It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature

[whitemajikman]

Where are you Jay Jay......

you have a lot of explaining to do ......

and for all you lurkers......please feel free to google WEATHER MODIFICATION PL

WMM

[whitemajikman]

Comprehensive Reply

by

Arthur L. Rangno and Peter V. Hobbs

Cloud and Aerosol Research Group, Department of Atmospheric Sciences,

University of Washington, Seattle, Washington 98195-1640

to

'Comments on "A New Look At The Israeli Cloud Seeding Experiments"' by D. Rosenfeld*


*Rosenfeld's Comments appeared in J. Appl. Meteor., 36, 260-271, 1997.
Rangno and Hobbs' brief Reply was in the same issue (J. Appl. Meteor., 36, 272-276).


NOTE ON THE BACKGROUND TO THIS COMPREHENSIVE REPLY

The Israeli cloud seeding experiments hold a unique place in meteorology, because they have been widely viewed as one of the very few (perhaps the only) demonstration that precipitation on the ground can be significantly modified by artificial seeding.

In 1995 we published a critique of the Israeli cloud seeding experiments (Rangno and Hobbs 1995). Subsequently, D. Rosenfeld, a former student of the late Abraham Gagin (a leader of the Israeli experiments), who is continuing the work of his mentor, submitted for publication in the Journal of Applied Meteorology extensive Comments on our critique (Rosenfeld 1997). We prepared a comprehensive Reply to Rosenfeld's Comments. However, at the request and advice of the Editor of the Journal (R. Koenig), we published a considerably abbreviated Reply (Rangno and Hobbs 1997). In the first paragraph of that abbreviated Reply, we noted that we would make available our detailed rebuttal to Rosenfeld's Comments; the present report is that rebuttal.

Discussions of the pros and cons of the Israeli experiments, involving as they do both physical and statistical arguments and assessments of the relative roles of natural meteorological processes and artificially-induced effects, are necessarily detailed, often lengthy, and not always conclusive. However, as in a good detective story, attention to detail has its rewards. In carrying out our studies of cloud seeding over many years, we have certainly learned the wisdom of Richard Feynman's philosophy, as summarized by Gleick (1992): "He believed in the primacy of doubt; not as a blemish upon our ability to know but as the essence of knowing."
Peter V. Hobbs
Arthur L. Rangno


http://cargsun2.atmos.washington.edu/~debbie/CloudSeeding/CompReply.html

WMM

[whitemajikman]

doi: 10.1175/1520-0450(1995)034<2400:AROTFO>2.0.CO;2
Journal of Applied Meteorology: Vol. 34, No. 11, pp. 2400–2405.

A Reexamination of the Formation of Exhaust Condensation Trails by Jet Aircraft
Harvey M. Hanson

Department of Physics, Wright State University, Dayton, Ohio
Douglas M. Hanson

Air Force Global Weather Central, Offutt Air Force Base, Omaha, Nebraska

(Manuscript received January 20, 1995, in final form May 15, 1995)

ABSTRACT

With the end of World War II, it became apparent that a study should be undertaken to identify the factors controlling the production of aircraft condensation trails (contrails). This early work provided a theoretical prediction of Te, the critical temperature at which the values of the relative humidity and pressure are such that the formation of the contrail phenomenon will occur. As empirical data were obtained, the general agreement at increased altitude was not precise and several studies were made to obtain both theoretical and empirical fits that would provide a “yes/no” decision. These modifications did allow a better decision for the formation of contrails but were found to be increasingly inaccurate at greater altitudes.

This study provides an improved algorithm that yields a theoretical prediction that is in general agreement with the available empirical data at all altitudes. It demonstrates that there is a need for additional effort in the identification and precision of relative humidity and pressure that are input to this computation.


http://ams.allenpress.com/amsonline/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1175%2F1520-0450(1995)034%3C2400:AROTFO%3E2.0.CO%3B2

WMM

[jayreynolds]

Jay ......May I remind You
I Never Gave You A Date that I Would Post My Finding's
True, you said you would NEVER post them.

No, wait, you said:

ALL ONE MUST REALLY DO IS CROSS REFERENCE THE SIGHTINGS WITH THE CONDITION OF THE OZONE LAYER OVER THAT GEOGRAPHICAL AREA AT THE TIME OF THE SIGHTINGS

THANK YOU BOOMER FOR YOUR SUPPORT AND I DO INTEND TO BACK UP EVERYTHING I AM SAYING HERE WITH EVIDENCE EVERYONE CAN VERIFY
As Soon as I Have All the Facts SO WILL EVERYONE ELSE I PROMISE YOU ALL THAT
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums...postcount=7154m

Originally Posted by whiteyboy
I WILL.....BACK IT UP
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums...&postcount=7155
Still waiting for whitey...............

Still getting the typical chest-beating rhetoric, devoid of substance:
http://worldzone.net/science/reality2u30/persons.html

[whitemajikman]

True, you said you would NEVER post them.

No, wait, you said:



Still waiting for whitey...............

Still getting the typical chest-beating rhetoric, devoid of substance:
http://worldzone.net/science/reality2u30/persons.html

Impatient huh......?

too bad......

get used to it......

you don't control anything......

WMM

[jayreynolds]

If you want to 'play chemmie', whiteyboy, you better get used to getting debunked.
Here is a good example:
https://www.villagesoup.com/commletters/Letters.cfm?topicid=4470

[whitemajikman]

If you want to 'play chemmie', whiteyboy, you better get used to getting debunked.
Here is a good example:
https://www.villagesoup.com/commletters/Letters.cfm?topicid=4470

Oh really Jay.......

So Far You Have Done no debunking.....

in fact lets see you debunk the 3 articles I posted yesterday for starters,,,,,,

Admit it Jay.......your a washed up control freak who likes to manipulate people.......

and thats about it......

even your website is full of holes.....

Not to mention your original reason for debunking chemtrails in the first place...........

WMM

[halva]

What was his reason for debunking chemtrails in the first place, WMM.

It seems to me that it all started out as some kind of turf battle between militia-type American 'patriots'.

[jayreynolds]

What was his reason for debunking chemtrails in the first place, WMM.

It seems to me that it all started out as some kind of turf battle between militia-type American 'patriots'.

PREFACE


The article below describes the results from my investigation into the current controversy over allegations that contrails contain substances harmful to humans and the environment. My investigationbegan two years ago and is continuing. It is the distillation of many hours of research and is based on facts and logical analysis from many sources, fully documented and sourced.


I have made this effort in order to discover the truth, which I define as the real state of things that agrees with fact and reality. I understand that I will be attacked for my findings by those whose paradigms are based on beliefs rather than facts. Such is the fate of those who reveal truth which conflicts with other's beliefs.


Reality is often obscured when emotion, rather than facts, are the basis for people's beliefs. I am willing to accept that many people will never believe what I conclude to be the truth. I do not expect anyone to trust my conclusions, but do expect all who value the truth to carefully examine what I have to present. I stand willing to alter my conclusions should new evidence become available.
-Jay Reynolds

Those Mysterious Lines in the Sky

This article originally appeared in hard copy form in the national
newspaper VERITAS, Issue 21, 3/1/99, page 1. It has been updated and formatted with web links. Reprinted with permission from the publisher.
http://worldzone.net/science/reality2u30/linesinsky.html

[jayreynolds]

in fact lets see you debunk the 3 articles I posted yesterday for starters

I thought the work by Cotton and Ragno was quite good. Those articles were about cloud seeding, and I read them several years ago. None of those scientists will ever give one hoot of support for "chemtrails", they know what ordinary contrails are.

Speaking of professionals, whatever happened to all those people you claimed to know like Jay Michaelson, Dr. Sarah Cornell, Gar Smith, William Thomas, or all those Canadian Air Force pilotsthat told you "the truth about 'chemtrails"? Where are all your friends and supporters, Whiteyboy? Why did you really drop names, whiteyboy? Certainly there was a method behind that madness. Did you really think that by telling such tales it would make things easier for you?

No, it was just some more corners you boxed yourself into. Some whiteyboymajic-lies you foolishly thought you could get away with.

But you claimed that "chemtrails" were for fixing ozone loss because of the danger of UV radiation. And you first promised us that we would see the results of your research, but now you've said you won't show it. So much the better for you, whiteyboy. If all you chemmies would debunk yourselves before you even get started, it would save me gobs of time.
Ha!

[whitemajikman]

I thought the work by Cotton and Ragno was quite good. Those articles were about cloud seeding, and I read them several years ago. None of those scientists will ever give one hoot of support for "chemtrails", they know what ordinary contrails are.

Speaking of professionals, whatever happened to all those people you claimed to know like Jay Michaelson, Dr. Sarah Cornell, Gar Smith, William Thomas, or all those Canadian Air Force pilotsthat told you "the truth about 'chemtrails"? Where are all your friends and supporters, Whiteyboy? Why did you really drop names, whiteyboy? Certainly there was a method behind that madness. Did you really think that by telling such tales it would make things easier for you?

No, it was just some more corners you boxed yourself into. Some whiteyboymajic-lies you foolishly thought you could get away with.

But you claimed that "chemtrails" were for fixing ozone loss because of the danger of UV radiation. And you first promised us that we would see the results of your research, but now you've said you won't show it. So much the better for you, whiteyboy. If all you chemmies would debunk yourselves before you even get started, it would save me gobs of time.
Ha!



Jay Read it AND WEEP......

http://www.nap.edu/books/0309090539/html/R1.html

It's 75 Pages and well worth the read.........

Also

Like I said before.....


Your Tactics and your motives are VERY Transparent.......

you have NO tact.....

AS USUAL.........

Thats a lot of Slander you managed to post ............

DID I HIT A NERVE JAY JAY.............?

WAIT TILL YOUR DONE READING THE DOCUMENT ...........JAY JAY


YOU YOURSELF ARE BECOMING A PARTICIPANT IN YOUR OWN DEBUNKTION.......

START DEBUNKING YOUR GOVERNMENT's ADMISSIONS AND PLANS AND IF YOU CAN'T YOU MUST CONCEED.........

It's that simple JAY...........

In fact I would like you to Debunk EVERY ARTICLE EVER WRITTEN ABOUT CHEMTRAILS........

I BET THERE ARE THOUSANDS THAT YOU CAN'T DEBUNK..................and MANY that you have tried to and failed......

BUT SO IS THE WAY OF JAY REYNOLDS ........

HE IS ALL ABOUT FALSE PROPAGANDA AND MAXIMUM EFFECT.......

IN ESSENCE A FRAUD.......

AIN'T THAT RIGHT JAY JAY.......

WMM

[halva]

What was his reason for debunking chemtrails in the first place, WMM.

It seems to me that it all started out as some kind of turf battle between militia-type American 'patriots'.

Why don't you address these questions, WMM, since you brought the matter up? For some reason Raynolds had to convince people in his own reference group that 'chemtrails' are fictitious.

[jayreynolds]

Jay Read it AND WEEP......
http://www.nap.edu/books/0309090539/html/R1.html

he-he-he........
What an imbecile.

Sorry for you, whitey-boy. the document you link to above already debunks what your people have been falsely claiming about weather modification. That fact makes it obvious that you haven't read the document yourself.

The link says that US weather modification reserach has been on the decline for twenty years, that the only modification proven effective is fog dispersion at airports, and that lightning rods do work. It says that there has been no demonstrable scientific evidence that other efforts at weather modification are effective, and recommends against large scale experiments.


START DEBUNKING YOUR GOVERNMENT's ADMISSIONS AND PLANS AND IF YOU CAN'T YOU MUST CONCEED. In fact I would like you to Debunk EVERY ARTICLE EVER WRITTEN ABOUT CHEMTRAILS. I BET THERE ARE THOUSANDS THAT YOU CAN'T DEBUNK

Whitey, I've already debunked the whole lot of it. Most of it is unsupported speculative pseudoscience masquerading as fact. The parts that made claims to be fact-based turned out to be false, and like the above, much of it is contradictory, with one reference esentially debunking the other. It is full of people like yourself who are at minimum both gullible and ignorant, and at maximum pathological in prevarication.

As I said before, there is hardly ever anything new in "chemtrails", it is fading fast.

In the final analysis, I don't take orders from you as to what I debunk, and in your case the claims are so nebulous as to be irrelevant, and so devoid of substance that they are meaningless.

Essentially, you are playing a losing game and I am getting bored with it.

So if you want make it interesting enough to attract my or anyone else's attention you'll have to do much better than you have been doing.

I've got some strawberries to go pick.
bye

[whitemajikman]

he-he-he........
What an imbecile.

Sorry for you, whitey-boy. the document you link to above already debunks what your people have been falsely claiming about weather modification. That fact makes it obvious that you haven't read the document yourself.

The link says that US weather modification reserach has been on the decline for twenty years, that the only modification proven effective is fog dispersion at airports, and that lightning rods do work. It says that there has been no demonstrable scientific evidence that other efforts at weather modification are effective, and recommends against large scale experiments.



Whitey, I've already debunked the whole lot of it. Most of it is unsupported speculative pseudoscience masquerading as fact. The parts that made claims to be fact-based turned out to be false, and like the above, much of it is contradictory, with one reference esentially debunking the other. It is full of people like yourself who are at minimum both gullible and ignorant, and at maximum pathological in prevarication.

As I said before, there is hardly ever anything new in "chemtrails", it is fading fast.

In the final analysis, I don't take orders from you as to what I debunk, and in your case the claims are so nebulous as to be irrelevant, and so devoid of substance that they are meaningless.

Essentially, you are playing a losing game and I am getting bored with it.

So if you want make it interesting enough to attract my or anyone else's attention you'll have to do much better than you have been doing.

I've got some strawberries to go pick.
bye


Go Pick your Strawberries......

that way you don't have to face reality.............

What you failed to mention about the above link was.....

what your own Government said about aerosols......

Which is contrary to what you have said..........

that was my point ......in posting it........

also ....

the 3 other articles I posted previous ...you have never debunked.......

because you can't.......

those other 3 articles written by your own Government......prove beyond a reasonable doubt.......that your talking through your ass and that your motives are not pure........

unless you can debunk them ....

you lose......


you know it and I know it.....

so again .......take the safe route.......

go pick your strawberries......

LMAO

WMM

[halva]

OK, WMM. It seems you're only interested in talking to Raynolds, who says he's getting bored with talking to you, so it seems that you are about the only person not bored at the moment.

[Boomer Chick]

Boy, I leave for a few days and all heck breaks loose!

WMM, I found those precise articles (except one) including the Weather Modification and two others, and posted the Army weather mod. information all here and the Army one over at Mav's, too. Still and all, cloud seeding, cloud disruption, use of lasers, and satellite lasers is ongoing. I've pointed that out. The problem is: where is the proof and the link to so-called chemtrailing???This is still the missing link, still the definitive evidence we miss.

I've combed the internet, gone to scientific research sites of various universities, visited the Colorado universities quite often just attempting to find SOMETHING to connect. No smoking guns-- YET. Sorry, WMM, I just couldn't find it and as far as I've read of your posts, you haven't either. BUT, weather mod. is ongoing, obviously, just not in ways that involve the theory of protecting us from UV rays via fuels or spray tanks.

Jay, I'm surprised you didn't recognize 9/10s of the links WMM just offered as the ones I had posted before!

I'm tired, sick and tired, and I want to just live in peace. Thanks, Halva, for calling me motherly. I thought I was practicing the ethics of PEACE in the world, not some sort of small-minded motherliness. And "truth" is what appeals to the moderators, not me. I just transmitted it. Again, trying in your own pathetic way to take away the power of peace and the power of truth must bore everyone.... does me. GET A CLUE, would you? You were a pain in the butt, most of the time, why can't you just see it and change? Your writing skills belie your propensity to focus inappropriately on certain personalities... and generally you DID NOT contribute to any thorough kind of researching. You wouldn't even visit your local university specializing in atmospheric research.

You argued, you concentrated on Jay like you and FS are doing now, and you both know darn well what a waste of time it is.... especially to me.... I only expressed it to you umpteem thousand times! Get over it! Both of you!

Jay, you stay here. Do your thing and keep everyone to the fire! Avoid the personal stuff, and babe, I'm with ya!

Jay is a person, one person, not a member of an organized ops program.

So far my reading on what I missed has only included some very interesting and in depth articles posted by WMM on weather mod projects. Where's Halva's contributions? Where are FS's chemtrail contributions?

I WANT THE TRUTH !!!!! Not a bunch of pansy name-calling and revengeful attitudes!

WMM, you know I support your efforts.

Call Jay names all you want -- it doesn't help get to the truth of what really matters. GROW UP!

BC :mad:

[whitemajikman]

OK, WMM. It seems you're only interested in talking to Raynolds, who says he's getting bored with talking to you, so it seems that you are about the only person not bored at the moment.


Did You Ever Think Wayne....That Jay Isn't Bored......

He Just Knows That He Can't Debunk the 3 articles that prove his premise Wrong.....regarding aerosols and climate change.......

Thats Why He Has Shifted Gears......

If Jay Was Truly Bored He Wouldn't be playing Voyeur HERE and AT MAV"S.........

when I'm online......

p.s.

feel free to join in debunking JAY JAY......

With All Of The Knowledge You Possess since beginning this Journey......you should be able to No Problem.......

WMM

[whitemajikman]

Boy, I leave for a few days and all heck breaks loose!

WMM, I found those precise articles (except one) including the Weather Modification and two others, and posted the Army weather mod. information all here and the Army one over at Mav's, too. Still and all, cloud seeding, cloud disruption, use of lasers, and satellite lasers is ongoing. I've pointed that out. The problem is: where is the proof and the link to so-called chemtrailing???This is still the missing link, still the definitive evidence we miss.

I've combed the internet, gone to scientific research sites of various universities, visited the Colorado universities quite often just attempting to find SOMETHING to connect. No smoking guns-- YET. Sorry, WMM, I just couldn't find it and as far as I've read of your posts, you haven't either. BUT, weather mod. is ongoing, obviously, just not in ways that involve the theory of protecting us from UV rays via fuels or spray tanks.

Jay, I'm surprised you didn't recognize 9/10s of the links WMM just offered as the ones I had posted before!

I'm tired, sick and tired, and I want to just live in peace. Thanks, Halva, for calling me motherly. I thought I was practicing the ethics of PEACE in the world, not some sort of small-minded motherliness. And "truth" is what appeals to the moderators, not me. I just transmitted it. Again, trying in your own pathetic way to take away the power of peace and the power of truth must bore everyone.... does me. GET A CLUE, would you? You were a pain in the butt, most of the time, why can't you just see it and change? Your writing skills belie your propensity to focus inappropriately on certain personalities... and generally you DID NOT contribute to any thorough kind of researching. You wouldn't even visit your local university specializing in atmospheric research.

You argued, you concentrated on Jay like you and FS are doing now, and you both know darn well what a waste of time it is.... especially to me.... I only expressed it to you umpteem thousand times! Get over it! Both of you!

Jay, you stay here. Do your thing and keep everyone to the fire! Avoid the personal stuff, and babe, I'm with ya!

Jay is a person, one person, not a member of an organized ops program.

So far my reading on what I missed has only included some very interesting and in depth articles posted by WMM on weather mod projects. Where's Halva's contributions? Where are FS's chemtrail contributions?

I WANT THE TRUTH !!!!! Not a bunch of pansy name-calling and revengeful attitudes!

WMM, you know I support your efforts.

Call Jay names all you want -- it doesn't help get to the truth of what really matters. GROW UP!

BC :mad:


I know you support my efforts Boomer......

THANK-YOU......

WMM

[whitemajikman]

Why don't you address these questions, WMM, since you brought the matter up? For some reason Raynolds had to convince people in his own reference group that 'chemtrails' are fictitious.


Sorry Halva....

I missed this post last time around.....

The Problem with JAY REYNOLDS is That he TOO noticed the massive contrail increase.....in the beginning before his decline into madness..........

WMM

[halva]

Thanks WMM. But what happened then?

Why did he feel he had to take it on himself to tell people that all they were seeing was ice, as if this was something he knew??

Why was he interested in this subject?

As far as debunking him is concerned, I am going to follow BC's sense of priorities on that subject anyway. I am just curious to know about how this all started.

[whitemajikman]

Thanks WMM. But what happened then?

Why did he feel he had to take it on himself to tell people that all they were seeing was ice, as if this was something he knew??

Why was he interested in this subject?

As far as debunking him is concerned, I am going to follow BC's sense of priorities on that subject anyway. I am just curious to know about how this all started.


Maybe Jay Can Fill You In on his past associations with some people who are no longer among the living....

and what it meant to him.........


WMM

[Yaak]

The Problem with JAY REYNOLDS is That he TOO noticed the massive contrail increase.....
WMM
The massive contrail increase directly coincides with the dramatic increase in jet aircraft traffic.

I have observed this personally.

[jayreynolds]

completed surname removal through Dec. 2004.
More later.
Jay

[halva]

Bravo Bobo.

[hoot]

Ho-huum,you guys could start talking about Arianna's wetbacks; or something "social" like that .

[jayreynolds]

chemtrails are a hoax.
Get over it.
7275 replies and 88,038 page views couldn't change a thing.
Last word- The cheese stands alone.
Out,
Jay Reynolds
http://goodsky.homestead.com/files/

[halva]

The "debate" continued at
http://www.opendemocracy.net/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=179&threadID=44327&start=15&tstart=0

until Reynolds was finally silenced in the face of European indifference to his priorities.

[halva]

A year and a half ago Arianna Huffington wrote an article called 'The Pentagon Sounds the Alarm on Global Warming'. At the end of it she said: 'The Democratic nominee needs to remind the White House — and the American people: It’s not nice to fool with Mother Nature.'

At that time I also wrote: "There would be nothing wrong with a Democratic Party politician doing that, but it should not be ignored that there are by now very large numbers of Americans who realise that 'fooling with Mother Nature' is something currently proceeding on a gigantic, planetary, scale, with the blessings of not only of the Bush regime but also of many opponents of Bush who are genuinely concerned about global climate change and are supporters of 'geoengineering'."

James E. Hansen, the scientist who was first to introduce the realities of climate change to the United States congress, has written: "Natural regional climate fluctuations remain larger today than human-made effects such as global warming. But data show that we are at a point where human effects are competing with nature and the balance is shifting.

Ominously, the data show that human effects have been minimized by a Faustian bargain. Global warming effects have been mitigated by air pollutants that reduce the amount of sunlight reaching the earth's surface. This Faustian bargain has a time limit, and payment is now coming due.

Humans have enjoyed the fruits of the industrial revolution and avoided a large cost in climate change as aerosol cooling has mitigated greenhouse warming. Payment comes due when humanity realises that it cannot tolerate the further exponential growth of air pollution that would be needed for continued mitigation of global warming."

Today it seems that climate change, which in any case may well have been irredeemably adulterated through implication in continuing goodies-vs-baddies Cold War-type scenarios, is being vastly overshadowed by the more immediate and more tangible issue of Peak Oil.

[jayreynolds]

The "debate" continued at
http://www.opendemocracy.net/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=179&threadID=44327&start=15&tstart=0

until Reynolds was finally silenced in the face of European indifference to his priorities.

The real story at opendemocracy is that Wayne's subtle attempts at introducing the people there to the "chemtrails" hoax was countered by exposure of the fraud. He found no support whatsoever. The at opendemocracy is almost as dead as his own anyways.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/forums/forum.jspa?forumID=179

Wayne's world: "Activity within 7 days:(No Activity)"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ama_lahi/

[jayreynolds]

Global warming effects have been mitigated by air pollutants that reduce the amount of sunlight reaching the earth's surface. This Faustian bargain has a time limit, and payment is now coming due.

You are a few months behind, Wayne, or maybe it's just your propensity to ignore data which conflicts with your paradigms. Either way, the data shows that rather than your claimed "climate mitigation through chemtrails" hoax has been debunked.

Over the past fifteen years, earth's skies have gotten cleaner and brighter, NOT dimmer and darker as the promotional literature for your hoax has been suggesting during the same timeframe.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4520831.stm
How does it feel to be proven totally wrong, once again?

[halva]

The "debate" continued at
http://www.opendemocracy.net/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=179&threadID=44327&start=15&tstart=0

until Reynolds was finally silenced in the face of European indifference to his priorities.

Anyone wanting information on the post-Ama Lahi forum should send me a private e-mail.

[halva]

Over the past fifteen years, earth's skies have gotten cleaner and brighter, NOT dimmer and darker as the promotional literature for your hoax has been suggesting during the same timeframe.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4520831.stm
How does it feel to be proven totally wrong, once again?

This is not meant as a challenge to Reynolds to come back and continue arguing. If he has concluded that he has been wasting his and our time here, that is progress.

But note that if it is true that the earth's skies have been getting cleaner and brighter, this is interpretable, in our wonderful world, as a problem!!

Clearing smoke may trigger global warming rise
18:59 29 June 2005
Fred Pearce (http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7607)

Global warming looks set to be much worse than previously forecast, according to new research. Ironically, the crucial evidence is how little warming there has been so far.

Three top climate researchers claim that the greenhouse gases already in the atmosphere should have warmed the world more than they have. The reason they have not, they say, is that the warming is being masked by sun-blocking smoke, dust and other polluting particles put into the air by human activity.

But they warn that in future this protection will lessen due to controls on pollution. Their best guess is that, as the mask is removed, temperatures will warm by at least 6°C by 2100. That is substantially above the current predictions of 1.5 to 4.5°C.

“Such an enormous increase would be comparable to the temperature change from the previous ice age to the present,” says one of the researchers, Meinrat Andreae of the Max Planck Institute for Chemistry in Mainz, Germany. “It is so far outside the range covered by our experience and scientific understanding that we cannot with any confidence predict the consequences for the Earth.”

Cool estimate

The calculations assume a doubling of greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide (CO2) in the atmosphere by 2100 compared to pre-industrial levels.

Andreae and his two British colleagues, Peter Cox and Chris Jones, are leading authors from the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. These new findings are likely to be reflected in the IPCC’s next assessment of climate change science, scheduled for 2007.

The cooling effect of aerosols has been known for some time. But, says Andreae, past assessments have underestimated its influence. Because of this, they have also underestimated the sensitivity of the atmosphere to the warming effect of greenhouse gases.

The new modelling study finds that only high estimates of both aerosol cooling and greenhouse warming can explain the history of global temperatures over the past 50 years.

One foot on the gas

The problem for future climate is that the cooling aerosols only stay in the air for a few days, whereas the warming gases stick around for decades or centuries. So while the cooling effect is unlikely to grow much, the gases will accumulate and have an ever-bigger effect on global temperature.

The world, says Andreae, is “driving the climate with one foot on the gas and the other on the brake. When the brake comes off, it makes a hell of a difference".

The authors have added another previously unrecognised element to the temperature forecast - the effect of all this on nature and the natural carbon cycle.

Natural ecosystems are currently absorbing up to half of the CO2 that humans put into the atmosphere. Most climate models assume this will continue. But there is growing evidence that from about 2050, soils and forests will stop absorbing CO2 and start releasing it instead.

The authors calculate that this switch in the natural carbon cycle could accelerate the build-up of CO2 in the air by more than 50%, producing a total warming that “may be as high as 10°C” by 2100.

[halva]

Report from the G8 demonstrations (http://www.globefox.com/cacc/)

Campaign against Climate Change activists were up in Scotland for the G8, joining the 'Make Poverty History' March, with a climate message as well as other events like the march at Gleneagles, itself. Tens of thousandfs of leaflets for the International Day of Climate Protest on December 3rd were distributed.

At the 'G8Alternatives' conference our Honorary President, George Monbiot gave a rousing speach , in which he encouraged the enthusiastic crowd to join our December 3rd demo. Many attended our workshop afterwards and altogether the 3rd December event was put firmly on the map.

Meanwhile the G8 leaders themselves failed dismally to take any meaningful action on climate. The US had maintained an extremist position on denying the human contribution to climate change just so that their final abandonment of this position in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence should look like a real concession - and so provide a fig leaf for Tony Blair to cover up his failure to get any meaningful movement on climate from George Bush in return for his support for the US on Iraq. The US administration - and the fossil fuel lobby that has such a strong influence on it - knows that mere words cost it nothing: its previous involvment in the Kyoto process - which presupposed a concern with the contribution of man-made emissions to climate change - was something that George Bush had no difficulty on reneging on in 2001. The other G8 leaders in accepting the US position in their joint communique have become complicit in a failure to take meaningful action, that could cost millions, even billions, of lives. This makes our December 3rd International Day of Protest on Climate Change all the more relevant and necessary !

[Yaak]

The other G8 leaders in accepting the US position in their joint communique have become complicit in a failure to take meaningful action, that could cost millions, even billions, of lives.


Billions of lives?


Look at the pictures of the hypocrites carrying their pretty flags and banners, and wearing their finest polyester clothing, all made form oil.

I'm sure they all bicycled or walked to the rally.

[halva]

Yawn.

Should one react to the reactive?

[foot_soldier]

If we're going to have to share space here in the Science section with threads about Fendi bags I think it's reasonable to have the threads that are actually science-related on top.

[halva]

Global Warming Could Worsen U.S. Pollution: Report

Feb 19, 2005 — WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Global warming could stifle cleansing summer winds across parts of the northern United States over the next 50 years and worsen air pollution, U.S. researchers said on Saturday.

Further warming of the atmosphere, as is happening now, would block cold fronts bringing cooler, cleaner air from Canada and allow stagnant air and ozone pollution to build up over cities in the Northeast and Midwest, they predicted.

"The air just cooks," said Loretta Mickley of Harvard University's Division of Engineering and Applied Sciences. "The pollution accumulates, accumulates, accumulates, until a cold front comes in and the winds sweep it away."

Mickley and colleagues used a computer model, an approach commonly used by climate scientists to predict weather and climate changes.

She told a meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science that the model predicted a 20-percent decline in summer cold fronts out of Canada.

"If this model is correct, global warming would cause an increase in difficult days for those affected by ozone pollution, such as people suffering with respiratory illnesses like asthma and those doing physical labor or exercising outdoors," she said.

World temperatures have risen by an average of 1 degree Fahrenheit (0.6 degree Celsius) over the past century.

Earlier this week 141 nations signed the U.N. Kyoto Protocol aimed at cutting the so-called greenhouse gas emissions that fuel global warming.

It imposes caps on carbon dioxide emissions, mainly from burning fossil fuels in power plants, factories and cars, in 35 developed nations.

The United States, which produces the most pollution of any country, has refused to sign it.

The model used by Mickley and her colleagues incorporates things such as the sun's luminosity, topography of the planet, the distribution of the oceans, the pull of gravity and the tilt of the Earth's axis, as well as predicted warming.

They fed in gradually increased levels of greenhouse gases at rates projected by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. What they found surprised them.

"The answer lies in one of the basic forces that drive the Earth's weather — the temperature difference between the hot equator and the cold poles," Mickley said.

In the middle latitudes, low-pressure systems and accompanying cold fronts help redistribute heat by carrying warm air to the poles and replacing it with cool air. Warming slows that process down, Mickley's team found.

[halva]

Rather than starting a new thread I'll stay on this mother thread, because after all we're still talking about how to stop the bad guys from fooling with Mother Nature.

Jim Phelps has been telling me to lay off the politics but unfortunately politics is the question that has to be raised if we're talking about what to do next.

Here in the European Union a window of opportunity has been opened by the French and Dutch rejection of the 'European Constitution', meaning that the elite is now (at least temporarily and/or ostensibly) without a strategy for promoting European integration.

This leaves the ball in 'civil society's' court to articulate "What Europe we want"....

Developing the capacity to articulate 'What Europe we want' is synonymous with creating a political subject called 'The European People' and an entity called 'The European Nation'.

In the process of constructing the constitution of the United States over two hundred years ago, the original American confederacy set itself the task of doing what Europe is trying to do now.

Perhaps the generally accepted view is that the American Constitution was created and the American nation constructed, but according at least to former US vice-president (1825-32) John C. Calhoun, this is not what happened.

