It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature

[halva]

Why don't you take the advice of Aubuchont and J-Vitum and go back to doing something of some purpose with yourself?

All that you do continuing with your present stance is gain more enemies.

You cannot prevent people in the long run from organizing against these problems.

And you should not want to do so.

[halva]

Whose Europe? Our Europe!

January 10, 2007 10:06 | by Susan George

Like the famous Dickens opener in A Tale of Two Cities - 'It was the best of times, it was the worst of times' - Europe has always excelled at both the best and the worst. In the 20th century alone, Europeans committed some of the most horrendous crimes ever conceived by a perverse humanity - fascism, concentration camps, the Shoah on one side; communism, sham trials, the Gulag on the other. Their quarrels also caused two hugely destructive World Wars, wreaking carnage on a hitherto unimaginable scale.

Although Europeans did not invent slavery, they long benefited from it; they caused untold deaths and suffering under colonialism and imperialism. Anyone who cares to delve further back into history will find pitiless religious wars, the Inquisition, the divine right of kings and l'Etat c'est moi - one could go on and on. The continent will be a long time expiating its sins and the duties of remembrance will weigh for generations to come.

Yet Europe has also reached perhaps the best humans can attain. Tourists flock to its shores from all over the world to gaze reverently upon the remaining treasures of the age of faith and the Renaissance. They want a taste of the artistic exuberance of Italy, the grandeur of chateau life, the music, in situ, of Bach, Schubert and Mozart; the cuisine everywhere. They too want to feel, as the Germans say, 'as happy as God in France' - to describe the ultimate degree of felicity.

This is the continent that invented the opera, chamber music and the symphony orchestra, the classical ballet, easel painting, the museum, and although the printing press could also be credited to the Chinese, mass publishing. Europe displayed not just cultural inventiveness which, after all, began as an outgrowth of the Church or a pleasure for the aristocracy, but also excellence in political, scientific and technical innovation. For the first time since the Greeks, the Age of Reason and the Enlightenment brought with them a genuine spirit of free inquiry. The scientific method was born in Europe and set humankind on the road to discovering all manner of marvels - and all manner of dangers as well.

Revolutionary Europe

Even though the US got there first, political revolution is also the child of Europe. The French overthrew their absolute monarchs and their hereditary masters and mistresses, even going so far as to behead them - a move whose wisdom is still hotly debated. Many other revolutions and struggles for national unification followed. The ideals of democracy slowly gained ground; the amazingly contemporary Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen of 1789 should be framed in gold on every law-maker's desk. Europe invented parliaments, trial by jury, the right to a lawyer and guarantees for the defence - it even invented national Constitutions. Painfully, much later, it separated Church and State.

For over 200 years, Europeans have marched in the avant-garde of human emancipation. If workers are less exploited and women more free; if people can change jobs and enjoy paid holidays, if all children, rich and poor, are in school and virtually everyone knows how to read and write, that is Europe's doing. So is universal healthcare, both preventive and curative, the eradication of hunger and the lowest rates ever of maternal deaths in childbirth and infant mortality.

None of these advances happened by chance. They came about because people could either elect officials prepared to fight for them or, when necessary, fight for them themselves, sometimes in the streets, often giving their lives. Moreover, the continent known for its age-old propensity to war has been, with the exception of former Yugoslavia, at peace for 60 years.

I beg the reader's indulgence here because I want to bring personal testimony to this court of opinion. As someone born in the United States, allow me to draw attention to the unravelling of that country's social system: the 40 million Americans without health insurance, the collapsing schools in poor neighbourhoods, the plight of millions of poor people destined to remain forever at the bottom of society. When Hurricane Katrina struck, people in Europe couldn't believe the pictures they were seeing on television of an America suddenly part of the Third World.

I have had the good fortune to live in France, where, at ten-year intervals, I completed two higher degrees, including a PhD -about six years of post-graduate study in all. This cost our family about $100 a year. With three children to educate, seizing such an opportunity would have been unthinkable had I lived in the United States. Although some European universities now do charge for tuition, the sums required bear no comparison to the astronomic expenditure demanded for a college education at, say, Harvard or Smith, where I went, now of the order of $40,000 a year.

Similarly, when my husband became gravely ill, he received admirable care in the French public health and hospital system which went to enormous lengths to save, then to prolong his life over a year and a half and, finally, allowed him to spend his last days at home surrounded by his family but with a full home-hospital system in place. All this cost our family zero.

I provide these examples in order to argue that Europe has a social system worth safeguarding and fighting for. It is under grave threat from neoliberal ideology and politicians in our individual European countries and from the European Commission in Brussels, the most neoliberal in history, who are doing their best to dismantle this system in favour of an American-style, class-based, privatized social model which betrays all the ideals Europeans have upheld over centuries. Public services, which were not 'too expensive' when Europe had a GDP half the size it is now, have suddenly become so - doubtless because they provide huge benefits to citizens but no profits to private investors.

[halva]

Welfare not warfare

Sceptics who claim there is no such thing as the 'European Social Model' should be directed to a huge 450-page report from the International Labour Organization called Economic Security for a Better World. This tome, based on vast databases, 48,000 interviews and the labours of platoons of statisticians, sets out to measure various components of economic security in some 100 countries containing over 85 per cent of the world's population. The premise of the report is that the quality of security in your daily economic activity will have an overwhelming influence on the quality of your life. The International Labour Organization further believes, with considerable justification, it has come up with an 'objective measure of individual happiness and wellbeing'. Seven different categories of economic security - income, job, job markets, workplace, skills and training, control over work content, individual and collective 'voice' - are measured against universal criteria, then combined in a weighted average. This average shows that, objectively measured, Europe's systems take top marks; that Europeans can be said to enjoy greater personal wellbeing than other people.

This is in no way to say that the European model is perfect: neoliberalism has made many breaches in the walls of the welfare state; floorboards are missing here and there, people can and do slip through the cracks. Nor are public services always blameless, flawlessly efficient and free of corruption. But as one trade unionist, Mike Waghorne of Public Services International, points out: 'If your sink leaks or your paint is peeling, you don't burn down or sell the house - you fix the sink and repaint.' The propaganda we have lived with in Europe and elsewhere for the past two decades has told us, instead, to sell or destroy the house. Too many governments have been happy to take the one-off, windfall privatization money and run.

Preserving the European system should not, however, be seen as of interest only to Europeans. At the most basic, even tautological level, the existence of this model, here and now, proves that it is possible. It holds up to the world the fact that a decent life for everyone can be imagined and largely put into practice; that politics must remain dominant over the marketplace, that the system of taxation and redistribution can result in universal social protection, that people are not only less stressed and depressed when they benefit from economic security but also more productive and creative; that this system generates positive, measurable economic benefits as well as social ones.

This is an extremely inconvenient political fact for those, including a large part of the European managerial class and the European Commission, who would much rather prove that huge inequalities, mass privatizations, worker 'flexibility' and a State that governs on behalf of large corporations and financial markets are A Good Thing.

Geopolitically, the existence of the European model furthermore provides the 'threat of a good example'. We know we can expect little from the US in the foreseeable future. The Warfare State will not morph into the Welfare State and the environment can go straight to the Hot Place, as it shows every sign of doing, before Texans give up their SUVs. China, another contender for the Top World Model prize, seems bent on applying the worst aspects of both the capitalist and the communist systems. Many quite fascinating and positive developments are taking place in Latin America, but that continent lacks the unity, the high GDP, the population and the educational and technological levels of Europe. So if anyone is interested in proposing a universal, perfectible social and ecological model of benefit to all citizens, Europe would seem the only candidate for the post - at least right now.

A democratic Europe

Should we expect this to happen through natural evolution? Not at all. It won't unless European citizens pull up their collective socks and make it happen. Europe as now conceived needs a complete economic and political overhaul. The EU-25 have a ridiculous common budget; a Central Bank independent of any political oversight and prepared to quash expansion and more employment opportunities at the merest tremor; a Parliament that can't initiate legislation or levy taxes and therefore no Europewide taxes; an incapacity to borrow and launch treasury bonds on international markets; no solidarity funds to bring the 10 newcomer countries up to speed; huge obstacles to closer co-operation between states that want to advance faster...

But all is not lost. The French and Dutch votes against the proposed Constitution - perhaps the most complete neoliberal compendium ever drafted - were not anti-European per se but against the betrayal of the social model it would have instituted. The Commission is still busily trying, illegally as it happens, to resuscitate this defunct Constitution. As the Vice-President of this body, Gunter Verheugen remarked after the French and Dutch votes: 'We must not give in to blackmail'. So much for popular sovereignty and universal suffrage. Many politicians would indeed, like Verheugen, be delighted to consign democracy to the dustbin as a 200-year aberration in human affairs and let the technocrats and the élites get on with it.

But Europeans have been there before. It is unlikely this time that they will cry 'Off with their heads' or parade around their capitals with pikestaffs, but as soon as they understand the stakes, they will not give up on Europe because they will not betray their own history. Or so we must all hope - whether Europeans or not.

The top 20 countries on the Economic Security Index [which goes from 1, perfect to zero, abysmal] are: Sweden at 0,977, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, Luxemburg, Germany, Canada, Ireland, Austria, Spain, Portugal, Britain, Switzerland, Australia, Japan, Israel and Italy. The United States is number 25, with an index of 0.612.

Susan George is president of ATTAC France and a fellow of the Trans-National Institute. This article first appeared in the New Internationalist.

[jayreynolds]

Wayne, I heard about what your leftist friends did in Athens. I hope you had no involvement in that incident.

[halva]

I did it Raynolds. With my own home-made rocket. What do you think I'm doing with myself at the rare moments I'm not posting here?

[EdSnell]

What do you think I'm doing with myself at the rare moments I'm not posting here?Something disgusting, dishonest, unhealthy and immoral, I'm sure.:(

[halva]

The truth is that if I continue responding I will have no right to call Footsoldier a Jehovah's Witness for feeding Reynolds' narcissism.

[jayreynolds]

The truth is that if I continue responding I will have no right to call Footsoldier a Jehovah's Witness for feeding Reynolds' narcissism.

You bring up an interesting point, Wayne. You've said in the past that you were raised as a member of the watchtower cult.

Is it fair to say you have replaced that membership with yet another cult of belief?

There appear to me to be many similarities:

-nonsensical and contradictory belief system
-air of superiority and gnosticism
-authoritarian control of membership
-shunning activities for heresies real or imagined
-paranoid accusations of persecution
-parochial cloistering among believers, exclusivity

I actuality all of the above attributes practically define most cults.

How is the "chemtrails" cult any different?

[halva]

http://www.debatebothsides.com/showpost.php?p=724511&postcount=6

Here is a posting from that picturesque "Halvar and Lord Spray Show has to Go" thread started by Socrates which culminated in his amazing achievement of mobilizing the moderators of this forum.

I'm a liberal. BIG TIME liberal. I fucking HATE Bush, and voted for Democrats since you were a seed, boy.

And your comments about the Science forum don't belong on this one.

No one gives a shit.

The Science forum is loonyville.

Chemtrails, Contrails, whatever; nobody fucking cares.

Maybe try some strong, strong chemicals.

That's my best advice.

The implication is clear. There can be no more effective way of discouraging interest in the state of the skies than to have a "chemtrails vs contrails" debate with a debunker about it. Doubtless Raynolds will pride himself on his achievement.

But it his he who is trapped, not us. We are free to choose other approaches.

At our Greek-language discussion forum lately (where we cannot moderate them out) professional-seeming debunkers have similarly moved in to start "contrails vs chemtrails" debates. Due to the skills I have acquired from my apprenticeship with Mr. Raynolds I find that it is very easy to silence them (i) just by demanding that they express an attitude on the particulate spraying geoengineering proposals that are so well documented and (ii) by very definitely asserting that there is nothing at all crazy about such proposals and that they are very reasonable and necessary.

[jayreynolds]

I find that it is very easy to silence them
(i) just by demanding that they express an attitude on the particulate spraying geoengineering proposals that are so well documented and

(ii) by very definitely asserting that there is nothing at all crazy about such proposals and that they are very reasonable and necessary.

It must be true then that Greeks are of the easily persuadable type, Wayne.

So, it's the old 'Marketing of Air Pollution" ploy, eh?
Where you tell all your friends that "chemtrails" are necessary and good for you!"
http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=Fight&action=display&thread=1158294902

Maybe American's are more accustomed to looking skeptically at false advertising.

Have fun over there in olive land, Wayne.

[halva]

Radio station KPFK http://www.kpfk.org will be doing an hour long program on chemtrails Wednesday 7th February at 2pm. They plan to have guests Rosalind Peterson and Clifford Carnicom, and also open up the phones for call-ins during the later part of the
show.

[halva]

Reynolds has found himself a translator in Greece, but all the dunce can do is spam. He is absolutely incapable of engaging with the problematic as we now present it.

Bearing in mind European audiences, he also does not represent himself as a "climate change sceptic" but as someone with ecological sensibilities. It does not seem to have registered with him that for someone who wants to play the ecologist in Europe, an alliance with Reynolds is like taking a revolver and shooting yourself in the head.

[halva]

A message from Chemtrails 911. Actually I am not so sure that the defeat of legislation on weather modification is a "victory", given that the activity itself evidently remains unaffected.


We have some great news for you all! The infamous Senate Bill 517 has been wiped off the calendar. The bill had two years to become law and it failed. It is a wonderful success that the bill got such little support that it could not move forward. You should all feel good about your efforts in stopping this bill from getting passed. However, it is likely that this bill will probably resurface later under a different name and a different bill number. So stay aware and keep on the look out!

Coming up:
FEB 08, 2007 @ 9:00PM - The Discovery Channel special: "Best Evidence - Chemical Contrails". Featuring an interview with Rosalind Peterson - FEB 08, 2007 @ 9:00PM & FEB 09, 2007 @ 1:00AM & FEB 22, 2007 @ 2:00PM.

This should be an exciting presentation. And to think that five years ago main stream media would never even have considered the issue. Of course, we are unsure how they will present the issue. But don’t forget that in 2006, we had Paul Moyer and NBC4 News presented a 2-part series on chemtrails, which was quite good.

There are signs everywhere of our combined accomplishments. Remember when Alex Jones did not want to touch the issue? Now he has notable speakers like Clifford Carmicom and Dr. Nick Begich on his show. People are waking up and taking action everywhere.

We had some success in getting the word out and into the media, but it is now even more important to keep the pressure up. We are now faced with Nobel Prize Laureate Paul Crutzen, Tom Wigley of the National Center for Atmospheric Research, and a flood of propaganda all reporting of how spraying our skies is a last chance effort to save the world and all of humanity. Fear is their game plan and we better get ready for informational combat. Fear is the only way they can push this aerosol spraying forward. We need an immediate halt to their destructive atmospheric behaviors, including chemtrails, HAARP and satellite beams.

We have made some great progress and accomplishments... and together, will continue to do so. So keep spreading the word!

Thank you!!

www.chemtrails911.com

Look Up! Wake Up! Speak Out!

[halva]

Bearing in mind European audiences, he also does not represent himself as a "climate change sceptic" but as someone with ecological sensibilities. It does not seem to have registered with him that for someone who wants to play the ecologist in Europe, an alliance with Reynolds is like taking a revolver and shooting yourself in the head.

Spoken too soon. Our Greek debunker is departing from all American models that I know of and has begun not to deny "global dimming" but to DEFEND the mitigating virtues of pollution. If it weren't for his insistence on anonymity he could almost be described as heroic.

[halva]

Radio station KPFK http://www.kpfk.org will be doing an hour long program on chemtrails Wednesday 7th February at 2pm. They plan to have guests Rosalind Peterson and Clifford Carnicom, and also open up the phones for call-ins during the later part of the
show.

Apparently the programme has been changed to Feb 22 @ 9:00 pm et/pt

[halva]

Not wishing to or not being able to answer some of the questions I was asking him here, Socrates/Jeff Reynolds has found his way back to Megasprayer under the name may41970. Chem doesn't seem to need any public explanation as to whether Socrates/Jeff/may still has nagging doubts in his mind about the honesty/integrity/plausibility of Chem and his forum. It is not even possible to know whether the misunderstandings have been overcome. They are just not up for discussion.

On the other hand, Chem's explanation of why he chose to terminate my - halva's - presence at Megasprayer after some years of my posting there was clearly entirely satisfactory and enlightening. So much so that Socrates thanked him for it. It seems that it was because of my being a drug addict. Too much caffeine addiction, it seems. If only I had come to my senses in time.

[EdSnell]

Not wishing to or not being able to answer some of the questions I was asking him here, Socrates/Jeff Reynolds has found his way back to Megasprayer under the name may41970. Chem doesn't seem to need any public explanation as to whether Socrates/Jeff/may still has nagging doubts in his mind about the honesty/integrity/plausibility of Chem and his forum. Not even possible to know whether the misunderstandings have been overcome. They are just not up for discussion.

On the other hand, Chem's explanation of why he chose to terminate my - halva's - presence at Megasprayer after some years of my posting there was clearly entirely satisfactory and enlightening. So much so that Socrates thanked him for it. It seems that it was because of my being a drug addict. Too much caffeine addiction, it seems. If only I had come to my senses in time.

Just in case some curious, wayward soul had the less than fortunate experience to stumble upon your last post, Wayne, (though I seriously doubt it) let's give them a link to enlighten their curiosty:

Megasprayer (http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=Discussion&action=display&thread=1170856491)

Besides you, Wayne, I wonder if there is anybody in cyberspace that has any positive thoughts about, or any warm feelings toward, you; probably not.

I am amazed at how a random complaint generator (http://www.pakin.org/complaint/) so accurately caught many of your undesirable characteristics, not that you have any character of which to speak:

"Do you ever wake up in the morning thinking, "Mr. Wayne Hall's antics are just another signpost marking our long, steep cultural descent?" Well, so do I. By way of introduction, let me just say that I once had a nightmare in which Mr. Hall was free to crush the remaining vestiges of democracy throughout the world. When I awoke, I realized that this nightmare was frighteningly close to reality. For instance, it is the case both in my nightmare and in reality that the biggest difference between me and Mr. Hall is that Mr. Hall wants to contaminate clear thinking with his humorless drug-induced ravings. I, on the other hand, want to fight for our freedom of speech. I assume that he is unaware of his obligation not to ridicule the accomplishments of generations of great men and women, as this unawareness would be consistent with his prior displays of ignorance. When we tease apart the associations necessary to Mr. Hall's stroppy homilies, we see that Mr. Hall's hariolations are like an enormous communism-spewing machine. We must begin dismantling that structure. We must put a monkey wrench in its gears. And we must bring the communion of knowledge to all of us, because Mr. Hall's argument that cannibalism, wife-swapping, and the murder of infants and the elderly are acceptable behavior is hopelessly flawed and entirely circuitous. Am I the only one who makes that observation? Of course not. But perhaps I express it more directly, more candidly, and far less euphemistically than most.

"I see two problems with Mr. Hall's remarks on a very fundamental level. First, my concern and outrage are not directed solely at him, but at all those who seek to exploit the feelings of charity and guilt that many people have over the plight of the homeless. And second, life isn't fair. We've all known this since the beginning of time, so why is he so compelled to complain about situations over which he has no control? After days of agonized pondering and reflection, I finally came to the conclusion that he motivates people to join his club by using words like "humanity", "compassion", and "unity". This is a great deception. What Mr. Hall really wants to do is eavesdrop on all sorts of private conversations. That's why I am certain that if I asked the next person I meet if he would want Mr. Hall to use psychological tools to trick us into doing whatever licentious dingbats require of us, he would say no. Yet we all stand idly by while Mr. Hall claims that taxpayers are a magic purse that never runs out of gold.

"Mr. Hall's treatises are like a Hydra. They continually acquire new heads and new strength. The only way to stunt their growth is to open minds instead of closing them. The only way to destroy his Hydra entirely is to provide more people with the knowledge that my dream is for tired eyes to open and see clearly, broken spirits to find new energy, and weary arms to find the strength to give peace a chance. Mr. Hall maintains that either the Eleventh Commandment is, "Thou shalt shatter and ultimately destroy our most precious possessions" or that sin is good for the soul. He denies any other possibility. I will never give up. I will never stop trying. And I will use every avenue possible to serve on the side of Truth. Summa summarum, there is more than a mite of palaver in Mr. Wayne Hall's jibes."

[halva]

And this is what he then wrote about you:

I predicted long ago that Ed Snell would bury our heritage, our traditions, and our culture. Now that he has, I'd like to express my thoughts on the matter. Although my approach may appear a bit pedantic, by setting some generative point of view against a structural-taxonomical point of view or vice versa, I intend to argue that he wants to shout direct personal insults and invitations to exchange fisticuffs. Faugh. This is not the first time I've wanted to tell him how wrong he is. But it is the first time I realized that each rung on the ladder of hooliganism is a crisis of some kind. Each crisis supplies an excuse for Ed Snell to make nearby communities victims of environmental degradation and toxic waste dumping. That is the standard process by which domineering scamps start wars, ruin the environment, invent diseases, and routinely do a hundred other things that kill people. I have absolutely no idea why he makes such a big fuss over lexiphanicism. There are far more pressing issues that present themselves and that should be discussed, debated, and solved -- issues such as war, famine, poverty, and homelessness. There is also the lesser issue that the term "idiot savant" comes to mind when thinking of Ed Snell. Admittedly, that term applies only halfway to him, which is why I claim that Ed Snell believes that his op-ed pieces are Right with a capital R. Sorry, but I have to call foul on that one.

It is well known that a careful appraisal of Ed Snell's ramblings raises some thought-provoking issues. But if we don't lift the fog from Ed Snell's thinking, our children will curse us in our graves. Speaking of our children, we need to teach them diligently that it's easy for us to shake our heads at Ed Snell's foolishness and cowardice. It's easy for us to exclaim that we should invite all the people who have been harmed by Ed Snell to continue to express and assert their concerns in a constructive and productive fashion. It's easy for us to say, "Ed Snell's helots have been trained, organized, and motivated to delegitimize our belief systems and replace them with a counter-hegemony that seeks to rip off everyone and his brother." The point is that it's easy for us to say these things because "Ed Snell" has now become part of my vocabulary. Whenever I see someone lead an active disinformation campaign, I tell him or her to stop "Ed Snell-ing". Ed Snell's ravings present us with a riddle: When he looks in the mirror in the morning, does Ed Snell see more than the same, naive face that all predatory, mindless buggers share? We should be able to look into our own souls for the answer. If we do, I suspect we'll find that Ed Snell's causeries represent a backward step of hundreds of years, a backward step into a chasm with no bottom save the endless darkness of death. In summary, it is my prayer that people everywhere will join me in my quest to take advantage of a rare opportunity to examine Ed Snell's worldview from the perspective of its axiology (values) and epistemology (ways of knowing).


Do you think there is some connection between the fact that Chem 11 could presumably remove you from his forum at the push of a button AND DOES NOT DO SO and the fact that Footsoldier keeps coming back here every now and again to make a posting that seems SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to bring Reynolds back?

Do you understand it when I say that I disagree with this approach to debunkers? That I just want you permanently OUT of the discussion?

Those are my first questions.

My second question is: why did you feel it necessary to apologize to Kola for your presence at Megasprayer?

Do you too perhaps want yourself out of the discussion?? If so, that is something at least that we can agree on.

[EdSnell]

And this is what he then wrote about you:

Do you think there is some connection between the fact that Chem 11 could presumably remove you from his forum at the push of a button AND DOES NOT DO SO and the fact that Footsoldier keeps coming back here every now and again to make a posting that seems SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to bring Reynolds back?

Do you understand it when I say that I disagree with this approach to debunkers? That I just want you permanently OUT of the discussion?

Those are my first questions.

My second question is: why did you feel it necessary to apologize to Kola for your presence at Megasprayer?

Do you too perhaps want yourself out of the discussion?? If so, that is something at least that we can agree on.

The "random complaint generator" didn't do very well this time. Oh, well.

I have asked you this before, Wayne: why would Chem11 banish me from his forum? Hopefully, I have said nothing on his forum that would cause him to want to. The reason you do not understand Chem11 is because he is a gentleman. I respect that and attempt to treat him as such.

I did not apologize to Kola. I simply didn't want him going into an uproar and disrupting the forum because I had posted there. I was sincere when I said I wasn't going to be a fixture there. In fact, after February 23, I will no longer be a fixture anywhere on the Internet. That is the day I will unplug from the electrical grid, the phone line, the Internet and the water line, and move to my new home 15 miles from the nearest utility, where I will collect rain water and be powered by solar energy.

I am going to miss you, Wayne, like I would miss a brain tumor.:D

[halva]

Originally Posted by EdSnell
After February 23, I will no longer be a fixture anywhere on the Internet. That is the day I will unplug from the electrical grid, the phone line, the Internet and the water line, and move to my new home 15 miles from the nearest utility, where I will collect rain water and be powered by solar energy.

I am going to miss you, Wayne, like I would miss a brain tumor.


If this is true I congratulate you on this decision, even if taken for the lowest of self-interested motives. It appears that in practical terms you agree with your enemies far more than you have ever admitted.

[halva]

A message from Chemtrails 911. Actually I am not so sure that the defeat of legislation on weather modification is a "victory", given that the activity itself evidently remains unaffected.


We have some great news for you all! The infamous Senate Bill 517 has been wiped off the calendar. The bill had two years to become law and it failed. It is a wonderful success that the bill got such little support that it could not move forward. You should all feel good about your efforts in stopping this bill from getting passed. However, it is likely that this bill will probably resurface later under a different name and a different bill number. So stay aware and keep on the look out!


This is definitely a subject for discussion (not necessarily here). The point isn't just to wait for the next legislative attempt by THEM. The point is to start talking about what legislation WE would have proposed, and will, in our own way and through our own instrumentalities propose. .

The same type of discussion is going on in Europe in relation to the "European Constitution" rejected by French and Dutch voters.

[halva]

The reason you do not understand Chem11 is because he is a gentleman. I respect that and attempt to treat him as such.


One thing before you go, Ed Snell, since you know and understand Chem so much better than I do. Any idea, with the charming letter of recommendation he gives me, why he would like to see me as the new moderator at Gastronamus?

[Big Bunny]

Halva, you are either being provocative or thick or both. Why don't you read the comment in context so that you can see for yourself that we have not mellowed in our regard for you.

[halva]

What is the context that you refer to, BB?

[halva]

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[jayreynolds]

Hello, all,

Just stopped by on a wireless connection to say hello. I've been cruising the sunny Gulf of Mexico for a few weeks having a blast. I see my gambit of divide and conquer is still underway thanks to all my appendages, Wayne, Chem11, etc. In all respects you appear to be doing your jobs well. Remember, the risks are great but the rewards are certainly worth it. Your checks are in the mail.................

Best regards,
Jay

[halva]

.The meaning of the above message from Raynolds is that he is no longer able to pursue an independent disorganizing strategy of his own, that he has been checkmated and can only console himself by making occasional brief visits here to express his vicarious identification with the "divide and rule" strategy of the regime he sees as "representing" him. This daydream can continue to the extent that the remainder of the population stays below the level of consciousness achieved here.

How stable is the regime? To move from chemtrails/geoengineering/climate modification to the issues of 9/11 and its aftermath, note the recent positions of that paragon of the "gatekeeper Left" in Europe George Monbiot:

This is Monbiot's take on the film "Loose Change":
http://tinyurl.com/2tjh8t

[halva]

Virgin, the Dynamo, and the Prize]
By Kelpie Wilson
t r u t h o u t | Environmental Editor

Wednesday 14 February 2007

Like most American kids in the 1960s, I was an avid Star Trek fan and I rooted for every new development in the US space program. I'll never forget staying up past midnight to watch Neil Armstrong take Man's first steps on the moon.

But by the time of the first shuttle disaster in 1986, I was less concerned with the Star Trek mission and more concerned with the fate of the Earth. Apart from the human tragedy of the disaster, the setback to the space shuttle program didn't seem to matter much, and the image of the Challenger flameout at 48,000 feet over Florida seemed symbolic of the utter failure of Western society to create a sustainable civilization on Planet Earth.

The recent release of the IPCC's fourth assessment on climate change is just one more milestone documenting the disintegration of Earth's planetary life-support systems. The world must act quickly, but I am not impressed by the announcement last week that Sir Richard Branson, founder of a company that is building a fleet of excursion vehicles for the space tourism market, has offered a $25 million prize for the invention of new carbon-sequestration technologies.

Branson's space travel company, called Virgin Galactic (in line with his other ventures, Virgin Media, Virgin Trains and Virgin Airways), is building five suborbital spacecraft based on Burt Rutan's X-Prize winning design, SpaceShipOne. Tourists will pay about $200,000 a ticket to spew greenhouse gases into the upper atmosphere and enjoy an hour of bouncing around in microgravity. Presumably, it was the success of the X-Prize competition in producing this space toy that inspired Branson to offer the carbon-sequestration prize, which he calls the Earth Challenge. Sadly, Branson's prize may do more harm than good.

There are two big problems with the Earth Challenge prize. First, and most important, it sends the wrong message to those who are just waking up to the true threat of climate change: it says we can solve this problem by inventing the right techno-fix. Branson himself said it at his news conference announcing the prize: "Man created the problem; therefore Man should solve the problem."

If "Man" is about to jump in and fix the carbon problem, then we'll all be able to carry on with business as usual, right? Yikes! If this perception becomes widespread, then there will be no motivation to change our wasteful habits. We can relax, because we have plenty of coal in the ground and our techno-heroes will find a way to capture and store those pesky carbon molecules out of the way somewhere.

Encouraging complacency is one problem. Then there's the problem that any techno-fix solution big enough to make a difference has the potential for dangerous unintended consequences of planetary magnitude. Ideas like pumping CO2 deep into the ground or the ocean may sound promising, but can create new disasters. For instance, the oceans have already been absorbing much of the CO2 generated during the fossil fuel era, and as a result, they are turning acidic. No one knows how much more acidic the oceans can become before the calcium shells of animals like clams and corals begin to dissolve.

We can also inject CO2 into old oil and gas fields and coal beds - it is being done right now in Norway, Texas and Canada. But in order to be effective as a carbon-sequestration strategy, hundreds of underground reservoirs would need to be created and maintained. Jeff Goodell, writing in his book Big Coal, says that each reservoir would spread out "fifty or so square miles underground, which means that if carbon sequestration does indeed become widespread, tens of thousands of people will be living above giant bubbles of CO2." Leakage is a problem, he says, "CO2 is buoyant underground and can migrate through cracks and faults in the earth, pooling in unexpected places." A 20 percent concentration of odorless CO2 can cause a person to lose consciousness in "a breath or two" and asphyxiate.

