It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature

[Bonehead9]

http://www.columbusalive.com/2001/20011206/120601/12060101.html

Ken Caldeira, a scientist at Lawrence Livermore Labs and one of the country’s leading experts on weather modification, conducted the original computer modeling for the use of aluminum oxide to fight global warming. He told Columbus Alive, “We originally did this study to show that this program [using massive spraying for weather modification] shouldn’t be done,” due to negative health effects. Caldeira said there are persistent rumors that the Bush administration will announce geo-engineering weather modification projects this spring. Caldeira sees this as “political suicide.”


A litttle clarification

From: Ken Caldeira

To: D. Phalen

Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 4:17 PM

Subject: Re: program [using massive spraying for weather modification]

Dear Deb,

I have no knowledge of the "Chemtrail/Contrail" controversy other than what I have seen at that web site. I did speak to someone on the phone and did take part in a published study on Geoengineering.

Here at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, we performed a computer simulation of the effect of reducing solar radiation incident on Earth's surface to counteract the CO2 greenhouse effect.

I said that we originally did the study to try to show that Lowell Wood and Edward Teller were wrong. They proposed that scattering or reflecting sunlight could largely reverse the climate impacts of global warming. I thought that this was wrong because the seasonal and latitudinal pattern of radiative forcing by a change in solar radiation is very different than that produced by CO2 in the atmosphere.

To our surprise, we found that in our model this geoengineering scheme worked quite well. Nevertheless, in our last paragraph of our paper, we do list many reasons why this might not be a good idea, and suggest that the best course is to reduce CO2 emissions to the atmosphere.

We never mentioned, nor do I know anything about, health effects from aluminum oxide.

I said, perhaps too flippantly, that I did hear rumors that some geoengineering research would be funded next year as a backstop failure technology, but that it probably wouldn't happen because it could be political suicide [i.e., it could get bad press, and funding this probably wouldn't win anybody any votes].

I also said that I don't believe there is any large-scale secret geoengineering research program. If there was such a program, how come a guy [like myself] who is in touch with the main proponents of this concept [Lowell Wood and Edward Teller] isn't getting any money from it? I think if there was such a program, people at this lab [which does all kinds of secret nuclear weapons work] would be getting money from it.

Cheers,

Ken

| Ken Caldeira

| Climate and Carbon Cycle Group

| Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory



http://cdebsjournal.topcities.com/ColumAlive.htm

[Bonehead9]

I did not draw it, but I like it. Accurately captures the paranoia, and lack of any real science in their pet conspiracy.

And did you notice the big pile of steaming bovine excrement?

[jayreynolds]

"Chemtrails again... heehee
Those chemtrail muppets are at it again - they now have the following 'petition' on the front page of their website..."

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=fc761ff886b7d5a80e99a8c9f7f62ba5&threadid=70233&perpage=15&highlight=chemtrails&pagenumber=1

============================
"God!! If ever we wondered how whole Medieaeval societies could be taken over by belief in the supernatural, demons and the occult here is frightening evidence of the utter gullibility of parts of society today. The spurious "science" they present indicates a lack of any critical ability whatever, the credulous acceptance of so much patent rubbish is frightening, and the total rejection of the rights to dissent and free speech in their intro is very disturbing too. What an utter bunch of tossers! How do such people survive in a modern world? If I hadnt seen it myself I would not have believed in something so bizarre."
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=fc761ff886b7d5a80e99a8c9f7f62ba5&threadid=11885&highlight=chemtrails

[jayreynolds]

"One frigid day, I crept past the Chemtrails guy and took his pamphlet. He fixed my eyes with a possessed stare, and I had a strange premonition that we were being watched. I quickly tucked the brochure into my pocket before disappearing unassumingly through the revolving doors of my place of employment. When I eventually got around to examining the simply printed sheets of paper, a torrent of paranoiac theories leapt off the pages. The CIA and the Air Force were trying to slowly poison all of us by dumping toxic gases and genetically engineered viruses high in the atmosphere. Those innocent white contrails puffing through the stratosphere on any given day were anything but innocuous, the warnings stated; they were in fact part of a vast conspiracy to slowly but steadily degrade our lungs and immune systems. And epidemics of bronchial infections and asthma were only the beginning. Furthermore, black helicopters were even at that moment hovering malevolently over the city, keeping us all under surveillance. You could see them at times when there were NO traffic reports on the radio, a dead giveaway that something nasty was afoot. But we, the people of America, are too anesthesized by television, media lies, and pornography to even notice."


http://www.xylostyle.com/businesspolitics.html

[jayreynolds]

He's an insane clown troll, and everybody at Chemtrailcentral knows it. He was sent to this forum by halva to cause disruption. He will not be welcome to post at megasprayer chem11proboards.

there's about ten pages of gobbledygook here, but it shows what gaicom really is:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/001426-10.html

[halva]

It would be advantageous for Reynolds to establish a disinformation centre in Greece. Please go ahead.

[gaiacomm]

One last entry:

All of you have very important points and they all make sense.
The problem is that none of you has the authority or command to suggest and influence the individuals that have masterminded the Middle East war or any other conflict.
America is very guilty of miss-leading the public at large and others within certain offices to the real reasons why these invasions must take place. It is not religion but control of natural resources and its people to accept democratic policies to absorb and pillage the land and its people for complete control of all to satisfy some revelation that these few should be the masters of the earth and enjoy its fruit.

The Paradigm must rest with us to change these systems of governments and spread the wealth. These people did not appear from some divine intervention but were reared in the same environment as we with one exception they formed an alliance long ago and convinced us with false truths that they would lead us all into freedom and peace. Well now, look around you and see what few bones they have cast down in our pits.

Our own fears and ignorance is what these people rely on and our addictive behaviors to comforts that they place in front of us to grow accustomed to, to the point that we cannot part with them. At that point, it is then used as a tool to corner and control our thoughts and movements. The simple freedoms we have are a small piece to what really is out there for us.

We have only ourselves to blame if we are dissatisfied with the geopolitical politics that plays out each day for our entertainment. The military is controlled by false promise and meager wages. The politians that create wars never are first in line to fight along side with others. Did Bush stand with his troops on the front line and yell charge? Did Tony Blair?

Loss of life for someone else’s gain is not right and should be dealt with by the people affected. We know that Saddam was a mass murderer but the USA helped him into power. Now the USA helped him out of power. In addition, we all sit and throw stones because we feel it is right and we fear of standing up in the crowd and demanding a recall.

We accept that the USA and others hold truth to protect whom? The guilty?
Does anyone really wish to see all of us live together and exchange ideas?

A clear indication that the USA started off on the wrong foot when in its Declaration of Independence it stated that all Men are created equal…. When it should have read all Men and Women are created equal.

We are all intelligent and understand that women are equal to us.

They are HUMAN BEINGS! As for differences, well that is what we all iron out thru discussions and open debate to setup a system that allows for freedom of expression without the fear of reprisal and ridicule. The Planet is not prejudice and provides everything we need to improve ourselves and live free. Every tool, machine, food, weapon, technology, everything we touch came from the earth and was reshaped to our will. We do not have to live as we do, the laws of Physics and Science do not define these rules we live by. We can easily change them with our will! Our brains have the ability to do anything we choose. The computers and internet was formed inside someone’s brain then they went to gather the parts from the earth to make what we see and feel each day.

It is not a religion that controls us but ourselves allowing others to control. If we combine, our intellects together we can accomplish much, but we must all change ourselves from within first then we can proceed. It does not take centuries to change if we all are willing to sacrifice some to gain more later.

The Media controls us and we accept that because we feel that we can do nothing but talk amongst ourselves and hope that it will get better. Well it will not as long as you all sit on your hands and wait for the other person to take the risk.
We all can debate and write essays all day but outside there are wars, death, poor, sick, uneducated, murder, rape, lies, enslavement, and so many other controls that we have learned to accept by being enabled by our leaders and peers that we put so much faith into.
We can replace and redirect the world events if we work together and demonstrate that we are tired of being tired and as the famous quote from the movie Network, “I am as mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore"!

One last thought, if the French had not assisted the USA during the separation from England what would it be like now? If the Black Slaves who numbered 200,000 had not joined, the Union Army would the Civil War’s outcome been different.

Think about it!

Dr. Judah Ben-Hur

[halva]

As I said, Gaiacomm, this is an unviable stance and inappropriate as a last word. There is no 'impartial referee' position between the two viewpoints that have been expressed on this forum.'

[airtankerpilot]

It would be advantageous for Reynolds to establish a disinformation centre in Greece. Please go ahead.

Is that the best you can do? That line got old about 5 years ago from chemmies. Its all part of a standard reply, like it is from some template or form letter. It is some automatic chemmie procedure.

When out of facts and can not reply, label the "debunker" a :

Disinformation agent
Government agent
uncaring about environment
Idiot
Political opponent

I doubt there is any need for some "disinformation centre" since I doubt you are having any better success in Greece of recruiting chemtrail cult members, than the chemmies are here in US.


As I said, Gaiacomm, this is an unviable stance and inappropriate as a last word. There is no 'impartial referee' position between the two viewpoints that have been expressed on this forum.'

You are the last person that should be using "impartial" due to you wanting chemtrail nonbelievers banned, and then wanting this moved to Megasprayer, which is about as impartial of a website as Stalin was democratic.

There is no need for a referee, you just want someone you can plead to to try and have people banned. If you wanted impartial, you would not be asking people to go to megasprayer. This site is an impartial as you will get. Arianna or the mods have not taken any sides, nor tossed out anyone. Its a big free for all, and you are not doing so well. Thats your own fault.

[gaiacomm]

As I said, Gaiacomm, this is an unviable stance and inappropriate as a last word. There is no 'impartial referee' position between the two viewpoints that have been expressed on this forum.'


Halva:

I respect your opinion but however we should leave these people to their own devices and understand that there are still people that are ignorant of their ignorance!

We know that Chemtrails are caused by mans inability to take the earths environment into consideration and these people who wish evidence of proof of Chemtrails they themselves are contributers to the environment by dumping chemicals into the air and water with no care.

They are the same ones that will place growth hormones in milk and they will not even drink it.....Monsanto...... So you have not lost but have gained an edge knowing that they are on the run because soon the truth will be revealed and not at their whim!

[halva]

Gaiacomm if you respect my opinion you could not have said "All of you have important points and they all make sense".

There are no referees in this game.

[gaiacomm]

Gaiacomm if you respect my opinion you could not have said "All of you have important points and they all make sense".

There are no referees in this game.

Halva:

Its not my last word!

But what is interesting with these people attacking you and others is that they are spilling their spoils for me and others to learn, assimilate and then use against them down the road. Be patient Halva, its not time yet!

[halva]

Of course I am patient. But please don't resort to the referee stance again. It is unbecoming.

[gaiacomm]

Of course I am patient. But please don't resort to the referee stance again. It is unbecoming.


Halva:

No need to worry. Well some people may wish to check other threads.

I am not the mediator or referee, just one voice with an opinion!

[jayreynolds]

Dona Terry wrote:
"To the newer members who aren't aware of the United Nations programs,
this is for your study and research:
There are photos of the covers of some of their reports in this
second url. Even photos of chemtrails.
One of the reports (Climate Change, Mitigation, 2001) on its cover,
shows chemtrails in the "spreading out" phase."

===================
see the photo for yourself:
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg3/index.htm

[gaiacomm]

Dona Terry wrote:
"To the newer members who aren't aware of the United Nations programs,
this is for your study and research:
There are photos of the covers of some of their reports in this
second url. Even photos of chemtrails.
One of the reports (Climate Change, Mitigation, 2001) on its cover,
shows chemtrails in the "spreading out" phase."

===================
see the photo for yourself:
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg3/index.htm


Jay:

Good information! Can you provide some more? This will help others understand and make their own choice.

[jayreynolds]

Well, you asked for it.......

Dear Saddam, my firm would be delighted to do business...

Stuart Millar
Thursday October 31, 2002
The Guardian

As the reviled leader of a country crippled by sanctions and open to invasion, Saddam Hussein does not automatically spring to mind as a good business prospect. But yesterday it emerged that the Iraqi president's email in-box contains not only thousands of eulogies but a surprising number of offers from western companies seeking work.
Among the thousands of missives discovered by the American website Wired when one of its enterprising journalists unlocked the mother of all in-boxes was an email from the chairman of a London-based company offering to broker deals on behalf of the Iraqi government. "Please consider this letter as secret... I ensure you absolute secrecy," the unnamed executive assured President Saddam.