I have been reading Calhoun's 'Discourse on the Constitution and Government', and this is what he says:

(Union and Liberty, p.116)

"From all that has been stated, the inference follows, irresistibly, that the government is a federal, in contradistinction to a national, government - a government formed by the States ordained and established by the States and for the States - without any participation or agency whatever, on the part of the people, regarded in the aggregate as forming a nation; that it is throughout, in whole, and in every part, simply and purely federal - "the federal government of these States" - as is accurately and concisely expressed by General Washington, the organ of the convention, in his letter laying it before the old Congress - words carefully selected, and with a full and accurate knowledge of their import. There is, indeed, no such community, politically speaking, as the people of the United States, regarded in the light of, and as constituting one people or nation. There never has been any such, in any stage of their existence and, of course, they neither could, nor ever can exercise any agency - or have any participation, in the formation of our system of government, or in administration. In all its parts - including the federal as well as the separate State governments, it emanated from the same source - the people of the several States. The whole, taken together, form a federal community - a community composed of States united by a political compact - and not a nation composed of individuals united by what is called a social compact.'

If Calhoun is right, the process of building the European nation of individuals united by what is called a social compact is not something that can follow any already-existing American model.

If there are no such communities either as the people of Europe or as the people of the United States, what must happen is that the European and American nations must be built in parallel and simultaneously.

[jeaninecoxe]

Re: Post by Hilda Coxe on 5/17/2004

Please note that I have cut/pasted her original post below mine.....

Ha!! I am one at least two of Hilda's ex-daughters-in-law and I don't blame whomever the other daughter-in-law was that wouldn't let Hilda & Charlie have custody of their kids!! ANY CHILD would be better off with perfect strangers than in their care ANY DAY!!!!
I wouldn't EVER let them near my son (her step-grandson, which BTW she has not seen or tried to contact since he was 18months old... he's 14 yrs. now ) for anything!!
WAAH... she misses her grandchildren... she must not miss them too terribly... she has more that she has nothing to do with... like my son and D.'s other 2 daughters in Florida!!! I bet she never contacts them either (which honestly is probably just as well!! )
HILDA AND CHARLIE ARE NUTS!! You wouldn't believe what she did to my ex-husband, his older brother, and his younger sister when they were kids!! There should be NO STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS on GROSS CHILD ABUSE!! To give them another chance with more children would be WRONG and DANGEROUS for the kids!! If the Government ever lifts this statute of limitations ( currently it's 5 years after age of maturity, which is 18 ) you can guarantee I'll get D. and C. to haul them into court to pay for such abuse!!

WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMAN TODAY TO HAVE THIS STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS LIFTED IMMEDIATELY!!!

05-17-2004

jayreynolds
Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,515

Here's a family where the grandparents are "chemmies".

The grandparents have been removed from contact with the grandchildren because they were inculcating them into the cult.

Sounds to me like everybody loses in this case.

Stop promoting the "chemtrail" hoax, you are hurting people, even children and families.
========================
From: "Hilda Coxe" &lt;coxe2004@s...&gt;
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 2:03 pm
Subject: re: we were "fired" from caring for grandkids because we are Nuts!
HELLO,
I just wanted to let you know and the group that my daughter-in-law
convinced my son to let us go (my husband and I) because we kept talking about
chem-trails and taking pics.....Our hearts are broken because we will miss our 2
grandchildren.......She would rather have them in the care of strangers then
with their own grandparents...cause we are Nuts.
Flowermound is close to Dallas Fort Worth Airport...The chem trails have
been horrible there...We didn't want the kids exposed to it so we kept them
inside.
Also there was this white stuff like fuzzy stuff flying all over the air for
weeks........It would attach itself to everything outside of their
house.....when it did it attach itself it looked like webs everywhere......I
will miss my son and grandchildren but I won't back down and say that what I see
and know is Crazy my husband niether...Hilda and Charlie

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemt.../message/111332
__________________
Contrails, or 'Trails-CON?
A website reviewing the facts and the claims about the Contrails/Chemtrails controversy
by Jay Reynolds
http://worldzone.net/science/reality2u30/

[halva]

Internet forums are like video games: if you can't win at one level you can simplify the enemy and win at the level of your choosing.

[hoot]

PHEW JAY, you are really starting to stink!

[halva]

I'll tell you when I first came to the conclusion that Michael Ruppert is a proper representative of the genuine political opposition in the United States and that attempts to marginalize him are symptomatic of what is wrong with the functioning of the US polity:

When shortly after 9/11 Ruppert was delivering his address at Portland State University, Oregon, he touched on the question of an Israeli shipping agency that broke its lease in order to vacate its offices in one of the twin towers not very long before the attack.

Ruppert was not making rhetoric about 'the Jews' or even about 'the Israelis'. He had provided circumstantial evidence that the Israeli secret services or some other agency of that state that was 'in the know' had made it possible for Israeli citizens to avoid danger to themselves.

After this revelation Ruppert's rhetorical question was: "If they could do that to help their people, why couldn't we do the same to help our people?"

Only in a polity that is not functioning properly could the implications of this question be described as anti-Semitic, anti-Jewish or anti-Israeli.

What Ruppert was offering was not a condemnation of Israeli national consciousness but a condemnation of American lack of national consciousness. That is the proper position, in my view.

In the old days of Soviet diplomacy, the Soviets used to try to make a distinction between 'the American government' and 'the American people' (the former being bad, the latter good). This was futile politics. It never had credibility with more than a small minority of Americans.

But that is not because it was or is legitimate to equate 'the American government [the federal government in Washington] with the needs and demands of American citizens.

The alternative interpretation: that Americans lack national consciousness, is a more persuasive reading, and one which has roots in America's own political traditions.

[jayreynolds]

========================
From: "Hilda Coxe" &lt;coxe2004@s...&gt;
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 2:03 pm
Subject: re: we were "fired" from caring for grandkids because we are Nuts!
HELLO,
I just wanted to let you know and the group that my daughter-in-law
convinced my son to let us go (my husband and I) because we kept talking about
chem-trails and taking pics.....Our hearts are broken because we will miss our 2
grandchildren.......She would rather have them in the care of strangers then
with their own grandparents...cause we are Nuts.
Flowermound is close to Dallas Fort Worth Airport...The chem trails have
been horrible there...We didn't want the kids exposed to it so we kept them
inside.
Also there was this white stuff like fuzzy stuff flying all over the air for
weeks........It would attach itself to everything outside of their
house.....when it did it attach itself it looked like webs everywhere......I
will miss my son and grandchildren but I won't back down and say that what I see
and know is Crazy my husband niether...Hilda and Charlie

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemt.../message/111332
__________________
Contrails, or 'Trails-CON?
A website reviewing the facts and the claims about the Contrails/Chemtrails controversy
by Jay Reynolds
http://worldzone.net/science/reality2u30/

I think it's very sad, if true, that a silly hoax like "chemtrails' would have grandparents forcing their children to stay indoors because they see contrails in the sky. Children need to be out of doors as much as possible. The originators of the hoax probbaly never intended to have people getting divorced, mutilating themselves, becoming separated from children, hiding behind closed doors, or devoting hard-earned money chasing after their conundrum, but nevertheless all thise things have happened for nine years now. That is just one reason for ending the hoax.

Those responsible, who include 'footsoldier', 'halva', and many others need to carefully examine the results of what they have done and correct their mistakes. Simply slinking away from the fact that they have harmed people doesn't relieve them of responsibility, they need to take action to correct the wrongs they have done.

Jay

[halva]

Why don't you contact Bono and Bob Geldof, Raynolds, and organize a rock concert for the victims of the chemtrails hoax??

Pissing around on little forums like this is for losers. If you had any brains you would be up there with the REAL humanitarians.

[Et in Arcadia ego]

Pissing around on little forums like this is for losers.

Now that's what I consider to be a profound statement.

[jayreynolds]

Why don't you contact Bono and Bob Geldof, Raynolds, and organize a rock concert for the victims of the chemtrails hoax??.

So I really got to you, eh, Wayne?

[halva]

Now that's what I consider to be a profound statement.

You and Phelps were the ones who wanted Raynolds here again. What are you going to do with him now that you've got him??

[Et in Arcadia ego]

You and Phelps were the ones who wanted Raynolds here again. What are you going to do with him now that you've got him??

I still don't know where you get that from; as I said I have and have had no campaign to ressurect anyone, but you for some reason fail to understand that there's this law of balances where when you get an extreme crackpot like Jimbo you will encounter his extreme opposite, someone like Reynolds, who argues profusely for his own understanding of things, and calls it extreme reason.

As I said, I can appreciate listening to somoene's arguments against things I suspect I have observed, but I cannot abide someone who makes outlandish claims about their own place in the universe like Phelps has.

You don't have a problem with that, but I do. For some reason, you just refuse to realize that your position regarding Phelps is similar to saying, "What he says here is aceptable, but THAT isn't..". You asked in the 'drug' :roll: thread that what difference did it make whether or not he did those things, or something to that effect..

You cannot have it both ways. Either someone has credibility or they don't.

Reynolds has presented to me the foundations of his arguments against these discussions, and while I may not neccessarily be in a position at this point to agree with him I DO respect that he has explained his own position in clean and comprehensible terms.

Can you say the same about Jimbo? The guy is an absolute fruitcake, man..

And sadly, YOU look like a fruitcake backing him up..and I'm very sorry to say that.

As for myself, I have a visibility range of less than 5 miles in a city of less than 200,000 people. There's a PERPETUAL white haze that is ubiquitous in every direction inside and outside town with no discernable cause that can be observed. I have travelled outside town to a neigboring mountainside overlooking my city and seen this haze spreading in every direction, but I simply cannot say what it is. I cannot directly connect that to a spraying program of deliberate intent no matter what my suspicions tell me otherwise, because I lack EVIDENCE of such, and so do you. When one watches these contrails spread out & blanket the sky & looks down at this white-out on ground level, it's not hard to see a strong connection, but I haven't been able to find one no matter HOW hard I have tried.

I hate to say this, but if there's a spraying program in progress they've got a lock on the data and digital evidence behind it and no amount of forum argument is going to penetrate that if that indeed is the case. Translated in plain engrish this means that you would have found the smoking gun by now if they left it laying around to be found, which conclusively says nothing whatsoever. I have read scientific recommendations that metal particulates introduced in the atmosphere will increase planetery albedo as a means of mitigating Global Warming, but I have not seen anywhere that they are actually DOING it. I see persistent contrails dispersing into artificial Cirrus over me all the time, but I have no way of quantifying what the material dispersing actually IS. I have read that early on MANY people got sick, but there is no direct link to a spraying program. Because you get sick when the sun rises does not mean the sun made you ill. I say this full on recognizing that the last 4 years or so I have experienced a SHARP increase in pulmonary disorders as have many people I have observed.

I see things with my own eyes that bother the hell out of me, but I have not been able to reconcile that vision with documented admissions of a spraying program anywhere. This is troubling to me, and I know that we have shifty bastards in power, but the bottom line is if you can't prove it, you can't prove it.

When you have a situation where you are compelled to expose clandestine activities, the burden of proof is on YOU, the accuser, not those that deny it. Where is the irrefutable proof of these spraying activities on ALL the internet? Carnicom makes some excellent postulations, but has anyone independantly verified his findings? Because honestly, for the same reason I shredded Jimbo, if he doesn't have independant verification by a seperate entity, his claims are just that: claims.

So at this point, it's one of two things that are happening:

1 - these bastards are doing something nefarious that cannot be proven directly even after 7 years of kicking and screaming, or

2 - there is no spraying program.

This is a real Scylla & Charabdis for someone like yourself that has spent so much time and effort. I wish you could have more supporting evidence of a spraying activity than endorsing the rantings of a f*cking madman..

:?:

So, I apologize, halva, but if I'm saying anything at all here it's that your methods to date have simply not worked. I'm not saying it isn't happening, I'm saying that the routes that have been taken to authenticate it have failed. IF you are going to prove a clandestine spraying program is taking place, you are going to have to find different methods of aquiring data to prove it, because I sure as hell haven't found it myself & I have not been idle, I can tell you that much.

Aside from anecdotal observations such as what I have made and many others, there is no direct proof on the entire internet. I have scoured it repeatedly and there just isn't at this point.

Period.

So now what? It's almost coming down requiring faith to maintain, and I've seen where THAT gets people..I'm disgusted by the artificial Cirrus that smears all over the air above me, but how to prove that it's something beyond local/temporary saturation states? I see smoke, but I haven't found the fire.

Have you?

:-?

[Et in Arcadia ego]

*edited for useless hostility.

[halva]

Why have my comments sat unchallenged for over 9 hours?

One reason is that daytime in the USA is night-time in Greece. Another reason is that others are not interested in solving, or cannot solve, your existential problem.



Does no one have anything to say against what I have asserted? Will no one step forward and put me where I belong?


Perhaps Reynolds will.

[halva]

Look, Et in Arkadia Ego you are more than wasting your time hanging about here.

If you want advice on a strategy, the first thing to do is to get involved in the Climate Change movement:

http://www.globefox.com/cacc/globalclimatecampaign.html

Also try to work with the Peak Oil movement.

There are also other networks: the carfree, the aviation, but let's not talk about them here.

If you want to send me a private e-mail I'll tell you how to find our closed forum.

[Et in Arcadia ego]

Look, Et in Arkadia Ego you are more than wasting your time hanging about here.

I agree. It could be said that everyone else here is as well, but that's not for me to decide. The trouble with learning from experience is that the cost comes before the lesson.

I'll check out the link you gave.

cheers,
D

[jayreynolds]

Look, Et in Arkadia Ego you are more than wasting your time hanging about here. If you want advice on a strategy, send me a private e-mail I'll tell you how to find our closed forum.

Wayne, why would anyone wish for strategic advice from you?
You have never had a success in your miserable life.
Look how Wayne got involved in climate change, and killed a whole forum -dead-.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/forums/forum.jspa?forumID=179
Look how Wayne's own forum has become a lifeless 'dead-zone'
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ama_lahi/
He lobbied hard to get control of this forum, but when he was appointed moderator he abused the power, and was axed.
He lobbied hard to establish a 'Council of NINE Wise Men' to run CTC, but then he destroyed the cohesiveness of that group as well, it became know as the 'Council of SWINE' and it was eventually disbanded.
Wayne is now universally ignored wherever he goes across the internet, be careful when he offers advice.

[halva]

Raynolds it was precisely my purpose to get you to kill the climate change discussion threads at Open Democracy, which had been infested with no-brained and big-mouthed 'climate change sceptics'. Both sides there are clearly afraid of you, and that is not good news for you, because they are not 'chemmies'.

[jayreynolds]

Raynolds it was precisely my purpose to get you to kill the climate change discussion threads at Open Democracy, which had been infested with no-brained and big-mouthed 'climate change sceptics'. Both sides there are clearly afraid of you, and that is not good news for you, because they are not 'chemmies'.

Wayne, the discussion there died simply because there were too many hard questions being asked. You kept trying to get the GW folks interested in chemtrails, I kept exposing what you were doing, and neither side wanted anything to do with it. My only purpose was exposure of your intentions, and that being accomplished, I was finished. It will be the same wherever you try to ply your trade, old bean.

Remember that.

[halva]

For a start you don't have access to where I am 'plying my trade' and secondly your 'chemtrails' strategy is double-edged. It can easily boomerang on you, and I am systematically working towards having precisely that happen.

Without you being able to monitor me.

WMM learned that it is not possible to interfere effectively via internet from the other side of the world with another person's off-line political activity.

You will discover the same.

[halva]

Recent studies in Canada show that it is mainly older people who have memories of what the skies used to be like who suspect that there might be something abnormal about 'chemtrails'.

By keeping the whole 'chemmie' issue a big deal as you do, you are obstructing 'normalisation', and that is something to be welcomed.

[jayreynolds]

Recent studies in Canada show that it is mainly older people who have memories of what the skies used to be like who suspect that there might be something abnormal about 'chemtrails'.

By keeping the whole 'chemmie' issue a big deal as you do, you are obstructing 'normalisation', and that is something to be welcomed.

Wayne, I'm sure everybody would like to see this "study", if it exists.

Hey, "chemtrails" is basically a dying hoax, with hardly a newsworthy mention .
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=chemtrails

[halva]

You are out of the loop. I've posted the relevant information at my site.

[jayreynolds]

iT'S TOO BAD jIMBO ISN'T AROUND TO STRAIGHTEN THESE GUYS OUT.
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/thread8870.html

I think he'd fit in quite nicely, actually!

[halva]

Chemtrails out of the Closet?

by William Thomas (http://www.willthomas.net/Convergence/Weekly/Chemtrails.htm)


Nearly seven years after extensive “lay downs” of lingering and spreading white plumes were first reported smearing skies over across North America, Europe is in an uproar and Washington could be close to coming clean about chemtrails.

At least the Bush White house will soon have a legitimate weather control agency to finally “launder” one of the biggest cons ever perpetrated.

Introduced in the US Senate on March 1, 2005, Bill S517 calls for a US “Weather Modification Advisory and Research Board” to officially commence operations in October 2005. When passed as expected, this law will make large-scale chemical alteration of the atmosphere legal across a formerly free and beautiful land called America.

It’s already happening.

Less than two weeks before the bill was introduced, Linda wrote from “up here in the mountains of northeast Georgia” of the worst spray day she had ever seen. “Not one day in the past two months have we had a blue sky with normal clouds,” Linda wrote. Even normal clouds “are ‘laced’ with whatever the hell is coming out of those white planes that have no engine sounds, even when they fly low enough to see there is no printing anywhere on the planes.” Several years ago the US Air Force stated that it was repainting its silver aircraft white, and retrofitting its jet tanker fleet with “hush kits” to silence their engines.

DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THE WEATHER
Whatever fresh environmental disaster Bill S517 accomplishes, this bill will ease the way for admission of a project suspected by many and confirmed by air traffic controllers at America’s biggest airports. When and if the US public demands that their government “do something” about the extreme weather pummeling their neighborhoods, Washington will be able to officially reply, “We are.”

Intended to “develop and implement a comprehensive and coordinated national weather modification policy,” the board is tasked with coordinating state and federal weather modification efforts. It’s direct mandate is stepped-up research and development aimed at developing experimental “models, devices, equipment, materials, and processes” to change or control, “by artificial methods” the development of clouds and/or precipitation in the troposphere. This weather-forming region of the atmosphere lies between Earth’s surface and the stratosphere, starting around 35,000 feet.

The federal weather modifiers will now directly oversee the cloud-seeding operations currently being carried out over dozens of states to increase rain and snowfall for irrigation, electrical power and winter recreation purposes. As droughts intensify under an onslaught of moisture-absorbing chemicals dispensed behind ozone-destroying jet tankers, and future towns wash away in sudden flash floods triggered by rain-inducing atmospheric tinkering, these unnatural disasters and other “inadvertent” effects of weather modification will be closely “studied” by the newly created board.

But no studies have been released on the implications of wide-scale alteration of regional atmospheric heat balances.

Large-scale weather modification is banned under the United Nations Environmental Modification Convention signed by Washington in 1970.

CHEMTRAILS 2005
Meanwhile, recent heavy “chemtrail” spraying over Portland, Oregon and Canada’s west coast has eased off once again. Another long-time chemtrail “hot zone”, Santa Cruz, California continues reporting clear blue skies unmarked by the chemplanes’ ugly scrawl.

As recently as May 2005, a Swiss resident sent photographs to Meria Heller’s website, reporting: “Today was one of the heaviest Spraying in Switzerland ever.”

Some Canadians also have their eyes wide open. in June 2005, large graffiti spray-painted on a major overpass in West Vancouver advised motorists: WAKE UP, LOOK UP, CHEMTRAILS ARE EVERYWHERE.

AIR FORCE INSIDER DESCRIBES WEATHER MOD MISSIONS
An active duty air force insider has described environmental combat missions already being flown by specially-outfitted C-130 Hercules transports, which can be reloaded, refueled and relaunched in just 10 minutes to continue their assault on violent storms afflicting US communities. Flown by regular air force pilots, these “science flights” include onboard meteorologists, who painstakingly log the results of each mission.

Big storm fronts and hurricanes require a vast amount of absorbent chemicals to reduce their destructive power. To achieve the fast turn-around times needed to complete their missions, flights of returning C-130s taxi to a stop and immediately commence refueling as the empty onboard spray canister is removed. as soon as the empty canister is clear of the aircraft, a waiting truck wheels a semi-trailer-size container of sky-seeding chemicals to the plane’s lowered rear ramp, where it is slid inside on rails like a gigantic “soda dispenser”.

The crew chief added that other spray missions spread (barium) chemtrails to facilitate 3D radar mapping of the entire continental United States. He also said that the air force has been spraying storm fronts “for a long time”. The military’s main interest, he added, is experimentation aimed at gaining control of the weather for military use.

Did the air force spray this year’s first Caribbean hurricane, in which the western quadrant disintegrated just before making its Texas landfall? “There’s no reason they wouldn’t,” the crew chief replied.

[halva]

But C-130 turboprops would not necessarily be used to try to influence hurricanes that typically release more energy than all atomic arsenals combined. Referring to the 757s recently modified for aerial spraying, the crew chief told willthomas.net, “We’ve got them, but I can’t talk about them.”

He added that many people in the air force “are aware of William Thomas” and his reporting on chemtrails. The crew chief confirmed that this reporter “has it mostly right” concerning the application and purposes behind chemtrails. But would not elaborate on my reporting.

EUROPEAN CHEMTRAIL UPROAR
Meanwhile, the chemtrails controversy has taken Europe by storm following a series of articles by Swiss freelance journalist Gabriel Stetter in the German popular science magazine Raum+Zeit (Space and Time), circulation circa 50,000.

Stetter’s first article, “White Skies” created a public relations nightmare for Greenpeace when it informed readers in January 2004 how “Thousands of people were thoroughly shocked when they realised, and were informed by Greenpeace in Germany, Switzerland and Austria that—for some reason or other—Greenpeace has no interest in the chemtrail question whatsoever.”

The Swiss government also came under public pressure to explain the checkerboards being painted in its skies. On March 5, 2004 the Environment Department in Berne, Switzerland responded to an inquiry by Rudolf Rechsteiner, a Social Democratic member of parliament, admitting that “A number of ideas exist that show how it would be possible to reduce global warming by technical means, at least in the short term.”

But these ideas, the government office hastened to add, “are no more than theoretical. We are not aware of any practical application of these methods, either at home or abroad.”

Ten days later, Greenpeace Switzerland climate and transport expert Cyrill Studer wrote an internal memo assuring colleagues that while he had “heard of the chemtrails phenomenon,” for the present, Greenpeace “will not be following up the theme of chemtrails.”

Two reasons for inaction by Greenpeace climate change activists were given. First, Studer explained, “There is not a sufficiently solid scientific basis” for Greenpeace to risk its budget and reputation verifying this “supposed phenomenon”. To do so, he added in his memo to Greenpeace staff, “would overstretch our capacities…Important elements of our climate campaign would suffer, particularly the promotion of energy efficiency and of renewable energies, or our active influence in present-day politics.”

But outside Greenpeace’s corporate offices, the controversy continued. On June 11 German Greenpeace spokeswoman Kristine Läger told concerned constituents:

The idea of reducing global warming by putting chemicals in the atmosphere has been around a long time. There are various proposals in this direction, suggesting the chemicals should be independently sprayed and that they should be mixed with the fuel of ordinary passenger aircraft. Whether in Germany such proposals have reached the point of actual realization is highly questionable. So far as we are aware there are no indications from research and observation of weather and climate that these so-called chemtrails exist. Nor are we aware of any project that has been realized in practice.. in all probability this is not happening.

But Gabriel Stetter believes that the Greenpeace “Rainbow Warriors” know all about the rainbows in the sky. They probably also know of geoengineering studies to reduce incoming sunlight and slow global warming issued by the National Academy of Sciences. “And they may even have taken a look at the Welsbach Patent,” he writes. “But they have no idea what conclusions to draw from the chessboard pattern suspended in the Hamburg sky or the aluminium-enriched ‘rainbows’.

“Supposing the word ‘chemtrails’ appeared in print in the Greenpeace Magazine,” Stetter speculates. “How many tens of thousands of people more would look up into the sky and recognize that the supposedly Utopian “proposal” has long moved on via “spraying trials” to a systematic, long-term spreading of cloud cover over the whole of Europe?”

Back in Basel, Gabriel Stetter quoted unsourced opinion polls showing that in this “stronghold” of chemtrails believers, one in ten people “have already heard of them despite the media blackout. Several thousand people in the prosperous town at the bend in the Rhine know that the chemtrails phenomenon suggests that something is seriously wrong.”

Among these Swiss chemtrails activists, he explained, “are well-to-do people, who because of their environmental awareness have been for a long time, in some cases for decades, members of Greenpeace.”

Not any more.

“Veteran anti-nuclear activists, campaigners for animal welfare or against electrosmog—in their alarm they had all turned to Greenpeace because of the chemtrails, which are visible everywhere in the skies above Basel. But a painful experience awaited all of them. They were palmed off with the same unsatisfactory answers that we have by now grown tired of hearing. The consequence drawn by these elderly, well-to-do activists from Greenpeace’s lack of interest was the immediate cancellation of membership of many years, the withdrawal of legacies, and the withholding of payments to Greenpeace until further notice.”

As Brian Holmes notes on his website, www.holmestead.ca, the October 2004 issue #131 of the Raum + Zeit contained many pages of letters from readers responding positively to Stetter’s first article in issue #127. “Many of these letters are illustrated with color photographs supplied by the readers themselves.”

Former six-year a board member of Greenpeace Germany, Monika Griefahn chaired the Committee for Culture and Media of the Federal German Parliament when she replied to a letter from two chemtrails dissenters in July 2004, stating, “I am in basic agreement with your concerns. Instead of making a concerted and determined effort to reduce greenhouse gas emissions throughout the world, experiments of various kinds are being carried out in the earth’s atmosphere in order to cure the symptoms.”

GERMAN PARLIMENTARTIAN “ADMITS” CHEMTRAILS

Former six-year a board member of Greenpeace Germany, Monika Griefahn chaired the Committee for Culture and Media of the Federal German Parliament when she replied to a letter from two chemtrails dissenters in July 2004, stating, “I am in basic agreement with your concerns. Instead of making a concerted and determined effort to reduce greenhouse gas emissions throughout the world, experiments of various kinds are being carried out in the earth’s atmosphere in order to cure the symptoms.”

After assuring her correspondents, “I share your concern over the use of aluminium or barium compounds which have a considerable toxic potential,” the parliamentarian went on to say, “however, so far as I am aware the extent of their use is so far minimal.”

“At last!” Stetter announced in the German science magazine. “There we have it. In the skies of Germany, so Social Democratic member of Parliament Monika Griefahn tells us, aluminium and barium compounds are being spread just as tens of thousands of concerned citizens have observed, documented and bitterly deplored.”

Thanking the Honorable Griefahn her for her courage, Stetter suggested, “Maybe one day statues of politicians like Monika Griefahn or the equally plucky US Congressman Dennis Kucinich will adorn in marble splendor the squares of newly verdant German or American cities.”

That would be nice.

But the public outcry in Europe will have to spread to North America if we are to stop this massive, illegal and continuing air and atmospheric pollution.

[jayreynolds]

Thanking the Honorable Griefahn her for her courage, Stetter suggested, “Maybe one day statues of politicians like Monika Griefahn or the equally plucky US Congressman Dennis Kucinich will adorn in marble splendor the squares of newly verdant German or American cities.”

That would be nice. .
Kucinich has stated publicly he doesn't do chemtrails.
Griefahn doesn't either.

There is no public outcry of any significance in Yerp, or the US.
The chemtrails hoax is dead folks, your people just haven't recognized that fact yet.
Jay

[halva]

It's true that parliamentary and electoralist politicians continue to avoid 'chemtrails'. Gabriel Stetter's remarks on that score are off the mark.

So much for 'our people'.

There is nothing to say about ' your people', Raynolds, because as far as i can see there are no 'your people'. There is just you, and you don't pay any attention to what is unanimously being said here about you.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Greek politician Wayne Hall, aka Halva, and his extensive research now admits that there is no such thing as chemtrails. Halva admits to his Hoaxing the public on Chemtrails for a year.

After more than a year and one of the longest threads on Arianna's forum, Halva's seamless and exhaustive research proves Jay Reynolds is correct.

Wayne Hall tosses in the towel on the existance of chemtrails, with his extensive comments below. He leaves the chemtrails community disgraced.

Halva writes:

"I'm amazed at how much support the chemtrail issue has garnered over the past 5 years and there is now clearly a growing core of conspiracy theorists that are convinced that the increased jet contrail coverage is a result of some sort of government or military plan to purposefully modify the weather and/or to influence our health in some adverse way. I'm convinced this is all complete nonsense and have yet to come across one logical, scientifically-sound piece of evidence to support such claims. It does make for good (and sometimes very entertaining) discussion though!

I believe that what you are getting at is the idea that the chemtrail believers have somehow overshadowed or hindered the effectiveness of legitimate, scientifically-sound research that has shown how contrails, and aviation in general, is affecting climate. This is an interesting proposition but honestly not one that I have found to be true to this point with my own research. No doubt whenever my colleagues or I publish new findings on the impacts of aviation (contrails) on climate, we hear from the chemtrail folks complaining that we haven't taken advantage of the media coverage to hype their conspiracy theories or even just to call them chemtrails instead of contrails. However, I find this to be more of an irritant than anything else and, as time permits, try to use it as an opportunity to try to educate these folks on the atmospheric controls on contrail formation and persistence. But your point is well-taken...as support for these unfounded beliefs grows it potentially does undermine the effectiveness of legitimate scientific research. The ironic thing is that both groups (the chemtrail folks and the contrail researchers) have similar goals and that is to convince the public and policy makers that contrails and other aviation influences are influencing our atmosphere and earth's surface environment. Neither one of us think they are a "good" thing!

====

2. Regarding the chemtrail problem and this seeming unwillingness for scientists to communicate with chemtrail activists, I can tell you that you are completely mistaken in believing that two communications is the maximum between scientists and chemtrail activists on this subject (I hope you were joking about that), as I personally have gone back and forth with certain individuals as many as 10 times before finally giving up. I know this to be true for many of my U.S. colleagues doing research on this subject (Patrick Minnis at NASA has tried for years to deal with these people). I would be happy to forward to you numerous e-mails where such communications took place and/or all you have to do is look at the various U.S. chemtrail forums where parts of these are posted. These communications always end the same way...with the chemtrail activists claiming the scientists must be "on the take" and covering something up for the sake of getting their next research grant funded. I find it quite ironic that all of the scientists that don't agree with the chemtrail idea end up being called "debunkers" and yet we are the ones that go to conferences and publish papers trying to convince the world that aviation is changing climate. We have our own "debunkers" to contend with (the REAL ones!).

3. The 1992 report was meant for theoretical discussion only! Reports like this come out all of time...! Did you read the one a few years ago about spreading oil slicks across the oceans to help reduce the intensity of hurricanes? Does anybody really think they're going to do this? A couple years ago a paper was published in Science that suggested if more airplane flights took place when the sun angle was low (i.e. around sunrise or sunset) the "cooling" effect of contrails would exceed their warming effects and this could help to offset global warming. A great THEORY but obviously nothing has been done to take advantage of this idea and probably never will. Imagine the costs and incredibly complicated logistics it would take to pull off these sorts of things and that which is being proposed by the chemtrail activists? And all of this going on while oil prices continue to rise and major airlines continuing to bankrupt?! Hard to imagine.

Let me leave you with the one thing that I tell chemtrail activists that often leads to the end of our communication (cut-off by them, not me). If the 1992 report is the basis for many of these theories of chemtrail "spraying", how come I have satellite imagery of clusters of contrails persisting for many hours (i.e. "chemtrails") and criss-crossing all over the sky and doing all of the other mysterious things that chemtrails are supposed to do, from as early as the late 1970s...? I have even sent some of these folks copies of these satellite images and then I never hear from them again. Some of the first observations of persisting contrails (chemtrails) came from pictures taken on board the early NASA missions in the late 1960s. I just don't believe the 1992 report had anything to do with the recent increase in persisting contrails. I chalk the increase up to two primary things, (1) increased number of flights and (2) increased awareness of the public. We are currently looking at the effects of two secondary influences- the changes in cruising altitudes and conditions of the upper troposphere but those are probably minimal compared to the first two listed. "

[halva]

Go to the 'chemtrails as an excuse' thread. Spamming is wrong, unnecessary and may bring in the moderators.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

You stay here with your vapid non-sense that NASA types would have to be asked to write reports that in essence tell---"Hey world, we screwed up the environment so bad that it is going to cause massive plaques, huge weather problems, and need ways to limit the damage."

Only morons don't see the logic that they are not going to write reports that say, We need to put these people in jail for environmental crimes.


