jerk" "conspiracy theorist" type response.

A friend of mine queried a UK MP about Chemtrails. His researcher sent my friend a response. I include his response and then the one I sent back to my friend, suggesting she could send it on to him if she wanted.

From: Chris Davies MEP
To: 'Terry and Penny'
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: FW:Chemtrails- 8th DECEMBER - DAY OF ACTION


Hi Penny



Sorry, but must refer you to my previous response.

There is as much information on the internet debunking chemtrails as a conspiracy theory as there is suggesting that they are part of some wider nefarious attempt to poison people or the environment.


This article for example links to some scientific expertise on the matter:

http://www.nmsr.org/chemtrls.htm


And the European Commission has responded recently to a question from an MEP regarding the composition of the trails in which it confirms that there is no evidence of any chemicals of the type suggested being present within them:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+WQ+E-2007-2455+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN



Again, I’m sorry that this might not be what you want to hear but if I asked Chris to investigate every conspiracy theory the internet espoused then he would never have any time to campaign for action on the real environmental problems that are backed up with actual scientific evidence.



With best regards,



Danny Langley





Danny Langley
Research and Casework Officer
Office of Chris Davies MEP

87a Castle Street
Stockport
SK3 9AR
United Kingdom

Telephone:+44 (0) 161 477 7150
Fax:+44 (0) 161 477 7007
www.chrisdaviesmep.org.uk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr Langley,

Penny Pullen Fwd'd the response you sent to her regarding her letter/communication regarding what many people (including me) call "Chemtrails", but perhaps should now be termed "Persistent Jet Trails", due to the knee-jerk response the former term seems to trigger.

The page you sent a link to http://www.nmsr.org/chemtrls.htm is known to me. Is it from a University? Is it from a organisation involved with climatology? No - it's not.

I always find it helpful to distinguish between theory, proof, evidence and conspiracy. It's an important distinction to make. So, let me give you some evidence - and facts. Here is a link to a report by Ulrich Schuman regarding "Persistent Contrails". He works for the Institute of Atmospheric Physics.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6X19-4GJM3SX-4&_user=10&_coverDate=06%2F30%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=124d8fdd96e7d2c4ea92741004d7294f

So, this is a good start. If you work through this report, impressive though it looks, you will find a number of significant omissions:

1) No direct statement about the maximum length of time a jet trail should persist for (the only figure mentioned is 2 minutes - I have no argument with that).
2) You will find no explanation of grids, triangles, parallel formations etc photogrpahed all over the world.
3) You will find no explanation for the rapid appearance of many trails on some days and not others (I filmed 42 aircraft in 2.5 hours leaving trails over Derby).
4) You will find no time-lapse studies (as I have done) to measure trail duration
5) You will find only brief analysis of satellite photos - and we have 2 good ones now, showing large amounts of trails from space, on days where they are seen on the ground.
6) It suggests contrails INDUCE cirrus cloud formation - but this is NOT what is seen. We see trails form IMMEDIATELY an aircraft goes over and they persist FROM THAT POINT ONWARDS (i.e. they don't form at a later time).

I wrote to the report's author pointing these and other issues out but he chose, for whatever reason, not to respond.

Let's cut to the basic fact - Physics dictates that water-vapour based aircraft which have no sooty or other deposits CANNOT persist for more than about 2 minutes.

All you need to do to investigate and verify these facts is watch the sky for a period of 1-2 weeks. The so-called "conspiracy theory" comes after you look at the basic evidence, not before. For further details information compiled by others and myself, see here;

http://www.checktheevidence.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=6&id=20&Itemid=50

Some of the postings here document further official denial of reality, and so it is easy to document the pattern of its occurrence.

As a general rule, it works better to look at the evidence and facts rather than assume a theory (conspiracy or otherwise). One can then quickly realise how the term "conspiracy theory" can be viewed, in a number of significant cases, simply as a desultory remark designed to distract people from looking at evidence.

I am perfectly open to any explanations being applicable for points 1-6 above. Specifically for the grid occurrence, neither my local airport (East Midlands), the CAA, or the DfT can give me any information as to what ordinary civilian flights created the grids and trails on the specific dates and times I gave them. How strange.

Yours Sincerely

Andrew Johnson
22 Mear Drive
Borrowash
Derbyshire
DE72 3QW

[kola]

spraying the city huh????????
---------------------------------------


VILLAHERMOSA, Mexico, Nov. 6 — Many parts of this city remained underwater on Tuesday, more than a week after torrential rain swelled rivers that then burst their banks, as the authorities and residents expressed concern about the potential for looting and for outbreaks of disease.

In the neighborhood Las Gaviotas, one of the hardest hit, the floodwaters were more than nine feet deep.

“We were the first to leave and we will be the last to go back,� said Ruth Sánchez Acosta, who was staying with friends near Villahermosa’s main cathedral.

In flooded areas of Villahermosa, the capital of the Gulf state of Tabasco, many residents paid quick visits to their houses as the waters receded to feed abandoned pets, retrieve soggy clothes and lay sodden furniture out to dry on the roof.

The authorities began pumping water from Villahermosa’s commercial district, and by the end of the afternoon Paseo Tabasco, the main avenue, which last week was a broad canal under seven feet of water, had become a shallow channel.

But the receding waters also heightened the risk of disease. Officials said there was no sign yet of epidemics, although the floodwaters’ descent could lead to outbreaks of diseases like malaria, dengue fever and cholera. Officials said they planned to spray the city to prevent outbreaks. Along the flooded streets, the risk of disease was visible. Dead chickens, dogs and even pigs floated in the water. New medical teams arrived in the city, joining teams of medical workers and police officers from elsewhere in Mexico.

The lower waters also made it easier for looters to get into abandoned houses. Residents said thieves had been traveling the flooded streets at night.

During the day, soldiers and police officers patrolled some of the flooded streets, but they were not present at night. Thousands of people in flooded areas chose to remain on their roofs to guard their few possessions.

In a radio interview on Tuesday, José Luis Luege, the head of Mexico’s National Water Commission, said it would take a couple of weeks to pump out many neighborhoods. Residents of Las Gaviotas, he said, would not be able to go home until the end of the month.

Authorities raised the death toll in Tabasco to three. In the neighboring state of Chiapas, where a mudslide late Sunday in the riverside village of Juan de Grijalva left at least 16 people missing, the authorities said that they had found two bodies and that they were continuing to search for more.

An estimated 60,000 to 70,000 people were being housed in shelters, Interior Minister Francisco RamÃ*rez Acuña said in a television interview on Tuesday. He estimated that some 400,000 people in Tabasco would need some kind of government aid to get back on their feet.

President Felipe Calderón visited both Tabasco and Chiapas on Tuesday. He announced a reconstruction fund of about $670 million, but admitted that it would be only a start. The Tabasco governor, Andrés Grenier, said the damage had reached almost $5 billion.

The natural disaster in low-lying Tabasco has captured the country’s attention. Mexicans have donated food, water, clothes, diapers and medicine.

[may41970]

Hi Andrew, welcome to the board. You wrote:


A friend of mine queried a UK MP about Chemtrails. His researcher sent my friend a response...

From: Chris Davies MEP
To: 'Terry and Penny'
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: FW:Chemtrails- 8th DECEMBER - DAY OF ACTION

Hi Penny

Sorry, but must refer you to my previous response.

There is as much information on the internet debunking chemtrails as a conspiracy theory as there is suggesting that they are part of some wider nefarious attempt to poison people or the environment.

This article for example links to some scientific expertise on the matter:

http://www.nmsr.org/chemtrls.htm

...And, I’m sorry that this might not be what you want to hear but if I asked Chris to investigate every conspiracy theory the internet espoused then he would never have any time to campaign for action on the real environmental problems that are backed up with actual scientific evidence.

With best regards,

Danny Langley

So this official turned to the internet to research chemtrails? Yeah, it's depressing that the official couldn't have simply looked up and used his own brain:

"Interesting, but I don't remember seeing horizon-to-horizon plane exhaust in the mid-nineties."

"I never saw plane exhaust turn into clouds in the mid-nineties either"

"Now, there are thousands of photos on the net of "tic-tac-toe" formations in the sky. Why aren't there any pictures of these formations from before 1997?*"

*military exercises excluded


So sadly, Langley turned to the internet for information. And when he investigated the big chemtrail sites like Educate-Yourself or Chemtrail Central, he saw people talking about the nuttiest things possible - population culling, jesus, satan, aliens and ufos, angels, nostradamus prophesy. Occult architecture. And chemtrails too. Sylphs.

What a lovely introduction to chemtrails. To realize that people who believe in chemtrails, even the moderators at places like Chemtrail Central, post crazy stuff about jesus and whatnot..

How could this official NOT instinctively feel that these chemtrail believers are whackjobs - some of them perhaps even dangerous. One poster at CTC recently spoke of "shooting aliens full of lead at 750 feet per second."

A lot of fear is incited on the boards about how we are being "watched" by nefarious agencies. "Lou" posts pictures of a BLACK HELICOPTER that was buzzing around his property (Oh dread!) Other people talk our how their phones have been tapped. Big Bunny/chem11 post about how their site is visited by lots of three-letter agencies.

All lies and bullshit, imo. Nothing more than another way to scare away real folks from speaking up. And to make officials, in this age of fear, eager to avoid any discussion about chemtrails.

Think about it Andrew. What could do more harm to chemtrails awareness than to illustrate that practically every person who posts about chemtrails is a paranoid, trembling in fear, raving-mad nutbar?

This is not the case in real life. Real people can see chemtrails. Sane people. But I can understand how the chemtrails forums chase the real people away. I can understand how the fake believers and fearmongers at Chemtrail Central convinced Langely to drop the subject.

"Lou Aubuchont"
"Lou Aubuchont," - which I suspect is not even his/her/their real name - is a big part of a "scientific" book about chemtrails by Will Thomas. Will Thomas is a considered a credible reseacher.

"Lou" recently boasted about how he has the mental powers to "dissolve clouds out of the sky." "Lou" frequently makes nonsensical, rabid, frothing attacks against me and Socrates. Attacks that would make anyone question this person's mental health.

Yet Will Thomas, even at his new site, is still propping up Lou as the centerpiece of his "scientific" chemtrails book. It's called "Chemtrails Confirmed." There are several editions of the book.

"Lou" claims to have witnessed an onslaught of hundreds of chemtrails in a single day. It was investigated by his friend at a radio station. Where are the pictures you ask? Well, there aren't any. Lou claims to have been involved in some secret interviews with an air-traffic controller. Do you want to hear the secret interviews? No problem. Just pay money to Will Thomas, then maybe you can hear them.

Many strange characters post from "Lou's" computer: "Tracker" "S.T. Brendt" "J-Vitum." But "Ann Angry Bitch" is by far the most interesting as far as illustrating that "Lou", the ex-naval intelligence courier - is not what he seems.

But Will Thomas, one of the most respected chemtrails researchers around still props up "Lou". Doesn't make sense.

Or does it?

What am I getting at? I don't believe for a minute that all these kooky believers that spam chemtrail message boards with their crazy ideas are genuine. I think they are paid hacks to convince people like Danny Langley that chemtrails are conspiracy theory, and those that believe in them are insane.

I don't think "Lou's" crazy or insane. I think he's paid to appear as such. Sometimes I've even pondered if "Lou" might be an internet identity of Will Thomas.

CHEMTRAIL CENTRAL FORUM
This forum is corrupt. Here's the proof.

Where is the CTC Changes thread?
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/thread11993.html

ALL AIRCRAFT ARE NOT INVOLVED FORUM
This is one of the reasons socrates and I are so widely attacked across the internet. There is no kooky stuff at our forum. Unlike Chemtrail Central, we don't scrub entire threads, nor do we have the power to delete them from internet archives.

The fakes - who are probably being paid by the same people spraying the chemtrails - can't stand us.

We are two nobodies on different sides of the world, but we are speaking candidly and without fear. About chemtrails. About the corruption of the internet. About the corruption of internet forums. We are attacked constantly and accused of a lot of bad things. Every week (what I assume are) paid hacks try out some new way to defame us and try to break our spirit; make us lose confidence in or hate ourselves. But they haven't broken us down yet.

We're still here.

We are still speaking truth to power in a way that few others are willing to.

peace and courage

may41970



http://allaircraftarenotinvolved.freeforums.org/

[Jeff Reynolds]

Hiya may41970,

Great post. Feel free to copy and paste that focker over at our humble forum.

Here is a cross-post of something I just wrote. There were more CTC Changes threads than I had remembered. Here is the proof. Twelve threads and 116 posts were deleted that backed up our thinking that the ChemTroll Central has been a scripted piece of shit.

I do not believe that there is a "Louis Aubuchont." One can look at the findings we came up with on the "Deep Sky" hoax and shake their head. One can look at any of the rantings by "Lou Aubuchont" and wonder who the fock this guy really is. They can see that he has posted as an AnnAngryBitch posting homophobic comments. They can see how he supports obvious nutjobs like Weatherman714. They can see how he has shown support for all the primary characters in the major chemtrail forum script. They can see how he has said he goes to Wilhelm Reich orgone conferences and how he claims to be able to wipe out small clouds with the power of his own mind.

I now believe that Thermit/Mark Steadham is a disinformation agent. What other explanation is there for him having deleted the CTC Changes section at his chemtrails are kooky message board? On more than a few occasions I had asked Swampgas and Increase1776 about the CTC Changes threads. Swampgas ignored my requests while Increase1776 acted like he didn't know what I was referring to.

I went to the wayback machine to try to locate those threads. Myself and may41970 weren't sure if there was one big thread or what. I had remembered there being a whole section called CTC Changes. Well, I tracked down the number of threads and posts actually made in that section. It is far beyond what I had remembered. Now why has Thermit/Mark Steadham gone to so much trouble to delete those threads. There were so many of them with so many posts, I wonder, if they were so idiotic back then, why didn't he remove them immediately? Now I ask, why did he delete them all?

They were deleted because they backed the claims made by myself, may41970, and NatureisMad to an extent, that the major chemtrail boards have been totally manipulated all these years. It isn't just the CTC Changes threads that got deleted. Many other posts from the past have been so. There was a poster named Innocent Bystander who had realistic questions about the Kucinich chemtrails draft bill. Chem11 and Deborah/Foot Soldier chastized the man for asking honest questions about the bill and about claims made by an alcon777. One can see in the caches the truth with that specific thread. If one stumbles across the thread in the ctc archives, not the cache, they will not get the full picture. In fact, other posters and posts are missing from the ctc archives. The reason is because if anyone could really take a good look at an intact archive, they would more easily understand the nature of the script. Ironically, one of the deleted comments by Innocent Bystander warned Deborah/Foot Soldier that if she wasn't careful, some day she might be seen as a debunker also.

Years later, with no help from the chemtrails are kooky script, we now see that some nutjob Disclosure Project/cia whatever ass named Carol Rosin infiltrated the peace movement and turned the Kucinich bill into a joke. In addition to chemtrails being put into the bill draft, extra-terrestrial weapons were also included. Carol Rosin was a strawman. That Kucinich bill draft was a strawman.

The following is concrete proof that Chemtroll Central is a disinformation palace. I could understand if Thermit/Mark Steadham moved the CTC Changes threads from the main board. I really could respect that. But how is one not to think he is a disinfo punk when he went ahead and deleted all public access to the threads.

And Swampgas. How the hell is he not a disinformation creation? He has said he copied all the ctc threads. But when I asked him about these threads, he never responded. That is what trolls do. They don't post fairly.

But this script was uncovered. The CTC Changes threads were read by a bunch of us before they got deleted. It would have been nice to be able to look at them again this past year, as it would have helped newbies/fence sitters to better understand what myself, may41970, and NatureisMad went through. But whatever. We are not liars. We are not sock puppets. We do not post as people other than ourselves. "Lou Aubuchont" cannot say the same. People can rummage through the nazi website wrh "unofficial" and see the idiotic campaign set up to make us look like disinfo. They have failed. If anything, there has been added credibility to what this website has presented. Look closely at the picture of the chemjet at the top of this page. That crap came directly out of the tail part of the plane, not the engines. People can look at the skywatch videos, stop it in places, etc., and see that we are for real here. We may not have the power of fake numbers, but we are real people.


CTC Changes Threads
There was a time where people had to be authorized to post in the main chemtrails section at Chemtroll Central.
This was one of the last dates before Thermit/Steadham "stabbed" the moderator team and opened the place back up to anyone. Of course, now we realise that this was a script. We know this because Swampgas has shut his yapper up after saying he would never let this story be deleted. Well, yes, SwampAss, you are no better than a disinformation punk. The only way I might reconsider this is if swamp posts all the threads that have been deleted by Thermite. This damn Thermit character. He conveniently had some study which seemed to promote the idea that chemtrails are not contrails. But later on he would post that much of what we witness are contrails. He also has allowed the craziest, nuttiest crap to appear at his website. He also never answers his e-mail. He allows moderators to break rules left and right.

These fuckers are just mad that a few of us have done what the hypocrite swampgas has refused to do. We have not let this fake script get buried. We have not allowed this major scrubbing of chemtrail forum history to get buried.

Yes, Chemtrail Central is a disinformation pit.
Thermit/Steadham must be in on it.
Swamp must be in on it.
Lou Aubuchont is clearly some type of mean, nasty disinfo pimp.
Deborah is a front.
Chem11 is full of shit.

The whole thing has been a nutty script.