Similarly, on August 16, the chief executive of Gaiacomm, a California-based wireless technology company, sent an email to the Iraqi leader's address requesting a meeting to discuss "technology improvements and exporting of rich technology abroad". In press releases and public statements, the company has claimed to have developed technology capable of being used as a "weapon to ignite large sections of the atmosphere and incinerate all living creatures within its pre-selected coordinates".

The company has subsequently insisted that it had contacted President Saddam to obtain permission to install a communications antenna inside his borders. "No way would we ever give the weapon of mass destruction technology to Mr Hussein," a Gaiacomm executive told Wired. Other messages were downright abusive. A former Gulf war veteran took the opportunity of informing the Iraqi president how sorry he was that a "political solution decision was made before my friends and I had a chance to completely wipe your cartoon character of a leader off the face of the earth".

This message is unlikely to have troubled Iraq's leader; like every other email Wired found in the in-box, it was unread.

Special

[halva]

This was a smart move.

The first is an indication that you preparing to stop telling lies about geoengineering.

The second that you are trying to do a salami with Gaiacomm. Well, all that stuff about Saddam Hussein etc. is not exactly new.

[halva]

Saddam Hussein, Noriega, Milosevic, Reynolds.

They're picked up, they're thrown away.

[jayreynolds]

so, wayne, now it's clear, and you even admit it, you knew all along your fudgepackin buddy giacom was just an internet loon. The questions all your buddies need to be asking is why you sent him out to represent their "chemtrails" debate?

On, and by the way, maybe you should explain exactly why you have consistently promoted the "other white-meat loon", Jim Phelps- "DOE Whistleblower".
You are quickly wearing the patience of your fellow cultees a bit thin as you send loonies out in public to put their particular sort of 'spin' to the chemtrails hoax. One is left to wonder why?

Tell me now, Wayne, was all this done purposefully, or are you just too stupid to be trusted in public places?

[gaiacomm]

Well, you asked for it.......

Dear Saddam, my firm would be delighted to do business...

Stuart Millar
Thursday October 31, 2002
The Guardian

As the reviled leader of a country crippled by sanctions and open to invasion, Saddam Hussein does not automatically spring to mind as a good business prospect. But yesterday it emerged that the Iraqi president's email in-box contains not only thousands of eulogies but a surprising number of offers from western companies seeking work.
Among the thousands of missives discovered by the American website Wired when one of its enterprising journalists unlocked the mother of all in-boxes was an email from the chairman of a London-based company offering to broker deals on behalf of the Iraqi government. "Please consider this letter as secret... I ensure you absolute secrecy," the unnamed executive assured President Saddam.

Similarly, on August 16, the chief executive of Gaiacomm, a California-based wireless technology company, sent an email to the Iraqi leader's address requesting a meeting to discuss "technology improvements and exporting of rich technology abroad". In press releases and public statements, the company has claimed to have developed technology capable of being used as a "weapon to ignite large sections of the atmosphere and incinerate all living creatures within its pre-selected coordinates".

The company has subsequently insisted that it had contacted President Saddam to obtain permission to install a communications antenna inside his borders. "No way would we ever give the weapon of mass destruction technology to Mr Hussein," a Gaiacomm executive told Wired. Other messages were downright abusive. A former Gulf war veteran took the opportunity of informing the Iraqi president how sorry he was that a "political solution decision was made before my friends and I had a chance to completely wipe your cartoon character of a leader off the face of the earth".

This message is unlikely to have troubled Iraq's leader; like every other email Wired found in the in-box, it was unread.

Special


Jay:'

Got Milk?

[gaiacomm]

Gaiacomm: Open letter to the People of the United States of America!

By Judah Ben-Hur



It is quite apparent by the events that are unfolding worldwide that a more creative approach is required to “shock” the world into a state of awareness. Gaiacomm: Open letter to the People of the United States of America!

It is quite apparent by the events that are unfolding worldwide that a more creative approach is required to “shock” the world into a state of awareness.
We can write essays, try to contact our senators, business leaders, all forms of public and private media to inform, shout on the streets, strap bombs to us and blow up people, fly planes into buildings, play cat and mouse with Terriost leaders, murder innocent bystanders, lie to the public, hide secrets, and many other atrocities.

Fact: the Jews, (Hebrews) are not the chosen ones and neither is any other race of humans. Jews, (Hebrews) are recognized because they scream and bitch the loudest. What about the American Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Armenians, Gypsies, Russians, Polish, Germans, French, Irish, Africans and its tribes, Dutch, Swedish, Canadians, Pigmies, Mexicans, Spanish, Portuguese, in short all human nationalities of races and religions that inhabit this tiny planet. They all have equal rights as well, which includes male and female of all sexual genders and kinds on this planet.

Freedom is a gift from GOD to all creatures that inhabit this planet. It is the right of anyone who can recognize these facts that our collective freedoms have been systematically eliminated by groups of peoples that have only their self-serving interests at heart and it is our right to rid this planet completely of the atrocities that are being levied on all of us each day.

Fact: A movie star is only a star as long as you buy tickets to see that person. A music star and TV star are in the same category. They are nothing if we do not recognize them as such.

The power is with us not them, they do not care about you, and only the money you spend on them. Can you actually contact and tell your star how you feel, or are they untouchable?
Products in stores, cars on streets, all of the marketing hype that we see each day, even the so-called President of the United States is only as powerful and controlling as WE the People allow. We can only blame ourselves for our woes, because we allow these people to control us by our own selfish pleasures and desires that so many people take advantage.
If we collectively stopped, buying tickets to movies, CD’s, and all forms of media then these stars would fall from the skies and lay in the dirt with us all.

Oprah Winfrey is an idol created by us, not her; she is a simple overweight black woman who gains her freedom thru hard work and creative manipulative media control.

We purchase CD’s from 50 Cents, (crack dealer), and Marshall, (M&M) who hates his mother because we like the message and its ok to be BAD, or be fond of children like Michael Jackson, or even bake cookies with insider trader Martha Stewart.

We take these normal people and make them super gods and we wonder why we cannot have the same fortunes. Millions of dollars are being spent on these people each day while we lie in bed in our one bedroom rented apartment and dream.

Wake up America and the World, the true power of change is in each of us. True freedom is colorblind and accepts all who truly desire its warmth. It is not right for anyone on this planet to be hungry, to be without a place to stay, to have free education, to have a place in society to contribute thru work of some kind, to care for the sick and old without any regard to cost, to eliminate all counterproductive causes that inflict hardships on any human, and to support and carry out a Regime Change to any country that obstructs the freedoms of others to be an individual.

Rise up and be counted not by your leaders but by your peers within your group. Form a coalition of peoples that will standup to the Regimes that control us and replace them completely with one that is truly governed and managed by the people and for the people.

When we all stand up against the regime it will shout loud, but will soon get tired of its voice, then we take our trumpets and march in the streets and blow them until the walls of despair and control come crumbling down around us.

Fact: are Black people in America free? It took a black woman named Isabella to insight the Civil War in America, and by the way, it was a Dutch family that helped her to freedom.

Fact: It was a half black man who looked white named Farad who instigated and formed the Black Muslims of America, which eventually caused the death of Malcolm X, even some of the first black slave instigators for freedom lost their lives thru hanging snitched by their own to the white masters of their plot, the pitiful treatment of women of all kinds by men who are ignorant of their ignorance thru all time, when in fact women are responsible to keep the balance on this planet and need to be recognized that they are equally human too!

America, wake up and smell the coffee, you have lost your freedoms thru manipulative media control and thru impassive reasoning. Your rights have been shifted to the wealthy by signing over your paycheck thru illegal taxation. Your very existence in America is based on collective reasoning and collective representation.

America’s stars are each of us that support this empire thru our hard work. The empire that surrounds us like a succubus slowly sucks away our life force thru persuasive slave master relationships.

America stand up, be counted, and do not allow your fear to win. The controllers control thru our ignorance and fear.

Replace the US government with one that is for the people, all people of any race or creed. Control business thru the withholding of revenue by selective spending.

Do you realize that we outnumber the wolves and can corner the wolves and either banish them or reprogram them for our desire?

Now ask yourself this, are you truly free?

America is the wealthiest nation on earth and cannot even feed, house, educate, employ or reform its people. Look around the streets and see the faces of the homeless. How can America go into other countries and demand submission when we are not in control!

We all sit back and let the “other” handle it, we are afraid of not being able to watch TV or get gas for our SUV, or buy the new dress or something we desire to have to ad to our overwhelming collection of “things”, or we are just trying to find a job, or a place to live for the night, or try to eat for the day. But we say, “oh this can not happen to me”, well I am sure that same thought was in the minds of the people when they were burning alive in the world trade center in New York, or the soldiers in Iraq when they were shot to death, or the homeless person who died alone on the streets, or the people on the bus in Israel when they were blown apart by a suicide bomber, or a lonely old person who died alone in a care center somewhere in America, or someone somewhere on this planet that was murdered, raped, eaten alive by a wild animal, chopped in pieces by a machete by some rival tribe, or some unexpected death or demise.

In America we think that excess is normal! Well let’s see, American soldiers are still being murdered in Iraq and other countries everyday, and we accept that. Israel can get away with murder and bitch to the USA for help. What about that poor American female that was ran over by a tank twice? Did we invade Israel and change its regime?

America, are you that passive that I can come into your house and steal anything I want, oh that is not fair, oh you will call the police because I interrupted your favorite TV show!

A civil war in America is brewing once again except this time you will be involved and not sit on the sidelines and eat hotdogs and be entertained.
Civil unrest and ignorance has caused this new civil war to take form.

Ask yourself, are you willing to die for freedom or would you prefer your neighbor so you can enjoy the comforts of freedom from your neighbors life? Let the other person take the risk as long as my “Americas Idol” program is not interrupted and I can go to work safely each day in my new SUV and not be distracted.

America you have been put on notice!

Dr. Judah Ben-Hur

[gaiacomm]

The case for regime change in the USA

A president and respected physicist of a Californian technologies company
dips into journalism to make his case for a more transparent United States
of America.

"Strange times are those in which we live when old and young are taught in
falsehoods school. And the one man that dares to tell the truth is called
at once a lunatic and a fool" - Plato

"And those who perform jihad for us, we shall certainly guide them in our
ways, and God is surely with the doers of good." (Quran XXXIX; 69)

"You have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad." (Hadith)

To all who read and understand: it is time to take the next step in
understanding. After careful and meticulous research, including access to
files and data guarded by the United States Government, I have uncovered
information that has been written about, talked about, read about, and in
many cases silenced to protect and to confuse those who wish to uncover its
not so guarded secrets.

Careful and planned exposure of this information seems to be the only way to
begin the process of enlightenment of not just the American people but all
peoples of this planet who are considered common men and women.

We cannot blame the "United States Government" for our woes, but ourselves
for allowing our own Constitution to manipulate and control not just us but
others in its path towards imperial rule, which by the way was why some
people left England to come to the Americas to rid themselves of that
tyranny.
True democracy does not impede growth or dominate others. It was established
to be a beacon for those who wish to call on its existence and only that. We
do not have the right to impose democracy on nations or peoples who do not
truly ask for it.

The United States in its own right is a terrorist country imposing
pseudo-democratic policies through crafty methods - controlling without
regard to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness! Regime change within
the United States should be seriously considered.

Fact: the United States has in its possession weapons of mass destruction,
so why does not the United Nations impose restrictions against the United
States?

Fear is the reason why no nation or individual will want to go up against
this Goliath! Well I have a small stone, I know where to throw it, and if I
have to by myself so be it.

The fact that Thomas Jefferson who co-authored the now infamous doctrine of
democracy himself was an advocate of slaves.

Hypocrisy runs through the veins of the elite American people who control
the destinies and lives of so many people.

What we all must learn is that the power in change is in the people that
make up the majority of the civilized and so-called uncivilized world.


What gives this small group of people their control over us is the fact that
they know we all will not collectively give up our lives to get back control
of the government and rid ourselves of the self-serving politicians and
business executives that control what we eat, where we sleep, who to like
and not like, what to read, what to write, how to dress, how and who to
love, who to hate, what race is superior, who gets education, who not, where
to travel, who lives, who dies, who eats, who does not eat, who gets elected
in office, who does not get elected, who is popular and who is not, who is
"in" who is not, what clothes to wear, what not, what movie or music star is
in, which one is not, who to disrespect who to not, who to be prejudice to
and who to not, what freedoms we have and have not, who gets destroyed, who
not, who must accept the "way" and who not, who goes to prison, and who not,
and the list goes on into infinity.

Remember that in the Constitution it does allow for bloodless regime change
within the government as long as we stand together and collectively vote for
our freedoms back.
Rid ourselves of the electoral college and other manipulative organizations
that are self-serving their own agendas at the expense, hard work and lives
of so many innocent and misguided people that are here within the borders of
despair.