Everyone is getting tired of your vapid non-sense.

[jayreynolds]

You stay here with your vapid non-sense that NASA types would have to be asked to write reports that in essence tell---"Hey world, we screwed up the environment so bad that it is going to cause massive plaques, huge weather problems, and need ways to limit the damage."

Only morons don't see the logic that they are not going to write reports that say, We need to put these people in jail for environmental crimes.


Everyone is getting tired of your vapid non-sense.

Jimbo, but if that were true, what about YOU?
You claim "chemtrails" were YOUR inventions, and write freely about them.
If YOU can write about them, why can't anyone else?

The logic here is inescapable. Jimbo everyone knows you are just making this stuff up.
We've known about it for a long long time.
Wayne knows, Yaak knows, Dave knows, Footsoldier knows, whitey knows the moderators know.
We ALL know.
It's been fun humoring the 'village nutcase'. You are the resident COURT JESTER for everyone.

YOU have chosen to put on the hat with points and dance your little jig. For Wayne, you have been useful as afoil against me, a tool he could direct as he isn't capable of defending himself. He has been USING you, old buddy.

Get that through your pointed little head, Jimbo.
Theye are finished with you. Cutting you loose.
http://temptatts4u.com/AATS612.jpg

Originally Posted by Jim Phelps:

"The HAARP Project is another one and one that I also gave the name for."

"My studies on the atmosphere effects shut down the cold war."

"I had succeeded in becoming one of the best of the nuclear scientists and discovered a weapon that was even worse than the H-bomb."

"I also solved the mystery behind the Tunguska Blast in 1908."

"My discovery that the G-protein effects of fluoride-metal complexes caused the AIDS epidemic set off a national emergency."

"I also walked on these volcanoes barefoot, just as Moses did in his time."

"It was via Jim Phelps' knowledge of these relevant issues on Global Climate change and old world warfare that the HAARP and chemtrail methods were conceived or invented."

"The invention of JP-8 jet fuel formula was also an inadvertent Icon for Jim Phelps..."

"I invented "nanoscience" and the revolution in small atom scale materials to effect global systems effects."

"Jim Phelps is the father of the nano- science revolution that started at ORNL in the mid-1980's."

"My nano-science discoveries are being used to control global warming and global health, and are the essences of global systems science. It uses the secrets of the Ark of the Covenant and the secrets of 5,000 year old Egyptian metals sciences."

"I have managed to end the production of Freon in the US due to these issues and one can see that Freon was banned by Congress just after my discoveries."

"I am the fail-safe for these problems, a kind of Egyptian Anubis watchdog for the feather balance of right vs wrong."

"Jim Phelps is the national lab person that discovered serious issues in terminal event theory of global systems, invented Star Wars weapons, forced the DOE to begin clean up of pollution damaging workers and communities, discovered the air pharmacology techniques [aka chemtrails], and forced the closure of K-25 and other DOE plants. My projects in the DOE and DOD are more classified than the H-bomb."

"Jim Phelps is the inventor of the HAARP project, the discover that the Earth's magnetic field is an MHD generator, the discover of the critical factors of fluoide's on health..."

"Jim Phelps invented systems that protect the health of animals and man on a scale that dwarfs what Moses attempted..."

"I invented the titanium technique, which essentially blocks the onset of fluorosis due to fluoride in the food and water chain."

"Today, my titanium air pharmacology invention keeps the cattle of the US from getting things like "Mad Cow" syndrome from the fallout of fluorides onto grass."

"I have the ranking most powerful weapon system design in Star Wars that literally taps the power from a Star."

"My studies also solved the basic issues on the cause of AIDS in 1985."

"I had succeeded in becoming one of the best of the nuclear scientists and discovered a weapon that was even worse than the H-bomb."

"I had become more a destroyer of worlds, as Oppenheimer quoted from the "Gita."

"In the DOE, Jim Phelps is considered one step removed from God.."

[halva]

Republicans accused of witch-hunt against climate change scientists

Paul Brown, environment correspondent
Tuesday August 30, 2005

Guardian

Some of America's leading scientists have accused Republican politicians of intimidating climate-change experts by placing them under unprecedented scrutiny.
A far-reaching inquiry into the careers of three of the US's most senior climate specialists has been launched by Joe Barton, the chairman of the House of Representatives committee on energy and commerce. He has demanded details of all their sources of funding, methods and everything they have ever published.

Mr Barton, a Texan closely associated with the fossil-fuel lobby, has spent his 11 years as chairman opposing every piece of legislation designed to combat climate change.

He is using the wide powers of his committee to force the scientists to produce great quantities of material after alleging flaws and lack of transparency in their research. He is working with Ed Whitfield, the chairman of the sub-committee on oversight and investigations.

The scientific work they are investigating was important in establishing that man-made carbon emissions were at least partly responsible for global warming, and formed part of the 2001 report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which convinced most world leaders - George Bush was a notable exception - that urgent action was needed to curb greenhouse gases.

The demands in letters sent to the scientists have been compared by some US media commentators to the anti-communist "witch-hunts" pursued by Joe McCarthy in the 1950s.

The three US climate scientists - Michael Mann, the director of the Earth System Science Centre at Pennsylvania State University; Raymond Bradley, the director of the Climate System Research Centre at the University of Massachusetts; and Malcolm Hughes, the former director of the Laboratory of Tree-Ring Research at the University of Arizona - have been told to send large volumes of material.

A letter demanding information on the three and their work has also gone to Arden Bement, the director of the US National Science Foundation.

Mr Barton's inquiry was launched after an article in the Wall Street Journal quoted an economist and a statistician, neither of them from a climate science background, saying there were methodological flaws and data errors in the three scientists' calculations. It accused the trio of refusing to make their original material available to be cross-checked.

Mr Barton then asked for everything the scientists had ever published and all baseline data. He said the information was necessary because Congress was going to make policy decisions drawing on their work, and his committee needed to check its validity.

There followed a demand for details of everything they had done since their careers began, funding received and procedures for data disclosure.

The inquiry has sent shockwaves through the US scientific establishment, already under pressure from the Bush administration, which links funding to policy objectives.

Eighteen of the country's most influential scientists from Princeton and Harvard have written to Mr Barton and Mr Whitfield expressing "deep concern". Their letter says much of the information requested is unrelated to climate science.

It says: "Requests to provide all working materials related to hundreds of publications stretching back decades can be seen as intimidation - intentional or not - and thereby risks compromising the independence of scientific opinion that is vital to the pre-eminence of American science as well as to the flow of objective science to the government."

Alan Leshner protested on behalf of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, expressing "deep concern" about the inquiry, which appeared to be "a search for a basis to discredit the particular scientists rather than a search for understanding".

Political reaction has been stronger. Henry Waxman, a senior Californian Democrat, wrote complaining that this was a "dubious" inquiry which many viewed as a "transparent effort to bully and harass climate-change experts who have reached conclusions with which you disagree".

But the strongest language came from another Republican, Sherwood Boehlert, the chairman of the house science committee. He wrote to "express my strenuous objections to what I see as the misguided and illegitimate investigation".

He said it was pernicious to substitute political review for scientific peer review and the precedent was "truly chilling". He said the inquiry "seeks to erase the line between science and politics" and should be reconsidered.

A spokeswoman for Mr Barton said yesterday that all the required written evidence had been collected.

"The committee will review everything we have and decided how best to proceed. No decision has yet been made whether to have public hearings to investigate the validity of the scientists' findings, but that could be the next step for this autumn," she said.

[halva]

People on these threads who like talking about 'terrorists' and about religion might find things in this article that are worth thinking about:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/conflict-terrorism/british_sufis_2786.jsp

[halva]

Torrance, CA Emergency Simulation (http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/090105_oil_shockwave_summary.shtml)

Michael Ruppert provides an insight into the minds and behaviour of cornered elites who really want to be able to govern properly but cannot do anything different to what they are doing.

You cannot petition people like this WMM.

Unfortunately the full version is available only to subscribers.

[halva]

Let us try to understand the knots we have been tied into.

We are being held to ransom by a Bush-supporting neo-conservative ‘climate change sceptic’ lobby who, resisting the policies that could really address climate change, have instead imposed ‘alternative’ policies of their own which scientists feel obliged to implement but are afraid to defend publicly. Many of these alternative ‘geoengineering’ solutions seem to violate elementary common sense. They are revealed to the public as ideas, but not as policies that are being implemented. Perhaps IPCC-directed scientists fear that the ‘climate change sceptic’ lobby itself could take legal action against practitioners of geoengineering.

The scientists feel trapped, but rather than confronting the forces that have trapped them, they look at the uncomprehending public. It is the ‘complacency’ of the public that is to blame. To overcome this complacency, the public has to be frightened. Climate scientists develop theories of ‘global dimming’ and ‘sudden climate change’, calculating that their disclosures may shock the public into demanding drastic action against greenhouse emissions without anyone being obliged to reveal that ‘geoengineering’ has already started.

Some climate scientists and climate change activists overdo the fear-mongering, in this way playing into the hands of the climate change ‘sceptics’, who are enabled then to present themselves as the ‘responsible moderates’, not the panicking ‘Chicken Little’ ecologists.

There is direct continuity between today’s ‘chemtrails’ situation and yesterday’s Cold War nuclear arms race.. Even at the institutional level the same establishments, first and foremost the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory, are involved.

The same cheap political trickery is at work, its most characteristic practititioner being Edward Teller, who is now dead of course, physically but unfortunately not politically.

The logic is the same:

1) Postulate a lie.

In the case of the nuclear arms race the lie was that the Soviet Union is an implacable foe, posing a deadly military threat and impossible to reason with. In the case of ‘chemtrails’ the lie is that anthropogenic climate change is NOT threatening, or at least not proved to be threatening..

2) Initiate behaviour that makes the lie appear more plausible.

In the case of the nuclear arms race this was done by threatening the Soviet Union so systematically with destruction that it began to pour more and more of its resources into its own weapons buildup. In the case of ‘chemtrails’ a war was launched against the allegedly politicized ‘junk science’ of climate scientists warning against the dangers of global warming. The climate change campaign was thus reduced to a cunning strategy for extracting money from public and private agencies.

3) Demonize those reacting with anger against the situation you have produced.

In the Cold War those who opposed the military build-up and military threats against the Soviet Union were designated Communists or fellow travelers. In the case of
‘chemtrails’ anyone who reacts to what they see in the sky and demands an explanation is stigmatized as a lunatic or an unbalanced and deluded individual. And anyone who takes seriously anthropogenic global warming is a dupe of money-grubbing ecological researchers whose only interest is in lining their pockets.

What is involved in both cases is cheap trickery. The deliberate inculcation of cognitive dissonance through the retailing of lies.

With the development of glasnost and perestroika, Soviet diplomacy began make ‘depriving the West of its enemy’ unconditional first priority, even if this involved the Soviet Union subscribing to Cold War lies about itself, in order not to be ‘an enemy’.

This Soviet manoeuvre demanded an equal and opposite ‘Western’ manoeuvre, and indeed the ‘chemtrails’ variant of blackmail follows an opposite logic to the Cold War variant.. Rather than it being mandatory to feel threatened by nuclear annihilation it is now mandatory to be confident that ‘everything is OK’ (there is not e.g. something strange happening in the sky.)

The reassurance of Western populations that Soviet diplomacy had begun to achieve through glasnost and perestroika was turned into its opposite, into something compulsory. And compulsory belief that there is nothing to be afraid of is just as repressive as compulsory belief that one must be afraid of the Soviet Union.

This evolution is not of course unrelated to the move from nuclear war as a weapon (the catastrophe which is continually announced but not carried out), to weather as a weapon ( the catastrophe which is carried out but not threatened), so that the target can never be sure whether he has or has not been the victim of deliberate aggression.

[whitemajikman]

Let us try to understand the knots we have been tied into.

We are being held to ransom by a Bush-supporting neo-conservative ‘climate change sceptic’ lobby who, resisting the policies that could really address climate change, have instead imposed ‘alternative’ policies of their own which scientists feel obliged to implement but are afraid to defend publicly. Many of these alternative ‘geoengineering’ solutions seem to violate elementary common sense. They are revealed to the public as ideas, but not as policies that are being implemented. Perhaps IPCC-directed scientists fear that the ‘climate change sceptic’ lobby itself could take legal action against practitioners of geoengineering.

The scientists feel trapped, but rather than confronting the forces that have trapped them, they look at the uncomprehending public. It is the ‘complacency’ of the public that is to blame. To overcome this complacency, the public has to be frightened. Climate scientists develop theories of ‘global dimming’ and ‘sudden climate change’, calculating that their disclosures may shock the public into demanding drastic action against greenhouse emissions without anyone being obliged to reveal that ‘geoengineering’ has already started.

Some climate scientists and climate change activists overdo the fear-mongering, in this way playing into the hands of the climate change ‘sceptics’, who are enabled then to present themselves as the ‘responsible moderates’, not the panicking ‘Chicken Little’ ecologists.

There is direct continuity between today’s ‘chemtrails’ situation and yesterday’s Cold War nuclear arms race.. Even at the institutional level the same establishments, first and foremost the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory, are involved.

The same cheap political trickery is at work, its most characteristic practititioner being Edward Teller, who is now dead of course, physically but unfortunately not politically.

The logic is the same:

1) Postulate a lie.

In the case of the nuclear arms race the lie was that the Soviet Union is an implacable foe, posing a deadly military threat and impossible to reason with. In the case of ‘chemtrails’ the lie is that anthropogenic climate change is NOT threatening, or at least not proved to be threatening..

2) Initiate behaviour that makes the lie appear more plausible.

In the case of the nuclear arms race this was done by threatening the Soviet Union so systematically with destruction that it began to pour more and more of its resources into its own weapons buildup. In the case of ‘chemtrails’ a war was launched against the allegedly politicized ‘junk science’ of climate scientists warning against the dangers of global warming. The climate change campaign was thus reduced to a cunning strategy for extracting money from public and private agencies.

3) Demonize those reacting with anger against the situation you have produced.

In the Cold War those who opposed the military build-up and military threats against the Soviet Union were designated Communists or fellow travelers. In the case of
‘chemtrails’ anyone who reacts to what they see in the sky and demands an explanation is stigmatized as a lunatic or an unbalanced and deluded individual. And anyone who takes seriously anthropogenic global warming is a dupe of money-grubbing ecological researchers whose only interest is in lining their pockets.

What is involved in both cases is cheap trickery. The deliberate inculcation of cognitive dissonance through the retailing of lies.

With the development of glasnost and perestroika, Soviet diplomacy began make ‘depriving the West of its enemy’ unconditional first priority, even if this involved the Soviet Union subscribing to Cold War lies about itself, in order not to be ‘an enemy’.

This Soviet manoeuvre demanded an equal and opposite ‘Western’ manoeuvre, and indeed the ‘chemtrails’ variant of blackmail follows an opposite logic to the Cold War variant.. Rather than it being mandatory to feel threatened by nuclear annihilation it is now mandatory to be confident that ‘everything is OK’ (there is not e.g. something strange happening in the sky.)

The reassurance of Western populations that Soviet diplomacy had begun to achieve through glasnost and perestroika was turned into its opposite, into something compulsory. And compulsory belief that there is nothing to be afraid of is just as repressive as compulsory belief that one must be afraid of the Soviet Union.

This evolution is not of course unrelated to the move from nuclear war as a weapon (the catastrophe which is continually announced but not carried out), to weather as a weapon ( the catastrophe which is carried out but not threatened), so that the target can never be sure whether he has or has not been the victim of deliberate aggression.


Wayne That was Brilliant But More Importantly It Pinpoints The Propaganda War The U.S. Is Famous For Implementing Over The Last 70 Years And Which Has Increased Dramatically Since 1990 Because Of The Threat Of Global Warming And Climate Change And Also Because Of Dwindling Oil............

But I Also Do Not Think That There Is A Middle Ground That Can Be Walked On When Discussing This Issue.......

WMM

[halva]

There is a middle ground - the proposals I formulated for presentation to the social forums, demanding legalization for the geoengineering measures demanded by the IPCC.

There is no fancy theorizing in that text, so people shouldn't feel pressured.

[jayreynolds]

Wayne That was Brilliant WMM

No, it was inane, yet sure to please your deluded fellow chemmies.

Wayne, there is no substitute for facts.
You have stated none which support your thesis.

What you have tried to do is to support a thesis by assumption, not factual or logical proof.

The false logic you tried lacks common-sense.
For example, you ask the reader to adopt your idea that "chemtrails" exist without offering any proof whatsoever.
You then jump to a preposterous conclusion that all scientists, without exception, are kept quiet.
The rest is just an anlogy you hold internally to explain away your previous failures dealing with your communist friends.

Go ahead and distribute this if you like, it is sure to generate a loud silence among those posessing common sense and the caapacity to see it comntains no substance.

[halva]

Which text are you referring to Raynolds? Are you sure you are really following this discussion?

[jayreynolds]

Which text are you referring to Raynolds? Are you sure you are really following this discussion?
This is what YOU wrote, and what my commentary refers to:
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=379410&postcount=7322

Don't pretend to be smart, Wayne. It's clear enough you are a nitwit over your head.

[halva]

The text I indicated to WMM might be more suitable for distribution, orienting more to 'the middle ground' was this one. (http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=377686&postcount=607)

In the meantime, I have made some additions to it, so that it now reads:

CLIMATE CHANGE AND GEOENGINEERING

One element that is missing from ecological and social movement discussion about climate change is ‘geoengineering’, a word used for techniques being proposed by scientists and commercial journalists as a ‘politically realistic’ remedy for climate change.

An article recently published in the magazine Popular Science provides a characteristic example of these kinds of proposals:

Describing a meeting in the White House in September 2001 organized by the US President’s Climate Change Technology Program to discuss ‘Response Options to Rapid or Severe Climate Change’, the article frankly admits that ‘while administration officials were insisting publicly that there was no firm proof that the planet was warming, they were quietly exploring potential ways to turn down the heat.’

In March 2001 President Bush had withdrawn US support from the Kyoto Protocol. This meeting therefore represented something like a US counterproposal to Kyoto, an ‘alternative approach to climate change’.

Some time ago Edward Teller, in his 'Sunscreen for Planet Earth' made a similar ‘alternative’ proposal.

The physicist and economist David Keith, who was present at the White House meeting, is quoted in the article as saying ‘if they had broadcast that meeting live to people in Europe, there would have been riots.’

Anyone can see what the ‘geoengineering’ proposals were simply by reading the relevant article in Popular Science.

For those for whom that is difficult, the proposals included: 1) underground storage of carbon dioxide, 2) wind scrubbers to filter carbon dioxide from the air, 3) ‘fertilization’ of oceans with iron to encourage growth of plankton, 4) petrification of carbon dioxide, 5) deflection of sunlight from the earth by a 600,000 sq. m. space mirror. ’.

One point worth mentioning at least in passing is that, apart from the question of how effective these measures would really be, all these highly oil-dependent ‘solutions’ to problems largely caused in the first place by burning fossil fuels, are being prepared for a world that is beginning to run out of oil. (!)

In the case of at least one geoengineering measure, namely: ‘Enhancing Clouds to Reflect Sunlight’, a mass of eyewitness evidence for all over the world suggests that, despite official denials, a programme serving some such purpose is not merely a proposal but a reality.

How significant are the denials? Note that the Popular Science article itself admits that the US administration’s words about ‘proof that the planet is warming’ do not match its deeds. If untruthful official denial of global warming is possible, why should untruthful official denial of actually ongoing measures, supposedly to combat global warming, not similarly be possible?

The European Social Forum should include the following in any statement issued on the subject of ‘Climate Change’:


1) If geoengineering projects of the kind proposed by the US President’s Climate Change Technology Program are actually being implemented and are harmful to the environment and human health, they should be stopped.

2) If a significant section of international scientific opinion (for example the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) believes that such measures against climate change are necessary, the measures must be legalized. Only in this way are citizens who regard the measures as harmful to the environment and human health enabled publicly and legally to oppose them. Only in this way, also, can civilian climate science be properly separated from the military utilization of weather and climate.


If such geoengineering programmes are actually being implemented and governments and scientists all deny this, the only political beneficiaries are the ‘conservative’ climate-change-sceptic party-political lobbies supporting President Bush who seek to deny virtually all environmental problems and in this way politically marginalize ecologically-active citizens.

Climate scientists and activists lost the battle with this lobby in the 90s largely because they were fighting with one hand tied behind their backs. Full exposure of the ‘geoengineering’ story would devastate the ‘climate change sceptic’ lobby.

[whitemajikman]

The text I indicated to WMM might be more suitable for distribution, orienting more to 'the middle ground' was this one. (http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=377686&postcount=607)

In the meantime, I have made some additions to it, so that it now reads:

CLIMATE CHANGE AND GEOENGINEERING

One element that is missing from ecological and social movement discussion about climate change is ‘geoengineering’, a word used for techniques being proposed by scientists and commercial journalists as a ‘politically realistic’ remedy for climate change.

An article recently published in the magazine Popular Science provides a characteristic example of these kinds of proposals:

Describing a meeting in the White House in September 2001 organized by the US President’s Climate Change Technology Program to discuss ‘Response Options to Rapid or Severe Climate Change’, the article frankly admits that ‘while administration officials were insisting publicly that there was no firm proof that the planet was warming, they were quietly exploring potential ways to turn down the heat.’

In March 2001 President Bush had withdrawn US support from the Kyoto Protocol. This meeting therefore represented something like a US counterproposal to Kyoto, an ‘alternative approach to climate change’.

Some time ago Edward Teller, in his 'Sunscreen for Planet Earth' made a similar ‘alternative’ proposal.

The physicist and economist David Keith, who was present at the White House meeting, is quoted in the article as saying ‘if they had broadcast that meeting live to people in Europe, there would have been riots.’

Anyone can see what the ‘geoengineering’ proposals were simply by reading the relevant article in Popular Science.

For those for whom that is difficult, the proposals included: 1) underground storage of carbon dioxide, 2) wind scrubbers to filter carbon dioxide from the air, 3) ‘fertilization’ of oceans with iron to encourage growth of plankton, 4) petrification of carbon dioxide, 5) deflection of sunlight from the earth by a 600,000 sq. m. space mirror. ’.

One point worth mentioning at least in passing is that, apart from the question of how effective these measures would really be, all these highly oil-dependent ‘solutions’ to problems largely caused in the first place by burning fossil fuels, are being prepared for a world that is beginning to run out of oil. (!)

In the case of at least one geoengineering measure, namely: ‘Enhancing Clouds to Reflect Sunlight’, a mass of eyewitness evidence for all over the world suggests that, despite official denials, a programme serving some such purpose is not merely a proposal but a reality.

How significant are the denials? Note that the Popular Science article itself admits that the US administration’s words about ‘proof that the planet is warming’ do not match its deeds. If untruthful official denial of global warming is possible, why should untruthful official denial of actually ongoing measures, supposedly to combat global warming, not similarly be possible?

The European Social Forum should include the following in any statement issued on the subject of ‘Climate Change’:


1) If geoengineering projects of the kind proposed by the US President’s Climate Change Technology Program are actually being implemented and are harmful to the environment and human health, they should be stopped.

2) If a significant section of international scientific opinion (for example the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) believes that such measures against climate change are necessary, the measures must be legalized. Only in this way are citizens who regard the measures as harmful to the environment and human health enabled publicly and legally to oppose them. Only in this way, also, can civilian climate science be properly separated from the military utilization of weather and climate.


If such geoengineering programmes are actually being implemented and governments and scientists all deny this, the only political beneficiaries are the ‘conservative’ climate-change-sceptic party-political lobbies supporting President Bush who seek to deny virtually all environmental problems and in this way politically marginalize ecologically-active citizens.

Climate scientists and activists lost the battle with this lobby in the 90s largely because they were fighting with one hand tied behind their backs. Full exposure of the ‘geoengineering’ story would devastate the ‘climate change sceptic’ lobby.


Again Wayne,WELL PUT.......

Not only would it devastate the "climate change sceptic" lobby it would change the balance of Political Power and ultimately create an environment for TRUTH the likes of which this planet has never seen before........

And In The process Create a Sense Of Responsibility Among The world population Regarding Mankind being the stewards Of this Big Blue Marble Which We Call Home.....

Not Only Is It Our Responsibility to Educate and Enlighten it is also our Responsibility to do it with a balanced view as to not fall in the same trap as our predecessors.......

And I Think Thats Where Me And Boomer Go Our Seperate Ways In Debate........We Have Both Chosen The Opposites of a single paradigm........

Hers Is Upbeat But Contains Just as Much Speculation as mine does when speculating the future conclusions of events.......

WMM

[jayreynolds]

In the case of at least one geoengineering measure, namely: ‘Enhancing Clouds to Reflect Sunlight’, a mass of eyewitness evidence for all over the world suggests that, despite official denials, a programme serving some such purpose is not merely a proposal but a reality.

This section is flaccid and droll, Wayne. Sure to please a chemmie, but incomprehensible to the laymen with no idea of "Chemtrails". Their reaction, if the intended audience haven't fallen asleep already, would be "what is this person talking about?" Basically, it is your way of trying to sneak in a hoax for which you know there is no proof, or else you'd show something other than "I see, therefore I believe.."


1) If geoengineering projects of the kind proposed by the US President’s Climate Change Technology Program are actually being implemented and are harmful to the environment and human health, they should be stopped.

2) If a significant section of international scientific opinion (for example the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) believes that such measures against climate change are necessary, the measures must be legalized.

Only in this way are citizens who regard the measures as harmful to the environment and human health enabled publicly and legally to oppose them. Only in this way, also, can civilian climate science be properly separated from the military utilization of weather and climate.

Hold on there, Hoss. What you are asking these people, not yet in your camp, to do is legalize something you regard as harmful????
Oh. man, how logical this Wayne Hall really is.............NOT


If such geoengineering programmes are actually being implemented and governments and scientists all deny this, the only political beneficiaries are the ‘conservative’ climate-change-sceptic party-political lobbies supporting President Bush who seek to deny virtually all environmental problems and in this way politically marginalize ecologically-active citizens.

There you go again, Wayne, that assumptive term "IF".
NO PROOF NECESSARY??


Climate scientists and activists lost the battle with this lobby in the 90s largely because they were fighting with one hand tied behind their backs. Full exposure of the ‘geoengineering’ story would devastate the ‘climate change sceptic’ lobby.
Oh, tell your people they have lost the battle, that's sure to win some friends.........
But why not just tell them they are seeing "chemtrails"?
Be a man for once, not a sneaky mouse, Wayne.

BTW, the group Wayne mentions, "The Social Forum" is a marginalized irrelevant mob of commies who meet in stadiums to whip-up themselves into a frenzy once in awhile.
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/esf/

[Boomer Chick]

This section is flaccid and droll, Wayne. Sure to please a chemmie, but incomprehensible to the laymen with no idea of "Chemtrails". Their reaction, if the intended audience haven't fallen asleep already, would be "what is this person talking about?" Basically, it is your way of trying to sneak in a hoax for which you know there is no proof, or else you'd show something other than "I see, therefore I believe.."



Hold on there, Hoss. What you are asking these people, not yet in your camp, to do is legalize something you regard as harmful????
Oh. man, how logical this Wayne Hall really is.............NOT



There you go again, Wayne, that assumptive term "IF".
NO PROOF NECESSARY??


Oh, tell your people they have lost the battle, that's sure to win some friends.........
But why not just tell them they are seeing "chemtrails"?
Be a man for once, not a sneaky mouse, Wayne.

BTW, the group Wayne mentions, "The Social Forum" is a marginalized irrelevant mob of commies who meet in stadiums to whip-up themselves into a frenzy once in awhile.
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/esf/

Well the bells of Jay's righteous criticism ring loudly in my ears!!! YES, and I would add that Halva needs to define "geoengineering" and support his suppositions that proposals are harmful and describe in what way they may be and beyond that provide the reader with more evidence that MAYBE geo-engineering programs are already underway. There are ways to support a supposition and admit that indeed it IS a supposition. Presenting it as a theory and admitting that suppositions are merely that and no more is more honest and more credible. What grounds do you have for your supposition? What inferences in the press have you made? What information have you gleaned from legitimate sources?

What is geoengineering? Define. Real ongoing projects as examples.
Who is geoengineering? Define. Countries involved in projects.
Why would they need the geoengineering? Various remedies, various ongoing data-gathering projects for what purpose?
What are your suppositions on possible "secret" g.e. projects and why? State as suppositions... admit.
Based on your suppositions, why would certain g.e. projects be harmful?
Conclusion: How to get to the truth of secret projects?
What present projects need revamping or improvement?
What are the implications regarding the supposed projects?
How does an organization or individual citizen research international and national secret projects?

***

Wasting time.

[halva]

Thank you for your thoughtful input.

[jayreynolds]

'Back to the drawing board", eh, Wayne?

[whitemajikman]

Well the bells of Jay's righteous criticism ring loudly in my ears!!! YES, and I would add that Halva needs to define "geoengineering" and support his suppositions that proposals are harmful and describe in what way they may be and beyond that provide the reader with more evidence that MAYBE geo-engineering programs are already underway. There are ways to support a supposition and admit that indeed it IS a supposition. Presenting it as a theory and admitting that suppositions are merely that and no more is more honest and more credible. What grounds do you have for your supposition? What inferences in the press have you made? What information have you gleaned from legitimate sources?

What is geoengineering? Define. Real ongoing projects as examples.
Who is geoengineering? Define. Countries involved in projects.
Why would they need the geoengineering? Various remedies, various ongoing data-gathering projects for what purpose?
What are your suppositions on possible "secret" g.e. projects and why? State as suppositions... admit.
Based on your suppositions, why would certain g.e. projects be harmful?
Conclusion: How to get to the truth of secret projects?
What present projects need revamping or improvement?
What are the implications regarding the supposed projects?
How does an organization or individual citizen research international and national secret projects?

***

Wasting time.


They Ring Loudly Because You Are Deaf And Blind........

And Also a Hypocrite........

On The Main Forum You Take The Position That Bush And Cheney Are Evil And Are Lying To The General Public Regarding Everything From Iraq To Oil.........But Yet You Do Not Support Those Claims With Factual Evidence..........You Support Those Claims Through Your own Speculation And That Of Others..........

But Yet Here........You Criticize Others For Doing The Exact Same Thing You Yourself Are Guilty oF.........

How Convenient For You........

WMM

[halva]

There is no reason at all to discuss anything with people who are not focused on purposeful action.

The only reason for staying here is not to hand the board over to the debunkers, including BC, but that doesn't mean one has to talk about anything of importance here.

[jayreynolds]

There is no reason at all to discuss anything with people who are not focused on purposeful action.

The only reason for staying here is not to hand the board over to the debunkers, including BC, but that doesn't mean one has to talk about anything of importance here.

But Wayne, time after time I have informed you of opportunity upon opportunity to accomplish "purposeful action". I've directed you towards competent experts, referred you to national and international conferences where you could present your claims before scientists, pilots, and meteorologists able to answer all your questions and dissimilate your findings should they prove valid.

The result was a distince non-action in most cases.
One case in which you were caught in public resulted in a slap in your face by a prominent Climate change author Ross Gelbspan when you deliberately misquoted him which resulted in him directing you to delete the information and severing all relations with you.

Secondly, you approached UK climate researchers who thoroughly debunked your entire hoax.

Now you can fiddle and fritter away time here if you like, and even speak of nothing of importance, but in reality that has been a consistent attribute of your "purposeful action".
In terms of how you think you might be here to "not to hand the board over to the debunkers", that is a preposterous joke. This is an open board, and anyone is free to come and go as they please. You could neither deny or admit me, nor I to you. Nothing you could do or say could dissuade me from being here, while everything I do and say is designed specifically to highlight the utter failure of your people's hoax.

If you think you can take the heat, stick around and get burned.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Short and to the point:

"" Jay, Don't you think it is better for people to question whether you could be nuts than for you to continue your asinine postings and remove all doubt? ""

[jayreynolds]

Jay, Don't you think it is better for people to question whether you could be nuts than for you to continue your asinine postings and remove all doubt? ""
Look, Jimbo, how could my quoting you and asking for proof of your claims be called "asinine".

Which part is asinine, me quoting you, or me asking you?

Besides, buddy, you asked me to make the postings and "pump up the volume".

So, where is proof of your claims?:


"The HAARP Project is another one and one that I also gave the name for."

"My studies on the atmosphere effects shut down the cold war."