How many threads and posts were deleted which back up myself and may's interpretation of the fakery at the major chemtrail boards? How 'bout 12 threads and 116 posts. deleted. Gone. Scrubbed.




But they didn't get away with it. None of them have.
Myself and may41970 joined forces earlier this year at DebateBothSides.
We got a few good months there where we compiled evidence and presented our case.

When we finally were able to show that "Lou Aubuchont" and "Deep Sky" are hoaxes, that there have been cointelpro-like frauds like Carol Rosin, that was when we started to get trolled by these fockers from all over the place. These assholes never thought we would be able to figure their shit out completely, while still being able to present a good case for the existence of chemtrails.

They lost, and we won.
Chemtrails will be exposed and stopped.

[halva]

May if you want to do something that is of some earthly use to us post under your real name and persuade Nikos Chrysogelos that "chemtrails" are not a figment of conspiracy theorists' imaginations.

Lou wrote this to me in a private message: "Just a note Wayne_encouraging 'socrates" alter ego "may41970" by responding to him (socrates) as "may41970" does not do anything to deter 'socrates' from continuing this charade of posing as "may41970", your only reinforcing his belief that he can get away with it because we are so stupid we can not tell that "may41970" is a fantasy creation of his.

You post as you like but remember, in responding to "may41970" your making this cartoon character as real and credible as any other poster, do you really want to do that?"

I replied to Lou: "There was the option of ignoring him or reopening the issue of the false identities. Do you really want to keep talking about that subject at Debate Both Sides? I told him to use his real name."

But it turns out that Lou has been 100% right and I wrong. Not that ignoring May would have been any solution because one of the phantom identities now welcomes Andrew Johnson (real name, as far as I know), at the same time saluting the other phantom identity and so saving himself from what would have happened if his re-entry to the discussion had been ignored.

If no-one else talks to either Jeff Reynolds or May, they can always talk to each other. i.e. "Socrates" can talk to himself. And there are other phantoms who can also be enlisted.

Is there really no provision covering this practice on the rules at DBS?

I am ashamed to have invited Andrew Johnson to a forum where such practices are tolerated.

My fault.

[halva]

And the reality is that at a forum where the moderators are indifferent or hostile to discussion of chemtrails, measures will not be taken against these practices of this unidentified person in Boston, who may well have come to this issue with good intentions and simply cracked up under the pressure. As a result he sees no alternative but to "win" the chemtrails fight by driving everyone else (the fakes and the loonies) away. He has no real life peer group in whose eyes he must preserve his reputation, so he can keep behaving like this, forever.

I am not complaining. Other posters can merely note the facts and act as they think best.

[Lou]

"The philosopher Socrates was taken to the near-by jail where his sentence would be carried out. Athenian law prescribed death by drinking a cup of poison hemlock. "Socrates would be his own executioner.""
______________________________________

Oddly enough, It seems that history does repeat itself,...........Ha. :rolleyes::D

[halva]

"The philosopher Socrates was taken to the near-by jail where his sentence would be carried out. Athenian law prescribed death by drinking a cup of poison hemlock. "Socrates would be his own executioner.""
______________________________________

Oddly enough, It seems that history does repeat itself,...........Ha. :rolleyes::D

Yes but this boy from Boston is no more "Socrates" than he is the cousin of Jay Reynolds. And he is not being executed. He is able to continue here, being a pest and preventing these threads from attracting other people who are not sociopaths like himself. I am not complaining, by the way, Lou. I am just responding to what you say.

[Lou]

Sorry_ just could not resist the irony of it. :D;):D

[Andrew Johnson]

In response to the idea "chemtrails are too closely associated with aliens, UFOs sylphs" etc on the internet - yeah - of course they are.

Which is why the discussion must be focused on specific points of evidence.

Take another example - there are quite a few scientists have fundamental religious beliefs - does that affect the reliability of their scientific studies? Perhaps in some cases the answer might be "yes", but in others it would probably be "no".

Let's take another example - BBC broadcasts a programme about ghosts and poltergiests - does that invalidate their coverage of everything else?

So let's get people to focus on examples of evidence and dissociate from the stuff they haven't studied sufficiently to make sense of.

I think the lesson is that on the internet "you have to be your own authority".

[halva]

The problem is that Jeff Reynolds-May-Socrates-Toto shows no signs of being able to talk about this objective problem more intelligently and honestly than he is able to talk about anything else. What he is going to try to do now is enlist you into his campaign for insulting and abusing Lou, which is the priority he has set himself at this moment. Please pardon me for bringng you to this place. I had thought we were beginning to get things under control but this is evidently not the case.

Apart from the attacks on Lou he will regale you with tirades about many other people you do not know and who are not here at this forum. Or he may start up on Footsoldier again, who is currently not bothering anybody.

[Jeff Reynolds]

I am not TOTO or may41970. The continued fake attacks on myself and may41970 are backfiring. When I get the time, there will be a huge assortment of postings which will shed even more tremendous light on this chemtrails are kooky campaign. These fockers didn't know when to quit when they should have.

Here's a quick preview of what to expect.

"Lou Aubuchont" is promoting Carol Rosin, a disinfo spook who with cointelpro-like precision infiltrated the chemtrails awareness movement and instantly discredited it, just like "Aubuchont" and "Wayne Hall" have.

Carol Rosin ended up writing the Kucinich draft bill which included the word "chemtrails." That is the same draft that included the phrase "extra-terrestrial weapons." I am not saying "Lou" has posted this in yet another lame attempt to annoy us in particular. Perhaps this is just more clear-cut proof that "Aubuchont" is a cornerstone for the chemtrails are kooky script. Rosin has also been involved with some bullshit disinfo called the Disclosure Project.

Von Braun's Space Weapons Warning / youtube vid. (http://chemtrailcentral.com/forum/thread12731.html)


posted by "Louis Aubuchont"

Carol Rosin - Von Braun's Space Weapons Warning.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CaTgOSHbBEI


I went to the googler to try to find some stuff on this lady. This whole ufo/disclosure project crap is utter nonsense. Anyone interested in understanding better how spooks like Rosin and "Aubuchont" operate should take a look at the following links. Their disinfo roles have to do with infiltrating social movements and then tainting them with perversion. Their goals are to take real issues and turn them into a mockery, into sheer kookiness. Rosin's disinfo work has been centered on astroturfing the peace movement as loony left. Subsequently, "Aubuchont's" role has been to astroturf that those who believe chemtrails are real are kooks.

Aliens Ate My Buick
Carol Rosin: A Postcard from the Edge (http://strangegrub.blogspot.com/2007/04/carol-rosin-postcard-from-edge.html)


Nukes, Kooks, and Spooks
NKS #3: Carol Rosin: Mad Hatter or Mata Hari? (http://www.animatedsoftware.com/cassini/cass2001/nks0003.htm)
by Russell D. Hoffman, citizen activist (former editor, STOP CASSINI newsletter)

[halva]

QED.

In fact he is not even trying to "enlist" anybody or gain credibility with a newcomer as anyone still hoping for membership in the human race would try to do.

[Jeff Reynolds]

They should have stopped. They are now gonna get it!
And that includes Halvar aka "Wayne Hall"


Bob Marley Calling You Chumps Out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gj1kB_1B4I

Bob Marley Gives Us Hope!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5kAxuye5xY

[halva]

Here is a statement on chemtrails by Nikos Chrysogelos
http://www.nafpaktia.com/images/746.jpg
of the Greek Ecogreens
http://www.ecogreens.gr/gr/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=32

I see that a conspiracy-type interpretation of pollution problems is being propagated which is not connected to reality and probably based on ignorance of basic parameters of the movement of pollutants. The existence of a project which has been called “geoengineering” cannot be generalized, nor can linking all the pollution of the planet to a project which in any case if it were implemented or has been implemented would be implemented on a very limited scale. It seems exactly like the rumour that ecologists are releasing snakes, or lately – as we hear – also fleas! And everyone is sure that they have seen ecologists doing such things.

(snip: see http://www.debatebothsides.com/showpost.php?p=876804&postcount=8608)


Reaction from Brian Holmes:

I cannot read this as being a serious appraisal of the subject. I don't care at all for the style.

The first "myth" paragraph is nonsense: CT aircraft are often referenced as being "unmarked" - not so! They are NOT unmarked - just that there is nothing to be seen from the ground. The ID and serial numbers are a few inches high with any national logo as a 20% gray on 10% "silver".

Some examples:

http://www.pbase.com/keith1959/tankers__transports

Plus this list of points would make more sense - from this page (there could be more):

http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/spreading.html

Here are a few simple, direct points to look for or questions to ask if you see an unusual plume in the sky - and this is in no way an all-inclusive definition list and is simply intended to assist in your own personal observations:

* Are the aircraft in question on regular commercial flight paths or in some restricted, such as military, air space?

* Are the aircraft seen on a regular scheduled, perhaps daily, basis or very irregularly?

* Are aircraft seen laying plumes interacting with other similar aircraft in a way that is obviously at odds with normal air traffic such as crossing flight paths and flying at closer than normal spacing or intervals?

* Are such plume-creating aircraft seen very frequently, perhaps in considerable numbers, for a period of days and then perhaps not at all for a while in a way that would not be typical of regularly scheduled commercial air traffic?

* Is there by chance another aircraft in the sky at a similar high altitude that is apparently on a regular commercial flight path but is leaving behind a short, shall we say, traditional, condensation trail whereas the other aircraft is laying a trail that may stretch from horizon to horizon?

* A basic factor in regards to long plumes is that the persistent contrail may spread out over the sky and, under certain light conditions, may refract light showing some colors of the rainbow. Has that been seen?

* Are the plumes laid throughout the sky so that in an hour or so your sky becomes overcast purely from the spreading plumes?

* And of course there is the question of atmospheric conditions suitable for the formation of traditional condensation trails - do such conditions exist at altitude?

**

In general material such as this from Louisiana will make more of an impression on people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okB-489l6MI

[Lou]

QED.

In fact he is not even trying to "enlist" anybody or gain credibility with a newcomer as anyone still hoping for membership in the human race would try to do.

I think we will just have overlook the rantings and ravings of "Jeffie Boy", his world of late has been, well, falling apart so to speak since he got "Tagged to be banned" at CTC all that he can do is lash out.

The poor pathetic creature is so desperate that he has been making post at obscure sites which he turned around and claimed that he did not make, this is a habit with him, he has claimed that others have impersonated him in the past in an effort to gain some attention, it's not very original, you would think that he could come up with some new tricks but then again old habits did hard, especially if your to busy attacking others to give much thought to your own Modus operandi.

It's hard to concentrate on an issue like Chemtrails among others when we have lunatics like this constantly attacking our every post, our motives and intentions, this particular individual has become in Chemtrail circles worse than the outright debunkers that once plagued these forums, seems they have been replaced by a new breed of attack dog who seems to base his attacks from the inside posing as one of us but proceeds to cause as much chaos, conflict ,turmoil and division as he possibly can, some have even suggested that he is not working alone but part of some organized effort to systematically work various forums in an effort to single out individuals and carry out character assignation attacks on them to the point of some forums actually closing down threads.

I don't subscribe to that theory because from what I have seen of 'socrates' and his other identities like "may41970" he is just not bright enough to be part of some organized effort like that, He does not cover his tracks very well and leaves a trail right back to himself, in fact he acts pretty stupid most of the time as with his incessant rantings that everyone is a fake , liar, spook and government misinformation agent, this fanatic sees bogeymen around every corner and in every post that is made regarding issues such as Chemtrails.

I believe that most of us are familiar with his patented obnoxious tirades by now and have noticed that whether he is writing as himself or as "may41790" his reactions to other peoples post concerning UFO's / Extraterrestrial life, weather modification via the use of Orgone, etc, etc, are identical to each other, another dead giveaway that they are one and the same authors of this type of psychotic, obsessive, closed mindedness.

Threats by this fanatic fool, real or implied, such as "They are now gonna get it" only show how ignorant he really is, making threats to continued his harassment of others exposes his true agenda which is to attack those associated with the Chemtrail issue, he could not be more clear on this unless he took out a full page add in the New York Times.

I've called for 'socrates' posting as "may41970" to disprove my allegations that they are one in the same by posting some recent date / time stamped photos of himself (may41970) holding up a handwritten sign in front of a local landmark in Taiwan where he / she alleges living but to date "They" have stayed as far away from that subject as possible, wriggling and squirming, hedging and dodging like a Three Card Monty con artist, why, it's a simple thing to do and if I was "may41970" and really did live in Taiwan I would certainly put up the photos to prove it but more to make me look like a FOOL in the process. ( Why won't he, what's stopping him?)

How about it 'socrates' / "may41970", when are you going to try and fake some photos for us to go along with the rest of your BS, I put up photos proving where I live, why can't you "may41970", maybe because your what your counterpart 'socrates' calls a FAKE and a LIAR right along with himself?

And on that note 'Jeffy Boy' / 'socrates / "may41970", have fun working out more excuses not to put those photos up for us all to see, we all know the real reason for no photos, don't we, "may41970' lives in your head, NOT TAIWAN.

You have some nerve calling others FAKES, LIARS and KOOKS, have you looked in a mirror lately? :rolleyes:

[Lou]

I would not put it past this Nit-Wit 'socrates' to try and find an internet pen-pal in Taiwan just so he could come up with some photos since He can't come up with them from his hole in Massachusetts.:rolleyes:

[Lou]

Hey_'socrates',...why don't you try Eeeeeeeeeeee_Harmony Taiwan,..........Ha.:D

Maybe you can find a little homeboy friend to send you some photos.:rolleyes:

[TOTO]

Once again I am being called by that NUTJOBs name. I have asked nicely in the past not to be called him and offered that the mod here put out a post to prove that my IP is not his but was told by someone here that it wont prove that anyway.
But this Jeff/Socrates/May/Will have like Lou says caused much havoc on many websites.
One website called Progressive Independant banned him almost right away as the mod/owner there was smart enough to do so just as soon as he started his bullshit on her site. Now if you want to go to his little site there is in his astroturfing a thread all about her website being all the usual names he calls them when they do not bow down to him. She I think she sells her name Tionre or something close to that tried her best to tell him just to move on but he would not and he made many threats to her and all this can be read right on his site.
There is also 2 threads in the diversion bin at the Alaska board that HE started and there are some posts over on those that are coming from someone who says he is the mod at CTC and from Lou . I do not know if this is really them or if it is Socrates pretending to be them to get some more attention. On that site he goes by the names of Will Kane or as Last name left
But I emailed the mod/owner of Progressive Independant because in one of her emails to this asswipe Socrates after he madethreats to her she told him she was going to put out a memo to other website owners and their mods about him. I have recieved a reply from her and we will be in contact with each other again real soon regarding Socrates along with some other people we are going to ask for her hekp in getting out that memo so he will be stopped once and for all so people can get back to what they want to post instead of all this garbage. My next post is something I just found on the Alaska board it is there 4 times and I think it is from Socrates
If anyone wants to send a email to the nod at PI along with some other people feel free to pm me.
TOTO
sEE THE NEXT POST AND SEE WHAT YOU THINK OF IT ALSO GO HAVE A LOOK IN THE DIVERSION BIN AT THE ALASKA BOARD AND SEE IF IT REALLY IS YOU POSTING THERE OR NOT. SINCE THERE ARE POSTS THERE FROM LOU AND THE MOD OF CTC I DONT KNOW IF THOSE ARE REALLY LOU AND THAT MOD OR NOT
OH I DONT ATTACK ANYONE , I AM TRYING TO GET RID OF HIM !

[halva]

Toto the best way to prove you are not Socrates would be to talk about some other subject.

[TOTO]

FABRICATIONS AND LIBEL TO BE DRASTICALLY PUNISHED IN COURT
Submitted by Anonymous on Fri, 11/16/2007 - 19:30.Show/Hide
To the Owners and/or Operators of "Alaska Free Press."

Please be advised that your website is being used to disseminate certain libelious statements about respected members of the community. We have tried to find a way to contact your staff to make you aware of the abusive practice of some of your "bloggers," most of whom (if not all) write under ficticious names, however, we can't seem to find any contact information on your site. More importantly, you are not listed publicly on any Web Registry but "secretly" which is highly suspect for a website that purports to support truth in publishing, etc.

Your unrestricted and unsupervised posting of boldly criminal statements that are flat out fabrications against certain established, reputable business leaders in the community has been noted and reported to the authorities and a group of individuals, including lawyers and IT personnel is preparing to take you to task. It should be noted that some of the fabrications and lies being posted on your site have resulted in financial damages to several individuals, whom are among the plaintiffs against you.

Once the ownership information of this site surfaces and the name of the owner and the names of the respective "so called" authors of these malevolent pieces is made known in the real world there will be stiff penalties and perhaps tremendous financial punitive damages, not to mention the possibility of jail time.

So be adviced. G

OVERN YOURSELVES ACCORDINGLY.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this was just put on the alaska board in 4 differant places. I think that Socrates is getting very upset that no one is playing with him anymore and being banned and tagged has pushed him to the very edge . I think this nutjob is ready to blow a casket.
Please pm me if you would like to join in sending the mod at PI a email to help us ask her to get out that memo to all other forums and stop this nutjob !