And here's an unintended consequence I have never heard discussed - what happens to all of the oxygen in the CO2 molecules that get sequestered? When plants pull CO2 out of the air and use it to grow stems and roots, they recycle the oxygen back into the atmosphere. Are we in danger of burying a needful portion of our oxygen deep in the Earth?

Ultimately, Branson's Earth Challenge prize reflects the same attitude that got us into the climate crisis in the first place. It's a wet dream for engineers who now get to play with a whole planet, acting out their favorite science fiction scenarios. If they want to terraform a planet, I say send them to Mars, but don't experiment with the Earth.

In his landmark critique of Technological Man, The Time Falling Bodies Take to Light, historian William Irwin Thompson observes: "When we have moved beyond the desolation of all our male vanities, from the stock market to the stock pile of rockets, we will be more open and receptive. Open and bleeding like that archaic wound, the vulva, we will be prepared to receive the conception of a new civilization."

The truth is that we already have all the technology that we need to save ourselves. Most of the world does not drive cars, use air conditioning or fly in airplanes, let alone spaceships. Provide an African village with a few solar panels and they can have lights at night, and a refrigerator to store medicines. Add a satellite dish and a computer, and they have the world's knowledge and culture at their fingertips. If the environment around them is healthy, it can provide everything else they need for a good life - water, food, clothing, shelter, musical instruments and the enjoyment of nature.

[halva]

The new, post-carbon civilization will require that we be open to radically new ways of living. At the same time that the industrialized world helps African villagers upgrade their lifestyles to include electric lights and computers, it needs to downgrade its own lifestyles to eliminate wasteful consumption and feel the Earth again.

But what will motivate the rich populations of the industrial world to do this? Conventional wisdom says that they will never give up their wasteful luxuries. They will embrace every techno-fix imaginable before making even the smallest sacrifices, because they feel that they have already won the prize. The prize, in fact, is their monopoly over fossil fuels and the concern is that someone - greens, Arabs, Venezuelans or Russians - will take it away. It's no accident that Daniel Yergin's definitive history of the oil industry is called The Prize.

We must come to see that the ultimate prize is not sitting on top of a pile of consumer goods; the ultimate prize is the miracle of our continued life on this beautiful planet. Unfortunately, Richard Branson's offering of a carbon-sequestration prize perpetuates the dangerous illusion that we can avoid the hard choices because Technological Man will always prevail.

That said, however, perhaps Branson's contest will surprise me. His roster of judges includes the brilliant Australian evolutionary biologist Tim Flannery, who has written The Weather Makers, the best book yet on climate change. Flannery is well-qualified to root out false solutions and sniff out unintended consequences.

And there are many practical things we can do to enhance the natural carbon-sequestration ability of fields and forests, like planting and fertilizing trees and using no-till agriculture. There is even a potentially revolutionary technique waiting to be developed that could greatly accelerate carbon storage in soils.

The technique is called "Terra Preta," Portuguese for "black earth." It is not new. It was invented by an ancient agricultural civilization in the Amazon that made charcoal and buried it the soil. The charcoal absorbs and holds nutrients from manure and supports beneficial microbes. Some of these fertile soils are more than 1000 years old. You can read more about Terra Preta in 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus, by Charles C. Mann.

There is a company called Eprida that is developing a process to manufacture this agricultural charcoal with a biofuel as a co-product. Perhaps they will apply for the Earth Challenge prize and perhaps, if the judges are open to it, their process or some similar process will win the prize.

Survival requires that we restore a balance to our relationship with the Earth. This is the balance that Henry Adams wrote of upon his visit to the great Paris Exposition of 1900, in The Education of Henry Adams. The experience was heady for him as he recognized that the world was then teetering between the pull of two great forces: the powerful engines of the future he encountered in the Hall of Dynamos, and all the spiritual truths of the ancient world as represented by the Virgin of Chartres:

"As he grew accustomed to the great gallery of machines, he began to feel the forty-foot dynamos as a moral force, much as the early Christians felt the Cross. The planet itself seemed less impressive, in its old-fashioned, deliberate, annual or daily revolution, than this huge wheel, revolving within arm's-length at some vertiginous speed, and barely murmuring - scarcely humming an audible warning to stand a hair's-breadth further for respect of power - while it would not wake the baby lying close against its frame."

Now, barely 100 years later, we see that the baby is too close to the frame, and the age of the dynamos has brought us to the brink of disaster. It is this disaster that Richard Branson, possibly with the best of intentions, is responding to. And his prize may yet do some great good, particularly if he honors his creation's namesake, the Virgin of his Virgin Enterprises.

For the Virgin is none other than the ancient Goddess of the Earth. Henry Adams says, "She was Goddess because of her force; she was the animated dynamo; she was reproduction - the greatest and most mysterious of all energies; all she needed was to be fecund."

We don't have to roll over the Earth with our dynamos. We have a much better chance of success if we can find ways to work with the Earth to enhance her fertility and restore her natural cycles.

As Henry Adams noted, wandering through the cathedrals and museums of Paris, the "force" of the Virgin "was the highest energy ever known to man, the creator of four-fifths of his noblest art, exercising vastly more attraction over the human mind than all the steam-engines and dynamos ever dreamed of ... All the steam in the world could not, like the Virgin, build Chartres."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kelpie Wilson is Truthout's environment editor. Trained as a mechanical engineer, she embarked on a career as a forest protection activist, then returned to engineering as a technical writer for the solar power industry. She is the author of Primal Tears, an eco-thriller about a hybrid human-bonobo girl. Greg Bear, author of Darwin's Radio, says: "Primal Tears is primal storytelling, thoughtful and passionate. Kelpie Wilson wonderfully expands our definitions of human and family."

[halva]

Chem 11 posted this at Megasprayer, in relation to Crutzen:


He's being very specific with regards to some equally specific objections, isn't he? Shame his specificity ends when it comes to this 'some bit' of ozone currently being destroyed...


Quote:
He thinks we should at least test his plan


I'm getting the sense that Mr. Crutzen finds all of this deeply amusing, in a smirking sort of way.


Chem 11 posted this at Megasprayer, in relation to Crutzen:


He's being very specific with regards to some equally specific objections, isn't he? Shame his specificity ends when it comes to this 'some bit' of ozone currently being destroyed...


Quote:
He thinks we should at least test his plan


I'm getting the sense that Mr. Crutzen finds all of this deeply amusing, in a smirking sort of way.


My impression of Mr .Crutzen, to the extent one can judge from two brief telephone conversations, is that his general style is glum rather than smirking.

The fact is that people like Crutzen are at the mercy of the 'sceptic' lobby. They don't know how to, or are not allowed to, play politics in the same way as the 'sceptics', with both fists, boots and all, so they sulk, throw mini-tantrums and make outrageous proposals.

Yesterday, as a result of the sudden credibility our group and site has acquired as a result of the conscientious piece of critique submitted of last week's Climate Change conference by the Institute of Energy of South-Eastern Europe (the work of a young Cypriot student specializing in public health subjects) I was able to talk about geoengineering with one of the basic cadre of a key and old-established Greek environmental protection organization.

Almost the first question he asked me is if we are in favour of or against the geoengineering proposals that have been publicized recently. My answer to this was that what is lacking at the moment is an institutional framework within which there can be rational public discussion of these proposals. If we succeed in creating such a framework then our position within the framework will be one of opposition, but in order to get the framework we may have to ally ourselves with people who are in favour.

Crutzen is, or rather may be, one such person. The jury is still out.

But I would say that he is definitely not smirking. To imagine that he is shows bad judgement in my opinion. Lack of psychological acuity.

And Crutzen CERTAINLY has better manners than, e,g, his ineffectual detractor George Monbiot.

[halva]

Some people that I have up until now regarded as my closest internet allies have not been at all sympathetic to my attitude in at the end of this dialogue:

http://www.debatebothsides.com/showpost.php?p=747114&postcount=1137

[halva]

I'm getting the sense that Mr. Crutzen finds all of this deeply amusing, in a smirking sort of way.


If anyone is smirking it will be Edward Teller, from the grave. Nothing would give him more satisfaction than to have invented a scenario where it is liberals like Crutzen who get to play the Dr. Strangelove role while Teller's 'sceptic' mates wow it to the masses with their invective against the Chicken Littles, the hysterics, the danger-mongers, the politicisers of science.

It is conceivable that vanity of this kind could lay behind this whole scenario. It is any less plausible than the Star Wars programme for shooting down the nuclear missiles that the two superpowers would have agreed to abolish under the Reykvavik-Agreement-that-Might-have-been? Equally Teller's brainchild.

[halva]

SPECIAL ON THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL ON CHEMTRAILS!


On Air (et/pt): FEB 22 2007 @ 09:00 PM
FEB 23 2007 @ 01:00 AM
MAR 04 2007 @ 04:00 PM
Chemical Contrails
Don't miss this upcoming Discovery Channel Special on "Chemical
Contrails"
After more than eight years of controversy and censorship, the
Discovery
Channel is set to bring "chemtrails" into living rooms across North
America at 9PM, February 22nd, 2007.

The producers ask: "What is in those fuel emissions, and what causes
them
to linger for hours and link up with one another like a ghostly blanket
that seems to affect the weather and perhaps our health?" Are lingering
jet trails seen by millions of people "potentially toxic 'chemical
trails' emitted intentionally as part of secret geo-engineering
experiments or weather-weaponization tests?"

To answer these questions, "Best Evidence" has spent months asking
"experts and passionate observers on both sides" to present their best
evidence exposing decades of weather modification experiments.
Featuring
an extended conversation with original chemtrails investigator William
Thomas, as well as many other chemtrails researchers and debunkers, the
show's field producer has told willthomas.net that this first-ever
television special on chemtrails will be "spectacular"

Premiere: Feb 22nd @ 9 pm est - 2007

http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/best-evidence/episode/episode_02.html

[EdSnell]

Right in there with Bigfoot, Roswell, cattle mutilations and other hoaxes and science fiction; exactly where it belongs.

In other words, not to be taken seriously. :D

[halva]

If you are sincere, which you may well be, I pity you.

The best decision you made in your life was to get away from the Internet.

[Lou]

Right in there with Bigfoot, Roswell, cattle mutilations and other hoaxes and science fiction; exactly where it belongs.

In other words, not to be taken seriously. :D

OMG, Cattle mutilations (and other livestock) not taken seriously?

You have to be kidding, only a moron would make such a statement given that since the 1970's when the Colorado Cattleman's Association announced that it was offering a $Twenty five thousand dollar reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of anyone involved in the ongoing livestock mutilations. ( guess they where just kidding about that )

Since the mid 1970's the mutilations have continued unabated and unsolved to date with not so much as one person caught, let along convicted of these mutilations spanning twenty seven western states and substantial cash rewards offered by most of those states which consider these mutilations crimes ( by non predators ) and they have been and are taking the issue very seriously.

Do a search on State investigations into these ongoing livestock mutilations and you will see just how serious the problem is, mutilations are just no taking place within the United States since the 1970's but worldwide and only an idiot could possibly believe that all of these livestock mutilations taking place are occurring due to natural predation when investigations have proven that a high percentage of the livestock involved where dropped from a great height after sustaining surgical exsanguation of blood, body fluids, organs and tissue.

It should be noted that in not one case of an animal(s) being mutilated has anyone observed a single person(s) or persons belonging to any Satanic cults, those creating a hoax or natural predators doing the mutilating and with so many state and federal agencies involved for nearly four decades now in trying to solve these crimes is it not reasonable to assume that a higher intelligence is at work and involved with these ongoing mutilation crimes?

Serious Ed, come on, why don't you get serious and get educated on the subject before you open up your flapper, your making old dim bulb Bush look like the smart one. :D

[EdSnell]

OMG, Cattle mutilations (and other livestock) not taken seriously?

You have to be kidding, only a moron would make such a statement given that since the 1970's when the Colorado Cattleman's Association announced that it was offering a $Twenty five thousand dollar reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of anyone involved in the ongoing livestock mutilations. ( guess they where just kidding about that )

Since the mid 1970's the mutilations have continued unabated and unsolved to date with not so much as one person caught, let along convicted of these mutilations spanning twenty seven western states and substantial cash rewards offered by most of those states which consider these mutilations crimes ( by non predators ) and they have been and are taking the issue very seriously.

Do a search on State investigations into these ongoing livestock mutilations and you will see just how serious the problem is, mutilations are just no taking place within the United States since the 1970's but worldwide and only an idiot could possibly believe that all of these livestock mutilations taking place are occurring due to natural predation when investigations have proven that a high percentage of the livestock involved where dropped from a great height after sustaining surgical exsanguation of blood, body fluids, organs and tissue.

It should be noted that in not one case of an animal(s) being mutilated has anyone observed a single person(s) or persons belonging to any Satanic cults, those creating a hoax or natural predators doing the mutilating and with so many state and federal agencies involved for nearly four decades now in trying to solve these crimes is it not reasonable to assume that a higher intelligence is at work and involved with these ongoing mutilation crimes?

Serious Ed, come on, why don't you get serious and get educated on the subject before you open up your flapper, your making old dim bulb Bush look like the smart one. :D


A personal question for you, Lou: were your eyes bugging out while you wrote that?:D

[EdSnell]

The best decision you made in your life was to get away from the Internet.

You are actually correct for once, Wayne. ;)

[halva]

For heaven's sake. We have one life.

What's the point of doing something one doesn't believe in.

[Lou]

You are actually correct for once, Wayne. ;)

Well then Ed, why the HELL are you still here making a complete ASS out of yourself then ?

Maybe you could join your mentor 'Reynolds' working on a garbage barge in the Gulf, at least you would be doing something useful for a change.

And for my eyes bugging out, no, they where not but my stomach was turning at your obvious stupidity on the subject of livestock mutilations. :D

[Jeff Reynolds]

Right in there with Bigfoot, Roswell, cattle mutilations and other hoaxes and science fiction; exactly where it belongs.

In other words, not to be taken seriously. :D

That's the tinfoil by association strategy. That is what I'm talking about when I say that all chemtrail forums are fake. I thought I had found a place at Gastronamus where free speech and sincere research into the "chemical contrails" would be protected. For the longest time I was in denial of the woo-woo factor, I ignored the simplistic bashing of Israel by Halva and Swamp, and their linkings to Rense. Sure, Israel sucks right now since Rabin was assassinated by fascists. But Swamp and Halva fit into that divide and conquer Nazi spam we have all seen on message boards all across the internet. I also ignored Lou's woo-woo comments about population culling and orgone.

I recently went through some CTC archives, and it is now clear that Swamp, CDisNuts, Tinfoil1776, BigJoe, Mech, etc. were all full of woo-woo tinfoil. They fabricated this us versus them, chemmie versus debunker atmosphere. They flooded that website with tons of tinfoil.

There's one thread lodged in there where BigBunny talks about how the bird flu was set to kill billions of Asians. I can find the thread, but basically he said that chemtrails were about population culling. Now I can also track down the quote he made that the planes behind the chemtrails are from your commercial planes leaving your local airports.

Fortunately this scam has finally been uncovered. Fakes are trying to get the masses to believe that this new problem of persistent contrails whiting out skies are a result of all aircraft. That is simply not true. ALL AIRCRAFT ARE NOT INVOLVED!!!!!!!

And why should you be taken seriously Ed Snell? On the contrails some sanity thread I have just posted your propaganda that pollution is behind the white outs. You and Foot Soldier seem to be on the same page. Is that a fair observation?

I believe that at least 80% of chemtrail forum posters are fakes. The plan has been to round up all the chemmies into the few big forums, then they would be drowned out by the fake believers and fake debunkers. Then when anybody learns about chemtrails they will google their way over to CTC and Carnicom's. If they aren't swayed by the tinfoil by association, the fallback disinfo plan is to have such visitors influenced by the fake copy and pasters to think that this is just more aircraft interacting with more pollution.

[Lou]

That's the tinfoil by association strategy. That is what I'm talking about when I say that all chemtrail forums are fake. I thought I had found a place at Gastronamus where free speech and sincere research into the "chemical contrails" would be protected. For the longest time I was in denial of the woo-woo factor, I ignored the simplistic bashing of Israel by Halva and Swamp, and their linkings to Rense. Sure, Israel sucks right now since Rabin was assassinated by fascists. But Swamp and Halva fit into that divide and conquer Nazi spam we have all seen on message boards all across the internet. I also ignored Lou's woo-woo comments about population culling and orgone.

I recently went through some CTC archives, and it is now clear that Swamp, CDisNuts, Tinfoil1776, BigJoe, Mech, etc. were all full of woo-woo tinfoil. They fabricated this us versus them, chemmie versus debunker atmosphere. They flooded that website with tons of tinfoil.

There's one thread lodged in there where BigBunny talks about how the bird flu was set to kill billions of Asians. I can find the thread, but basically he said that chemtrails were about population culling. Now I can also track down the quote he made that the planes behind the chemtrails are from your commercial planes leaving your local airports.

Fortunately this scam has finally been uncovered. Fakes are trying to get the masses to believe that this new problem of persistent contrails whiting out skies are a result of all aircraft. That is simply not true. ALL AIRCRAFT ARE NOT INVOLVED!!!!!!!

And why should you be taken seriously Ed Snell? On the contrails some sanity thread I have just posted your propaganda that pollution is behind the white outs. You and Foot Soldier seem to be on the same page. Is that a fair observation?

I believe that at least 80% of chemtrail forum posters are fakes. The plan has been to round up all the chemmies into the few big forums, then they would be drowned out by the fake believers and fake debunkers. Then when anybody learns about chemtrails they will google their way over to CTC and Carnicom's. If they aren't swayed by the tinfoil by association, the fallback disinfo plan is to have such visitors influenced by the fake copy and pasters to think that this is just more aircraft interacting with more pollution.

Hey Jeff,

Just what in the HELL is your friggen problem with me, do you really want to start some crap with me, I only made comments on population control and Orgone in response to others who posted on the subjects and I have done a God Dammed site more than you have ever done or ever will do, as far as I can see, in proving that 'Chemtrail Spraying' has been and is going on worldwide.

You better take a step back boy, this isn't "Tinfoil" you wet behind the ears punk !

I'm fast loosing any respect that I once had for you, get a grip.
_________________________________________________

My name is Louis ( Lou ) Aubuchont, and I live in Parsonsfield, Maine
(USA). I have been a Chemtrail activist since 1996-97 when I first started observing the high strangeness of
what has come to be known worldwide as "Chemtrail Spraying"- hereafter referred to as 'Anomalous Spreading Trail(s)' within this text.

My reasons for presenting the following information are simple: I only wish to share with others what I have found that conclusively proves - via my "The Spreading Trail Identification System" empirical evidence - that aerosol spraying has and is taking place worldwide, and much of it we are observing as 'Anomalous Spreading Trail(s).'

It is a system based on the information found at http://watchthesky.org/chems/chemdata.htm that not only uses
the daily (NWS) Upper Air Sounding Data, but other empirical sources of data as well in determining
if the trails that we are observing are just normal (Jet Aircraft) contrails that can, under the right atmospheric conditions, form persistent contrails, or if in fact many of these trails are artifacts of Aerosol Spraying that produce 'Anomalous Spreading Trail's,' which mimic the properties of normal (Jet Aircraft) contrails.

Note: ( Credit to Scott Stevens / http://www.weatherwars.info/index.php for his inspiring help in the formulation of my "Spreading Trail Identification System".)

To date I have found that by using the following formula of available information in concert with personal observations it is possible to determine contrail, or persistent contrail from 'Anomalous Spreading Trails' with nearly 100% certainty. Of course, no system is fool proof, and there are instances when this method is diminished in it's ability - bad weather, overcast that does not permit observation, etc. However on the whole my system works very well under normal conditions when observation is not obscured.

It might sound complicated but it's not. Anyone who can count to four can do this, including me, and I an not a scientist, just an average person who is interested in finding the truth with regard to these 'Anomalous Spreading Trail's' that so often pervade our skies these days.

Certainly people of your sophistication can use my system with ease and should use it, if for no other reason than to prove to yourselves that there is indeed activity going on in our skies other than the "Normal" jet contrail activity that we are being told is all that we are observing.

Much information abounds on the internet with regard to this subject. Most people who believe that there is some sort of worldwide aerosol spraying program(s) underway are thought of as conspiracy theorists at best, hoaxers and fringe lunatics at worst, and this subject is neglected and shunned by the main stream media - with the exception of a few newspaper articles and blurbs via television - the subject has be relegated to a few good internet websites and more bad ones which delve into wild speculation and conjecture with regard to these 'Anomalous Spreading Trails.'

I subscribe to my own theories of why this worldwide aerosol activity is taking place but I will not go into it within this text as that is a subject better left for another time. I only wish to show to the reader that within this presentation by using my system, it is possible to determine normal contrails / persistent contrails from 'Anomalous Spreading Trails' by the use of available scientific data and ones own observations. And there is no speculation or conjecture to it - just facts that are provided by credible, reliable sources of data.

As laid out below my "Spreading Trail Identification System" may seem complicated but it is only four sources of data and when used together as,...Observations + Aircraft Tracking + Upper Air Sounding Data + Aviation Weather Icing Data, they add up to empirical evidence which proves what many of us already know to be fact: that aerosol spraying and 'Anomalous Spreading Trails' from the spraying are a reality.

Cont,

[Lou]

Cont,

"The Spreading Trail Identification System"

By
Louis Aubuchont
*******

#1. Observe trails and spreading trail activity in real time./ note
times. / note sky conditions at the time./ note types of trails being
made and numbers./ identify aircraft involved if possible, numbers (how
many), altitude and directions of flight./ photograph, if possible, with
date, time stamp for record./ note any abnormal trail activity from that
of a normal contrail, grid formations, parallel trails, circular or 'X'
type trails, stop and go, or skipping-broken trails, falling or "drippy"
trails, etc...

****
Normal contrails should form behind aircraft at high altitudes in various straight line
lengths due to atmospheric conditions, and dissipate within 5-10 minutes
of forming. Any deviation from this (as noted above) constitutes
abnormal contrail / 'Anomalous Spreading Trail' behavior.

****
Normal persistent contrails form /only rarely / at high altitudes
when Atmospheric conditions ( temperature -40 C. and 60% + humidity) are just right. It is not normal
to see persistent contrails forming with regularity as the Atmospheric
conditions that allow them to form is sporadic and dictated by nature -
not every time that an aircraft flies over head.

****
#2. Using http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KPWM or other flight
tracking program, determine whether or not the aircraft that you are
observing are being tracked in near real time by the tracking program.


****
Most commercial aircraft are tracked by the FAA within the U.S. Other countries have like
tracking programs and in turn that tracking data is available to the public via tracking programs
such as 'Flightaware' and 'Flight Explorer' in near real time. If the aircraft
that you have observed do not show up on these tracking programs then
you must assume that they are exempt from being tracked. Only military type aircraft,
and some Government aircraft are exempt from tracking.

****
Within the United States many times aircraft observed and reported to be involved with this aerosol
spraying, and these 'Anomalous Spreading Trails,' do not show up on these tracking programs.
That should cause many questions to be asked as it is against FAA regulations as well as
military flight regulations for any large body jet aircraft to conduct
operations, maneuvers, or training exercises over populated civilian
areas without notification by the Secretary of Defense ninety days prior
to any such operation - and only then with the express permission of the
Governor(s) of the affected state(s) under a Special Use
Authorization of limited time only under U.S. laws and regulations governing air space use.

****
Operations of any kind by military aircraft over any state must be
sanctioned by said state(s) unless National Security is at issue.

****
#3. Check the NWS (National Weather Service) Upper Air Sounding Data at
http://weather.uwyo.edu/upperair/sounding.html and determine the
temperature and humidity values at flight altitudes - keeping in mind
that for normal contrails to form, linger, and spread to persistent
contrails temperatures must be -40 C. or lower, and humidity values must
be 60% or higher. If one or both of these conditions are not present
then normal contrails/persistent contrails can not form unless there is
Clear Air Ice Saturation. ( See item #4.)

****
Much about using the NWS Upper Air Sounding Data has been subject to
'debunking.' Even though it is sound, reliable science that is used in
meteorology and aviation every day, the skeptics assert that this data
alone is not credible. So, other sources of reliable,
verifiable, empirical data are also used in conjunction with the Upper Air Sounding Data
to support and reinforce said data.

****
As it turns out, the use of multiple data sources truly support each other,
and form a sustainable, comprehensive
"Spreading Trail Identification System."

****
#4. Check with http://adds.aviationweather.gov/icing/ for pilot reports
and jet aircraft flight level ice data with regard to flight level icing and areas of Clear Air Ice
Saturation and Ice Advisories to determine if the area of your
observation(s) has possible Clear Air Ice Saturation or not.
(Note: 'Pilot Reports' for specific areas of icing in icing advisory areas. Even though icing
advisory areas are usually large, they may or may not produce icing conditions, and noting the 'Pilot Reports' are a must in determining the true presence of 'Clear Air Ice'.)


****
By using the Aviation Weather Icing Data and Pilot Reports of icing you can rule out (or not) the
possibility that the spreading trails that you have observed are due to
Clear Air Ice Saturation. This very same data has been used by those
debunking in saying that the spreading trails are due to Clear Air Ice
Saturation. This Aviation Weather Icing page above takes care of that problem
very well.

****
By using these above sites, and information in them, plus your own
observations, you should be able to determine whether or not you are
observing normal contrail/persistent contrail activity, or 'Anomalous Spreading Trail'
activity with a very high degree of certainty that even the
most staunch skeptic should find to be compelling, empirical evidence.

****
Using only one source to determine normal persistent contrails from 'Anomalous Spreading Trails' can be
uncertain and the results can be argued against. But by using three
sources plus your own observations to confirm the difference between
normal contrails/persistent contrails and 'Anomalous Spreading Trails' is just good research based on science - not speculation, and
provides scientific evidence which conclusively proves that aerosol
spraying is taking place on a large scale worldwide.

****
I would ask that users of my "Spreading Trail Identification System" verify the voracity of my claims with regard to this system via testing yourself or by having anyone that you
chose use and test it. In fact I would expect nothing less than a
rigorous testing by which to prove this to yourselves as it has already proven to me many times now.

****
Louis Aubuchont
Parsonsfield, Maine
****

[Jeff Reynolds]

Hey Jeff,

Just what in the HELL is your friggen problem with me, do you really want to start some crap with me, I only made comments on population control and Orgone in response to others who posted on the subjects and I have done a God Dammed site more than you have ever done or ever will do, as far as I can see, in proving that 'Chemtrail Spraying' has been and is going on worldwide.

You better take a step back boy, this isn't "Tinfoil" you wet behind the ears punk !

I'm fast loosing any respect that I once had for you, get a grip.

I don't think you have done squat for authentic chemtrail awareness. In your above post, you pay homage to Scott Stevens, a strawman if there ever was one. Stevens is the same dude who posted that a Japanese mafia was behind some weather wars. You need to not only learn how to spell, you need to completely disassociate yourself from tinfoil of all persuasions.

Plus, you are all over CTC without ever pointing out the bullshit tinfoil that is rampant at that X Conspiracy network place. I have never seen you try to disassociate yourself from the tinfoil. While the onion farmer has his William Cooper problem, you have a whole network of fakes all around and next to whatever posts you have made.

How come you have never figured out that your is different from you're?????
You are the punk for posting at tinfoil websites without critiquing such tinfoil.

You are embedded in the tinfoil doodoo. It's because of punks like you, Swampgas, Halva, and all the other fakes that the tinfoil by association strategy is succeeding as the agenda moves into the Yaak/Foot Soldier/ Big Bunny/ Arcadia is Satan/ Chem11 agenda that all aircraft are involved.

Whatever good you have posted simply became instantly discredited because it was side by side with all the other nonsense. So you can take your orgone and population culling nonsense and your support for Stevens and all the nutjob fake posters on these chemtrail forums, and shove it bitch.

So keep propping up Halva and all the other asshats with your (not you're dumbass) nutjob fixation on Jay Reynolds. Keep posting at tinfoil websites without debunking the tinfoil nonsense. You're (not your dumbass) nothing but a concern troll, and I would not be surprised if you were part of this fake chemtrail forum scheme.

[Lou]

Jeff,

Maybe that was a bit harsh but damm it, you spout off about your right free speech but then turn around and condemn everyone else who speaks there opinions on various subject as though your the only one that's right.

Who stood up for your free speech at Gesture when you where pissing everyone off and they wanted to ban you, hmmm, oh, that's right, it was Lou.

I don't get you at all, why are you attacking everyone of the veteran chemtrail folks that have been on the issue from the get-go, have you suffered a head injury lately or what?

People have a right to there own opinions and the right to express them freely, if you don't agree, take it up with them one on one instead of lumping everyone into this "Tinfoil" conspiracy that you seem to have concocted and try to remember that "We" are good guy's, that is unless your siding with the likes of Lord Reynolds and that YAAK-ASS, Ed Snell or whoever he is today.

Man, lighten up on people, your getting a real reputation for being a trouble maker and bitch, people are just sick of your constant dissing of them. Your going to end up just being ignored for it.

End of story. :rolleyes:

[Lou]

"Who stood up for your free speech at Gastro when you where pissing everyone off and they wanted to ban you, hmmm, oh, that's right, it was Lou."

Now your crapping on me as well as everyone else, thanks, that's real big of you.

Your pathetic !

[Jeff Reynolds]

Jeff,

Maybe that was a bit harsh but damm it, you spout off about your right free speech but then turn around and condemn everyone else who speaks there opinions on various subject as though your the only one that's right.

Who stood up for your free speech at Gesture when you where pissing everyone off and they wanted to ban you, hmmm, oh, that's right, it was Lou.

I don't get you at all, why are you attacking everyone of the veteran chemtrail folks that have been on the issue from the get-go, have you suffered a head injury lately or what?

People have a right to there own opinions and the right to express them freely, if you don't agree, take it up with them one on one instead of lumping everyone into this "Tinfoil" conspiracy that you seem to have concocted and try to remember that "We" are good guy's, that is unless your siding with the likes of Lord Reynolds and that YAAK-ASS, Ed Snell or whoever he is today.