"I had succeeded in becoming one of the best of the nuclear scientists and discovered a weapon that was even worse than the H-bomb."

"I also solved the mystery behind the Tunguska Blast in 1908."

"My discovery that the G-protein effects of fluoride-metal complexes caused the AIDS epidemic set off a national emergency."

"I also walked on these volcanoes barefoot, just as Moses did in his time."

"It was via Jim Phelps' knowledge of these relevant issues on Global Climate change and old world warfare that the HAARP and chemtrail methods were conceived or invented."

"The invention of JP-8 jet fuel formula was also an inadvertent Icon for Jim Phelps..."

"I invented "nanoscience" and the revolution in small atom scale materials to effect global systems effects."

"Jim Phelps is the father of the nano- science revolution that started at ORNL in the mid-1980's."

"My nano-science discoveries are being used to control global warming and global health, and are the essences of global systems science. It uses the secrets of the Ark of the Covenant and the secrets of 5,000 year old Egyptian metals sciences."

"I have managed to end the production of Freon in the US due to these issues and one can see that Freon was banned by Congress just after my discoveries."

"I am the fail-safe for these problems, a kind of Egyptian Anubis watchdog for the feather balance of right vs wrong."

"Jim Phelps is the national lab person that discovered serious issues in terminal event theory of global systems, invented Star Wars weapons, forced the DOE to begin clean up of pollution damaging workers and communities, discovered the air pharmacology techniques [aka chemtrails], and forced the closure of K-25 and other DOE plants. My projects in the DOE and DOD are more classified than the H-bomb."

"Jim Phelps is the inventor of the HAARP project, the discover that the Earth's magnetic field is an MHD generator, the discover of the critical factors of fluoide's on health..."

"Jim Phelps invented systems that protect the health of animals and man on a scale that dwarfs what Moses attempted..."

"I invented the titanium technique, which essentially blocks the onset of fluorosis due to fluoride in the food and water chain."

"Today, my titanium air pharmacology invention keeps the cattle of the US from getting things like "Mad Cow" syndrome from the fallout of fluorides onto grass."

"I have the ranking most powerful weapon system design in Star Wars that literally taps the power from a Star."

"My studies also solved the basic issues on the cause of AIDS in 1985."

"I had succeeded in becoming one of the best of the nuclear scientists and discovered a weapon that was even worse than the H-bomb."

"I had become more a destroyer of worlds, as Oppenheimer quoted from the "Gita."

"In the DOE, Jim Phelps is considered one step removed from God.."

[whitemajikman]

Jay You Have Been Stalking Me Since 2001.........And Wayne Since 2000..............

You cache every word we type on the internet and then use selected quotes out of context to further your propaganda that NO GEO-ENGINEERING Exist's...........Therefore No Chemtrails Exist.......

You Were Friends With William Cooper as was I before his death but Bill never Trusted You........and For Good reason..........YOU WERE INSTRUMENTAL IN HIS DEATH..........

You Can Play Your Little Game Jay..........BUT I KNOW WHO YOU WORK FOR..............AND I KNOW THEY THREATENED YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.........With The Same END............

That Is Why JAY REYNOLDS THE WORLD'S BIGGEST CHEMMIE IS NOW A DEBUNKER FOR THE GOVERNMENT ...........

You See Jay The TRUTH is not Elusive........and THE TRUTH IS THAT YOU ENGAGE IN CRIMINALITY..........

What Would Bill Think If He Was Still Alive........?

Because I Know He Is Rolling Over in His Grave Due To What You Have Become.........

You Failed Him.......

Just As You Are Now Failing Yourself..........

WMM

[jayreynolds]

Hey, whitey, any proof of any of what you posted above?
I thought not..................

[whitemajikman]

Hey, whitey, any proof of any of what you posted above?
I thought not..................

I HAVE AN IDEA .......YOU WANT PROOF..........THIS WILL BLOW YOUR MIND........PLUS IT WILL GO A LONG WAY TO YOU FINALLY REALIZING WHO YOU ARE DEALING WITH.......

YOU ALREADY KNOW MY FIRST AND LAST NAME COMPLIMENTS OF YAAK..........

GET IN TOUCH WITH THE COOPER FAMILY.......AND ASK THEM ABOUT THE NOW DEFUNCT ALBERTA INDY MEDIA........

BRING MY NAME UP.......

AND BE PREPARED TO HAVE A HEART ATTACK.........Because Not Only Did I KNOW BILL......HE WAS A VERY GOOD FRIEND AND FORMER BUSINESS PARTNER YOU SCHMUCK........

WMM

[jayreynolds]

I HAVE AN IDEA .......YOU WANT PROOF..........THIS WILL BLOW YOUR MIND........PLUS IT WILL GO A LONG WAY TO YOU FINALLY REALIZING WHO YOU ARE DEALING WITH.......
YOU ALREADY KNOW MY FIRST AND LAST NAME COMPLIMENTS OF YAAK..........
GET IN TOUCH WITH THE COOPER FAMILY.......AND ASK THEM ABOUT THE NOW DEFUNCT ALBERTA INDY MEDIA........
BRING MY NAME UP.......
AND BE PREPARED TO HAVE A HEART ATTACK.........Because Not Only Did I KNOW BILL......HE WAS A VERY GOOD FRIEND AND FORMER BUSINESS PARTNER YOU SCHMUCK........
WMM
You told me your name was Shawn. I am not in communication with Yaak. You also told me other lies when we spoke on the phone, in addition to the ones quoted below. You have proven yourself a liar, whiteyboy.

If you want to prove something, just do it or we can assume you are just telling another of your lies. I'm not wasting my time calling around for you. If you have proof, show it, otherwise things remain the same- no proof whatsoever.

[whitemajikman]

You told me your name was Shawn. I am not in communication with Yaak. You also told me other lies when we spoke on the phone, in addition to the ones quoted below. You have proven yourself a liar, whiteyboy.

If you want to prove something, just do it or we can assume you are just telling another of your lies. I'm not wasting my time calling around for you. If you have proof, show it, otherwise things remain the same- no proof whatsoever.


In Your Mind They Might Remain The Same.........But The Public Is Now aware Of The Blood On Your Hands........And the Choice You Made........

WMM

[whitemajikman]

You told me your name was Shawn. I am not in communication with Yaak. You also told me other lies when we spoke on the phone, in addition to the ones quoted below. You have proven yourself a liar, whiteyboy.

No Lies Were Ever Told To You JAY.......In That Phone Conversation.........It Was You Who Did Not want To Believe What I Said........Because I refused To Prove It To You......But Lets put this into perspective ......Prove Beyond a Shadow Of a Doubt That I Lied.....YOU CAN'T.......Because All You Got Is Your Own twisted Speculation Which is Not proof......Your RANTING'S AND OUT OF CONTEXT PROPAGANDA TOWARDS ME HAVE NO BEARING ON THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER.......WHICH IS I DID NOT LIE.........UNLIKE YOU WHEN YOU DECIDED TO SELL OUT BILL.......

If you want to prove something, just do it or we can assume you are just telling another of your lies. I'm not wasting my time calling around for you. If you have proof, show it, otherwise things remain the same- no proof whatsoever.

Things Don't remain The Same JAY.....Because When I Am Done With You........The Entire WORLD Will Know Your Part In Milton "Bill" Coopers Death..........Also The Reason You Will Not Contact The Family Is Because They Hate Your Guts And Will Not Respond To You......Because They Just Like I Know The Truth.........And The Truth Is You Have His Blood On Your Hands......If You Wish To Deny The Allegations So Be It........But Let The Public Realize That You Have Not denied Anything But Have Tried In Vain To Find Out To What extent I HAVE PROOF.........YOUR GUILTY JAY........AND YOU HAVE BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS............

WMM

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Looks to me like Jay Reynolds is a raging hate driven anti-Jewish / anti-semite person, all his words here of pure Hate directed at Jewish WMM.

Even my relatives go way back to this region and the very semetic Throne of David. My relatives stem from the Welphs and Guelfs of Italy and Germany, the Illuminiti and Bilderburg types, who came from this same semitic line.

I tend to tell it like it is, without the evil of money influencing my recall of history.


Jay Reynolds is nothing but a preacher for hate.

[jayreynolds]

Looks to me like Jay Reynolds is a raging hate driven anti-Jewish / anti-semite person, all his words here of pure Hate directed at Jewish WMM.

Even my relatives go way back to this region and the very semetic Throne of David. My relatives stem from the Welphs and Guelfs of Italy and Germany, the Illuminiti and Bilderburg types, who came from this same semitic line.

I tend to tell it like it is, without the evil of money influencing my recall of history.


Jay Reynolds is nothing but a preacher for hate.

But, Jimbo, just yesterday you posted:
JESUS WAS NOT A JEW
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=380637&postcount=34

And today you posted :
60 reasons for hating Jews
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=382760&postcount=53
SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE PRETTY MIXED UP, JIMBO!!!
You need to explain what you mean, Jimbo, are you a Jew as David was, is Whitey a Jew, or not, and which of the sixty reasons should we use to hate him????

[whitemajikman]

And today you posted :
60 reasons for hating Jews
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=382760&postcount=53
SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE PRETTY MIXED UP, JIMBO!!!
You need to explain what you mean, Jimbo, are you a Jew as David was, is Whitey a Jew, or not, and which of the sixty reasons should we use to hate him????[/QUOTE]


JAY YOU ARE PROVING YOURSELF TO BE QUITE THE PURVEYOR OF NEOCON PROPAGANDA...........

AND A TRAITOR TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY.........

AGAIN YOU ARE GUILTY OF TAKING THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT ...........

THIS IS WHAT JIM SAID.......

In a 2003 article, "It Ain't Arabs" Steele gives about 60 reasons for hating Jews. Some relate to his personal experience. But 90% result from the actions of Jews (including Zionists) who were/are manipulated and empowered by the London banking cartel. They do not apply to a majority of North American Jews who like myself are opposed to Zionism in its current form and alienated from mainstream Judaism........

And this Is The 60 Reasons That STEELE Gives.......

It wasn't Arabs who tried to steal my law practice - it was a jew.
It wasn't Arabs who threatened to kill my children and wife - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who threatened to kill me - and continue to do so with regularity - it was/is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who screwed the stockholders of the company I worked for in SF - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs who fill my email inbox with pornographic spam - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who send all those viruses to me over the Internet - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who try to get my ISP to cancel my internet access - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who periodically forge mass spam mailings to so many, using my domain name - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who send me all that incredibly vituperative, irrational and pornographic hate mail - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who blocked my PayPal account and stole the balance it contained - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who painted a bullseye on my chest by labeling me one of "40 to watch" - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs who have made it all but impossible for me to work as a lawyer - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who maintain a dossier on me and draw from it to defame me on every venue possible - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who have been bent upon bankrupting and imprisoning so many that I know - it was and is jews.
It isn't Arabs who have arrested and imprisoned Chester Doles as a felon in possession of a gun, though he is no felon and owned no guns - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who indicted David Duke on tax evasion charges that were pure speculation, forcing a plea deal and a 1-year prison sentence because he dared not go before a jury - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who arrested Artie Wheeler for domestic terrorism because he had firearm reloading equipment and supplies - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who arrested and imprisoned Christine Greenwood for distributing clothing to needy white children - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who sued and bankrupted Richard Butler because he provided shelter to some derelicts who stupidly shot at some people - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who had Ernst Zundel deported to Canada - it was jews - where he now stands accused of thought crimes - by jews - for which he could get deported again, to Germany, where he will be tried for more thought crimes - by jews.
It wasn't Arabs who sued and bankrupted Tom Metzger because one of his followers stupidly killed another - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs who have hijacked my government - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who have hijacked the American legal system and now are transforming it to conform to Talmudic law - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who own and run the Federal Reserve Bank, which is in the process of destroying the dollar and the American economy - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs rigging the US stock market and commodities futures markets - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who sent our military into Afghanistan and Iraq - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs who refuse to serve in the US Military in numbers proportionate to their population percentage - it is jews (1/10 of 1%, vs. 2-1/2%).
It wasn't Arabs who sued to remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who sued to remove the Ten Commandments from that Alabama courthouse, had Judge Moore removed from the bench and now seek to disbar him - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who sue to remove nativity scenes from public venues - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who erect menorahs in public venues in place of crosses - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who sued to remove group prayer from public schools - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs suing to remove decorative lights from schools at Christmas - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs who refuse to allow children to say grace over their school lunches - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who continue to impose affirmative action upon us in all walks of life - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who began and continue to expand militant feminism - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who buy off all our legislators with our own tax dollars - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who tried to sink the USS Liberty and killed and maimed so many of its crewmembers during an extended attack - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs enacting hate crime laws designed to outlaw criticism of themselves - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who run NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association) - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs suing to force us to allow homosexuals to lead boy scout troops - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who started and ran so many black organizations like the NAACP - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs importing huge numbers of Somalians and Bantu into American cities - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who formulated American legislation providing pensions to Russian jewish immigrants for doing nothing - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs who run organized crime throughout America - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who import tons of drugs into America every day - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who literally own and run all of Hollywood's moviemaking enterprise - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who literally own and run all of America's mainstream media - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs spewing obscenity and race-mixing propaganda from the TV and movie screens - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs trying mightily to block release of the Mel Gibson movie, "The Passion" - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs lying about and guilt tripping us with "the holocaust" - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs stealing American tax dollars to fund all their holocaust monuments throughout America - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who forged the Anne Frank "diary" - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who lied about gas chambers at Dachau and Auschwitz - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who lied about mass graves at Treblinka - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who lied about jews being made into lamp shades and soap during WWII - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who doctored WWII prison camp photos to appear to be belching smoke from crematoria - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who used WWII pictures of dead non jews, claiming they were jews - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who made anti-semitical talk punishable by death in Russia after they took power - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who killed over 20 million Russian Christians - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who looted and destroyed the Russian economy - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs who have amassed an illegal arsenal of over 300 nuclear weapons in the Middle East - it is the jews.
It isn't Arabs who brag about controlling America - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who advocate the use of torture by and on Americans - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who twist American laws to punish anti-semitical speech - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs endeavoring to get America to outlaw anti-semitical speech - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who sell goods that it is illegal in America to boycott - it is Israeli jews.
It isn't Arabs who extort "fees" for allowing their kosher label on goods - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who retaliate against rock-throwing children by shooting them in the head - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs stealing land in Palestine - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who ran down Rachel Corrie with a bulldozer - it was a jew.
It isn't Arabs who have caused America to spend $2.5 trillion ($31,250 per American family) in the Middle East - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who send teams of trained assassins into foreign countries, including America, to kill people with whom Israel disagrees - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who run the ADL, which maintains dossiers on thousands of law-abiding American citizens, for the purpose of punishing those with whom they disagree - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who break into and enter the offices and homes of law-abiding American citizens, to procure evidence both for their database and in the hopes of getting evidence they can pass to the FBI for prosecution - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who have caused America to go from being the most-loved country in the world to the most hated - it is jews.

Finally, though most won't believe it (all the preceding are facts - provable facts):
It isn't Arabs who regularly phony up "hate crimes" against themselves - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who caused the Great Depression - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who started WWI - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who started WWII - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who killed JFK - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who demolished the World Trade Center - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs bent upon destroying Christianity - it is jews.

CONTINUED.....

[Insurrectionchemistry]

WMM:

""JAY YOU ARE PROVING YOURSELF TO BE QUITE THE PURVEYOR OF NEOCON PROPAGANDA...........

AND A TRAITOR TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY.........

AGAIN YOU ARE GUILTY OF TAKING THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT ...........

THIS IS WHAT JIM SAID.......""


====================


Yes he is, but did anyone expect anything less than pure "deceit and treachery" from the GOP's crooked Reynolds.


The article listed was a rather well balanced and insightful one by Henry Makow and the credits were clearly attributed to him. The article's subject was about how the London Bankers attempt to incite untrue factors to "divide and conquer. " Jay Reynolds attempts to mimic this method for his Big Money GOP elite's objectives that worship the London Bankers.


It is the same old story. The Jews had long wanted the area of Israel, so they secured some loans for the UK in the war and had a promise note called the "Balfore Letter." The German's wanted the Jews to go to Palenstine, the Russian's wanted the Jews to go to Palestine.

The UK had control of Palestine and when when the UK paid off the Balfore note, they just took the lands of Palestine's Arabs peoples and put them in camps and never gave them a penny. The UK's Bankers did not want real money put back into making things right.


Both the UK and the US knew that doing that would eventually lead to the Arabs pushing the Zionist Jews into the Mediterranean. Especially, if they played up the Zionist interpretations of Torah and Talmud, which omits the wisdom of the ages. Torah and Talmud involve histories that are supposed to teach wisdom, and avoiding repeating the mistakes that came before. It was a way to destabilize the region and make more money from the wars that would come. Just like the Big European Bankers made money in the US Civil war, the killing of JFK to promote more wars, and now with the Iraq war.

Israel is the most armed state in the Middle East, and feared by all Arab countries because of the huge lack of balance of power involved. The loss of balanced that produced the faked up Iraq war for Zionism and Oil.


What is truely "anti-semetic" is the UK and US placing both semetic sides at against each other and seeking to make money off it.

Since persons, like crooked GOP Jay Reynolds, have always supported the Big Money GOP's line, this makes Jay Reynolds part of the ultimate elite line of anti-semetic, anti-jewish, hate criminals.

Jay Reynolds is a person with lots of blood money in his hands that he can't ever wash away.


GOP crook Jay Reynolds is also into how to cover up human induced global warming, so his big GOP Bankers won't have to pay off for that harm caused either. He loves to lie about how the world now sees lines in the skies that attempt to change jet aircraft global warming potential effects that worsen global warming without making for clouds.

[whitemajikman]

Now The Above 60 Reasons Are Just a SMALL MINUTE GLIMPSE of what crimes Zionism and JEWS whom Support ZIONISM are Guilty Of.......WILL THEY EVER BE PUNISHED FOR THEIR CRIMES..........? NOT IN NORTH AMERICA..............AND DO YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY.....?

BECAUSE WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.......THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT SINCE JFK 'S MURDER HAS BEEN A ZIONIST STRONGHOLD...........IT IS IMPORTANT FOR AMERICANS TO REALIZE THAT THEY HAVE ALL BEEN DECEIVED FOR A VERY LONG TIME......REGARDING WHO IS HOLDING THE REIGNS OF POWER FOR THEIR COUNTRY......THE TRUTH IS ZIONIST BANKING ESTABLISHMENTS THAT GAINED CONTROL DURING THE GREAT DEPRESSION HAVE CONTROLLED ALL ASPECTS OF FORIEGN POLICY AND HAVE RAPED AMERICA OF IT'S DIGNITY .........

I KNOW IT'S HARD FOR ALL OF YOU TO ACCEPT............BUT IT IS THE CASE.......

HOW ELSE DID A MINUTE PRECENTAGE OF THE GLOBAL POPULATION BASE THAT ZIONISTIC JEWRY REPRESENTS BECOME SO POWERFUL IN SUCH A SHORT TIME........

I WILL TELL YOU HOW......

THEY FOLLOWED A BLUEBRINT.........

A BLUEPRINT THAT HAS BECOME KNOW AS A FORGERY DUE TO THE VERY ZIONIST'S WHO CREATED IT USING PROPAGANDA AND POWER TO ILLICITE THEIR WILL AND SWEARING THAT IT IS A HOAX.........

SOME HOAX FOLKS.......

THE DOCUMENT I REFER TO IS CALLED "THE PROTOCOLS OF THE LEARNED ELDERS OF ZION"

IT IS A BLUEPRINT FOR WORLD DOMINATION THAT WAS EMRACED BY EARLY PROPONENTS OF ZIONISM ......

PLEASE READ THEM AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MINDS.........

BUT ALSO KEEP IN MIND THAT THE VERY PEOPLE WHO HAVE SAID OVER THE YEARS THAT THIS DOCUMENT IS A HOAX.........ARE OF A ZIONIST IDEAL.......

IN OTHER WORDS THEY WERE ZIONIST'S THEMSELVES.........HOW CONVENIENT....

HERE IS THE TABLE OF CONTENTS........

Preface
Introduction
Who are the Elders?
Protocol I The Basic Doctrine
Protocol II Economic Wars
Protocol III Methods of Conquest
Protocol IV Materialism Replaces Religion
Protocol V Despotism and Modern Progress
Protocol VI Take-Over Technique
Protocol VII World-Wide Wars
Protocol VIII Provisional Government
Protocol IX Re-education
Protocol X Preparing for Power
Protocol XI The Totalitarian State
Protocol XII Control of the Press
Protocol XIII Distractions
Protocol XIV Assault on Religion
Protocol XV Ruthless Suppression
Protocol XVI Brainwashing
Protocol XVII Abuse of Authority
Protocol XVIII Arrest of Opponents
Protocol XIX Rulers and People
Protocol XX Financial Programme
Protocol XXI Loans and Credit
Protocol XXII Power of Gold
Protocol XXIII Instilling Obedience
Protocol XXIV Qualities of the Ruler

AND THE COMPLETE TEXT CAN BE READ IN IT'S ENTIRETY HERE......

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm

NOW HERE IS THE KICKER

I MYSELF AM A JEW .......A JEW WHO WANTS THE WORLD TO KNOW ABOUT THE EVIL OF ZIONISM......AND THAT ISRAEL DOES NOT REPRESENT WORLD JEWRY.....BUT IS AN INSTRUMENT OF THE ZIONIST IDEAL HELL BENT ON WORLD DOMINATION.......

AND FOLKS LAUGH ALL YOU LIKE......

BUT IF YOU ARE AN AMERICAN ........YOUR COUNTRY HAS ALREADY BEEN DOMINATED AND IS UNDER THE CONTROL OF THIS CRIMINAL WORLD MONOPOLY......CALLED ZIONISM.......

WMM

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Very True.

Amerca's True Freedom has been long gone with hardly a show being fired, just as Russia predicted.

Which is why China and Russia fear the US, like the Arab's fear Israel.



The USA is run by Criminals.


http://tvnewslies.org/html/why_is_george_w__bush_above_th.html


Why Is George W. Bush Above the Law?


To date, George Bush has done absolutely nothing at about removing the criminals in his own WH. The Fitzgerald investigation is winding down, and in a few weeks we will see what we will see. Don’t hold your breath that justice will be done. George Bush, Karl Rove, and all the rest are above the law. On the other hand, without word one from the media, Bush as continued to appoint criminals to sensitive government positions. Do a web search for the felons that Bush has appointed to his government. Criminals are welcomed in the Bush White House.

[whitemajikman]

Very True.

Amerca's True Freedom has been long gone with hardly a show being fired, just as Russia predicted.

Which is why China and Russia fear the US, like the Arab's fear Israel.

VERY TRUE JIM......AND I AGREE.......

AND ALSO BEFORE JAY CAN START USING THE #1 WEAPON IN THE ZIONIST ARSENAL WHICH IS THE WORD "ANTI-SEMITE".........

HERE IS AN ARTICLE THAT PUT'S IT ALL INTO PERSPECTIVE.......IN IT'S ENTIRETY......

A crude attempt to equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism
By Jean Shaoul
22 December 2003
Use this version to print | Send this link by email | Email the author

A recent article in the British newspaper, the Guardian, provides a noxious example of the concerted effort being orchestrated by the Zionist political establishment to rubbish all criticism of its murderous policy towards the Palestinian people.

In an op-ed piece headlined Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism: behind much criticism of Israel is a thinly veiled hatred of the Jews, Emanuele Ottolenghi attempts to equate any opposition to Zionism and the colonial policies of the Israeli state with hatred of the Jewish people in general and the infamous and reactionary anti-Semitism of the Nazis in particular.

Ottolenghi holds an unpaid post at the privately endowed Oxford Centre for Hebrew and Jewish Studies and the Middle East Centre at St Anthony’s College, Oxford. But by no stretch of the imagination can his article be described as a scholarly piece of work. His is an attempt on behalf of Israel’s international backers to silence opposition to Ariel Sharon’s regime and to legitimise its Greater Israel policy and brutality towards a people who bear absolutely no responsibility for the Holocaust, which is evoked by Ottolenghi as a bludgeon against Zionism’s opponents.

His article offers total indemnity for Israel’s crimes against the Palestinians and a carte blanche for Sharon to do whatever he likes. Using the politics of amalgam, Ottolenghi links anyone who criticises the Israeli state with anti-Semitism, irrespective of their political views. As far as Ottolenghi is concerned it is impermissible to note that Israel’s policies towards the Palestinians are reminiscent of those employed by the Nazis. Such an equation between victims and murderers, he says, denies the Holocaust. “Worse still, it provides its retroactive justification for the Holocaust: if Jews turned out to be so evil, perhaps they deserved what they got,” he continued.

This argument is made up from whole cloth. One does not have to deny the extermination of European Jewry in the Nazi gas chambers to say that Israel’s dispossession, subjugation and enclosure of the Palestinian people bears a striking resemblance to the policies of the Nazis towards the Jews, Poles, gypsies, other ethnic minorities and political opponents. To acknowledge this is not to equate the criminal actions of the Zionists against the Palestinians with the Holocaust, which was on a far greater scale of barbarism. But it legitimately identifies what is a tragic irony of history—that the Jewish people, so long associated with the struggle for social progress and against all forms of discrimination, racism and oppression, should themselves be perpetrating gross human rights violations against an oppressed people. Indeed such comments are often framed as an appeal to the Jews’ sense of history and social conscience—something that will be lost on political criminals such as Sharon and his apologists.

The Sharon government and the Zionist establishment routinely utilise the lie that their opponents are anti-Semitic. Ottolenghi runs with this by inventing a “counter-argument” from an imaginary accused that reeks of racism.

“Jewish defenders of Israel are then depicted by their critics as seeking an excuse to justify Israel, projecting Jewish paranoia and displaying a ‘typical’ Jewish trait of ‘sticking together’, even in defending the morally indefensible.”

Later he lists what he claims are anti-Semitic themes used repeatedly by anti-Zionists—“the Jewish conspiracy to rule the world, linking Jews with money and media, the hooked-nose stingy Jew, the blood libel, disparaging use of Jewish symbols, or traditional Christian anti-Jewish imagery—are used to describe Israel’s actions”.

Who says this? Ottolenghi never quotes a single concrete example, except for reference to an Italian cartoon and to Labour MP Tam Dalyell’s reference to a “Jewish cabal” having influence on British foreign policy. This author cannot vouch for the Italian cartoon he cites, but the World Socialist Web Site has written on the attack made on Dalyell (See “Britain: Labour extends antiwar witch-hunt to Tam Dalyell”). But the essential message is that all anti-Zionists “repeatedly” resort to crude anti-Semitic attacks. And he can find no proof of this at all.

Ottolenghi’s claims are fundamentally dishonest and are contradicted by the fact that many of those critical of Sharon’s brutal treatment of the Palestinians are themselves both Israelis and Jews. To cite but one example, more than 100,000 Israeli Jews, appalled by Sharon’s actions, attended a rally in November to commemorate the eighth anniversary of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzakh Rabin’s assassination by a right-wing zealot. Demonstrators carried banners opposing the occupation and demanding peace.

He responds to Jewish critics of Zionism in typical fashion, with the claim that they are essentially traitors who are praised by the anti-Zionist/anti-Semitic lobby precisely because they have sold out: “Jews condemning Israel and rejecting Zionism earn their praise. Denouncing Israel becomes a passport to full integration. Noam Chomsky and his imitators are the new heroes, their Jewish pride and identity expressed solely through their shame for Israel’s existence.”


The Holocaust and the Zionist state

Here is the hub of Ottolenghi’s argument. To be Jewish is ipso facto to be Zionist. His assertion that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism rests on this identification between the actions of the Israeli state and the interests of the Jewish people as a whole. Such an equation is historically and factually incorrect.

The Holocaust was a seminal historical experience not just for the Jews, but for working people all over the world. It was the single most grotesque example of fascist barbarism during World War II.

Against the background of the economic ruination of Germany that followed World War I, Hitler set about building a mass social base for his party among petty bourgeois layers and lumpen workers by scapegoating the Jews for the decline in their living standards. Hitler certainly utilised populist attacks on Jewish “usurers” and businessmen, but his hatred of the Jews was bound up with his fear of Marxism and Germany’s powerful socialist workers’ movement in which Jewish workers and intellectuals played such a prominent role.

The defeat of fascism and the struggle against anti-Semitism was, therefore, bound up with a unified political offensive by the working class not just against fascism but the entire bourgeois order. But this was prevented from happening by the combined betrayals of Stalinism and social democracy that disoriented the millions of workers opposed to the Nazis and had allowed Hitler to come to power.

The Zionists had a very different perspective. They insisted that the anti-Semitism that gave rise to the Holocaust could only be answered by the removal of the Jewish people to their biblical homeland and the establishment of their own state. For the Zionists, the solution offered to the Jewish proletariat and intelligentsia lay in establishing a new capitalist state, not in joining their class brothers and sisters in the struggle to put an end to capitalism.

The establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 rested upon the decisions and machinations of the major powers at the United Nations. It was viewed with sympathy by millions of people around the world appalled at the catastrophe that had befallen the Jews and was accompanied by rhetoric that attempted to identify Zionism with the labour movement, equality and socialism as a way of legitimising it in the eyes of class conscious Jews. The horrors of the concentration camps thus played a crucial role in Israel’s birth.


CONTINUED......

[whitemajikman]

Israel’s historical and political record

But what is at issue now, 55 years later, is the historical and political record of Zionism, an examination of which Ottolenghi attempts to rule out of bounds. For him any objective appraisal of what the Israeli state has done constitutes rampant anti-Semitism. This serves a very definite purpose. The inability to examine Israel’s history without the Zionists raising the spectre of anti-Semitism and the Holocaust is not only a slur on the motives of their critics. It makes it impossible to understand anything politically.

Ottolenghi claims that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic because it singles out Israel to be judged by an “impossibly high standard” not applied elsewhere. This is a diversion. People have every right to “single out” a country that illegally occupies Palestinian land and brutally oppresses its inhabitants, particularly when this is only possibly because it has the financial, political and military backing of the United States—which itself constitutes one of the many crimes of the world’s major imperialist power.

For him, “Israel errs like all other nations: it is normal”. He says, “Israel deserves to be judged by the same standards adopted for others, not by the standards of utopia”. The World Socialist Web Site agrees with his last point. Let us examine the record.

Israel’s founding was carried out through the forcible expulsion of the indigenous Palestinian people. This was not just the result of a war that led people to flee their homes, but the explicit policy of the political progenitors of the present Likud government—the Zionist terror groups—that was given the nod by Israel’s founding fathers and first Prime Minister David Ben Gurion, as Israeli historians have acknowledged.

Since then Israel has fought numerous wars, including unprovoked wars of aggression against other countries: Egypt in 1956 and Lebanon in 1978 and 1982. Israel has openly defied numerous United Nations resolutions. It has repeatedly breached international law in relation to the West Bank and Gaza, which it has illegally occupied since 1967. It has appropriated territory to itself, including East Jerusalem and the land and villages for more than 200 settlements.

Israeli armed forces have carried out repeated incursions into Palestinian cities. They and Zionist settlers have killed more than 2,500 Palestinians, the great majority of which were unarmed civilians and many of them children, since the start of the Intifada in September 2000.

As one of the most violent governments in the world, Israel has demolished people’s homes, destroyed farms and uprooted olive groves, closed roads and instituted curfews, crippling the Palestinian economy and bringing people to the brink of starvation. It regularly detains people without trial. Torture and inhumane treatment of detainees is routine. Israel has exiled people. It has a declared policy of political assassination of its opponents.

Israel’s policy of closing roads not only to and from but also within the West Bank and Gaza, combined with its infamous security wall that separates the West Bank from Israel, has created a ghetto for the Palestinians. The conditions for the vast majority of those who live in the Gaza Strip, separated off from Israel by means an electrified barbed wire fence and denied any means of earning a living, resemble those of a giant concentration camp.

Israel is a nuclear state that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty or let international inspectors examine its facilities. Yet everyone knows that Israel has developed more than 200 such weapons and has an extensive biological and chemical weapons programme. If Israel’s nuclear weapons have gone unpublicised thus far it is because Israel serves as the custodian of US interests in the Middle East. It has even said that it will take pre-emptive strike action against Iran, which it claims has begun to develop nuclear weapons in violation of its international obligations to destroy its nuclear facilities as it did against Iraq in 1981.