[TOTO]

Halva
You are right of course. I only read about chemtrails and try to follow it all as I am not a scientist or anything like that.
But I have seen what I think a chemtrail is in the sky and I would not be surprized at all to find out that one day you all will know what they are and why and what they were used for.
I also think that it looks as though you have made a great dent in this issue and are getting a lot of feedback from some top people finally. I say congradulations to you.
Maybe that is also upsetting that moron because it was you who did this and not him.
I have a great interst in what is put in vaccines and what it is doing to children so at this point nothing would surprize me at ll on what and I use this term losely THEy would do for profit and gains at the health to humans.

Good luck to you all , I will keep on reading all the strives you all make and I hope that as a group that more can be done to stop this nutcase so then all can focus on the issues be them chemtrails or vaccines we have a right to post things without being attacked and stalked and have threats made against us.
Thank you all
TOTO

[halva]

What are you doing and/or saying with the moderators here, since this is the forum we are most concerned about?

[TOTO]

tHE MOD HERE PM ME AND TOLD ME TO STOP POSTING ABOUT HIM
I PMED HIM/HER BACK TO EXPLAIN WHY I POSTED ABOUT HIM AND POSTED THAT LETTER I FOUND WHERE HE STATES IN HIS OEN WORDS THAT HE IS BOTH SOCRATES AND MAY41970 AND ALSO WILL KANE ,
THE RETURN PM I RECIEVED WAS STOP OR BE BANNED
HOW CAN I FIGHT THAT ?
I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY HE SOCRATES IS ALLOWED TO HARASS AND EVEN THREATEN PEOPLE BUT I CANT BRING PROFF
I DONT KNOW WHAT TO SAY NEXT TO THE MOD HERE
BUT I AM THINKING THAT SINCE HE DID HIS BS ON SO MANY SITES THAT IF A MEMO FROM A MOD/OWNER OF ONE THAT BANNED HIM THEN OTHERS WOULD STOP ALLOWING HIS BS TO.
THEN EVERYONE COULD POST IN PEACE INSTEAD OF ALL THE BS HE DOES

[halva]

OK, you've been informed now about the moderators' attitude here. That is the reality we work with.

[TOTO]

HERE IS THE LINK TO THE THREAD THAT HAS POSTS BY THE MOD FROM CTC AND ALSO LOU....THAT IS IF THIS IS REALLY THEM .
I DO NOT HAVE A CLUE BUT IT WOULDD BE INTERESTING TO KNOW IF IT IS NOT THE MOD FROM CTC OR IF IT IS NOT LOU .
THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT OF PEOPLE UPSET WITH SOCRATES AND HE IS GETTING A TASTE OF HIS OWN MEDICINE ON THAT BOARD BUT IF HE IS USING SOMEONES NAME THERE AND IT IS NOT THEM THEY MIGHT WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THIS

http://alaskafreepress.com/msgboard/board/2234

[halva]

What do you want us to do with this information Toto?

[Lou]

TOTO_All I see at that Alaska Free Press link are Anonymous posters, how do you know that it's one of the mod's from CTC and myself posting there, isn't that a bit presumptuous of you?

Fact Is, I did leave a couple of post there in response to what someone else had written with regard to 'socrates' posting at other sites and then claiming it wasn't him, that's an old trick of his, nothing new, as for one of the CTC mod's posting there I can't say because I don't know who is posting there, practically everyone there recently is a no-name.

Seems that 'socrates' doesn't have much of a following over there, he must have really pissed everyone off but good with his BS from what I gather, some of those post are just oozing with hate for that stupid little prick.

I guess he got all bent out of shape over the discussion of Jewry that was going on there and caused so much trouble the thread was shut down and people got banned over the tantrum he threw, obviously 'socrates' must be a Jew to have gotten so bent out of shape over a thread on Jewry.

I don't much care if he is a four foot tall Chinaman, what bothers me is that he is such an ignorant Ass Hole and troublemaker, so far he has not managed to do any real damage to CTC, the long time posters there have pretty thick skin, plus he has been "Tagged to be banned" because of his BS so he is on thin ice there, I expect to see him go anytime, you will here the crowd noise when that happens, everyone will be doing the freaking wave when he gets booted from CTC.

There are a couple of IDIOTS like him there but not quite as bad, one of them is beginning to irritate me though, he's A PUNK with a big mouth and a know it all attitude, reminds me a lot of 'socrates' when he first showed up on the scene, same kind of BS, Oh well, what can you do, these forums are not exactly Church socials are they, there are bound to be troublemaking punks in the mix of people these sites draw, this place being no exception because it's sure got it's share.

Anyway, like Wayne asked, where exactly are you going with all of this 'socrates' and his seventeen ID's horsesh*t, what's the point, e-mailing the mod at Progressive Independent and crying to her about this pile of steaming dog crap and trying to get her to put out a memo on him to other sites?

Not to worry, he is already known at the major sites, worldwide I imagine by now as a troublemaker and I expect he will be dealt with sooner or later as they encounter him, the BOY has made a reputation for himself don't you know, isn't that just special.

Ok, enough of the never ending 'socrates' story,:rolleyes:.... I'm out of here.

[halva]

I guess he got all bent out of shape over the discussion of Jewry that was going on there and caused so much trouble the thread was shut down and people got banned over the tantrum he threw, obviously 'socrates' must be a Jew to have gotten so bent out of shape over a thread on Jewry.


Nobody who could get Yitzhak Rabin confused with Menachem Begin, as Socrates did, could be a Jew.

[halva]

It's not the government of Greece. It's what are still very small-time politicians. But they are politicians working in the real world. Not internet phantoms.

Getting Chrysogelos to make a statement on chemtrails is Maltezos' second achievement in this story. His first was to get European Environment Commissioner Stavros Dimas to admit that aerosol spraying is going on.

http://www.enouranois.gr/english/pol...antisidima.htm

Here is some more input from members of the Greek Greens:

Concerning the discussion on chemtrails, all I could add at the moment is a question mark.

I am not in favour that the chemtrails should be at the moment a "flag" issue of any official Green campaign, not until there is definite proof. I fully understand Nikos Chrysogelos's serious doubts and his choice of priorities. There are so many proven issues of pollution which need to be dealt with first, before dealing with a suspicion, however serious it may be if true. There can be no campaign if nobody knows for sure who is doing this, who is financing the spraying, before we definitely know who and why is causing the problem. All there should be at the moment is more research on the matter of pollution by airplanes in general which may prove or disprove the issue of chemtrails.

However, considering Dimas' response to Gregoris Maltezos, there should now be a question mark in everybody's mind, which definitely needs an answer.

So, Stavros Dimas should be questioned again, to clarify what he meant in more detail and be more direct about it as he seems to know more than he admits, at least reading through his words.

After this second answer by Dimas-- should be an official one--, the discussion could be carried out on a more firm basis.

The Green Party should not be asked to campaign or have an opinion on this issue. All that "enouranois" should ask for, is that the Greens (not necessarily the Greek Greens) pose a question, based on the strange reply of Stavros Dimas.


A further note from Halva:

Could there be some connection between Environmental Commissoner Dimas's slight shift on the subject of chemtrails and the fact that the corporate lobbyists have him in their sights at the moment for his position on genetically modified maize?

"On 25 October, Stavros Dimas, European Commissioner for the Environment, stood up to big agribusiness - refusing to allow cultivation of two varieties of genetically modified maize (Bt 11 and 1507).

But the chemical companies pushing these genetically engineered seeds have powerful allies. It’s possible Dimas’ unprecedented decision will be overturned at the EU Commission meeting in early November.

A strong outcry of support from the public is needed to get the EU Commission to put the health of its citizens before the commercial interests of two chemical companies.

To help, send this message to Manuel Barroso, the President of the European Commission, and Commissioners Dimas, Kyprianou and Fischer-Boel."

"Dear European Commissioners,

I am writing to express my full support for the proposal of the EU's Environment Commissioner Stavros Dimas to reject the authorisation of the two varieties of GM (genetically modified) maize (Bt 11 and 1507) developed by the chemical companies Syngenta and Pioneer/Dow. Scientists have recently shown that these GMOs have negative impacts on the environment and can cause more damage than previously thought.

I urge you to take these scientific findings into consideration and to ensure that these risky crops, whose real consequences are unpredictable, will not be cultivated commercially in Europe. Such a precautionary approach would be in line with the stance of a growing number of EU Member States that have banned or suspended the cultivation of GMOs.

By rejecting these authorisations, the Commission would be acting in compliance with EU legislative requirements, namely implementing the precautionary principle and respecting the EU's provisions on risk assessment. The majority of European citizens have continuously stated that they do not want GMOs to be grown in Europe.

I expect the European Commission to put environmental safety and the health of its citizens before the commercial interests of two chemical companies.

I call on you to put the environment and health first and support the proposal by Commissioner Dimas not to authorise these new GM maize varieties."

Support the Greenpeace campaign:
http://www.greenpeace.org/international/getinvolved/support-dimas-on-maize

[halva]

Here are some comments from Rosalie Bertell:

(Who is Rosalie Bertell? http://www.ccnr.org/bertell_bio.html)

STATEMENT ON CHEMTRAILS BY NIKOS CHRYSOGELOS
OF THE GREEK ‘ECOGREENS’

I see that a conspiracy-type interpretation of pollution problems (This sets the tone for the critique. R. Bertell) is being propagated which is not connected to reality and probably based on ignorance of basic parameters of the movement of pollutants. The existence of a project which has been called “geoengineering” cannot be generalized, nor can linking all the pollution of the planet to a project which in any case if it were implemented or has been implemented would be implemented on a very limited scale. It seems exactly like the rumour that ecologists are releasing snakes, or lately – as we hear – also fleas! And everyone is sure that they have seen ecologists doing such things.

Of course one cannot generalize an individual project to the whole of pollution! I know of no one trying to do this. These bizarre examples seem to be attempting to discredit all sincere scientists who are trying to prevent military actions which harm people and the environment. R. Bertell.

Few go to the trouble of wondering if any such thing as geoengineering [Which is, of course, the reason for the U.N. ban against using weather as a weapon! Is the UN among those deranged people spoken about? R. Bertell] is feasible from the viewpoint of cost (astronomical expenses for breeding and releasing millions of snakes since everyone is absolutely certain that such a thing is real and not myth-making), result (how many people and how many cars must be on the move in the country as a whole since even in the smallest village everyone is sure that they have seen someone releasing snakes) and breeding facilities (where on earth could all these millions of snakes be bred?)…..

The tactics of discrediting people includes setting up “straw men” and then showing them to be absurd. This appears to be the aim of the author here. R. Bertell

Just think, then, that everyone sees “suspicious aircraft”, sees “smoke coming from the engines of aircraft”, sees analyses that indicate entire regions are being polluted. What could be….simpler than to believe that there is an international conspiracy that is spreading pollutants over the entire planet?

How could anyone claim to see the “entire planet”? Does this argument really falsify local and regional concerns? R. Bertell

In this way, I think, people’s interest is distracted from the real problem of pollution to deal with that we will have to take measures, change policies

By implication, I think the author means civilian policies. Clearly the military are outside of the civilian view and control. R. Bertell

to a supposed conspiracy (whereby we are not required to change much but simply denounce). In Greece, for example, we have, according to a World Health Organization (WHO) report, more than 2,500 deaths annually from particle pollution which is linked to contamination from bad practices, not to bombardment with chemicals from unknown aircraft. There are more than 3,000,000 deaths annually from atmospheric pollution, a number which is rapidly increasing (and because of the burgeoning economic growth in China – look at the figures for pollution in Beijing, the pollution clouds in Asia).

Since the prevailing winds in the northern hemisphere are from the west, it seems strange for someone in Greece to be worried about industrialization of China as a source of local pollution! R. Bertell

It is not difficult to find victims of lung cancer (which is linked directly to atmospheric pollution and also to smoking), problems of asthma – spastic bronchitis (a high incidence among children in Greece and in other countries, of course). In Germany in the eighties a big campaign on this subject was run by parents who achieved improvements in the atmospheric conditions in the cities.

Clearly there is an obligation to move the civilian economy toward “clean production”. This is a serious community health problem. However, this does not take away the equally serious inspection of military attempts to manipulate weather and climate to suit their purposes. We blame everything on the civilian economy to our own detriment! R. Bertell

Should we attribute the problem to “chemtrails” from unknown aircraft here or start a serious campaign better called military project R. Bertell)?

* *
*Myth number one: some aircraft without identification markings are spreading chemicals.* Nowadays there are excessively many aircraft. Quite a number of people have their own personal aircraft and the white trails are not necessarily mysterious but probably from private aircraft. Already there is fearful congestion in air corridors and the number of aircraft in circulation has undergone a quantum leap in recent years. It is enough just to read official reports to see the traffic chaos in the airways.

It is noticeable that “ordinary” jet exhaust remains in the air for some seconds while other exhaust remains there for hours. This is well documented.

‘Welsbach-Patent’ aimed at reducing the greenhouse effect through the dispersal of aluminium oxide particles and barium salts in the atmosphere. According to the text of the patent this triggers a reaction of the particles with the carbon dioxide gases, deflecting infrared radiation back into space. This is supposed to mitigate global warming without at the same time reducing carbon dioxide emissions. The procedure was developed by the scientists David Chang and I-Fu Shih in the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory in California, established by Edward Teller, father of the neutron bomb. In 1991 it was patented by the American Hughes Aerospace corporation (United States Patent number 5,003,186). In the meantime the company, which had been established by Howard Hughes, reorganized itself as Boeing Satellite Systems and it has become one of the key suppliers for the United States military and NASA. Between 1994 and 1998 Teller ordered pilot testing of the Welsbach systems, firstly over US territory and then over the territory of ‘friendly nations’. This statement is corroborated by Lieutenant-Colonel Michael Ruess, who is responsible for civilian liaison with the German Federal Armed Forces. He knows of experiments with metal oxides for climate research purposes over specific regions.

‘This concept of geoengineering is taken into account in our investigations,’ says the report, ‘because…it offers a potential approach for mitigating changes in the global climate’. Even the oft-noted ‘whitening’ of the heavens is mentioned - in connection with the possible risk of premature discovery of the spraying activity by the public: ‘Two of the key problems with earlier proposals were the potential impact on atmospheric chemistry, and the change in the ratio of direct to diffuse solar radiation, and the associated whitening of the visual appearance of the sky. The proposals of Teller el al. (1997) suggest that the location, scattering properties, and chemical reactivity of the scatterers could, in principle, be tuned to minimize both of these impacts.’ These paragraphs are quoted from William Thomas. ‘Chemtrails Confirmed’. New edition, 2004. Bridger House Publishers, USA.

[halva]

*Myth number two: many people have seen a chemical trail coming out of aircraft which does not disperse and is made up of the chemicals being sprayed into the atmosphere by all those who have organized the conspiracy.* I don’t understand how an average citizen, albeit with an ordinary level of scientific knowledge, not necessarily a chemist, cannot understand that depending on the atmospheric conditions the trail of pollution from the engines of aircraft engines, which burn kerosene and other additives, may be, or not be, visible. I remember from my childhood years the trails of aircraft in the sky being a sign of their passage if the atmospheric conditions permitted retention of the cloud of pollutants behind their engines. Certainly some aircraft are more advanced technologically and today pollute less. But most continue to pollute a great deal and I do not of course refer only to CO2 emissions (the greenhouse phenomenon). It is no coincidence that in the vicinity of airports and also in air corridors higher levels are recorded of certain pollutants. Just think of the photographs, and also the paintings, of ships sailing the seas and always leaving behind them a cloud of black smoke. Something similar happens in the atmosphere but atmospheric conditions do not always make it possible for this pollution to be visible. This does not mean that it is non-existent. When the conditions of temperature and humidity and the winds are favourable, the aerial pollutants can remain for quite a long time in the form of trails of cloud. So it is mostly a question of atmospheric conditions whether or not the polluting condensation trail is or is not visible.

These statements are true of course, but they do not take away from a new reality of military experiments with the environment. Nor do they prove that current experience of sky trails are exactly the same as were seen in the author’s youth. It is well documented the there are lead particles found on the ground along the landing and take-off paths from airports. R. Bertell

* **
*Myth number three. There are pollutants in the atmosphere and pollution can be detected in certain terrains. For example analyses of areas that had been burnt indicated the presence of heavy metals and other dangerous chemicals*. *It is the unidentified aircraft that are spraying the atmosphere with toxic substances and so the chemicals are being detected in various regions which are being bombarded with chemicals. *It is evident that we live in an era of increased pollution, which knows no boundaries or borders. This pollution is the result of industrial production, transport, burning of fossil fuels, the use of dangerous materials and also the implementation of bad practices (for example uncontrolled - or even controlled, in regulated installations, burning of refuse, aerial spraying of pesticides, etc.) The burning for example of plastics from various electrical appliances which contain organic bromine compounds result in release into the atmosphere of a series of bromine compounds. Just look on the internet at what is happening, also, in areas of China and Vietnam where they burn thousand of tons of electrical appliances from the U.S.A. and Europe (smaller quantities now because of implementation of new legislation) so as to extract from them the precious metals. The toxic clouds travel. They don’t remain in one place. There are compounds of bromine and chlorine in many products we use in our everyday life, not necessarily only in industrial production and agriculture.