The French Government should formally request that the Statue of Liberty be
returned to France. We all know what it was for.

The United States has over many years systematically infiltrated other
nations to "weed" out the non-conformers to the so-called Democratic process
and replace those with the showroom dummies of democracy.
Granted, the United States has some freedom of movement for its people but
not the way it was originally intended. Look at Africa, South America, and
parts of Europe, Asia and other nations that are sucking the teat of the cow
and its sour milk.

Collectively, we the people of the world should stand up and be counted on
to rid ourselves of individuals who are ignorant of their own ignorance and
replace this Constitution with one that includes all religions, all peoples,
all races, all nations and all who feel left out and want to be what they
want to be without the constraints of prejudice and restrictive law. Not to
run lawless but have the right to be an individual and collectively correct
this turmoil we are in.

The Earth is trying to warn us that we are spinning out of control and that
we need to correct ourselves soon or the earth will rid itself of this
infection and parasite called mankind that is slowly destroying its primary
intent to allow its inhabitants the freedom to live be fruitful and multiply
to the extent of finding a way to leave this planet and journey to others
and spread some sort of reason rather than an infectious spore.

I am a physicist and a patriot who, through years of being silent, had
almost forgotten my obligations. It is high time I and others like me use
our intellect and technology to stand up against an oppressor and rid
ourselves of this infection. We are a legion that wants to live a life of
peace and respect for all living things and have considerations for those
who are different and look for ways to truly accommodate those who are slow
in understanding.

We do not need your help just your patience and understanding of what we are
about.

We are America's best-kept secret that just got out of the "keep".

Judah Ben-Hur
Physicist

[jayreynolds]

Just like all the rest of his left-wing ilk, 'Sore' expects somebody else to pay for his ride through life.

Let me tell you a little something about this guy 'Sore'. He wears a suit and tie to work each day, drives an SUV, makes six figures at the multinational pharmaceutical corp and could easily pay for the whole sampling deal all by himself.

The whole truth is it was already offered to him for cost, by a lady who owns a plane, and would have made the flight for practically nothing. He has no intention of ever making such a flight, or seeing that such a thing ever takes place. He has everything to lose, because he will find nothing but planes leaving contrails, and he dam well knows it. :oops:

Still, pretty funny how he makes it sound like something from Star Trek, and how he needs a 'sugar daddy' to pay for it. More likely is that the "chemtrail" cult finds some gullible woman who can get some jack from 'Daddy Starbucks'. Strange how these commies cry "equality" till they find out they need some "rotten pig capitalist" money to get something done. :roll:

Jay
===============
'Sore' the parasite wrote:

"I agree with SMT, that a large-volume filtered particulate sample would be a very good start...and yes, collecting non-filterable gaseous components would be more difficult, though certainly possible.

After collection, the real expense comes from laboratory analyses for metals, organic compounds, and biologicals...each requiring completely different techniques and instrumentation.

We're not talking about a single grab sample either. For all procedures there would need to be analytical blanks, replicate samples, etc.

Anyone skilled in the art would readily understand just how complicated, and expensive, obtaining such samples would be.

Why do you think that Jay Reynolds and his cohorts constantly chortle about the absence of such? In a recent post he contends that if the 1800+ members of CTC donated $1/day (or $365 per year), that we'd have the money we'd need. Maybe so. But in this day and age, with all the numerous causes, and the simple economic stretch that most people are in, such fund raising is quite difficult.

And so, they can continue to laugh.

The fact of the matter is that a SINGLE PATRON could put them in their place quickly. A person of sufficient means could take great satisfaction is wiping that smug smile off their faces and pull the lid off this whole coverup.

Just one, the right ONE, is all that it would take."===============================

Yeah, 'Sore', that's
1800 members x $365.00 x five years= $3,285,000.00
That's not including interest accrued over the five years.

Yes, the world will continue to laugh.

[gaiacomm]

"Strange times are those in which we live when old and young are taught in
falsehoods school. And the one man that dares to tell the truth is called
at once a lunatic and a fool" - Plato

[Sore Throat]

It Never Ceases to Amaze Me how many falsehoods Reynolds can post with total impunity.

What I sense most, with his large, bold letters is fear.

Plain and simple... FEAR!

And yes, one properly designed and executed sampling program would simply blow him away.

And yes, it would just take one person.

Scares you doesn't it Reynolds...

go ahead, huff, puff and lie some more.

You're creating your own destiny.

But while your at it, get some Ultra Endurance...

the smell of FEAR is so unbecoming!

[gaiacomm]

I am a physicist and a patriot who, through years of being silent, had
almost forgotten my obligations. It is high time I and others like me use
our intellect and technology to stand up against an oppressor and rid
ourselves of this infection. We are a legion that wants to live a life of
peace and respect for all living things and have considerations for those
who are different and look for ways to truly accommodate those who are slow
in understanding.

We do not need your help just your patience and understanding of what we are
about.

We are America's best-kept secret that just got out of the "keep".

Judah Ben-Hur
Physicist

[Yaak]

Sore Throat said, "And yes, one properly designed and executed sampling program would simply blow him away."

It would blow away all of us that chemtrail believers finally did something besides post on message boards, regardless of what the sampling program showed. SHUT UP and DO IT!!! :!:

I have not read any lies by Jay Reynolds. I have read a feed lot full of cow manure posted by chemtrail proponents, though.

The extensive research that Sore Throat has done helped convince me that there is no intentional altering of Earth's atmosphere occuring. If he would stop and read all that he has cut and pasted, he would see that he has debunked himself. :lol:

[jayreynolds]

So, 'Sore', I don't see any effort being undertaken to get samples, absolutely NONE, even though you've been bitching about it for five years.

You promised lab analysis would be done for barium two years ago, didn't get around to that yet, either, did you? but still bitchin about it here on Mrs. Huffington's forum..

I even remember five years ago you were claiming 'chemtrails" were brucellosis, never got around to those antibody tests you promised everybody you were going to get, did you?

And what about that 747 cabin air filter? should have been an excellent 'proxy' since it had flown through beaucoups air at high altitude.
You bragged to all your buddies behind the scenes about how you cut it up in pieces and sent it off to be analyzed.

WHERE'S THE BEEF?

I don't have to repeat this to you, though, 'Sore', you remember all of it, don't you?

And lookie here, Jay Reynolds is still challenging you, defying you, DARING YOU to get a sample and get it analyzed.

Jay Reynolds is the one who has been consistent.
'Sore'is the one who makes all sorts of promises, then doesn't deliver.

A reasonable person looking at this will judge that 'Sore' really is the frightened one, scared little sheep, afraid to spend his own money on a sampling effort, afraid to follow through, afraid of his own shadow.

Yep, real brave there, 'Sore' posting under a silly pseudonym, you're so damn afraid, you won't even risk anyone even knowing your name.

Guess what my ace-in the-hole is, 'Sore'?

[Sore Throat]

http://techreports.larc.nasa.gov/ltrs/refer/1997/NASA-97-rp1404.refer.html

Patrick Minnis, J. Kirk Ayers and Steven P. Weaver, Surface-Based Observations of Contrail Occurrence Frequency Over the U.S., April 1993--April 1994 , NASA RP-1404, December 1997, pp. 83, (4MB).


Abstract: Surface observers stationed at 19 U.S. Air Force Bases and Army Air Stations recorded the daytime occurence of contrails and cloud fraction on an hourly basis for the period April 1993 through April 1994. Each observation uses one of four main categories to report contrails as unobserved, non-persistent, and indeterminate. Additional classification includes the co-occurence of cirrus with each report. The data cover much of the continental U.S. including locations near major commercial air routes. The mean annual frequency of occurrence in unobstructed viewing conditions is 13 percent for these sites. Contrail occurrence varied substantially with location and season. Most contrails occurred during the winter months and least during the summer with a pronounced minimum during July. Although nocturnal observations are not available, it appears that the contrails have a dirunal variation that peaks during mid morning over most areas. Contrails were most often observed in areas near major commerical air corridors and least often over areas far removed from the heaviest air traffic. A significant correlation exists between mean contrail frequency and aircraft fuel usage above 7 km suggesting predictive potential for assessing future contrail effects on climate.

********************************************

Chemtrail skeptics should look carefully at this document, authored by Dr. Patrick Minnis of NASA.

Pay particular attention to the frequency, and period of the year, when persistent contrails were observered across the country.

Are these data consistent with what is being experienced since 1999?

If not, why not?

What laws of atmospheric chemistry and physics have changed to result in the far more frequent occurance of persistent contrails?

[Sore Throat]

Global Warming:

Prepare for the Worst, Says Next Host of Climate Change Meet

http://www.ipsnews.net/africa/interna.asp?idnews=22904


Climate debate in the journals, on the Hill

On July 2, the World Meteorological Organization issued a statement saying that the number and intensity of weather extremes experienced around the world this year are evidence that global climate change is actually under way.

http://www.agiweb.org/geotimes/sept03/NN_debate.html


The Disinformation Campaigns of Big Coal -- A Short History

Origins of Fossil Fuel Disinformation Campaigns

http://www.heatisonline.org/contentserver/objecthandlers/index.cfm?id=4380&method=full


Leading Climate Scientists Reaffirm View that Late 20th Century Warming Was Unusual and Resulted From Human Activity

http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/prrl/prrl0319.html


CLIMATE STUDY: EMBRACED BY WHITE HOUSE, BUT TRASHED BY EDITOR

http://www.aps.org/WN/WN03/wn080103.cfm


Abrupt climate change
Cutting back on fossil fuels urgent for national security

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/orl-edpweaver11031104mar11,1,2565222.story


Damage from Warming Becoming 'Irreversible,' Says New Report

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/oneworld/20040315/wl_oneworld/4536815561079359338


CLIMATE CHANGE:All Downhill From Here?

Science, Vol 303, Issue 5664, 1600-1602 , 12 March 2004


Aviation Policy 'Will Have Huge Global Warming Impact'

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2652045


Global Warming: The D.C. Freeze

BY WALTER CRONKITE

"This is an issue that cannot, and must not, be ignored any longer."

http://www.yankton.net/stories/031104/opE_20040311039.shtml


Do global warming dangers lie under seas?

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4286438/


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CO2 Sequestration & Mitigation


Southern Ocean study to better understand global warming

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2849885a7693,00.html



Monterey, Calif., scientists fertilize ocean with iron
Aim of experiments is to increase plankton

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/7991019.htm?1c



Priorities for CO2 Mitigation and Sustainable, Affordable, Clean Energy

http://scientistsfordean.org/node/view/82




The CO2 Capture Project

http://www.co2captureproject.org/overview/overview.htm



CO2 Sequestration

http://www.co2sequestration.info/



CO2 Geological Storage R&D Project

http://script3.ftech.net/~ieagreen/project_specific.php4?project_id=96



GEOLOGIC CO2 SEQUESTRATION PROJECT

http://energy.er.usgs.gov/projects/co2_sequestration/co2_index.htm



Direct Experiments on the Ocean Disposal of Fossil Fuel CO2

SCIENCE 284: 943-945 (1999).

http://www.mbari.org/ghgases/deep/release.htm



Amazon carbon sink effect 'slows'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3499500.stm

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


The reality of abrupt climate change.

The reality of ongoing attempts at mitigation.

Just why are ANY atmospheric mitigation projects considered IMPOSSIBLE, especially when they have been so widely promoted?

To date, No skeptic has answered THAT question!

[jayreynolds]

'Sore' wrote:
"Pay particular attention to the frequency, and period of the year, when persistent contrails were observered across the country.
Are these data consistent with what is being experienced since 1999?
If not, why not?
What laws of atmospheric chemistry and physics have changed to result in the far more frequent occurance of persistent contrails?"

Hey, Throat, the 'lull' during summer has happened every year.
You had your chance to present eveidence to the contrary of Dr. Minnis' research. I challenged you to rent a booth at the AAS meeting this summer, you wouldn't do it. You have bo research or data inconsistent or otherwise. Put up or shut up, you sound like a child beating his spoon on the table, as seeker says.

'Sore' wrote:
"Just why are ANY atmospheric mitigation projects considered IMPOSSIBLE, especially when they have been so widely promoted?

To date, No skeptic has answered THAT question!"

Sure I did, either page 1 or 2 of this forum. The NAS research said it would take 100,000 fully loaded flights of 747 cargo jets every 83 days to do the job. That is impossible, given the reality of the world we know and the sky that is an open book to pilots flying every day. It's simply not happening. Too many would know, too many would see, no secret that large could be kept secret in broad daylight, and you know it.