The US has bankrolled Israel to the tune of billions of dollars a year for decades in the form of military aid, most of which must be spent in the US.

Israel is the only country in the world led by a man that its own judicial commission found was personally responsible for failing to protect the Palestinians in Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps from the murderous Phalangist thugs in 1982 and judged him to be unfit to serve as a minister of state. Sharon heads a government which rests upon ultra-nationalist parties that openly call for ethnic cleansing under the euphemism of “population transfer”.

Within Israel itself, the government operates a policy towards the Palestinian Israelis reminiscent of the infamous apartheid regime in South Africa. It discriminates against its Arab citizens, curtails their political rights and denies them a fair share of economic resources and social welfare. It has recently passed legislation denying Israeli citizens who marry Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza the right to live with their partners in Israel.

The Sharon government does not represent the interests of the majority of the Jewish people who live in Israel, let alone the Jewish people all over the world. It is the political representative of a section of Israel’s financial elite and a proxy of the Bush administration in the US.

More than 10 percent of the Israeli workforce is unemployed. Many more are impoverished. The Sharon government is pursuing a relentless attack on jobs, living standards and the social safety net in an attempt to shift the burden of Israel’s precipitous economic decline in the wake of the world recession and the impact of the Palestinian Intifada onto the backs of workers and their families. Finance Minister Benyamin Netanyahu recently announced the introduction of legislation curbing the right to strike by public sector workers and the gutting of social welfare.

What the record shows is that Israel deserves international condemnation for its flagrant breech of international law and its brutal and repressive policies.


CONTINUED......

[whitemajikman]

The Zionist state and the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe

Ottolenghi does make one correct point when he admits, “There is no doubt that recent anti-Semitism is linked to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.”

He quickly retreats from this admission, however, when he goes on to insists that anyone who draws any political conclusions as to what this says about the character and viability of the Zionist project or does not still lend unconditional support to Israel is an anti-Semite: “The argument that it is Israel’s behaviour, and Jewish support for it, that invite prejudice sounds hollow at best and sinister at worst. That argument means that sympathy for Jews is conditional on the political views they espouse. This is hardly an expression of tolerance. It singles Jews out. It is anti-semitism.”

Unquestionably one of the most potent factors re-igniting anti-Semitism today is the brutal methods adopted by the Israeli government under Sharon. A leaked European Union report shows a rise in the number of attacks on Jews by European Muslim youth. The report, compiled by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia, links a rise in attacks on Jews with events in the Middle East, particularly since the start of the Palestinian Intifada in September 2000 and Israel’s attack on Jenin in the West Bank in April last year.

To recognise this fact is not to endorse anti-Semitic views or to defend those who hold them. But the political basis for a dangerous emergence of anti-Semitism amongst often politically uneducated second generation Arab and African immigrants cannot be ignored. One can only combat such a noxious development by advancing a principled opposition to both the Zionist state and to those, such as the Islamic fundamentalists and Arab bourgeois leaders, who employ populist anti-Semitism to manipulate political discontent. Silence on Sharon’s crimes or, worst still an apologia for them as provided by Ottolenghi, only fosters anti-Semitism.

It also strengthens right-wing forces on a world scale.

The Sharon government rests upon two fascistic parties, one based on right wing hooligans and thugs that inhabit the settlements in the Occupied Territories and another that openly promotes the “transfer” of the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza. Its survival is entirely dependent upon the Bush administration and billions of dollars of military aid and loans.

There is a growing alliance between the right-wing Zionists and the extreme-right Christian fundamentalists in the US. The Zionist right has aligned itself—on the basis of anti-Arab chauvinism and military aggression against Iraq—with groups in the US and also Europe that have a long history of anti-Semitism. Only a few weeks ago Sharon was being entertained by one of his most ardent supporters in Europe, Silvio Berlusconi, the prime minister of Italy who made headlines and sparked outrage recently when he came to the defence of Mussolini, the fascist dictator, when he claimed, “Mussolini never killed anyone. Mussolini used to send people on vacation in internal exile.” On November 25 Sharon went one better, playing host to Italy’s deputy prime minister, Gianfranco Fini, the leader of the National Alliance, the political heir of Mussolini’s fascist party.

In the mid-1990s Fini was still describing Mussolini as “the greatest statesman of the 20th century.” He now condemns what he calls “the shameful chapters in the history of our people”. But what really endears him to Sharon is Fini’s support for Israel’s repression of the Palestinians and the construction of the fence. As far as Sharon is concerned, support for Israel today erases any whiff of anti-Semitism, even for supporters of fascists that sought the extermination of European Jewry.

That the Zionist state should seek such allies and become one of the major factors spawning anti-Semitism is indeed another of history’s tragic ironies. Such reactionary outcomes are a far cry from the safe haven, free from oppression and discrimination, that the creation of Israel appeared to offer Jews in the aftermath of World War II and the Holocaust. But they are the inevitable product of the Zionist project of establishing a capitalist state created through the dispossession of another people and maintained by war and repression abroad and social exploitation and inequality at home. It is impossible for such a state to provide the foundations for establishing social justice and equality, even for its own citizens.

The failure of the Zionist project is not the result of any inadequacies on the part of the Jewish people but an expression of the failure of all movements in the Middle East, Africa and Asia that have based themselves upon the perspective of nationalism to resolve the fundamental social, economic and political problems confronting the mass of working people.

It is time to recognise that Zionism has been a terrible and failed experiment. Its continuation promises only further oppression for both Palestinians and Israelis and the most bitter war.

The only way out of the current impasse is the development of a political movement to unite Arab and Jewish workers and intellectuals in a common struggle against capitalism and for the building of a socialist society. This provides the only way of redressing the historic injustices suffered by the Palestinian workers and peasants, and ending the twin evils of oppression and war that are fuelled by the profit drive of both international capital and both the Israeli and Arab national ruling cliques. The creation of a United Socialist States of the Middle East would remove the artificial borders imposed by imperialist intrigues that presently divide the peoples and economies of the region so as to utilise the resources to fulfil the social, economic and political aspirations of all.


WMM

[halva]

Hold on there, Hoss. What you are asking these people, not yet in your camp, to do is legalize something you regard as harmful????
Oh. man, how logical this Wayne Hall really is.............NOT


"Thanks for forwarding this information as it makes for fascinating
discussion. I agree with the premise that if geoengineering is occurring
then this information should be made public."
David J. Travis

Go on Raynolds. See if you can frighten him.

[halva]

By the way, it is true that I have not quoted everything David Travis said.

[whitemajikman]

I HAD TO ADD THIS WAYNE BECAUSE IT REALLY DOES PROVE THAT THE GOVERNMENT KNEW BEFORE ACADEMIA THAT CONTRAIL/CHEMTRAILS COULD HELP MITIGATE GLOBAL WARMING............

"Our findings indicate that the diurnal temperature range averaged across the United States was increased during the aircraft-grounding period, despite large variations in the amount of cloud associated with mobile weather systems (Fig. 2). We argue that the absence of contrails was responsible for the difference between a period of above-normal but unremarkable DTR and the anomalous conditions that were recorded."

DAVID J. TRAVIS

[halva]

The point is that Travis supports point two of the following resolution
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=381613&postcount=7328

that BC characterised as a waste of time compiling.

[halva]

Of course saying that something should be made public is not the same as saying that something should be legalized, but could a scientist propose that his government should make public that it is doing something illegal?

[jayreynolds]

THIS IS WHAT JIM SAID.......
It wasn't Arabs who tried to steal my law practice - it was a jew.
It wasn't Arabs who threatened to kill my children and wife - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who threatened to kill me - and continue to do so with regularity - it was/is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who screwed the stockholders of the company I worked for in SF - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs who fill my email inbox with pornographic spam - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who send all those viruses to me over the Internet - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who try to get my ISP to cancel my internet access - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who periodically forge mass spam mailings to so many, using my domain name - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who send me all that incredibly vituperative, irrational and pornographic hate mail - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who blocked my PayPal account and stole the balance it contained - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who painted a bullseye on my chest by labeling me one of "40 to watch" - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs who have made it all but impossible for me to work as a lawyer - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who maintain a dossier on me and draw from it to defame me on every venue possible - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who have been bent upon bankrupting and imprisoning so many that I know - it was and is jews.
It isn't Arabs who have arrested and imprisoned Chester Doles as a felon in possession of a gun, though he is no felon and owned no guns - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who indicted David Duke on tax evasion charges that were pure speculation, forcing a plea deal and a 1-year prison sentence because he dared not go before a jury - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who arrested Artie Wheeler for domestic terrorism because he had firearm reloading equipment and supplies - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who arrested and imprisoned Christine Greenwood for distributing clothing to needy white children - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who sued and bankrupted Richard Butler because he provided shelter to some derelicts who stupidly shot at some people - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who had Ernst Zundel deported to Canada - it was jews - where he now stands accused of thought crimes - by jews - for which he could get deported again, to Germany, where he will be tried for more thought crimes - by jews.
It wasn't Arabs who sued and bankrupted Tom Metzger because one of his followers stupidly killed another - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs who have hijacked my government - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who have hijacked the American legal system and now are transforming it to conform to Talmudic law - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who own and run the Federal Reserve Bank, which is in the process of destroying the dollar and the American economy - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs rigging the US stock market and commodities futures markets - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who sent our military into Afghanistan and Iraq - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs who refuse to serve in the US Military in numbers proportionate to their population percentage - it is jews (1/10 of 1%, vs. 2-1/2%).
It wasn't Arabs who sued to remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who sued to remove the Ten Commandments from that Alabama courthouse, had Judge Moore removed from the bench and now seek to disbar him - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who sue to remove nativity scenes from public venues - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who erect menorahs in public venues in place of crosses - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who sued to remove group prayer from public schools - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs suing to remove decorative lights from schools at Christmas - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs who refuse to allow children to say grace over their school lunches - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who continue to impose affirmative action upon us in all walks of life - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who began and continue to expand militant feminism - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who buy off all our legislators with our own tax dollars - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who tried to sink the USS Liberty and killed and maimed so many of its crewmembers during an extended attack - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs enacting hate crime laws designed to outlaw criticism of themselves - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who run NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association) - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs suing to force us to allow homosexuals to lead boy scout troops - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who started and ran so many black organizations like the NAACP - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs importing huge numbers of Somalians and Bantu into American cities - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who formulated American legislation providing pensions to Russian jewish immigrants for doing nothing - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs who run organized crime throughout America - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who import tons of drugs into America every day - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who literally own and run all of Hollywood's moviemaking enterprise - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who literally own and run all of America's mainstream media - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs spewing obscenity and race-mixing propaganda from the TV and movie screens - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs trying mightily to block release of the Mel Gibson movie, "The Passion" - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs lying about and guilt tripping us with "the holocaust" - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs stealing American tax dollars to fund all their holocaust monuments throughout America - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who forged the Anne Frank "diary" - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who lied about gas chambers at Dachau and Auschwitz - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who lied about mass graves at Treblinka - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who lied about jews being made into lamp shades and soap during WWII - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who doctored WWII prison camp photos to appear to be belching smoke from crematoria - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who used WWII pictures of dead non jews, claiming they were jews - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who made anti-semitical talk punishable by death in Russia after they took power - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who killed over 20 million Russian Christians - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who looted and destroyed the Russian economy - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs who have amassed an illegal arsenal of over 300 nuclear weapons in the Middle East - it is the jews.
It isn't Arabs who brag about controlling America - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who advocate the use of torture by and on Americans - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who twist American laws to punish anti-semitical speech - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs endeavoring to get America to outlaw anti-semitical speech - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who sell goods that it is illegal in America to boycott - it is Israeli jews.
It isn't Arabs who extort "fees" for allowing their kosher label on goods - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who retaliate against rock-throwing children by shooting them in the head - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs stealing land in Palestine - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who ran down Rachel Corrie with a bulldozer - it was a jew.
It isn't Arabs who have caused America to spend $2.5 trillion ($31,250 per American family) in the Middle East - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who send teams of trained assassins into foreign countries, including America, to kill people with whom Israel disagrees - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who run the ADL, which maintains dossiers on thousands of law-abiding American citizens, for the purpose of punishing those with whom they disagree - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who break into and enter the offices and homes of law-abiding American citizens, to procure evidence both for their database and in the hopes of getting evidence they can pass to the FBI for prosecution - it is jews.
It isn't Arabs who have caused America to go from being the most-loved country in the world to the most hated - it is jews.

Finally, though most won't believe it (all the preceding are facts - provable facts):
It isn't Arabs who regularly phony up "hate crimes" against themselves - it is jews.
It wasn't Arabs who caused the Great Depression - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who started WWI - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who started WWII - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who killed JFK - it was jews.
It wasn't Arabs who demolished the World Trade Center - it was jews.
It isn't Arabs bent upon destroying Christianity - it is jews.

Thanks for bringing Jim's hateful beliefs to the forefront, whitey.

[jayreynolds]

By the way, it is true that I have not quoted everything David Travis said.
Why not?
Did he give you permission to quote him at all, especially out of context for any purpose you wanted?

[jayreynolds]

What is truely "anti-semetic" is the UK and US placing both semetic sides at against each other and seeking to make money off it.
For someone who claims to have descended from the Throne of David, you are not even able to correctly spell the term Semitic.

You are really a joke, Jimbo.
An endless supply of humor.

[halva]

Why not?
Did he give you permission to quote him at all, especially out of context for any purpose you wanted?

Did David Sington give YOU permission to quote his personal correspondence on this forum for purposes the exact opposite of the purpose for which he made his 'Global Dimming' documentary?

[jayreynolds]

Did David Sington give YOU permission to quote his personal correspondence on this forum for purposes the exact opposite of the purpose for which he made his 'Global Dimming' documentary?
No, he didn't, but I did inform him where the discussion was taking place, and quoted him completely. He even thanked me for warning him about your use of his broadcast for propaganda purposes.

Dear Mr Reynolds,
Thank you for your message.
First of all, you are absolutely right about the “chemtrail” conspiracy theorists! We have been sent quite a lot of photographs, letters, e-mails etc, both here and at Horizon. I must say, having spent some time filming vapour trails for the programme, all the photographs produced as evidence for “chemtrails” are quite obviously ordinary contrails. Don’t worry, after 20 years making science programmes, one develops a nose for – to put it politely – eccentricity. But thank you for your warning – which I shall pass on to Horizon.
David


The fact is that BBC has rejected the "chemtrails" hoax, and that really galls your butt, doesn't it, Wayne?
So be it.

I was not alone in speaking out about Sington's propaganda piece, which, by the way, was totally thrown out the window a few months later when BBC presented evidence showing "Global Dimming" to have ended despite a large increase in aircraft mileage.

Sington received a dressing-down by many climate scientists, and then tried to shut them up by threatening a lawsuit:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=105

But enough of changing the subject, unless you want to continue discussing how all scientists have rejected your people's hoax?

reiterating:
Did he give you permission to quote him at all, especially out of context for any purpose you wanted?

[halva]

Sington also replied to me when I told him my side of the story, but he asked me not to post the correspondence on a public forum and complained about your having done precisely that.

He said: "I do not expect extracts from my e-mails to be publicly posted without my permission – perhaps I am being naïve! I do not know Mr Reynolds. I think that skepticism about climate change is, broadly speaking, misplaced and not scientifically justified."

I am not going to go into what David Sington says about 'chemtrails'. It is no secret, anyway.

I think the nuances of this issue and the relation between 'chemtrails', 'global dimming' and climate change are adequately summarised in the position paper that I sent to David Travis and others and posted here.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

GOP criminals lie about GW and CT's.

=================

Hi,

It doesn't seem to matter whether it's downplaying
environmental contamination, denying the
existence of global warming, or preventing women from
receiving safe and legal prescriptions, when it comes
to the abuse of science for political purposes, the
track record of the Bush Administration has no
parallel in modern times.

Take action:
http://go.care2.com/e/FR2/bC/DIBa

Consider this recent episode -- in June we learned
that Phil Cooney, chief of staff of the White House's
Council on Environmental Equality, re-wrote government
reports in order to significantly downplay the scientific
certainty on global warming. But Mr. Cooney is not a
scientist - he's a lawyer who used to work as an oil
industry lobbyist.

Not surprisingly, after the New York Times disclosed
Cooney's role in doctoring government reports, he left
the Bush Administration and took a job with ExxonMobil,
the world's largest oil company and chief supporter of
"junk science", which aims to create doubt in the minds
of the media and general public that global warming is
actually occurring.

The blatant manipulation of science for political
purposes has dangerous implications for our environment
and public health. Fortunately, this fact hasn't gone
unnoticed in the scientific community. More than 6,000
scientists to date, including Nobel Laureates, have
signed a letter asserting that the Bush Administration
has a pattern of distorting and censoring important
scientific work in order to advance their partisan
political agenda.

But now we need your help. Elected officials need to
hear from their constituents that the manipulation of
science is undemocratic and undermines our ability to
responsibly address the most important issues
confronting our nation.

Send your legislators a message today!
http://go.care2.com/e/FR2/bC/DIBa!
__________________________________

[jayreynolds]

I am not going to go into what David Sington says about 'chemtrails'.
I'll bet you won't, old bean! In fact, I'll bet you won't go into what Travis said, either, if you actually did contact him, but I'll bet the two cases would have some similarity!

Face it, Wayne, you are on the losing side and no amount of cheating can see you through to a win.

[halva]

I have just this moment received an e-mail from David Travis. Why don't you contact David Sington again and then you and I can compare notes on the respective reactions of these two men to the way we have used information they gave us.

[jayreynolds]

I have just this moment received an e-mail from David Travis. Why don't you contact David Sington again and then you and I can compare notes on the respective reactions of these two men to the way we have used information they gave us.
Wayne, I really have no use for David Sington, as I most likely will never produce a propaganda film.

I can only hope that if you are able to connect David Travis that he will be able to straighten you out on a few things. I predict he will never buy into your "geoengineering chemtrails" hoax, however, and has probably had a good laugh over it already.

Remember, if you begin to use false methods with Travis like you did with Ross Gelbspan, you will get caught, be exposed, and in the end lose out on yet another chance to hear and spread the truth about "chemtrails", that they are merely ordinary contrails.

so make good use of the opportunity and don't screw it up this time. You will find that what Jay Reynolds has always been saying is completely correct. lastly, I warn you that when you come to that realization, and propagate it among your fellow chemmies, they will eat you alive.

Still, it is far better to have enemies with whom you speak the truth than friends with whom you share lies.

[halva]

The reality is that you would not attempt to contact Sington again as you have ruined your relations with him.

All collateral damage in your quest to achieve what??

By contrast, although David Travis is annoyed that I did not quote him in his entirety and although his expressed position on 'chemtrails' is not such as would create problems for you, presumably, like Sington, perceiving you as a person with an unacceptable attitude to climate change, David Travis has left it to me to decide how I should deal with you, merely requesting that in future I should quote him in full. My relations with him are not ruined as yours are with Sington.

I do not believe that you are a benevolent well-wisher anxious to save me from error. You are a totally malevolent enemy and an enemy I am going to defeat.

Unlike IS I do not hope that some official agency will arrest you and I do not hope that such agencies are going to do my work for me.

[halva]

It will be good if David Sington, through his experience with you, can have come to a realization that he cannot achieve the objective of his 'global dimming' documentary avoiding confrontation with people like you while at the same time deploring the 'apathy' of the population in general, or trying to 'frighten' the 'apathetic' and ill-informed masses' into 'action'.

[jayreynolds]

It will be good if David Sington, through his experience with you, can have come to a realization that he cannot achieve the objective of his 'global dimming' documentary avoiding confrontation with people like you while at the same time deploring the 'apathy' of the population in general, or trying to 'frighten' the 'apathetic' and ill-informed masses' into 'action'.
It will be good if Wayne Hall, through his experience with Jay Reynolds, can have come to a realization that he cannot achieve the objective of his "chemtrail" hoax avoiding confrontation with scientists while at the same time deploring the 'apathy' of scientists, or trying to 'frighten' the 'apathetic' and ill-informed masses' into 'action'.

[halva]

I am pleased to have got you into reactive mode.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Jay Reynolds is delusional.

A menace to society that wants to hurt little kids by not telling them of the dangers of fluoride to their IQ and long term health.

[halva]

In the earlier stages of hostilities on this thread there were times when it looked as if the final outcome would be a straight-down-the-line ejection of the 'chemmies' by what was then a gang of debunkers, some of them very primitive.

About a year to fifteen months ago this thread was even triumphally declared a 'chemmie free zone', possibly by WMM.

Until our side set to work again to reverse the balance.

A question to Raynolds: would you say that the consolidation here of 'chemmie/debunker' hybrids of the BC/ET type represents an enhancement of, or a detraction from, the victory you would have scored if the 'chemmies' had been simply displaced by crowing, triumphalistic and ignorant 'debunkers'??

Does the change correspond to an overall strengthening or weakening of your relative position over the last eighteen months?

[jayreynolds]

In the earlier stages of hostilities on this thread there were times when it looked as if the final outcome would be a straight-down-the-line ejection of the 'chemmies' by what was then a gang of debunkers, some of them very primitive.

About a year to fifteen months ago this thread was even triumphally declared a 'chemmie free zone', possibly by WMM.

Until our side set to work again to reverse the balance.

A question to Raynolds: would you say that the consolidation here of 'chemmie/debunker' hybrids of the BC/ET type represents an enhancement of, or a detraction from, the victory you would have scored if the 'chemmies' had been simply displaced by crowing, triumphalistic and ignorant 'debunkers'??

Does the change correspond to an overall strengthening or weakening of your relative position over the last eighteen months?
Wayne, if the proof is in the pudding, and it is, your cooks need a new recipe.
Let's go back to the original questions for a reevaluation.
Have your answers changed at all?
Give them a try:
1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "chemtrails"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

If you rely on the statements or writings of others in your explanation, please cite the sources by name and location, publication, URL link, etc, in the standard manner.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Jay Reynolds=Delusional


Jay Reynolds thinks that CO-2 releases from Coke and Pepsi products are part of the Toxic Release Inventory and that these drinks are toxic.

Jay Reynolds is simply insane.

[whitemajikman]

Wayne, if the proof is in the pudding, and it is, your cooks need a new recipe.
Let's go back to the original questions for a reevaluation.
Have your answers changed at all?
Give them a try:
1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "chemtrails"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

If you rely on the statements or writings of others in your explanation, please cite the sources by name and location, publication, URL link, etc, in the standard manner.


Jay You Are Like A Telephone Solicitor .........

I Bet You Keep That List of Questions Posted Right Beside Your Cpu ........

As You Know Jay There Are Thousands Of Individuals Whom Have Already Answered Those Questions .........

There Is No Need To Keep Boring Us With Your Skepticism......

Your Own Government and Military Are Debunking You As We Speak ......On A Daily Basis......

Your Favorite Little Phrase Is "Time Will Prove You Correct"..........

I Think You Should Rethink Your Position........Because Time Is Not On Your Side.......And The More Time That Goes By......... More Will Be Revealed That Puts You in The Spotlight as A Kook Whom Has Been Wrong From The Beginning........

When That Day Occurs......And It Shall Be Soon given the tremendous political pressures your government is now under and more Importantly your Military .........

You Shall Pay a heavy price for your demented Transgressions that you have committed over the years.......

You Are A Proverbial "DEAD MAN WALKING".........Whose Number Is Rapidly Approaching......

WMM

[halva]

Thank you WMM.

Jay Reynolds simply avoided the question.

"Hybrids" are unreliable allies and tend to appear on the scene, often to be co-opted by the collapsing political bloc, when it is on its last legs.

I indicated to Jay Reynolds that from a historical viewpoint all his exertions of the last years will just look like symptoms of the American political system shooting itself in the head.

The 'chemmies' that have been savaged, mauled and discredited by Reynolds, from Carnicom onwards, are people closest to him politically. The 'chemmies' that survive his attentions and remain out of his reach are those remotest from him politically and geographically.

If Reynolds had anything to do with the sacking of Scott Stevens, this is just another case to prove the same point.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

A Delightful old saying:

"I write to entertain my friends and to exasperate our enemies."


The White House is coming undone at its seams and the Jay Reynolds GOP lies are bunk-shooting out each end.

Their downfalls are at hand.

Just keep up the writing of truth over evil's lies.

[whitemajikman]

Thank you WMM.

Jay Reynolds simply avoided the question.

"Hybrids" are unreliable allies and tend to appear on the scene, often to be co-opted by the collapsing political bloc, when it is on its last legs.

I indicated to Jay Reynolds that from a historical viewpoint all his exertions of the last years will just look like symptoms of the American political system shooting itself in the head.

The 'chemmies' that have been savaged, mauled and discredited by Reynolds, from Carnicom onwards, are people closest to him politically. The 'chemmies' that survive his attentions and remain out of his reach are those remotest from him politically and geographically.

If Reynolds had anything to do with the sacking of Scott Stevens, this is just another case to prove the same point.


Thank-You Wayne

While I Did Participate Early On In Debunking Chemtrails and Treated Everyone With Disdain who was promoting The Idea of "CHEMTRAILS" ,My associations with these Debunkers Changed My Outlook on the Entire Matter and why I have become what I am today which is a CHEMMIE whom only wishes to let the Truth of what I have Learned Be Known.......

Debunkers Like Jay Reynolds Talk About Dealing In Truth And Facts......Which Is a Fallacy.

They Are No more Interested In theTruth or Care about the facts unless it can provide them with The Means to Keep Propagating Their Own Hoax Which Is What They refer to as Debunking ........

You see Wayne Debunkers Are All Hoaxters They Are More Concerned With Winning Debates And Subverting Minds To Their Own Perceived Reality ......For Example There Is A Debunker Named Letxa Whom Has Taken Quite a Liking (and I say this facetiously) to Anthony Wade of Op/Ed News Fame.........

The Entire Argument started With Anthony Questioning Stuart Allsop(another Debunker and a self styled Christian) on how he can condone his own arrogance and belittling of people whom he did not agree with and still call himself a Christian........To Which Stuart Replied " Jesus Condones And Teaches This Philosophy "and if Anthony WereTo Read The Bible he would Know This......Well Anthony Is A Christian And Does Read The Bible Daily.......and Knew That Stuart's Rendition of Christianity Was Very Much Flawed........

When Stuart Started To Lose This Debate .......Letxa Jumped In and started to question Anthony's Christianity by using Arrogance and Belittling tactics .......When It Was Clear That This Was Not Going To Work Letxa and Stuart Decided to try and use the "OLD" Context in literature Ploy......When This Failed Too......Letxa Did What All debunkers Do ....He Tried To Cruxify Anthony By Making Him A TROPHY On His Website Letxa.com.........Of Course Letxa's Rendition of the whole affair is a lie and a manipulation of actual events..........which I personally witnessed as it was unfolding......

I Am a Chemmie Now Because I Made a Choice That I did Not Want To be Included With These Types Of Individuals Because The Only Thing They Are Interested In is GLORY Even Though It Is Only Self-proclaimed Glory.....They Don't Care About Facts Or The True Nature Of What Is Occuring .......All They Care About Is TROPHIES and how Best To Manipulate The Minds of Those Who OpposeThem.......

And I Have Made It My Priority To Let The World Know......That These "Intellectual" Serial Killers are out There And They Deal In Deception And The warping Of Human Discovery ........

Am I Changed Man.....?

You Bet I Am......And I am Dedicated To The world Being Enlightened To The TRUE FACTS OF ANY GIVEN PROBLEM.........

With This Post It's The Debunkers That I have Set My Sights On...... For They Block all avenues Of Enquiry And Mock Human Progression By Utilizing Their Manipulative and some times destructive Tactics to all that oppose them...........

They Are The Children Of Dis-Information.......And Create Division Where None Should Exist......

WMM

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Yeah Verily----they are the children of the Zionist anti-Christ----the twisted Faith Base of Bush's GOP.

[jayreynolds]

Yeah Verily----they are the children of the Zionist anti-Christ----the twisted Faith Base of Bush's GOP.

I suppose we should consider Jimbo's "High and Mighty" comment above in the context of his previous claims.


"The HAARP Project is another one and one that I also gave the name for."

"My studies on the atmosphere effects shut down the cold war."

"I had succeeded in becoming one of the best of the nuclear scientists and discovered a weapon that was even worse than the H-bomb."

"I also solved the mystery behind the Tunguska Blast in 1908."

"My discovery that the G-protein effects of fluoride-metal complexes caused the AIDS epidemic set off a national emergency."

"I also walked on these volcanoes barefoot, just as Moses did in his time."

"It was via Jim Phelps' knowledge of these relevant issues on Global Climate change and old world warfare that the HAARP and chemtrail methods were conceived or invented."

"The invention of JP-8 jet fuel formula was also an inadvertent Icon for Jim Phelps..."

"I invented "nanoscience" and the revolution in small atom scale materials to effect global systems effects."

"Jim Phelps is the father of the nano- science revolution that started at ORNL in the mid-1980's."

"My nano-science discoveries are being used to control global warming and global health, and are the essences of global systems science. It uses the secrets of the Ark of the Covenant and the secrets of 5,000 year old Egyptian metals sciences."

"I have managed to end the production of Freon in the US due to these issues and one can see that Freon was banned by Congress just after my discoveries."

"I am the fail-safe for these problems, a kind of Egyptian Anubis watchdog for the feather balance of right vs wrong."

"Jim Phelps is the national lab person that discovered serious issues in terminal event theory of global systems, invented Star Wars weapons, forced the DOE to begin clean up of pollution damaging workers and communities, discovered the air pharmacology techniques [aka chemtrails], and forced the closure of K-25 and other DOE plants. My projects in the DOE and DOD are more classified than the H-bomb."

"Jim Phelps is the inventor of the HAARP project, the discover that the Earth's magnetic field is an MHD generator, the discover of the critical factors of fluoide's on health..."

"Jim Phelps invented systems that protect the health of animals and man on a scale that dwarfs what Moses attempted..."

"I invented the titanium technique, which essentially blocks the onset of fluorosis due to fluoride in the food and water chain."

"Today, my titanium air pharmacology invention keeps the cattle of the US from getting things like "Mad Cow" syndrome from the fallout of fluorides onto grass."

"I have the ranking most powerful weapon system design in Star Wars that literally taps the power from a Star."

"My studies also solved the basic issues on the cause of AIDS in 1985."

"I had succeeded in becoming one of the best of the nuclear scientists and discovered a weapon that was even worse than the H-bomb."

"I had become more a destroyer of worlds, as Oppenheimer quoted from the "Gita."

"In the DOE, Jim Phelps is considered one step removed from God.."

[halva]

From a historical viewpoint all his exertions of the last years will just look like symptoms of the American political system shooting itself in the head.

The 'chemmies' that have been savaged, mauled and discredited by Reynolds, from Carnicom onwards, are people closest to him politically. The 'chemmies' that survive his attentions and remain out of his reach are those remotest from him politically and geographically.

If Reynolds had anything to do with the sacking of Scott Stevens, this is just another case to prove the same point.

There's nothing easier than pressing the repeat button, again and again.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Poor disgruntled GOP Reynolds, he has become a nobody and all his vast claims laid to waste.

[jayreynolds]

Poor disgruntled GOP Reynolds, he has become a nobody and all his vast claims laid to waste.
I have no "vast claims", compared to yours above.
Jimbo you have claimed to be "one step removed from God".
Sounds pretty vast, huh?

[Insurrectionchemistry]

GOP's like Jay Reynolds engage in lying. It seems their only defense these days.

As such, makes them no-bodies in any discussion.

And making lots of them criminals these days.

Jay Reynolds actively assists the GOPs criminal activties on cover up of environmental factors associated with GOP industries.

Jay Reynolds=GOP crook

[halva]

Come on Raynolds, I want some red letters too.

[halva]

Do you think Scott Stevens will be out to get you now Raynolds?

[jayreynolds]

Do you think Scott Stevens will be out to get you now Raynolds?
Tell Scotty Jay reynolds said BRING IT ON.

[halva]

From a historical viewpoint all Reynolds' exertions of the last years will just look like symptoms of the American political system shooting itself in the head.

The 'chemmies' that have been savaged, mauled and discredited by Reynolds, from Carnicom onwards, are people closest to him politically. The 'chemmies' that survive his attentions and remain out of his reach are those remotest from him politically and geographically.

If Reynolds had anything to do with the sacking of Scott Stevens, this is just another case to prove the same point.

[halva]

Nothing like a bit of repetition, eh?

[halva]

Getting bored, Raynolds?