Making the connection between pollutants in the ground and their source is indeed a problem. The same could be said of discovering the bacteria or virus which causes a particular disease when the body is full of viruses and bacteria. However, this distinction has been accomplished by scientists. This attitude of see the problem as impossible is not a scientific attitude. There is one main difference between the two situations, with respect to the bacteria and viruses there were not large corporations with a battery of lawyers claiming it was not their bacteria or viruses found in the patient. There are always disputes about the sources of pollution in the air, land or water, however, attributable proportions can be mathematically determined. R. Bertell

Research at the Crete Polytechnic indicates that even in the Aegean there are pollutants whose origin is not in having been sprayed from unidentified aircraft but from industrial and urban regions or Northern Europe, Central Europe and the Balkans. Our own industrial plants emit pollution into the Balkan region also. The dusts (microparticles) function as vehicles for other pollutants which are present in the atmosphere owing to a variety of different activities and are transformed into substances that are exceptionally dangerous to life and health. The clouds of dust (microparticles) convey the pollution over very great distances along different corridors which can only be approximately represented in the various dispersion models. The chemicals sprayed by farmers travel great distances with the wind and are detected very far away from their place of origin and in species with which they have not had immediate contact. In the sea too plastic - particularly small pieces of plastic – leach toxic substances, heavy metals and other pollutants and become even more dangerous for various forms of life.
The acid rain that has destroyed the forests and the lakes in Scandinavian countries (and in Germany) does not come only from those countries but in particular from Britain and other industrial regions. The presence of these pollutants was not the result of some indeterminate spraying of chemicals from unidentified aircraft. The chemical reactions which take place on the ground due to acid rain release aluminium and other chemical substances which damage plant life and weaken their immune system. An ordinary disease can thus find the immune system of the species weakened and kill the tree.

Another misunderstanding is that which links contamination of the soil, for example in areas recently burnt – but also in underground water, to a conspiracy. Research at the Crete Polytechnic and other research centres indicates the presence of heavy metals and other chemicals in the burnt regions and in the ash, but this probably comes from the burning of rubbish and more generally from the rubbish that was present in the areas, as well as the re-release into the environment of pollutants that had been retained in the forest trees – when the forests are burned it is again released into the atmosphere. In any case what is needed is greater research into the processes involved and not the conspiratorialist approach.

One must acknowledge that part of society, mainly the military sector, is highly secretive. It does not require a conspiratorialist approach to make one wonder what they are experimenting with in today’s world.

Nikos Chrysogelos, Athens, 14th November 2007

In my opinion, Dr. Nikos Chrysogelos, has given a very good description for the wasteful polluting of society in general and for the difficulty in discerning the particular cause of any such discovered pollution. However, he has failed to make any sense of the military experimentation which also adds to the burden of atmospheric, land and water pollution. We cannot blame everything we find of civilian activities and turn our heads away from the many toxic and destructive acitivities of the military. I commend those who are investigating this very real and admitted military atmospheric anomaly and trying to understand its deleterious effects. R. Bertell.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Rosalie Bertell's comments could be applied to Deborah/Foot Soldier. She astroturfs that nearly all of what we are witnessing is the result of ordinary commercial air traffic. That is why she is now known to be a debunker in chemmie clothes.

As to Halvar/"Wayne Hall" saying that I am TOTO and may41970, that says it all about him. There is no proof. All there is here is the technique of the "big lie."

This isn't about us as individuals anyways. It's about presenting the best evidence that chemtrails are real and widespread.

The Megasprayer is a disinformation website. Big Bunny and Deborah/Foot Soldier are trying to cover up chemtrail realities by focusing on ordinary aviation. They can copy and paste all they want. They can ignore the truths about chemtrails. But they have shot their load. Big Bunny made that infamous post about our "friendly neighborhood airports" consisting of "defacto spray planes."

Megasprayer is no different than Jay Reynolds other than that one side says the trails are dangerous while the other says they are a sign of peace and prosperity.

Halvar is really no different either from "Louis Aubuchont" with his propensity towards promoting strawmen for authentic chemtrails awareness.

[halva]

Would you like to critique someone who is in fact ON THE OTHER SIDE, "Jeff Reynolds", like Nikos Chrysogelos, for example?? Using your real name, of course.

[TOTO]

My point in putting the link to that alaska board here was because they are all done under anons . I do not presume that these are Lou ot the mod from CTC at all. I want to know if perhaps they are really Lou and that mod or if maybe this just might be Soc/Jeff himself using some one elses name as he has done in the past.
Maybe a memo from one mod/owner to others might help in the banning of him from many other sites...the point in that being that I and others like all of you here could post about things without being called names or attaked or be banned from them themself and not to be threatened, Also from what I have found out from some PMs at other boards is that their computers caught that a virus was put in them when they went to go on these sites right after Socrates/Jeff had it out with them. They were lucky that their computer caught this virus before it happened.
I am not in any way shape or form asking you all to do anything , I am just asking if this was indeed Lou and the mod from CTC or if it was not then you all would know that someone is using your names whe it is not you.
I and a few others are going to ask the mod from PI to put out that memo and I do hope she does and it HELPS everyone at all forums to be able to post without his bullshit and most of all without his threats or a computer virus.
I have only tried to bring some proff here such as that letter I found where Socrates states in his own words that he is May41970 and also Will Kane.
Would you want him to be allowed to keep this up if you were stalked bt him at all kinds of forums ? Would you like to be called a whore or a nigger ? Would you like when having a discussion about what is put in vaccines with a person have this POS Socrates come at you and take over this discussion and call you those kinds of names and stick in something he thinks you have said about chemtrails when you have never wrote one word about chemtrails because you do not know enough abit that issue and can not add to it ? These are the things that he has done and all I want is to HELP get it stopped ! So all may have a peaceful place to post and debte if wanted without these kinds of things happening.
Once again I do not presume anything I was just asking if it was Lou and that mod.
Peace to you all and good luck as it looks that some good srtives are being made.
TOTO

[Jeff Reynolds]

Would you like to critique someone who is in fact ON THE OTHER SIDE, "Jeff Reynolds", like Nikos Chrysogelos, for example?? Using your real name, of course.

You should know by now that I don't deal directly with trolls like yourself, "Wayne Hall."

[Jeff Reynolds]

Disinfo Nonsense

The more you fucks lie, the more credibility I gain. So whatever, disinfo bitch.

[halva]

You should know by now that I don't deal directly with trolls like yourself, "Wayne Hall."

More and more the people that are coming into these discussions are using their real names. Andrew Johnson even puts up his home address. I have never made any secret about my real name, which you yourself know is genuine. That is why you assert that it is not. There is a certain security to be had from behaving like that, if you can get away with it. Which at this forum you can. .

The fact of the matter is that you have descended to the same depths as Jay Reynolds, who was obliged to keep insisting against all the evidence that a former crazy poster here, though a model of seriousness by comparison with you - Gaiacomm - was in fact an inoffensive employee at a native-American reservation called Lance Haubrick. Jay Reynolds did this presumably to preserve solidarity with some of his idiot hangers on, who were making this absolutely baseless accusation, even prompting some of us - degradingly and disgustingly - to telephone the unfortunate Haubrick to check out the assertion.

In your case your only "hangers-on" are figments of your pathetic little imagination, but you preserve "your" solidarity with "them" in the same way.

This game of hide-and-seek with identities only occurs because we are still indulging people who choose to to keep it hidden who they are. In fact we are forced to do this because of the policy of the moderators here, which you have taken advantage of, and it must be very frustrating for you that you have not been able to take advantage of it more, to the extent of removing from the discussion the people you tirelessly, monotonously and unimaginatively slander.

Megasprayer remains your only victory, as far as I can see. But you are still hoping, against all the indications , for another. In the meantime sinking deeper and deeper into a disgrace which is moderated only by your anonymity.

[halva]

Lou says that he is getting out of both CTC and here because they refuse to expel Socrates.

There is always the option of reactivating http://halva.proboards46.com for anyone who is fed up with discussion being spoilt by fools and nutcases.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Lou says that he is getting out of both CTC and here because they refuse to expel Socrates.



That's ok, because "Louis Aubuchont" left plenty of proof already that he is a cointelpro fuck.
He endorsed Carol Rosin.
And he didn't get away with it.

If CTC bans me now, it will be for no good reason.
It will look so shady for them to do it when i have made the best posts.

I think "Lou" really fucked up bad this time.
He supported Carol Rosin of kooky chemtrail cointelpro fame.
"Lou" might have as well said, hey look here, i am a cointelpro agent. say hello to my disclosure project friend who fucked with dennis kucinich and the chemtrails.

and you look dumb too halvar. over time you have revealed yourself as a fake.

two nobodies took down ur whole fucking ship.
:cool:

[Jeff Reynolds]

In your case your only "hangers-on" are figments of your pathetic little imagination, but you preserve "your" solidarity with "them" in the same way.

This game of hide-and-seek with identities only occurs because we are still indulging people who choose to to keep it hidden who they are. In fact we are forced to do this because of the policy of the moderators here, which you have taken advantage of, and it must be very frustrating for you that you have not been able to take advantage of it more, to the extent of removing from the discussion the people you tirelessly, monotonously and unimaginatively slander.

Megasprayer remains your only victory, as far as I can see. But you are still hoping, against all the indications , for another. In the meantime sinking deeper and deeper into a disgrace which is moderated only by your anonymity.

Hey numbnut. people can see through the bullshit. where's ur proof that may41970 and toto are me? you look like ur in on all the convolution. you fucktards can try to circumscribe me into ur bullshit disinfo racket, but it's over. you can't compete with the chemtrail section at our forum.

don't get used to me answering you directly.
you know, it'll be like so many of the threads where you make some comments which get totally ignored.

Carol Rosin, "Lou Aubuchont," "Wayne Hall" you fuckers lost.
us real chemmies are untouchables.

what to expect now?
Lou- oh my back
Halvar- ouch with the neurological disorder
big bunny- alas, with the disabilitating chronic muscular illness, but every plane is a "defacto sprayer"
deborah- are the trails in the troposphere or the stratosphere Wayne, oops, that's what Jay says

You almost won. You almost knocked us out. But the truth won out.

Go to hell "Wayne Hall"

And you know what really took you shits down? It was this:
http://allaircraftarenotinvolved.freeforums.org/viewforum.php?f=1

[TOTO]

You know Jeffie / May / Socabigone I think you have finally lost it big time.
All the SPAM you put out on here tonite was done by a fucking madman.
I saw all the SPAM you put on at the alaska board also you fuck twad.
Sorry to all the other NORMAL people here for the french but I have had it with this asswipe loon .
Give it up you fucking little crazy ass mamas boy !
You are so jelous of anyone else that you just have to be the king well guess what you stupid idiot you made it YOU are now the KING OF THE FUCKING LOONS.
Someone needs to come take your ass away in a straighjacket and fast .
You won the prize ok you are the KING of doddle shit .
Halva made great strides for this issue where as you made only loon attacks on people.
I now know that you have LOST it big time that is if you ever had it to begin with which I doubt.
Why dont you go crawl back to your own HOLE or run on hme and cry to your Mama
Just get the FUCK out of peoples faces you PUNK !
In all my days I have never seen anyone as fucking crazy as you are .
Get a clue you fuck tard GO AWAY NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY WITH YOU OK YOU LITTLE TURD
aND i DONT GIVE A RATS ASS IF i GET BANNED FOR THIS IF THE MOD AT THIS BOARD ALLOWS THIS MORON TO GET AWAY WITH THIS KIND OF SHIT THEN HE/SHE CAN HAVE ALL THE LOONEYS HE/SHE WANTS...THIS IS INSANE WHAT HE IS DOING

YOU HAVE YOUR WON PLACE TO RANT ON WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BOTHER SO MANY OTHER BOARDS WITH YOUR CRAP ? GO ON YOU SYBIL GET ON BACK TO YOUR HOLE OR I WILL MAKE THIS A MISSION OF MINE TO GET YOU BANNED FROM ANY AND EVERY WHERE YOU ARE...HOW DARE YOU THREATEN PEOPLE.
OH I HAVE COPIED EVERY THREAT YOU HAVE MADE AD I WILL SEND ALL OF THEM OUT ALL OVER THE INTERNET TO EVERY FUCKING CORNER OF THE WORLD OH WAIT THAT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED .
sORRY TO TE REST OF YOU BUT i CAN NOT BELIEVE THAT THIS INSANE THING EVEN HAS THE NERVE TO SHOW HIS FACES HAHAHA ALL OF THEM AT ANY BOARD.
HEY STUPID PEOPLE WANT TO HAVE A CIVIL DISCUSSION WITHOUT YOUR BULLSHIT
SO GO BE KING OF THE LOONS AT YOUR PLACE !!!
PISS OFF BOY

[halva]

Toto all you achieve with posts like this is to make people think you are another identity of "Socrates" or"Jeff Reynolds" or "May41970".

[TOTO]

You know Halva I hear you but there just does not seem to be a right or a wrong way to respond.
I came on here late so I could take some time and try to reread some of the posts that you have put up and try to understand the importance of what you have found.
If they put the poison in all the vaccines why would they not put it in the air ? So I was just trying to come here to see if I could get a better understanding of it all.
Then all I saw was the 50 million posts of SPAM on here and I realized that he has lost it totallly and it made me so mad that once again he has made a mess of a forum with this kind of loony behavior .
I am sick of it and I lost my temper . I did apologize to the rest of you all for the french I used.
What I do not understand is why he is allowed to keep doing this here and at some other forums although not so many any more thank goodness but still what about therights of others that do not want to put up with this anymore and want to just read in peace ?
Well as you say to what good will it do .
TOTO

[halva]

There is a logic to the behaviour of the moderators of this forum and it is the same as the logic of US government policy generally.

Jeff Reynolds is pissed that he can't make use of it to get other people thrown off.

[TOTO]

I see so in other words nothing will be done .
Well my thinking is that he is as my Mama used to say "pee green with jelousy"
I think that your find was just to much for him to bear so at this point he can only act like this at two forums this one and the alaska one.
Which is exactally what is happening at both. His temper tantroms are here and at that one also.
But once again your friend and you found a great vid and getting some of the higher ups attention is a good stride so I congradulate you.
I apologize for the moment of lashing out at that wacko to all but him. To him I ment every word.
Now back to trying to follow along with some of this.
TOTO

[TOTO]

I see so in other words nothing will be done .
Well my thinking is that he is as my Mama used to say "pee green with jelousy"
I think that your find was just to much for him to bear so at this point he can only act like this at two forums this one and the alaska one.
Which is exactally what is happening at both. His temper tantroms are here and at that one also.
But once again your friend and you found a great vid and getting some of the higher ups attention is a good stride so I congradulate you.
I apologize for the moment of lashing out at that wacko to all but him. To him I ment every word.
Now back to trying to follow along with some of this.
TOTO

[may41970]

"Lou" says:

Obviously 'socrates' must be a Jew to have gotten so bent out of shape over a thread on Jewry.

and May41970 says:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller

And Halva, you have now stated unequivocally, more than once, that socrates and I are the same person. You claim that it is 100% true. If you want to save whatever credibility you may have left.....you should retract it and restate that you are expressing an opinion - not an irrefutable fact.

Believe it or not, I'm suggesting this to help you.

may41970

http://allaircraftarenotinvolved.freeforums.org/

[halva]

I couldn't give a damn how many people you are.

[TOTO]

Give it up ASSHATS / YOU LOST
Submitted by Anonymous on Sun, 11/18/2007 - 17:12.Show/Hide
Give it up ASSHATS, you lost, I WON, You FOCKERS got your ASSES kicked by a nobody, what a bunch of STUPID, HOMOPHOBIC, RACIST ASSFACES.

Where is your ASSHOLE leader Ender / Jay Reynolds and that slimy foul mouth BITCH RED DOT now you pathetic SHITBAGS, I don't see them spewing their sick BULLCRAP anymore, did he get banned or something, isn't that a shame.

You ASSHOLES are as stupid as some of those FOCKING CHEMMIES that I am going to get just like I did with you ASSHATS but I will be keeping an eye on you and don't forget it or the next time I might just shut this whole FOCKING SITE DOWN.

Cheers ASSHATS

The real socrates
http://www.allaircraftarenotinvolved.freeforums.org

[TOTO]

TO THE MODERATOR HERE AT DBS
ABOVE I POSTED ANOTHER THREAT THAT SOCRATES KNOWN HERE AS JEFF REYNOLDS
IS MAKING TO CHEMTRAIL POSTERS AT ANOTHER WEBSITE.
ALONG WITH ALL THE SPAM AND THE RANTS HE LEFT HERE LAST NITE ALONG WITH THREAT ALSO I WOULD THINK THAT YOU WOULD PUT A STOP TO THIS RIGHT AWAY.
OTHER FORUMS HAVE BEEN SMART ENOUGH TO BAN HIM FOR THIS KIND OF THING SO OTHER POSTERS CAN HAVE A DISCUSSION IN PEACE WITHOUT THREATS ,SPAM AND THEIR PERSONAL INFORMATION PUT ON THE INTERNET. ALONG WITH THE NAME CALLING AND ALL THE OTHER THINGS HE CONYINUES TO BE ALLOWED TO DO HERE AT YOUR SITE AND ONLY ONE OTHER THAT I KNOW OF.
PLEASE LOOK INTO THIS MATTER ASAP .
I WOULD LIKE TO AS I AM SURE ALL THE OTHER POSTERS HERE ALSO WOULDLIKE TO HAVE A PEACEFUL AND NON THREATENING PLACE TO HOLD DISCUSSIONS AT.
TOTO

[Jeff Reynolds]

The "all aircraft" forum must be pretty good if paid cointelpro fucks are studying our writing styles and going apeshit with it all over the internet. whatever. people would have to be pretty stupid to fall for it. It's just noise. It's just Lou AnnAngryBitch Aubuchont and his company.