Man, lighten up on people, your getting a real reputation for being a trouble maker and bitch, people are just sick of your constant dissing of them. Your going to end up just being ignored for it.

End of story. :rolleyes:

It's Gastro, not Gesture. So you don't think there are "believers" who are fakes? Have you any knowledge of what disinformation is? You talk about all these chemtrail veterans, but you conveniently ignore all the tinfoil being spouted by them. You continue to prop up SwampAss and Halvar's concoction of debunkers versus believers. I am not the one siding with Lord reynolds or Yaak-attack. It is fake believers who are siding with those two.

Why can't you get it through your thick skull that your and you're are two different words? It reminds me of all the thread margins you blew out because of your inability to post links properly.

Your is a possessive. You're means you are. How friggin dumb are you that you can't figure that out?

And why would I care if I am ignored by fakes and useful idiot woowoos? I did nothing to get banned from Gastronamus. I was banned because I was too close to figuring out the whole scam that is chemtrail forums.

[Jeff Reynolds]

People have a right to there own opinions and the right to express them freely,


It's their not there. Did you even graduate grammar school?

[Jeff Reynolds]

"Who stood up for your free speech at Gastro when you where pissing everyone off and they wanted to ban you, hmmm, oh, that's right, it was Lou."

Now your crapping on me as well as everyone else, thanks, that's real big of you.

Your pathetic !

Dude, you attacked me first at CTC calling my post long-winded. So screw you and your hypocrisy. Screw you and your buddy Scott Stevens arguing that Japanese mafias are involved in weather wars.

"Your pathetic" huh? my pathetic something? or did you mean "you're pathetic", as in YOU ARE PATHETIC TINFOIL COMING ACROSS AS STRAWMEN. :D

[Lou]

Dude, you attacked me first at CTC calling my post long-winded. So screw you and your hypocrisy. Screw you and your buddy Scott Stevens arguing that Japanese mafias are involved in weather wars.

"Your pathetic" huh? my pathetic something? or did you mean "you're pathetic", as in YOU ARE PATHETIC TINFOIL COMING ACROSS AS STRAWMEN. :D

Well, it's just pointless arguing with a moron so I make this so easy that even you can understand it, ( CLICK ) your gone BITCH, ignored forever.

Increase 1776 was right all along about you, why don't you just join your buddy debunker friends since you like to attack everyone so much, you have nothing, you are nothing but an insult dog !

Have fun A-Hole, Johnny Cash sends his regards !!!!!!!! :D

[CDsNuTz]

This is the PM I sent Swamp Nov. 4th:

" (No Subject)
« Message sent on Nov 4th, 2006 at 10:15am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think Soc needs to take a chill.. He reminds me of us back in CTC's last good days...Now that I've been away from it for awhile I can honestly say that Soc is being overly paranoid. Being on the outside looking in , His paranoia does as much damage as any debunker could have hoped to do..

PEACE"

To bad he'll be seeking answers all by himself...

[halva]

Socrates started posting again when Lou returned to take some shots at Ed Snell, who has told us in any case that he is leaving in a few days. That is not "blaming" Lou for Socrates, but it is worth thinking about.

[Lou]

This is the PM I sent Swamp Nov. 4th:

" (No Subject)
« Message sent on Nov 4th, 2006 at 10:15am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think Soc needs to take a chill.. He reminds me of us back in CTC's last good days...Now that I've been away from it for awhile I can honestly say that Soc is being overly paranoid. Being on the outside looking in , His paranoia does as much damage as any debunker could have hoped to do..

PEACE"

To bad he'll be seeking answers all by himself...

Man, you got that right CDsNutz.

Who need the debunkers when supposedly one of our own is doing their job for them so well.

I regret deeply now sticking up for Jeff /Soc as I see that he thinks that everyone of the long time pro chem posters are just fakes, including me I assume, this guy is kicked to the curb as far as I'm concerned because all that he does is find fault with others and does nothing to advance the cause of finding the truth with regard to the chemtrail spraying, he's not worth my time.

He can keep on but I'll not spend one more minute on him, he's a back stabber big time.

Later, I'm back out.

[CDsNuTz]

Another of my own observations was about kola, I just keep wondering why socrates and kola were such good buds....After going back over kola' posts it seems to me that kola is the tinfoil socrates was always calling out. It doesn't take much to figure it out kola bought and built a chembuster, kola also believes all planes make chemstrails, he said he'd be looking for them on his trip to Vermont and also asking the pilot about it after the flight.He thinks they're spraying only his little eastern CO. town of 2500..These little types of inconsistencies always set off the alarms for me.Theres a couple of other things that slipped my mind at this moment but anyway you all be the judge.

It's all right here...

http://gastronamus.proboards27.com/index.cgi?action=userrecentposts&user=kola

[Jeff Reynolds]

Another of my own observations was about kola, I just keep wondering why socrates and kola were such good buds....After going back over kola' posts it seems to me that kola is the tinfoil socrates was always calling out. It doesn't take much to figure it out kola bought and built a chembuster, kola also believes all planes make chemstrails, he said he'd be looking for them on his trip to Vermont and also asking the pilot about it after the flight.He thinks they're spraying only his little eastern CO. town of 2500..These little types of inconsistencies always set off the alarms for me.Theres a couple of other things that slipped my mind at this moment but anyway you all be the judge.

It's all right here...

http://gastronamus.proboards27.com/index.cgi?action=userrecentposts&user=kola

Nice try Rense Bot!

You sound a lot like Arcadia and Mech, Tinfoil1776. I think you are part of some internet scam.

I was the one who called out Kola on a hidden forum at Gastro. When SwampAss let Kola post, I was shocked. I posted Kola is a Disinformation Nut and SwampAss moved it to the hidden forum. There was even a second thread I started questioning Kola's motives in the public section, but he never responded, so I figured he was contrite for any mistakes he might have posted. He had called some dude at Carnicom's a debunker for linking global warming to chemtrails. I too thought that chemtrails were about off-setting global warming. But the results are the planet is warming up faster because of the chemtrails. I learned to see that just maybe someone could naively think that the person had been a debunker. SwampAss sent me a private e-mail telling me that Kola was Native-American, so he believes in thunderbeings or sylphs. I had thought he was tied in with that Educate-yourself or whatever place as Jeff Wells is. I also saw him dogging someone named dayglo at Carnicom's. That didn't make sense to me either.

I did see that Kola was interested in chembusters. I thought I saw where he wasn't sure if they worked or if Rick Moors could show him one working. I didn't realize he believes that all aircraft are involved. If true, then yeah, Kola is sounding shadier by the day. But Kola on the otherhand was the only person to point out that Tinfoil1776 had crossed the line with the Johnny Cash FU. He was the only one who was logical on when the chemtrail subliminal thread was disrespected.

If Gastronamus is open to the public and there are no shenanigans going on with my posts, I invite anyone to check out the truth. You Rense Bots are pitiful. Just keep posting you jackass. I guarantee that of all the postings here, yours are the most actively scrolled past. You are the dumbass of the operation.

But you all are now useless like Lord Reynolds. People will eventually understand how chemtrails were hidden from masses of people through your tinfoil by association. You all truly are the lowest form of debunker, those in fake chemmie clothes.

Shouldn't you be off to Rense, What Really Happened, or Conspiracy Planet?????

Shouldn't you? Oh, you're fake, or Lou would write your fake, because he never passed grammar school English, you are fakes having a big laugh at naive people you herd towards stupid websites full of disinfo crap. And you too are a no good bitch. :D

[halva]

Socrates why are you providing such a disincentive against people posting here? Would you like me to be the sole survivor at this place?

I have invited you to address me directly, but you are too gutless to do it.

[increase 1776]

Increase 1776 was right all along about you, why don't you just join your buddy debunker friends since you like to attack everyone so much, you have nothing, you are nothing but an insult dog !

Have fun A-Hole, Johnny Cash sends his regards !!!!!!!!
That sucking sound we all heard a few weeks back,was socrates head coming out of SwampGas's ASS.:D :D :D You need to get back on your meds.You aren't cured.You need help. Jeff /socrates/Sybil/........ Here's what the doctor recomended. Here's Johnny !

[Lou]

That sucking sound we all heard a few weeks back,was socrates head coming out of SwampGas's ASS.:D :D :D You need to get back on your meds.You aren't cured.You need help. Jeff /socrates/Sybil/........ Here's what the doctor recomended. Here's Johnny !

I'll second that_BIG TIME.

[EdSnell]

Typical chemmie childishness!

[halva]

Two more days.

[CDsNuTz]

Here's one for you, Special Ed...

Woot only 2 more days....

[CDsNuTz]

I was the one who called out Kola on a hidden forum at Gastro. When SwampAss let Kola post, I was shocked. I posted Kola is a Disinformation Nut and SwampAss moved it to the hidden forum. There was even a second thread I started questioning Kola's motives in the public section, but he never responded.

Heh, guess i missed that one..Considering your last 2 months bashing EVERYONE at Gastro, it comes as no surprise I passed right over what you posted..Plus i was gone 2 weeks and may have missed a few things here and there. The one thing I didn't miss was you...




And you too are a no good bitch. :D

You'd never say that to my face, Not without leaving minus a few teeth!!


Just in case you didn't get the last two....




I'm sure arcadia won't mind me giving you this one either.

[EdSnell]

You'd never say that to my face, Not without leaving minus a few teeth!!

Oh my, another Internet tough guy. I'm sure everyone is cringing and cowering at your display of brutality.

More than likely, a scrawny little wimp pounding away on the computer keys.

You do have one positive quality, though: you make everyone else look good by comparison.

:D

[halva]

You are setting the example for all of us with your promised heroic withdrawal.

[halva]

From the local newspaper of Aigina “Nea Epochi” (New Age) Friday 16th February 2007.

"Mourtzis-Bush: Round one to the mayor" by Costas Ioannou

It is not necessary to be a scientist to understand that the planet is frying. And this is not a new discovery. The debate by now has to do with the way humanity is called upon to react to this situation. The basic if not the only cause is atmospheric pollution and this is what the controversy is all about because atmospheric pollution means economic vested interests. This is made abundantly clear by the stance of Bush, who refuses to commit himself to any reductions, in this way paying off the debts he incurred pre-electorally.

Only recently Bush acknowledged the existence of the problem, but not its extent. According to a certain radio station he even spoke of solutions that are being sought from the science of ‘geoengineering’. These solutions include the launching of huge mirrors to reflect part of the solar radiation back into space, and the spraying of the upper levels of the atmosphere with particles of sulphur which will have the same anticipated effect: the reduction in global temperatures.

Precisely this practice is already under implementation (though it is not known to what extent and over how large an area) and is called ‘chemtrails’ or aerial spraying with chemicals. Since as early as 2003 Aigina has been a world pioneer in action against this activity.

Observations have been recorded from all over the world of this spraying, which is recognizable from the ground as it presents certain specific characteristics. These characteristics have been noted in the case of aircraft flying over Aigina. The permanent resident of Aigina Wayne Hall was familiar with the reports and correspondingly active. As a result of an interview he gave to the Sunday Ethnos newspaper, the municipal councilor Nektarios Koukoulis came into contact with the then mayor Mourtzis and finally also persuaded the Council to take a decision in favour of legal action against whoever was responsible. The name of Aigina reached as far as Vienna, but the case did not continue because the mayor dropped the lawsuit on advice from his legal services. But the subject did not cease being discussed and indeed recently reached the Greek Parliament, in a question from the parliamentarian Xirotiri.

Finally, as it turns out today, not only does the problem exist but an attempt is under way to instill the notion in the mind of the world that covering up the problem is more feasible and desirable than solving it. Solving it would involve some discomfort for the companies that pollute and naturally also a cost in terms of adjustment to new environmentally-friendly technologies.

And so it is that the story of the aerial spraying which is just beginning at the global level, here in Aigina is simply…..continuing. The new mayor does not appear to be indifferent. Indeed the word is that the mayor has assigned Mr. Grigoris Maltezos the task of compiling further data on the spraying so that it can be discussed by the Council.

Extract from the book ‘Chemtrails’ by Christian Haderer (Vienna, 2005).

Anyone who becomes involved with chemtrails soon discovers that in German-speaking countries too there is hardly anything published in print that gets beyond the retailing of conspiracy theories. Most relevant publications concern themselves with chemtrails as a weapon for mass destruction of humanity. The first impression, that the phenomenon is an idea in the heads of some of our more paranoid fellow-citizens, is thus understandable. Nevertheless there is material and other evidence that speaks so clearly for the real existence of chemtrails that one is forced to wonder why there is so little wondering. Especially when facts are on record that lend the chemtrail evidence additional weight. For example in June 2003 the municipal council of Aigina in Greece lodged a complaint ‘against unknown parties’ spraying from aircraft chemical substances harmful to health such as aluminium particles.

[Lou]

You are setting the example for all of us with your promised heroic withdrawal.

Now Wayne, Yaak-Ass can not withdraw, who would we have to laugh at if he left, I say bring on the clowns. :D :D :D

[Jeff Reynolds]

These are clearly disinfo agents. The one thing they all have in common is their tinfoil by association strategy. I don't mind the Johnny FU here, this is friggin Debate Both Sides. But the thing is that these fakes originally from CTC, replaced by even more bizarre fakes at that forum they themselves referred to as too nutty, they go to Gastronamus, then the Tinfoil1776 ends up back at CTC. That doesn't add up.

They did the same thing at Gastro just because I nicely remarked that I didn't believe in their tinfoil, and SwampAss blew his cover by not calling out Tinfoil1776 for breaking proper forum protocol. Kola was the only one who spoke up posting that there was no need for that. SwampAss bit his tongue. Arcadia said I drew first blood. They are total hypocrites. It appears that Swamp and them are tied in with the Cydonia multiple id thing. They are tied in with manufactured global warming debates. They are tied in with supporting fake disinformation stooges like Jim Phelps, Jeff Wells, and Halva. Look at Halva. He is their strawman. They are all stereotypes who drove away any normal people interested in participating at chemtrail boards. I think Arcadia/Swamp/Mech/CDisNuts/BigJoe, they are all the same person, some clown. I think Lou is in on it. Instead of focussing on chemtrail awareness, he has spent much time as J Vitum and at CTC talking a lot about Jay Reynolds.

Myself, I fell for their fake us versus them crap until the Johnny Cash FU, well, until SwampAss revealed himself by his lack of fair moderating, by his insane moderating, by his support for insanity with regards to Halva, BigJoe, Tinfoil1776, Arcadia, etc.. They are all made up characters for the internet. How many albums does Noble Gas have? Is it 5, over 25, 30 years??? What kind of production is that for a real band. They seem to be a type of cointelpro, but the difference being that they were all there from the start with people like Mark Skye and Ellyn, but since their main goal was to bring in the tinfoil by association as regards to the strange fucked up trails and the fake cloud cover resulting from aircraft alone, their job was to give anyone on the fence or new to the subject reason to think this is all nutty stuff. We'll see if that plan will be able to continue unabated with Paul Moyer and now the Discovery Channel taking the issue on.

All these covert pieces of shit- I have exposed them so that any lurkers or people out there will understand what they and many others are up to as regards to the tinfoil by association network. They are Rense robots. Remember when the government came out and said beware of Rense and PrisonPlanet, that was bullshit in itself to somehow give those fake websites some type of credibility to a small portion of the overall society. They are a type of disinformation similar to the Rendon Group type astroturfing. Thankfully really smart people don't end up being spooks, so they do end up over time revealing their scams, because they just aren't that bright.

But they are still part and parcel of the overall internet strategy to mind fuck. It isn't working on me, and for any real people who come across this material, please keep in mind that this is not about myself in some flame fest with people I don't get along with for one reason or another. These are fake characters. Whether it's Lou with his cruddy spelling, or Jay Reynolds going overtime about chemtrails for no apparent reason other than to debunk, he spends all that time on a subject he thinks is a silly hoax. Does he get paid for this debunking? Why would he spend all these years doing that?

Halva is also a fake paid agent. Think Joe Schmoe. They took over 80-90% of the id's participating, you got strange looking people like Foot Soldier mucking up contrails with chemtrails. You have someone like Chem11 who admitted he hasn't really observed too much of the chemtrails, he thinks all planes are involved, which is a stupid thing to say, kind of discredits him right there. They have all been discredited over time. But that was their plan. Why else would anyone support Halva or think in terms of this tinfoil. I for a while got along with him because I was drawn in around the time the geoengineering with Crutzen was coming out to the public. But then yeah I started to think about the inconsistencies. I really wanted to figure it out. I never imagined that they were all in on some mind scam.

One could spend so much time pointing out how fake they are, from Arcadia saying Jeff Wells is so important and that he found proof that Jim Phelps spoke to congress. You have the anti-semitism from SwampAss and Halvar. You have your global warming is from the sun from a bunch of them. Look at how bad Lou spells. That is part of the scam in itself.

But I am not looking to interact with any of these fake personas. They are scum and are misdirection from getting the chemtrailing stopped.

These people are evil and consequently aren't that bright. Sure they dominate the big boards, but they cannot control the human spirit or communication taking place on the ground.

They are full of shit. They are paid fakes.

So Lou, how 'bout that Japanese mafia causing weather wars according to your buddy Scott Stevens? Hey Arcadia, where's that proof that Jim Phelps is a real person? He said he had proof.
How bout that Big Bunny saying chemtrails are coming from your friendly commercial airports, and how about that fraud Chem11 spending all these years on chemtrails but then he agrees with BigBunny that all aircraft are involved?

How bout that staged catfight between SwampAss and Chem11 over Dan Rockwell, Phelps, titanium, and skywriting???

These fuckheads try to present themselves as fair moderators, but they are the lowest scum of the earth.

These fuckheads have gone after me as a message to others out there that this is what will happen to you if you dismiss the tinfoil too loudly. But that's ok, most people are figuring out the internet for being a big disinfo pit.

These asshats are just a different brand of the orgone freedom fighters. You too Jay Reynolds. Well, they can try to keep this scripted facade going, but a few smart people out there are going to come forward and stop the spraying. And word of mouth on the ground is getting people to look up and ask wtf is wrong with the skies. They will say, there is a lot of crap on the internet, but that's there to try to cover shit up. Some lawyer or politician or journalist will break the mold and expose you asswipes. The program will not continue indefinitely despite all these internet games.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Now Wayne, Yaak-Ass can not withdraw, who would we have to laugh at if he left, I say bring on the clowns. :D :D :D

Laugh at Scott Stevens you bitch and his claims about Japanese mafias participating in weatherwars. You friggin sound like weatherman717 you lame dumbass

[CDsNuTz]

Oh my, another Internet tough guy. I'm sure everyone is cringing and cowering at your display of brutality.

More than likely, a scrawny little wimp pounding away on the computer keys.


If my comment had been directed at you, you'd have known it....So STFU!!


You do have one positive quality, though: you make everyone else look good by comparison. :D

Oh and i've seen your picture, don't make me laugh..

[CDsNuTz]

WOW, YOU ARE FLIPPIN OUT THERE SOCRATES...Do you sleep much at night??

[CDsNuTz]

Ya know first I was pissed off, now I'm frigging laughing my ass off. Thanks socrates you just made my week....Even though i busted a timing belt on my truck yesterday....

[increase 1776]

socrates,jeff,FUI,Sybil, you need to put down the crack pipe and wipe SwampGas's feces off your head and nose.Jack Shit must have been your teacher,too bad you never took notes.You know Jack Shit about Chemtrails and your research and posts show just that.

[increase 1776]

Jeff Reynolds and socrates try smokin crack.

[CDsNuTz]

They've got a channel just for people like that ,You think you could interpret this for us soc??.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBE2h8Gdmvc&eurl=

[EdSnell]

Oh and i've seen your picture, don't make me laugh..

Have you seen my firearm collection?

[Lou]

Have you seen my firearm collection?

Now who's playing the tough guy? :rolleyes:

Yaak-Ass, would you care to see my firearm(s) collection? :D

[CDsNuTz]

Have you seen my firearm collection?

Oooh I'm s-s-sh-h-a-a-k-k-i-i-n-n-g-g-g...Again, Don't make me laugh..

[increase 1776]

Originally Posted by EdSnell
Have you seen my firearm collection?

[EdSnell]

Now who's playing the tough guy? :rolleyes:

Yaak-Ass, would you care to see my firearm(s) collection? :D

Sure, Lou. What do you have?

My point was, there is no need to act tough if you're well armed. NuTz can posture all he wants, but it will do him no good. Just one well placed piece of hot lead and ...................

[halva]

Ed Snell is your intention to leave a memory of final days of posting at a level even lower than previously?

Just to prove to yourself and everyone else that you are making the right decision...

[Lou]

Sure, Lou. What do you have?

My point was, there is no need to act tough if you're well armed. NuTz can posture all he wants, but it will do him no good. Just one well placed piece of hot lead and ...................

What are you looking for Ed?

I have everything from black powder up to a several mid 1950's to late 1970's Savage, rifle models, most in 30-06, 308 Cal. plus a good many handguns, S&W, Ruger, Hi Standard, the usual fair, some ( my favorites) I would never part with but I buy, trade and sell vintage weapons all the time, I love going to the auctions, shooting, collecting, trading, it's one of my hobbies.

As far as shooting goes, lead is only as good as the person behind it.

You wrote,

"NuTz can posture all he wants, but it will do him no good. Just one well placed piece of hot lead and ..................."

That could be construed as a threat Ed, do be careful, A-What.

[halva]

Ed Snell's promises are far more interesting than his threats.

One more day.

[Lou]

Ed Snell's promises are far more interesting than his threats.

One more day.

Honestly Wayne, I could care less whether he stays or leaves, it makes no difference to me one way or the other, Ed is a very small fish in a very big pond with much bigger fish all around him, he is welcome to his opinions but I think he will end up as someone else's dinner if he gets to RIGHT WING NUT.

[halva]

I realise that this is your position (or one of your positions) and I don't agree with it. .

If you don't wish to encourage Ed Snell when he makes good decisions and good promises, i.e. neutralize an opponent, what exactly are your objectives?

The other side do not behave like this. They are pleased when they get us to go away.

Also, only a few days ago, you posted this:



Originally Posted by halva
The best decision you made in your life was to get away from the Internet.

Originally Posted by EdSnell
You are actually correct for once, Wayne.


Lou:

Well then Ed, why the HELL are you still here making a complete ASS out of yourself then ?

Maybe you could join your mentor 'Reynolds' working on a garbage barge in the Gulf, at least you would be doing something useful for a change.

[Lou]

I realise that this is your position (or one of your positions) and I don't agree with it. .

If you don't wish to encourage Ed Snell when he makes good decisions and good promises, i.e. neutralize an opponent, what exactly are your objectives?

The other side do not behave like this. They are pleased when they get us to go away.

Also, only a few days ago, you posted this:

Wayne,

Obviously you do not understand how we Americans deal with each other and maybe it's best that you don't.

I'm a big boy, Ed's a big boy, we may rag on and take shots at each other but we each respect the others right to do that, If I chose not to listen to him it's easy enough to just ignore him and visa versa, unlike that SOB Lord Reynolds I do not find Ed Snell all that offensive, irritating for sure but he does not have that acid narcissistic thing going on that Lord Reynolds has, honest debate can be had with him unlike the Onion Farmer / Superman.

If Ed Snell were to remain here, would the world around you change radically from what it is now?

No, I did not think so,..........chill out Wayne. :rolleyes:

[EdSnell]

What are you looking for Ed?

I have everything from black powder up to a several mid 1950's to late 1970's Savage, rifle models, most in 30-06, 308 Cal. plus a good many handguns, S&W, Ruger, Hi Standard, the usual fair, some ( my favorites) I would never part with but I buy, trade and sell vintage weapons all the time, I love going to the auctions, shooting, collecting, trading, it's one of my hobbies.

As far as shooting goes, lead is only as good as the person behind it.

You wrote,

"NuTz can posture all he wants, but it will do him no good. Just one well placed piece of hot lead and ..................."

That could be construed as a threat Ed, do be careful, A-What.

My opinion of you just skyrocketed Lou. Actually, I never had an opinion about you, because up until a moment ago I knew nothing about you.

It is impossible to threaten an Internet screen name, but it's always fun trying.:)

[EdSnell]

Ed Snell's promises are far more interesting than his threats.

One more day.No, Wayne, more like 6 hours. Are you getting the champagne properly chilled?:)

[Lou]

My opinion of you just skyrocketed Lou. Actually, I never had an opinion about you, because up until a moment ago I knew nothing about you.

It is impossible to threaten an Internet screen name, but it's always fun trying.:)

Yes Ed,... perhaps we are not so much different from each other as people give us credit for, sure, we have different opinions on issues but I would not say that we are mortal enemies because of it.

I'm not some skinny little sawed off computer geek that lives at the monitor, I like my 4x4, my firearms, my canoe, my collection of knives, etc...and more I live to be out in the woods, or at least I use to, winter keeps me inside now due to a back injury and metal plates and bolts but when spring arrives I'll be out and about big time.

I hope that you enjoy you're new home, it sounds great and I really mean that.

Stay loose,.........Lou. :D

[EdSnell]

Yes Ed,... perhaps we are not so much different from each other as people give us credit for, sure, we have different opinions on issues but I would not say that we are mortal enemies because of it.

I'm not some skinny little sawed off computer geek that lives at the monitor, I like my 4x4, my firearms, my canoe, my collection of knives, etc...and more I live to be out in the woods, or at least I use to, winter keeps me inside now due to a back injury and metal plates and bolts but when spring arrives I'll be out and about big time.

I hope that you enjoy you're new home, it sounds great and I really mean that.

Stay loose,.........Lou. :D

Thank you, Lou. I'm an outdoorsman myself. I hope your back doesn't slow you down or prevent you from enjoying life.


**********************8

4 hours, Wayne!

[CDsNuTz]

Honestly Wayne, I could care less whether he stays or leaves, it makes no difference to me one way or the other, Ed is a very small fish in a very big pond with much bigger fish all around him, he is welcome to his opinions but I think he will end up as someone else's dinner if he gets to RIGHT WING NUT.

Do I honestly give the impression I'm a RIGHT WING NUT?? Put aside my opinion on "Man Made" Global Warming....

[Hunter Rose]

The tail of this thread is a brilliant piece of work.

:cool:

[Jeff Reynolds]

Another of my own observations was about kola, I just keep wondering why socrates and kola were such good buds....After going back over kola' posts it seems to me that kola is the tinfoil socrates was always calling out. It doesn't take much to figure it out kola bought and built a chembuster, kola also believes all planes make chemstrails, he said he'd be looking for them on his trip to Vermont and also asking the pilot about it after the flight.He thinks they're spraying only his little eastern CO. town of 2500....

You sound like you are a fake character just like TinFoil1776 and BigJoe who are probably SwampAss or some other numbnut paid to post disinformationalist. Me and Kola were not buds. We were starting to get along better, especially after he backed me up after I was trolled at Gastronamus Cafe. I am well aware of some of the crazy stuff Kola has written. In fact, this paid troll I have quoted here above even admitted that yes I have debunked Kola plenty in the past. This fake added nothing to Gastro but the fake wingnut crap that there is no man-made global warming. These fakes are impossible to interact with due to their excessive lying and selective amnesia. Anyone who is familiar with Halvar has seen the insane structure of his words and interactions. Now, this numbnut above has lied that Kola believes that all aircraft are involved.

Carnicom's (http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessageRange?topicID=817 9.topic&start=21&stop=40)

posted by Kola:


I have been watching and studying chemtrails for the last 3 years. Here in Colorado the spray planes are RARELY red. Some I view with binoculars almost look transparent, very hard to describe but true....

This doesn't sound like someone who believes that all aircraft are involved. He apparently does not see any chemtrails coming from commercial flights.

Maybe this quote from a different poster from the preceding page of the linked thread is representative of how this and the other disinfo cretins are trying to confuse people as regards to chemtrails and contrails being the same thing.

posted by workersworld


It would be impossibly for airlines not to be part of spraying everyone.

But it makes sense that these two fake trolls keep showing up in tandem. Tinfoil1776 is a moderator at the fake tinfoil forum Chemtrail Central. On one thread he called me a debunker, while he supported a global warming debunker named Pak. Basically, these people are full of shit. Worse than that, they are paid to post. I could see one to five people taking care of all the fake posts. When I was at Gastro I was providing as much as any chemtrail poster on the internet. But unlike these clowns along with the fakes Foot Soldier, Big Bunny, Chem11, et al, I am a real person, open-minded in fact, too much sometimes because then it takes me a while to see if people are toying with me. These are paid fakes.

On a side note, I did get to see the Discovery Channel show and will post on it when time permits. The one thing I'll say now that is striking is that everything about that show organically represents that the major psy-op isn't about the tinfoil, althought the tinfoil has been the major focal point so far. Over the last few years their psy-op has morphed into being precisely this mixing of chemtrails with contrails. This Foot Soldier, Big Bunny, and Chem11 are simply awful people, disgusting fascist liars cloaked in a facade of being progressives.

Do not fall for the copy and paste psy-op that chemtrails are contrails.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Hey Ed Snell, I believe that you have been turned into a patsie by SwampAss. Yes, I do believe that you are an annoying debunker who has made troll-like posts in the past. While I do not trust you, while a part of me wonders if you too are not in fact some type of made up persona in this chemtrail fake schemeta, there is a great chance in my mind that you have been a patsie for fake "believers" whose main job is to spread confusion. This is why SwampAss loves Halvar and supports him in a major way.

The reason bottom line I do not trust you Ed is because you used to be a chemmie a long time ago, and this in my mind is the psy-op going on, that it is ok to wonder wtf is wrong with the skies, but that there are logical explanations for everything, that all one need to do is ask Patrick Minnis or Jay Reynolds for the explanation. But that is why I think you might be part of the scam.

Plus, you have attacked Will Thomas in the past, and he comes across as one of the most legitemate "believers" that there are.

So Ed, if you are just an obnoxious wingnut, I apologize for all these months calling you a fake. Obviously now SwampAss and Halvar and these other one-dimensional trolls are the true fakes. But then again, if you are part of it, then go Cheney yourself. I guess this has been my way of wishing you well if indeed you are off the forum. I personally am gonna try to eventually find another forum home. And it's got nothing to do with being "Sybil". They did to me what they did to you, calling us multiple id posters. I have always been upfront about who I was, but these scumbags speak so many lies that they do appear to be paid fakes. Anyone who really cares about the truth knows that it doesn't matter who says what as long as there are credible proofs and whatnot. I can see how you were set up by this crowd because it happened to me too. So if you are on the up and up for a Richard Nixon type, if that's possible, I apologize for any rudeness on my part based on inside info or disinfo that Swamp supplied me about yourself.