[jayreynolds]

Getting bored, Raynolds?
It looks like I'm not the only one.
Here is the latest professional research being produced by your people:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/thread9427.html

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Chemtrails methods have been around a long time, and can't be denied. Lots of the chemtrail methods are modeled after the same effects that made fogs from industrial releases.

For many decades most people never noticed that the increases in coal emissions and industry were driving up cloud formations and weather over large areas of the US, just in the same way they never noticed that women's hair spray and leaking auto air conditioners were releasing Freon and distroying the ozone layer and this was killing the ocean's phytoplankton systems and the mechanims that made clouds over the oceans to keep them cool.

Now, we can see some of this harm coming to roost as the US is getting slammed with massive hurricanes formed in the central Atlantic that are being driven by these warmer ocean problems due to the ozone depletion problems. Now the Govt. wants to sustain these coal emissions to help compensate for this loss of global clouds from ocean damage factors.

So, from these dual effects, one sees that weather over areas like Tennessee has actually been cooler and wetter due to the applachian coal burning in these areas, while the Southern Oceans are heating up more and El Nino effects and more frequent and powerful storms follow. There are some competing functions happening, one cancelling the other out over select areas. But, in general, a warming problem is present in the global sense. Jet chemtrail pattern traffic adds one more level of effect.

These are just the weather factor problems due to industry, and as we found these problems and how one was compensating for the other in the middle 1980s ideas, then using jet planes to do some of the same compensation tricks were invented. Most all of them patterned after things happening in Oak Ridge that made fogs.

That was not the least of the problems, as Oak Ridge also had some major toxicity issues, which entered the chemtrails equations. Raining out increased fluorides and acids causes serious problems. A snap shot of the type problems that associate is again to look at the Oak Ridge model.

The most serious of problems in Oak Ridge has always been the fluorides toxic effects and these fluoride associated health problems have been known since the times of fluorides health effects seen in Europe' industries stemming from the late 1800s and early 1900s.

Oak Ridge's K-25 plant was a chemical processing plant with enough fluorine present to kill most of the state of Tennessee. Keeping the K-25 emissions bottled up cost the Manhattan Project 25 % of its total funding.

It was a constant battle in Oak Ridge to avoid problems from occuring like those seen in London's Pea Soup poison fogs, the Meuse Valley poison fogs, Denora's Poison Fogs, and the St. Lawrence area where weather inversions and topology trapped and caused the poisons to form deadly killer fogs giving out deadly heart attacks.

The basic topology for these well known air inversion problem zones of valleys with rivers is the same as the river and valleys for Oak Ridge that captures the plant's pollutants via being blocked by ridges.

Even the TVA coal fired power plants on each end of Oak Ridge highly contributed to these fluoride poison death risks and in the 60s the decision was made to increase these TVA smoke stakes to the "Super-stack" heights to increase the dispersion of the deadly smoke and help to prevent the air inversion type trapping centers between ridges being formed.

Still with all the efforts in attempts to avoid these health problems, they only half succeeded. Oak Ridge was for the longest time run by Union Carbide, which mean't things were run as cheaply as possible and humans were at risk as they were in Bhopal, India. The real problems have been covered up by constant denial of the public about the true harm the fluorides releases have caused to human health.

Today, the K-25 plant is shut down due to these extreme risks and thousands in the region are ill due to their increased exposures to the fluorides in the air, water, and food. Most all the sick worker health effects in the special cohort group for gaseous diffusion workers are sick from the toxic effects of fluoride on the thyroid system and glutathione mechanism that remove toxic metals from the body.


Oak Ridge has just been the mine canary for the fluorides rising in the populations all across America and what has happened to Oak Ridge worker's health now increasing affects all Americans and even their children's health and IQ.


It is Oak Ridge and their helpers in environmental crime cover ups, like Jay Reynolds and the corrupted and criminal Bush Admistration, that bring these harms to all Americans, their children, and to the world.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Looks like things are hopping on the Climate Emergency in these parts:

http://www.skyhighway.com/~chemtrails/


I dare say the evidence is clear between this site and WMM that Jay Reynolds is delusional.

Careless Human activities have indeed screwed up the Earth's Climate and there is real cause for concern.

[jayreynolds]

Wayne Hall has claimed he has won what he started here, which was suposed to be an "honest debate" over his claim of the reality of "chemtrails".
However, Wayne has admitted he has no proof for his claim.
So how can he claim to have won?
I reiterate the ten deadly questions for his answers, let's see how he does:
1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "chemtrails"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

If you rely on the statements or writings of others in your explanation, please cite the sources by name and location, publication, URL link, etc, in the standard manner.

[jayreynolds]

Wayne hall opened this debate almost two years ago with the following claims:


Arianna Huffington has just written an article called 'The Pentagon Sounds the Alarm on Global Warming'. At the end of it she says: 'The Democratic nominee needs to remind the White House — and the American people: It’s not nice to fool with Mother Nature.'

There would be nothing wrong with a Democratic Party candidate doing that, but it should not be ignored that there are by now very large numbers of Americans who realise that 'fooling with Mother Nature' is something currently proceeding on a gigantic, planetary, scale, with the blessings of not only of the Bush regime but also of many opponents of Bush who are genuinely concerned about global climate change and are supporters of 'geoengineering'.

To Americans like this, Arianna's remarks about fooling with Mother Nature may seem to be underrating their intelligence, or knowledge.

The geoengineering issue has now been addressed by the activists of ATTAC-Hellas in Greece, which is Arianna Huffington's native land also:

See
http://www.attac-hellas.org/seminars/geoengineering/programmeenglish.htm

Further information at:
http://www.spectrezine.org/global/Hall.htm

The genuinely grave situation of the planet should not become an excuse for manipulative danger-mongering and for acceptance of classification of climatic change as a 'national security' question, if this is going to mean a continuation of the dishonesty and lack of transparency with which the Pentagon has so far operated on this question, and characteristically operates on all questions.

It is time for there to be exposure, and honest public debate, about what is ALREADY being done by the proponents of geoengineering 'solutions'.
OK, Wayne, you said you wanted debate, above are ten pertinent questions central to your claim. Where are your answers?

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Looks to me like Jay Reynolds lost the game long ago.

He was and is part of the environments problems. He is one of the major polluters that designed poor energy system that now drive an environmental holocaust.


Not only has Jay Reynolds lost the debate, he is rather like the Bush White House in criminal denial on varied cover ups.

Jay Reynolds is a GOP crook, he is at fault.

[Yaak]

Looks to me like Jay Reynolds lost the game long ago.

He was and is part of the environments problems. He is one of the major polluters that designed poor energy system that now drive an environmental holocaust.


Not only has Jay Reynolds lost the debate, he is rather like the Bush White House in criminal denial on varied cover ups.

Jay Reynolds is a GOP crook, he is at fault.

These are very serious charges, Jimmy. How is it you conclude that exposing you as a liar and Wayne as a hoaxer are criminal actions? These acts appear to be public services, not crimes.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

The crimes begin with the deceivers and those who profit by the deceptions:


Lets do a simple example of how stupid Jay Reynolds is as a power plant engineer. We are going to use a nice example that all beginner chemistry texts well show. But it is used extensively by DOE in the gas diffusion business.

I stated:
"Alumina does react with HF in the air"

Jay Reynolds' poor knowledge asks:
"Ok, prove how it could do so, Jimbo.
You can't."

====

It is increadibly obvoius that HF will react with alumina to even high school chemistry kids, but not to Jay Reynolds because he was a "grease monkey" at a power plant and now just a little "dirt farmer." He does not know simple sciences and never really did. One can tell that Jay Reynolds doesn't even really qualify for even grease monkey because most people know the ingredient in "Armour-All" for aluminum wheels is HF. HF is the brightner for corroded aluminum, and even high school kids know about it.

Jay Reynolds is involved in the process of pollution and poor engineering, he is trying to hide problems.

Easily found on the internet is this citation from an official NRC report on gas diffusion risk on the use of alumina to trap HF from gas diffusion releases:

====

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:QbWkgrkwpXwJ:www.nrc.gov/materials/fuel-cycle-fac/ml042190038.pdf+alumina+trap+HF+criticality&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

5.3.9 Technical Services Building Ventilated Room The purpose of the TSB Ventilated Room is for the emptying of chemical traps and to deal with faults associated with cylinder valves. Valves may be removed from cylinders and new valves fitted. The replaced valve is then tested for vacuum integrity. Calculations have been performed on storage arrays of product vent chemical (carbon) traps. The calculations also cover the storage of alumina traps, which are of similar dimensions but have a lower uptake of uranium. The alumina traps are not normally exposed to uranium (their purpose is to remove HF), but it is possible that an alumina trap could be connected to the plant by mistake in place of a carbon trap. The modeling of alumina traps as carbon traps covers this possibility. The chemical traps are essentially empty steel cylinders into which steel internal parts including perforated plates to carry the activated carbon are placed. The activated carbon in the trap

=======

Clearly proven is that alumina makes an excellent HF trap. DOE likes these traps because they get nearly all the HF in air and are very high efficiency.

DOE has always been very concerned with HF releases, because very tiny amounts cause health problems for worker exposures. So, they chose alumina powder traps to grab all the HF releases into the air. Many of the places where there is UF-6 lost to air there is an alumina trap system. Examples are areas like cylinder product transfer handling zones where lines filled with UF-6 are disconnected and dump UF-6 into the air, which converts to HF. There are systems called air "Gulpers" that use alumina powered to trap the HF from being released from the process area.

One of the problems is via careless actions in the later years of Union Carbide and Martin-Marietta, all these carefull preventions turned into a general level of abuse. Workers vented stages to atmosphere dumping long plumes of HF into the plant and communities air. They cranked up the processes so the bubbler systems did not trap HF at the correct levels. They burned UO2F2 in incinerators. They let huge tanks of UF-6 sit around leaking HF in the cylinder yards, and so on. They lost the care that cost the Manhattan Project 25% of its funds to keep the UF-6 and HF away from workers environment and communities environments.


The UF-6 systems of Oak Ridge are generally shut down these days, except for system deposit removal jobs. The only remaining HF operations in Oak Ridge these days is the one at the Y-12 plants "Green Salt" operation. This was recently upgraded to monitored double containment and total air washing of all air from the process. This process had killed workers in the past from skin exposures to HF. And the air releases were associated with affecting the health of the Scarboro Community of Oak Ridge and the many workers of the Y-12 plant exposed to the HF in the air. A leaking HF tank nearly killed the entire plants population not very long ago.

So, the DOE spent millions recently to upgrade this most dangerous of the Y-12 plants chemical operations.

HF is a cumulative poison and the safe level for it is about like the radiation ALARA process. There is NO safe level for HF exposures, because it is cumulative over a lifetime.

Add on the HF emissions of two DOE plants in Oak Ridge and two HF emitting TVA power plants in Oak Ridge and you get a lot of sick workers and people from HF's slow poisoning effects. And one huge liabilty for TVA and DOE.

And to GOP crooks like Jay Reynolds.


This is the really big health secret in Oak Ridge and the main reason for all the bad press on the area's health in major newspapers like the Nashville Tennessean's EXPOSE on the problems in recent years.

The Newspaper ran an massive series of reports based on literally nearly a thousand interviews with communities and workers in the area. One can still read about what the DOE's and the GOP's greed for the bomb did to this region in Tennessee:

http://www.tennessean.com/special/oakridge/part1/index.shtml

http://www.tennessean.com/special/oakridge/part2/frame.shtml

http://www.tennessean.com/special/oakridge/part3/frame.shtml



These are the stories about what the cover up of HF has done to a region and its people.


This is what persons like Jay Reynolds seeks to conceal for his power industry.

[halva]

Wayne hall opened this debate almost two years ago with the following claims:

OK, Wayne, you said you wanted debate, above are ten pertinent questions central to your claim. Where are your answers?

“On the basis of the facts so far known, the existence of chemtrails would be difficult to prove before a court of law – notwithstanding the fact that spraying with chemical substances has a long pre-history.”

This acknowledgement is to be found not far from the beginning of a book recently published in Europe that may be destined to influence public opinion more than any other book so far published on the subject of “chemtrails”.

If it does, none of the debunking technique of a Reynolds will be of any use to him.

Early American ‘chemmies’ had a juridical approach to ‘chemtrails’. They acted as if their task was to ‘prove’ the existence of ‘chemtrails’ to a court of law or to a Reynolds-style self-appointed public prosecutor.

It would never have entered the head of a Toni Thayer, for example, to be anything other than juridical in her approach. She and her Blue Skies International were early casualties of Reynolds. You can see some of the story here (http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000056-2.html)

There must be many other such examples. These activists fell victim to Reynolds precisely because their approach was juridical, not political. How could it have been political? Their politics was usually not so very different from the politics of Reynolds and company. And everyone was American.

That is what leads me to say, as I say now, that Reynolds’ single-minded sadistic persecution of these people amounts to American society and politics shooting itself in the head.

When at the beginning of this thread I invited “honest public debate about what is ALREADY being done by the proponents of geoengineering ‘solutions’” it is true that I could not PROVE that geoengineering amounts to more than proposals. Any more than Reynolds could, or can, PROVE that he is honest.

And I am not going to be required to prove anything, because it is Reynolds, not me, who is going to be in the dock.

To the extent that Reynolds has got away with adopting the public prosecutor stance it has been because of politics, not because of legality.

Politics is the decisive factor. Only a few months before the collapse of the Soviet Union, Gorbachev’s government won a Union-wide majority in a referendum. The majority of the citizens of the USSR favoured the Union’s continuation. That was the legal reality. How much weight did it have?

There were no legal grounds for the opposition in Serbia, just before Milosevic’s downfall, to reject a second round of the Presidential elections. That was the Yugoslav electoral commission’s ruling. But how much did that help Milosevic? He was brought down by street politics. Legality played no role at all.

So it will be with Reynolds. He has decimated his own milieu. The legality that is going to prevail will be others' legality.

Anyone interested in the questions he has dragged up again; how the discussion around them evolved; what counter list of questions emerged for Reynolds himself to answer, can check the archives.

[jayreynolds]

[i]
When at the beginning of this thread I invited “honest public debate about what is ALREADY being done by the proponents of geoengineering ‘solutions’” it is true that I could not PROVE that geoengineering amounts to more than proposals.

And I am not going to be required to prove anything,

Sure, Wayne.
And you said you have won the debate on those terms?
Delusional.

[jayreynolds]

I hate to "pick scabs", but sometimes it's sorta fun...............


I See Jim Phelps the KooKY Jew Hater And Perpetual Poster Boy for the Mentally Insane is still trying to find some sort of legitimacy through his use of Conspiracy Theory related banter.........

How about this Jim.........

My Name Is Jim Phelps and I hate Jews,I know you are going to call me an anti-semite but thats o.k. because I am. I get all of my Info For my posts from my esteemed colleagues ,the Chemtrail conspiracy believers and the man-made global warming hoaxers,my good friend jeff rense has a site dedicated to my ego and my conspiracy bunk that helps me con more people into believing my outright lies and helps me decieve like Alex jones decieves, I got my schtick actually from a guy named Clifford Carnicom whom has made mega-bucks from promoting a hoax therefore it is my inspiration that I too can do the same. I am a traitor to my country and I am proud of it, we all know that the U.S. is now in the hands of the Annunaki/freemasonic/Illuminati from the planet X and they just happen to be Jewish. We all know that God Is a White Ayran and has little use for the likes of anybody who is not Aryan like myself,we will continue to scam and hoax you in the hopes that we can get enough money to purchase a real website and really start subverting your sons and Daughters through the very convenient Global Warming Issue and my supposed genious. If you do not know who I am then let me fill you in. I am the Inventor of Haarp,and have started researching the very real aphrodisiac effects of fluoride. I am .......shit who am I kidding .I am an arrogant Con-Artist who speaks to God,well at least I think it's God the transmission is coming through my dental work via the chip implant I got as a souvenir when visiting Clifford Carnicom............P.S. If you think I am a nutcase Lunatic then visit my website which will prove you wrong and me sane.........


http://www.doewatch.com/introduction.html (http://)


Of course the link doesn't work ............ :D

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Jimbo, with friends like whitey, who needs Jay Reynolds?

[jayreynolds]

another blast from tyhe past, Jimbo.
Trust no one.

Jim will never post any Analysis Jay and thats because he is just another Activist like Wayne that thinks they can bullshit and scare people into believing their agenda's........

Jim's Agenda is to shut down all nuclear powerplants ...........

Wayne's Agenda is to gain political influence using Man-made Global warming as his weapon of choice........

Both have failed miserably in their Activism..........

They both keep saying more and more scientist's are taking them seriously and Jim has even LIED and DECEIVED the public by saying he invented Haarp and worked at oak ridge ............

And in doing so Has Lied to Wayne about his supposed Importance.

Jim Phelps is considered a Lunatic by his Anti-nuke Activist friends.............

And has been told by them to stop his rediculous fear producing rantings because they are not based on FACT.

But Jim refuses to Acknowledge that he is OUT OF CONTROL.......

And Needs Psychiatric Help........

Just As Wayne tries to Ignore that Jim Phelps Needs Psychiatric Help............

And the fact That Jim wants to Shut all Nuclear Power Down ........

Now it does not take a genius to figure out that by Shutting all Nuclear power down at this time ,would increase the use of Fossil Fuels,which Wayne wants to shut down.........

Activism is not what it used to be.........

And the quality of Activist's have diminished greatly which is in evidence here by these two wannabe's.............

They are all losing their voices in the political arena because they have led many into believing Hoaxes and Conspiracy Theories .........

Activism is now looked upon as the rantings of Conspiracy nuts...........

WAYNE HALL & JIM PHELPS have decided to band together even though their choice for activism are opposing one anothers principals,and in doing so they have no hope in this Lifetime of ever reaching their goals..................

While Wayne is guilty of promoting a hoax,Jim is guilty of Insanity....................

They both Think that they can keep manipulating The Public without ever being Investigated for their Fraud.

or Facing any type of consequences ...........

It just goes to prove how little they really know about reality...................

And for them reality really does Bite back..........

LOOK UP.......................... BUILDING A CASE.

Also Look up .................what happens to PEOPLE whom think they are above the Law.

And then do an image search on my avatar Jim..........

And find out what is really going on............


As I said before your days are numbered...............


WMM

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Deluded Jay Reynolds hasn't figured out that WMM and IS are on the same side these day, the side of truth. We share lots of the same views, even the ones on global warming being man-made. And even some on mother nature, environment, orgin of man's yearnings for god, and so on. Which means deluded Jay can't seem to admit that huge defeat.

I am friends with lots of fairness minded Jewish people, that don't fall into the trappings of nationalism. Jews tend to be very smart and in the New York area, the Jews tend to have the crooked GOPs number and scams down.


Jay Reynolds appears all Choaked-Up, like some Cayotee caught with chicken feathers on his chops after making chaos in the chicken coup to conceal his theft crime.


Jay Reynolds has been found to have commited the crime of Professional Credential Fraud. Jay Reynolds made false claims of being an "Engineer," a state crime.


Anyone that helps him with this fraud by participation in his fraudulent games aids and abets his fraud games.


Jay Reynolds also can't seem to know truck driver level or High School level science on how HF is used to brighten and clean the aluminum on tractor trailers and even airplanes. Even High School kids use HF products to brighten their aluminum mag type wheels.


The real Jay Reynolds is a delusional person trying to make himself sound professional and making himself a fraud in the process.

Jay Reynolds is a proven GOP crook.


There can never be any assisting Jay Reynolds in the performance of his crimes in any manner. There is no debate for persons of criminal intentions, who blatantly violate laws as does Jay Reynolds.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Jay Reynolds is finished. He is caught Red Handed doing the same kind of professional credential fraud that GOP Mike Brown's horse show experience did for FEMA leadership that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of people in New Orleans from oil well subsidence.

Jay Reynolds harms public health and safety every time his scams conceal the power plant emissions of HF and other acids that highly drive cloud formation over the US.

Jay Reynolds harms public health and safety every time his scams deny both the simple chemistry for HF and its extreme impact on human health and longevity.

All Crooked Reynolds GOP scams are intended to remove blame and liability for the Bush corrupted Energy problems in the US. Problems that drive Global Warming and man's impact on that from Freon and Ozone Hole effects as well as jet aircraft compensation methods.


Jay Reynolds is a fraud in every sense of the word and due to his frauds he brings harm to all of America.

Jay Reynolds=GOP criminal

[Yaak]

Has your attorney begun the defamation suit yet, Jay?

[halva]

Sure, Wayne.
And you said you have won the debate on those terms?
Delusional.




another blast from the past, Jimbo.
Trust no one.




Has your attorney begun the defamation suit yet, Jay?


Yes. I say I won the debate.

And you can do nothing but react to that claim.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Jay Reynolds fully admitted to the crime of professional title fraud. Using the title of Engineer without a PE and state license is fraud.

Jay Reynolds has admittedly been involved in so called "power plant engineering," which makes him conflicted in any claims or discussion of coal emissions on the environment. When given the chance to come clean recently, he did not supply the association of coal emissions to cloud and climate change.

Pretty much makes him a farmer, which no one denies, even him.

It appears he has never been an Engineer. Nor a person that knows simple chemistry, as seen here.

Truth is the greatest defense to false claims of defamation. A true bill complant of professional title fraud exists and has been admitted.


Do we get the idea that Yaak wants to help Jay Reynolds keep up his professional title fraud and continued concealment of coal plant emissions to US climate change considerations?

[Insurrectionchemistry]

The Debate has ended for Jay Reynolds, forfeited due to fraudulent and illegal claims.

Jay Reynolds has been shown to be involved in concealing the associations of coal emissions with climate change via his so called "power plant engineer" status.

Game and match awarded to Wayne Hall. Same basic criteria that forced FEMA's Mike Brown to loose.


Jay Reynolds can't even get Forum listed URLs to work correctly and everyone else can, while he thinks some act of god kept him from reading The Tennessean's Oak Ridge Web Pages.

He has lost it in more ways than game forfeited to Wayne Hall.

Cayotee Jay appears all choaked up on bones after being caught swallowing the chicken whole.

One can always tell when Reynolds has lost, all kinds of scarlet letters and giant type admit his failures, as he tries to bully his way when logic fails. This is not debate and never has been, only a destructive monolog carried on by a delusional GOP bunk-shooter.

Jay Reynolds' baloney rejects the grinder. Logic and professional ethics reject Jay Reynolds.

[Yaak]

Do we get the idea that Yaak wants to help Jay Reynolds with his professional title fraud?

I doubt that even the best trained psychiatrists in the world could understand where your ideas come from.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Everyone knows you and Jay Reynolds are sore loosers.

Resembles the White House and Bush these days with all the bully stuff going on when Bush doesn't get his way. Reynolds is a chip off the Bush GOP methods. The bully methods show up with the huge scarlet letters and off the page type size as the bully in him appears.

Everyone has the picture now of what GOP and Reynolds want to hide.





Reynolds scam games are lost and his big buddy Bush is crashing. Bush Down to 37% in latest CBS polls. It is the end of the era for GOP crooks.

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm


Everyone is for cleaning house.

[halva]

Raynolds you are losing the last remnants of your ability to play your various opponents off against each other.

BC is no longer addressing messages to you. Perhaps she has begun to realise it's better to concentrate on working out the solution rather than conducting friendly dialogues with the problem.

Have you ever sat down and calculated how many enemies you have made?

How long is it going to take for the word to get around that you have been defeated?

The fear factor then disappears from the equation.

The birds of prey are gathering over you, Raynolds.

[jayreynolds]

[i]
When at the beginning of this thread I invited “honest public debate about what is ALREADY being done by the proponents of geoengineering ‘solutions’” it is true that I could not PROVE that geoengineering amounts to more than proposals.

And I am not going to be required to prove anything,
Well, Wayne, with your statement above, it has become clear that you never really intended, nor have you even begun to debate the issue you supposedly started in this thread.
Debate is a prosecutorial process, wherein the parties make proposals and counter-proposals, then through fact and logic prove their points to the best of their abilities.

By yur own admission above, you show you have no interest in debate, and have forfeited.

It's really that simple.

No amount of parroting by your pals can change that.

[halva]

I say I won the debate.


Who is there here apart from you who says that you did?

Yaak, perhaps?

[halva]

And by the way, do you persist in your assertion that Gaiacomm was/is really Lance Haubrick?

Say "Yes".

[Insurrectionchemistry]

The key is Wayne Hall invited “honest public debate."

What has become obvious to all concerned is there has not been any honest debate on the part of the GOPs Jay Reynolds. Jay Reynolds has openly commited professional title fraud in making false claims of his being an Engineer.

Jay Reynolds has engaged in a pattern of lies involving even simple science, which is aimed purely toward a destructive monolog with himself.

Delusional GOP Jay Reynolds has not and never has engaged in honest public debate.

Jay Reynolds has consistently been shown to be nothing more than a GOP crook, who seeks to remove well informed public participation from the citizens rights to know and be involved in public decision making processes on environment and health.


Jay Reynolds has been proven a liar and a fraud. A GOP Elmer Gantry whose only mission in life is bunk-shooting.

The word debate used in reference to Jay Reynolds' monolog nonsense is a misnomer.

[jayreynolds]

Who is there here apart from you who says that you did?
And by the way, do you persist in your assertion that Gaiacomm was/is really Lance Haubrick?
==========================================
Wayne, it really doesn't matter to me who agrees with me. I am an individual, and don't necessarily need a mob behind me to validate myself.

You do, but are stymied because you haven't got what it takes to obtain such a throng.

In the final analysis, you will have to either persuade others of the validity of your argument, or you wil lose.
You might con yourself into whatever belief you wish, but in the real world outside of your perception, there lie people who want proof. If you won't give it to them, you will always be the loser.

Oh, giacomm is completely irrelevant, but since you brought him up, what is the old bugger up to?
I see a greek has grabbed his handle recently, helluva name to live up to!
i'll bet the poor bugger has no idea in whose footsteps he walks............
http://www.gaiacomm.gr/index.htm

[jayreynolds]

Delusional GOP Jay Reynolds has not and never has engaged in honest public debate.
The word debate used in reference to Jay Reynolds' monolog nonsense is a misnomer.
Ok, Jimbo, let's roll.

Jimbo, at your website, you wrote:
"I also discovered the ideas for making "Chemtrails" or "Air Pharmacology" to treat the global warming and health effects. My ideas were to use Aluminum to seed clouds that are dispersed from jet plane fuel burning. The ideas also included the dispersion of cheep titanium reduce the effects of fluoride-metal complex metals on animal health. The titanium and fluoride complex did not from the bonding angles that activated the G-protein bonding sites."

Now, Jimbo, I'm wondering about several things.
1. Why did you say you would use "aluminum" back then, but now you say you use "activated alumina". Does this reflect a new idea, or are your claims just evolving over time?

2.How can I get some cheep titanium?

3.Is your claim above that alumina or aluminum is in jet fuel?

4.Exactly what concentration of alumina(or aluminum) is required in the jet fuel for effective global HF remediation?

Jimbo, you make the claim that you are a "whistleblower".
You've dodged the question above for 24 hours.
If you truly did, as you have claimed, invent the process above, why can't you, as a supposed "whistleblower", tell us a little more about the process?

I certainly don't want to cover up or keep anyone from benefitting from your knowledge.

So why not just give us some details?

Is there a reason why you don't want to get into this subject?

Are you frightened by what path continued discussion of your claims might take?

Is it possible that these questions might reveal some holes in your claims?

now I expect you will begin nattering on, trying to deflect attention away from your inability to discuss what you claim to be an expert in, so go ahead if you like, but be aware that if you really want to persuade people, you'll have to at least make an effort.

If you won't, people will begin to wonder why..............?

If so, just tell us why you can't answer the questions above.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

The GOP fraud known as Jay Reynolds, who could not figure out HF reacts with Al, is finshed here and everywhere else.

[halva]

=========================================
Wayne, it really doesn't matter to me who agrees with me. I am an individual, and don't necessarily need a mob behind me to validate myself.


This shows the extent of your delusion.

You do need a mob behind you, and you think that you have the mob called the United States government forever behind you.

Boris Pugo, interior minister of the Soviet Union, must have thought that he had that mob called the Soviet Union behind him until certain crucial hours in 1991 when he suddenly realised that like Jay Reynolds he is/was an individual.

The realization came as such a shock that he committed suicide.




You do, but are stymied because you haven't got what it takes to obtain such a throng.


This is about on level with the shots about the ouzo swigging.

What, after all, do you know?



In the final analysis, you will have to either persuade others of the validity of your argument, or you wil lose.


I cannot even say that you will have to persuade others of your honesty or you will lose, but this would be silly, because apart from poor Yaak, who is there now to be persuaded?

You rely entirely on fantasy identification with your country's crumbling regime.



You might con yourself into whatever belief you wish, but in the real world outside of your perception, there lie people who want proof. If you won't give it to them, you will always be the loser.


As a matter of fact nobody is asking me for proof. They ask me how things are going, generally.




Oh, giacomm is completely irrelevant, but since you brought him up, what is the old bugger up to?


Gaiacomm is in no way irrelevant to your credibility. You claimed that he is a minor employee at a Native American reservation by the name of Lance Haubrick. You asserted over dozens and dozens of pages, with a baying snorting snickering chorus of debunkers behind you, that this is the reality. You asserted it in the same in-your-face way that you assert everything else. Do you still make this claim? Yes or no?

You think it doesn't matter, that it is irrelevant, because neither Gaiacomm nor Lance Haubrick can hurt you, so you can say what you like about them. To whoever you like.

This is the assumption of yours that is going to be punished.

[jayreynolds]

Delusional GOP Jay Reynolds has not and never has engaged in honest public debate.
The word debate used in reference to Jay Reynolds' monolog nonsense is a misnomer.
Ok, Jimbo, let's roll.

Jimbo, at your website, you wrote:
"I also discovered the ideas for making "Chemtrails" or "Air Pharmacology" to treat the global warming and health effects. My ideas were to use Aluminum to seed clouds that are dispersed from jet plane fuel burning. The ideas also included the dispersion of cheep titanium reduce the effects of fluoride-metal complex metals on animal health. The titanium and fluoride complex did not from the bonding angles that activated the G-protein bonding sites."

Now, Jimbo, I'm wondering about several things.
1. Why did you say you would use "aluminum" back then, but now you say you use "activated alumina". Does this reflect a new idea, or are your claims just evolving over time?

2.How can I get some cheep titanium?

3.Is your claim above that alumina or aluminum is in jet fuel?

4.Exactly what concentration of alumina(or aluminum) is required in the jet fuel for effective global HF remediation?

Jimbo, you make the claim that you are a "whistleblower".
You've dodged the question above for 24 hours.
If you truly did, as you have claimed, invent the process above, why can't you, as a supposed "whistleblower", tell us a little more about the process?

I certainly don't want to cover up or keep anyone from benefitting from your knowledge.

So why not just give us some details?

Is there a reason why you don't want to get into this subject?

Are you frightened by what path continued discussion of your claims might take?

Is it possible that these questions might reveal some holes in your claims?

now I expect you will begin nattering on, trying to deflect attention away from your inability to discuss what you claim to be an expert in, so go ahead if you like, but be aware that if you really want to persuade people, you'll have to at least make an effort.

If you won't, people will begin to wonder why..............?

If so, just tell us why you can't answer the questions above.

[jayreynolds]

What, after all, do you know?
Wayne, I know you could never persuade people of science, people of knowledge, or people of logic that "chemtrails" are a reality, which is your claim.
I don't even have to fight with, you to know that that is the impenetrable wall of reality you are up against.

Just look at your fellow traveler, Jimbo Phelps. he can be cornered soooooo easily and stymied when asked for any details about his claims. The same will happen wherever he goes, and the same for you.

Sure, there are suckers born every minute, and sure you can find them, evn persuade them.
But suckers won't really get you anywhere except suckerville, and you know that. So do as you wish, Wayne.
I know


Gaiacomm is in no way irrelevant to your credibility. You think it doesn't matter, that it is irrelevant, because neither Gaiacomm nor Lance Haubrick can hurt you, so you can say what you like about them. To whoever you like. This is the assumption of yours that is going to be punished.
Punishment?
Ok, Wayne, do your worst which, I assume you've been trying to do all along.
It hasn't fazed me in the least before, and won't -ever.
I've been hearing those sort of hollow threats for many years, by now they sort of roll off me like water off a duck's back, considering the source.
Bring it on.