[halva]

Toto do you have another subject you would like to discuss other than Jeff Reynolds?

[halva]

Dialogue with Philip Dragoumis of the Greek Ecogreens

Concerning the discussion on chemtrails, all I could add at the moment is a question mark.

I am not in favour that the chemtrails should be at the moment a "flag" issue of any official Green campaign, not until there is definite proof. I fully understand Nikos Chrysogelos's serious doubts and his choice of priorities. There are so many proven issues of pollution which need to be dealt with first, before dealing with a suspicion, however serious it may be if true. There can be no campaign if nobody knows for sure who is doing this, who is financing the spraying, before we definitely know who and why is causing the problem. All there should be at the moment is more research on the matter of pollution by airplanes in general which may prove or disprove the issue of chemtrails.

However, considering Dimas' response to Gregoris Maltezos, there should now be a question mark in everybody's mind, which definitely needs an answer.

So, Stavros Dimas should be questioned again, to clarify what he meant in more detail and be more direct about it as he seems to know more than he admits, at least reading through his words.

After this second answer by Dimas-- should be an official one--, the discussion could be carried out on a more firm basis.

The Green Party should not be asked to campaign or have an opinion on this issue. All that "enouranois" should ask for, is that the Greens (not necessarily the Greek Greens) pose a question, based on the strange reply of Stavros Dimas.

Philip Dragoumis

5. Reply

The Elliniki Etaireia (Hellenic Society for the Protection of Nature) says that we won’t get any further official elaboration or explanation from Stavros Dimas. If they are correct, this means we will have to make do with what we already have extracted from him..

I signed the Greenpeace petition supporting Dimas on the genetically modified maize issue, and asked a lot of other people to do the same. I think he obviously should be supported where he deserves it.

But on the issue of “chemtrails”, the conclusion from years of activism is that we are going to have to establish our own “transparency”, if we can.

There appear to be real difficulties with the idea of the “search for proof” as the exclusive or even main axis of strategy.

Intentional pollution is covered by different laws to pollution which is the “incidental” side effect of other, particularly economic, activity. Acknowledgement that one is engaged in intentional pollution means leaving oneself open to lawsuits, including politically motivated lawsuits from “sceptics” and the lobbies that support them. This is one aspect of the mechanism that is keeping the “sceptics” in the driver’s seat.

Take a look at this short video of a lecture by David Keith, who is one of the best-known protagonists of “geoengineering”:

A surprising idea for solving climate change
http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/192

Like Nobel-Prize winner Paul Crutzen, David Keith is on record as saying to the media that he would like to see ideas like the spraying of sulphate aerosols in the upper atmosphere “shocking” the public into a realization that climate change is very, very serious.

He has also said one has to keep saying that geoengineering is NOT the most desirable solution to climate change. If it is sold to the public as a “solution” this will take the pressure off the fossil fuel lobbies to stop promoting technologies that exacerbate global warming..

But what happens when citizens responding to the evidence of their senses, and eventually even parliamentarians, conclude that geoengineering ideas are not just ideas and are already being implemented, on a huge scale?

They are told by official spokespersons, including Commissioner Dimas, that their fears and suspicions are without basis.

How can this official stance be of any assistance in promoting the “shocking” effect on the public that Crutzen, Keith and others claim they want to generate? Its effect is the opposite.

It is only citizens coming into this situation as innocent, uncompromised, bystanders, that can play the “shocking” role.

Geoengineering theorists have to be asked this question? What kind of grass-roots action and discourse do you want to see, particularly if you really are reluctant to embark on - or have embarked reluctantly on - global aerosol spraying programmes……..: the politics of denial as articulated by Nikos Chrysogelos, along with innumerable other ecologists and Greens, and by official spokespersons everywhere??. Or the Enouranois politics of analysis and exposure??

Wayne Hall

[halva]

Last night I was with company in a quite ordinary taverna in Athens when the President of Cyprus, along with the famous (in Greece, Israel and elsewhere) singer George Dalaras, and some other people, walked in and sat at the next table.

They started talking to each other, ordering a meal, drinking, laughing, etc... A couple of security guys took up position at a nearby table. They were not really needed, though. In Greece nobody who did not know these celebrities personally would think of going up and talking to them, or otherwise trying to attract their attention.

Not unless something very serious was at stake.

Is it my imagination that this is a difference between the mentality of Greeks and of Americans?

[halva]

Notification from the distinguished mainstream Greek television journalist Stelios Kouloglou that he is examining the chemtrails issue. Kouloglou's audience is among politicised intellectuals and the most advanced elements of the political class. He is something very different from Chardavelas, who caters for a more populist audience of conspiracy buffs and cultists.

[jayreynolds]

Wayne, all these Machiavellian Machinations you have internalized and now revealed publicly show us your true nature. Your paranoia knows no limits, dude, and it's eating you up inside. You see monsters under every bedstead and skeletons in every closet. To everyone else, these Greeks with incomprehensible names mean nothing, your fears appear frivolous, and your self-importance inflated.

Who gives a hoot, man?

What have you done for us lately?

Where's the beef?

[may41970]

Halva, this is probably a stupid question, but here goes:

Have you ever heard of a chemtrails activist that lives in Greece who goes by the name of "Wayne Hall?" Have you ever met him? Can you tell us anything about him?

thanks in advance


may41970

[halva]

I suggest that you two talk to each other. I don't propose to say anything to either of you.

Why don't you nail May41970 for multiple-identity posting, Jay Reynolds?

[halva]

American posters be warned.

Any American who posts at this forum will be attacked by one of the two individuals above, Jay Reynolds or May41970, under one or more of his various identities.

If you are sick of hearing about events in Greece, bear this fact in mind.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Give it up ASSHATS / YOU LOST
Submitted by Anonymous on Sun, 11/18/2007 - 17:12.Show/Hide
Give it up ASSHATS, you lost, I WON, You FOCKERS got your ASSES kicked by a nobody, what a bunch of STUPID, HOMOPHOBIC, RACIST ASSFACES.

Where is your ASSHOLE leader Ender / Jay Reynolds and that slimy foul mouth BITCH RED DOT now you pathetic SHITBAGS, I don't see them spewing their sick BULLCRAP anymore, did he get banned or something, isn't that a shame.

You ASSHOLES are as stupid as some of those FOCKING CHEMMIES that I am going to get just like I did with you ASSHATS but I will be keeping an eye on you and don't forget it or the next time I might just shut this whole FOCKING SITE DOWN.

Cheers ASSHATS

The real socrates
http://www.allaircraftarenotinvolved.freeforums.org

TOTO is cyberstalking. He makes up stuff too.

[halva]

Jeff Reynolds could also start a fruitful dialogue with May41970.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Wayne, all these Machiavellian Machinations you have internalized and now revealed publicly show us your true nature. Your paranoia knows no limits, dude, and it's eating you up inside. You see monsters under every bedstead and skeletons in every closet. To everyone else, these Greeks with incomprehensible names mean nothing, your fears appear frivolous, and your self-importance inflated.

Who gives a hoot, man?

What have you done for us lately?

Where's the beef?

Hi cousin, funny how you show up right after "Lou Aubuchont" makes his escape from the internet.
So Jay, ever been to Maine?

[Jeff Reynolds]

I suggest that you two talk to each other. I don't propose to say anything to either of you.

Why don't you nail May41970 for multiple-identity posting, Jay Reynolds?

So Halva, you are in on the cyberstalking too?
Maybe you want to step back from partaking in this.
I am gonna try to see if there is a way to uncover names of cyberstalkers.

So Halva, are you in fact Wayne Hall from Greece?

[Jeff Reynolds]

People should plug in "Lou Aubuchont" into google. But be careful going to the link. It is a joke link which wants to download something. What's up with that website, here are tons of links for geocities/davekelley or whatever it is. david kelley, dave, i forget.

how does something like that turn up #1 on google search engines?

[Jeff Reynolds]

Jeff Reynolds could also start a fruitful dialogue with May41970.

But you are saying along with the other cyberstalkers that we are the same person.

We have done tremendous work exposing internet fakes.
that's why we get harrassed so much.

ha, jay reynolds shows up right on schedule. too funny.

hey check this out: a SeanGar shows up at a boston globe patriots message board.
it looks like lou, jay, ender, etc. i say lou because the topics include homophobia and flag burning ala annangrybitch, it's got the use of fonts, italics, colors, etc. of an ender, jay, and lou.

is this why lou deleted all his ctc posts?
is this why ender and co. at wrh had all their posts deleted?

and cousin Jay, i have proof that terry stewart never spoke with military personell about chemtrails or contrails. is there a reason you never made a simple phone call? all that "reporting" you did, and you never debunked that story?







So apparently even sports boards are not even safe from paid trolls.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Wayne, all these Machiavellian Machinations you have internalized and now revealed publicly show us your true nature. Your paranoia knows no limits, dude, and it's eating you up inside. You see monsters under every bedstead and skeletons in every closet. To everyone else, these Greeks with incomprehensible names mean nothing, your fears appear frivolous, and your self-importance inflated.

Who gives a hoot, man?

What have you done for us lately?

Where's the beef?

right on schedule, Jay?
And let's watch as you yet again ignore the tough questions.
Why didn't you ever call up Terry Stewart?
and don't act dumb.

sorry i missed you at thanksgiving. it's a fascist holiday, so i don't participate. plus, you know i don't like to be at the family get-togethers when u are there. What Aunt Edna sees in you has got me scratching my head. guess blood is really thicker than water.

Oh yeah, did you see that Lou posts as AnnAngryBitch? My memory might be off if you responded on that. Yeah Lou posted as an AnnAngryBitch, he wrote something homophobic and about flag burning, as if he was a paid astroturfer. He wrote as Lou and as annangrybitch too on one thread i found. now who would do that? Who would write as two separate usernames on the same thread? Who does that kind of thing? Someone who is paid to post?

[jayreynolds]

and cousin Jay, i have proof that terry stewart never spoke with military personell about chemtrails or contrails. is there a reason you never made a simple phone call? all that "reporting" you did, and you never debunked that story?.

I did speak to Stewart.

Ok, you say you have some proof.

Bring it on..........!

Why do you chemmies always withold your claimed "proof" ?

You and Thomas share tactics,eh?

History shows those who withold claimed "proof" are bluffers and liars.

After a time, they are recognized for what they are, and their motivations become clear.

Claimed proof without ever showing it is worse than being disproven, man, don't you people get it?

Eventually the truth catches up with you and it doesn't look good.

[Jeff Reynolds]

I did speak to Stewart.

Ok, you say you have some proof.

Bring it on..........!

Why do you chemmies always withold your claimed "proof" ?

You and Thomas share tactics,eh?

History shows those who withold claimed "proof" are bluffers and liars.

After a time, they are recognized for what they are, and their motivations become clear.

Claimed proof without ever showing it is worse than being disproven, man, don't you people get it?

Eventually the truth catches up with you and it doesn't look good.

http://allaircraftarenotinvolved.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=134

Where's ur proof that you exposed the Terry Stewart story?

[Jeff Reynolds]

Jay, i can see through this closed-minded debunker/crazy believer script. Part of its purpose is to put some of the good debunking into ur side of the script, like with Carol Rosin, and then only briefly, because the script tries to get "chemmies" to scroll past ur shit.

yourselves in the script wanted urself to be the one to expose Lou. unfortunately for you, it was myself and may41970 that got the job done as regards to Will Thomas and Aubuchont, thus, those scams have been exposed with out being used insidiously from ur side to argue that chemtrails are contrails.

same thing with megasprayer and deborah/the big bunny scam saying that all planes are defact spray planes. megasprayer and urself are arguing the same thing, u are both in the debunker camp of the script. only difference, they say the contrails are bad, u say they are signs of peace and prosperity.

[Jeff Reynolds]

also cousin Jay, how come you never exposed the different versions of Deep Sky?
http://allaircraftarenotinvolved.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=56

and can you find workable links of satellite shots of Maine for the Deep Sky dates. i can't seem to find any.

[Jeff Reynolds]

i guess Jay has to think about these things.
when good points are made, they either get ignored or there is a very long delay until some dumbass response is made.

[Jeff Reynolds]

what i'm saying Jay is that ur debunking of the deep sky didn't really satisfy the burden of proof as much as it should have. where are the photos and videos of the 370 trails located. who is Lou Aubuchont? Is there proof that he is even a real person. I can see that Thomas and Brendt are real, but where is the proof that Lou Aubuchont is a real person?

[Jeff Reynolds]

And Jay, why don't u ever debunk the top section of my forum?
Is it because u can't? Because you don't want to draw attention to the proof there?

And please, if u do try, please try to debunk the best evidence there and not go for our weakest links.

The retraction of the Terry Stewart hoax shows that "all aircraft are not involved" is in search of the truth, no matter what it is.

[halva]

Keep it up, Jeff Reynolds. Who knows, you may even have succeeded in driving your shitty namesake away. Go for your life.

Having brought him here in the first place with your badmouthing of Lou you can at least also embarrass him into leaving. But then what? You have nothing to propose.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Questions For Halva

*** When did you first hear of chemtrails, when did you first witness them, and when did you decide to write about them?
*** Is your real name Wayne Hall?
*** When did you move from Australia to Greece, and why?
*** Are you an ex-patriate of Australia and why?

As to Jay Reynolds, I have never had a problem kicking his ass in debate.
And unlike both of you, I am not part of this script.

[Jeff Reynolds]

As for "Louis Aubuchont," there is no proof that he is a real person.
Also, I have come across more falsehoods/discrepancies about Will Thomas.
He wrote that "Lou" was Brendt's husband. He also wrote that Terry Stewart
informed The Vancouver Courier that he had spoken to military personnel,
when in fact Will Thomas was the source of the hoax for Whitley Strieber.
Also, I have located where you have spoken about chemtrails as being
placed in the stratosphere. You and Reynolds are actors in a script.

It's over. Your mind games and threats don't scare me.

[halva]

Questions For Halva

*** When did you first hear of chemtrails, when did you first witness them, and when did you decide to write about them?
*** Is your real name Wayne Hall?
*** When did you move from Australia to Greece, and why?
*** Are you an ex-patriate of Australia and why?

As to Jay Reynolds, I have never had a problem kicking his ass in debate.
And unlike both of you, I am not part of this script.

I would not under normal circumstances mind answering these questions if I knew who was asking them.

[halva]

Perhaps you will be left alone here now as the sole poster. I would not mind that.

[Jeff Reynolds]

It sounds like you are scared to answer those questions or need more time to figure out the best answer. It's not my fault you contradicted yourself earlier in your posting history.

And I called Jay Reynolds' bluff, and he has disappeared too. He has no record of exposing the Terry Stewart hoax, does he? I came up with proof. I didn't need hours to fudge an answer.

I'll make this simple for you Halvar.
Are you Wayne Hall?
When did you become aware of chemtrails?
When did you first see chemtrails?
When did you decide to write about them?
Why did you say chemtrails were being sprayed in the stratosphere?

Also, I read that you had years of experience in the ecological millieu before getting involved in chemtrails. Ok, I thought you said you were anti-nuclear. Is that what is meant by experience in the ecological millieu?

Ok, don't answer whether you are Wayne Hall. Obviously even if you have never said you are Wayne Hall, others have called you that and you've never denied it.

You can ask me anything you want about what I have posted.
Why you scared to answer questions about what you have posted?


And Jay, we are still waiting for your expose on Terry Stewart. I showed you my proof. Where is your?


You fockers have been served!

[Jeff Reynolds]

Jay Reynolds, Wayne Hall/Halva, "Lou Aubuchont," and many others are simply fakes involved in an insidious script to corrupt chemtrails awareness. The proof has mounted to such a degree, that they are simply out of outs as regards to credibility.

Jay Reynolds has had plenty of time to come up with proof that he exposed Terry Stewart. At the least, I have shown my proof, and he should retract what he said about me. When fakes get busted, they tend to go away or try to change the subject. All "Aubuchont" and the rest of the fakes like Halvar have had against me are untrue ad hominems that I am disinfo. While they talk a lot of crap in between their gibberish tinfoil and closed-minded debunking, myself and a few others have exposed the internet fakery and proven the existence of chemtrails.

Here is more proof of the script that none of these fakes, including Jay Reynolds, want you to know about. He only debunks when it serves his purpose of making fun of "chemmies." I debunk as to give credibility to the fact that chemtrails are real. Big difference. They cannot fake soul. They are now officially toast as regards to their lame, convoluted script.

I have located multiple sources of a story by Will Thomas which had the same title of his chemtrail book. This is one of those rare instances where the chemtrails disinfo has founf its way into the main chemtrails section. I first saw this posted at Chemtroll Central. The following is taken from an Indymedia source. While I am happy to have gotten some of my chemtrail ideas across to Jeff, I am even happier that I have been able to get across to him how much convolution there is on the internet pertaining to chemtrails. This was posted at CTC in March, 2002, and in June, 2002 at Portland Indymedia. Since Will Thomas has deleted all of his chemtrails articles from his past websites, it leads me to believe he knows he has been busted and that he is hoping this will all go away.

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2002/06/12850.shtml
Chemtrails Confirmed
by Will Thomas

Will wrote that S.T. Brendt helped count the 370 chemtrails outside of the radio building, yet that contradicts what he wrote in the book. He also wrote here that "Lou Aubuchont" was Brendt's husband.