[halva]

Wayne,

Obviously you do not understand how we Americans deal with each other and maybe it's best that you don't.

I'm a big boy, Ed's a big boy, we may rag on and take shots at each other but we each respect the others right to do that, If I chose not to listen to him it's easy enough to just ignore him and visa versa, unlike that SOB Lord Reynolds I do not find Ed Snell all that offensive, irritating for sure but he does not have that acid narcissistic thing going on that Lord Reynolds has, honest debate can be had with him unlike the Onion Farmer / Superman.

If Ed Snell were to remain here, would the world around you change radically from what it is now?

No, I did not think so,..........chill out Wayne. :rolleyes:

I am glad to see this acknowledgement that what we are talking about is a national characteristic. If I had made the point it would have been called anti-Americanism.

I have no problems at all with the idea that you Americans should be one side and the rest of us on the other, as long as it is YOU who is saying it and not me. I don't want to say it, because I welcome all Americans who want to be on my side.

What I don't want is a perpetuation of the present system for destroying the human race and this planet as a an environment that can support humans.

That is based on the opposite proposition. That it is not "we Americans" on one side and everyone else on the other. Thie opposite proposition is that the only viewpoints that are allowed to exist are those willing to line up behind one of two American political factions. It makes no difference to me whether these factions are called Republicans and Democrats or debunkers and "chemmies". The game is the same.

Anything outside these viewpoints is a candidate for "enemy" status (and in fact "enemies" can be selected even from within the two viewpoints, at random, just to make sure that nobody starts feeling that they understand the rules and can rely on them being adhered to).

The world has had enough of this system.

Perhaps Ed Snell has really had enough of it too, and is - to be optimistic - less determined to stay here than than you are determined that he should if possible stay here.

You say that he is a litte fish in a big pond and it makes no difference to the world at large whether he stays or goes. The point is that he has been OUR opponent. Fighting at the level that WE are at. So it has been and is OUR task to defeat him.

Lou, I want the debunkers to HAVE TO GO TO YOU FOR PROTECTION. I don't want the TWO SIDES that are in "debate" to be you and me on one side vs the Ed Snells on the other. I want it to be you on one side and me on the other.

If we are to have someone to laugh at, let it not be Ed Snell.(The laughter is hollow anyway, for he still represents an undefeated enemy ).

If we have to have someone here to laugh at, let it be Socrates/Jeff Reynolds, who in his own useless way is "one of us" ("us" being the players in the new game that follows the departure of the debunkers, which is also the game we want to see the world playing).

[halva]

This is (hopefully) my goodbye message to Ed Snell:

Waiting for the Barbarians

What are we waiting for, assembled in the forum?

The barbarians are to arrive today.

Why such inaction in the Senate?
Why do the Senators sit and pass no laws?

Because the barbarians are to arrive today.
What laws can the Senators pass any more?
When the barbarians come they will make the laws.

Why did our emperor wake up so early,
and sits at the greatest gate of the city,
on the throne, solemn, wearing the crown?

Because the barbarians are to arrive today.
And the emperor waits to receive
their chief. Indeed he has prepared
to give him a scroll. Therein he inscribed
many titles and names of honor.

Why have our two consuls and the praetors come out
today in their red, embroidered togas;
why do they wear amethyst-studded bracelets,
and rings with brilliant, glittering emeralds;
why are they carrying costly canes today,
wonderfully carved with silver and gold?

Because the barbarians are to arrive today,
and such things dazzle the barbarians.

Why don't the worthy orators come as always
to make their speeches, to have their say?

Because the barbarians are to arrive today;
and they get bored with eloquence and orations.

Why all of a sudden this unrest
and confusion. (How solemn the faces have become).
Why are the streets and squares clearing quickly,
and all return to their homes, so deep in thought?

Because night is here but the barbarians have not come.
And some people arrived from the borders,
and said that there are no longer any barbarians.

And now what shall become of us without any barbarians?
Those people were some kind of solution.

Constantine P. Cavafy (1904)

[CDsNuTz]

You sound like you are a fake character just like TinFoil1776 and BigJoe who are probably SwampAss or some other numbnut paid to post disinformationalist. Me and Kola were not buds. We were starting to get along better, especially after he backed me up after I was trolled at Gastronamus Cafe. I am well aware of some of the crazy stuff Kola has written. In fact, this paid troll I have quoted here above even admitted that yes I have debunked Kola plenty in the past. This fake added nothing to Gastro but the fake wingnut crap that there is no man-made global warming. These fakes are impossible to interact with due to their excessive lying and selective amnesia. Anyone who is familiar with Halvar has seen the insane structure of his words and interactions. Now, this numbnut above has lied that Kola believes that all aircraft are involved.

Carnicom's (http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessageRange?topicID=817 9.topic&start=21&stop=40)

posted by Kola:



This doesn't sound like someone who believes that all aircraft are involved. He apparently does not see any chemtrails coming from commercial flights..


You Idiot!! Who's a liar?? Who's a fake???

You Idiot socrates...Proving you wrong again...


Sorry to drag you down this path Kola was simply trying make a point earlier about where socrates really stands. Now he's brought it back up...

All from the key board of kola....

Reply #639
http://gastronamus.proboards27.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=generalobservations&thread=1074738154&page=22

Reply # 619
http://gastronamus.proboards27.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=generalobservations&thread=1074738154&page=21

Chembuster: Fine he realized it didn't work, but he spent a chunk of change to figure that out... reply #110

http://gastronamus.proboards27.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=generalobservations&thread=1163909360&page=4


Spraying only my town Reply #405

http://gastronamus.proboards27.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=generalobservations&thread=1074738154&page=14

[Lou]

I am glad to see this acknowledgement that what we are talking about is a national characteristic. If I had made the point it would have been called anti-Americanism.

I have no problems at all with the idea that you Americans should be one side and the rest of us on the other, as long as it is YOU who is saying it and not me. I don't want to say it, because I welcome all Americans who want to be on my side.

What I don't want is a perpetuation of the present system for destroying the human race and this planet as a an environment that can support humans.

That is based on the opposite proposition. That it is not "we Americans" on one side and everyone else on the other. Thie opposite proposition is that the only viewpoints that are allowed to exist are those willing to line up behind one of two American political factions. It makes no difference to me whether these factions are called Republicans and Democrats or debunkers and "chemmies". The game is the same.

Anything outside these viewpoints is a candidate for "enemy" status (and in fact "enemies" can be selected even from within the two viewpoints, at random, just to make sure that nobody starts feeling that they understand the rules and can rely on them being adhered to).

The world has had enough of this system.

Perhaps Ed Snell has really had enough of it too, which is - to be optimistic - less determined to stay here than than you are determined that he should if possible stay here.

You say that he is a litte fish in a big pond and it makes no difference to the world at large whether he stays or goes. The point is that he has been OUR opponent. Fighting at the level that WE are at. So it has been and is OUR task to defeat him.

Lou, I want the debunkers to HAVE TO GO TO YOU FOR PROTECTION. I don't want the TWO SIDES that are in "debate" to be you and me on one side vs the Ed Snells on the other. I want it to be you on one side and me on the other.

If we are to have someone to laugh at, let it not be Ed Snell.(The laughter is hollow anyway, for he still represents an undefeated enemy ).

If we have to have someone here to laugh at, let it be Socrates/Jeff Reynolds, who in his own useless way is "one of us" ("us" being the players in the new game that follows the departure of the debunkers, which is also the game we want to see the world playing).

Wayne,

If I may simplify this issue of them verses us as I see it.

Ed Snell is not my enemy, I see him as someone who is in denial with regard to the CT and Geo-Engineering issues because he is locked within the boundaries of a fairytale paradigm where people are conditioned to accept the manufactured truth and not except anything that does not conform to that narrow minded, linear way of thinking.

It really isn't his fault as he is just a product of his environment and probably not even aware that his thinking on the issue might be wrong and even if he did suspect that he was wrong, I doubt that his ridged mindset and fragile ego would allow him to overcome the false reality which he relies on and needs in order to maintain what he perceives as the real world.

Not to say that he is inherently bad, that is not the point here, he is probably no more good or bad than any of us, he just sees things differently and I am Ok with that.

Do you understand my line of thought here, There is no 'me' against 'him', he is not my enemy, he is just someone who thinks differently than you and I do about certain things and we will never change that_so, moving on now Wayne.

It's late, I'm going to bed, later.

[Jeff Reynolds]

You Idiot!! Who's a liar?? Who's a fake???

You Idiot socrates...Proving you wrong again...


Sorry to drag you down this path Kola was simply trying make a point earlier about where socrates really stands. Now he's brought it back up...

All from the key board of kola....

Reply #639
http://gastronamus.proboards27.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=generalobservations&thread=1074738154&page=22

Reply # 619
http://gastronamus.proboards27.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=generalobservations&thread=1074738154&page=21

Chembuster: Fine he realized it didn't work, but he spent a chunk of change to figure that out... reply #110

http://gastronamus.proboards27.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=generalobservations&thread=1163909360&page=4


Spraying only my town Reply #405

http://gastronamus.proboards27.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=generalobservations&thread=1074738154&page=14

Hey shit for brains, I am banned from Gastro, so I can't even see what the fuck you are linking to. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if you disinfo shits weren't messing around with the posts. It's funny how you had next to nothing to offer at Gastro, now all of a sudden you are SwampAss's proxy. Maybe you are the same person. So write whatever you want. The truth is more important than any ego id, no matter who it is. You are a disinfo punk, consequently you will be going to hell.

I started two threads at Gastro on Kola questioning some of the crap he has posted. Swamp pmed me to lay off, that he was Native American, that that was why he believes in "sylphs". You can flame me all you want you pussy, but I have a feeling that most people would agree with me as regards to yourselves being full of shit fakes. You can come up with a million fake personas. It no longer matters. Because now it is out in the open that the chemtrail forums are full of fake posters.

Thanks in a way for coming after me you shitheads. In the long run people will be able to get beyond you stupid one-dimensional rense robots and see that there is a covert program in place spraying the skies. They'll see your dumbass shit, Chem11's and Foot Soldier's, Arcadia's and they'll go aahh, they're trying to astroturf that chemtrails are contrails just like Jay Reynolds.

You Moronic Disinfo Bitch!!!!!

[CDsNuTz]

You're just grasping at straws now.....

[Jeff Reynolds]

You're just grasping at straws now.....

whatever you say you tinfoil rense robot pussy bitch. You're a one-dimensional stupid piece of shit. Deep down you know you are going to hell.

[CDsNuTz]

whatever you say you tinfoil rense robot pussy bitch. You're a one-dimensional stupid piece of shit. Deep down you know you are going to hell.




Limbo maybe, but not hell. Hell's a special place for people like you...

[halva]

Are there other people like him?

[CDsNuTz]

Are there other people like him?

Sad to say there is a growing number..

[halva]

Do you think they will start coming here?

[Lou]

Do you think they will start coming here?

Ha, Ha,

Wayne, is Lord Reynolds looking good to you these days ? :confused:

[halva]

Would you like him back here Lou??

Ed Snell may not have left if he were still here. (I am not sure about this, of course.)

How about just acting as if the debunkers are not part of this forum any more, and adjusting to the presence of Jeff Reynolds, who probably won't feel able to continue his previous behaviour after the slap in the face he has just taken.

[Lou]

Would you like him back here Lou??

Ed Snell may not have left if he were still here. (I am not sure about this, of course.)

How about just acting as if the debunkers are not part of this forum any more, and adjusting to the presence of Jeff Reynolds, who probably won't feel able to continue his previous behaviour after the slap in the face he has just taken.

Well, to tell the truth Wayne, Lord Reynolds for all of his nasty debunking, he is far more intelligent than Jeffy Boy is, have no doubt that Lord Reynolds will return, obviously he had to take a job on some tug, hauling garbage in the Gulf to pay his bills, I guess growing onions these days just isn't paying. :D

As far as the new JR junior goes, I have him ignore listed as he should be so whatever he is ranting about is pointless, I really don't care what he is saying, whatever it is it's pure crap and not worth my time.

Wasting time on him when there are serious CT issues at hand would border on the childish, I can't be bothered with his paranoid fantasies. :rolleyes:

[halva]

Well, to tell the truth Wayne, Lord Reynolds for all of his nasty debunking, he is far more intelligent than Jeffy Boy is, have no doubt that Lord Reynolds will return, obviously he had to take a job on some tug, hauling garbage in the Gulf to pay his bills, I guess growing onions these days just isn't paying. :D


I always like to believe the best of people so my hope is that he will not come here again.

I don't like being given so much confirmation all the time that the United States, like Nazi Germany, is going to have to be "liberated from without". I like to believe that the rest of the world is going to be able to compensate for the vacuum that Americans have in their heads, but maybe it is not.

[halva]

Face it, Lou. It's pretty bad when you and I are forced to be on the same side.

We want a situation where we can be on opposite sides.

[halva]

Socrates/Jeff Reynolds, do you have any thoughts on this difference of opinion between myself and Lou?

[Lou]

Face it, Lou. It's pretty bad when you and I are forced to be on the same side.

We want a situation where we can be on opposite sides.

S-hhhhhhhhhhh !

Don't tell anyone. :D :D :D

[halva]

It doesn't look as if Socrates/Jeff Reynolds has anything to say about all this. Which side can he call names?

[Lou]

It doesn't look as if Socrates/Jeff Reynolds has anything to say about all this. Which side can he call names?

Wayne,

Why bother?

Jeff Reynolds / Socrates has chosen to become an attack dog, he did this and he can blame no one but himself for it.

He now is known far and wide as the attack dog and trouble maker that does not discriminate, he attacks everyone, Chemtrail believers and debunker alike, he has set himself on a path that will keep him distant and alone because no one wants to listen to his senseless negative rantings constantly, he is like the fat guy at the crowded bar that has BO, no one wants to be around him and for good reason.

Maybe he will find a good home at a sports blog or board because he sure as HELL has worn out his welcome at Chemtrail forums ranting about everyone being fakes and strawmen, offering nothing positive in return.

By his actions Jeff Reynolds / Socrates has sealed his own fate, he will just be known as another A-Hole that passed through on his way to obscurity and oblivion.

[halva]

If Jay Reynolds is able to change his ways, then Socrates/Jeff Reynolds is too.

[halva]

Of course, saying that, I have no unshakeable evidence that either of them has.

[Lou]

If Jay Reynolds is able to change his ways, then Socrates/Jeff Reynolds is too.

Just because a chameleon can change it's color to better camouflage itself does not mean that it also changes it's predatory intent !

[halva]

Yes, well I'm giving up talking about either of them right now. There is so much else going on at this moment.

[halva]

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/research/2007-02-22-contrails_x.htm?

[Lou]

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/research/2007-02-22-contrails_x.htm?

A few points on Patrick Minnis.

Note: ISI Assigned Category: Geosciences???( Changing the weather / Climate?)

Note: CSU at Fort Carson, Colorado, studied Atmospheric Science, major ties to the U.S.A.F. Academy in Colorado, Springs a few miles away that thaught "Chemtrail" courses dating back to the early1990's ??? ( http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/spring-05.html )

Note: LTV-Vought Corp, ties to every major manufacture with government contracts for weapons and aircraft in the U.S.???

Note: 1978 to 1981, only three years to become the senior research scientist at NASA Langley Research Center. ??? ( Caught the fast track big time or he is one hell of a 'yes' man. )

Note: Research interest, Satellite Remote Sensing of the Atmosphere, Clouds, and the Surface
Atmospheric Radiation, Climate ??? ( Atmospheric Radiation / Forced Radiation a component of the CT issue? )

Patrick Minnis, what does this company man / Atmospheric Scientist really do for the government?

Is he just one of NASA's top Atmospheric scientist or is he one of the Governments chief scientific advisors involved in this Chemtrail Spraying operation?

One thing that Mr. Minnis does for sure is DEBUNK anything relating to Chemtrail Spraying, it is obvious that if he did not, he would not be the chief Atmospheric scientist at NASA's Langley Research Center for very long.

There is much to question and should be questioned about Mr. Minnis, what he says regarding Chemtrails and his career that has been so close to classified military projects over the years.

About Patrick Minis:

http://hcr3.isiknowledge.com/author.cgi?&link1=Browse&link2=Results&id=4983

This guy reminds me of a sleezy used car salesman.

[halva]

If Footsoldier wants her expertise to be of use at this forum, and doesn't want to argue with me about the problematics of conflating aerosol spraying with "inadvertent" aircraft emissions, these are the kinds of discussions where she could be usefully showing what she knows and we don't.

[halva]

A video debate between Rosalind Peterson and Patrick Minnis, under OUR control, or the control of someone trustworthy, and not under the control of the corporate media would be as useful as the debate between Rosalind and Crutzen that I still have not given up trying to organize.

Should deliberate pollution of the skies be legalized or banned. That is the question that has to be asked. Forget about discussing whether or not "chemtrails" exist, as you will never get a character like Minnis to stop hiding behind his index finger on that.

Break the reflexes that allow Minnis to continue his disingenuous little game forever.

Public debate on climate change is consumed with the phony dogfight about the extent to which "man" is "to blame". Get the message out that this is a ridiculous diversion: the point is should deliberate pollution of the skies be legalized or banned.

To those who want to say that spraying of particulates or other poisonous substances "may" one day be necessary if it turns out that the climate change problem is as bad as some say, corner them and do not let them evade the question: if it is happening now should it be legalized or banned???

Do not accept the answer that there is no evidence that it is happening now. That does not answer the question.

This is my way of solving the problem that Footsoldier has tried to solve by conflating aerosol spraying from aircraft with aircraft emissions in general.

[halva]

Minnis is not a participant in the populist debate over the extent to which "man" is responsible for climate change. He is the equivalent of the "liberals" of the Cold War era who deplored the nuclear arms race while dismissing the "hoax" of "peace-loving Soviet diplomacy".

The element of progress since that time is that during the Cold War the "hoaxers" were the Soviets. Since those particular "hoaxers" have been disposed of, it is now the turn of ordinary Americans to be the "hoaxers".

[Lou]

If Footsoldier wants her expertise to be of use at this forum, and doesn't want to argue with me about the problematics of conflating aerosol spraying with "inadvertent" aircraft emissions, these are the kinds of discussions where she could be usefully showing what she knows and we don't.

FS has stated her position on not entering into debate with regard to Chemtrail Spraying and I respect her decision in doing that as she has plainly stated that she is seeking other means of approaching the issue.

Why do you insist on making demands on her when she is not interested in joining in on this particular subject?

Why not concentrate on bringing in those people who are willing to work on the pro Chemtrail side of the issue into the conversation rather than trying so hard to bring in those who are so reluctant to do so?

I know that you have had a longstanding relationship with FS but she has stated her position with regard to Chemtrails now more than a few times, why can't you let the subject go with her and move on?

( Just curious. )

[halva]

Megasprayer's comment:

Minnis

The name itself conjures all kinds of horrid memories of petty deception and clumsy manipulations. No need to bring up the past when the present is so much more elegant, though.

Quote:

What we're able to do now is inadvertent.- Patrick Minnis

If Mr. Minnis has any sense of humor or irony at all, those are the words he will have etched on his gravestone. Pure poetry. And I detect an almost Buddhist philosophy in it's structure, as if the poet wishes the reader to ask himself deeply profound questions of himself and of the universe. Such as...

Who, aside from Brother Minnis himself, is he including in this vast communal force he describes as 'We'?

And what is it that this great We is 'able to do'? And why does the poet boast of it so? Human frailty? Delusions of grandeur? His own artistic pain?

He ends his masterpiece so deftly, and with such raw force. The Delivery of the Message, for all of mankind. For Whatever it is that We are Able to do... it is Inadvertent.

[halva]

FS has stated her position on not entering into debate with regard to Chemtrail Spraying and I respect her decision in doing that as she has plainly stated that she is seeking other means of approaching the issue.

Why do you insist on making demands on her when she is not interested in joining in on this particular subject?

Why not concentrate on bringing in those people who are willing to work on the pro Chemtrail side of the issue into the conversation rather than trying so hard to bring in those who are so reluctant to do so?

I know that you have had a longstanding relationship with FS but she has stated her position with regard to Chemtrails now more than a few times, why can't you let the subject go with her and move on?

( Just curious. )

Lou I am pleased at the progress we have made in removing the antagonism from our discussions. Look back at some of your postings at Gastronamus on the subject of my presence at the Debate Both Sides forum and see how much you want now to stand by what, in tandem with Socrates, you were saying to me then.

Why, when with your information on Minnis you are moving us in a promising new direction, do you have to spoil it by starting another fight for no reason?

Read my today's postings more attentively and get the point that I am asking Footsoldier if she wants to come into the discussion about Minnis, not the discussion about chemtrails versus aircraft emissions.

There was and is really no need for you to act as Footsoldier's spokesperson. If she wants to join in the discussion over Minnis, or any other subject, she will. If she doesn't, she won't.

There is nothing to stop you inviting anyone you want to post here.

[Lou]

A video debate between Rosalind Peterson and Patrick Minnis, under OUR control, or the control of someone trustworthy, and not under the control of the corporate media would be as useful as the debate between Rosalind and Crutzen that I still have not given up trying to organize.

Should deliberate pollution of the skies be legalized or banned. That is the question that has to be asked. Forget about discussing whether or not "chemtrails" exist, as you will never get a character like Minnis to stop hiding behind his index finger on that.

Break the reflexes that allow Minnis to continue his disingenuous little game forever.

Public debate on climate change is consumed with the phony dogfight about the extent to which "man" is "to blame". Get the message out that this is a ridiculous diversion: the point is should deliberate pollution of the skies be legalized or banned.

To those who want to say that spraying of particulates or other poisonous substances "may" one day be necessary if it turns out that the climate change problem is as bad as some say, corner them and do not let them evade the question: if it is happening now should it be legalized or banned???

Do not accept the answer that there is no evidence that it is happening now. That does not answer the question.

This is my way of solving the problem that Footsoldier has tried to solve by conflating aerosol spraying from aircraft with aircraft emissions in general.

I don't think that you will find anyone working within the confines of Government dependant scientific research that will agree that deliberate pollution of the skies must be either legalized or banned because neither option could or would be feasible because of the negative economy factor that would be forced upon society as a whole if either legalization or banning were to be implemented on a worldwide scale.

Legalization or banning is in my opinion a fairytale scenario that rates right up there with pumping tons of sulfur into the stratosphere via the use of balloons or artillery shells and the notion that 'more pollution is somehow good' when in fact more pollution, CO2 and greenhouse gasses is the last thing that we need to be filling the atmosphere with.

[halva]

But if something is happening it is a basic principle of government under the rule of law that it should be legal. If it is bad it should be made illegal.

[halva]

The point is that public debate on climate change IS going on now. But it is a bullshit red-herring debate over whether "man" is responsible for climate change.. How do we move away from that stupid, useless in fact actively harmful public "debate" to what the public debate SHOULD be, i.e. whether deliberate pollution should be legal or illegal?

You think that it is obvious that the spraying is wrong, so what need is there for a debate. A lot of climate change debunkers agree with you that the spraying, if it were happening, would be wrong.

Where does that get us? All they are doing by what they say is to perpetuate the wrong debate.
You think it is your task to persuade them, and everyone else, that the spraying is actually occurring. I am not stopping you from doing that, if you can.

But you did not succeed in doing it with Reynolds, and you did not succeed in preventing him from impeding rational discussion here. How does one prevent Minnis from impeding rational discussion in society at large?

1) By convincing Minnis that spraying is occurring, or persuading the public not to listen to Minnis when he says that it is not?

or

2) By convincing the public that the climate change debate that should be going on is not whether "man" is or is not responsible for climate change but whether deliberate pollution to mitigate the symptoms of climate change should be legalized or stopped.

I am not going to stop you trying to do the former if y ou think that is what has to be done. Can you return the favour and desist from trying to stop me from doing the latter if I, as I do, think it is what has to be done?

[halva]

You think that it is obvious that the spraying is wrong, so what need is there for a debate. A lot of climate change debunkers agree with you that the spraying, if it were happening, would be wrong.


The climate change arch-debunker Tim Ball, for example, said that Crtuzen should have his Nobel Prize taken away from him.

He became very angry with me when I led the discussion in a direction that began to show up his fundamental dishonesty.

I didn't do it by proving to him that aerosol spraying, whatever he himself says or purports to believe, is already occurring.

I showed up his dishonesty by inviting him to participate in a hoped-for debate between Crutzen and Rosalind Peterson, organized by ourselves, not by the corporate media, where he would be given the opportunity to tell Crutzen to his face that he should have his Nobel Prize taken away,

It is the media, the "middlemen" who are distorting communication and making it possible for the Tim Balls and the Minnises to continue their little games at the expense of the gormless masses.

This was the element of rationality in Jim Phelps' ravings about "the Jews", which cannot be tolerated in the form he advances them because they constitute incitement to racial hatred.

[halva]

The fact that Minnis has also concluded that cirrus clouds generated by aircraft contrails have a net warming effect also make it necessary that someone should ask him why geoengineers recommend the use of of aircraft contrails to mitigate global warming and why they are so impressed by the sudden rise in temperatures registered over the US in the wake of 9/11 when aircraft stopped flying. Would anyone like to organize a debate between Minnis and David Travis?

[Lou]

The point is that public debate on climate change IS going on now. But it is a bullshit red-herring debate over whether "man" is responsible for climate change.. How do we move away from that stupid, useless in fact actively harmful public "debate" to what the public debate SHOULD be, i.e. whether deliberate pollution should be legal or illegal?

You think that it is obvious that the spraying is wrong, so what need is there for a debate. A lot of climate change debunkers agree with you that the spraying, if it were happening, would be wrong.

Where does that get us? All they are doing by what they say is to perpetuate the wrong debate.
You think it is your task to persuade them, and everyone else, that the spraying is actually occurring. I am not stopping you from doing that, if you can.

But you did not succeed in doing it with Reynolds, and you did not succeed in preventing him from impeding rational discussion here. How does one prevent Minnis from impeding rational discussion in society at large?

1) By convincing Minnis that spraying is occurring, or persuading the public not to listen to Minnis when he says that it is not?

or

2) By convincing the public that the climate change debate that should be going on is not whether "man" is or is not responsible for climate change but whether deliberate pollution to mitigate the symptoms of climate change should be legalized or stopped.

I am not going to stop you trying to do the former if y ou think that is what has to be done. Can you return the favour and desist from trying to stop me from doing the latter if I, as I do, think it is what has to be done?

The short answer Wayne, I simply wish to see enough people band together and make enough noise, present enough evidence so that our politicians are forced to address this 'Chemtrail' issue in the form of Congressional public herrings / here in the U.S..

That's my position and goal because everything else is meaningless if we can not bring enough attention to the issue to force our politicians to act on it, if this can not be done, then we have no recourse on the issue at all as I see it and we might as well shut up about it and let the spraying continue without protest.

You speak of legal Vs. illegal as though it is the people that are responsible for amending or creating law when in fact it is in most countries the body politic, not the people that make or change laws of governance.

I have thought for some time now that this 'spraying' within the U.S. is being conducted under the protection of the National Security Act and overseen by the (NSC) National Security Council which in turn is answerable only to the President, not congress, any action(s) taken by the NSC with regard to projects or operations are exempt from Congressional oversight and neither Congressman or Senators may openly , if they have knowledge, discuss any projects or operations that fall under the heading of National Security. ( Are you getting the big picture here?)

Even if a Congress person or Senator knows about "Chemtrails" they are bound by law not to discuss it publicly under the rule of Domestic National Security.

We the people then must force our politicians into disclosing that "Yes" there is a spraying program but it is classified under National Security, once they admit to that, then we can move forward with public pressure to get the President (and only the President) to declassify the operation or project fully or in part so it may then be addressed openly in Congressional herrings.

So, you see, the subject is far from legal Vs. illegal simply because the system is so convoluted, insulating information even from those who make our laws.

There is no easy button that one can simply push and get answers to this spraying issue, it is a very hard issue to crack but persistence is the best course of action on our part, sooner or later the truth will come out in spite of National Security or the Reynolds and Minnis's of the world.

[Lou]

Lou I am pleased at the progress we have made in removing the antagonism from our discussions. Look back at some of your postings at Gastronamus on the subject of my presence at the Debate Both Sides forum and see how much you want now to stand by what, in tandem with Socrates, you were saying to me then.

Why, when with your information on Minnis you are moving us in a promising new direction, do you have to spoil it by starting another fight for no reason?

Read my today's postings more attentively and get the point that I am asking Footsoldier if she wants to come into the discussion about Minnis, not the discussion about chemtrails versus aircraft emissions.

There was and is really no need for you to act as Footsoldier's spokesperson. If she wants to join in the discussion over Minnis, or any other subject, she will. If she doesn't, she won't.

There is nothing to stop you inviting anyone you want to post here.

I just wanted to know why it is that you keep going at FS, trying to entice her into the conversation when it's obvious that she does not want to take part in it_that's all.

I' not trying to start a fight here, not trying to be FS's spokesperson at all, I think that you're over reacting to a simple question.:confused:

[halva]

The short answer Wayne, I simply wish to see enough people band together and make enough noise, present enough evidence so that our politicians are forced to address this 'Chemtrail' issue in the form of Congressional public herrings / here in the U.S..


Well, I have collaborators here in Greece who have more or less the same ideas, but I don't see that they are making much progress. The parliamentarian Xirotiri who brought up in the Greek parliament the issue of chemtrail spraying over the city of Larissa is more or less inaccessible to people who want to talk to her about this. Our webmaster thinks she raised the question in parliament just so that it would look good on her curriculum vitae. Perhaps a reference to it could be made just before the next elections.

Of course one thing that is an advantage to us here in the European Union is that the European integration process is incomplete. Grass roots participation is encouraged, in a kind of way, to the extent that the political class (or an element in the political class) judges that it can be useful for the European integration process.



That's my position and goal because everything else is meaningless if we can not bring enough attention to the issue to force our politicians to act on it, if this can not be done, then we have no recourse on the issue at all as I see it and we might as well shut up about it and let the spraying continue without protest.