Where are these planes? They don't exist. It takes all the planes flying to make the contrails you see already. There simply aren't another 100,000 planes leftover to go around! You know damn well the planes you see flying are ordinary commercial jets. Flight Explorer told you that. All the rest is just coverup for your past mistakes. You're in so deep, you don't really want to come out, do you, 'Sore'? You are frightened.

All the rest is copy/paste. Idiot stuff like Deborah does at chem11's house of nuts. Lame loser stuff. :lol:

[Sore Throat]

Let's all remember that for years Jay Reynolds has vociferously argued that "global warming is a hoax!"

...and in the course of such debates, he has done everything possible to smear and demean those who express a concern for the preservation of our environment.

This history is so well documented that he doesn't even bother to deny it.

If you choose to side with such an individual, no amount of rational discourse or documented scientific evidence is likely to change your mind.

What you will note is that Reynolds and his kind attempt to bully their way though such open discussions by ultimately resorting to personal threats...

such is the fragility of their position.

Reynold's ignorantly chides, "All the rest is copy/paste. Idiot stuff like Deborah does at chem11's house of nuts. Lame loser stuff. " describing numerous reports documenting the severity of the climate change we are facing and the numerous scientific studies underway to mitigate such effects. His intellectual paucity terminates in total denial.

************************************************** ******


Reynolds claims:"The NAS research said it would take 100,000 fully loaded flights of 747 cargo jets every 83 days to do the job. That is impossible, given the reality of the world we know and the sky that is an open book to pilots flying every day. It's simply not happening. Too many would know, too many would see, no secret that large could be kept secret in broad daylight, and you know it. "


Apparently there are those with a different opion as to the cost of such a program.

Edward Teller states, "This could be done by deliberately introducing fine particles -- such as those thrown up naturally from volcanoes -- into the upper atmosphere to scatter sunlight and heat back into space.

Such a solution might cost as much as $1 billion a year -- or just $100 million if technologically advanced options were employed. "

http://www.ncpa.org/pi/enviro/envpd/pdenv125.html

http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/981/teller.html

Gregory Benford, Professor of Physics at the University of California Irving states:

"Changing the fuel mixture in a jet engine to burn rich can leave a ribbon of fog behind for up to three months, though as it spreads it becomes invisible to the eye. These motes would also come down mostly in rain, not troubling the brow of the EPA. Fuel costs about 15 percent of airlines' cash operating expenses, and running rich increases costs by only a few percent. For about $10 million, this method would offset the 1990 U.S. greenhouse emissions. Adding this to the cost of an airline ticket would boost prices perhaps 1 percent. An added asset is that quietly running rich on airline fuel will attract little notice, doesn't even change sunsets, and is hard to muster a media-saturated demonstration against."

http://reason.com/9711/fe.benford.shtml

Who can say that this is not what is being observed.

Reynolds certainly has NO DATA to support his position that this is NOT happening.

In reality, he is no different than those he so visciously criticizes. He too has NO DATA to back up his claims that ALL PERSISTENT CONTRAILS are nothing but ice crystals. It is simply his belief.

If it's as easy as he claims to make such a collection, and perform such analyses, why hasn't he produce one piece of data to support his position?

Interesting.


What is also interesting to note is the following. In the paper

Patrick Minnis, J. Kirk Ayers and Steven P. Weaver, Surface-Based Observations of Contrail Occurrence Frequency Over the U.S., April 1993--April 1994 , NASA RP-1404, December 1997, pp. 83, (4MB).

http://techreports.larc.nasa.gov/ltrs/refer/1997/NASA-97-rp1404.refer.html

Please look carefully at Figure 7. You will note that in July, the occurance of PERSISTENT CONTRAILS at the eighteen sampling sites across the country breaks down as follows:

11 sites reported persistent trails 0-5% of the time

6 sites recorded persistent trails 5-10% of the time

Only ONE site, the Wright Patterson Air Force Base reported trails occuring 10-15% of the time.

Just how many locations in the country see such persistent trails at a far greater frequency than that which was carefully documented by NASA in 1993-94.?

Why is this happening?

[gaiacomm]

Jay:

Got Milk?

[letxa2000]

Reynolds certainly has NO DATA to support his position that this is NOT happening. In reality, he is no different than those he so visciously criticizes. He too has NO DATA to back up his claims that ALL PERSISTENT CONTRAILS are nothing but ice crystals. It is simply his belief.

Reynolds position is based on accepted knowledge and science. Lacking evidence to the contrary, it is the default assumption and the assumption that any logical person or scientist would make. If you wish to be taken seriously it is your responsibility, as the person making unorthodox and unsupported claims, to prove your assertion. It really isn't Reynolds' responsibility to prove what science already assumes and to prove you are wrong--it's your responsibility to prove you are right.

[halva]

It's not as simple as this because - and if you have read and understood Jay Michaelson's 'Manhattan Project' paper you will perceive the new element - the geoengineering logic is not only a status quo logic but also has a subversive side to it. This is why some ecologists have been coopted into it, and the ecological milieu as a whole is silent about it. International law has not been able to keep up with practice. Michaelson judges that it would be more difficult to render geoengineering practices legal than it would be to change the fossil-fuel-based economy that makes them "necessary".

It is difficult for geoengineering to be officially recognized until such time as it can be made legal. That is what Bodansky's writings are all about. It is the sections of society with a 'social engineering' conception of legality rather than a conservative formalistic conception that are complicit with geoengineering practice. This is why it is conservatives believing in 'the rule of law' who should be duty bound, in terms of their own principles, to be truthful about what is being done.

Leftists, socialists, ecologists, those espousing the ideal of 'world government' and the politicisation of the legal system are those who can most easily justify dishonesty about the reality of geoengineering. Michaelson explains all this, and exemplifies it.

This is why Reynolds and company, in this matter, are such 'traitors' to traditional conservative ideals, in the sense of respect for constitutional legality and the rule of law.

[mathec]

In response to Gaia postings on Thu Mar 18 re- “Open letter to the People of the United States of America!” and “The case for regime change in the USA “.
-----------------------------------


Congratulations gaiacomm on two excellent articles! I don’t know whether you realize or not, the insights in these articles, almost correspond with the concepts in Citizens Rights League. We should join forces in the endeavor to awaken the sleeping herd to the hard facts behind the world of illusion created by the vision media.

The chemtrail issue, whether true or not, is only one effect out of the multi thousands. We ought to put all our energies into exposing and eliminating the causes of the effects…and the effects will diminish.

Keep up the good work, :D
Steve

[gaiacomm]

The case for regime change in the USA

A president and respected physicist of a Californian technologies company
dips into journalism to make his case for a more transparent United States
of America.

"Strange times are those in which we live when old and young are taught in
falsehoods school. And the one man that dares to tell the truth is called
at once a lunatic and a fool" - Plato

"And those who perform jihad for us, we shall certainly guide them in our
ways, and God is surely with the doers of good." (Quran XXXIX; 69)

"You have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad." (Hadith)

To all who read and understand: it is time to take the next step in
understanding. After careful and meticulous research, including access to
files and data guarded by the United States Government, I have uncovered
information that has been written about, talked about, read about, and in
many cases silenced to protect and to confuse those who wish to uncover its
not so guarded secrets.

Careful and planned exposure of this information seems to be the only way to
begin the process of enlightenment of not just the American people but all
peoples of this planet who are considered common men and women.

We cannot blame the "United States Government" for our woes, but ourselves
for allowing our own Constitution to manipulate and control not just us but
others in its path towards imperial rule, which by the way was why some
people left England to come to the Americas to rid themselves of that
tyranny.
True democracy does not impede growth or dominate others. It was established
to be a beacon for those who wish to call on its existence and only that. We
do not have the right to impose democracy on nations or peoples who do not
truly ask for it.

The United States in its own right is a terrorist country imposing
pseudo-democratic policies through crafty methods - controlling without
regard to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness! Regime change within
the United States should be seriously considered.

Fact: the United States has in its possession weapons of mass destruction,
so why does not the United Nations impose restrictions against the United
States?

Fear is the reason why no nation or individual will want to go up against
this Goliath! Well I have a small stone, I know where to throw it, and if I
have to by myself so be it.

The fact that Thomas Jefferson who co-authored the now infamous doctrine of
democracy himself was an advocate of slaves.

Hypocrisy runs through the veins of the elite American people who control
the destinies and lives of so many people.

What we all must learn is that the power in change is in the people that
make up the majority of the civilized and so-called uncivilized world.


What gives this small group of people their control over us is the fact that
they know we all will not collectively give up our lives to get back control
of the government and rid ourselves of the self-serving politicians and
business executives that control what we eat, where we sleep, who to like
and not like, what to read, what to write, how to dress, how and who to
love, who to hate, what race is superior, who gets education, who not, where
to travel, who lives, who dies, who eats, who does not eat, who gets elected
in office, who does not get elected, who is popular and who is not, who is
"in" who is not, what clothes to wear, what not, what movie or music star is
in, which one is not, who to disrespect who to not, who to be prejudice to
and who to not, what freedoms we have and have not, who gets destroyed, who
not, who must accept the "way" and who not, who goes to prison, and who not,
and the list goes on into infinity.

Remember that in the Constitution it does allow for bloodless regime change
within the government as long as we stand together and collectively vote for
our freedoms back.
Rid ourselves of the electoral college and other manipulative organizations
that are self-serving their own agendas at the expense, hard work and lives
of so many innocent and misguided people that are here within the borders of
despair.

The French Government should formally request that the Statue of Liberty be
returned to France. We all know what it was for.

The United States has over many years systematically infiltrated other
nations to "weed" out the non-conformers to the so-called Democratic process
and replace those with the showroom dummies of democracy.
Granted, the United States has some freedom of movement for its people but
not the way it was originally intended. Look at Africa, South America, and
parts of Europe, Asia and other nations that are sucking the teat of the cow
and its sour milk.

Collectively, we the people of the world should stand up and be counted on
to rid ourselves of individuals who are ignorant of their own ignorance and
replace this Constitution with one that includes all religions, all peoples,
all races, all nations and all who feel left out and want to be what they
want to be without the constraints of prejudice and restrictive law. Not to
run lawless but have the right to be an individual and collectively correct
this turmoil we are in.

The Earth is trying to warn us that we are spinning out of control and that
we need to correct ourselves soon or the earth will rid itself of this
infection and parasite called mankind that is slowly destroying its primary
intent to allow its inhabitants the freedom to live be fruitful and multiply
to the extent of finding a way to leave this planet and journey to others
and spread some sort of reason rather than an infectious spore.

I am a physicist and a patriot who, through years of being silent, had
almost forgotten my obligations. It is high time I and others like me use
our intellect and technology to stand up against an oppressor and rid
ourselves of this infection. We are a legion that wants to live a life of
peace and respect for all living things and have considerations for those
who are different and look for ways to truly accommodate those who are slow
in understanding.

We do not need your help just your patience and understanding of what we are
about.

We are America's best-kept secret that just got out of the "keep".

Judah Ben-Hur
Physicist

[gaiacomm]

Gaiacomm: Open letter to the People of the United States of America!

By Judah Ben-Hur



It is quite apparent by the events that are unfolding worldwide that a more creative approach is required to “shock” the world into a state of awareness. Gaiacomm: Open letter to the People of the United States of America!

It is quite apparent by the events that are unfolding worldwide that a more creative approach is required to “shock” the world into a state of awareness.
We can write essays, try to contact our senators, business leaders, all forms of public and private media to inform, shout on the streets, strap bombs to us and blow up people, fly planes into buildings, play cat and mouse with Terriost leaders, murder innocent bystanders, lie to the public, hide secrets, and many other atrocities.

Fact: the Jews, (Hebrews) are not the chosen ones and neither is any other race of humans. Jews, (Hebrews) are recognized because they scream and bitch the loudest. What about the American Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Armenians, Gypsies, Russians, Polish, Germans, French, Irish, Africans and its tribes, Dutch, Swedish, Canadians, Pigmies, Mexicans, Spanish, Portuguese, in short all human nationalities of races and religions that inhabit this tiny planet. They all have equal rights as well, which includes male and female of all sexual genders and kinds on this planet.

Freedom is a gift from GOD to all creatures that inhabit this planet. It is the right of anyone who can recognize these facts that our collective freedoms have been systematically eliminated by groups of peoples that have only their self-serving interests at heart and it is our right to rid this planet completely of the atrocities that are being levied on all of us each day.

Fact: A movie star is only a star as long as you buy tickets to see that person. A music star and TV star are in the same category. They are nothing if we do not recognize them as such.