Will Thomas seems to have made so many mistakes, that it appears he made them on purpose. It appears that he wasn't content just writing up an alleged story with alleged witnesses and events. Here below is more proof that Will Thomas is a hack at best and something very insidious at worst. He wrote in this article that "Terry Stewart told the Vancouver Courier (Aug. 15, 2001) that his information confirming the Canada-U.S. military exercise came directly from CFB Comox." But we know from the info above that the newspaper got its info from Whitley Strieber who wrote that an audiotape of Terry Stewart was given to Will Thomas.



For those interested in learning more about major discrepancies with Thomas' work with the "Deep Sky" hoax, be sure to check out the threads in the chemtrails are kooky section.

[Jeff Reynolds]

*** The Vancouver Courier article written by Brunet was a hack piece.


Terry Stewart, Airport Planning and Environment manager for the Victoria Airport Authority, became an unwitting puppet of conspiracy theorists last December, when Victoria resident Mark Porter phoned him demanding to know why intricate exhaust trails were appearing over the B.C. capital. Stewart phoned Canadian Forces Base Comox for information, and on Dec. 8, left this message on Porter's answering machine: "From what I gather, it's a military exercise, a U.S. and Canada Air Force exercise that's going on. They wouldn't give me any specifics on it. Hope that helps your interest."

Brunet made it seem like the story was true, that Terry Porter did speak with Base Comox.
Then what's up with this below? Where did this come from?


Since then, Stewart has been pestered not only by callers alerting him to exhaust trails over their neighbourhoods, but theorists congratulating him for supporting their cause. "Chemtrails has become the bane of my existence," he says. "It's caused nothing but embarrassment. My uncle in L.A. even phoned me one night to say that a late night talk show host mentioned my name in his monologue. And I may be getting paranoid, but the last few times I visited the U.S., the border guards really grilled me and made me cool my heels, as if they suspected me of being a whacko." Stewart pauses briefly. "You know what really kills me? We have nothing to do with what goes on in the stratosphere. The Victoria Airport Authority is concerned only with what goes on at ground level."

Where did Brunet get those quotes? I don't see them in Strieber's article.
Check out this next quote:


...Thomas's inclination is to avoid debate, but he points out that as a public servant, he is duty-bound to take every call seriously. So is Arndt, Stewart and officials at the Vancouver Airport Authority, who declined to discuss the topic other than to acknowledge they deal with chemtrail inquiries.

So what's up with this Robin Brunet who wrote for the Vancouver Courier? Did he write like a senior in high school or is this dude a product of Operation Mockingbird? Or is he related to the owner of the newspaper?



*** Whitley Strieber? He was always the weak link because of his reputation as Mr. Tinfoil. But at least he wrote that it was an alleged story.



Strange Contrails Over Victoria, B.C.
An answering machine tape recently given to chemtrails researcher Will Thomas's Lifeboat News Service includes a message allegedly from the Victoria, British Columbia Airport Authority's Manager for Airport Planning and Environment to city resident Mark Porter, who had inquired about unusual contrail formations being seen in the sky over the city. It seems to confirm that controversial "chemtrails" are being spread over that city as a joint U.S.-Canadian military operation.

The real weak link, though, now resides with Will Thomas. We all wanted to believe in the dude, that hat he was an intrepid reporter seeking truth and justice. Yet, he wrote that his source was the Vancouver paper. The paper said the source was Whitley Strieber. Strieber said the source was Will Thomas. I'm disgusted. It's because of creeps like Will Thomas that disinfo astroturfers such as Jay Reynolds and "Lou Aubuchont" have been able to obfuscate chemtrail truths for close to a decade.

[kola]

Jeffyboy,

When did you finally realize that your very small penis was actually just an oversized clitoris?

Good luck with the sex change surgery. You'll be a better man..umm, I mean woman..

Kola

[Jeff Reynolds]

The Jeff I was referring to above is Jeff Ferrell of KSLA TV-12, who has been warned about the disinfo. So if by chance he reads at a forum and sees something written by the evil Kola, Will Thomas, Jay Reynolds, et al, he will know what I was talking about.

Thanks for being a dumbass spook Kola, you have proven with every post that you are a scripted fake. You can't fake soul.

[TOTO]

Could anyone here put me in touch with the owner of CTC ? A group of people have a lot of evidence to show him regarding certain posters known to some as FUI /Jeff Reynolds /Socrates/ May41970/Will Kane/NotEd etc . All this evidance has been turned over to the proper autorities and the Boston office is being alerted.
Socrates has threatened the owner of CTC with legal action even though he has no action at all. But this group that I am working with hs plenty of evidence that proves that Socrates has broken laws.
So we would be very interested in talking and showing this evidance to the owner of CTC so he/she can be relieved of any so called legal actions against him or his website or to any of the posters on that siye along with this one....The law reads that the only crime that can and will be prosocuted is if a person threatens another or property. Socrotes has done both. Now he is acting like the victim ? And he is threatening legal action HAHAHA
Please let me know here or by PM if anyone knows of how to get in touch with the owner of CTC as I am sure he would not onlly like to see this evidance but also like to know what the autorities are doing about Socrates and May41970 and other alaisis.
Thank you in advance
TOTO

[halva]

It's not only a question of breaking laws. I was suspended from this forum when one of my postings was interpreted as a demand for revelation of "Jeff Reynolds, etc. etc." identity or a threat of some undetermined consequences if he didn't do so. So protecting the anonymity of posters is one of the basic policies of this forum. It is evidently basic to what appears to be their overall purpose of monitoring all ideas and opinions afloat in the community, even the most disgraceful and antisocial ones.

And now here is "Jeff Reynolds" violating that principle, without so much as a reprimand so far.

It's not that I give a damn about protecting my own anonymity. I have never made any secret of the fact that my name is Wayne Hall. My photo is on-line at
http://tinyurl.com/37m2y2

(fifth name from bottom, second photograph from bottom)
in a catalogue of Greek ecological writers published by the Evonymos Library in Athens.

I can even be seen on the balcony of my own house at the opening of this documentary:
http://www.enouranois.gr/video/monoaggliko.wmv

But does an anonymous poster have any "right" to demand proof of identity from others? If anyone wants to take up the question of "Jeff Reynolds'" infringement of the rules of this forum in this respect also, I have no objection.

[halva]

Lou's decision to leave rather than go into defensive mode in response to this kind of input is ENTIRELY understandable.

But if this boy has finally achieved his life ambition of driving away Jay Reynolds so that he rather than someone else can claim the glory, this makes his day.

He will now focus on driving away others who SHOULD NOT be driven away.

And he will fill up these threads with a babble of monotonous gossip.

[Jeff Reynolds]

It's not only a question of breaking laws. I was suspended from this forum when one of my postings was interpreted as a demand for revelation of "Jeff Reynolds, etc. etc." identity or a threat of some undetermined consequences if he didn't do so.

Just keep the personal threats out, and everything's good.


And now here is "Jeff Reynolds" violating that principle, without so much as a reprimand so far.


Tou have been the one signing your posts as Wayne Hall. I just wanted to make sure. All I wanted was a confirmation of the obvious that you have always shared with us.



But does an anonymous poster have any "right" to demand proof of identity from others? If anyone wants to take up the question of "Jeff Reynolds'" infringement of the rules of this forum in this respect also, I have no objection.[/QUOTE]

I was just asking for confirmation that you sign off as Wayne Hall.

Now why won't you answer these basic questions.
You can ask me anything about whatever I have ever posted.
That is only fair.

When did you become aware of chemtrails?
When did you first see chemtrails?
When did you decide to write about them?
Why did you say chemtrails were being sprayed in the stratosphere?


Thanks. Answer those and you can ask me about anything you want.

By the way, I think they probably are spraying in the stratosphere, but the chemtrails we see are in the troposphere to upper troposphere. To say what we are viewing is in the statosphere isn't correct or is misleading.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Lou's decision to leave rather than go into defensive mode in response to this kind of input is ENTIRELY understandable.

But if this boy has finally achieved his life ambition of driving away Jay Reynolds so that he rather than someone else can claim the glory, this makes his day.

Yes, I kicked his ass, always have. That's why he has ignored me for the most part.



He will now focus on driving away others who SHOULD NOT be driven away.

And he will fill up these threads with a babble of monotonous gossip.

Not necessarily.
Maybe for Foot Soldier's.

Your thread I haven't really touched.
And I have had threads where I got trolled, even when it had nothing to do with themselves, and I was providing good proof for the existence of chemtrails.

But if you can't answer those basic questions, I guess you have something to hide.

When did you become aware of chemtrails?
When did you first see chemtrails?
When did you decide to write about them?
Why did you say chemtrails were being sprayed in the stratosphere?

[Jeff Reynolds]

Lou's decision to leave rather than go into defensive mode in response to this kind of input is ENTIRELY understandable.

The Deep Sky and Will Thomas doesn't add up. Sorry.
And Lou talking about wiping clouds out with his mind, and about the use of orgone, and then he starts talking up ufo's and Carol Rosin who hurt chemtrails awareness.

How can you support a bill draft that included the phrase extra-terrestrial weapons to go with chemtrails.?

Debate fair Halva, you know that's fucked up.
And I have proven that Will Thomas is a hack.
Time for you to debate fair or be looked on as part of the chemtrails are kooky script.

[Jeff Reynolds]

If you answer those questions and debate fair, I'll take a look at that Greek chemtrails post again, just re-link it.

[halva]

I'm not getting involved in any exchanges with you. Perhaps some of the others might want to play with you. See if you can get Jay Reynolds to come back so that you can drive him away again and show what a hero you are.

[Jeff Reynolds]

I'm not getting involved in any exchanges with you. Perhaps some of the others might want to play with you. See if you can get Jay Reynolds to come back so that you can drive him away again and show what a hero you are.

Predictable. You won't say when you first heard of chemtrails, witnessed them, and decided to write about them because your first posts at Chemtroll Central don't add up. Fake.

[halva]

There can be a role for the "bad boy" in politics, but when it comes to educating oneself, to be a bad boy is simply a disadvantage. If you cannot understand that the strategy you used against Jay Reynolds and against Lou (unjustly, but I cannot do anything about that) cannot also be used against Footsoldier, then you will never be any use to anybody, including yourself.

[halva]

A Greek journalist tells me today that she lodged a complaint about chemtrails with the Citizens' Advocate and asked them to give a record of all flights over Athens for that day. They rang her back and said they would.

[Jeff Reynolds]

all trolls can be revealed through their own words. All of you have been involved in this scam to make chemtrails an enigma. Foot Soldier is Deborah from Chemtrail Central. She has a hidden agenda just like the rest of these usernames.

People should check out Halvars first posts at Chemtrail Central. They don't add up.
There's a reason why he won't answer when he first heard of chemtrails, when he first saw them, and when he decided to write about them.

There is a website that says they watch Bill O'Reilly, so we don't have to. That's what myself and may41970 came up with. We exposed the fake chemtrail forums script so newbies and fence sitters don't have to wade through all their noise and disinfo.

Halva is part of this racket.

[halva]

I am, from today, going to start posting at http://halva.proboards46.com all information that I receive on nuclear weapons and energy, climate change, chemtrails/geoengineering, militarisation of climate issues, making no informational postings here but only responses to trolling and harassment.

Whether I respond to trolling and harassment of others apart from myself will depend on whether or not there seems to be mutual comprehension with whoever is concerned.

[Jeff Reynolds]

yadda, yadda, yadda

So what was up with all that stratosphere talk? All I did was take a look at your early posts and found strange patterns. We get it that you respect "Louis Aubuchont" and Will Thomas.

Were "you," "Lou," and Will established as strawmen for Jay Reynolds? And where the hell is Jay with his proof that Terry Stewart never spoke with military personnel about chemtrails or contrails? Did he even write somewhere that he did so? I spoke with Jeff Ferrell of KSLA News-12, Louisiana who said I could quote him.

Jeff Ferrell got a quick lesson about the script, didn't he?

Hey Halva, maybe give Carol Rosin a call. Maybe she has some ideas about what you can do next as regards to the "peace in space" movement.

You can't fake soul.

[halva]

Is that to be the end of this thread?

[Jeff Reynolds]

Why did Jay Reynolds run away?
Was it because he made a tactical error in questioning my proof that Terry Stewart never spoke with military personnel about chemtrails or contrails? I googled Jay Reynolds and Terry Stewart. I haven't been able to locate any such proof that Jay Reynolds debunked that story.

Jay posted that I was just like Will Thomas, writing things without proof. How come when I showed my proof, he ran away?

And another question for Jay Reynolds.

How did he miss the fact that Will Thomas has written different versions of the events leading to the "Deep Sky" story?

His debunking over the years seems to have been scripted with the intent to box us into thinking that chemtrails are an enigma, that there are crazy believers and closed-minded debunkers. Thus, that was where Foot Soldier was to enter the scene with her Jay Reynolds' lite copy and paste analysis. She is a debunker in chemmie clothes.

Chemtrails are not contrails.

[halva]

From: Kostas Foteinakis
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 7:36 AM



Dear friends of ENOURANOIS,

Thank you for your comments.

It is true that there was no co-ordination and the big absence - apart from what you note - was the political responsibilities or the omissions at the national and global level, and particularly we did not touch on the responsibilities of the market and boundless development in the name of the greatest profit to private companies.

My view is that confusion probably was caused in some viewpoints expressed.

Clearly the subject of climate change has many sides to it, which cannot all be dealt with even in a conference, much less in a function by a local society.

The young people who had some knowledge of the subject liked the function while the older people didn't understand much, if anything.

Thank you for your presence and your comments,

Kostas Foteinakis



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: halva

The first public function of the newly-formed OIKO.POLI.S Ecological Cultural Society of Haidari (Athens) ( www.xpolis.blogspot.com), which took place on 5th December 2007 in the council chambers of Haidari concerned itself with the subject of climate change, thus functioning as a warm-up for the big international mobilization of next Saturday, 8th December.

Present at the function were the mayor and members of the council. The two representatives of the Enouranois website who participated, distributing material on geoengineering and talking to the public, met with a warm welcome, including from the organizers.

If we may be allowed some comments: the main problem of the meeting was the lack of clarity as regards the effects of climate change. The main speaker, Professor Panagiotis Nastos of the University of Athens, outlined a scenario of global warming. The two speakers from the OIKOTOPIA magazine, Giannis Schizas and Giannis Sakiotis, spoke of a "climatic destabilization" involving changes to the Gulf Stream which could bring a new ice age to Europe. All of these scenarios are doubtless separate aspects of a complex overall situation, but the impression that was created of "everyone saying his own thing", could have been avoided through a little co-ordination between the speakers.

Also Giannis Sakiotis referred to the phenomenon of "global dimming", the 10% fall in levels of sunlight owing to atmospheric pollution, without explaining that the dimming is regarded as a POSITIVE PHENOMENON by many scientists because of its tendency to slow the rate of global warming. From here the discussion could have branched off into geoengineering, which was the "great absentee" from this first public discussion of the Ecological and Cultural Society of Haidari.

In any case the Enouranois website says to the organizers and members of OIKOPOLIS "kali archi" (a good beginning) and we expect in future to have other opportunities to investigate these questions which are so important to the future of all of us.

[halva]

bump

[halva]

http://thisissouthdevon.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=134844&command=displayContent&sourceNode=134828&contentPK=19125761&moduleName=InternalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch

MP TO PROBE 'POISON CHEMTRAILS' CLAIM

11:00 - 01 December 2007

Totnes mp Anthony Steen is launching his own investigation into an international conspiracy theory following fears that South Devon is being poisoned by a toxic cocktail of chemicals being rained down from the skies.

Retired schoolteacher Christopher Cooper has appealed for help from the MP after claiming he has spotted numerous aircraft leaving 'chemtrails' - plumes of an unknown mixture of chemicals - in deliberate grid patterns across the skies over Torbay, Newton Abbot and Totnes.He is so concerned that he has spent £200 on building his own 'chemtrail buster' out of six foot long copper pipes laid out in a special matrix he claims helps disperse the chemicals above his Littlehempston home.

Now Mr Steen has said he plans to question defence and aviation experts over the 'chemtrails' theory.

And if he still has worries after that, he plans to put questions to Secretary of State for Defence Des Browne.

Mr Steen said: "I am making my own inquiries about these allegations because I need to find out whether they have any substance.

"I am making inquiries with a number of experts before putting anything to the Secretary of State."

He said he had not come across the 'chemtrail' concerns before and added: "I take every constituent's allegations and concerns seriously until proven otherwise.

"I always think they are right and what they are saying must be investigated.

"I take this very seriously. I will be making the appropriate inquiries and once I have done so I will decide how best to pursue the matter."

The 'chemtrail' conspiracy theory surfaced in the mid to late 1990s and claims that some trails left behind high altitude jet aircraft are different in appearance and quality from those of normal contrails, may be composed of harmful chemicals, and are being deliberately produced, and covered up by the government.

The reason why is unclear although suggestions have included secret efforts to control the weather - in particular global warming - biological warfare, a sophisticated radar system, some sort of mind control or even occult purposes.

Mr Cooper, who used to teach at the Rudolf Steiner School at Dartington until his retirement, wrote to Mr Steen expressing his concerns about 'the 'chemtrails' which criss cross the skies over the South Hams on many days, especially early in the morning'.

He warned the MP: "The 'chemtrails' stay in the sky for several hours and are placed there on a planned grid."

He said there had been reports of such trails in other parts of the UK as well as Europe and the USA.