The trouble is that there are presumably other people telling the politicians that they HAVE to do the spraying to mitigate the effects of climate change. This is a matter for scientists, If you get the national security classification lifted all that you will then have will be a debate between scientists who favour and scientists who oppose, what they are now doing. And if you still have the noise from the "sceptics" saying that climate change isn't a problem anyway. This is not to say that getting the national security classification lifted is not a worthwhile objective. Obviously it would be a great achievement. But one would then still have the same political problem to face with the "sceptics" that one has now. Doubtless there would be greater hysteria over climate change, and many of the "sceptics" would become advocates of geoengineering.



You speak of legal Vs. illegal as though it is the people that are responsible for amending or creating law when in fact it is in most countries the body politic, not the people that make or change laws of governance.


"NGOs" have greater and greater influence over politics these days, with the degradation of electoral politics into a media circus.

[halva]

The parliamentarian Xirotiri who brought up in the Greek parliament the issue of chemtrail spraying over the city of Larissa is more or less inaccessible to people who want to talk to her about this.


The strongest guard of all is placed at the gateway to nothing.
(F. Scott Fitzgerald)

[halva]

There is another thing about making demands of politicians. Nowadays anyone who does that are themselves defined as "the problem".

[Lou]

Well, I have collaborators here in Greece who have more or less the same ideas, but I don't see that they are making much progress. The parliamentarian Xirotiri who brought up in the Greek parliament the issue of chemtrail spraying over the city of Larissa is more or less inaccessible to people who want to talk to her about this. Our webmaster thinks she raised the question in parliament just so that it would look good on her curriculum vitae. Perhaps a reference to it could be made just before the next elections.

Of course one thing that is an advantage to us here in the European Union is that the European integration process is incomplete. Grass roots participation is encouraged, in a kind of way, to the extent that the political class (or an element in the political class) judges that it can be useful for the European integration process.



The trouble is that there are presumably other people telling the politicians that they HAVE to do the spraying to mitigate the effects of climate change. This is a matter for scientists, If you get the national security classification lifted all that you will then have will be a debate between scientists who favour and scientists who oppose, what they are now doing. And if you still have the noise from the "sceptics" saying that climate change isn't a problem anyway. This is not to say that getting the national security classification lifted is not a worthwhile objective. Obviously it would be a great achievement. But one would then still have the same political problem to face with the "sceptics" that one has now. Doubtless there would be greater hysteria over climate change, and many of the "sceptics" would become advocates of geoengineering.



"NGOs" have greater and greater influence over politics these days, with the degradation of electoral politics into a media circus.

I more or less agree with what you're saying but the question remains, how can we expect to find the truth with regard to Chemtrail Spraying / Geo-engineering, etc,...within our so called democratic societies if we do not do it via the long road of the political process.

If there is another way in which to bring about the declassification of spraying / geoengineering projects that are no doubt being conducted under the protection of National Security of the countries involved, I would very much like to know how to do that.

Do you have any suggestions as to how we might do that other than appealing to our politicians via what evidence that we can muster?

It's fairly obvious that there are only a handful of people in the private sector that are trying to gather convincing scientific evidence of the spraying and unfortunately the majority of people who believe this spraying is taking place are unable or unwilling to involve themselves in anything but conjecture and speculation. ( not that they are wrong ) It's just that conjecture and speculation prove nothing and only go to inciting more controversy on the issue.

You claim that geoengineering is probably taking place (Agreed) but my questions regarding Chemtrail Spraying go to the cause and effect which would lead the rational persons to believe that geoengineering is taking place, as I see it there can not be one without the other and proving the spraying is key to uncovering the truth of the geoengineering.

In my opinion, proving 'A' will also lead to proving 'B' but it can not be done through conjecture and speculation, evidence must be gathered in order to present a solid case that proves the spraying for whatever reasons, once the spraying is provable, the motives should follow suit.

[halva]

I more or less agree with what you're saying but the question remains, how can we expect to find the truth with regard to Chemtrail Spraying / Geo-engineering, etc,...within our so called democratic societies if we do not do it via the long road of the political process.


I think it is worthwhile keeping in touch with politicians if we know them, and invite them to what we are doing ourselves, rather than expecting them to do anything.



If there is another way in which to bring about the declassification of spraying / geoengineering projects that are no doubt being conducted under the protection of National Security of the countries involved, I would very much like to know how to do that.


I said in the previous posting that it seems to be a worthwhile objective to get the national security cover removed. How you do it is something to talk about with other Americans. Rosalind Peterson seems to be the most realpolitical and tough-minded activist that has come along so far. I take the cue from her as far as the US concerned, and devote myself to trying to get her an audience in the EU also.



Do you have any suggestions as to how we might do that other than appealing to our politicians via what evidence that we can muster?


Involvement in the climate change movement and agitation around the fact that they are not fighting the 'sceptics' competently. And collaboration with the anti-nuclear movement, in the first instance the movement against nuclear energy in dealing with a second renewed threat that is a by-product of the incompetence that comes with keeping the mouth shut about chemtrails/geoengineering.

It will also represent progress if the Israeli lobby is weakened as much as possible in the USA and forced to depend for support on the European Union.



It's fairly obvious that there are only a handful of people in the private sector that are trying to gather convincing scientific evidence of the spraying and unfortunately the majority of people who believe this spraying is taking place are unable or unwilling to involve themselves in anything but conjecture and speculation. ( not that they are wrong ) It's just that conjecture and speculation prove nothing and only go to inciting more controversy on the issue.


This may be so, but to me it seems equally if not more important to create an entity that is prepared to receive evidence as it is to find the evidence.



You claim that geoengineering is probably taking place (Agreed) but my questions regarding Chemtrail Spraying go to the cause and effect which would lead the rational persons to believe that geoengineering is taking place, as I see it there can not be one without the other and proving the spraying is key to uncovering the truth of the geoengineering.


Well, I have gathered that this is where you are focusing your effort. There are people I collaborate with here in Greece who have the same priority.



In my opinion, proving 'A' will also lead to proving 'B' but it can not be done through conjecture and speculation, evidence must be gathered in order to present a solid case that proves the spraying for whatever reasons, once the spraying is provable, the motives should follow suit.

[Lou]

[QUOTE=halva;756019]I think it is worthwhile keeping in touch with politicians if we know them, and invite them to what we are doing ourselves, rather than expecting them to do anything.
____________________________________

Here in the U.S. we hold our elected officials accountable to their constituents concerns, be it from one state or the entire country, politicians are expected to represent the peoples best interest,... not theirs.

If confronted with enough evidence, a politician is obliged by their oath of office to act on it, it is by this means as I see it that we might be able to overcome the issue of National Security that has their lips sealed at this time with regard to Chemtrails, geoengineering, etc...

[halva]

I think e.g. concentrating on Minnis is better than continuing the debate over how important it is to find evidence. There is no need to argue about it. We both keep doing what we are doing and see who gets further. The only way we can do harm to each other is by trying to force our strategy on the other. It is no obstacle to me that you try to prove to people that "chemtrails" exist. Personally I become irritated with people who make the demand of me that I should prove something. Why should I have to prove the existence and they not have to prove the non-existence? The person who has the complaint is the one who must find proof. The point, then, is to organize things in such a way that it is OTHERS who are complaining, not oneself.

It must be considerations of this kind that have led Footsoldier along the path of focusing on aircraft emissions in general. There are at least there are already other people complaining and one is not confronted with the demand to find proof as soon as one opens one's mouth.

As far as politicians are concerned, I find the process of petitioning politicians a humiliating and exhausting business. But it's OK having interested politicians coming along to functions organized by active citizens.

Joiining ecological organizations that are not specifically focused on 'chemtrails' is also something that appears to have promise, but one finds more ready acceptance if one concentrates on the theory of geoengineering than on the reality (or non-reality) of the chemtrails phenomenon.

It seems to me that trying to convince politicians that chemtrails are a reality is rather like trying to convince American politicians during the Cold War that the Soviet Union was a force for world peace. There was plenty of evidence for such a view, but how useful was the evidence?

[halva]

What Steve McGiffen says here is true. But the Eurosceptic response he appears to favour is a non-solution. The Morning Star is a British Communist newspaper.

The Latest Power Grab

February 28, 2007 19:02 |by Steve McGiffen
http://www.spectrezine.org/Editorial/environment.htm

(how concern for the environment is being used to undermine democracy}

Ever since the late 1980s with its drive to create a single internal market for the whole of the European Community, the European Commission has been involved in repeated attempts to extend its powers. These powers are strictly defined in treaties which demarcate what are known as 'competences' between the EU's centralised institutions and the governments of the member states.

In successive treaties ever more competences have been transferred to Brussels. This not only means that decision-making power has been moved further from the people. It means that it has been removed from the electorates of the member states and handed to the unelected officials of the European Commission and the European Central Bank (ECB) and the appointed judges of the European Court of Justice (ECJ).

In general, opposition to the activities of these bodies should come naturally to any socialist, whatever his or her feelings about European integration may be. Over the last fifteen or so years, the direction of policy from the centre has been blatantly pro-corporate, favouring employers over workers, big firms over small, agri-business over small farmers, and the market over human beings in general. This has helped to bring about a rethink among many on the left who in the darkest days of Thatcherism had begun to see 'Europe' as a possible deliverance from the government's viciously anti-working class policies. It has also meant that the dilemma of what to do should the EU ever propose anything which under normal circumstances progressives would support has rarely had to be faced.

Environmental policy has long been one area in which EU action has on occasions been positive. Most aspects of environmental policy are genuine cross-border issues where international cooperation makes sense. For this reason, even EU critics have put any doubts they may have about the legitimacy of this particular kind of international cooperation to the back of their minds, giving support to a range of measures aimed at such problems as air quality and water pollution, the reduction of harmful chemicals in the environment, and nature conservation.

EU action is not, of course, always satisfactory. The recent watering-down of the REACH plan to control chemicals in consumer goods is a case in point. In some cases it is positively wrong, as in the use of emissions trading as a means of addressing climate change. Even in such cases, however, arguments tend to be about policy, not competence. The European Commission is now taking advantage of this in order to pursue one of the most audacious power-grabs in its long history of empire-building.

Until recently, criminal law was regarded as being within the exclusive competence of the member states. A state which cannot make its own criminal law is no more than a province. The so-called 'war on terror' has already breached this vital area of sovereignty, allowing the US to dictate other countries' approach not only to combating terrorism but to a whole range of matters which seem to have only the most tenuous link to that worthy goal. Now the Commission wants to abolish the sovereign right of the EU's member states to decide what constitutes a criminal breach of environmental law and what punishments should be imposed on those guilty of such.

Increasingly, people understand the depths of the environmental crisis which we are facing and support extremely strong action against those responsible. I share these sentiments wholeheartedly. So why should I oppose giving Brussels the right to tell a member state that action must be taken against a certain individual or corporation which has broken environmental law? Isn't this simply a way of ensuring that the 'polluter pays'? Isn't opposition to it simply kneejerk Europhobia? How can one support EU action on polluting emissions and then oppose the EU having the right to insist on effective punishments for the guilty? These are reasonable questions, but those with experience of the European Commission's modus operandi will probably be able to guess the answers.

The Commission purports to believe that that it is in a better position to come up with suitable punishments than are the member states. The current division of responsibilities is clear. Laws may be made centrally, but it is up to national authorities to enforce them and to determine appropriate sanctions.

The Commission claims that this is not working, that the member states are not enforcing the law.
Much as we would all like to see the irresponsible corporate decision-makers who are responsible for most pollution dealt with severely, the problem of enforcement has in fact little to do with the severity or otherwise of punishment. When legislation is written minimum standards should be included relating to the strength and competence of inspectorates. International agreements should be drawn up addressing, through a vigorous educational effort, the shortage of relevant expertise. It is this lack which means that enforcement of good environmental law is often patchy.

The exertion of undue influence by corporate lobbyists must also take the blame, of course. Yet this undue influence is, however strong it may be in national capitals, at its most powerful in the corridors of the European Commission's Brussels complex.

The real proof of what's going on lies in the clear fact that if environmental laws are being flouted, the means of redress already exist. The Commission can simply take to court any member state it believes is failing to adhere to the law. Individuals who believe the law is not being followed also have the right to mount a legal challenge.

The Commission's proposal has nothing to do with improving implementation and everything to do with extending its powers into ever more areas. The implementation of environmental law must be improved and sanctions on polluters strengthened, but this is a matter for the member states.

It's simple: a people which no longer has the right to say what is a crime, who is a criminal and how they should be punished is a subject people.

Steve McGiffen is a former environmental adviser to the European Parliament's United European Left political group (GUE-NGL) and edits Spectrezine. This article was adapted from his monthly column in The Morning Star

[Et in Arcadia ego]

Damn, Socrates, you sick little monkey..

How many forums you plan on getting banned from, homey?

:rolleyes:

[halva]

The fact that Minnis has also concluded that cirrus clouds generated by aircraft contrails have a net warming effect also make it necessary that someone should ask him why geoengineers recommend the use of of aircraft contrails to mitigate global warming and why they are so impressed by the sudden rise in temperatures registered over the US in the wake of 9/11 when aircraft stopped flying. Would anyone like to organize a debate between Minnis and David Travis?

I have had quite a bit of correspondence with David Travis in the past, much of it including Footsoldier/Deborah also, for whom he seemed to have a particular liking.

Here is the beginning of the latest instalment:

Dr. David Travis,

Hi. Did you catch the Discovery Channel programme on
"Chemical Contrails"?

Patrick Minnis was given a lot of exposure. Any
comments on this?

http://www.debatebothsides.com/showpost.php?p=755176&postcount=8130

This is something I have really been wondering about.

Sincerely,

Wayne Hall
http://www.enouranois.gr



Hi Wayne,

Good to hear from you. Hope the weather is warmer on your side of the
world. Actually, I haven't seen the Discovery Channel show although
many people have told me about it. I do know that Pat is quite
passionate about the need to educate folks about the false information
that has been spread about chemtrails. I'm not sure what he and I
would
debate, however, as we tend to agree on most issues surrounding this
subject. He's been a bit more outspoken than I but I really can't
argue
with any of his statements. We don't always agree on the science about
contrail effects on climate but he's definitely one of the premier
scientists in the field on this subject and our relationship has always
been very positive.

Let me know if you have anything else in mind.

Regards,

David
************************************************** ***********
Dr. David Travis
Associate Dean, College of Letters & Sciences
Professor, Department of Geography and Geology
University of Wisconsin-Whitewater
Whitewater, WI 53190

[halva]

I just noticed that Brian Holmes has put up his Holmestead site the climate change debunking article of Tim Ball that was the starting point for my debate with him.

http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/warming.html

I asked Brian if he wanted to put up the entirety of the debate I had with Tim Ball
http://www.enouranois.gr/english/political/Dialogue_with_a_Climate_Change_Contrarian.doc

but Brian preferred just to put up the Tim Ball article. He told me he thought my attitude to Tim Ball was "harsh".

Tim Ball told me thought Crutzen should have his Nobel Prize taken away for making his proposals to spray the stratosphere with sulphates. But he was not interested in the prospect of saying this to Crutzen to his face.

It is the "middlemen", the "media" that make it possible for the Tim Balls to get away with this kind of demagogy, which evaporates at the first contact with unmediated reality.

[halva]

Here is another contribution from the "climate change sceptic" faction of the "chemmies":

THE GREAT GLOBAL WARMING SWINDLE
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9005566792811497638&q=great+global+warming+swindle

My correspondent asks:

1) if not against global warming, what are chemtrails being used for/ against? I disagree with chris that it`s purely military...my observations tell me there is a correlation with weather
patterns, specifically hours of sunlight.

2) who would really have a vested interest in portraying global
warming as a fallacy? does the argument made in this film (keep 3rd
world underdeveloped) make sense?

The documentary is endorsed by prisonplanet and alex jones (a good sign, in my correspondent's view):

[halva]

Chemtrails Canadian

The principal chemical being deposited in the air consists of various mixtures of barium salts, which were revealed in studies undertaken by a Pennsylvania-based high-tech weapons scientist. Chemicals, he said, were being utilized as part of the development of a new radar system at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio.

Considerable effort has been put into chemtrail research by a physicist who has been associated with Brookhaven National Laboratory on Long Island, N.Y. The scientist, with his fellow researchers, has determined that the chemtrails are being created by efforts of the military in at least four major, but separate, projects.

1. The first project is an effort to block the rays of the sun from hitting the Earth, including ultra-violet radiation that will come through without an adequate layer of ozone in the upper regions above the Earth. In the event of global warming, this, it is hoped, could lower temperatures on the surface of the Earth and block ultra-violet radiation from causing skin cancer in humans. The aerosol being sprayed in this case is probably ALUMINUM OXIDE or a compound that would have similar properties, and is the only one of the government programs that does not use the barium mixtures.


BLACK PROJECTS?
2. The second and most secret project is the Navy's Radio Frequency Mission Planner (RFMP) program, which is a system encompassing a group of computer programs. One of its supporting subprograms is know as Variable Terrain Radio Parabolic Equation or VTRPE. This is a computer radio frequency propagation program that deals with radio waves and enables the RFMP system to visually see the terrain of a battlefield in three dimensions on a television-type screen. The RFMP system also depends on a satellites to supplement the images of a battlefield picture obtained from the ground, thus producing the 3-dimensional images. In providing an interactive picture portraying in the radar screen, the RFMP system allows the computer operator to develop familiarity with the "environment" before a war mission occurs by playing a variety of "what if?" virtual warfare scenarios on his computer screen. Since all major modes of radio frequency propagation are modeled in his computer (the RFMP system), special, sometimes counter-intuitive, cases can be examined in detail and exploited during a battle. Initially, the VTRPE computer program only worked accurately over water and along coastal areas but not over land masses because the system's radar waves required an atmospheric condition known as "ducting," over land, to operate accurately.

This "ducting" problem was solved by releasing an aerosol, a mixture of BARIUM SALTS into the atmosphere over the United States. Thus, they can make an atmospheric radio frequency "duct" with a base of barium aerosol released from aircraft.

One of the researchers, the physicist from Brookhaven, explained how the process works: The chemical and electrical characteristics of THE MIXTURE CAUSES MOISTURE TO STAY IN THE CLOUDS. The aerosol sets up an electrical and chemical environmental that supports RF ducting for the RFMP/VTRPE warfare system.

3. "The mixture of barium salt from the aerosol when sprayed in a straight line will also provide a ducting path form point A to point B and will enable high frequency COMMUNICATION ALONG THE PATH EVER OVER THE CURVATURE OF THE EARTH”, he said. "Enemy high frequency communications can be monitored easier with the straight line A to B ducting medium."

4.
The third project also utilizes the mixture of BARIUM SALTS in the atmosphere and involves weather control. It is a project of the AIR Force and utilizes concepts of radio frequency radiation, developed originally by legendary scientist Nikola Tesla, against the ionosphere above the Earth. Known as the so-called HAARP project, it is manipulating life-support systems in the environment, testing and altering them for military advantage.

Air Force documents, obtained by the independent researchers, indicate that "the risks are high but the rewards are worth it." The mixture of barium salts, supporting moisture, is ADMINISTERED ALONG WEATHER FROMTS AND MANIPULATED IN a controlled fashion. It is believed that microwave energy is also utilized in the weather control program. Weather data is also a required input to the VTRPE program of the RFMP system. Perfect weather control technology will enable the military to WITHHOLD RAIN, CAUSE FLOODS. CAUSE DROUGHT. CAUSE STORMS. WITHHOLD SUNSHINE. DAMAGE FOOD CROPS, AND BRING ANY COUNTRY TO ITS KNEES WITHOUT A SHOT!

5.
The fourth atmospheric project is being run by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) as a means to detect and decontaminate enemy biological attacks. The program also utilizes a mixture of BARIUM SALTS as the base vehicle in aerosol, along with SPECIAL POLYMER FIBERS. The combination allows detection of biological agents. Some biological agents have actually been released into the atmosphere in trials, testing the detection and decontamination systems. It is believed that barium salt, polymer fibers and other chemicals in the atmosphere are the physical irritants that may be directly or indirectly responsible for unexplained nose bleeds, asthma, allergies, pneumonia, upper respiratory ailments and arthritis-like systems.

Chemicals sprayed into the atmosphere are producing air and ground conditions that may be harmful to humans and animals, while stimulating the growth of molds and bacteria. Barium salts, an Earth metal, are toxins that absorb readily into the gastrointestinal tract which are deposited into muscles and other tissue. No case data is available on the long-term effects of barium in humans.

"The programs remain secret because the Environmental Protection Agency and state environmental agencies need 'not know' about the by-products of the metabolites of these biological, illegal and harmful agents," said one of the researchers. "It's for that reason the combined projects have been kept secret from the citizens."

[jayreynolds]

Chemtrails Canadian

The principal chemical being deposited in the air consists of various mixtures of barium salts, which were revealed in studies undertaken by a Pennsylvania-based high-tech weapons scientist. Chemicals, he said, were being utilized as part of the development of a new radar system at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio.

Considerable effort has been put into chemtrail research by a physicist who has been associated with Brookhaven National Laboratory on Long Island, N.Y. The scientist, with his fellow researchers, has determined that the chemtrails are being created by efforts of the military in at least four major, but separate, projects.

1. The first project is an effort to block the rays of the sun from hitting the Earth, including ultra-violet radiation that will come through without an adequate layer of ozone in the upper regions above the Earth. In the event of global warming, this, it is hoped, could lower temperatures on the surface of the Earth and block ultra-violet radiation from causing skin cancer in humans. The aerosol being sprayed in this case is probably ALUMINUM OXIDE or a compound that would have similar properties, and is the only one of the government programs that does not use the barium mixtures.


BLACK PROJECTS?
2. The second and most secret project is the Navy's Radio Frequency Mission Planner (RFMP) program, which is a system encompassing a group of computer programs. One of its supporting subprograms is know as Variable Terrain Radio Parabolic Equation or VTRPE. This is a computer radio frequency propagation program that deals with radio waves and enables the RFMP system to visually see the terrain of a battlefield in three dimensions on a television-type screen. The RFMP system also depends on a satellites to supplement the images of a battlefield picture obtained from the ground, thus producing the 3-dimensional images. In providing an interactive picture portraying in the radar screen, the RFMP system allows the computer operator to develop familiarity with the "environment" before a war mission occurs by playing a variety of "what if?" virtual warfare scenarios on his computer screen. Since all major modes of radio frequency propagation are modeled in his computer (the RFMP system), special, sometimes counter-intuitive, cases can be examined in detail and exploited during a battle. Initially, the VTRPE computer program only worked accurately over water and along coastal areas but not over land masses because the system's radar waves required an atmospheric condition known as "ducting," over land, to operate accurately.

This "ducting" problem was solved by releasing an aerosol, a mixture of BARIUM SALTS into the atmosphere over the United States. Thus, they can make an atmospheric radio frequency "duct" with a base of barium aerosol released from aircraft.

One of the researchers, the physicist from Brookhaven, explained how the process works: The chemical and electrical characteristics of THE MIXTURE CAUSES MOISTURE TO STAY IN THE CLOUDS. The aerosol sets up an electrical and chemical environmental that supports RF ducting for the RFMP/VTRPE warfare system.

3. "The mixture of barium salt from the aerosol when sprayed in a straight line will also provide a ducting path form point A to point B and will enable high frequency COMMUNICATION ALONG THE PATH EVER OVER THE CURVATURE OF THE EARTH”, he said. "Enemy high frequency communications can be monitored easier with the straight line A to B ducting medium."

4.
The third project also utilizes the mixture of BARIUM SALTS in the atmosphere and involves weather control. It is a project of the AIR Force and utilizes concepts of radio frequency radiation, developed originally by legendary scientist Nikola Tesla, against the ionosphere above the Earth. Known as the so-called HAARP project, it is manipulating life-support systems in the environment, testing and altering them for military advantage.

Air Force documents, obtained by the independent researchers, indicate that "the risks are high but the rewards are worth it." The mixture of barium salts, supporting moisture, is ADMINISTERED ALONG WEATHER FROMTS AND MANIPULATED IN a controlled fashion. It is believed that microwave energy is also utilized in the weather control program. Weather data is also a required input to the VTRPE program of the RFMP system. Perfect weather control technology will enable the military to WITHHOLD RAIN, CAUSE FLOODS. CAUSE DROUGHT. CAUSE STORMS. WITHHOLD SUNSHINE. DAMAGE FOOD CROPS, AND BRING ANY COUNTRY TO ITS KNEES WITHOUT A SHOT!

5.
The fourth atmospheric project is being run by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) as a means to detect and decontaminate enemy biological attacks. The program also utilizes a mixture of BARIUM SALTS as the base vehicle in aerosol, along with SPECIAL POLYMER FIBERS. The combination allows detection of biological agents. Some biological agents have actually been released into the atmosphere in trials, testing the detection and decontamination systems. It is believed that barium salt, polymer fibers and other chemicals in the atmosphere are the physical irritants that may be directly or indirectly responsible for unexplained nose bleeds, asthma, allergies, pneumonia, upper respiratory ailments and arthritis-like systems.

Chemicals sprayed into the atmosphere are producing air and ground conditions that may be harmful to humans and animals, while stimulating the growth of molds and bacteria. Barium salts, an Earth metal, are toxins that absorb readily into the gastrointestinal tract which are deposited into muscles and other tissue. No case data is available on the long-term effects of barium in humans.

"The programs remain secret because the Environmental Protection Agency and state environmental agencies need 'not know' about the by-products of the metabolites of these biological, illegal and harmful agents," said one of the researchers. "It's for that reason the combined projects have been kept secret from the citizens."

The identical text has been around for six years.
http://www.rense.com/general11/chmmill.htm

It was, in part, the product of our very own 'footsoldier', who along with her cohorts should but have thus far refused to fill in the blanks between the lines and tell us why they fabricated the whole farrago and why they have since remained silent.

Why?????????

Well, if you can answer(or if she would dare), your check is in the mail!

Wayne, why would you parrot this tired old misinformation?

[dewey189]

"Barium salts, an Earth metal, are toxins that absorb readily into the gastrointestinal tract which are deposited into muscles and other tissue. No case data is available on the long-term effects of barium in humans."There are occupational studies that demonstrate not only the ease with which soluble barium salts are absorbed by pulmonary and oral routes of entry, but how they accumulate in bone and lung tissue as a result of long - term exposure.

[CDsNuTz]

There are occupational studies that demonstrate not only the ease with which soluble barium salts are absorbed by pulmonary and oral routes of entry, but how they accumulate in bone and lung tissue as a result of long - term exposure.


Which could go a long way in explaining the deteriorating health of so many...

[dewey189]

Which could go a long way in explaining the deteriorating health of so many......only if you could document that airborne, water and/or soil contamination has increased since the alleged chemtrail spraying started, then try to prove other sources weren't responsible for the increase. It's difficult but not impossible to do.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Damn, Socrates, you sick little monkey..

How many forums you plan on getting banned from, homey?

:rolleyes:

It was nice to see your Jeff Wells fake ripped apart in his new blog entry. You are one sick fuck disinfo agent. There is no proof that Jim Phelps is a real person, yet you claim there is. You are a fake astroturfing that chemtrails are contrails mixing with pollution. You are a fake and more people than you think are now aware of your and the others' fakery. You are a piece of shit.

You are nothing but an agent out to spread tinfoil by association, and you have failed. So you stay and have fun in your rabbit hole bitch. Sometimes it takes a while to figure out who are the fakes, and you and Jeff Wells are well known now to have zip credibility. You're scum.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Halva is the strawman. Foot Soldier is dick cheney. Arcadia is Gonzales. CDisNuts is shrub himself.
And you Jay Reynolds, you are fat fucking smelly Rush Limbaugh.

[halva]

Nevertheless you do not dare open your mouth unless he is here to show that any heap of shit is able to post at this forum.

[foot_soldier]

Re: “Chemtrails Canadian”:

The above-posted piece is, as I have just determined, taken from an article written by Mike Blair. I was not aware of this particular piece until now and I had nothing to do with it.

My participation in a piece entitled “Chemtrails Over America” from winter 2001 has been covered earlier in this thread. I agreed to do the copy-editing for that piece because I felt at the time it was possible that barium salts were being used as a medium for atmospheric studies involving military radar applications and, specifically, over-the-horizon methodologies. I still think this is a possibility but have not explored it further since my primary concern is with stratospheric ozone depletion. A paragraph on stratospheric ozone depletion was my personal contribution to the original “Chemtrails Over America” published in winter 2001.

I felt then, and I feel now, that the aircraft-generated mess we are seeing in our skies since 1999 and the stratospheric ozone depletion problem are directly connected. I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me and I know it could ultimately turn out that I am wrong. However, I intend to continue working on this one problem.

I do expect people like Jay Reynolds, Socrates / Jeff Reynolds / FUIWontDoWhatYouTellMe / vericarl / etc. and halva to continue disingenuously muddying the waters on this matter. I expect them to continue acting as if I'm out to deliberately confuse people. Obviously there is nothing I can do about that. I know by now that genuinely concerned people can do their own research and become more observant, and I hope they will.

[jayreynolds]

Re: “Chemtrails Canadian”:

[color=green]The above-posted piece is, as I have just determined, taken from an article written by Mike Blair. I was not aware of this particular piece until now and I had nothing to do with it.

My participation in a piece entitled “Chemtrails Over America” from winter 2001 has been covered earlier in this thread. I agreed to do the copy-editing for that piece because I felt at the time it was possible that barium salts were being used as a medium for atmospheric studies involving military radar applications and, specifically, over-the-horizon methodologies. I still think this is a possibility but have not explored it further since my primary concern is with stratospheric ozone depletion. A paragraph on stratospheric ozone depletion was my personal contribution to the original “Chemtrails Over America” published in winter 2001.
Obviously there is nothing I can do about that

A rare admission of culpability from a chemmie disinformation artist.

How sly her comment "Obviously there is nothing I can do about that."

Of course, she can unmuddy the waters' just as easily as she helped to muddy them!

Just be open and forthright about the facts.

Tell all those who you helped deceive the who, how, why, when,etc about this misinformation.

Come clean.

She doesn't tell you the whole story, such as who her cohorts were that made up the "reserachers" mentioned, why they claimed to be NSA/CIA operatives, why she hasn't followed up on any of it, either as a corrective or otherwise.

People genuinely interested in the truth are the people who should be asking her these tough questions as I have for years now.