The power is with us not them, they do not care about you, and only the money you spend on them. Can you actually contact and tell your star how you feel, or are they untouchable?
Products in stores, cars on streets, all of the marketing hype that we see each day, even the so-called President of the United States is only as powerful and controlling as WE the People allow. We can only blame ourselves for our woes, because we allow these people to control us by our own selfish pleasures and desires that so many people take advantage.
If we collectively stopped, buying tickets to movies, CD’s, and all forms of media then these stars would fall from the skies and lay in the dirt with us all.

Oprah Winfrey is an idol created by us, not her; she is a simple overweight black woman who gains her freedom thru hard work and creative manipulative media control.

We purchase CD’s from 50 Cents, (crack dealer), and Marshall, (M&M) who hates his mother because we like the message and its ok to be BAD, or be fond of children like Michael Jackson, or even bake cookies with insider trader Martha Stewart.

We take these normal people and make them super gods and we wonder why we cannot have the same fortunes. Millions of dollars are being spent on these people each day while we lie in bed in our one bedroom rented apartment and dream.

Wake up America and the World, the true power of change is in each of us. True freedom is colorblind and accepts all who truly desire its warmth. It is not right for anyone on this planet to be hungry, to be without a place to stay, to have free education, to have a place in society to contribute thru work of some kind, to care for the sick and old without any regard to cost, to eliminate all counterproductive causes that inflict hardships on any human, and to support and carry out a Regime Change to any country that obstructs the freedoms of others to be an individual.

Rise up and be counted not by your leaders but by your peers within your group. Form a coalition of peoples that will standup to the Regimes that control us and replace them completely with one that is truly governed and managed by the people and for the people.

When we all stand up against the regime it will shout loud, but will soon get tired of its voice, then we take our trumpets and march in the streets and blow them until the walls of despair and control come crumbling down around us.

Fact: are Black people in America free? It took a black woman named Isabella to insight the Civil War in America, and by the way, it was a Dutch family that helped her to freedom.

Fact: It was a half black man who looked white named Farad who instigated and formed the Black Muslims of America, which eventually caused the death of Malcolm X, even some of the first black slave instigators for freedom lost their lives thru hanging snitched by their own to the white masters of their plot, the pitiful treatment of women of all kinds by men who are ignorant of their ignorance thru all time, when in fact women are responsible to keep the balance on this planet and need to be recognized that they are equally human too!

America, wake up and smell the coffee, you have lost your freedoms thru manipulative media control and thru impassive reasoning. Your rights have been shifted to the wealthy by signing over your paycheck thru illegal taxation. Your very existence in America is based on collective reasoning and collective representation.

America’s stars are each of us that support this empire thru our hard work. The empire that surrounds us like a succubus slowly sucks away our life force thru persuasive slave master relationships.

America stand up, be counted, and do not allow your fear to win. The controllers control thru our ignorance and fear.

Replace the US government with one that is for the people, all people of any race or creed. Control business thru the withholding of revenue by selective spending.

Do you realize that we outnumber the wolves and can corner the wolves and either banish them or reprogram them for our desire?

Now ask yourself this, are you truly free?

America is the wealthiest nation on earth and cannot even feed, house, educate, employ or reform its people. Look around the streets and see the faces of the homeless. How can America go into other countries and demand submission when we are not in control!

We all sit back and let the “other” handle it, we are afraid of not being able to watch TV or get gas for our SUV, or buy the new dress or something we desire to have to ad to our overwhelming collection of “things”, or we are just trying to find a job, or a place to live for the night, or try to eat for the day. But we say, “oh this can not happen to me”, well I am sure that same thought was in the minds of the people when they were burning alive in the world trade center in New York, or the soldiers in Iraq when they were shot to death, or the homeless person who died alone on the streets, or the people on the bus in Israel when they were blown apart by a suicide bomber, or a lonely old person who died alone in a care center somewhere in America, or someone somewhere on this planet that was murdered, raped, eaten alive by a wild animal, chopped in pieces by a machete by some rival tribe, or some unexpected death or demise.

In America we think that excess is normal! Well let’s see, American soldiers are still being murdered in Iraq and other countries everyday, and we accept that. Israel can get away with murder and bitch to the USA for help. What about that poor American female that was ran over by a tank twice? Did we invade Israel and change its regime?

America, are you that passive that I can come into your house and steal anything I want, oh that is not fair, oh you will call the police because I interrupted your favorite TV show!

A civil war in America is brewing once again except this time you will be involved and not sit on the sidelines and eat hotdogs and be entertained.
Civil unrest and ignorance has caused this new civil war to take form.

Ask yourself, are you willing to die for freedom or would you prefer your neighbor so you can enjoy the comforts of freedom from your neighbors life? Let the other person take the risk as long as my “Americas Idol” program is not interrupted and I can go to work safely each day in my new SUV and not be distracted.

America you have been put on notice!

Dr. Judah Ben-Hur

[gaiacomm]

In response to Gaia postings on Thu Mar 18 re- “Open letter to the People of the United States of America!” and “The case for regime change in the USA “.
-----------------------------------


Congratulations gaiacomm on two excellent articles! I don’t know whether you realize or not, the insights in these articles, almost correspond with the concepts in Citizens Rights League. We should join forces in the endeavor to awaken the sleeping herd to the hard facts behind the world of illusion created by the vision media.

The chemtrail issue, whether true or not, is only one effect out of the multi thousands. We ought to put all our energies into exposing and eliminating the causes of the effects…and the effects will diminish.

Keep up the good work, :D
Steve



Steve:

Thank you! We have already joined forces...just spread the word to everyone. Europe is ripe for change!

America needs a facelift!

[letxa2000]

halva: It's not as simple as this because - and if you have read and understood Jay Michaelson's 'Manhattan Project' paper you will perceive the new element - the geoengineering logic is not only a status quo logic but also has a subversive side to it. This is why some ecologists have been coopted into it, and the ecological milieu as a whole is silent about it. International law has not been able to keep up with practice. Michaelson judges that it would be more difficult to render geoengineering practices legal than it would be to change the fossil-fuel-based economy that makes them "necessary".

Halva, your entire message (partially quoted here) has nothing to do with the issue and suggesting Reynolds "and company" are traitors is to envoke patriotism in the absence of evidence to support your claims.

Reynolds "and company" are simply asking you to prove your claims, and I ask the same. As of yet you have not done that. Copy/pasting a bunch of articles and patents is useless. If there are "chemtrails" intentionally being sprayed into the atmosphere, simply prove that it is happening. No number of articles or patents on bioengineering gets you any closer to proving that "chemtrails" are anything but contrails. And patriotism has nothing to do with it and questioning anyone's patriotism on a matter that should be in the realm of science is essentially violaiing your own signature: "Let us deal gently with the truth. No more scaremongering: about nukes, about the climate, about terrorists, about anything." Let us deal gently with the truth in regards to "chemtrails" without resorting to questioning the patriotism of the other party. That has no place in what should be a scientific debate of the facts.

[gaiacomm]

halva: It's not as simple as this because - and if you have read and understood Jay Michaelson's 'Manhattan Project' paper you will perceive the new element - the geoengineering logic is not only a status quo logic but also has a subversive side to it. This is why some ecologists have been coopted into it, and the ecological milieu as a whole is silent about it. International law has not been able to keep up with practice. Michaelson judges that it would be more difficult to render geoengineering practices legal than it would be to change the fossil-fuel-based economy that makes them "necessary".

Halva, your entire message (partially quoted here) has nothing to do with the issue and suggesting Reynolds "and company" are traitors is to envoke patriotism in the absence of evidence to support your claims.

Reynolds "and company" are simply asking you to prove your claims, and I ask the same. As of yet you have not done that. Copy/pasting a bunch of articles and patents is useless. If there are "chemtrails" intentionally being sprayed into the atmosphere, simply prove that it is happening. No number of articles or patents on bioengineering gets you any closer to proving that "chemtrails" are anything but contrails. And patriotism has nothing to do with it and questioning anyone's patriotism on a matter that should be in the realm of science is essentially violaiing your own signature: "Let us deal gently with the truth. No more scaremongering: about nukes, about the climate, about terrorists, about anything." Let us deal gently with the truth in regards to "chemtrails" without resorting to questioning the patriotism of the other party. That has no place in what should be a scientific debate of the facts.




I am a physicist and a patriot who, through years of being silent, had
almost forgotten my obligations. It is high time I and others like me use
our intellect and technology to stand up against an oppressor and rid
ourselves of this infection. We are a legion that wants to live a life of
peace and respect for all living things and have considerations for those
who are different and look for ways to truly accommodate those who are slow
in understanding.

We do not need your help just your patience and understanding of what we are
about.

We are America's best-kept secret that just got out of the "keep".

Judah Ben-Hur

[airtankerpilot]

It Never Ceases to Amaze Me how many falsehoods Reynolds can post with total impunity.

What I sense most, with his large, bold letters is fear.

Plain and simple... FEAR!



Oh this just so ironic, coming from a chemmie.

You people run around, making wild claims of a vast giant aerial spraying conspiracy, without any evidence, posting contrail photos and airliner photos, and you claim Jay is fearmongering??? You accuse others of FEAR?

I dont think its Jay, debunkers or 99.99 percent of the people who see contrails and get scared.

Its the chemmies who have FEAR. Fear of airplanes, fear of science, fear of weather radars, fear of anything that they can not immediately understand.

Look on a chemmie site, they fear practicially everything around them. What does Jay or anyone else have to fear about chemmies? What are the odds chemmies would actually ever try a sampling program?

Zero.

What are the odds chemmies will drop the chemtrail issue after the samples turn up negative.

Zero.

They have too much of themselves invested in this crap, to just give it up. For some of them, its why they get up in the morning, its the sole meaning to their life.

[gaiacomm]

It Never Ceases to Amaze Me how many falsehoods Reynolds can post with total impunity.

What I sense most, with his large, bold letters is fear.

Plain and simple... FEAR!



Oh this just so ironic, coming from a chemmie.

You people run around, making wild claims of a vast giant aerial spraying conspiracy, without any evidence, posting contrail photos and airliner photos, and you claim Jay is fearmongering??? You accuse others of FEAR?






I dont think its Jay, debunkers or 99.99 percent of the people who see contrails and get scared.

Its the chemmies who have FEAR. Fear of airplanes, fear of science, fear of weather radars, fear of anything that they can not immediately understand.

Look on a chemmie site, they fear practicially everything around them. What does Jay or anyone else have to fear about chemmies? What are the odds chemmies would actually ever try a sampling program?

Zero.

What are the odds chemmies will drop the chemtrail issue after the samples turn up negative.

Zero.

They have too much of themselves invested in this crap, to just give it up. For some of them, its why they get up in the morning, its the sole meaning to their life.






Got Milk?

[airtankerpilot]

http://techreports.larc.nasa.gov/ltrs/refer/1997/NASA-97-rp1404.refer.html

Patrick Minnis, J. Kirk Ayers and Steven P. Weaver, Surface-Based Observations of Contrail Occurrence Frequency Over the U.S., April 1993--April 1994 , NASA RP-1404, December 1997, pp. 83, (4MB).


Abstract: Surface observers stationed at 19 U.S. Air Force Bases and Army Air Stations recorded the daytime occurence of contrails and cloud fraction on an hourly basis for the period April 1993 through April 1994. Each observation uses one of four main categories to report contrails as unobserved, non-persistent, and indeterminate. Additional classification includes the co-occurence of cirrus with each report. The data cover much of the continental U.S. including locations near major commercial air routes. The meanccurrence in unobstructed viewing conditions is 13 percent for these sites. Contrail occurrence varied substantially with location and season. Most contrails occurred during the winter months and least during the summer with a pronounced minimum during July. annual frequency of o Although nocturnal observations are not available, it appears that the contrails have a dirunal variation that peaks during mid morning over most areas. A significant correlation exists between mean contrail frequency and aircraft fuel usage above 7 km suggesting predictive potential for assessing future contrail effects on climate.

********************************************

Chemtrail skeptics should look carefully at this document, authored by Dr. Patrick Minnis of NASA.

Pay particular attention to the frequency, and period of the year, when persistent contrails were observered across the country.

Are these data consistent with what is being experienced since 1999?

If not, why not?

What laws of atmospheric chemistry and physics have changed to result in the far more frequent occurance of persistent contrails?

Yes, lets look at some gems from this. Are you sure you want to quote this in support of the chemtrail religion?

1. Contrail occurrence varied substantially with location and season. Most contrails occurred during the winter months and least during the summer with a pronounced minimum during July If you read chemmie boards, activity drops off during the summer and them come winter, its "Wow, biggest spray day ever! The spray boys were out in full force"!