He has asked Mr Steen to question the Ministry of Defence and ask for a reason for the 'chemtrails', how much is such an operation costing taxpayers, what other government ministries are in the know and 'who authorised the campaign to drench the atmosphere with what appears to be toxic chemicals which may have a very adverse effect on the population's health'.

He said that websites claim the 'chemtrails' contain traces of barium salts, aluminium, sodium hydroxide, calcium, magnesium and 'even some radioactive thorium have been reported in the USA'.

[dewey189]

Also Giannis Sakiotis referred to the phenomenon of "global dimming", the 10% fall in levels of sunlight owing to atmospheric pollution, without explaining that the dimming is regarded as a POSITIVE PHENOMENON by many scientists because of its tendency to slow the rate of global warming.I've heard this argument before, and it's one of the reasons I believe spraying programs are going on in one form or another.

[halva]

Yes, global dimming, and the BBC documentary on it, is a good bridge in discussions with the climate change movement.

[halva]

Documentary by Andrew Johnson:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3258559205473754938

[halva]

Athens, Greece. Photo from the international climate change mobilization of 8th December.

http://www.enouranois.gr/images/8dece2007.jpg

[Marvin]

Yes, global dimming, and the BBC documentary on it,
is a good bridge in discussions with the climate change
movement.

The "Climate Change Movement" is not about science.

It is about the politics of shaking down energy
producing corporations for political donations.

It is an extortion racket.

The "global warming" that these fraudsters
are talking about has nothing to do with CO2.

As the population grows in any area (urban or rural) the
average temperature goes up because people like to
keep warm in the winter.

In terms of the global heat energy produced by
the sun on the earth it is like a fart in a hurricane.

:p

The troposphere just above where envirofraudsters
are taking these readings is not changing
in temperature, nor is the temperature changing in
regions of the world far removed from man's cities.

Temperature readings from these areas have
remained constant for the last 100 years.

[halva]

For me it is a matter of principle for my politics not to be dictated by American party political dogfights.

The climate change sceptic vs true believer scenario has been cunningly scripted but it is you suckers' misfortune, not mine.

[halva]

Introductory note:

David Keith, author of “Geoengineering Encyclopedia of Global Change” (2002) is one of the most visible figures in the contemporary geoengineering club. The following public lecture, delivered in New York in September 2007, and containing an appeal for “musicians scientists, philosophers, writers” to interest themselves in Keith’s particular subject: geoengineering, can be interpreted – and I believe most definitely SHOULD be interpreted – as an expression of Keith’s desire for a change of political masters, in effect an appeal to reverse the process set in motion at the outset of the Cold War when in the aftermath of the furore over the loyalties of J. Robert Oppenheimer, Edward Teller moved his political allegiance from Democrat to Republican.

The most cursory glance at Edward Teller’s short piece from 1998 “Sunscreen for Planet Earth” highlights the dilemmas that Teller - through his simultaneous advocacy of anthropogenic climate change “skepticism” and the geoengineering approach to “solution” of a problem of whose existence he proclaims himself skeptical - prepared for all subsequent geoengineers. Such deliberate generation of cognitive dissonance could perhaps be justified in terms of the “divide and rule” logic of war, (hot or cold). It has many precedents in Teller’s previous history as architect of the hydrogen bomb and of the Star Wars “anti-missile shield”. But in a post-Cold War world threatened with ecological ruin, (largely in consequence of the mentalities and activities of the very same laboratories and scientists), it has most certainly reached its “sell-by” date. David Keith’s lecture can, and my opinion should be interpreted as coded acknowledgement of that reality.

Most conspicuous at the beginning of Keith’s lecture is the disdain of the “skeptic” for the clichés and monotony of the popular climate change debate. This stance of Keith should not be mistaken for actual “skepticism”. Keith, like the Marty Hoffert he mentions in his talk, rejects the “market fundamentalism” of true, ideological, climate change “skeptics”.

Although there is overwhelming circumstantial evidence that geoengineering programmes of the type Keith advocates are not just proposals but have already been under implementation for years (how else, for example, can one interpret Keith’s observations on the problems of sulphate-based geoengineering. Is he really just talking about volcanoes?) the only thing that Keith really has in common with “skeptics” is his evasiveness on this particular subject. This is a reflection of the Teller inheritance, the past that David Keith seems to want to get away from.

It is by no means necessary to become an apologist for geoengineering to support Keith’s statement that “you don’t make good policy by hiding things in a drawer”.

All of the implications of Keith’s lecture, though he does not say so in so many words, is that the “skeptics” have no place in the climate change debate. How, after all, is his recommendation for maximum progress on reducing greenhouse gas emissions to be achieved in the face of the demagogic politics, and the popular influence, of the various Inhofes and Lomborgs?

Keith’s appeal for transparency, for getting the geoengineering debate “out of the drawer” could moreover provide one of the prerequisites for serious opposition to military applications of weather and climate modification: reintroduction of the distinction between civilian and military applications of science.

Neither Keith’s own lack of total frankness nor his evident support for nuclear power should discourage acceptance of what appears to be an appeal to be allowed to serve a new master. Are today’s climate change, anti-nuclear, anti-militarist and “altermondialiste”movements capable of becoming that new master? If we are not, we had better start trying to do something about that.
W.H.
http://www.enouranois.gr

[halva]

A Surprising Idea for “Solving� Climate Change

From the“TED� (Technology, Entertainment, Design) conference in New York City, September 2007.
http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/192

David Keith: You’ve all seen lots of articles on climate change and here’s yet another New York Times article just like every other darned one you’ve seen. It says all the same stuff as all the other ones you’ve seen. It even has the same kind of headline as all the other ones you’ve seen. What’s unusual about this one, maybe, is that it’s from 1953. And the reason I’m saying this is that you may have the idea this problem is relatively recent, that people have just sort of figured out about it and now with Kyoto and the Governator and people beginning to actually do something, we may be on the road to solution. The fact is uh-uh. We’ve known about this problem for fifty years, depending on how you count it, and we have talked about it endlessly over the last decade or so and we’ve accomplished close to zip.

This is the growth rate of CO2 in the atmosphere. You’ve seen this in various forms but maybe you haven’t seen this one. What this shows is that the rate of growth of our emissions is accelerating, and accelerating even faster than what we thought was the worst case just a few years back. So that red line there was something that a lot of skeptics said the environmentalists only put in the projections to make the projections look as bad as possible, that emissions would never grow as fast as that red line, but in fact they’re growing faster. Here’s some data from actually just ten days ago, which shows this year’s minimum of the Arctic sea ice, and it’s the lowest by far, and the rate at which the Arctic sea ice is going away is a lot quicker than models, so despite all sorts of experts like me flying around the planet and burning jet fuel and politicians signing treaties, in fact you could argue the net effect of all this has been negative because it has just consumed a lot of jet fuel. In terms of what we really need to do to put the brakes on this very high inertial thing, our big economy, we’ve really hardly started. Really we’re doing this, basically, really not very much. I don’t want to depress you too much. The problem is absolutely soluble, and even soluble in a way that’s reasonably cheap. Cheap meaning sort of the cost of the military, not the cost of medical care. Cheap meaning a few percent of GDP. No, this is really important to have this sense of scale. So the problem is soluble and the way we should go about solving it is, say …. dealing with electricity production, which costs us something like 43 or so percent - and rising - of CO2 emissions, and we could do that by perfectly sensible things like conservation and wind power, nuclear power and coalless CO2 capture, which are all things that are ready for giant-scale deployment, and work, and all we lack is the action to actually spend the money to put those into place. Instead we spend our time talking. But nevertheless, that is not what I am going to talk to you about tonight. What I'm going to talk to you about tonight is stuff that we might do if we did nothing, and it's this stuff in the middle here, which is what you do if you don't stop the emissions quickly enough, and you need to deal, somehow break the link between human actions that change climate and the climate change itself. And that’s particularly important because of course while we can adapt to climate change, and it’s important to be honest here, there will be some benefits to climate change. Oh yes, I think it’s bad. I spend my whole life working to stop it. But one of the reasons it’s politically hard is there are winners and losers, not all losers. But of course the natural world: polar bears - l spend time skiing across the sea ice for weeks at a time in the high Arctic - they will completely lose and there’s no adaption. (sic)

So this problem is absolutely soluble. This geoengineering idea in its simplest form is basically the following. You can put particles, say sulphuric acid particles, sulphates, into the upper atmosphere, the stratosphere, where they reflect away sunlight and cool the planet and I know for certain that that will work - not that there aren't side effects, but I know for certain it will work - and the reason is it’s been done. And it was done not by us, not by me, but by nature. Here’s Mount Pinatubo in the early 90s, that put a whole bunch of sulphur in the stratosphere with a sort of atomic-bomb like cloud and the result of that was pretty dramatic. After that, and some previous volcanoes, we had you see a quite dramatic cooling of the atmosphere. So this lower bar is the upper atmosphere, the stratosphere, and it heats up after these volcanoes but you’ll notice that in the upper bar, which is the lower atmosphere on the surface, it cools down because we’ve shielded the atmosphere a little bit. There's no big mystery about it. There's lots of mystery in the details and there are some bad side effects, like it partially destroys the ozone layer, and I’ll get to that in a minute, but it clearly cools down, and one other thing. It’s fast. Really important to say. So much of the other things that we ought to do, like slowing emissions, are intrinsically slow, because it takes time to build all the hardware we need to reduce emissions and not only that. When you cut emissions you don’t cut concentrations because concentrations, the amount of CO2 in the air, is the sum of emissions over time, so you can’t step on the brakes very quickly. But if you do this, it’s quick. And there are times you might like to do something quick Another thing you might wonder about is does it work? Can you shade some sunlight and effectively compensate for the added CO2 and produce a climate sort of back to what it was originally. And the answer seems to be yes. So here’s the graphs you’ve seen lots of times before. That's what the world looks like under one particular climate model's view, with twice the amount of CO2 in the air. The lower graph is with twice the mount of CO2 and 1.8 percent less sunlight, and you're back to the original climate. And this graph from Ken Caldeira, it's important to say, came because Ken at a meeting that - I believe Marty Hoffert was also at - in the mid-90s, Ken and I stood up in the back of the meeting and said geoengineering won't work and to the person who was promoting it said the atmosphere is much more complicated and a bunch of physical reasons why it wouldn’t do a very good compensation. Ken went and ran his models and found that it did.

This topic is also old. That report that landed on President Johnson’s desk when I was two years old in 1965, that report, in fact, which had all of modern climate science, the only thing they talked about doing was geoengineering. It didn’t even talk about cutting emissions, which is an incredible shift in our thinking about this problem. I'm not saying we shouldn't cut emissions. We should. But it made exactly this point. So in a sense there is not much new. The one new thing is this essay. So I should say, I guess that since the time of that original President Johnston report and the various reports of the US National Academy - 1977, 1982, 1990 - people always talked about this idea. Not as something foolproof but as something to think about. But when climate became politically a hot topic, if I make the pun in the last fifteen years, this became so un-PC we couldn't talk about it. It just sank below the surface. We weren't allowed to speak about it. But in the last year Paul Crutzen published this essay saying roughly what’s all been said before: that maybe given our very slow rate of progress in solving this problem and the uncertain impacts, we should think about things like this. He said roughly what's been said before. The big deal was he happened to have won the Nobel Prize for ozone chemistry, so people took him seriously when he said we should think about this, even though there will be some ozone impacts, and in fact he had some ideas to make them go away. There was all sorts of press coverage all over the world, going right down to ‘Dr, Strangelove saves the Earth’ from the Economist. And that got me thinking. I’ve worked on this topic on and off but not so much technically and I was actually lying in bed thinking one night and I thought about this child's toy, which is hence the title of my talk, and I wondered if you could use the same physics that makes that thing spin around in the child's radiometer to levitate particles into the upper atmosphere and make them stay there. One of the problems with sulphates is that they fall out quickly.

[halva]

The other problem is that they are right in the ozone layer and I prefer them above the ozone layer. And it turns out…. I woke up the next morning and started to calculate this and it was very hard to calculate from first principles - I was stumped - but then I found out that there were all sorts of papers already published that address this topic because it happens already in the natural atmosphere. So it seems there are already fine particles that are levitated up into what we call the mesosphere about 100 kilometres up that already have this effect. I'll tell you very quickly how the effect works. There are a lot of fun complexities I would love to spend the whole evening on, but I won’t. But let's say we have sunlight hitting some particle and it's unevenly heated so the side facing the sun is warmer, the side away cooler. Gas molecules that bounce off the warm side bounce away with some extra velocity because it’s warm, and so you see a net force away from the sun. That’s called a photoforetic force. There are a bunch of other versions of it that I and some collaborators have thought about how to exploit, and of course we may be wrong - this hasn't all been been peer reviewed, we're in the middle of thinking about it - but so far it seems good., But it looks like we could achieve long atmospheric lifetimes, much longer than before, because they’re levitated. We could move things out of the stratosphere into the mesosphere, in principle solving the ozone problem - I'm sure there will be other problems that arise - and finally we could make the particles migrate over the poles, so we could arrange the climate engineering so it really focused on the poles, which would have minimal bad impacts in the middle of the planet where we live and do the maximum job on what we might need to do, which is cooling the poles in case of planetary emergency if you like. This is a new idea that has crept up that may be essentially a cleverer idea than putting sulphates in. Whether this idea is right or some other idea is right, I think that it is almost certain that we will eventually think of cleverer things to do than just putting sulphur in, that if engineers and scientists really it turn their mind to this, it's amazing how we can affect the planet The one thing about this is that it gives us extraordinary leverage. This improved science of engineering will, whether we like it or not, give us more and more leverage to affect the planet, to control the planet to give us weather and climate control. Not because we plan it, not because we want it. Just because science delivers it to us bit by bit with better knowledge of the way the system works and better engineering tools to effect it.

Now suppose that space aliens arrived on - maybe they're going to land at the UN headquarters down the road here - maybe they’ll pick a smarter spot - but suppose they arrive and they give you a box and the box has two knobs: one knob is the knob for controlling global temperature, maybe another knob is the knob for controlling CO2 concentrations. You might imagine that we would fight wars over that box because we have no way to agree about where to set the knobs. We have no global governance and different people will have different places they want it set. Now I don't think that's going to happen. It’s not very likely. But we’re building that box, the scientists and engineers of the world are building it piece by piece in their labs, even when they’re doing it for other reasons. Even when they 're thinking they're just working on protecting the environment - they have no interest in crazy ideas like engineering the whole planet. They develop science that makes it easier and easier to do. And so I guess my view on this is not that I want to do it - I do not - but that we should move this out of the shadows and talk about it seriously, because sooner or later we’ll be confronted with decisions about this and it's better if we think hard about it even if we want to think hard about reasons why we should never do it.

I'll give you two different ways to think about this problem that are the beginning of my thinking about how to think about it. But what we need is not just a few oddballs like me thinking about this. We need a broader debate, a debate that involves…. musicians scientists, philosophers, writers, who get engaged with this question about climate engineering and think seriously about what its implications are. So here’s one way to think about it, which is that we do just do this instead of cutting emissions because it's cheaper. I guess the thing I haven't said about this is that it is absurdly cheap. It's conceivable that say using the sulphates method or this method I've come with, you could create an ice age at a cost of .001 percent of GDP. It's very cheap. We have a lot of leverage. It's not a good idea. But it's just important. I'll tell you how big the lever is. The lever is that big. That calculation is very much in dispute. You might argue about the sanity of it. But the leverage is real. So because of this we could deal with the problem simply by stopping reducing emissions and just as concentrations go up we could increase the amount of geoengineering. I don’t think anybody takes that seriously because under this scenario we walk further and further away from the current climate. We have all sorts of other problems like ocean acidification that come from CO2 in the atmosphere anyway. Nobody but one or two very odd folks really suggest this. But here's a case that's harder to reject. Let’s say that we don't do geoengineering. We do what we ought to do, which is get serious about cutting emissions. But we don’t really know how quickly we have to cut them. There's a lot of uncertainty about exactly how much climate change is too much. So let's say that we work hard and we actually don't just tap the brakes but we step hard on the brakes and really reduce emissions and eventually reduce concentrations and maybe some day, like 2075, October 23, we finally reach that glorious day where concentrations have peaked and are rolling down the other side. We have global celebrations and we've actually started to, you know, we’ve seen the worst of it. But maybe on that day we also find that the Greenland ice sheet is really melting unacceptably fast, fast enough to put metres of sea level on the oceans in the next hundred years and remove some of the biggest cities from the map. An absolutely possible scenario. We might decide at that point that even though geoengineering was uncertain and morally unhappy, that it’s a lot better than not geoengineering. And that's a very different way to look at the problem. It's using this as risk control, not instead of action. It's saying that you do some geoenginering for a little while to take the worst of the heat off, not use it as a substitute for action But there is a problem with that view and the problem is the following: Knowledge that geoengineering is possible makes the climate impacts look less fearsome. And that makes a weaker commitment to cutting emissions today. This is what economists call a moral hazard. And that's one of the fundamental reasons that this problem is so hard to talk about and in general I think it is the underlying reason that it has been politically unacceptable to talk about this. But you don’t make good policy by hiding things in a drawer.