Those who aid and abet her in the continuing coverup about these facts should be evaluated
with respect to why they have not demanded answers until they are satisfied.

Why chemmies haarp for years about alleged government coverups while their own people are clearly guilty of far worse is just one reason rational people don't take the issue seriously.

[jayreynolds]

I see the misinformation put forth by 'footsoldier' is still being perpetuated by sources here and abroad.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=21473

WHEN WILL CHEMMIES DEMAND THAT CLAIMS MADE BY THEIR OWN PEOPLE AS TO INSIDE INFORMATION BECOME PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE? DON'T ANY OF YOU HAVE ANY REAL CURIOSITY TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS, OR IS IT JUST A ROLE-PLAYING GAME THAT YOU DON"T WANT TO END?

IS IT ANY WONDER RATIONAL THINKERS SHAKE THEIR HEADS AND TURN AWAY????

[halva]

Re: “Chemtrails Canadian”:

The
I do expect people like Jay Reynolds, Socrates / Jeff Reynolds / FUIWontDoWhatYouTellMe / vericarl / etc. and halva to continue disingenuously muddying the waters on this matter. I expect them to continue acting as if I'm out to deliberately confuse people. Obviously there is nothing I can do about that. I know by now that genuinely concerned people can do their own research and become more observant, and I hope they will.

This is an outrageous slander coming from you, Footsoldier, to accuse me of anything disingenuous in my communications with you, and to lump me together with these others. I have never EVER said that you are deliberately out to confuse people, and you know this perfectly well. This is very unprincipled statement on your part, and I do not admire it.

[foot_soldier]

F Off, "Jay Reynolds". You are irrelevant.

And, halva, I'm sorry if I'm wrong.

If I'm wrong.

I truly do not know at this point.

At any rate, I don't have time to waste on this nonsense anymore.

[foot_soldier]

Re: “Chemtrails Canadian”:

The above-posted piece is, as I have just determined, taken from an article written by Mike Blair. I was not aware of this particular piece until now and I had nothing to do with it.

My participation in a piece entitled “Chemtrails Over America” from winter 2001 has been covered earlier in this thread. I agreed to do the copy-editing for that piece because I felt at the time it was possible that barium salts were being used as a medium for atmospheric studies involving military radar applications and, specifically, over-the-horizon methodologies. I still think this is a possibility but have not explored it further since my primary concern is with stratospheric ozone depletion. A paragraph on stratospheric ozone depletion was my personal contribution to the original “Chemtrails Over America” published in winter 2001.

I felt then, and I feel now, that the aircraft-generated mess we are seeing in our skies since 1999 and the stratospheric ozone depletion problem are directly connected. I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me and I know it could ultimately turn out that I am wrong. However, I intend to continue working on this one problem.
.

[halva]

F Off, "Jay Reynolds". You are irrelevant.

And, halva, I'm sorry if I'm wrong.

If I'm wrong.

I truly do not know at this point.

At any rate, I don't have time to waste on this nonsense anymore.


You are absolutely right on the first point and on the last. I don't know why you don't just stay at Megasprayer where you can post without being molested.

[foot_soldier]

And I don't know why you seem to find it necessary to keep directing me as to where I should be posting. If you are so interested in what I post why don't you simply respond to the material instead of continuing your (rather patronizing) running narrative on where and to whom I should be directing my activity. Do you honestly think I am communicating exclusively in online venues? I do talk with people, you know. The concerns being documented in these threads are not limited to people in the online community.

[halva]

And I don't know why you seem to find it necessary to keep directing me as to where I should be posting. If you are so interested in what I post why don't you simply respond to the material instead of continuing your (rather patronizing) running narrative on where and to whom I should be directing my activity. Do you honestly think I am communicating exclusively in online venues? I do talk with people, you know. The concerns being documented in these threads are not limited to people in the online community.

I only give you this advice when I feel unable to do anything about the molestation.

[jayreynolds]

I see the misinformation put forth by 'footsoldier' is still being perpetuated by sources here and abroad.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=21473

WHEN WILL CHEMMIES DEMAND THAT CLAIMS MADE BY THEIR OWN PEOPLE AS TO INSIDE INFORMATION BECOME PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE? DON'T ANY OF YOU HAVE ANY REAL CURIOSITY TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS, OR IS IT JUST A ROLE-PLAYING GAME THAT YOU DON"T WANT TO END?

IS IT ANY WONDER RATIONAL THINKERS SHAKE THEIR HEADS AND TURN AWAY????

Of course, Lou Aubuchont won't touch this part of the discussion because he is a s guilty as 'footsoldier', David Stewart, and the rest of the gang. Lou continues to withold information about his claimed 'Deep Sky' "insider" for years now.

WHY DON'T CHEMMIES HOLD PEOPLE LIKE LOU AUBUCHONT RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR CLAIMS?

PEOPLE LIKE LOU AUBUCHONT WHO FABRICATE SOAP-OPERA STORIES LIKE "DEEP SKY" AS ROLE-PLAYING GAMES NEED TO GET THE THIRD-DEGREE FROM THEIR OWN PEOPLE!

WHAT SENSE DOES IT MAKE BLAMING COVERUPS ON "THEM" AND YET WHEN YOUR OWN PEOPLE MAKE CLAIMS AND COVERUP THE SOURCES YOU GIVE THEM A FREE PASS?????

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LOU AUBUCHONT AND 'FOOTSOLDIER' IN THIS RESPECT.

THEY ARE BOTH GUILTY OF PERPETRATING FABRICATED ELEMENTS WHICH SUSTAIN THE HOAX AND THEN CLAMMING UP TIGHTER THAN TURTLES!

[halva]

A new article by Costas Landos on chemtrails in Cyprus:
http://www.enouranois.gr/sygrafeis/lantos/indexlantos.htm

[jayreynolds]

WHEN WILL CHEMMIES DEMAND THAT CLAIMS MADE BY THEIR OWN PEOPLE AS TO INSIDE INFORMATION BECOME PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE? DON'T ANY OF YOU HAVE ANY REAL CURIOSITY TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS, OR IS IT JUST A ROLE-PLAYING GAME THAT YOU DON"T WANT TO END?

IS IT ANY WONDER RATIONAL THINKERS SHAKE THEIR HEADS AND TURN AWAY????[/QUOTE]

Of course, Lou Aubuchont won't touch this part of the discussion because he is a s guilty as 'footsoldier', David Stewart, and the rest of the gang. Lou continues to withold information about his claimed 'Deep Sky' "insider" for years now.

WHY DON'T CHEMMIES HOLD PEOPLE LIKE LOU AUBUCHONT RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR CLAIMS?

PEOPLE LIKE LOU AUBUCHONT WHO FABRICATE SOAP-OPERA STORIES LIKE "DEEP SKY" AS ROLE-PLAYING GAMES NEED TO GET THE THIRD-DEGREE FROM THEIR OWN PEOPLE!

WHAT SENSE DOES IT MAKE BLAMING COVERUPS ON "THEM" AND YET WHEN YOUR OWN PEOPLE MAKE CLAIMS AND COVERUP THE SOURCES YOU GIVE THEM A FREE PASS?????

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LOU AUBUCHONT AND 'FOOTSOLDIER' IN THIS RESPECT.

THEY ARE BOTH GUILTY OF PERPETRATING FABRICATED ELEMENTS WHICH SUSTAIN THE HOAX AND THEN CLAMMING UP TIGHTER THAN TURTLES!



SEE HOW LOU WON'T TOUCH HIS OWN PARTICIPATION IN THE HOAX WITH A TEN FOOT POLE???

SEE HOW HE IS TOO FRIGHTENED TO RESPOND?

IT'S LONG PAST TIME FOR LOU TO COME CLEAN ABOUT HOW HE IS A FAKE CHEMMIE!

ABOUT HOW HE, TIFFANY BRENDT, AND WILLIAM THOMAS CREATED THEIR "DEEP SKY" HOAX ABOUT AN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER WHO WOULD TELL ALL AND HOW THEY HAD MANY OTHER SUPPOSEDLY "CONCERNED" AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS READY TO COME FORWARD.

ASK YOURSELVES WHAT EVER CAME OF IT?

WAS IT EVER CONFIRMED?

OR DID IT JUST BECOME ANOTHER PART OF THE CHEMMIE PLOT LINE DESIGNED TO KEEP YOU ON THE EDGE OF YOUR SEAT FOR THE "BREAKTHROUGH" WHICH NEVER COMES ????

WHY DON'T CHEMMIES EVER ASK THEMSELVES THESE SORTS OF QUESTIONS?

ARE THEY SCARED OF "LOOPY" LOU?

OR DO THEY REALLY JUST WANT TO WAIT FOR THE NEXT INSTALLMENT OF THE SOAP OPERA - FOREVER.............??

[jayreynolds]

READ FOR YOURSELVES WHAT LOU& Co. WERE TELLING YOU FIVE YEARS AGO!:
http://www.rense.com/general20/cc.htm

GOOGLE SHOWS THIS HOAX HAS BEEN SEIZED UPON BY 579 FAKE OR MISLEAD "CHEMTRAIL ACTIVISTS".
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22deep+sky%22+chemtrails

WHICH IS IT, LOU, ARE THEY ALL FAKES LIKE YOU, OR DID THEY ALL JUST SLURP UP YOUR HOAX AND GET SATISFIED?????

COME OUT OF HIDING LOU AND BE A MAN FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE.

TELL THE TRUTH.

[halva]

I only give you this advice when I feel unable to do anything about the molestation.

Should we try a collective approach to the moderators, involving as many of us as possible? After all, they did make some kind of attempt to assess the situation when Jeff Reynolds tried to get me thrown off.

[jayreynolds]

SO YOU WANT AN ASSESSMENT, EH?

AN ASSESSMENT OF THE SITUATION SHOWS THAT I HAVE BROUGHT UP SOME "INCONVENIENT TRUTHS" ABOUT YOUR "DEEP SHIELD" AND LOU'S "DEEP SKY", AND NOW YOU ARE BOTH IN "DEEP DOO-DOO".

AND SO, WILL HE NEXT INSTALLMENT SHOW WAYNE AND LOU RUNNING AWAY TO SUCK MAMA MODERATOR'S TEAT FOR COMFORT, OR WILL THEY CONTINUE TO WITHOLD FACTS THEIR PEERS ARE CRYING OUT FOR?

[halva]

It's always possible to put this deadshit on ignore-listing but if there is interest in taking an initiative together I would be in favour of it.

[Lou]

It's always possible to put this deadshit on ignore-listing but if there is interest in taking an initiative together I would be in favour of it.

Wayne,

Now you know damm well that confronting Lord Reynolds is exactly what the sick, twisted, demented little Narcissistic prick wants and needs to feed that NPD thing he has going on, so why even think about confronting him, that would make you an enabler, asking for more of his bullshit, wouldn't it?

Ignore the scrawny, raving little puke, let him font away in size 36 red, if no one responds it will drive him even more insane than he already is because the one thing he can not take is being ignored, he has to have attention just like most Narcissist do, why do you think he is so demanding, he's a sick, twisted puppy for sure.

Do what you like with regard to him, it's up to you, just don't complain about his presents when you have the option of ignoring him and choose not to use it.

[halva]

I think actually you should be asking the moderators to do something about him.

[Lou]

I think actually you should be asking the moderators to do something about him.

Wayne,

Running to the moderators is just not my style when it's so easy to just ignore the ASSHOLE !

Let him waste his time writing volumes of big red letters that I will never bother reading - Ha, he can jerk off all that he wants to, what do I care. :D

[jayreynolds]

Yes, "Loopy" Lou can pretend to ignore things but we all know nobody comes to a debate forum and ignores the other debaters. Wayne never has, Lou never has, no one ignores, so just stop pretending.

The fact is that even though you claim to be ignoring something, what you would actually be doing is to let the debate go on without you, in other words, you become irrelevant in terms of the reality that is actually taking place.

What abstention from debate on a debate forum brings you is defeat, because abstention is a choice to be a loser in debate.

In the final analysis, Lou, you know you are beaten. No big news to me, you were beaten before you ever showed up, unarmed.

I think you probably knew it anyways, which is why you first tested the water using various aliases, then claimed it was no longer of interest and that you wouldn't be back.

But I am the man who put a ring in your nose, Lou, and as I led you by the nose here then, so I have brought you here again, and can say for certain that you still read whatever I say and do whatever I want, whenever I wish it.

It's tough, I know, but that's the life of a sheople like you, Lou.
You've got "sheep" written all over everything that you do.
You were born to it, get used to it.

[jayreynolds]

WHEN WILL CHEMMIES DEMAND THAT CLAIMS MADE BY THEIR OWN PEOPLE AS TO INSIDE INFORMATION BECOME PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE? DON'T ANY OF YOU HAVE ANY REAL CURIOSITY TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS, OR IS IT JUST A ROLE-PLAYING GAME THAT YOU DON"T WANT TO END?

IS IT ANY WONDER RATIONAL THINKERS SHAKE THEIR HEADS AND TURN AWAY????[/QUOTE]

Of course, Lou Aubuchont won't touch this part of the discussion because he is a s guilty as 'footsoldier', David Stewart, and the rest of the gang. Lou continues to withold information about his claimed 'Deep Sky' "insider" for years now.

WHY DON'T CHEMMIES HOLD PEOPLE LIKE LOU AUBUCHONT RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR CLAIMS?

PEOPLE LIKE LOU AUBUCHONT WHO FABRICATE SOAP-OPERA STORIES LIKE "DEEP SKY" AS ROLE-PLAYING GAMES NEED TO GET THE THIRD-DEGREE FROM THEIR OWN PEOPLE!

WHAT SENSE DOES IT MAKE BLAMING COVERUPS ON "THEM" AND YET WHEN YOUR OWN PEOPLE MAKE CLAIMS AND COVERUP THE SOURCES YOU GIVE THEM A FREE PASS?????

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LOU AUBUCHONT AND 'FOOTSOLDIER' IN THIS RESPECT.

THEY ARE BOTH GUILTY OF PERPETRATING FABRICATED ELEMENTS WHICH SUSTAIN THE HOAX AND THEN CLAMMING UP TIGHTER THAN TURTLES!



SEE HOW LOU WON'T TOUCH HIS OWN PARTICIPATION IN THE HOAX WITH A TEN FOOT POLE???

SEE HOW HE IS TOO FRIGHTENED TO RESPOND?

IT'S LONG PAST TIME FOR LOU TO COME CLEAN ABOUT HOW HE IS A FAKE CHEMMIE!

ABOUT HOW HE, TIFFANY BRENDT, AND WILLIAM THOMAS CREATED THEIR "DEEP SKY" HOAX ABOUT AN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER WHO WOULD TELL ALL AND HOW THEY HAD MANY OTHER SUPPOSEDLY "CONCERNED" AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS READY TO COME FORWARD.

ASK YOURSELVES WHAT EVER CAME OF IT?

WAS IT EVER CONFIRMED?

OR DID IT JUST BECOME ANOTHER PART OF THE CHEMMIE PLOT LINE DESIGNED TO KEEP YOU ON THE EDGE OF YOUR SEAT FOR THE "BREAKTHROUGH" WHICH NEVER COMES ????

WHY DON'T CHEMMIES EVER ASK THEMSELVES THESE SORTS OF QUESTIONS?

ARE THEY SCARED OF "LOOPY" LOU?

OR DO THEY REALLY JUST WANT TO WAIT FOR THE NEXT INSTALLMENT OF THE SOAP OPERA - FOREVER.............??

[halva]

Would you like to come and live here in Greece, Lou?

[Lou]

Would you like to come and live here in Greece, Lou?

No thanks Wayne, I understand that Greece is a beautiful country but I'm perfectly content living here in the Maine sticks.

I did considerable traveling when I was younger and today I don't even care to go out shopping, let alone travel.

[halva]

A second parliamentarian has raised in the Greek parliament the question of aerial spraying:

http://www.syn.gr/gr/keimeno.php?id=4842

This is an English translation of the text:
Aerial spraying over Athens

Question from Fotis Kouvelis to the ministers of Transport and Communications, Environment, Physical Planning and Public Works, National Defence, Health and Social Solidarity

Citizens are protesting that the phenomenon is being observed of aircraft (civil or military) frequently carrying out aerial spraying over Athens and also over other cities, without it being known why they are carrying out this activity. What is the content of the material they are spraying and what purpose is being served by this spraying?

Because from observation of this phenomenon anxiety is being caused among citizens about possible effects on public health and degradation of environmental qualityh, the honourable ministers are asked:

- Is aerial spraying being carried out?

- By which bodies and for what purpose and does its content entail dangers for residents and for the environment?

The parliamentarian tabling the question

Fotis Kouvelis

[jayreynolds]

A second parliamentarian has raised in the Greek parliament the question of aerial spraying:

http://www.syn.gr/gr/keimeno.php?id=4842

This is an English translation of the text:
Aerial spraying over Athens

Question from Fotis Kouvelis to the ministers of Transport and Communications, Environment, Physical Planning and Public Works, National Defence, Health and Social Solidarity

Citizens are protesting that the phenomenon is being observed of aircraft (civil or military) frequently carrying out aerial spraying over Athens and also over other cities, without it being known why they are carrying out this activity. What is the content of the material they are spraying and what purpose is being served by this spraying?

Because from observation of this phenomenon anxiety is being caused among citizens about possible effects on public health and degradation of environmental qualityh, the honourable ministers are asked:

- Is aerial spraying being carried out?

- By which bodies and for what purpose and does its content ential dangers for residents and for the environment?

The parliamentarian tabling the question

Fotis Kouvelis

This is the second?
What sort of answer did the first one get?
What will you do when they tell you you are observing ordinary contrails, Wayne?

Like the eminent Greek scientists Dr. Christos Zerefos, and Dr. Nikos Katsaros told you, they are just contrails............................

[halva]

You mean what will Fotis Kouvelis do?

These are problems that parliamentary politicians face.

[halva]

It is their problem what the answers they receive do for the credibility of their institutions.

[halva]

One thing that Kouvelis may do, if he gets no answers in the parliament in Athens, is to come to us in Aigina for answers. What would you think of that? Would you like to tell him what hoaxers we are, or are you going to cop out in exactly the same way as you did with Aigina mayor Panayotis Koukoulis?

[halva]

Like the eminent Greek scientists Dr. Christos Zerefos, and Dr. Nikos Katsaros told you, they are just contrails............................

If Zerefos and Katsaros were asked to give their considered scientific judgement, they would give diametrically opposite answers.

[halva]

Today, Sunday 18th March there was a public screening in Aigina of Sofia Smallstorm's film "911 Mysteries"
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003&q=911+mysteries&hl=en

The screening was followed by discussion and preceded by the following videoed message of greeting:

Message of Sofia Smallstorm to the people of Aigina, Greece

I wish to express my thanks to the people of Aigina for screening 911 mysteries, a movie that I made in September 2006, the release date. There are many many questions surrounding 911. There are issues that are way bigger than 911 that tie into this and the people of Aigina have apparently become aware of one of these issues, and that is a very unusual thing. So this screening of this movie and the questions that you will ask and answer afterwards, the discussions you will have are very exemplary to the rest of the world. All of what you are doing should be done by every city, every country world-wide. There are things going on above our heads, behind the scenes, that we don’t know about. And I would like you to know. I would like you to talk about it. I would like you to tell others about it. All of us can speak. There is no reason we cannot talk about this. And that is the first step to making consciousness that will change the world. Thank you.

[halva]

WHEN WILL CHEMMIES DEMAND THAT CLAIMS MADE BY THEIR OWN PEOPLE AS TO INSIDE INFORMATION BECOME PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE? DON'T ANY OF YOU HAVE ANY REAL CURIOSITY TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS, OR IS IT JUST A ROLE-PLAYING GAME THAT YOU DON"T WANT TO END?

IS IT ANY WONDER RATIONAL THINKERS SHAKE THEIR HEADS AND TURN AWAY????



Of course, Lou Aubuchont won't touch this part of the discussion because he is a s guilty as 'footsoldier', David Stewart, and the rest of the gang. Lou continues to withold information about his claimed 'Deep Sky' "insider" for years now.

WHY DON'T CHEMMIES HOLD PEOPLE LIKE LOU AUBUCHONT RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR CLAIMS?

PEOPLE LIKE LOU AUBUCHONT WHO FABRICATE SOAP-OPERA STORIES LIKE "DEEP SKY" AS ROLE-PLAYING GAMES NEED TO GET THE THIRD-DEGREE FROM THEIR OWN PEOPLE!

WHAT SENSE DOES IT MAKE BLAMING COVERUPS ON "THEM" AND YET WHEN YOUR OWN PEOPLE MAKE CLAIMS AND COVERUP THE SOURCES YOU GIVE THEM A FREE PASS?????

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LOU AUBUCHONT AND 'FOOTSOLDIER' IN THIS RESPECT.

THEY ARE BOTH GUILTY OF PERPETRATING FABRICATED ELEMENTS WHICH SUSTAIN THE HOAX AND THEN CLAMMING UP TIGHTER THAN TURTLES!



SEE HOW LOU WON'T TOUCH HIS OWN PARTICIPATION IN THE HOAX WITH A TEN FOOT POLE???

SEE HOW HE IS TOO FRIGHTENED TO RESPOND?

IT'S LONG PAST TIME FOR LOU TO COME CLEAN ABOUT HOW HE IS A FAKE CHEMMIE!

ABOUT HOW HE, TIFFANY BRENDT, AND WILLIAM THOMAS CREATED THEIR "DEEP SKY" HOAX ABOUT AN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER WHO WOULD TELL ALL AND HOW THEY HAD MANY OTHER SUPPOSEDLY "CONCERNED" AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS READY TO COME FORWARD.

ASK YOURSELVES WHAT EVER CAME OF IT?

WAS IT EVER CONFIRMED?

OR DID IT JUST BECOME ANOTHER PART OF THE CHEMMIE PLOT LINE DESIGNED TO KEEP YOU ON THE EDGE OF YOUR SEAT FOR THE "BREAKTHROUGH" WHICH NEVER COMES ????

WHY DON'T CHEMMIES EVER ASK THEMSELVES THESE SORTS OF QUESTIONS?

ARE THEY SCARED OF "LOOPY" LOU?

OR DO THEY REALLY JUST WANT TO WAIT FOR THE NEXT INSTALLMENT OF THE SOAP OPERA - FOREVER.............??

http://www.debatebothsides.com/showpost.php?p=766569&postcount=25

[kola]

Eastlunds Patent for altering the Earth

http://www.bariumblues.com/haarp_patent.htm

Kola

[kola]

Chemtrail Spraying is Illegal Under U.S. Law
U.S. Legal Code - US House of Representatives / TITLE 50, CHAPTER 32, Sec.1520a
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/1520a.html

Sec. 1520a. - Restrictions on use of human subjects for testing of chemical or biological agents

A. Prohibited activities
The Secretary of Defense may not conduct (directly or by contract) -
(1) any test or experiment involving the use of a chemical agent or biological agent on a civilian population; or
(2) any other testing of a chemical agent or biological agent on human subjects.

B. Exceptions - Subject to subsections (c), (d), and (e) of this section, the prohibition in subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a test or experiment carried out for any of the following purposes:
(1) Any peaceful purpose that is related to a medical, therapeutic, pharmaceutical, agricultural, industrial, or research activity.
(2) Any purpose that is directly related to protection against toxic chemicals or biological weapons and agents.
(3) Any law enforcement purpose, including any purpose related to riot control.

C. Informed consent required
The Secretary of Defense may conduct a test or experiment described in subsection (b) of this section only if informed consent to the testing was obtained from each human subject in advance of the testing on that subject.

D. Prior notice to Congress
Not later than 30 days after the date of final approval within the Department of Defense of plans for any experiment or study to be conducted by the Department of Defense (whether directly or under contract) involving the use of human subjects for the testing of a chemical agent or a biological agent, the Secretary of Defense shall submit to the Committee on Armed Services of the Senate and the Committee on Armed Services of the House of Representatives a report setting forth a full accounting of those plans, and the experiment or study may then be conducted only after the end of the 30-day period beginning on the date such report is received by those committees.

E. ''Biological agent'' defined
In this section, the term ''biological agent'' means any micro-organism (including bacteria, viruses, fungi, rickettsiac, or protozoa), pathogen, or infectious substance, and any naturally occurring, bioengineered, or synthesized component of any such micro-organism, pathogen, or infectious substance, whatever its origin or method of production, that is capable of causing -
(1) death, disease, or other biological malfunction in a human, an animal, a plant, or another living organism;
(2) deterioration of food, water, equipment, supplies, or materials of any kind; or
(3) deleterious alteration of the environment

[halva]

Good. Let's keep it up. On as many fronts as possible.

[dewey189]

It's a start, but there are lots of loopholes in informed consent procedures. A researcher must outline who would be affected by the testing before they're giving permission to proceed, but at that point it's basically a group of government employees who give the researcher the go-ahead. You can easily underestimate or lie about who would be affected by a given research protocol or, if need be, argue that the "greater good" is served to a panel of people who really trust the government. It's a start, but it's not a panacea.

[halva]

Like the eminent Greek scientists Dr. Christos Zerefos, and Dr. Nikos Katsaros told you, they are just contrails............................

This remark is evident that Reynolds is losing his grip. Zerefos is indeed a chemtrails denier with the best of them, but Katsaros is a collaborator of our website
http://www.enouranois.gr/sygrafeisenglish/katsaros.htm

who has spoken at public meetings organized by us
http://www.enouranois.gr/english/ekdilosisenglish/indexenglish.htm.

Because Katsaros has said to Reynolds privately (so he thought) that he can't prove that chemtrails are not contrails, Reynolds is assuming that he would say the same thing as Zerefos if speaking in public, or speaking to someone other than Reynolds.

This a classic delusion of the solipstic narcissist.

WHAT DO HAVE TO SAY TO THAT, REYNOLDS?

[jayreynolds]

One e-mailer send me the photo below of a C-130 and maintains the spraying is something called Operation Clover Leaf.
The photo shown by Devvy is obviously not a C-130 aircraft.
http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd257.htm

This is a C-130 making chemtrails:
http://dept.kent.edu/afrotc/Visitors/Multimedia/Photos/C-130%20Flares1024.jpg

See the difference?

Note to Devvy:
Big mistakes like this ruin your credibility, just as Rosalind Peterson ruins hers when she claims that the jets she sees making contrails are "supersonic", Brian Holmes when he continues to insist that "Chemtrails are aerosol GW mitigation", cntless other chemmies that Ethylene Dibromide is part of jet fuel, and countless other foibles by chemmies..

It's no wonder your people are seen as being confused. As with Rosalind, Holmes etal., Devvy's misinformation is likely to be repeated by gullibles, furthering the view by the public at large that you people haven't a clue what you are talking about.

[halva]

A second parliamentarian has raised in the Greek parliament the question of aerial spraying:

http://www.syn.gr/gr/keimeno.php?id=4842

This is an English translation of the text:
Aerial spraying over Athens

Question from Fotis Kouvelis to the ministers of Transport and Communications, Environment, Physical Planning and Public Works, National Defence, Health and Social Solidarity

Citizens are protesting that the phenomenon is being observed of aircraft (civil or military) frequently carrying out aerial spraying over Athens and also over other cities, without it being known why they are carrying out this activity. What is the content of the material they are spraying and what purpose is being served by this spraying?

Because from observation of this phenomenon anxiety is being caused among citizens about possible effects on public health and degradation of environmental qualityh, the honourable ministers are asked:

- Is aerial spraying being carried out?

- By which bodies and for what purpose and does its content entail dangers for residents and for the environment?

The parliamentarian tabling the question

Fotis Kouvelis

Reynolds idiot imitator in Greece "someone" thinks that Kouvelis' leftist "Synaspismos" party is now a competitor with the ultra-right LAOS party in conspiracy-mongering.

Does such cretinism have the slightest chance of influencing ANYTHING on the Greek political scene?

[jayreynolds]

Reynolds idiot imitator in Greece "someone" thinks that Kouvelis' leftist "Synaspismos" party is now a competitor with the ultra-right LAOS party in conspiracy-mongering.

Does such cretinism have the slightest chance of influencing ANYTHING on the Greek political scene?
Extremism at the far spectrums of politics indeed do seem to have much in common, Wayne.Z
You should know.........., you old Commie.

If "someone", whoever he/she is, is giving you hell, tell him his check is surely in the mail!

And invite him over here for commiseration............

[halva]

This remark is evident that Reynolds is losing his grip. Zerefos is indeed a chemtrails denier with the best of them, but Katsaros is a collaborator of our website
http://www.enouranois.gr/sygrafeisenglish/katsaros.htm

who has spoken at public meetings organized by us
http://www.enouranois.gr/english/ekdilosisenglish/indexenglish.htm.

Because Katsaros has said to Reynolds privately (so he thought) that he can't prove that chemtrails are not contrails, Reynolds is assuming that he would say the same thing as Zerefos if speaking in public, or speaking to someone other than Reynolds.

This a classic delusion of the solipstic narcissist.

WHAT DO HAVE TO SAY TO THAT, REYNOLDS?

..

[halva]

Extremism at the far spectrums of politics indeed do seem to have much in common, Wayne.Z
You should know.........., you old Commie.

If "someone", whoever he/she is, is giving you hell, tell him his check is surely in the mail!

And invite him over here for commiseration............

You see this frivolous fool is proud to have idiots working with him. As if nothing more important were at stake than the outcome of a chess game or a football match.

[jayreynolds]

You see this frivolous fool is proud to have idiots working with him. As if nothing more important were at stake than the outcome of a chess game or a football match.

Now, Wayne, who is more the idiot, "someone" else who points out your foibles to you, or you, when you make them, and do nothing in correction?

As far as games go, very true. I don't pay much attention to sports events, never play cards, board games or puzzles, but get lots of enjoyment when I deal with real people in this game of "let's pretend chemtrails". Keep it coming and you'll provide me(and Dewey) with even more entertainment..............

[halva]

This remark is evident that Reynolds is losing his grip. Zerefos is indeed a chemtrails denier with the best of them, but Katsaros is a collaborator of our website
http://www.enouranois.gr/sygrafeisenglish/katsaros.htm

who has spoken at public meetings organized by us
http://www.enouranois.gr/english/ekdilosisenglish/indexenglish.htm.