2. Contrails were most often observed in areas near major commerical air corridors and least often over areas far removed from the heaviest air traffic. Someday chemmies will realize commercial airline aviation is usually routed along specific corridors and routings.

3. A significant correlation exists between mean contrail frequency and aircraft fuel usage above 7 km suggesting predictive potential for assessing future contrail effects on climate Gasp? You mean they did not see any low level trails? That the most aircraft are above 7km, the more contrails?

4. The mechanism for contrail formation is complex,
depending on a variety of parameters including the type of
jet engine, the sort of fuel, and the ambient temperature and
humidity. This sentence by itself debunks chemtrails. According to the chemtrail religion, contrails have to look the same, be short lived, and any variance from that means chemtrails.

5. They generally form at temperatures less than -30°C
at high relative humidities or below -50°C at moderate to
low moisture levels. Someday chemmies will realize it gets cold with altitude. You would be surprised how many times chemmies have said "There should not have been trails, it was a hot day"

6. If formed in clear air, contrails can spread, developing into cirrus
indistinguishable from natural clouds.

Thanks, your article sure debunks chemtrails. Every chemmie needs to read it. There is nothing in there that supports chemtrails.

There is nothing new since 1999, thats just chemmie urban legend. They can find nothing that supports it other than "I know it when I see it" and similar perception based statements.

[airtankerpilot]

Just why are ANY atmospheric mitigation projects considered IMPOSSIBLE, especially when they have been so widely promoted?

To date, No skeptic has answered THAT question!

WTF? Is that your proof?

No, we have not said it is impossible, just that even if attempted, it would be a massive undertaking requireing hundreds of planes, thousands upon thousands of flights.

Besides, concepts, ideas, proposals are not proof of anything other than it being an idea in someones head.

You still have not gotten the idea about you having to prove chemtrails. Its not for us to prove you wrong, even as fun as it is. People on chemtrail central have even complained recently about the burden of proof being upon them. Oh no, its that way in real life too!

To date, ZERO proof of a massive government, military and airline spraying conspiracy.

[airtankerpilot]

It's not as simple as this because - and if you have read and understood Jay Michaelson's 'Manhattan Project' paper you will perceive the new element - the geoengineering logic is not only a status quo logic but also has a subversive side to it. This is why some ecologists have been coopted into it, and the ecological milieu as a whole is silent about it. International law has not been able to keep up with practice. Michaelson judges that it would be more difficult to render geoengineering practices legal than it would be to change the fossil-fuel-based economy that makes them "necessary".

It is difficult for geoengineering to be officially recognized until such time as it can be made legal. That is what Bodansky's writings are all about. It is the sections of society with a 'social engineering' conception of legality rather than a conservative formalistic conception that are complicit with geoengineering practice. This is why it is conservatives believing in 'the rule of law' who should be duty bound, in terms of their own principles, to be truthful about what is being done.

Leftists, socialists, ecologists, those espousing the ideal of 'world government' and the politicisation of the legal system are those who can most easily justify dishonesty about the reality of geoengineering. Michaelson explains all this, and exemplifies it.

This is why Reynolds and company, in this matter, are such 'traitors' to traditional conservative ideals, in the sense of respect for constitutional legality and the rule of law.

Nice try to attempt to divert the issue into politics and away from reality that you people have no proof. You are not going to be able to con people into believing in chemtrails by bringing up politics, religion, middle east, etc.

How many times have the chemmies tried to steer the issue away their lack of proof and into entirely different areas, just in this thread alone.

[airtankerpilot]

Got Milk?

Got Proof?

[halva]

[quote]Halva, your entire message (partially quoted here) has nothing to do with the issue and suggesting Reynolds "and company" are traitors is to envoke patriotism in the absence of evidence to support your claims.

The Reynolds position amounts to the following assertion: if chemtrails were a reality, I a patriotic conservative American would be opposed to them. I am not not opposed to them. Therefore they do not exist.

[halva]

Typically what happens when Reynolds starts losing is that he sends in a squadron of deadheads to achieve through numerical swamping what he could not achieve either through force of argument or through bullying and/or psychological warfare tactics.

And it's effective. Who could be bothered replying to postings like most of the above?

[airtankerpilot]

Typically what happens when Reynolds starts losing is that he sends in a squadron of deadheads to achieve through numerical swamping what he could not achieve either through force of argument or through bullying and/or psychological warfare tactics.

How has he lost? it is the chemmies that have had to admit they have ZERO proof, that can not answer specific pointed questions, and have to try and steer the debate towards proposals, patents, politics, middle east, and environmentalism. You have an interesting measure of winning a debate.


And it's effective. Who could be bothered replying to postings like most of the above?

Because you can not deal in specifics and you know that. Nor you can prove it exists, nor can you offer evidence of your chemtrail belief. You shy away from answering questions. You can not reply to questions, without either looking stupid or showing you have no idea what the answers are.

Got proof?

[gaiacomm]

Got Milk?

Got Proof?



Yes!

[airtankerpilot]

Got Milk?

Got Proof?



Yes!

You said in a previous posting that you did not have proof, now you say you do.

You chemmies are pretty funny.

[gaiacomm]

Got Milk?

Got Proof?



Yes!

You said in a previous posting that you did not have proof, now you say you do.

You chemmies are pretty funny.




You should know that we never kiss and tell!

[gaiacomm]

Now ask yourself, what would you do with the proof?

You know it would create serious tension between many groups that would be on the front line of destruction including parts of the US Government once the truth was let out!

You do not wish to spread fear thru the american people do you?

We first need to rid ourseleves of the terrorists that keep us awake at night! And the war in Iraq and soon to be other countries in who's name?

These terrorist groups are slowing our world domination campaign down for colonization of other nations to our way!

Soliders are being murdered each day for our freedom so we can dominate and control other countries.

Chemtrails is a small part of the whole and will be dealt with soon!

Take your energy and attempt to gain your freedom back or soon you will have to abide by the democratic process mandated by whoever has the gold!

These people who poison the air do not care about you or even themselves so that makes them even more dangerous..!

But Chemtrails are not real and cannot be proven, right? Well look around you and see what is left for you!

[halva]

The only positive aspect of chemtrails, as far as I can see, is that it appears to be killing more Americans than non-Americans.

This may be a reflection of the United Nations involvement, as evident in the IPCC posting that Reynolds put up as a banana skin for Gaiacomm to slip on,

http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg3/index.htm

where the links between spraying and climate mitigation were explicit.

[gaiacomm]

The only positive aspect of chemtrails, as far as I can see, is that it appears to be killing more Americans than non-Americans.

This may be a reflection of the United Nations involvement, as evident in the IPCC posting that Reynolds put up as a banana skin for Gaiacomm to slip on,

http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg3/index.htm

where the links between spraying and climate mitigation were explicit.

In my opinion this chemtrail issue is global and is more evident with industrialized nations with a lack of environmental control. The US has some control but it depends on which governing party is in office.

Chemtrails are global because of the circulation of the atmosphere and other bio dynamics that spread infections of man!

[halva]

Steve if you want to start organizing people the first thing to do is to reply to the message I left at your own forum.

[gaiacomm]

Interesting situation we have here! When crude oil prices go up we do nothing as a people. When gas prices go up we do nothing. Apathy has set in on people like rigor on a dead body. SUV's are a sensation but what about the gas consumption? People don't care as long as they can have their big cars! We pollute the environment but yet do nothing!

Arianna's self interest to promote and sell her books and radio talk shows is again to line her pockets with gold and leave us on this forum to our own devices.

Does she even post a hello to all of us?

This thread even though it may seem a bit odd still has more pages and hits than any other here which shows that some sort of exchange is brewing on this forum and yet Arianna will boast about this forum but not even post a thank you to us all.

This thread has a popular debate even though it takes turns like a magic bullet!
And we just roll over and show our bellies to be rubbed like a good doggy!

[gaiacomm]

Halva:

Try this one for reference:


http://www.eea.eu.int/

[jayreynolds]

"Arianna's self interest to promote and sell her books and radio talk shows is again to line her pockets with gold and leave us on this forum to our own devices.

Does she even post a hello to all of us?

This thread even though it may seem a bit odd still has more pages and hits than any other here which shows that some sort of exchange is brewing on this forum and yet Arianna will boast about this forum but not even post a thank you to us all."


I see from her schedule she flys nationwide on a continuing basis for book signings, lectures, etc.(see 'Events')

At the beginning of this thread it appeared as if the chemmies really wanted her support, halva went around to al four chem-cult messageboards asking for people to join in debate.

Something tells me they don't actually want her to come see what a mess they have made of things. :oops:

After all, she can see "Judah Ben Hur- King of Judea" being praised for his sage commentary like- "GOT MILK?".

After all, she can see a Greek chemmie racist rant about how the jews(all 5000 of them) are bent on taking over Greece!

After all, as former head of the Cambridge Union debating society, she can judge debate on it's merits, and see just how poorly the chemies have done.

So, tell us, oh great halva 'Candyman' Hall, just where is Arianna Huffington on the subject of "Chemtrails"?

I'm thinking you don't really want to know anymore than you want us to know what Nikos Katsaros really says about "chemtrails", or the people at Tyndall Center. You chemmies cover up more than those you accuse.
You do far less than those who oppose you, and you spout some pretty petty rhetoric that doesn't bamboozle any but the nearly brain-dead among the public. Any wonder your hoax has as it's main goal just staying afloat, not actually producing evidence.

[jayreynolds]

I wrote this five years ago, read it and see exactly how much has proven correct. I especially like this quote:


"No matter what you do, some smartalec will come along and find the details you forgot, and try to spoil the whole thing, it never fails. Accordingly, you've got to learn the number one rule that anyone contemplating a chemtrail scare should make sure is covered:

NEVER SHOW ANY REAL EVIDENCE AT ALL, NEVER, NOT EVER, (this way, anything you create out of thin air, exaggerate, or omit can't be scrutinized)"


"An exit strategy will have to be mapped out, or else one's reputation may be irretrievably damaged. One suggestion would be to simply connect this scam to the next one. For instance, another conspiracy theory could be linked to the chemtrails, then a gradual easing out could be possible towards the new play."

Does anybody see what exit strategy is in the early stages of being implemented? Think about it.
Jay
==========================
HOW TO RUN A CONTRAIL
SCARE FOR FUN AND PROFIT

by Jay Reynolds

Before commencing on this enterprise, make sure you have the "enterprise" set up, after all, you are doing this for money, aren't you? Yes, you must have a sales network all set up in advance, ready for your marks to "buy into" as soon as you begin. There are many items you can sell, including books, videos, T-shirts, and vitamins which you can honestly say have protected you from "chemtrail fallout." After all, you know they really are just water vapor anyway.

Once the set up is all "set up", you'll have to steel yourself, because what you are about to do is mislead and deceive people, and it is difficult to do this if you aren't really a psychopathic liar.


If you're not able to speak clearly, with a straight face, while lying through your teeth, and sound just as sincere as a preacher, you had better just stop right now, because the strain on most normal people is too great.

No matter what you do, some smartalec will come along and find the details you forgot, and try to spoil the whole thing, it never fails. Accordingly, you've got to learn the number one rule that anyone contemplating a chemtrail scare should make sure is covered:

NEVER SHOW ANY REAL EVIDENCE AT ALL, NEVER, NOT EVER, (this way, anything you create out of thin air, exaggerate, or omit can't be scrutinized)

Portray all your evidence as "preliminary," as "dangerous," and as something "big,"
a "national emergency," but NEVER ACTUALLY SHOW ANY EVIDENCE!!!!!!
(remember, you don't really have to have any)

Most people will be completely satisfied with this approach, especially the people you really want on your side. You see, you don't really want people who need proof. Yes, that's right. The name "con-man" is a shortened form of "confidence-man." The "marks" you are seeking are not the ones who require real evidence. You don't want them at all. You are trying to form a cadre of "true believers" who do what they are told, believe what they are told, and repeat it as quickly as they are told, whatever they are told. You want a big crew of gullible yes-men, rumormongers, and loudmouths, because they will end up doing 99% of all your work for you, while you sit back and watch with glee.

Where to find the people you need

The people you need are people who have these attributes:

-They believe whatever they are told, and don't need proof of anything. This is paramount, because critical thinking is the one thing that can kill your ploy.

-They respond and are motivated by fear, not to discover anything, but to run around screaming,
"The sky is falling!!" in as many places as possible. Remember, you don't want people to think, you want them to remain in ignorance, and fear is one of the best paralyzers of reason, so always seek to make the whole thing as scary as possible, and instill enough fear in your followers that they'll just leave it up to you, being too fearful to look more closely.