[halva]

Wayne, I know you could never persuade people of science, people of knowledge, or people of logic that "chemtrails" are a reality, which is your claim.


I take it you didn't read what I said about the sounding taken by a physicist friend of mine yesterday.

[jayreynolds]

I take it you didn't read what I said about the sounding taken by a physicist friend of mine yesterday.
And you have some proof to proffer for this claim?

It appears you have learned your lesson from your experience with Ross Gelbspan
and are now relying on anonymous third party claims, no proof supplied.

In Gelbspan's case, you deliberately misquoted him out of context to make it appear he supported your claims about "chemtrails". A little fact checking revealed that he did no such thing, and he forced you to delete the claim.
Same with Dr. Sarah Cornell of the Tyndall Centre.
You admitted it:
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=248678&postcount=6647

Same with Drs. Christos Zerefos and Nikos Katsaros, same with Greenpeace:
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=85027&postcount=2387

So, with five clear examples of people you claimed were on your side, which turned out to be false, can you give us a reason why we should trust you now?

[Insurrectionchemistry]

The sign of things to come for GOP Jay Reynolds and his pals:

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Jimbo, you've had a couple of days to find a way to "Lie yourself" out of these questions. C'mon, give it your best shot!


Ok, Jimbo, let's roll.

Jimbo, at your website, you wrote:
"I also discovered the ideas for making "Chemtrails" or "Air Pharmacology" to treat the global warming and health effects. My ideas were to use Aluminum to seed clouds that are dispersed from jet plane fuel burning. The ideas also included the dispersion of cheep titanium reduce the effects of fluoride-metal complex metals on animal health. The titanium and fluoride complex did not from the bonding angles that activated the G-protein bonding sites."

Now, Jimbo, I'm wondering about several things.
1. Why did you say you would use "aluminum" back then, but now you say you use "activated alumina". Does this reflect a new idea, or are your claims just evolving over time?

2.How can I get some cheep titanium?

3.Is your claim above that alumina or aluminum is in jet fuel?

4.Exactly what concentration of alumina(or aluminum) is required in the jet fuel for effective global HF remediation?

Jimbo, you make the claim that you are a "whistleblower".
You've dodged the question above for 24 hours.
If you truly did, as you have claimed, invent the process above, why can't you, as a supposed "whistleblower", tell us a little more about the process?

I certainly don't want to cover up or keep anyone from benefitting from your knowledge.

So why not just give us some details?

Is there a reason why you don't want to get into this subject?

Are you frightened by what path continued discussion of your claims might take?

Is it possible that these questions might reveal some holes in your claims?

now I expect you will begin nattering on, trying to deflect attention away from your inability to discuss what you claim to be an expert in, so go ahead if you like, but be aware that if you really want to persuade people, you'll have to at least make an effort.

If you won't, people will begin to wonder why..............?

If so, just tell us why you can't answer the questions above.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

I am too occupied with watching the Bush Regime fall to fool with your delusional GOP games. These are exciting and historic times, as it appears American's might be able to recover their freedoms from the corruption in DC. One does not want to miss a minute of it.

Besides Jay Reynolds doesn't even know basic sciences, and Jay Reynolds is a fraud, and Jay Reynolds is a GOP facilitator of the crooked Bush Regime. Jay Reynolds' GOP frauds will work out in due course, just as they will for the Bush Regime.

Global Warming is going to hit the US even harder as the Clean Air emissions of coal plants cut down the cloud making even more, following on top of the UV-b effects on ocean clouds.

[jayreynolds]

So, you say you are "too busy" to detail the claimed elements of your hoax, eh, Jimbo?

Cop out.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Definitely too busy for the Jay Reynolds idiot games.

I don't work miracles. I can't make a GOP idiot into a knowledgeable person.

You have made claim to be an Engineer and even they know how the alumina HF trap method works.

Any time you want to explain the mechanism behind the simple fact that alumina is used to trap HF, you can do that. But I am not going to hold my breath, nor will anyone else.

It entirely depends on your proving you know how that rather simple mechanism works, which is firmly established by an offical Federal NRC report.


In the debate game, I have the beachhead and you have a proven weakness showing you don't know simple science.


Chemtrails discussions can't proceed unless the delusional GOP one can explain this mechanism and agree it exists.

Not, then you lost another one.

[jayreynolds]

Jimbo, to an extent, activated alumina certainly can adsorb hydrogen flouride .
I never disagreed that it could.

Now, on to the questions:

Jimbo, at your website, you wrote:
"I also discovered the ideas for making "Chemtrails" or "Air Pharmacology" to treat the global warming and health effects. My ideas were to use Aluminum to seed clouds that are dispersed from jet plane fuel burning. The ideas also included the dispersion of cheep titanium reduce the effects of fluoride-metal complex metals on animal health. The titanium and fluoride complex did not from the bonding angles that activated the G-protein bonding sites."

Now, Jimbo, I'm wondering about several things.
1. Why did you say you would use "aluminum" back then, but now you say you use "activated alumina". Does this reflect a new idea, or are your claims just evolving over time?

2.How can I get some cheep titanium?

3.Is your claim above that alumina or aluminum is in jet fuel?

4.Exactly what concentration of alumina(or aluminum) is required in the jet fuel for effective global HF remediation?

Jimbo, you make the claim that you are a "whistleblower".
You've dodged the question above for 24 hours.
If you truly did, as you have claimed, invent the process above, why can't you, as a supposed "whistleblower", tell us a little more about the process?

I certainly don't want to cover up or keep anyone from benefitting from your knowledge.

So why not just give us some details?

Is there a reason why you don't want to get into this subject?

Are you frightened by what path continued discussion of your claims might take?

Is it possible that these questions might reveal some holes in your claims?

now I expect you will begin nattering on, trying to deflect attention away from your inability to discuss what you claim to be an expert in, so go ahead if you like, but be aware that if you really want to persuade people, you'll have to at least make an effort.

If you won't, people will begin to wonder why..............?

If so, just tell us why you can't answer the questions above.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Jay Reynolds suddenly admits when faced with a Govt Report:


"Jimbo, to an extent, activated alumina certainly can adsorb hydrogen flouride .
I never disagreed that it could."

=============

This admission after a big agreement with Ziggy that alumina was a dead material.

Looks to everyone that your agreement with Ziggy means that you said it was not possible.

Lies piled higher and higher around the crooked Jay Reynolds.


Now he has to show that he knows the mechanism for alumina to absorb HF.


Oh what a tangled web Jay Reynolds weaves as his speaks to deceive.

[jayreynolds]

Jay Reynolds suddenly admits when faced with a Govt Report:
"Jimbo, to an extent, activated alumina certainly can adsorb hydrogen flouride .
I never disagreed that it could.".

No, Jimbo, no argument that activated alumina can adsorb hydrogen flouride, it can.

The problem I had was understanding exactly how you designed the "chemtrails" methods to make it do so. If yu figured out a way, that would be brilliant indeed.


Now, on to the questions:

Jimbo, at your website, you wrote:
"I also discovered the ideas for making "Chemtrails" or "Air Pharmacology" to treat the global warming and health effects. My ideas were to use Aluminum to seed clouds that are dispersed from jet plane fuel burning. The ideas also included the dispersion of cheep titanium reduce the effects of fluoride-metal complex metals on animal health. The titanium and fluoride complex did not from the bonding angles that activated the G-protein bonding sites."

Now, Jimbo, I'm wondering about several things.
1. Why did you say you would use "aluminum" back then, but now you say you use "activated alumina". Does this reflect a new idea, or are your claims just evolving over time?

2.How can I get some cheep titanium?

3.Is your claim above that alumina or aluminum is in jet fuel?

4.Exactly what concentration of alumina(or aluminum) is required in the jet fuel for effective global HF remediation?

Jimbo, you make the claim that you are a "whistleblower".
You've dodged the question above for 24 hours.
If you truly did, as you have claimed, invent the process above, why can't you, as a supposed "whistleblower", tell us a little more about the process?

I certainly don't want to cover up or keep anyone from benefitting from your knowledge.

So why not just give us some details?

Is there a reason why you don't want to get into this subject?

Are you frightened by what path continued discussion of your claims might take?

Is it possible that these questions might reveal some holes in your claims?

now I expect you will begin nattering on, trying to deflect attention away from your inability to discuss what you claim to be an expert in, so go ahead if you like, but be aware that if you really want to persuade people, you'll have to at least make an effort.

If you won't, people will begin to wonder why..............?

If so, just tell us why you can't answer the questions above.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Jay Reynolds was caught red handed agreeing with Ziggy's dead material alumina claims.

Now, The Jay Reynolds fake Engineer that is supposed to know all about aluminum uses in water plants and refineries, doesn't know the mechanism for alumina trapping HF.

Yet, now he admits it happens and has known so all along, but lied about knowing to support his fake agendas.

Ziggy likes precise, so the whole principle for the alumina trapping of HF, or all becomes obviously focused on more of Jay Reynolds chemistry lies. And Jay Reynolds looses the discussion again.

[jayreynolds]

Oh, come on, Jimbo. Tell us more about how you invented "chemtrails".

We really need to know all the details, and this is yor big opportunity.
Don't miss this chance for you to become famous!

Please answer the questions. I beg of you, oh great inventor!

[Insurrectionchemistry]

No problem---just as soon as you admit the rest of the story on the mechanism for alumina trapping HF.

It is a simple fact this happens, and you have well known this fact.

Now admit the rest of the mechanism for the fact.

Else be caught telling more lies and not being honest.

[jayreynolds]

As I've been trying to tell you, Jimbo. Nobody disputes that Van der Waals forces can, under certain conditions, allow activated alumina to adsorb hydrogen fluoride.

Now, answer my questions which bear directly on your claims, Jimbo.

Jimbo, at your website, you wrote:
"I also discovered the ideas for making "Chemtrails" or "Air Pharmacology" to treat the global warming and health effects. My ideas were to use Aluminum to seed clouds that are dispersed from jet plane fuel burning. The ideas also included the dispersion of cheep titanium reduce the effects of fluoride-metal complex metals on animal health. The titanium and fluoride complex did not from the bonding angles that activated the G-protein bonding sites."

Now, Jimbo, I'm wondering about several things.
1. Why did you say you would use "aluminum" back then, but now you say you use "activated alumina". Does this reflect a new idea, or are your claims just evolving over time?

2.How can I get some cheep titanium?

3.Is your claim above that alumina or aluminum is in jet fuel?

4.Exactly what concentration of alumina(or aluminum) is required in the jet fuel for effective global HF remediation?

Jimbo, you make the claim that you are a "whistleblower".
You've dodged the question above for 24 hours.
If you truly did, as you have claimed, invent the process above, why can't you, as a supposed "whistleblower", tell us a little more about the process?

I certainly don't want to cover up or keep anyone from benefitting from your knowledge.

So why not just give us some details?

Is there a reason why you don't want to get into this subject?

Are you frightened by what path continued discussion of your claims might take?

Is it possible that these questions might reveal some holes in your claims?

now I expect you will begin nattering on, trying to deflect attention away from your inability to discuss what you claim to be an expert in, so go ahead if you like, but be aware that if you really want to persuade people, you'll have to at least make an effort.

If you won't, people will begin to wonder why..............?

If so, just tell us why you can't answer the questions above.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

As I've been trying to tell you, Jimbo. Nobody disputes that Van der Waals forces can, under certain conditions, allow activated alumina to adsorb hydrogen fluoride.



Gee---I wonder if tap water is this special circumstance of "certain conditions." It reacts with fluoride just fine, all the time.

It also happens to react with HF in air ever better, all the time.

And the Earth now quakes beneath delusional Jay Reynolds footing sending him down the express elevator to Hell for lying again.

There goes any semblance of Grease Monkey Jay Reynolds chemical expertise on anything.


Now back to the focus discussion----which happens to be alumina methods to trap HF.

Not good enough answer. Keep it real simple so the general public can easily grasp it.

Polar discussion required.


======

http://thewaterexchange.net/fluoride-water-filters.htm

Model CTD-F. This dual-cartridge countertop filter uses a fluoride removal cartridge with activated alumina (one of the best ways to remove the contaminant) as a pre-filter to effectively remove fluoride, good for approximately one year.

[jayreynolds]

Gee---I wonder if tap water is this special circumstance of "certain conditions." It reacts with fluoride just fine, all the time.

It also happens to react with HF in air ever better, all the time.

And the Earth now quakes beneath delusional Jay Reynolds footing sending him down the express elevator to Hell for lying again.

There goes any semblance of Grease Monkey Jay Reynolds chemical expertise on anything.


Now back to the focus discussion----which happens to be alumina methods to trap HF.

Not good enough answer. Keep it real simple so the general public can easily grasp it.

Polar discussion required.


======

http://thewaterexchange.net/fluoride-water-filters.htm

Model CTD-F. This dual-cartridge countertop filter uses a fluoride removal cartridge with activated alumina (one of the best ways to remove the contaminant) as a pre-filter to effectively remove fluoride, good for approximately one year.

Jimbo, nobody can see what sort of relevance fluoride in tap water has to do with your claims, that airplanes spread aluminum in their exhaust, because it doesn't.

Frankly speaking, my friend, it has become clear that you are only interested in dodging questions about your own personal claims.

I've been asking you specifics for days, even tried to give you a lesson or two in science.
Siegmund has tried to pin you down about your claims, too.

But really all that has come forward is something about tap water?

Jimbo, until you start being honest about your claims, I won't dance.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Looks to me like Jay Reynolds is a corrupt idiot and a proven liar. He can't keep up in simple discussions of chemistry. Or is that won't keep up with the discussion.


The Polar molecule Alumina is the cloud forming agent in aluminum chemtrail methods.

Even Mother Nature knows alumina's special affinity for water, as bauxite (which is alumina mostly) has a lot of water hydration. Similarly, any alumina has a very high affinity for water. Both are polar compounds (water and alumina) and alumina will highly attract water in the atmosphere.

Lots of the acids in the atmosphere are also polar compounds and have a very high affinity for water, hence they are called hygrosopic.

One can easily see this polar molecule hygroscopic effect around Oak Ridge when HF vapors are released due to UF-6 leaks. Every time HF is released to air, its polar characteristics make for huge hygroscopic effects and dense white fogs of water vapor forming. One can see the same effects from coal smoke's acids and air inversions that make the poison fogs around Denora and other sites that kill people.


Same effects happen when alumina compounds are released from Jet Planes, and when the alumina naturally meet up with the acids in the aerosols of the air, it forms ever more hygroscopic compounds and lingering white clouds to reflect IR radiation.

This is a method to compensate for the loss of the phytoplankton sulfur cycle products like DMS and SOx compounds that form clouds naturally. Such processes and others like them make jet chemical emissions a little more friendly toward global warming problems. Which is the reasons visible chemtrails are allowed to occur.


One can look in chemical reference books and spot several C-H-O based compounds of aluminum that are soluble in oil and jet fuels and even take note of the ethyl corportations making of metal alcohols that do the same.

The Al process even works with water vapor injection into the compressor zone, which highly increases jet engine efficiency and lowers emissions problems still further.


Thus, it is now shown why Jay Reynolds wants to ignore the factors like coal smoke inversions making cloud fogs, because this polar compound effect is what makes the clouds form. The polar compound effects of acids in the air from coal smoke make the aerosol particles. Similarly, alumina can cause the same problems and when it comes into contact with these acid aerosols even enhances the effects and forms larger particles.


Thus, all the really easily realizable science behind how polar compounds form aerosols in the atmosphere, shown now with many common sense examples.

And the clear reasons that crooked Jay Reynolds is attempting to avoid the discussion of polar molecules like alumina and its affinity for water and water aerosols in the atmosphere.


If Jay Reynolds acknowledged this mechanism's existance, it sends him to the pits of Hell on the one- way express elevator with no return ticket.


Obviously, Jay Reynolds is caught once again in attempts to lie and avoid discussions of the common sense examples of atmospheric aerosol sciences of polar compounds.


Now that Jay Reynolds true colors of being a GOP crook are showing up loudly in red letters. It cames time to dump him and his misinformation tactics from honest discussions.

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Jimbo, you are the master of "chemtrails" hoaxery, that is fer shur!

Now, is it true or not that adsorption of molecules by activated alumina is preferential, that is, a substance can be adsorbed, or not, depending upon which other molecules are available to be adsorbed, and that some molecules might be given preference over others in adsorption?

Inquiring minds want to know and after all, since you invented "chemtrails" decades ago, you would have all this sort of information all figured out.

Think about where all this could lead, Jimbo...............

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Chemtrails science is totally real.

On the other hand your alumina can only react under certain special situations story has been shown to be your undoing.

So, what else is new from the GOP Bush crooks that want to hide the true levels of environmental devastation from the environmentalist community, and disenfranchise them from having informed input into how our environment should be managed. Let along input into the massive lawsuits that are sure to hit for the level of damage to the planet and its peoples.

And that sin of omission that you did to the CTC types by not telling them about the "Clean Air Regulation" pollution abadement effects on cutting down the acids / SOx emissions, which is upsetting the rainfall patterns across the country.

Jay Reynolds wants the poorly informed chemtrail activists to take aim at Jet Planes and increase the risks to little kids, mothers, and innocents -- with his willing intentions to mislead the public in general on what has really been going on due to man's impacts on his environment.

Jay Reynolds is on a firey meteoric fall straight into the pits of hell, and being more exposed for being a GOP cover up crook every day.

[halva]

Here is a new version of the position statement I posted earlier:

CLIMATE CHANGE AND GEOENGINEERING


‘Geoengineering’ must be included in public discussions of climate change.

Geoengineering is defined as ‘intentional large scale manipulation of the global environment’, e.g. by altering climate with the primary intention of reducing undesired climate change caused by human influences. ‘Geoengineering schemes seek to mitigate the effect of fossil-fuel combustion on the climate without abating fossil fuel use; for example by placing shields in space to reduce the sunlight incident on the Earth.’ (Keith D.W. 1999. Geoengineering, Encyclopedia of Global Change, New York).

In relation to ‘geoengineering’, the ‘Climate Change 2001’ report of the ICPP
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg3/176.htm
confirms that it ‘includes the possibility of engineering the earth’s climate system by large-scale manipulation of the global energy balance. It has been estimated, for example, that the mean effect on the earth surface energy balance from a doubling of CO2 could be offset by an increase of 1.5% to 2% in the earth’s albedo, i.e. by reflecting additional incoming solar radiation back into space…. Teller et al. (1997) found that ~107 t of dielectric aerosols of ~100 nm diameter would be sufficient to increase the albedo of the earth by ~1%. They showed that the required mass of a system based on alumina particles would be similar to that of a system based on sulphuric acid aerosol.…(They) demonstrate that use of metallic or optically resonant scatterers can, in principle, greatly reduce the required total mass of scattering particles required.”’

If, as very many indications suggest, such programmes and such ideas are already under implementation on a very large scale and outside the framework of international law, then they must either be stopped or legalized.

There is no point in ecological organizations disagreeing with them ‘behind closed doors’ and in public confining themselves to objections at the ‘philosophical’ level.

If the political parties, parliaments and mainstream mass media are not willing to bear the political cost of honesty in relation to ‘geoengineering’ then the Social Forums must exercise the necessary political leadership.

If geoengineering is already under way and governments and scientists deny this, the only political beneficiaries are the ‘neoliberal’ or ‘neo-conservative’ lobbies supporting President Bush, who attempt to deny virtually all ecological problems.

Distinguishing between non-military climate mitigation and the techniques of ‘climate as a weapon’ also becomes impossible in situations of secrecy and non-transparency.

The result is that we are unfortunately not in a position to prove to conspiracy theorists that they are wrong when they insinuate that some of the recent tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. may conceivably have been caused deliberately (for example by the HAARP installations in Alaska). Reliable information is not available, and our rulers are solely responsible for this.

[jayreynolds]

Here is a new version of the position statement I posted earlier:

CLIMATE CHANGE AND GEOENGINEERING


‘Geoengineering’ must be included in public discussions of climate change.

Geoengineering is defined as ‘intentional large scale manipulation of the global environment’, e.g. by altering climate with the primary intention of reducing undesired climate change caused by human influences. ‘Geoengineering schemes seek to mitigate the effect of fossil-fuel combustion on the climate without abating fossil fuel use; for example by placing shields in space to reduce the sunlight incident on the Earth.’ (Keith D.W. 1999. Geoengineering, Encyclopedia of Global Change, New York).

In relation to ‘geoengineering’, the ‘Climate Change 2001’ report of the ICPP
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg3/176.htm
confirms that it ‘includes the possibility of engineering the earth’s climate system by large-scale manipulation of the global energy balance. It has been estimated, for example, that the mean effect on the earth surface energy balance from a doubling of CO2 could be offset by an increase of 1.5% to 2% in the earth’s albedo, i.e. by reflecting additional incoming solar radiation back into space…. Teller et al. (1997) found that ~107 t of dielectric aerosols of ~100 nm diameter would be sufficient to increase the albedo of the earth by ~1%. They showed that the required mass of a system based on alumina particles would be similar to that of a system based on sulphuric acid aerosol.…(They) demonstrate that use of metallic or optically resonant scatterers can, in principle, greatly reduce the required total mass of scattering particles required.”’

If, as very many indications suggest, such programmes and such ideas are already under implementation on a very large scale and outside the framework of international law, then they must either be stopped or legalized.

There is no point in ecological organizations disagreeing with them ‘behind closed doors’ and in public confining themselves to objections at the ‘philosophical’ level.

If the political parties, parliaments and mainstream mass media are not willing to bear the political cost of honesty in relation to ‘geoengineering’ then the Social Forums must exercise the necessary political leadership.

If geoengineering is already under way and governments and scientists deny this, the only political beneficiaries are the ‘neoliberal’ or ‘neo-conservative’ lobbies supporting President Bush, who attempt to deny virtually all ecological problems.

Distinguishing between non-military climate mitigation and the techniques of ‘climate as a weapon’ also becomes impossible in situations of secrecy and non-transparency.

The result is that we are unfortunately not in a position to prove to conspiracy theorists that they are wrong when they insinuate that some of the recent tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. may conceivably have been caused deliberately (for example by the HAARP installations in Alaska). Reliable information is not available, and our rulers are solely responsible for this.

Wayne, you had better get your facts straight. Your document, as written, will get you laughed out of the room by any scientist reading it.

No, I won't tell you where your mistakes are, but they are gross and include significant omissions.

There, now you can't say I didn't warn you...............

[jayreynolds]

On second thought, I've decided that I am willing to help you, Wayne.

In order to secure my help, you will need to do the following:

1. Within 24 hours, deposit a check for the sum of one million dollars to the account of the
US Salvation Army specifically designated to go to Hurricane Katrina relief efforts.

2. Renounce all support for Jim Phelps and admit that you are aware he is a delusional crackpot. This must be accomplished within 24 hours on this message board in a new thread entitled,
"Disassociating myself from Jim Phelps"

That should do it.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: GOP Jay Reynolds is a science crackpot who tries to pass himself as an Engineer, but isn't.

Looks to me like all the world has dumped Jay Reynolds and he really can't bargan sitting down in the pits of Hell with nothing to offer.

So, "Pump-Up the Heat" on Jay Reynolds as his brain is already fried and we know who got his soul.

Ole incinerator mouth, Jay Reynolds, is now in flames for his evil. :rolleyes:

[halva]

IS can you detect any mistakes in my text? In any case I have merely copied from the IPCC. There is no other scientific content.

[jayreynolds]

I find it incredibly humorous that you would still depend on Jimbo, Wayne.
You know he is incompetent and that what the IPCC directly contradicts his own claims.

Wayne, do not depend on Jimbo.
Send the money and denounce him.
I will then inform you how to correct your document, but even when corrected it will still send qualified readers into gales of laughter.

[halva]

I don't need your advice on correcting it thank you, and I didn't seek Jim Phelps's advice in drafting it. It has no scientific content anyway. It is all politics.

"Your buddy" Chem 11 liked it, or at least liked it before I added the last paragraph. Perhaps he still does.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Must really be hot down there in Hell. All this non-sense heat keeps erupting.

Jay Reynolds=Crook and everyone knows it.

[jayreynolds]

I don't need your advice on correcting it thank you
As you like, Wayne. I warned you, and offered a solution. My conscience is clear.


I didn't seek Jim Phelps's advice in drafting it. It has no scientific content anyway. It is all politics.

Wayne, of course you had to throw in "science quote" to make it appear scholarly, and as an appeal to authority. Your people are always trying to hitch a ride on someone else's star, because your own ride is so dross. You aren't fooling anyone by lying about it.

[jayreynolds]

Must really be hot down there in Hell. All this non-sense heat keeps erupting.

Jay Reynolds=Crook and everyone knows it.
More nonsene bluster, Jimbo?
Where is your evidence?

[Insurrectionchemistry]

More nonsene bluster, Jimbo?
Where is your evidence?

=======

Poor fraud named Jay Reynolds can't spell no more, brain was fried.

Hey, can you yell up the real temperature down there from Hell. We hear global warming sent you there looking for answers.

[jayreynolds]

IS can you detect any mistakes in my text? In any case I have merely copied from the IPCC. There is no other scientific content.
Jimbo, Wayne asked you a question.
Will you not even respond to your only "ally"?

Where is your substance, Jimbo?
Without it you are becoming irrelevant.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

The piece in question has a few problems and others well put.

Industry has long provided the SOx compounds that formed aerosols and clouds, which contributed to weather modification. As we change these emissions, so we see changes in the opposite direction making some drought patterns and worsening global warming's impact.

Likewise, Jet planes have long been contributing toward environmental harm, and just like the coal emissions are being modified, so have jet plane emissions been modified.

We have known these interactions for many decades and they are being managed and enter into weather control and mediation tactics for the UV-b damage.

Seeding hurricanes is possible. I don't think this has been done, but the technologies and level of understanding to do this are becoming broadly known.


The current hurricane mess is mostly man's damage to the ocean's heat balance from UV-b effects, and this leads to more intense and more frequent hurricanes.

Man has screwed up Mother Nature's balance and now man pays these costs. Older ways of putting the same issues is from terms of Revelations (Pontifications on Nature of things to come), where God (Nature) is punishing man for lack of respect for nature and a greed for money(root of evil).

[jayreynolds]

Wayne, looks like Jimbo can't spot glaring mistakes.
Better get a real scientist.

[halva]

For its purpose the text is OK as it stands in my view. Any modifications to it that are made will be made in response to what real-world collaborators say.

[jayreynolds]

Hopefully your collaborators have some common sense and aren't simply out to snigger behind your back, Wayne. I'm telling you straight out that the best thing you could do is to take my offer for help, because as written your paper contains a poison pill of significance which would make any real scientist simply ignore it.

You might really think you have a political bombshell in hand, but reality is that it is scientific suicide.

Onward through the fog, Wayne. Do as you wish, but don't blame me when your bombshell blows up on you.

I realize I can't help everyone, especially those who don't want or care about themselves.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

The GOP's crooks seem very despirate to keep the people in darkness on environmental information per global warming being caused by man's industries.

[halva]

Scientists have the option of suggesting modifications themselves before putting their name to a text that would go public.

[foot_soldier]

Commie-Liberal Freak... I'm the best friend you have...
You better believe it because GOD said so... I alone know The Truth...
AWK... Commie-Liberal Freak... I'm the best friend you have...
You better believe it because GOD said so... My conscience is clear...
AWK... Commie-Liberal Freak... I'm the best friend you have...
You better believe it because GOD said so... REPENT before it's too late... AWK... AWK... AWK...

JAY "I Will Bury You" REYNOLDS

[jayreynolds]

Commie-Liberal Freak... I'm the best friend you have...
You better believe it because GOD said so... I alone know The Truth...
AWK... Commie-Liberal Freak... I'm the best friend you have...
You better believe it because GOD said so... My conscience is clear...
AWK... Commie-Liberal Freak... I'm the best friend you have...
You better believe it because GOD said so... REPENT before it's too late... AWK... AWK... AWK...

JAY "I Will Bury You" REYNOLDS
Of course, 'footsoldier' doesn't provide Wayne with any correction of his glaring mistake, either?
Wouldn't you even give it a try, FS?
Or would you like to see Wayne eat the poison pill?
here is the document, would you add or change anything?
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=399961&postcount=7444

[halva]

Don't you believe that FS is capable of writing private e-mails Raynolds, or that corrections can be made by other interested off-line parties?

Of course if she wants to comment here in front of you I have no objection, but I must say you really are a bugaboo merchant.

Why don't you just accept the fact that you can't continue doing what you have been doing. You are clutching at straws.

I will say this, that one thing I have considered doing is removing the last paragraph and making it the first paragraph of a second statement.

[jayreynolds]

I will say this, that one thing I have considered doing is removing the last paragraph and making it the first paragraph of a second statement.

You need to remove something else to make it even palatable, Wayne.
As is, it is a comedy for scientists.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Sounds good---remove crooked Jay Reynolds opinions.

[jayreynolds]

Still haven't figured it out, fellows?

Hint: check the original literature................

[halva]

Nobody cares about your little secrets Raynolds. We proceed in total indifference to anything you say.

[halva]

Of course this paragraph could be omitted:

"If geoengineering is already under way and governments and scientists deny this, the only political beneficiaries are the ‘neoliberal’ or ‘neo-conservative’ lobbies supporting President Bush, who attempt to deny virtually all ecological problems."

It is a mechanical carryover from my previous draft and it makes unnecessary concessions to party politics. The lack of transparency over weather modification is a national security issue for Americans and the rest of the world, not a party-political issue.

[jayreynolds]

Of course this paragraph could be omitted:

"If geoengineering is already under way and governments and scientists deny this, the only political beneficiaries are the ‘neoliberal’ or ‘neo-conservative’ lobbies supporting President Bush, who attempt to deny virtually all ecological problems."

It is a mechanical carryover from my previous draft and it makes unnecessary concessions to party politics. The lack of transparency over weather modification is a national security issue for Americans and the rest of the world, not a party-political issue.

What about transparency regarding chemmies, Wayne?

We have these "whistleblowers" like David Stewart and Jim Phelps that seem to be doing a fair share of denying information about their claims these days..................

[halva]

You seem to have lost your ally Ziggy, Raynolds. He recognizes a sinking ship when he sees it.

What the hell, anyway. What he wants to do is feel superior to Americans (starting with Jim Phelps).

He can feel superior to more Americans by changing sides, not by chasing chemmies, either in Germany or in the U.S.

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Wayne, time for a little reality check.
This was posted a year ago, old bean.
Think of all the progress you have made since then.
Ha!
True today as ever, except your people are probably worse off than they were then.
Cheers, and realize that your situation will remain the same by this time next year, and all the ensuing years, buddy!

Ok, time for a little REALITY check.

REALITY#1- The chemtrails hoax, which began almost 8 years ago with the claim that contrails contained ethylene dibromide, has persisted, despite the EDB claim having no validity whatsoever. The claim is still repeated, though no chemmie has ever actually shown a lab test of the fuel or an insitu gas analysis, which would have been an easy matter.

REALITY#2- NO scientific proof whatsoever has ever been presented that chemtrails are other than ordinary contrails. That's not just me talking trash, that is the statement of your own expert, Nikos Katsaros, and each and every one of the credible scientists who you have ever dared approach regarding the subject. The REALITY is that no credible scientist will ever buy into the hoax.

REALITY#3-"Chemtrails" have also been claimed to contain anthrax, brucellosis, HIV, bacteria, influenza, barium, aluminum, titanium, polymers, and many other things too numerous to count. In REALITY, NONE of these has any any factual reality behind them.

REALITY#4-"Chemtrails" have been claimed to create storms, stop storms, cause droughts, end droughts, create mental confusion(some reality there!), earthquakes, prepare the earth for alien invaders, innoculate against bioterrorism, remediate flouride, remediate pollution, remediate ozone, and geoengineering against climate change. in REALITY, NO evidence that any of these are true has ever been presented, and frankly, the claims are so diverse that they are in fact absurdly contradictory.

REALITY#5-The "chemtrails" hoax has attracted a coterie of nutters, snake-oil salesmen, neo-nazis and political extremists of all descriptions. Practically no effort has taken place to eliminate these elements from their patently bogus distractions, and thus the hoax has become identified with them, and not rational thinking. The result has been a marginalization of the claims, in which the general public scoffs at the claims and easily sees them as false simply by association.