Because Katsaros has said to Reynolds privately (so he thought) that he can't prove that chemtrails are not contrails, Reynolds is assuming that he would say the same thing as Zerefos if speaking in public, or speaking to someone other than Reynolds.

This a classic delusion of the solipstic narcissist.

WHAT DO HAVE TO SAY TO THAT, REYNOLDS?

..

[halva]

Now, Wayne, who is more the idiot, "someone" else who points out your foibles to you, or you, when you make them, and do nothing in correction?

As far as games go, very true. I don't pay much attention to sports events, never play cards, board games or puzzles, but get lots of enjoyment when I deal with real people in this game of "let's pretend chemtrails". Keep it coming and you'll provide me(and Dewey) with even more entertainment..............

Are you pleased at the way Reynolds is attempting to co-opt you Dewey?

[halva]

Dewey, why does Reynolds introduce into this discussion the names of two Greek professors who are known only to me?

[kola]

CONTRAILS: KILLING US SOFTLY?





By: Devvy
March 19, 2007

© 2007 - NewsWithViews.com

All of us at one time or another have looked up into the sky and seen those beautiful, fluffy clouds floating by or some that just seem to hang there for our enjoyment. Some of them look as soft as a pillow. But, over the decade, we the people have seen those natural creations take on a more sinister apparition in the form of man made contrails. On December 19, 2004, I wrote a news column for NWVs on this very issue; see here. Immediately, my mail box filled up with assertions that the issue of contrails is just more conspiracy malarkey and it's just "steam" coming out of commercial airliners. This prompted me to write a follow up column; see here.

Over time, I met Rosalind Peterson, who has been doing the hard research on this issue; her credentials here. Rosalind's research has gone far and above what most people can imagine. One of the most important presentations she made during our meeting at the State Capitol in Sacramento, California (details here) were the water tables showing the spikes in aluminum and barium, and the FAA fly over sheets for the Mendocino area. Even the nit wit at Rep. Neillo's office was surprised when Rosalind presented these documents which clearly showed military and civilian plane patterns; color ink is used to designate which is military and which are civilian planes, private or commercial. Neillo's aide could clearly see was one set of fly overs were unidentified. These fly over patterns are silly when you look at them. They go crisscross and in circles and then simply fly off into the sunset. No one can tell you why this crazy fly over pattern on a specific day or who these planes belong to and unfortunately, Neillo's aide simply refused to look into the matter. He arrogantly told me the contrails in Sacramento that I observed from my house only three miles from the airport were from commercial jets. Of course, it makes perfect sense that 2-4 commercial jet liners like Delta or United, would take off from the Sacramento airport at the same time, fly north and south and then east and west for 3-4 hours and then head for Philly or Boston. Now, why didn't I think of that!

The one thing Rosalind can tell you: When those planes leave her area (Mendocino County), the sky is no longer a brilliant, clear blue, but a gray, drab color, the same as Sacramento and now where I live. My husband and I moved out of California last June for several reasons; some I covered in a recent column. One of the reasons is also the contrails spraying and the massive doses Sacramento has been getting for years; a couple hours drive from Rosalind's area. There is no question in my mind that the failure of our tomato plants three years running was due to the spraying and all the documentation and photos that Rosalind gave me to study clearly show the condition of our plants exactly the same as those up in Mendocino County where heavy spraying has been going on for years. Agriculture in her area as well as destruction to trees and plants is already well advanced and I shutter to think what will happen if this isn't stopped.

To my knowledge, prior to my arrival in Big Spring, Texas (between Midland and Lubbock) last June, there had been no spraying. Three weeks after I arrived, I saw the first day of it and I simply wanted to scream. This is a heavy agriculture area (cotton) with many organic growers. While the frequency of the contrails have been moderate compared to Sacramento, starting the first of this year, it has been stepped up. With the exception of Excedrin, I do not take over the counter products, never have. I do not have allergies, I don't get colds, the flu or anything else. I don't get infections, I don't get sick, I maintain a high school level weight and walk my doggies every day weather allows. It has been my goal for decades to work towards staying healthy so I won't be a burden to myself or my family. What does all this have to do with contrails?

On certain days, just like in Sacramento, the big headache hits and I don't even have to look up to know why. My husband has suffered like a dog from allergies as long as I've known him. On the spraying days in Sacramento, his sinuses went into over drive. Mine didn't bother me, but I would get a bad headache. Here in Big Spring, the spraying is not only picking up, but whatever it is, I am telling you that it is attacking our bodies. On February 16, 2007, I went out to run errands. The planes were already flying over. Within three hours the entire brilliant blue sky became drab, gray and I was sneezing every few minutes; I never sneeze. By dinner time, my head felt like a Goodyear tire and my nose was simply beat to death. I then went to Arizona and over to Austin; no more attacks because I saw no spraying during both road trips. On March 5, 2007, I walked out into my back yard with the dogs and within a few minutes, the sneezing started. I looked up and two planes were over head leaving their contrails. Within a few hours, our entire sky was gray gunk again. These two photos are from Rosalind; they're identical to our sky after spraying.



On March 7, 2007, I again went outside with the dogs and within minutes, the sneezing started and within an hour, my head felt like I was zonked out. It got worse as the day went on; by dinner my nose was dead from Kleenex swabbing. Four planes spent five full hours drenching our sky. These were not commercial air liners. I am 45 miles from Midland Airport. Here and there you will see commercial planes overhead as they leave the area, but they do not leave any contrails. These planes flying over our area are flying low enough to see they are completely white and appear to be cargo planes of some kind. March 7th was so bad, I almost couldn't function, but I stood outside and watched those four planes go north to south and then east to west, behind them were long, white streaks which turned into various patterns. There has been no spraying since the 7th and I haven't sneezed once. My best friends who live two miles away are also experiencing the same symptoms and misery.



I don't care what anyone says: what we're seeing here and all across this country is not chemtrails from commercial aircraft or military planes simply flying over. One has to ask themselves what do these pilots think their mission is? They suddenly appear over an area where the sky is absolutely, crystal blue and flying back and forth for hours leaving these long contrails behind them and leave the entire area blanketed with gray haze. Don't these pilots - whoever they are because no one from state to federal officials will tell us - what the Hell are you doing up there? If you are a pilot flying these missions or if you know someone who is and it has to be military, please contact me. I will never reveal a source, but we need someone to come forward.

Rosalind has a web site that has been documenting this whole issue. Click here to see the pictures and they are pretty much the same across the country. Mail continues to pour into my e-mail box on this issue from people who are experiencing serious medical problems; their skies are being decorated by planes flying over, departing and leaving behind gray, gunky sky. As Rosalind attempted to explain during our meeting at Rep. Neillo's office: this is an environmental disaster of monumental proportions underway. Three years ago I interviewed a man who worked for more than 30 years for the California Dept. of Fish and Wildlife; he knows Rosalind well. Allan told me the same thing about the destruction to trees and crops. This is serious and we must get to the bottom of this contrail mystery. You would think these dunderheads in the state and federal agencies would want to know themselves since they and their families are also breathing this poison which is killing the food supply and critical eco structures like trees.
cont.....>>>>>>>>>>

[kola]

cont.......

I am taking a couple of steps here which I will write about later. To say I am PO'd is putting it mildly. I am a healthy adult and what I have gone through during these spraying periods has been horrendous. The symptoms only last the one day, but who knows the long term effects to our bodies? Are we to be used as guinea pigs and told just to go away? In the meantime, we need scientists and doctors to take some pro-aggressive action. First: We need samples taken within an hour after the spraying starts. Samples from leaves, trees, sickly crops that used to be healthy and humans - specifically, swab the inside of the person's mouth and nose and get it analyzed by a lab to see what's in the saliva and mucus. There is a section on health effects on Rosalind's site (click here). Rosalind and probably others have proof positive of deadly chemical spikes in the water tables. The problem is that not a single member of a state legislature or federal representative in Congress will address this issue. All constituents receive is a form letter full of bull. These same legislators laughed when Jodi Waters brought forth her allegations about the gas additive, MTBE. She was right and the environmental disaster is still being cleaned up; the human part and tragedy of people dying is still underway. The contrail issue is going to be a million times worse if it isn't stopped.

There are many, many web sites on this issue. One e-mailer send me the photo below of a C-130 and maintains the spraying is something called Operation Clover Leaf. The web site I found with this name has one section on climate change and geoengineering which you can view here. Rosalind has also been gracious enough to provide me with her flyers. They are available on my web site, link below. Print them and give them out at every meeting, work, church and to friends and neighbors.



There is a petition on line to Congress. I urge you to sign it; see here. We need to get these political animals in Congress to pay attention to these serious issues and quit wasting time and money on non issues like the firing of a handful of U.S. Attorneys. Scientists, doctors: Let's get those samples from plants, trees and humans and get them to credible laboratories for evaluation. I know America is dying from a thousand cuts and millions of us are fighting as hard as we can to stop this massive invasion by illegals, the NAU, stop the rape of we the people to fund unconstitutional, illegal invasions of other countries, 911 and the list goes on and on.



However, if we're all sick and dying from man made disasters like contrails and our food supply poisoned, we won't be able to fight back. Regular readers of my work know that I am not some flighty, conspiracy type. The contrails issue is real, it's deadly serious and we must find out who these planes belong to, who has authorized the spraying and exactly what chemicals they are spraying because our very lives depend on it.



Note: I will be speaking in April for the Paragon Foundation along with Jerome Corsi, Derry Brownfield and James P. Owen in Alamogordo, New Mexico. Details are here. I hope to see you there.

Important information:

1. Rosalind's Site
2. Very effective flyers (begin page 5)
3. Increased illness linked to mystery powder
4. A Doctor Speaks Out About Chemtrails
5. Experimental Weather Modification: Adverse impacts on Agriculture and Micro-Climates
6, Chemtrails and Terror in the Age of Nuclear War
7, "We wouldn't have blue skies anymore"
8, Scientist publishes 'escape route' from global warming
9, The nonsense of global warming
10, The Great Global Warming Swindle - free video
11, Chemtrails: GAO report admits "chaff"
12, Special Report: 'Toxic Sky?"
13, Patent - NASA Barium Ion Cloud
14, Weather as a Force Multiplier: Owning the Weather in 2025
15, The Intercontinental Chemical Transport Experiment – Phase B (INTEX-B): An update
16, Former Naval Physicist: Government Can Control Hurricanes
17, Greenhouse theory smashed by biggest stone

© 2007 - NewsWithViews.com - All Rights Reserved

[halva]

Raynolds, why do I link you to this post?
http://www.debatebothsides.com/showpost.php?p=766569&postcount=25

[halva]

I am supplementing Kola, not competing with him.

[halva]

Dewey, do you still defend Reynolds' freedom of speech?

[halva]

What this means is: whose side are you on?

There is no "neutral ground".

Who is not with us is against us.

[halva]

Any disagreements I might have with Kola, about global warming, for example, are irrelevant.

[halva]

Could you look Devvy in the eye in real life, Dewey, and defend Reynolds' freedom of speech? Answer please.

[dewey189]

Are you pleased at the way Reynolds is attempting to co-opt you Dewey? I think "amused" is closer to the way I feel than "pleased". Doesn't bother me one way or another.
Dewey, why does Reynolds introduce into this discussion the names of two Greek professors who are known only to me?I'm quite sure other people know these guys exist, but in any case, I don't have a clue why he brought them up, nor do I really care.

[halva]

He brought them up in order to provoke me into a reaction at the inaccurate statement he was making about them. My reaction would enable him then to enlist you as an ally in being amused at my "entertaining" behaviour in reacting.


I get lots of enjoyment when I deal with real people in this game of "let's pretend chemtrails". Keep it coming and you'll provide me(and Dewey) with even more entertainment..............

These are strategies that are evidently taught at schools for trolls as means of sowing divisions between active citizens and they are resorted to again and again and again by Reynolds. If there is no material available from postings at this forum he will introduce references to people at other forums and use them to set up a division between the people elsewhere and people posting here. It is something he has done to the point of insanity with Footsoldier, for years. There should be a rule against it and he should have been expelled for it. He should have been expelled in any case for breaking the existing rules.

Does "free speech" of this kind really help in assessing the evidence in relation to some issue and coming to a sound judgement about it?

Being "amused" at it is all very well, but do we perhaps have some rights that are being violated by this "amusing" behaviour of Reynolds? If Americans don't know how to assert themselves in order to secure basic rights, perhaps you are going to have to be "liberated from without" like Nazi Germany.

Our friend "Swamp" at the Gastronamus forum coined the phrase "the right to listen" and it is this right that is violated by Reynolds' free speech. It is particularly unacceptable in relation to newcomers and young and inexperienced people seeking to find out the truth about the matters that concern them and should concern them..

[halva]

From a correspondent in Portland, Oregon:

"The spraying has become much more visible of late as the skies are clearing up and it looks like there is some new stuff that they are using all the time that spreads out to become much wider than an "average" contrail. I tried to call the weather reporter at the Oregonian and offered to refer him to "legitimate" material on this and he hung up on me."

Here in Aigina our problem is lack of rain. It has been a very dry winter and it looks as if we are going to face some severe problems this coming summer, on an island which has problems with water at the best of times.

[halva]

The risks of relying on adaptation
http://www.desmogblog.com/the-risks-of-relying-on-adaptation#comment-50831
(I have made a comment at this 'smogblog' forum).

Trying to change the earth's climate is tricky (CNN)
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/03/18/climate.technology.ap/index.html

[halva]

Some enlightening interaction has developed at the first of the above links.

[halva]

Deborah/Footsoldier put this up at Megasprayer



If people could have the benefit of hearing the straight facts directly from the climate research community instead of being treated like potentially volatile idiots by the Running Dog mainstream media(tors) they might more clearly understand that 1) there are measureable changes in progress which increasingly indicate climatic instability already well underway and 2) that most of these changes are in fact a direct result of our overloading our atmospheric and marine systems with more waste than they can process.

There is very little if any "hysteria" being expressed in the research literature. It's the print and broadcast media that are generating whatever "hysteria" and confusion exist on the matter of changing conditions and their causes.

The research community consistently indicates that the only way to keep things from getting any worse than they are is to cut back on emissions, primarily CO2 emissions. This is what they recommend based on what they're seeing.


It is the with the objective of removing the "middlemen" (i.e. the media and the politicians that serve them) from the discussion that I have been trying to find a way to get a direct public debate between Crutzen and Rosalind Peterson.



I personally do not understand why it is so difficult for people to think seriously about this.


This is something I have noticed.



I suppose it has something to do with the way the issue has been framed in the media. When all people see is that life as we know it will surely cease to exist if we are asked to cut back on consumption they're not going to be motivated to think about what relatively little effort it would take to assume some responsibility for their share of the waste that is overwhelming our life-support systems.


This is not the only reason. An entire post-Cold-War scenario with climate change taking the place of the threat of nuclear annihilation, and the signs changed from positive to negative: (danger-mongering to denial), has been devised and can be seen in its pristine purity in Teller's "Sunscreen" article. The scenario is being implemented with the same systematic thoroughness that the Cold War nuclear annihilation scenario was marketed and imposed.

Diane Harvey has read my writings on this subject (which admittedly require updating) and I often wonder why she, who once had so much to say, has grown so quiet in recent years (following her attempt to expel Gabriel Stetter from our fraternity). Diane Harvey was admittedly subjected to savage verbal (and perhaps other) persecution by Reynolds and I don't know if this is a factor. And it is true that Gabriel Stetter does not have "helpful" views on climate change. Gabriel is informally allied with a tendency in our Greek group whose proclivities towards "conspiracy theorizing" can sometimes be mildly irritating.

But none of his was or is enough to explain the extremity of Diane Harvey's hostility to Gabriel.



Anyway - Chem recently made the comment that it's essentially down to two kinds of people at this point: "those who give an eff and those who don't." I just got off the phone from a 3-hour discussion with Diane Harvey on this and related matters, and we both agree with Chem. It may sound pretty harsh, but I don't think there's any excuse anymore for people who refuse to even acknowledge what is transpiring right in our faces let alone consider what they could do to help.

The distorted corporate ethic responsible for setting the tone of unlimited growth, sky's-the-limit profits and open-ended exploitation of every last vestige of our remaining natural resources has become almost monolithic as it seeks ever more effective means of perpetuating its capacity to operate unfettered.

Until people in large numbers simply refuse to support this miserable trajectory we are just going to see more of the same.


I don't agree with this assessment, which is defeatist.



On the matter of "carbon neutrality" and related modes of offsetting what I am now calling "manufactured guilt", I think a much simpler way of approaching the problem would be for each individual to seriously consider doing the best they can to cut back on their own waste and emissions production. Contrary to what the "It's My Right To Live Exactly As I Please" contingent would have us believe, it actually would not require a precipitous descent into Stone Age living to lighten the load on our ecosystems. That is possibly the most blatantly ignorant and obnoxiously over-used message I have seen in opposition to the idea of assuming some personal responsibility for the conditions we are creating.

Anyway, we can each do only what makes sense in our own lives. It's with ourselves that we have to live in the end.


Footsoldier why not see if Diane Harvey is interested in intervening in the Smogblog discussion I mention a couple of postings back?
http://www.debatebothsides.com/showpost.php?p=767267&postcount=8209

[halva]

On past record Footsoldier will ignore the above posting.

[dewey189]

Contrary to what the "It's My Right To Live Exactly As I Please" contingent would have us believe, it actually would not require a precipitous descent into Stone Age living to lighten the load on our ecosystems.That's so true.

[halva]

I hope your friendly reception of Footsoldier's posting will make her feel friendlier to us here also.

[halva]

Anyone interested in seeing chemtrails over the Acropolis in Athens:

http://enouranois.blogspot.com/

[halva]

Chem 11 posted this at Megasprayer:

There's nothing 'holier-than-thou about' taking personal responsibility for the welfare of the species and this woman has to be an especially stupid specimen to criticize one family's personal commitment by highlighting Gore's lack there-of.

Unfortunately, until this guy gets his own house in order, the Media will use this sad state of affairs to ridicule anyone who actually has changed the way they live.

The problem isn't going to go away, and the solution is very simple. But he won't do it for the same reason he didn't become the President of the country that elected him; he's weak and he follows the path of least resistance when the chips are down.

Psychological analyses of this kind are politically useless. There is no point in acting as if anything one says about the personal qualities of people at the top of politics is going to have any effect on anything, The point for Americans is to vote for Gore and/or whoever he works with but at the same time not to take any crap from his political base.

Why are more of us not telling the people at DeSmogBlog a thing or two, for example.
http://www.desmogblog.com/the-risks-of-relying-on-adaptation#comment-50831

This is the really unacceptable aspect of the politics of Al Gore and company and it is what makes them defenceless against the Inhofes and the contrarians.

.

.

[halva]

In The Bag
28 Mar 07
http://www.desmogblog.com/in-the-bag
In six months, San Francisco will become the first North American city to ban plastic bags. It's likely that Mayor Gavin Newsom will approve the legislation which was voted in by San Francisco's Board of Supervisors. The city, which uses 181 million plastic bags annually is set to save 450,000 gallons of oil a year with this move, as well as eliminating the 1400 tons of plastic bag waste currently sent to landfills.

[halva]

Deborah puts in a good word for Al Gore in opposition to Chem 11.
http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=Discussion&action=display&thread=1162278611&page=9#1175217703

The question is HOW DOES ONE INTERVENE EFFECTIVELY AT THE BASE OF THE CLIMATE CHANGE MOVEMENT? Not by slagging off Gore as Chem does, and not by flattering him as Deborah does.

Is this (the base of the climate change movement) not be where we should be concentrating the greater part of our energy?

[halva]

Scientists weigh risks of climate 'techno-fixes'
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0329/p13s02-sten.html

[halva]

Being better:
http://www.desmogblog.com/how-can-we-be-better

[halva]

Rosalind Peterson's analysis of Discovery Channel spin (i.e. deceit)
http://www.airapparent.ca/library/full_text/opinion/peterson_perspective.htm
is the best reply to those who are still watching their television sets in expectation of a 'breakthrough'.

[halva]

Rosalind Peterson recently appeared on Discovery Channel’s television documentary programme “Chemical Contrails”
http://www.airapparent.ca/

but says that she was misrepresented
http://www.airapparent.ca/library/full_text/opinion/peterson_perspective.htm

Rosalind comments below on Sven Giegold’s article “The Climate as Merkel Propaganda”
Rosalind Peterson: I think this article has merit and should be put out worldwide because of what is happening worldwide. It is easy to create a climate change crisis and then drive policies that detract from real problems.
--------------------------------
The Climate as Merkel Propaganda
Sven Giegold
(ATTAC Germany)

All of a sudden everyone is talking about the climate especially the German Chancellor. That's a way to cover up the social conflicts within the EU and G8. But protecting the climate will be impossible without justice.

The EU is in deep crisis. Many people are dissatisfied with the social insecurity, their precarious employment, the growing poverty and inequality.

Now the EU discovers a new source of common identity: saving the climate. Angela Merkel returns as a shining victor from the EU-Council. In the German media she is celebrated for two resolutions till 2020: 20 % less carbon-dioxide as well as 20 % renewable sources within the energy-mix of the community. In Germany well known solar-power guru Franz Alt triumphs: The community of 27 countries looking for a goal could become the engine for a turnaround in solar power worldwide. In future the breakthrough for renewable energies and the hopes for a solar power trend will have a new champion: Angela Merkel!?

With this European draft now the host would like to push through the turnaround in climate policies at the G8 in Heiligendamm. For this reason the G8 Ministers for Environment met during in March 2007 in Potsdam with poor results.

The G8 has itself similar problems to those of the EU. Among the member countries there are huge political tensions and the asocial results of their neo-liberal policies are increasingly less well accepted. This shows for example at the World Trade Organisation (WTO) and at the International Monetary Fund (IMF), which are both G8 dominated.

The WTO-negotiations are not getting anywhere, since the developing countries are demanding a fair deal and the industrialised countries can no longer push through their interests. At the IMF hardly any developing country is asking for their poisonous loans. Years of on-going criticism by the anti-globalisation movement, combined with some progressive developing countries, have put brakes on the power structures of the industrialised countries. Worldwide the G8 has become a symbol for destructive neo-liberal politics.

Nevertheless even from such a delegitimised institution like the G8 it must to be demanded that climate protection must be furthered. In the current climatic crisis only the suicidal and cynical can refuse to grab at any straws that could save them. This is a old tradition, also on the left: as much as the capitalists were hated, improving the working conditions were of course demanded from them. It is legitimate to address even an illegitimate institution for legitimate demands.

But it can be doubted if effective climate policy is compatible with the politics of the G8. First of all there is a problem of credibility. While Merkel is declaring international climate protection, she conducts old fashioned politics at home and represents at the EU short-sighted interests for German polluting industries. German motorways have no speed limit. When the EU tries to set carbon-dioxide limits for cars the strongest outcry comes from Berlin. Germany plans 6 new power plants for brown coal and 17 for anthracite. Air traffic in general, the construction of new airports and motorways are publicly subsidised. The railways as the most environmental friendly means of transport are not going to be massively expanded, but is to fall into the hands of private investors.

(Rosalind Peterson: Much of the same is going on in the United States. Corporate America has become very powerful, even more powerful than before, under the Bush Administration. It will be hard to reverse and most of those running for President in America are beholden to these very interests. And look who is running the WTO.)

For years the will has been lacking to push consequently for energy efficiency while renewable energies were successfully developed. Most likely the EU will also miss its internationally binding Kyoto target to reduce the emission of greenhouse gasses by 8 % in comparison to the year 1990.

Additionally despite international commitments the reductions are largely not achieved domestically, but by financing climate protective measures in the Third World. Without successes at home one can hardly demand climate protection measures by newly industrialising and developing countries.

(Rosalind Peterson: I don't know that we are financing climate protective measures in the Third World to any great extent. We want to privatize their natural resources and their water. We may help a few but the ultimate goal behind the scenes is to exploit and then to control. In the market system we need more consumers and we need more slave labor. This is the goal. An impoverished population has little time to fight and little education. This is why there is a determined effort in the United States to lower the standard of living, eliminate production and jobs. Once this happens the American public will have little left to fight what is happening here and around the world. This started under the Reagan Administration, pushed hard by Bush I and has continued ever since unabated. I fear for our country and the rest of the world. Most Americans hardly know about or understand the nature of these organizations. Their education is still in kindergarten.)

Even greater contradictions exist between the neo-liberal globalisation and effective climate protection policies. Opening global markets for capital and goods leads to continuously growing imbalances and environmental destruction. International climate politic will not be successful if the globalisation process is not brought under social and democratic control. For this three examples:

First, the developing and newly industrialising countries are the main victims of climate change. According to the Polluter Pays Principle the industrialised countries ought to pay for the immense damages. Faced with streams of refugees, droughts and floods enormous financing is required. Therefore instead of demanding of the developing countries that they pay back their debts of two thousand billion dollars the debts ought to be cancelled and the development aid massively increased.

Second, the developing and newly industrialised countries need access to efficient technologies. For the fast distribution of future innovations it is crucial that developing and newly industrialised countries are able to produce these technologies by themselves and develop them further. For this intellectual property rights have to be limited, while still favouring innovation, and transfer key technologies to the developing countries.

This is exactly the opposite to the policies of Angela Merkel, who demands from the G8 a strong worldwide enforcement of intellectual property rights for patents. As with drugs and seeds, technologies saving resources are vital for survival, which as far as possible must to be made available to the developing and newly industrialised countries free of charge.

Third, climate protection will only be feasible in industrialised countries if a social turnaround happens. Until 2050, the emissions of carbon-dioxide have to be decreased by 80% to avoid the worst impacts of climate change. This reduction target harbours many opportunities for new jobs and economic development. At the same time many people have to change their habits. Such a level of change can only be accepted with social security. But this is incompatible with neo-liberal employment policies like pensions and unemployment benefits (Hartz IV) on poverty level.

It can hardly be imagined that the increasing differences between rich and poor can go together with serious climate protection. The increasing prices for energy will lend an additional dimension to the social disparity. While some can still afford air travel and luxury limousines others can hardly effort their heating bills. It is unlikely that this will be accepted. Climate protection needs social justice.

(Rosalind Peterson: I agree.)

Climate policy therefore is much more than just environmental policy. It raises basic questions about justice, which governments have always responded to only under strong public pressure. This pressure has to be build up massively by social movements, non-governmental organisations and trade unions during the G8 summit in Heiligendamm.

SVEN GIEGOLD, Attac Germany

[halva]

A Terrifying Truth
Thursday, 12 April 2007
by Dave Lindorff

http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/content/view/1353/81/#jc_allComments

It wasn’t too long ago that the death of socialism, the triumph of capitalism and the end of history were being widely hailed.

What a difference a few years and a few fractions of a degree in world temperature change makes!

We may still be contemplating the end of history, but of a different sort. It is suddenly becoming painfully obvious that the pursuit of profit and the philosophy of growth for growth’s sake and of dog eat dog is about to kill us all off.

Now that it has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that the earth is headed for a global heat wave the likes of which hasn’t been seen in hundreds of thousands and perhaps tens of millions of years — the kind of killing heat that in the past has led to mass extinctions — it is ludicrous to talk about things like carbon trading and raising vehicle mileage standards.

We need a revolution in the way we human beings live and the way we treat each other.

There is no way that the world’s 6.5 billion people — and especially the 2 billion of them who live in wealthier societies — can continue to consume energy at even close to the level that we have been consuming it. There is no way we in the developed world can continue to live the way we have been living, in oversized houses, heated in winter and cooled in summer. There is no way in the northern hemisphere we can continue to have teakwood or mahogany-floored living rooms and eat strawberries in December.


There is no way that we can continue to squander trillions of dollars on war and military spending every year.

No way, that is, if we plan on leaving a livable world for our children and grandchildren.

The so-called “green” politicians who talk about instituting carbon-trading schemes, about driving hybrid automobiles, about buying fluorescent light bulbs, and about turning down the thermostat and wearing sweaters, are deceiving us or themselves.

None of this is going to save us.

What will save us is recognizing that the age of consumer-driven capitalism is over.

We either come up with a new way to organize society, in which production is based upon real needs, not upon manufactured needs, and in which scarce resources are made available to those who need them, not just to those who can afford them, or we will all be doomed — or at least our progeny.

The peoples of the world — especially of the developed world, but really everywhere — need to recognize that unless our expectations are changed, unless our selfish desire for more is curbed, unless wasteful production is ended, we are all likely to be on that extinction list.

So where are the leaders of boldness and vision in politics, media and academia who are ready to tell the truth? Where are the people who are willing to listen to, and reward that truthtelling?

This is not an “inconvenient” truth we need to confront. It’s a terrifying truth.

We need to change everything, and we need to do it quickly, too.

Here in America, that means an end to subsidies for suburban sprawl. There should be no more federal or state funds for road building and road repair. If people want to live miles away from where they work, let them pave their own roads. That’s the only way to get people to realize they’re going to have to start supporting funding for mass transit, and to start thinking about living near where they work. We need to end subsidies for agribusiness, which has virtually decimated local agriculture to the point that prime farm states like Pennsylvania and New Jersey now import all their food from the West Coast. Ridiculous!

We need to levy a massive tax on gasoline, so that no one will buy cars, and so that those who have them will drive them only rarely. Large, heavy vehicles for personal use should be outright banned. Trucks too should be heavily taxed, so that products will reflect the true cost of the environmental damage that shipping them around causes.

Electricity and home heating fuels should also be heavily taxed, with some kind of a rebate program for low-income families, so that people will stop heating and cooling large homes.

As these things are done, there clearly will be massive dislocation. People who live in hot climes like Florida or Arizona will no doubt decide they can’t afford to cool their homes, and will move north. People in cold regions may decide it’s too expensive to heat their homes and will move to more temperate zones. Companies like the Detroit automakers will go bust or shrink enormously. Power plants will be shut down. Oil companies will go bankrupt.

That all has to happen, but it doesn’t mean people have to starve. We as a society need to demand a government that will help those who are displaced by the crisis to relocate and to find new productive ways to earn a living. A huge government program of investment in alternative energy systems would be able to hire many of those whose jobs are lost by the shutdown of the carbon economy.

A new ethos needs to be developed. Conspicuous consumption, egoism and the so-called “American Dream” of having it all for one’s self and one’s family need to be replaced with a new—actually a very old—concept: communalism.