I'll leave you with three questions and then one final quote. Should we do serious research on this topic? Should we have a national research programme that looks at this? Not just at how you would do it better but also what all the risks and downsides of it are? Right now you have a few enthusiasts talking about it. Some on a positive side. Some on a negative side. But that's a dangerous state to be in. Because there's very little depth of knowledge on this topic. A very small amount of money would get us some. Many of us, maybe now me, think we should do that, but I have a lot of reservations. My reservations are principally about the moral hazard problem And I don't really know how we can best avoid the moral hazard. I think there is a serious problem. As you talk about this, people begin to think that they do not need to work so hard to cut emissions. Another thing is maybe we need a treaty, a treaty that decides who gets to do this. Right now we may think of a big rich country like the US doing this. But it might well be that in fact if China wakes up in 2030 and realizes that the climate impacts are just unacceptable, they would not be very interested in our moral conversations about how to do this. They may just decide but they would really rather have a geoengineering world than a non-geoengineering world. And we'll have no international mechanism to figure out who makes the decisions.

So here is one last thought, which was said much much better 25 years ago in the US National Academy Report than I can say today. I think it really summarizes where we are here. That the CO2 problem, the climate problem, that we've heard about, is driving lots of things - innovations and innovative technologies - that will reduce emissions. But also, I think inevitably, it will drive us towards thinking about climate and weather control, whether we like it or not, and it’s time to begin thinking about it, even if the reason we're thinking about it is to construct arguments for why we shouldn’t do it. Thank you very much.

[halva]

How far are David Keith's motives the same as those of the late Deep Shield?? With the difference that Keith is a team player within the logic of his own clique, rather than an anguished and potentially suicidal misfit?.

I would not mind David Stewart answering this question, if he still comes to this part of the forum.

Footsoldier would have ideas on the subject also, and could respond, either here or at Megasprayer, if she wished to condescend to.

[halva]

When I spoke to the Greek climate scientist Dimitris Lalas about Crutzen and his proposals for spraying sulphur in the stratosphere, Lalas said that the best approach to crazy ideas like these is to ignore them. Crutzen came to Athens recently for a scientiitic conference (not open to the public) but I have heard no report of Lalas either demonstratively ignoring him or expressing more dynamic disapproval of him or his proposals..

[halva]

Russia knows how to prevent global warming - academic
20:47 | 30/ 05/ 2007



MOSCOW, May 30 (RIA Novosti) - Russian scientists believe that global warming can be slowed down by releasing aerosols into the lower stratosphere, a top scientist said Wednesday.

The director of the Global Climate and Ecology Institute, Yury Izrael, told a news conference that if a sulfur-based aerosol were sprayed into the atmosphere at a height of 10-14 kilometers (six to 10 miles), the sulfur particles would reflect the sun's rays.

He said one million tons of aerosol would enable a reduction of solar irradiance at the Earth's surface of 0.5-1%, and a recution in lower tropospheric temperature of 1-1.5 degrees Celsius.

Izrael said the method demands more detailed development, and that a relevant decision on an international level should be made for it to come into force.

However, the academic said the method is not an alternative to measures for fighting climate change envisioned by the Kyoto Protocol.

"I don't want this to contradict the Kyoto Protocol, but to run in parallel with existing methods... I am advocating that work be conducted simultaneously on several techniques," Izrael said.

He also said the Russian scientists' method would make the fight against climate change faster and cheaper.

The scientist said the global temperature in the coming century could rise by 1.4-4 degrees Celsius, causing droughts, floods and cyclones. Russia could face the extinction of 20-30% of its animal and plant life with a 2 degree rise, he said.

However, Izrael denied the current high temperatures in Moscow are connected with climate change.

"Any fact, even the most acute changes should not be directly linked to climate change, but should be considered as part of temperature fluctuations," he said.

[jayreynolds]

When I spoke to the Greek climate scientist Dimitris Lalas about Crutzen and his proposals for spraying sulphur in the stratosphere, Lalas said that the best approach to crazy ideas like these is to ignore them. Crutzen came to Athens recently for a scientiitic conference (not open to the public) but I have heard no report of Lalas either demonstratively ignoring him or expressing more dynamic disapproval of him or his proposals..

"I have heard no report of Lalas demonstratively ignoring him"
Huh?
Try and make some sense for once in your life.

Still crazy after all these years, Wayne.................

What a loser, old bean.

[halva]

For reasons best known to himself the poster Jay Reynolds has chosen to use the knowledge he has acquired on the subject of geoengineering/weather modfication/militarisation of climate in such a way as to acquire the status of contemptible nuisance and irrelevance with all parties and retain the friendship only of those who have no interest in these subjects and from whom he can gain no kudos or any other benefit from his expertise.

He can no longer even pretend to have anything of relevance or interest,, or even anything threateningly provocative, to say,

Having failed in his attempt at systematic harassment in this threads and failed to keep debate tied into a provocation/reaction pattern that gives him maximum freedom for self-exhibition he now seeks to apply this failed model to other subjects, such as genetic engineering.

What motive could ANYBODY have to respond?

[jayreynolds]

How far are David Keith's motives the same as those of the late Deep Shield?? With the difference that Keith is a team player within the logic of his own clique, rather than an anguished and potentially suicidal misfit?.

I would not mind David Stewart answering this question, if he still comes to this part of the forum.

Footsoldier would have ideas on the subject also, and could respond, either here or at Megasprayer, if she wished to condescend to.
'Deep Shield' was a hoax fabricated by David Stewart in which he claimed that aerosol based geoengineering was taking place.

The evidence shows that the opposite is true, earth's atmospheric aerosol levels are decreasing, not increasing as they would if geoengineering were taking place.

The whole can of worms was eaten by silly folks like Wayne Hall, however, who still blithely soldier on as if there windmill hadn't been toppled.

Why go on, Wayne, when you and anbody with brains knows the facts of the matter?

Somethings wrong in your head, man.

[Jeff Reynolds]

'Deep Shield' was a hoax fabricated by David Stewart in which he claimed that aerosol based geoengineering was taking place.

The evidence shows that the opposite is true, earth's atmospheric aerosol levels are decreasing, not increasing as they would if geoengineering were taking place.

The whole can of worms was eaten by silly folks like Wayne Hall, however, who still blithely soldier on as if there windmill hadn't been toppled.

Why go on, Wayne, when you and anbody with brains knows the facts of the matter?

Somethings wrong in your head, man.

Hey Mr. NumbNut, no one cares about the script any longer. The script got exposed. People can see that you are both controlled opposition. And it took less than a year to put it all together. And Deborah, Chem11, BigBunny, Ed Snell, Arcadia Ego, Jeff Wells, Tinoire, Mike Rivero, and on and on every fake focker has been exposed. That's the elephant in this room. People are looking outside of the controlled script for the truth. All of you are irrelevant!


http://allaircraftarenotinvolved.freeforums.org

[halva]

Listen to what Jeff Reynolds says, Jay Reynolds. You are not fooling anybody any longer.

[jayreynolds]

Hey Mr. NumbNut, no one cares about the script any longer. The script got exposed. People can see that you are both controlled opposition. And it took less than a year to put it all together. And Deborah, Chem11, BigBunny, Ed Snell, Arcadia Ego, Jeff Wells, Tinoire, Mike Rivero, and on and on every fake focker has been exposed. That's the elephant in this room. People are looking outside of the controlled script for the truth. All of you are irrelevant!
http://allaircraftarenotinvolved.freeforums.org

No, people are looking at the man in the rubber room(you) bouncing off the wall, inventing enemies too numerous to mention, living in a world where everyone is a "fake", but denying that his only true enemy is himself, and his arrogant self-pride which blinds him to how he has been fooled into belief in poppycock.

A sad story, yes, but delicious irony and sublime comedy at the same time.

People do indeed look outside the controlled script you have created in your own mind, and people have decided that, guess what, 'chemtrails' are just a hoax.

[halva]

In Greece an argument over chemtrails has broken out in the ecological movement. There was no such argument before.

[halva]

Anthropogenic climate change debunkers could not affect its outcome.

[halva]

This was sent by Andrew Johnson:

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=HOyjtiaFibw

[halva]

How far are David Keith's motives the same as those of the late Deep Shield?? With the difference that Keith is a team player within the logic of his own clique, rather than an anguished and potentially suicidal misfit?.

I would not mind David Stewart answering this question, if he still comes to this part of the forum.

Footsoldier would have ideas on the subject also, and could respond, either here or at Megasprayer, if she wished to condescend to.

As I have shouted many times, I try to keep away from American party politics in everything I post here, but Obama's win over Hilary Clinton in the Democratic caucuses in Iowa make it perhaps relevant to say a few things about why for me Hillary Clinton is more of an unknown quantity than every other American politician I know about.

I have always thought that Obama was brought in first and foremost as a spoiler for Clinton, and that if he gets to be candidate he will be eaten for breakfast by the Republicans. If amazingly he gets to be President he will also be eaten for breakfast.

With Hilary Clinton one (or at least I) could not be sure that her fate would be the same. Why do I have questions in my mind about her?

One reason is because of the deposition of the person who came to be known as Deep Shield. This person made his debut on line, as far as I know, at the Chemtrails Hall of Shame site:

http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/anonymous_conversations.html

One statement that is attributed to him is this:

"There is a standing need to deal with the problem fast. The greatest threat to the project was that the arguments and the sideline debates and the weighing of the pros and cons would drag out until it was far to late for even this extreme measure.

Remember that all of this was being done During the Clinton Administration. Look back at that period of time and you will find that there were a few stage shows put on world wide to entertain and pull attention away from the ecological problems we faced.

Trust me, Clinton really didn't have sex with that woman. But he did agree to have his name dragged through the mud to pull the attention to him.

Several other events took place, which were staged as well, all of which were designed to keep the masses busy.

There are a few opponents to the shield project. They made their presence felt on 9-11-01. No, it wasn't the Taliban or Bin Laden who caused these events, it was those who are opposed and are fighting the only working solution to an impossible problem."

These ideas are among the more "loony" elements in the deposition, and were edited out in the later, cleaned-up version of the text that appeared at Holmestead:
http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/shieldproject.html

Deep Shield appears to have been a misfit., in no way a team player and, as it later proved, more than potentially suicidal.

So what he is reported to have said needs to be treated with even greater circumspection than would otherwise be the case.

But the result, for me, has been, that question marks remain as to the role that could be played (or could have been played?) by Hilary Clinton.

If Monicagate really was "staged", was it staged for the reasons Deep Shield specifies? Or was it perhaps staged for other reasons having more to do with electoral politics and Hilary's evident desire to be the focus of a second Clinton presidency.

If it is true that she is much more of an "insider" than some of the other people now coming forward as candidates, it also seems that in the game of mass politics as it is played in the USA, this is not necessarily going to be an advantage to her.

[halva]

Posted by: "L WOOLFORD"
Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:06 pm (PST)
While on a trip to Alaska I had a close encounter with a Chemtrail laying plane which had a few interesting black lines.......
http://www.flickr.com/gp/28223501@N00/746214

http://www.flickr.com/photos/trailsinaustin/sets/72157601637448953

[dewey189]

if he gets to be candidate he will be eaten for breakfast by the Republicans. If amazingly he gets to be President he will also be eaten for breakfast. With Hilary Clinton one (or at least I) could not be sure that her fate would be the same. You've got to be kidding me. The first Clinton President was under siege non-stop by Republicans. A second Clinton Presidency will be even worse.

[jayreynolds]

One reason is because of the deposition of the person who came to be known as Deep Shield. [b\This person made his debut on line, as far as I know, at the Chemtrails Hall of Shame site:[/b]
http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/anonymous_conversations.html
No, Wayne, that webpage debuted in August 2003:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030826112617/http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/anonymous_conversations.html

David G. Stewart began the "Deep Shield" hoax on Wednesday, Nov 27, 2002, at 8:24 pm, "David" posted the first of a series of messages said to be from the 'insider' at CTTUSA:

The hoax was exposed as such in May of 2003:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030627145117/www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000078.html

[jayreynolds]

As I have shouted many times, I try to keep away from American party politics in everything I post here, but Obama's win over Hilary Clinton in the Democratic caucuses in Iowa make it perhaps relevant to say a few things about why for me Hillary Clinton is more of an unknown quantity than every other American politician I know about.

I have always thought that Obama was brought in first and foremost as a spoiler for Clinton, and that if he gets to be candidate he will be eaten for breakfast by the Republicans. If amazingly he gets to be President he will also be eaten for breakfast.

Wayne, the fact of the matter is that Hilary scares the hell out of far too many Americans, male and female.
She represents entrenched polital machines first and foremost, and secondly a ruthless blindly ambitious woman.

The ascendancy of Obama and my buddy Huckabee represent the appeal that outsider populist style people have right now with American voters.

Ironically, the ongoing smear campaigns against (mostly) the Republicans by Democrats and their media allies have had unintended consequences of poisoning the entire well against all candidates who are long-time politicians. The electorate are sick and tired of the same-old bosses and yearn for someone to clean up the perceived mess they have been made to believe exists.

Wayne, your naivetey is showing. You have little personal experience to guide you when it comes to seeing things the way they really are over here, and from what I've seen get the distorted perspectives you do have from unreliable sources, as usual.

[jayreynolds]

Posted by: "L WOOLFORD"
Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:06 pm (PST)
While on a trip to Alaska I had a close encounter with a Chemtrail laying plane which had a few interesting black lines.......
http://www.flickr.com/gp/28223501@N00/746214

http://www.flickr.com/photos/trailsinaustin/sets/72157601637448953

First of all, that site displays a terrorist threat whose writer has been reported to the FBI.

Secondly, the photo shows ordinary shadows below the contrail. The claim that the shadow represents "spraying'
is ludicrous because it appears temporally coexistant with the contrail, but at a much lower altitude while the aircraft is traveling at hundreds of miles/hour. No "spray" could fall so fast.

[halva]

Will the constituency that has been building hopes on a second Clinton presidency change their attitude to the 911 Truth Movement if they see these hopes evaporating?

[dewey189]

Ironically, the ongoing smear campaigns against (mostly) the Republicans by Democrats and their media allies have had unintended consequences of poisoning the entire well against all candidates who are long-time politicians. The electorate are sick and tired of the same-old bosses and yearn for someone to clean up the perceived mess they have been made to believe exists. You must've been sleeping through the 90s if you think on-going smear campaigns are mostly the fault of Democrats. And long-time politicians ARE responsible for the mess we're in. It's a new century and it's time for a new set of rules. Hang on...it's going to be a rough ride for some of you.

[halva]

Could this turning towards "new blood" in both parties represent a window of opportunity for the 911 Truth Movement? After all, it comprises citizens from both sides of the party-political spectrum. And if you add to this mix a leavening of pissed-off worldly Democrats who don't like being elbowed aside by greenhorns..... These are just thoughts of an outsider. I don't know what the chances are really.

[halva]

Wayne, the fact of the matter is that Hilary scares the hell out of far too many Americans, male and female.


But you must admit, Raynolds, that if the scenario I outline is the one that is destined to unfold, it will not matter that this Mrs. Clinton "scares the hell" out of Americans. Quite the contrary. It will be to her advantage.

[halva]

From Chemtrails Hall of Shame:

http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/hos.html

Greetings.
It has been eight long years since phantom spray planes first appeared in the skies above our heads. This was in summer of 1998. Since then, there has been a ongoing high level campaign of discreditidation and ridicule directed at anyone who points out the strange anomalies occurring above.

Today, chemtrails are still being sprayed into the atmosphere world wide. The media and scientific poobahs continue to ignore the facts and eagerly assist in covering up the evidence. As a result we continue to suffer from the deleterious effects of global atmospheric modification.

I do find it interesting, however, that the Lightwatcher's H.O.S. site continues to generate more and more hits (up to 14,000 per day) - greater than any of LW.com's other sibling sites. This is an indicator that the topic is far from dead and buried.

http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/greetings_continued.html

(continued from main page)It occurs to me that more and more individuals are waking up from the hypnotic trance resulting from the traumatic events of the past few years. They are looking up at the butt-ugly artificial clouds above and questioning: "What is wrong with this picture?" Then they are Googling the topic online and finding a wealth of information in the alternative media, such as LW's Chemtrails Hall of Shame, carnicom.com, rense.com, and many others.

When the same individuals next turn to mainstream media and search GoogleNews for current news on Chemtrails - they get nothing, not one single shred of information. How interesting - mountains of information in the alternative media and zero data in mainstream media. Hmmmmm.... Could it be that mainstream media is making Herculean efforts to suppress this information? One would think that mainstream media would at least report on the "bizarre fringe conspiracy theories." But there is nothing, nada, and zip.

Time will tell. And when the truth finally does come out, and the public outrage over this environmental holocaust emerges, we will remember those who withheld the truth. Oh yes -- we will remember every official debunker, every climatologist and every Air Force spokesman who intentionally lied to a vulnerable public.

Listen up Powers That Be: When the jig is up and the present un-elected administration is consigned to the trash can of history, those who have supported them and their insane geoengineering policies will be exposed. Your crimes against the Earth will be in public view and you will be held accountable. Count on it! - Lightman

Is he right??

Do you know???

I don't.

[halva]

Does Jay Reynolds know??

He does not.

All of us tailor our actions to accord with our beliefs. I assume.

[jayreynolds]

Is he right?
Does Jay Reynolds know??
He does not.
All of us tailor our actions to accord with our beliefs. I assume.

Wayne, you guy says there is a "wealth of chemtrail information" on Carnicom's site.

Then he complains that mainstream media doesn't even cover "chemtrails" as a "bizarre conspiracy theory".

Oh, yeah, I know all right..........

How wrong can one man be?

I the case of nutman "lightwatcher", totally, it seems.........