-They have a belief that some things are unexplainable, that paranormal events and magic really do exist. These people will believe practically anything already, they come tailor made for you and your purposes.

-That are already physically ill, are predisposed to illness, or know someone who is, especially people who don't go to doctors because they don't trust them, and whose illnesses thus drag on and continue undiagnosed. These people can then be trotted out and displayed as "sufferers" whenever you need a "victim." This tactic is one of the best, because any scoffers can then be portrayed as "inhuman."

-The people who already fear any kind of technology, and do not understand scientific terminology are ripe for your exploitation, keep them dependent on you for information in pre-digested form, they will most likely just accept whatever you tell them. You're not going to tell them much anyway, especially if it might refute your play, because this will encourage them to begin seeking knowledge on their own.

What to say, where, and when

After choosing your audience carefully, format your story to best satisfy the objectives outlined above, remembering always to NEVER SHOW ANY EVIDENCE, NO NOT EVER(that way, you really don't have to have any).

Your prime weapon is fear, your prime target those most vulnerable to fear and paralyzation, thus the harder you can hype any aspect to promote fear the better. The following can be used to your advantage:

- Normal contrails are most often seen during the cooler parts of the year, especially October through springtime and thankfully for your cause, the cold and flu season coincides with this time period, so any normal illness at that time can certainly be said to be "possibly" caused by chemtrails.

- ANY other illness can be used likewise, remember YOU WILL NEVER SHOW ANY EVIDENCE ANYWAY, right? So all illness is fair game, bring in meningitis, lupus, any allergies, boils, asthma, emphysema, strep, and just about anything else. Don't forget, there are numerous hypochondriacs who will willingly discuss all sorts of complaints who just need a sympathetic audience, encourage their stories, you will be amazed at how sad they can be, and how much they will speculate, extending the fear into all sorts of unlikely places.

- Keep your possibilities open, WiiiiiiiDE open, don't just settle on illness, or you will be missing out on so many other popular ideas. Don't forget, there is always the idea that *somebody* wants to kill a lot of people, that *somebody* wants to change the weather, that *somebody* wants to do almost anything. What you must do is keep it vague enough and there will be droves of people
who will think up more outrageous ideas than you could even imagine. Remember, they will do 99% of the work for you if you just set the stage. You will be amazed, earthquakes, comets, droughts, floods, storms, even plane crashes will become part of the legend you can help create, mold, guide and develop.

- Use the media, use it, use it, abuse it. Use the most credible sources first, before they catch on, of course, the mainstream press will see right through what you are trying to do, they at least have
to make some money after the whole thing blows off. Pick at least one media outlet that has some credibility as an opener, the best you can find. Of course, eventually, they will catch on, so then you just go down the line, and don't forget the late night shows like Art Bell, he will promote anything and has millions of gullible insomniacs ready for their latest adrenaline fix. Actually, these hosts know that people are most vulnerable when they are in a semi-somnolent state, and are sometimes almost taken to the point of being hypnotized.

- The Internet is your prime stomping ground, and can distribute the most outrageous stuff imaginable, so just imagine it! What you will definitely need are lots of websites that can post pictures. Visual stimuli are necessary to promote Mass Sociogenic Illness, and it is imperative that these images get implanted in the most sinister way possible. It doesn't matter if they are normal contrails or not, it doesn't matter if planes are visible or not, each and every contrail picture is a possible chemtrail, in fact, you really shouldn't talk about what normal contrails are if you can avoid it at all costs, just call them all chemtrails and soon everybody else will too. Almost all contrails will eventually be considered chemtrails after a time. These websites are your greatest tools, and the nice thing is that you can get other people to run them and set them up for you, they will be begging to do it, or just do it anyway.

- While we're on the subject of websites, you can help promote fear by suggesting that people write their congressman, government agencies, and the military. These people and agencies will then visit the sites, and their visits can be construed as "inordinate interest" and be hyped as real evidence that "something big" is going on. These public servants do realize they shouldn't insult the people they work for, and will do everything they can short of telling the correspondents they are nuts, or being lied to, they know darn well nobody wants to hear that. Some of them will see these contacts as so silly they may not respond, and that is your cue to state that "something big" must really be going on, because they are "afraid to respond" or "they are stonewalling."

- There might come a time when one does respond and categorically deny all existence of chemtrails. Search carefully for anything said that supports your idea, but NEVER discuss anything at all that refutes anything you say. Remember, NEVER DISCUSS THE EVIDENCE THAT REFUTES YOUR STORY, you must be the filter, and you must keep people dependent on you for "information."

Here come the critics

If you're lucky, critics, skeptics, and debunkers will just dismiss what you say and go on, but you may not be so lucky, and they will have to be dealt with eventually. These people, if dealt with directly, can be the real pox, so just ignore them if at all possible. If fact, you must remember that YOU are in control, you just don't have anything to say to these people at all. Arguing with them will get you nowhere, and since there is no evidence to show, there is no evidence to discuss.

Remember rule numero uno: (THERE IS NO EVIDENCE, SO YOU NEVER WILL HAVE TO SHOW ANY)

Now, sooner or later, someone will ask for proof anyway, so here are some tips on how to handle the eventuality:

-Acting very sincere, state that you "really aren't sure what is going on," but say that you have been getting hundreds, or thousands of reports from "people all over the country," who say they are seeing all kinds of chemtrails. This pits the critics not against you, but against unknown and unknowable hordes of people, and puts you as just the reporter of these "facts." Remember, these people can't be expected to reveal their identity, and you have hyped the fear level so high, they probably never will, so none of it can ever really be checked out anyway.

-Portray any references, even incorrect or tangential ones as "facts," everything else you can as "evidence," all speculation as "hypothesis," and all rumors as "possibilities," after all, anything is possible, right?

-Do your utmost best to remain aloof from the critics, whenever possible, do not engage them in debate or respond at all. Since they are right, to respond is death. They can be your worst nightmare.

-Since skeptics will show up wherever you are, unfortunately you will not be able to participate in open forums and can only use media sources that are "friendlies", as mentioned above.

The Bottom Line

Eventually, either too many people will catch on(time has a way of eliciting the truth), or sales may decline to the point where this play becomes a waste of time.
An exit strategy will have to be mapped out, or else one's reputation may be irretrievably damaged. One suggestion would be to simply connect this scam to the next one. For instance, another conspiracy theory could be linked to the chemtrails, then a gradual easing out could be possible towards the new play. Fortunately, your followers, at least the "true believers", will probably not even notice that contrails continue to be produced as before.

Good luck.
You'll need it.

[gaiacomm]

"Arianna's self interest to promote and sell her books and radio talk shows is again to line her pockets with gold and leave us on this forum to our own devices.

Does she even post a hello to all of us?

This thread even though it may seem a bit odd still has more pages and hits than any other here which shows that some sort of exchange is brewing on this forum and yet Arianna will boast about this forum but not even post a thank you to us all."


I see from her schedule she flys nationwide on a continuing basis for book signings, lectures, etc.(see 'Events')



At the beginning of this thread it appeared as if the chemmies really wanted her support, halva went around to al four chem-cult messageboards asking for people to join in debate.

Something tells me they don't actually want her to come see what a mess they have made of things. :oops:

After all, she can see "Judah Ben Hur- King of Judea" being praised for his sage commentary like- "GOT MILK?".

After all, she can see a Greek chemmie racist rant about how the jews(all 5000 of them) are bent on taking over Greece!

After all, as former head of the Cambridge Union debating society, she can judge debate on it's merits, and see just how poorly the chemies have done.

So, tell us, oh great halva 'Candyman' Hall, just where is Arianna Huffington on the subject of "Chemtrails"?

I'm thinking you don't really want to know anymore than you want us to know what Nikos Katsaros really says about "chemtrails", or the people at Tyndall Center. You chemmies cover up more than those you accuse.
You do far less than those who oppose you, and you spout some pretty petty rhetoric that doesn't bamboozle any but the nearly brain-dead among the public. Any wonder your hoax has as it's main goal just staying afloat, not actually producing evidence.


KING OF JUDEA

I thought it only fair to explain why I now sign my name with King of Judea.
Out of 2,000 emails and rising, many Jewish and non-Jewish people have nicknamed me this because of their firm belief that I and others like me can truly free the people and create peace. They wish an end to the madness in Palestine and the meddling in affairs by the USA. They want Israel to listen or be destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah!
With your support and prayers, these things can happen. I am willing to die for freedom knowing that at least I tried!
I am no prophet, no messiah, no statesmen; I am just a man who wants freedom for his family and for the world!

Judah Ben-Hur
King of Judea

[gaiacomm]

Jay you forgot this also:

We are glad you do not pick history!



JIHAD BEGINS AND WHERE DO YOU STAND?

When an idea begins to take form it acts like a snowball rolling down a mountain in the first week of winter. It takes on laws of physics on its journey to its beginning, then when the science is right it bursts into a supernova spreading its light and heat for billions to see!
Islam is just as great a nation as all others are.

In this war on terrorism its seems that the United States of America and its showroom dummy allies are in control, at least it seems that way.
With technological machinery and intelligence gathering methods like snitches who would sell there own mother for a piece of silver or 15 minutes of fame it would seem that some of the terror makers would be captured like bin Laden and the like by now.

Well now, maybe we should put together our 52-card deck on war criminals, dishonest Policy makers and corporate executives who hide behind their OZ in this geo-political arena of cat and mouse, hide and seek, red light, green light, Marco polo and mother may I.

Now lets see, the Jewish people (Hebrew) are siding with the USA, and they have nuclear weapons, and Islam does not, at least at the level it should be.
Saudi Arabia does not care too much for the USA either, so it is quite easy for them to possibly play both sides of the fence.
President Bush has now changed the name of Iraq to BUSLAND in the Middle East to control the oil and smile at the ARABS. The Koreans need in infusion of revenue for their starving economy and are willing to use a nuclear weapon to make a point,
Pakistan is ready to destroy India and anyone else that gets in their way, the Turks accept international bribes, China is not so clean with SARS, Africa learned its politics and evil from the USA, Spain is too weak, England would love to rule the USA again and gain its kingly luster, South America and Mexico are in debt and are still in shock over Columbus and Cortez, the rest of the Arab world is upset over the loss of honor and oil, Europe has been cast back into the dark ages and the United States is the blame for the rest!

History is now taking on a new passenger.

Sometimes it’s the smallest of creatures that can make a difference!

You are either for the change or against the change; unfortunately, you have no other choice.

Taken from a famous quote: “ I tell you the day Rome falls there will be a shout of Freedom such as the world has never heard before!”

Judah Ben-Hur

[gaiacomm]

Arrianna is no different than anyone else. What seperates her from you Jay and others like you is ego, money, and no real respect for others less fortunate. Governer...she did not have enough money and its a man's messed up world!

Arianna will not respond to you Jay or others on this board. Jay next time give all the facts not your tamper documents.

And what you are posting on Judah Ben-Hur is old news but it still is news.

At least Judah is not afraid to speak out! I have found all kinds of data on him without any problems.

Judah does not hide...but you do, Jay!

Arianna hides with you all as well!

[Sore Throat]

So where is the credibility?

Consider Jay Reynolds. He is absolutely obsessed with his single handed holy crusade against those concerned with atmospheric modification by what are known as Chemtrails.

Think about it...five years of devoted effort to fight against something you don't believe is real.

Where's the payoff?

Do you know ANYONE else that daily spends time fighting against something that they think IS NOT REAL ?

Why not save people from their delusions about aliens and abductions (which polls would lead us to believe there is a substantial group within the country that believe that this is happening).

How much time have you ever spent in you life fighting against something that you absolutely knew WASN'T REAL?

Nope...it's never made sense to me...of course other than the term PAYOFF.

Consider who benefits by such debunking...follow the money.

And by the way, this is that same Jay Reynolds who is equally proud of his assertion that "Global Warming Is a Hoax".

Every day it becomes more and more obvious his position on this matter is "fringe science", supported primarily by vested interests in oil and energy companies.

The Minnis article well documents the baseline frequency of persistent contrails before 1999. Unless there has been a dramatic change in the high altitude atmosphere, there is no reason that there should be a higher frequency of persistent trails EVEN WITH INCREASED AIR TRAFFIC !





Just a "normal" contrail?

Sure, we see these "all the time"... NOT!

"Oh, well you see, it's a difference in the air, one side of the plane to another."

Sure.

By the way the last two weeks of WINTER brought record breaking highs (70s, 80s, 90s !!!) to the San Francisco Bay Area.