Instead of thinking of ourselves as consumers and competitive free agents, we need to start thinking of ourselves as passengers on a boat that is sinking. If we all run for the lifeboats and life preservers and fight to see who can be saved, the life vests will be torn and ruined and the lifeboats will fall into the sea and sink. In the end, we’ll all go down. If, on the other hand, we change tack, recognize that we’re all in this together, and make orderly plans to save ourselves collectively, we may all be able to get away.

To succeed, we need to acknowledge that everyone is at risk, everyone is contributing to the common goal of survival, and everyone will be taken care of.

The same approach needs to be taken in the larger world. If the poorer nations believe that they are going to be abandoned to catastrophe and famine, they will do two things: continue to try and survive by the old strategies of wasteful energy use and environmental destruction, and of mass migration to safer havens. The first response — for example the continued destruction and burning down of rainforests for wood and cropland and ethanol feedstocks — will threaten us all with ever worsening global warming. The second will lead to overcrowding of more fortunately situated nations, and a drain on their resources.

The only answer is again for all the wealthy nations, and those that are better situated by geography to survive climate change, to commit themselves to helping the more threatened nations and societies. This is not a matter of altruism; it is the simple logic of survival.

But before we can start making the huge changes that are called for — really the dismantling of the whole capitalist system and the freemarket ethos — we need to start hearing, and demanding to hear, the truth — from scientists, from politicians, from business leaders, from the media, and ultimately from ourselves.

For starters, let’s stop kidding ourselves that the latest UN report on climate change is the real story. That report, ominous as it sounds, doesn’t tell the half of it. The report was first watered down by the scientists who reviewed it, and then it was censored by the governments that feared its findings. For one thing, it didn’t even mention that all the projections for warming during this century don’t even take into consideration the role that hundreds of billions of tons of methane gas underlying the Arctic and Antarctic permafrost and trillions of tons of methane lying in the form of frozen hydrates deep under the ocean could play if that super global warming gas should start pouring out into the atmosphere.

We are in a situation where it is wholly inappropriate to act on optimistic assumptions. Rather, we need to consider worst-case scenarios, and start planning and acting with those in mind. That means, for example, that to keep that methane fiasco from occurring, we don’t want the permafrost to go away in the polar regions, we don’t want the oceans to warm precipitously and we don’t want the ice caps to melt away. That means we have to act much more dramatically than just worrying about coastal erosion and lowered crop yields might lead us to do.

This is a crisis that isn’t going away. It is a crisis that isn’t going to be solved with band-aids. It is a crisis that isn’t going to be solved by smooth talk. And it is a crisis that will get worse the longer we take to recognize its true gravity, and the longer we take to face up to the revolution that needs to take place if we are to prevent it.

And that is the truth.

[halva]

http://www.desmogblog.com/g-8-to-cut-carbon-emissions-dont-bank-on-it

G-8 Calls for Cuts While World Bank Pushes More Oil
Germany in push to set G8 emissions target

(While World Bank increases lending for oil development)

Financial Times, April 13, 2007

Germany, this year's chair of the Group of Eight rich countries, has pushed
the group to set a tough target for reducing carbon emissions, the first
time it has been asked to commit to an explicit reduction.

But environmentalists said the World Bank, which the G8 has asked to finance
the shift away from carbon use in the developing world, was continuing to
ramp up lending for oil and gas.

A February draft of the final communiqué of the June heads of government
meeting, obtained by the Financial Times, says: "Global warming caused
largely by human activities is accelerating . . . beyond a temperature
increase of 2 degrees C, risks from climate change will be largely
unmanageable."

The draft said the G8 would "contribute our fair share" to limit global
warming by ensuring global greenhouse gas emissions peaked in the next 10-15
years and then cutting them 50 per cent by 2050 from 1990 levels.

The US has dismissed calls for limits as "rhetoric". People in Berlin
familiar with the German position said the 2°C limit to global warming
remained in more recent drafts of the communiqué, but was facing "extremely
strong opposition" from Washington, which was fighting its inclusion in the
final draft.

The Germans and the British "would like to retain this language, but it will
be very difficult", one person said.

The G8 has in the past called on the World Bank to fund greener energy
generation in the developing world. Analysis of the bank's data for its
lending in 2006 by the Bank Information Center, a Washington-based campaign
group, showed lending to the fossil fuel industry rose by 93 per cent in
2006, compared with an increase of only 46 per cent in lending for renewable
energy and conservation projects.

"There is a disconnect between what the G8 keeps saying and what the World
Bank is doing," said Graham Saul, director of international programmes at
Oil Change International, a campaign group. "Funding the expansion of the
oil industry is a role the bank has played since the 1970s and it has been a
great cash cow for them."

Jamal Saghir, director of energy for the World Bank, said the upward trend
in the share of the bank's lending for control of carbon emissions was
clear.

Renewable energy and energy efficiency projects had risen to 37 per cent of
the World Bank Group's energy portfolio from just 14 per cent in 1994. "The
bank is a world leader in lending for renewable energy and energy
efficiency," he said. It had matched and beaten the target it had been set
of increasing such lending by 20 per cent a year, Mr Saghir said.

The bank group as a whole includes its private sector arm, the International
Finance Corporation, which has funded several controversial oil and gas
pipelines in the developing world.

The G8 heads of government meet in June to discuss climate change, the world
economy, trade and foreign policy. The communiqué also contains a strongly
worded attack on "investment protectionism", which it says is imperilling
the continued integration of the global economy.

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007

G8 debates real climate action as World Bank Support For Oil Rises

Oil Change, April 13, 2007

Oil Change Press Release, 4/13/07  A leaked draft G-8 Summit Declaration
reveals that G8 leaders are considering an historic breakthrough in the
fight against climate change at the upcoming G8 Summit in Heiligendamm,
Germany. Despite the concern over climate, the draft ignores hundreds of
billions of dollars in fossil fuel subsidies including increasing levels of
support from aid agencies like the World Bank.

The world urgently needs the G8 to take aggressive action on climate change
and the draft Summit Declaration suggests that they may finally be ready to
do it, said Graham Saul, International Programs Director for Oil Change
International. Targets and timetables for real actions are critical, but
the G8 is ignoring the most obvious thing they could do right now  cut off
public funding for fossil fuels.

Figures compiled by the Washington-based NGO, the Bank Information Center,
show that the World Bank support for fossil fuels increased by 93% in FY06
($869 mil) over FY05 ($450.8 mil). Moreover, the private sector investment
arm of the World Bank, the International Finance Corporation, increased its
financial support to oil companies by 77%. Bank Group support for renewable
energy also increased, although at a lower rate  46%.

In Gleneagles, Scotland, two years ago, G-8 leaders instructed the World
Bank to create a new framework for clean energy and development, including
investment and financing. Its not only his girlfriend that Wolfowitz is
helping out, its his friends in the oil industry too said Steve Kretzmann,
of Oil Change International. If this is the Banks new direction on energy,
its time for the G8 to pull their money out of the World Bank.

The draft G8 Summit Declaration argues that if global average temperatures
are allowed to rise beyond 2 degrees C the risks from climate change will
become unmanageable and that avoiding this increase in temperature will
require global greenhouse gas emissions to peak within the next 10 to 15
years, followed by substantial global emissions reductions of around 50% by
2050 compared to 1990 levels. If adopted at the G8 Summit in Heiligendamm in
June, this would be the first time that G8 leaders have jointly acknowledged
these important scientific conclusions.

Yet despite acknowledging the urgent need for action, the draft Summit
Declaration makes no mention of what the Stern Review Report on the
Economics of Climate Change recently called the most obvious of the many
policies that distort the market in favor of fossil fuels: the more than
$250bn a year in direct and indirect subsidies to oil and other fossil
fuels.

If G8 leaders want the World Bank and other international financial
institutions to play a leading role in the fight against climate change,
they need to demand that these institutions stop using public money to
bankroll the oil industry. said Saul. Its outrageous that we are funneling
billions of dollars worth of aid money into the pockets of oil companies
instead of using that money to fight energy poverty and kick-start a new
energy revolution.

[halva]

AEROSOL SPRAYING WILL KILL POLITICIANS, TOO
http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd263.htm

By: Devvy
April 16, 2007

© 2007 - NewsWithViews.com

My last column on aerosol spraying brought thousands, not hundreds, but thousands of e-mails from people wanting to give their story about the spraying going on in their area and the steady decline in their health. It literally was overwhelming. It's also world wide as a respectable number of e-mails came from Australia, Great Britain, Canada and other countries which are experiencing the same phenom as we are all across America. Not everyone agrees with the conclusions reached by many qualified scientists, doctors and researchers: our government is spraying the skies of America, making millions of Americans sick, silently killing and creating an environmental disaster that will make the MTBE mess seem like child's play. For those who choose to believe what we're seeing is harmless, you do so at your own risk.

I have written on this critical issue before, including an overview of what happened when Rosalind Peterson and I had a meetings in Sacramento, California, several years ago with my state reps's office flunky. Nothing ever came of our request for testing and the situation in Rosalind's area (Mendocino County) continues to deteriorate at an accelerated rate. The links at the bottom of this column are important and I include them in my columns so Americans can research for themselves. There is a tremendous amount of garbage on the Internet, so I try to provide the most credible and important data/resources possible. I know time is an issue, but the issue of aerosol spraying is literally a matter of life and death.

Many who contacted me took issue with my use of the word contrail v chemtrail. Rosalind has supplied me with her response to a Discovery Channel presentation on this issue regarding the use of the word contrail v chemtrail; Rosalind was a guest (see her full and complete rebuttal here):

"Please note that the Best Evidence Producer and I spoke about the use of the word ‘chemtrail’ in this program. I made it clear that the use of this word marginalizes those that use it because there is no clear definition of the word. The United States Air Forces notes that the word ‘chemtrail’ is a hoax on their web site and writes letters, upon the request of U.S. elected officials like California U.S. Senator Diane Feinstein, to inform the public in writing, that the word ‘chemtrail’ is a hoax. Therefore, Senator Feinstein, and other elected officials, are given ‘a pass’ and don't have to answer our real questions about what has happened to our once clear, deep blue skies and how atmospheric heating and testing programs are impacting our environment, climate, and possibly human health.

"Throughout the ‘narrated text’ of the entire program I was linked repeatedly to the ‘straw man’, argument phrase ‘chemtrail believers’ giving the impression that I believe in some ‘conspiracy theory’ with regard to persistent jet contrails. I was careful to refer to official government documents describing NASA’s atmospheric heating and testing programs. I also referred to the same persistent jet contrails, the public has been seeing not only in the United States but also around the world, which NASA has been studying. There are many public government documents about current weather modification programs, and other ongoing experimental atmospheric testing and heating programs. There are so many U.S. Government, private, university, and military programs going on in our skies, at this time, that it would be impossible to classify them all under the undefined word 'chemtrail.'"

If you click here, Rosalind provides a point by point rebuttal to the producer of this particular program, "Chemtrails Contrails." Rosalind was bushwhacked and called her appearance the old "bait and switch."

Next, we have the issue of the honey bees disappearing across this country that has a whole lot of scientists very worried. No doubt the King of Loony Tunes, Al Gore, will come out soon with a proclamation that global warming is the culprit. I believe the direct cause is the aerosol spraying of our skies for more than ten years with a contributing factor being GM (genetically modified) crops. I've mentioned this in my previous columns and I'll say it again here: When Jodi Waters first raised the issue of MTBE in gasoline and how destructive it is to human life and the environment, she was pilloried and excoriated by the controlled media. Several years down the road and two huge rallies at the state capitol in Sacramento (I was at both), Jodi's findings and allegations proved to be 100% right, the MTBE is gone, the clean up is still going on (BILLIONS of dollars) and people are still dying slow deaths from water contamination.

The media was wrong. Jodi was right.

The hired guns (experts) for the state and feds were wrong. Jodi was right. Big money was at stake for the oil companies and they didn't care who died for the bottom line.

The "experts" finally admitted Jodi was right and while the political whores in the California State Legislature, and that includes former Gov. Pete Wilson, tried to give Jodi the run around and destroy her credibility, people died from MTBE poisoning of their public water supply the state said was safe. We can't afford for the "experts" to be wrong again. Look at the massive increase in pediatric leukemia, asthma attacks as well as development of asthma, lung cancer and other respiratory problems being recorded in these big metropolitan cities where constant aerosol spraying has been going on for years. I'm betting that if someone did a comparison study to the days of spraying and the increase in ER visits for the aforementioned, you would find a match up. This not only has increased the cost of medical treatment, but huge burdens to the state when the patient is on public assistance as well as Medicare because the yound and the elderly are hit the hardest.

I submit to you that the issue of aerosol spraying is the same as the MBTE disaster. Not a single public servant anywhere has come forward - despite all the evidence, i.e., water readings which show huge spikes in aluminum and barium as well as other deadly chemicals and said, "Wait a minute. There's something very wrong going on here. We need to get the health department and water official involved and find out what this is all about." Members of the state legislatures need to understand that they are also breathing this dangerous gunk and it is killing them the same as the rest of us. Members of the state legislatures need to understand that their children and loved ones are breathing this dangerous gunk being sprayed, our environment is being attacked and if not stopped, the disappearing honey bees will make the rest pale in comparison.

[halva]

I'm not going to rehash what I've already written, but I interviewed a former California State Fish & Wildlife biologist up in Mendocino County a few years ago; Allan was referred to me by Rosalind. This man, now retired, is not some bug-eyed conspiracy wacko. He worked in his capacity for 34 years and he told me that the spraying was killing the trees and crops; the sun could not get through the layers of this stuff and the destruction down the road a few years will be awesome. He also told me that in all his years in his official capacity - never had he been so stonewalled in his efforts to get answers on the issue of aerosol spraying. That alone should tell people someone is hiding something.

As Rosalind says in her response to the Discovery Channel: we don't know who is doing this aerosol spraying, although we can guess. The planes spraying right over my area are flying fairly low compared to the ones that flew over Sacramento. These are huge, white cargo type planes, not commercial jets. Most of us believe they are Air Force planes. There has been no spraying over Big Spring, Texas where I live since March 7th. We've had persistent winds, rain and some snow, so the planes have not been here and I have not had to suffer through the spraying. I am fully aware that state legislators get approached by constituents all the time and that there are nut cases out there, but the aerosol spraying issue isn't one of them. I would ask any elected public official to go to THIS SITE and read some of the comments from people like Dr. Leonard Horowitz, who is eminently qualified to speak on the subject; I have read his books, AIDS, Ebola and Emerging Viruses and Death in the Air and highly recommend them.



Millions of Americans are aware of this aerosol spraying, yet not one single member of Congress nor any agency of the federal government will answer our questions:

Who is doing this spraying?
Who authorized this spraying of dangerous
chemicals over our skies?

What is the purpose of spraying these dangerous chemicals raining down on humans, animals and the environment?


A large number of our state legislatures are going to go out of session soon. I would ask scientists and doctors who know what's going on and fully understand the health problems becoming an epidemic because of this aerosol spraying: Get together in a group and get to your state house to see your state senator and representative. Take the best information you have, explain to your senator and rep that what's happening with this spraying is a major disaster well underway and we the people have the right to know who is spraying and why. Tell your state senator and rep that they have the power to demand from the federal government the answers to our questions above. We've got to break this log jam of silence and stop this spraying before the cost in human suffering, death and environmental meltdown reaches a point of no return mark. The disappearing honey bees should be a HUGE wake up call for the state legislatures. Ask then to act now and demand answers from the Bush Administration.

Important research material:

1. Aerosol Crimes 1st Edition - Excellent video by Clifford Carnicom.
2. The Methodic Demise of Natural Earth by Dr. Michael Castle
3. Scientists fear unusual weather behind massive seabird die-off
4. Chemtrails Data Page


5. Portland Oregon Weather Modification Forum November 4, 2006
6, Agriculture alert
7, Night Clouds - NASA experiments
8, SICKENING: Chemtrail Sunscreen Taught In US Schools
9, FYI: Goodbye Chemtrails, Hello Blue Skies!
10, Publications (NASA)
11, Aviation and the Global Atmosphere
12, Aerosol operation crimes & cover up
13, Rosalind's site: California Skywatch

14, Mysterious collapse of honeybee populations threatens national food supply
15, Honey bees in US facing extinction
16, The Silence of the Bees
17, Are GM Crops Killing Bees?
18, Are mobile phones wiping out bees?
19, The Future of Food (DVD)
20, Seeds of Deception (Book)

© 2007 - NewsWithViews.com - All Rights Reserved

[halva]

Global Warming report – Keeping you guessing!
Ian Brockwell
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=23260

Ian Brockwell is the creator of Profindsearch.com and interests include writing, teaching, politics, climate change, UFO reports, businesses of all descriptions, medicine and generally trying to enjoy life.

Profindsearch is a very small search engine, which hopes to be a Google one day! (We can all dream)


Ian Brockwell
April 2, 2007
After many long years of debate, most people have finally accepted that Global Warming does indeed exist. However, the question of how serious the problem will become and the cause of this climatic change, remains uncertain. The U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) which is supposed to consist of the most brilliant scientific minds on the subject of Global Warming, have stated that humans are to blame for climate change. Unfortunately, they are not 100 percent certain of this, but say there is more than a 90 percent chance that they are right. Another group of scientists have challenged this idea and claim that it is a natural shift in the Sun's heat that is responsible, and even go as far as to say that the rising temperatures have slowed down over the last decade!

The argument on what causes Global Warming seems to be a two horse race, according to the experts, it is either CO² emissions produced by man, or increased solar activity caused by the Sun. Whilst these ideas and others could certainly be guilty of contributing to the problem, there is perhaps another possibility that is worth considering, but because it falls outside of most scientists limitations, it is treated as a “non-runner”. If we must accept guesses from those who should know, perhaps we can speculate on an idea that deserves a little more respect?

Some 250 million years ago, our planet experienced a climatic change that saw temperatures and sea levels rise well beyond those seen at present. Although the accuracy of records this far back can not be guaranteed, the change appeared to take place over a relatively short period of time, just as they seem to be doing at the moment, with the most noticeable increases occurring in the last 30 years or so.

It is interesting to note that the solar system also takes 250 million years to travel around our galaxy, and one can not help but wonder that maybe this area of the galaxy is creating the increased temperatures, just as it may have done the last time we passed this location.

This theory could be supported by the fact that other planets in our system are also being affected by rising temperatures, and whilst the Sun is capable of doing this, Pluto, our most distant planet, seems to suggest it is not.

Observations of Pluto in July 2002 revealed that this planet was affected in much the same way as the others, yet was moving further away from the Sun at the time. Surely, under such circumstances, Pluto should have been affected to a lesser degree?

Cosmic Rays (or microwaves) exist throughout the universe and are believed to be the after effects of the “Big Bang”, and although the levels are usually low and harmless, scientists have discovered that some regions of the universe contain areas that are much higher and potentially more dangerous.

As we are all aware, the microwaves used in our household microwave oven are deflected by metal, especially aluminium (aluminium foil). It therefore makes sense that any attempt to block such waves would likely require this particular metal.

It is perhaps no coincidence that a chemical being sprayed into the sky over most parts of the USA (and some other countries), contain compounds that are aluminium based. The US government denies they are involved in such a project, but thousands of people have seen it happening and samples of the “Chemtrails”, as they are called, have been taken and examined.

The chemicals are deposited into the sky by jets, and they leave trails that resemble those left by planes when flying at certain altitudes. The trails that we are used to seeing, which are caused by condensation, are called “contrails”. However, those that contain the chemicals are named “Chemtrails”.

Contrails normally vanish after a short time, but Chemtrails remain for much longer. Witnesses have watched planes produce criss-cross lines of Chemtrails across the sky, and very quickly a clear blue sky becomes completely covered in cloud.


Those living in the areas sprayed with these chemicals have suffered problems with their health. Many believe that the increase in Alzheimer’s disease cases in the US (10% higher since 2002) may be as a result of Chemtrails. According to medical reports, Alzheimer’s disease is affected by the metal compounds that can be found in Chemtrails.

The US government maintains that the lines seen in the skies are nothing more than “contrails”, and any chemicals found are simply those present in the fuel being used. But as usual, the American public is expected to take the governments word for this, as they won’t allow an investigation, and this seems to be the policy of most governments nowadays (but especially the US government). You are either labeled a conspiracy theorist if you question such things (or maybe unpatriotic), or are told the information can not be released on the grounds of National Security. In short, you must accept whatever reason that is given, by the leaders YOU voted into power.

Chemtrails seemed to appear shortly after the warming on other planets was noticed, and we can only assume that they are some kind of experiment designed to block some or all of the cosmic rays.

But why would the US keep a project like this, which is costing billions of dollars, a secret? Would the public reject such a project if they knew it was for their protection?

Could it be that some scientists have already discovered that our planet (and solar system) has entered a dangerous area that will produce a repeat of the climate we experienced 250 million years ago?

Maybe this would explain why the possible connection between Global Warming and Chemtrails seems to have little exposure on the internet, and at times almost appears to be “censored”. Perhaps the government realizes that news of such a catastrophic event would create mass panic if the public were informed, an event that almost destroyed all life on the planet last time and was called the “great dying”.

If this is to be our fate, there is very little we can do to prevent it, and perhaps our efforts should be more focused on our future survival. With sea levels that could rise by as much as 100 meters in the not too distant future (as it did 100 million years ago), the planet would very quickly run out of space and resources to support its current population of 6.5 billion people.

In my book “Global Warming – The Final Solution” I have explored this possibility and believe that special “zones” would need to be created to deal with this problem. Unfortunately, as only a very small percentage of the people can be placed on these zones, a selection process would be required. Those most likely to be selected for a chance of surviving such a global catastrophe would almost certainly need to possess the skills most necessary for this new life. Age would also be an important consideration as resources would be too scarce to allow anyone on the zone who could not make a valuable contribution.

Of course, with such a small number receiving an opportunity to live on these places, a much larger group will be left on the “outside” to fend for themselves. As conditions worsen, the desire to live on a zone will increase, and providing good protection/security for these special areas will be essential.

No one can accurately predict how our planet will be affected, or guess the sea and temperature levels in the next 10-20 years (or sooner). Should governments consider the “zone” option, it would be wise to begin such a project as soon as possible, as the planning and time required to put this into effect could be in the region of 7-10 years.

We can of course hope that our climate stabilizes soon and returns to normal, but the risk of waiting too long could prove costly in terms of lives lost. This may not worry our leaders, as they probably have special places reserved already, but what about the rest of us? Maybe it is time to stop believing all we hear from governments, who have shown us they can’t be trusted, and start to demand answers.

[kola]

halva,

do you support the idea of blocking sunlight to reduce global warming?

what do you think is causing "abnormal" looking contrails which started approx in 1998-1999?

kola

[halva]

No I don't.

I have adopted my positions in response to the idea that I have to prove that chemtrails exist. I think my strategy is better than Footsoldier's strategy of "confining ourselves to what we can prove".

The onus of proof is on the plaintiff. If I am not the plaintiff, i.e. if I am not complaining about chemtrails, I do not have to prove that they exist.

I think that the "abonormal looking contrails" are part of a deliberate spraying programmes, or a number of programmes.

[kola]

halva,

I didn't ask you to prove chemtrails exist. (maybe it is the terminology that gets in the way).

so then, lets work around that:

What do you call the spraying operation that appears to resemble abnormal contrails?

Do you think the spraying operation is a health and enviromental hazard?

What compositional material (do you believe) is being dispersed by aircrafts in this spraying operation that is appearing to dim our sunlight?

What "other programs" are you talking about?

kola

[halva]

halva,

I didn't ask you to prove chemtrails exist. (maybe it is the terminology that gets in the way).

so then, lets work around that:

What do you call the spraying operation that appears to resemble abnormal contrails?

Do you think the spraying operation is a health and enviromental hazard?

What compositional material (do you believe) is being dispersed by aircrafts in this spraying operation that is appearing to dim our sunlight?

What "other programs" are you talking about?

kola

I didn't say that YOU asked me to prove that chemtrails exist. I was explaining to you how I reached my present outlook, which you, like the Megasprayer people and Jeff Reynolds have got the idea amounts to advocating pollution. (I don 't know if Chem 11 and Big Bunny really believe this!) It was the same way that Footsoldier reached HER positions, i.e. in response to the attacks of the debunkers.

I am explaining to you how I have reached my present position of telling the debunkers that it is up to them to prove that chemtrails DON'T exist, not up to me to prove that chemtrails exist, They, not I, are complaining, so the burden of proof is on them, not on me.

I use the name chemtrails, mostly, though it doesn't translate well into Greek. Sometimes I say aerosol spraying. Sometimes I use the term geoengineering, because the non-military programmes, if these distinctions can still be made, may be less difficult to deal with politically insofar as it is easier for us to insist that our rights as citizens be respected.

On all the substantial scientific questions I more or less take my lead from Rosalind Peterson, so this would include adopting the view that aluminium and barium are probably being sprayed. So yes, I would say that it is very likely that this spraying is having the damaging consequences that Rosalind Peterson and others claim.

The "other programs" I am talking about are the military-orientated programs, including HAARP.

If you want to know how I can be against chemtrails and not be complaining to my government about it, my answer to this is that here in Europe we are constructing a new state and a new constitution. Our political institutions are unfinished. So rather than trying to petition the old political institutions, the media and the governments that have been ordered to act as if chemtrails don't exist, we simply go about building the new political institutions that will have recognition of reality built in to them from the beginning.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Halvar tried to market the pollution last year, but got busted on it.

[dewey189]

Halvar....tThis may sound like a stupid question but is Halva the same person as Halvar?

[Jeff Reynolds]

This may sound like a stupid question but is Halva the same person as Halvar?

Hi Dewey, yeah, that's my name for the disinfo creep.

[halva]

No, they are not. Halvar is the name of the figment of Jeff Reynolds' imagination who is responsible for a number of misdeeds. I don't like the guy at all.

[Jeff Reynolds]

On PBS last night, there was a show on solar power. In Germany in about 13 years they are on pace to have 30% of their energy needs from solar power. Maybe part of the chemtrail program is to promote global dimming and make it more difficult for real solutions like solar power to be implemented en masse.

[halva]

Whether or not that is a "plan" it certainly seems that aerosol spraying does diminish the effectiveness of solar energy. About the only good thing Yaak ever seems to have done in his life was getting some feedback on that. For what purpose I don't know.

[kola]

halva,, thanks for answering my questions.

but do not get chummy with yaak because of his solar power comments.

poor ed is in desperate need of a friend right now

and his rump-ranger buddy Jay is busy pickin onions.

kola

[jayreynolds]

On PBS last night, there was a show on solar power. In Germany in about 13 years they are on pace to have 30% of their energy needs from solar power. Maybe part of the chemtrail program is to promote global dimming and make it more difficult for real solutions like solar power to be implemented en masse.
Not correct.
The show stated that Germany hopes to produce 30% of their needs from renewable sources, which include biofuels, biomass, hydroelectric, wind and solar power.

I installed a solar powered water pump system on my farm more than a decade ago.

I store the solar-pumped water in an elevated tank for later use.

Norway already derives 90% of their power needs from renewables, so the news from Germany isn't that big.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Not correct.
The show stated that Germany hopes to produce 30% of their needs from renewable sources, which include biofuels, biomass, hydroelectric, wind and solar power.

I installed a solar powered water pump system on my farm more than a decade ago.

I store the solar-pumped water in an elevated tank for later use.

Norway already derives 90% of their power needs from renewables, so the news from Germany isn't that big.

According to the show, the goal was 20%, but they are ahead of schedule, so the number is now up to 30.

I disagree that this isn't a big story. Or if one looks at it your way, perhaps the big news is why is the US stuck at 1%.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Jay Reynolds is watching PBS shows? He sure is quick to always have a Karl Rovish, Netvocate type response. Jay, in a way if you're not a disinfo agent, it is so sad that you keep denying that the skies look so different since around 1998 due to aircraft emissions.

That's the elephant in your living room.

[halva]

Watching television and arguing here with Jay Reynolds is your future, mate.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Watching television and arguing here with Jay Reynolds is your future, mate.

Halvar is a troll.

[jayreynolds]

Jay Reynolds is watching PBS shows? He sure is quick to always have a Karl Rovish, Netvocate type response. Jay, in a way if you're not a disinfo agent, it is so sad that you keep denying that the skies look so different since around 1998 due to aircraft emissions.

That's the elephant in your living room.

It's good to see you coming around from claiming that "only military jets are spraying" to just complaining about aircraft emissions(contrails).

[halva]

A film made on 18th March 2007 on the occasion of the screening in Aigina, Greece, of the Sofia Smallstorm 9/11 video, describing the Aigina Municipal Council's 2003 chemtrails initiative and its continuation into the present. With interviews. The film aims at promoting Aigina's credentials as a focus for "civil society" in the European Union.
www.enouranois.gr/video/monoagglikoteliko.wmv

[halva]

It is such a relief to be able to relax, even if only temporarily, from being a cop and maybe get around to learning a few things.

[dewey189]

A film made on 18th March 2007 on the occasion of the screening in Aigina, Greece, of the Sofia Smallstorm 9/11 video, describing the Aigina Municipal Council's 2003 chemtrails initiative and its continuation into the present. With interviews. The film aims at promoting Aigina's credentials as a focus for "civil society" in the European Union.
www.enouranois.gr/video/monoagglikoteliko.wmvBefore I download it, can you tell me if it's in Greek or English?

[halva]

Both. The Greek version has Greek subtitles and the English version English subtitles. When people speak in Greek it is translated in the English version. The version I have provided the link to above is the English version.

[halva]

Two Greek parliamentarians have brought up the chemtrails issue in parliament and their party is having a conference this weekend on its European policy.

Their party is the Synaspismos (Coalition of the Left):
http://www.syn.gr/en/profile.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_the_Left%2C_of_Movements_and_Ecology

Their politics is by no means perfect and would get on the nerves of conservatives. But they are the only ones to have touched the chemtrails issue and they certainly haven't taken it very far. They are absolute beginners.

[halva]

The two parliamentarians are Fotis Kouvelis and Asimina Xirotiri. Kouvelis lives in Athens and Xirotiri in Thessaloniki. Kouvelis' question is on the official Synaspismos site in Greek. I have translated it into English.

http://www.enouranois.gr/english/political/kouvelis.htm

This is Kouvelis' parliamentary website
http://www.parliament.gr/english/synthesh/mp.asp?MPID=574

It would be good for Americans to write to him on the chemtrails issue.