REALITY#6-The cult of "chemtrail" believers, rather than modifying their methods, has turned inwards, erecting barriers against REALITY by banning skeptical viewpoints, and even restricting public access to their own discussions. The result has been a stagnation and innoculation against reality, in which ever-more deluded thinking is promoted, never countered by rational examination. Scientists from diverse fields, who unanimously reject the hoax, and should have broght credibility had they been shown facts, have instead become your enemies, rather than lending necessary support. Rather than incorporating their input, you instead turned to people like Jim Phelps, who further alienate those who could help you find reality.

REALITY#7-As with all cults, membership has a high turnover, as disaffected people become frustrated over time, one of the greatest enemies of falsehood. Those members represent failure. At the same time, radicalization of membership has taken place, with leadership passing on to the most deluded "true believers", who are the most unlikely of all to distinguish fact from REALITY. Most of their effort has eventually turned towards proselyzation of new dupes, and endless repetition of the already ludicrous claims. This new class of leaders is the least likely of all to progress, because for them there is no turning backwards, admitting defeat.

And so we come to the final REALITY.

Wayne, should you choose to repeat the same REALITIES enumerated above, and you show all signs of doing so, expect more of the same results. If you choose to change, expect yourself to one day see the hoax ended. The choice is entirely up to you, and out of my hands. Regardless of which choice you make, you will never change reality, because reality simply IS, and the reality IS that "chemtrails" are nothing more than ordinary contrails of water vapor.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Reality IS that Jet planes used to cause global warming, now they lower global warming by using cloud shading techniques.

Reality IS that Jet planes never used to massively grafitti the skies with persistent clouds, but they do now.

Reality IS that environmental damage by man is real, and not only are emission compensation methods happening for coal but likewise for jet plane emissions.

Reality IS jet planes are not flying with the same old fuels or the same old jet engines.

Reality IS jet planes have never released only water, but lots of chemicals including CO2, NOx compounds, soot, and etc..

Reality IS that coal plants use catalysists and other methods to modify their emissions, and the similar techniques are being used with jet emissions.


Reality IS that a GOP crook, Jay Reynolds, is attemping to say something that is impossible, which just won't fly.

The "Stark Reality" IS that Jay Reynolds tells lies and bunk-shoots his delusional "Junk Science" for the GOP's environmental damage cover ups.

Reality IS not on Jay Reynolds' side, and that has been proven time and again.


Reality IS that even pigeons know that Sod-Busting / Turd-Tossing Jay Reynolds is just another Out-House.

[halva]

He is a total idiot and he deserves everything he has coming to him.

[halva]

The point that he has no answer to, and which he simply ignores, coming back to his familiar refrains, which are the only basis on which he can argue, are that one is NOT basing oneself on what one can prove or not prove, but on what can be the basis for a functioning state.

No state can function if its citizens, including people in decision-making roles, cannot distinguish between what is real and what may be an invention of the enemy.

That is precisely the situation that the recent Scott Stevens scandal has been bringing to light, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether his stories about Japanese mafiosi and Russians are true or not.

[jayreynolds]

one is NOT basing oneself on what one can prove or not prove, but on what can be the basis for a functioning state.

If your paradigms are built on a supposition, "NOT basing oneself on what one can prove or not prove", then one is ignoring REALITY.

If your paradigms are merely based on "what can be the basis for a functioning state," your paradigms are based on a supposition, not REALITY.


No state can function if its citizens, including people in decision-making roles, cannot distinguish between what is real and what may be an invention of the enemy.

You are disputing your first statement, Wayne. NOW you are saying one cannot function unless you base your paradigms on, "what is real", otherwise known as REALITY.


That is precisely the situation that the recent Scott Stevens scandal has been bringing to light, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether his stories about Japanese mafiosi and Russians are true or not.
That is precisely the situation that the recent Jim Phelps scandal has been bringing to light, and it has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with whether his stories about his being the "Inventor of "chemtrails"" and spraying of "whatnium" are true or not.

[halva]

Raynolds I am quite happy to have you diverting all your energy tilting at the Jim Phelps windmill, and since he too is apparently quite happy with endless repetitive arguments with you, I can leave him to divert you on-line while I get on with digging your grave off-line.

That doesn't mean I will tolerate absolutely anything you like to serve up here, if you think you are going to organize a debunker takeover here.

[jayreynolds]

Raynolds I am quite happy to have you diverting all your energy tilting at the Jim Phelps windmill, and since he too is apparently quite happy with endless repetitive arguments with you, I can leave him to divert you on-line while I get on with digging your grave off-line.

That doesn't mean I will tolerate absolutely anything you like to serve up here, if you think you are going to organize a debunker takeover here.

So, now your old buddy Jimbo is a diverting windmill, eh?

The windmill is looking pretty well tilted these days, huh Wayne?
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=402539&postcount=8

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Just looks like more of Jay Reynolds games of taking things out of context, and even trying to do some death threats with this sticking knives in veins styled hate wording.

Supervisors in Oak Ridge many times did not fit the discription, they only pushed papers to get money out of cost centers. Many did not know what you were doing and didn't ask.

So, as usual there is more to any story than Jay Reynolds ever represents. Such is the way of GOP crooks.

Obviously Jay Reynolds has never worked for a National Lab and seen some of the real issues of Cold War nuclear programs.

When one does one finds the management in many causes doesn't have a clue about some of the research details, they only push the paper. In those times, some of the managers were old and were just trying to get to retirement. The system was taking care of them and their loss of performance in old age. They basically just made sure you had a pay check every month and not much else. They didn't really care what you were working on, just so long as a cost center kept money in the till. Thus, this is not about true management.

In many areas there can be need to know issues of which the managers don't wanna know.

Often the needs decisions for work are made outside of the OR line management, and the so called managers don't care as long as the money keeps coming in.

In working for FEMA-COG projects, a number of things were off the books. It is how black projects tend to work. The money just gets funneled into varied project's tills.

When I would disappear to certain sites, my ORNL managers knew I was gone, but little else. Nor could they ask specifics on where I was. The few that knew only spoke in veiled codes. Whispers of Camp Davida, and such. The cold war projects were interesting and dining with the bunker managers was fun too. Some sites, even the food service workers need top secret clearance. And for a long time, these sites don't officially exist.

So for most things, at ORNL, I had no real managers. Only people putting money into cost centers, which isn't really about management----its more like accounting.

You learn to become your own project manager and get around these high places finding more money for their special needs. Oak Ridge was a place were lots of things were off the books and all the managers did their best not to pry. In doing this style of management, lots of problems festered. ORNL had problems with slow cookers in their waste tanks, which were covered up. The entire Oak Ridge site had serious problems with fluorine releases and toxic metals, which was cover up. And such gave me these loosely termed managers that only pushed paper, because the long term toxic effects did little for their power to become real managers.

The fella that is most in the know and with the connections leads the show, and that was myself for a number of things on environment problems and long range planning. In Oak Ridge, what is officially acknowledged as known vs what is really known are to vastly different things. This becomes especially so, if there were extreme liabilty and costs involved. So, when you work on the real problems, the sleepy managers are often limiting themselfs to what can officially be known or admitted on the books. And for these serious and sensitive problems, you effectively have no managers. But you got lots of money, and that is what counts.


It was a system highly based on corruption in Oak Ridge, and it damaged worker health and local environments. It appears the Bush Adm. is attempting to clone the ORNL system of management of late.

[halva]

From now on, Wayne old fellow, you'll just have to cite unrelated sources for corroboration of your claims. You've struck out with Dr. Katsaros and don't forget Dr. Christos Zerefos, the most famous atmospheric scientist in Greece, who told me you were just seeing ordinary contrails.


In the context of a series of functions on the post-carbon economy, the British Council organized a public meeting this evening in the Athens Concert Hall on climate change. The meeting was chaired by Dr. Christos Zerefos. The visiting speaker was Dr. Matthew Collins from the Hadley Centre in England.

Drs. Zerefos and Collins both gave standard accounts of the climate change issue, from a Mediterranean and global perspective respectively. In passing Dr. Matthew Collins mentioned the potential cooling effect of aerosols, which provided an opportunity for me to introduce in question time afterwards the subject of the BBC Global Dimming documentary that was screened earlier this year in Britain and Australia. I reminded Dr. Collins that the initial impulse for the documentary had come from his Hadley Centre colleague Peter Cox, who had wished to use Global Dimming to bring to the attention of the public the full enormity of climate change. He had introduced the subject of aerosols in order to emphasise that "if we carry on pumping out the particles it will have terrible impact on human health, I mean particles are involved in all sorts of respiratory diseases.... and of course they affect climate anyway. If you, if you fiddle with the, the balance of the planet, the radiative balance of the planet, you affect all sorts of circulation patterns like monsoons, which would have horrible effects on people. So it would be extremely difficult, in fact impossible, to cancel out the greenhouse effect just by carrying on pumping out particles, even if it wasn't for the fact that particles are damaging for human health."

I pointed out that the editorial policy of the documentary's director David Sington (and of the BBC) had been to dramatise both global dimming and climate change, even to the extent of frightening people, and that this had been counter-productive, because NASA climate modeller Gavin Schmidt had effectively criticised Sington for carelessness with scientific data. And the criticism had stuck. The fact that the documentary had attracted a huge audience of three and a half million in Britain was neutralized by the general feeling that Sington had not adhered to proper scientific standards. I asked Dr. Matthew Collins if he didn't think that the programme might have been able to dispense with the over-dramatisation if instead of talking only of global dimming the documentary had also mentioned geoengineering, that is to say, of policies of deliberately introducing aerosols into the atmosphere as a means of counteracting global warming. That is to say politics of deliberate air pollution, which were on record as being proposed at the highest level, including by the IPCC.

In reply, Matthew Collins said that he didn't think Gavin Schmidt was engaging in a political attack against the Global Dimming documentary, but rather in scientific criticism. I replied that the effect of Schmidt's intervention had been to undermine the documentary's credibility. The point was not whether he was to be blamed for that, but whether the documentary's approach of substituting emotionalism for discussion of all relevant aspects of the problem (including geoengineering) was the most effective approach to take.

[whitemajikman]

[QUOTEOk, time for a little REALITY check.

REALITY#1- The chemtrails hoax, which began almost 8 years ago with the claim that contrails contained ethylene dibromide, has persisted, despite the EDB claim having no validity whatsoever. The claim is still repeated, though no chemmie has ever actually shown a lab test of the fuel or an insitu gas analysis, which would have been an easy matter.

AND THE CLAIM BY YOU THAT IT IS PREPOSTEROUS HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN BY YOU..........SO IF IT IS SUCH AN EASY MATTER TO PROVE FALSE........THEN DO IT.......BUT I WANT MORE THAN ONE ANALYSIS FROM MORE THAN ONE SOURCE......AND AT LEAST ONE OF THESE MUST NOT BE INTERNET BASED.....GET TOO IT.....COWBOY BOB.....

REALITY#2- NO scientific proof whatsoever has ever been presented that chemtrails are other than ordinary contrails. That's not just me talking trash, that is the statement of your own expert, Nikos Katsaros, and each and every one of the credible scientists who you have ever dared approach regarding the subject. The REALITY is that no credible scientist will ever buy into the hoax.

WRONG AGAIN JAY REYNOLDS THERE IS AMPLE PROOF THAT GEO-ENGINEERING EXIST's.........THAT IS THE REALITY..............CHUMP.


REALITY#3-"Chemtrails" have also been claimed to contain anthrax, brucellosis, HIV, bacteria, influenza, barium, aluminum, titanium, polymers, and many other things too numerous to count. In REALITY, NONE of these has any any factual reality behind them.

BULLSHIT SPEWING FORTH FROM YOUR MOUTH HAS BECOME HABITUAL.........THEY HAVE CONTAINED WHAT YOU HAVE POSTED AND MANY MORE THAT YOU ARE NOT EVEN PRIVY TOO.........THE U.S. AND CANADIAN MILITARY hAVE BEEN DOING IT SINCE 1961..........AND IF YOU WANT PROOF.......ALL YOU hAVE TO DO IS INVESTIGATE........LIKE THE REST oF US HAVE.........


REALITY#4-"Chemtrails" have been claimed to create storms, stop storms, cause droughts, end droughts, create mental confusion(some reality there!), earthquakes, prepare the earth for alien invaders, innoculate against bioterrorism, remediate flouride, remediate pollution, remediate ozone, and geoengineering against climate change. in REALITY, NO evidence that any of these are true has ever been presented, and frankly, the claims are so diverse that they are in fact absurdly contradictory.

WHO CARES WHAT THE RAMBLINGS OF A WASHED UP DEBUNKER THINKS>............YOUR OWN MILITARY hAS PROVEN YOU WRONG AND US RIGHT.......IT's A MATTER OF PUBLIC RECORD........IDIOT.


REALITY#5-The "chemtrails" hoax has attracted a coterie of nutters, snake-oil salesmen, neo-nazis and political extremists of all descriptions. Practically no effort has taken place to eliminate these elements from their patently bogus distractions, and thus the hoax has become identified with them, and not rational thinking. The result has been a marginalization of the claims, in which the general public scoffs at the claims and easily sees them as false simply by association.
The PUBLIC SCOFFS AT NOTHING.......IN FACT YOU LIKE TO MAKE UP YOUR OWN REALITY AS YOU GO I SEE..........LMAO.


THE REST OF YOUR POST IS NOT EVEN WORTH COMMENTING ON...........BECAUSE YOUR INSANITY HAS OBVIOUSLY TAKEN CONTROL OF YOUR MENTAL FACULTIES TO THE POINT THAT YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE THE DISINFORMATION THAT YOU SPREAD ................


WMM

[halva]

I do not believe that he believes the disinformation he spreads. He believes that the action of spreading it is a testimony to (and a proof of) intelligence superior to that of the rest of humanity, as well as a proven strategy for personal success and survival since it reproduces in microcosm the 'governing' strategies of the criminal cabal running the United States (and to a great extent the world).

[siegmund]

REALITY#3-"Chemtrails" have also been claimed to contain anthrax, brucellosis, HIV, bacteria, influenza, barium, aluminum, titanium, polymers, and many other things too numerous to count. In REALITY, NONE of these has any any factual reality behind them.

BULLSHIT SPEWING FORTH FROM YOUR MOUTH HAS BECOME HABITUAL.........THEY HAVE CONTAINED WHAT YOU HAVE POSTED AND MANY MORE THAT YOU ARE NOT EVEN PRIVY TOO.........THE U.S. AND CANADIAN MILITARY hAVE BEEN DOING IT SINCE 1961..........AND IF YOU WANT PROOF.......ALL YOU hAVE TO DO IS INVESTIGATE........LIKE THE REST oF US HAVE.........whitemajikman,

I TAKE YOU AT YOUR WORD

"The US and CA military have been doing it since 1961...."

This is an allegation. As you have said this, now YOU HAVE TO PROOF

Therefore my sole request (test):

Please show me your PROOF (document, picture, information) that US and CA military have been spraying BARIUM since 1961.

siegmund

[halva]

This text was written today for the current events column of the Greek monthly ecological magazine Daimon tis Oikologias by my wife V.K., who heads its editorial board.

My translation:

'The British climatologist Dr. Mat Collins on 20th October gave a presentation at the Athens Concert Hall of the field of contemporary research into climate change, at a function organized by the British Council. The greenhouse phenomenon is certainly worsening, the sea level is rising and in 2050 we will not be able to tolerate summer temperatures. This is believed by the overwhelming majority of scientists, Dr. Collins pointed out. It is very difficult to find anyone who doubts it. He underlined that he himself his engaged in science, not in politics (unfortunately it has got to the point where it is considered bad to be engaged in politics, particularly in the English-speaking world, and this assertion is controversial).

'Then why is the wider public not aware enough at least to try to economise on energy?' asked someone from the audience. In reply, the speaker told the following story:

Some journalists visited the research centre at which he works (the Hadley Centre). None of the scientists at that centre are in any doubt that climatic change is coming and that one of the important reasons for it is human activity (burning of fossil fuels). The journalists were looking for someone who had the opposite view and didn’t find anyone. Then, with the argument that they were obliged to be objective and to cover all viewpoints, they cancelled the programmed interviews which would have given an idea of the dimensions of the problem…. If I have understood correctly they were television journalists, i.e. intermediaries who influence the wider public.



In the context of a series of functions on the post-carbon economy, the British Council organized a public meeting this evening in the Athens Concert Hall on climate change. The meeting was chaired by Dr. Christos Zerefos. The visiting speaker was Dr. Matthew Collins from the Hadley Centre in England.

Drs. Zerefos and Collins both gave standard accounts of the climate change issue, from a Mediterranean and global perspective respectively. In passing Dr. Matthew Collins mentioned the potential cooling effect of aerosols, which provided an opportunity for me to introduce in question time afterwards the subject of the BBC Global Dimming documentary that was screened earlier this year in Britain and Australia. I reminded Dr. Collins that the initial impulse for the documentary had come from his Hadley Centre colleague Peter Cox, who had wished to use Global Dimming to bring to the attention of the public the full enormity of climate change. He had introduced the subject of aerosols in order to emphasise that "if we carry on pumping out the particles it will have terrible impact on human health, I mean particles are involved in all sorts of respiratory diseases.... and of course they affect climate anyway. If you, if you fiddle with the, the balance of the planet, the radiative balance of the planet, you affect all sorts of circulation patterns like monsoons, which would have horrible effects on people. So it would be extremely difficult, in fact impossible, to cancel out the greenhouse effect just by carrying on pumping out particles, even if it wasn't for the fact that particles are damaging for human health."

I pointed out that the editorial policy of the documentary's director David Sington (and of the BBC) had been to dramatise both global dimming and climate change, even to the extent of frightening people, and that this had been counter-productive, because NASA climate modeller Gavin Schmidt had effectively criticised Sington for carelessness with scientific data. And the criticism had stuck. The fact that the documentary had attracted a huge audience of three and a half million in Britain was neutralized by the general feeling that Sington had not adhered to proper scientific standards. I asked Dr. Matthew Collins if he didn't think that the programme might have been able to dispense with the over-dramatisation if instead of talking only of global dimming the documentary had also mentioned geoengineering, that is to say, of policies of deliberately introducing aerosols into the atmosphere as a means of counteracting global warming. That is to say politics of deliberate air pollution, which were on record as being proposed at the highest level, including by the IPCC.

In reply, Matthew Collins said that he didn't think Gavin Schmidt was engaging in a political attack against the Global Dimming documentary, but rather in scientific criticism. I replied that the effect of Schmidt's intervention had been to undermine the documentary's credibility. The point was not whether he was to be blamed for that, but whether the documentary's approach of substituting emotionalism for discussion of all relevant aspects of the problem (including geoengineering) was the most effective approach to take.

[jayreynolds]

In the context of a series of functions on the post-carbon economy, the British Council organized a public meeting this evening in the Athens Concert Hall on climate change. The meeting was chaired by Dr. Christos Zerefos.

I reminded Dr. Collins that the initial impulse for the documentary had come from his Hadley Centre colleague Peter Cox, who had wished to use Global Dimming to bring to the attention of the public the full enormity of climate change. .

So, neither you nor Zerefos mentioned that "chemtrails" were a reality being sprayed over Athens.

And Jimbo Phelps wasn't promoted.

Good.

[jayreynolds]

[QUOTEOk, time for a little REALITY check.

REALITY#1- The chemtrails hoax, which began almost 8 years ago with the claim that contrails contained ethylene dibromide, has persisted, despite the EDB claim having no validity whatsoever. The claim is still repeated, though no chemmie has ever actually shown a lab test of the fuel or an insitu gas analysis, which would have been an easy matter.

AND THE CLAIM BY YOU THAT IT IS PREPOSTEROUS HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN BY YOU..........SO IF IT IS SUCH AN EASY MATTER TO PROVE FALSE........THEN DO IT.......BUT I WANT MORE THAN ONE ANALYSIS FROM MORE THAN ONE SOURCE......AND AT LEAST ONE OF THESE MUST NOT BE INTERNET BASED.....GET TOO IT.....COWBOY BOB.....

Whitey, your people made the claim. Your people do the analysis.
This is a good example why the public sees chemmies as preposterous.

REALITY#2- NO scientific proof whatsoever has ever been presented that chemtrails are other than ordinary contrails. That's not just me talking trash, that is the statement of your own expert, Nikos Katsaros, and each and every one of the credible scientists who you have ever dared approach regarding the subject. The REALITY is that no credible scientist will ever buy into the hoax.


WRONG AGAIN JAY REYNOLDS THERE IS AMPLE PROOF THAT GEO-ENGINEERING EXIST's.........THAT IS THE REALITY..............CHUMP.

I said no proof exists that "chemtrails" are anything ther than ordinary contrails.
Cite your proof to the contrary. Remember, whitey, you said you would publish it before New Years. Only two months to go, you better hurry up.


REALITY#3-"Chemtrails" have also been claimed to contain anthrax, brucellosis, HIV, bacteria, influenza, barium, aluminum, titanium, polymers, and many other things too numerous to count. In REALITY, NONE of these has any any factual reality behind them.


BULLSHIT SPEWING FORTH FROM YOUR MOUTH HAS BECOME HABITUAL.........THEY HAVE CONTAINED WHAT YOU HAVE POSTED AND MANY MORE THAT YOU ARE NOT EVEN PRIVY TOO.........THE U.S. AND CANADIAN MILITARY hAVE BEEN DOING IT SINCE 1961..........AND IF YOU WANT PROOF.......ALL YOU hAVE TO DO IS INVESTIGATE........LIKE THE REST oF US HAVE.........
See above. If you have evidence supporting your claim, show it.

[jayreynolds]

Some journalists..... blah blah blah ]

Sounds like a chemmie wrote this.
No names named means the comment is hearsay, now that "VK" repeats it, it is third person hearsay, now that Wayne translates it, it is fourth person hearsay.

Of what value is this?
None.

[halva]

Are you looking for an opportunity to intimidate Dr. Matthew Collins?

[jayreynolds]

'Then why is the wider public not aware enough at least to try to economise on energy?' asked someone from the audience. In reply, the speaker told the following story:

Some journalists visited the research centre at which he works (the Hadley Centre). None of the scientists at that centre are in any doubt that climatic change is coming and that one of the important reasons for it is human activity (burning of fossil fuels). The journalists were looking for someone who had the opposite view and didn’t find anyone.

Perhaps Collins was being honest, perhaps something has been lost in hearsay repetition, Wayne.

Perhaps the journalists just didn't speak to all scientists at the Hadley centre.

Maybe they should have spent a few minutes on the net to find out what Dr Richard Betts, the manager of ecosystems and climate impact at the Met Office’s Hadley Centre for Climate Change has to say:

""The increase[in 2002-3 CO2 levels-JR] shows that there are relationships within the climate system that we don’t fully understand, and no-one would sensibly claim that the science is settled on climate change."
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1190942004

[jayreynolds]

Are you looking for an opportunity to intimidate Dr. Matthew Collins?
Not really, Wayne. He seems well versed on the "party line".

Are you looking for an opportunity to convert him to the "chemtrails" cult?

Perhaps you should have asked him how ~107 tons of alumina dust would alter climate.
Even climate scientists need a good laugh now and then. Those speaking events get boring as hell, I'd bet.

It sounds like you were too insecure to try and convert Collins, anyways. Saves me the trouble of having to intimidate him.

Scored two points for the good guys, Wayne.
Thanks!

[halva]

It is quite clear that you do not have the foggiest conception of the strategy being pursued your opponent, Raynolds.

You are a sitting duck.

The attack will come from behind while you are sitting glued to the screen of Arianna On-Line.

[jayreynolds]

It is quite clear that you do not have the foggiest conception of the strategy being pursued your opponent, Raynolds.

You are a sitting duck.

The attack will come from behind while you are sitting glued to the screen of Arianna On-Line.
Bring it on, Bozo.

[Insurrectionchemistry]

Tell us about Toni there Jay "I'm a crook" Reynolds.

She seems to be telling us your history of GOP attacks.

[halva]

'Spectre' published my 'Climate Change and Geoengineering' (http://www.spectrezine.org/environment/Hall4.htm) today:

[whitemajikman]

'Spectre' published my 'Climate Change and Geoengineering' (http://www.spectrezine.org/environment/Hall4.htm) today:


Congratulations Wayne........

It is An Excellent article........And well Written.......

WMM

[halva]

WMM have you read this book?

PLANET EARTH: THE LATEST WEAPON OF WAR, by Rosalie Bertell (Available at www.Barnes&Noble.com )

[foot_soldier]

Planet Earth: The Latest Weapon of War
Dr. Rosalie Bertell
http://www.iicph.org/planet_earth.htm

***
Congratulations on the publication of your article, Wayne. It is excellent.

[whitemajikman]

WMM have you read this book?

PLANET EARTH: THE LATEST WEAPON OF WAR, by Rosalie Bertell (Available at www.Barnes&Noble.com )

Yes I Have Wayne......but for people whom haven't and might not know what it is ......here is an excerpt from the introduction............


Excerpt from the Introduction
I felt the piercing cold and saw the clear blue sky and magnificent sun. It was an unreal experience, this winter day at the top of Beckley Hill in Vermont. I was more used to a winter filled with overcast, cold and dreary days, and had formed a close mental association between sunny and warm.

The sunny cold of Vermont made me think more generally about deceptive appearances and how misleading a "first look" can be. My mother always looked well, even at the age of 95, and this was probably because of the twinkle in her eyes and the fact that her spirit was still fully alive. Some of my friends with cancer could have walked in a beauty pageant and no one would ever have noticed that they were sick. It made me think about the Earth and the delicately balanced natural processes that regulate it. If the Earth were damaged or suffering from some "illness", would we be able to recognize the problem early on, when it might be possible to reverse the process?

On this Vermont day, the birch trees were stripped of their leaves, standing naked in seasonal repose. But this bareness was normal, natural, and in the spring, the delicate green leaves would appear again to clothe the trees in elegance. The Earth itself has cycles, and our human ancestors have faithfully marked the passing of the seasons and the weather for some 150 years. However, our knowledge of how these cycles function and how they interact is, as yet, incomplete. We do not know how resilient the Earth is, nor can we gauge its capacity to heal itself.

On a clear cold day, the Earth looks wonderful, the air feels refreshing and it can be hard to believe the warnings that we have seriously compromised its health. Yet, since the United Nations Conference on the Environment in 1972, it has become obvious that the Earth faces serious problems: trees dying, species becoming extinct, contamination and depletion of drinking water, soil erosion, deforestation, smog, reduction of fish stocks, poverty and overcrowding. More recently, the incidence of violent weather has been increasing at an alarming rate and there is evidence that many so-called "natural" disasters are linked to human activities. All of our attempts to restore the health of the planet by changing our lifestyle, reducing dependence on fossil fuels, "reusing, recycling and reducing" seem not to have stemmed the tide. In fact in September 1999 the United Nations Environment Program announced that the environmental crisis is deepening not receding.

It is my belief that we have been treating the symptoms but not the cause of the disease of the Earth. We have been abusing Earth's natural systems, the way it regulates temperature and water supply, recycles waste and protects life. For me, some of the most fundamental abuses have occurred because of our continued reliance on the military.

Wars result in immediate deaths and destruction, but the environmental consequences can last hundreds, often thousands of years. And it is not just war itself that undermines our life support system, but also the research and development, military exercises and general preparation for battle that are carried our on a daily basis in most parts of the world. The majority of this pre-war activity takes place without the benefit of civilian scrutiny and therefore we are unaware of some of what is being done to our environment in the name of "security".

WMM

[DvdGStwrt]

Seriously, we need to reduce our numbers by at least 4/5ths - ideally the earth can support (naturally without shipping, irrigation, chemicals, hybrids, etc) about 1 billion people - if they lived in the right areas, used the right amount of land, dropped the meat eating to a very small portion of the diet.

Practically we can sustain 3 billion with minimal hybridization, irrigation, regional shipment of goods without moving most of that population from unsporting areas (like deserts).

We need to start farming the oceans, not stripping them, we need to make breeding a program that is controlled where the children benefit. Even if that includes forbidding certain people from breeding completely, like those with hereditary diseases, those with emotional and mental disorders that lead to child abuse, taking children from those who can not or are not able to raise a child in a loving home and putting it with those people who can not have children (due to carrying dangerous genetics that will harm the next generation).

Of course the emotional impact of such a program of rational breeding of humanity will immediately get screams of “Nazism”, Racism, or other negative connotations. Hitler did have the base of a “good idea” in that selective breeding will lead to a stronger species however his choices were racial, and bigoted, not toward the common good of our species. I am not talking about a Master Race. I am speaking of a better species of human who are not subjected to genetically linked disorders – a healthier stronger species.

It is the emotional side of humanity that is our downfall it is emotions that lead to nationalism, unbalanced spread of wealth, unchecked breeding habits that lead to a still growing population where millions are dying from lack of food, medicine, the basics of life.

Unfortunately we are part of the Earth, the Earth is a natural system of checks and balances and sooner or later we will come against a predator that will reduce our numbers. Although there are no animal species that poise a threat to the whole of us, our very nature of spreading out and changing the ecology on local levels will sooner or later result in a deadly virus/bacterium that will spread like a wildfire through our fast moving global society – if not just one, than many diverse diseases which will do for us that which we can not do for ourselves.

I’d rather we did this ourselves, controlled our habits and put ourselves in check – for if Mom Nature does it, we will suffer far, far much more than a few hurt feelings.

[Fair &Balanced Who Ca]

Hey WMM:

I think since you enjoy spamming the fuck out of our threads over on the Political Forum with your White Supremacist dogshit, I am going to repay you the favor.


Chemtrails, Another Internet Hoax
by Carl Worden, Liason Officer, Southern Oregon Militia


Ladies & gentlemen:

Too many people do not know what constitutes evidence. This article published back on 12/12/2000, claiming that jet contrails are an evil plot to kill off millions of people to reduce the world's population, is an elaborate hoax that a lot of people still believe is true.

It isn't, but it does reveal how easy it is to manipulate people into believing things that are preposterous.

For example, the article claims that analysis of the nasties being sprayed reveals all kinds of bugs and chemical or metal goodies that are infectious and/or poisonous to us, especially after being combined with something else later. The article claims the spraying is occurring at 20,000 feet, and then makes the leap that what is found on the ground came from those tankers spraying way up there.

Huh?? Wait a minute, unless you can take a sample directly from that "tanker" up there, you can't prove that what you found on the ground afterward came from that plane, isn't that true? That's not evidence.

The article also claims contrails normally disappear after a minute or two, but these evil chemtrails don't. Wrong again. Take a look at some of those old western movies where the director didn't notice those high contrails as he was filming. They were there for a very long time, and the boo-boo happened in several other movies that depicted an age before aircraft ever flew.

One guy in Colorado claimed he knew where the tankers were stationed. I was up for it, so we offered to send in a strike team. You never saw anyone back-pedal so fast in your life. The guy claimed they had it all under control and they'd be handling it. He never said where the planes were flying out of specifically, and they do have to land, refill and take off again, you know.

Notice how these hoaxers never give a specific person to contact with the CDC. They might give the name of a fellow hoaxer as a source, but these "experts" never have any credentials to back them or what they have to say. One time, I sent an earnest fellow $20.00 for a video tape of the "chemtrails" he filmed. In one segment it appeared that the jets criss-crossing the sky were turning the "spray" on and off. I showed it to an experienced pilot, who laughed and pointed out that the jets were hitting and leaving a body of colder air when they appeared to be turning on and off their "spray".

"How much did you say you paid for that video?", he asked. Smart aleck.

Anyway, that's the whole skinny on this Chemtrail hoax. If they really want to kill a bunch of people off, all they have to do is release Small Pox after the "elite" NWO people get vaccinated. Now THAT would be deadly, effective and very fast.

Once again, it appears this Internet hoax was put out by the Christian Identity/Aryan Nations bunch. The baloney follows.

~Carl F. Worden




Rense.com
Prototype Flu Vaccines And Chemtrail Agents Major Threat To Health (http://www.rense.com/general6/prototype.htm)
(http://www.rense.com/general6/prototype.htm)12-12-2000
http://www.rense.com/general6/prototype.htm (http://www.rense.com/general6/prototype.htm)

(http://www.rense.com/general6/prototype.htm)


IMC Editorial note: The IMC also abhors this sort of conspiracy-theorizing, and encourages solid patriots to steer clear of "chemtrails", "planet x", tack-marks", and other unprovable and ridiculous fear-mongering rumors. There are enough
real conspiracies and conspirators to go around