Nothing unusual about that is there?....

Oh yeah, that was RECORD BREAKING wasn't it.

And here's one other interesting factoid:

Throughout this period of DOMINANT HIGH PRESSURE and LOW HUMIDITY there has been a constant abundance of persistent "contrails".

Interesting.

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

It is now time to openly challenge Arianna to a debate on this Chemtrail issue. I challenge her to an open debate anywhere anytime!

I bet she will not even respond because she does not care and we do not fit her agenda!

She is a showroom dummy just like all the rest!

This Intereact forum was another one of her ego campaigns to further her goal of being popular.

Arianna come down from your high horse and play with us!

[jayreynolds]

I have an announcement to make. I am now willing to discuss why I have been forced to debunk "chemtrails", and what "payoff" I have received for doing so.

However, as I give, I also hope to receive, and so am willing to make my own personal revelations if and only after certain information heretofore undiclosed is exchanged.

'Sore', answer the following questions. When they are answered by you, categorically, honestly, and completely, I will reveal publicly to everyone on this board exactly what "payoff" I receive for debunking the "chemtrails" hoax.

Surely this is a fair and equitable trade you would be willing to make for such essential information?

I will be awaiting your answers, and urge your fellow chemmies to encourage your participation.
Jay
==================
Questions to be answered by 'Sore', categorically, honestly, and completely.

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?
6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?
9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. What is your claim about the purpose of "chemtrails, what are they for?
11. What is your real name?
12. What was the extent of your participation in the composition of
"Chemtrails Over America", and do you still stand behind the conclusions laid out in the document?

[Sore Throat]

http://www.rense.com/general50/wliar.htm


The Weather Liars

By Diane Harvey
merak@sedona.net
3-20-4


It has been an astonishing transformation, of the utmost significance. But we never, ever, hear or read about it in the news. Over the last few years, the skies over the American southwest have changed beyond recognition. The famous dazzling blue sky of yesteryear has become, as often as not, sickly pale ugly sludge. This is as shocking a difference as if the surrounding landscape had slowly turned black, while the human inhabitants remained bizarrely oblivious.

There are still clear days, but these are numerically becoming the exception. And this has happened nearly without public comment, in a part of the world where sunny bright blue skies most of the year have been the rule for centuries. But the slow sure rip in the elemental fabric of our lives has not gone entirely unsung. Our so-called weather reports have been carefully rewritten, as ever more strained variations on the theme of Partly Cloudy. Day after day, we are treated to absurd contortions along the lines of partly cloudy, mostly cloudy, mostly sunny, partly sunny, and probably-mostly-partly-sort-of-sunny-and-cloudy. And how is it that the meteorologists can confidently predict this same once highly unlikely forecast for weeks ahead of time? The answer is obvious: because these particular partly cloudy clouds are not clouds at all.

As I write this, normal air traffic is coming and going as always, leaving no distinguishing characteristics in its wake, as usual. But in addition, closely laid out bands of fake contrails are slithering inexorably up from the south. Easily seen with good binoculars, several large unmarked planes methodically plow back and forth, depositing greasy white streams of toxic chemicals across the face of the morning. Giant X,s appear here and there, oozing fatly outward in slow motion. Before my eyes, each of these trails swells and expands, until they begin to merge in the sky-wide stew of chemtrail brew. Another fresh beautiful day has been successfully murdered: suffocated under the clandestine chemical shroud.

The forecast calls for mostly sunny skies, but no information is forthcoming as to the factual nature of the secret swill that makes it nearly always only mostly sunny. And as usual lately, the weather forecast is already miraculously perfectly predicted for the next couple of weeks. We are forewarned and know exactly what to expect in the days to come. Here is the typical grimly ironic twaddle promising extensive spraying ahead: "mostly sunny, mostly clear, mostly sunny, mostly clear, mostly sunny, mostly clear, mostly sunny, partly cloudy, partly cloudy, partly cloudy, mostly sunny, partly cloudy and- wait for it- partly cloudy. Such is the ever-repeating litany of sky-lies masquerading as the local weather report.

Meteorologists and weather forecasters have always enjoyed the absolute confidence of the public. We would never have imagined that such respected authorities would offer preposterous fabrications to the public on a daily basis. Who could ever have thought that those we innocently entrust with accurately reporting our weather would become hardened liars as a matter of routine? Such a betrayal of our belief was practically inconceivable. Of course, many people had a hard time believing that a large number of priests were routinely abusing children and lying about it too. Many people have trouble with imagining all sorts of horrendous activities that turn out to be going on all around us all the time. Our credulity, intellectual inertia and blind faith in authorities have allowed the rise of a culture of professionally networked liars on all fronts. The profound failings of an intrinsically unethical civilization have generated innumerable painful awakenings, and we,re not done yet.

Meteorologists consider themselves members in good standing of the secular priesthood of science. Their obedient mouth organs, the media,s weather forecasters, also do not seem to lack self-esteem. Yet none of these self-regarding professionals see any problem in refusing to mention the most visible anomalous activity in our skies. If the seas turned bright red, we might suppose that oceanographers would notice, and immediately report the astounding fact to the public. But no professionally trained eye ever mentions the alarming and frequent spectacle of aerosol operations going on in our atmosphere. Are the so-called priests of science so terrified of truth that they manage to subconsciously blind themselves to the blatantly obvious?

Such a widespread perceptual failure on the part of the paid, impossible at it seems, has at least to be briefly considered. Because a fascinating study some years ago from the University of Southern California concluded that most individuals would indeed refuse to so much as entertain a fact, no matter how self-evidently true that fact was, if believing it would directly affect their income. And from rude experience we may extrapolate to include among the deniers of reality: all those whose self-image and belief system is fanatically welded to the prevailing social fabric of cheap tricks, fake standards, and prevailing prevarications.

The only other possibility for the increasing predilection for fantasy forecasting is that the so-called professionals know perfectly well what is happening in our atmosphere, and are deliberately peddling stupendous lies. There are only two equally deplorable possibilities here. However unlikely it seems, perhaps the paid professionals and amateur weather aficionados are actually a group mysteriously composed only of those people unaccountably devoid of normal perceptual faculties. Maybe they really do manage to believe their own blithering blathercasts, although this seems preposterous on the face of it, even for them. The other, far more rational assumption is that they all know exactly what they are doing and tell these terrible untruths consciously and by design. Either way, the ritual abuse of public trust in honest weather reporting is now absolute.

Compulsive weather liars only have a couple of ways to try to maintain their specious nonsense. The favored ploy is to categorically refuse to address the issue of shockingly obvious atmospheric operations at all. The very people who pride themselves on being scientists, pledged to examine evidence impartially on behalf of the human race- will never, under any circumstances whatsoever, go anywhere near the tell-tale evidence. Neither will any other of the weather professionals in our society. This should not surprise us unduly however, since upholding a lie as big as all outdoors must be quite a draining occupation. Maintaining industrial-strength levels of hypocrisy throughout the length and breadth of once-respectable professions might very well be causing serious wear and tear. Many of the less aggressive types would naturally prefer not talk about it at all, under the humiliating circumstances.

Although liars come in many colors, a basic yellow streak always shows through. The average garden-variety weather reporter or meteorologist uses the affable brick wall technique, applying a cement-like paste of stultifying faux-scientific stupidity to all rational inquiry. Many other weather liars avoid dealing with actively concerned members of the breathing public by sneering automatically and maniacally at any incoming questions. The vicious sort of weather liar believes that the force of sheer personality ugliness ought to impress concerned citizens in lieu of reasoning. But this type, given to hysterical and disfiguring antics in order to avoid discussing anything even resembling reality, needn,t expect to generate real confusion. Informed people simply observe the moral self-mutilation of weather authorities with pity and amazement. Some of the more determined citizens even wait patiently for the froth of sputtering spittle to dry, and then once again politely offer to discuss the facts of atmospheric life. But dancing with frightened, well-schooled and determined liars is a sophisticated sport, not for everyone, and most of us will never wish for practice to make us perfect. Those who sweat it out slinging lies for a living know this about us, and therefore will never stop lying. Lying is by far the easiest way out of dealing with uncomfortable facts for those whose conscience is as yet but a feeble thing, easily disposed of. The unprincipled therefore readily become practiced liars, as a substitute for the more arduous path of becoming practicing humans.

We live in a culture where power precariously supports itself by relying on a tissue of denial and lies, so closely interwoven that the intellectually lazy never even see it. Just as most people still don,t even notice that the sky above has gone from a heavenly blue to a hell of anemic whitish-gray. One has to wonder what magnitude of extreme alteration in the natural environment the average consumer will require, in order to perceive any change in the surroundings at all. And within the network of hypocrisy, those who do honestly admit to themselves what is going on carefully examine on which side their bread is buttered- before bravely declining all comment. When it comes to so-called authorities, the relationship between abject cowardice, absence of all ethics, and perpetual lying is a very straight line connecting three shabby dots.

In any healthy and wholesome society, the habitual liar is rightly looked on as an embarrassment to humanity. While constant lying has never been criminalized per se, since being pathetic is its own punishment, lies that adversely affect other people,s lives are another story. History books are replete with gruesome examples of groups of social liars, their inevitable exposure, and the scathing commentary of subsequent generations. It is true that history excels in revealing past injustice in great and satisfying detail. Yet eventual unmasking of the forgers of sky lies is cold comfort for those whose well being is adversely affected in the present. Neither can the appearance of revealing truth at a later time do any good whatsoever to parents helplessly watching their children suffer in the here and now.

The great glaring fact about the weather is that our atmosphere is being chemically reconditioned right before our eyes, in broad daylight, and each and every one of our weather forecasters is resolutely lying about it. Of course, despite wholesale obfuscation, we are still perfectly free to look outside and investigate what is going on over our heads for ourselves. So should we really mind then that weather reports have become purpose-built acts of science fiction? Why should we care that professional weather forecasters have defaulted on their public duty? We can see the reality for ourselves, in this case as in so many others. In this business of lying whenever their lips are moving, the weather mongers have merely caught up to politicians, military spokespersons, major media sewer outlets, and other full-time enthusiastic cheerleaders for infinite secrecy, world-class lies, and the demise of our Republic.

The truth is that we should all care very much about the truth. It is a primary responsibility to care about being lied to, by any kind of authority, no matter who is doing it or why. We should mind a great deal whenever anyone with any degree of responsibility for the welfare of the public, and the welfare of our Republic, consistently, remorselessly and interminably lies to us. We should certainly never blandly accept the ongoing dark comedy act called a weather report these days, as if it is simply another new form of misapplied creativity. It is not. Lying about what is happening to and in our atmosphere is an unprecedented assault on the entire body politic, and a violent violation of the public trust that must not go unchallenged.

Throughout human history, calling anyone a liar has always been a serious indictment. Civilized human beings have never employed this brutal epithet causally. Lying is, and has always been considered, such a vile act that the average person was careful not to accuse anyone of it without just cause. Logically, there must be many people in different groups and professions involved in trying to confuse the populace about what is really happening to our atmosphere. Ongoing propaganda has been carefully constructed for maximum impact on several fronts. Moreover, disguising the abysmal fact of continuing toxic aerosol operations in our skies is only one of many grotesque deceptions underway. But let us never forget the uniquely disgraceful role meteorologists and weather reporters play in all this, as the middlemen and midwives of deliberate fundamental confusion. Our ridiculous weather cartoons are delivered to us in cold blood, precisely in order to mislead as many of us as possible. And lying to the public about something as crucial to our existence as what we are all breathing constitutes a pathological misuse of power. These wretched examples of authority have willingly traded all vestiges of honor for the sake of regular paychecks. They live for now by means of lying through their teeth to the very people who have trusted them absolutely. But then perhaps they have not yet understood that the sure and certain result of their betrayal will be their undying shame.

[Sore Throat]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=624&ncid=753&e=1&u=/ap/20040320/ap_on_sc/climate_record_co2

CO2 Hits Record Levels, Researchers Find

By CHARLES J. HANLEY, AP Special Correspondent

MAUNA LOA OBSERVATORY, Hawaii - Carbon dioxide, the gas largely blamed for global warming, has reached record-high levels in the atmosphere after growing at an accelerated pace in the past year, say scientists monitoring the sky from this 2-mile-high station atop a Hawaiian volcano.


The reason for the faster buildup of the most important "greenhouse gas" will require further analysis, the U.S. government experts say.


"But the big picture is that CO2 is continuing to go up," said Russell Schnell, deputy director of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's climate monitoring laboratory in Boulder, Colo., which operates the Mauna Loa Observatory on the island of Hawaii.


Carbon dioxide, mostly from burning of coal, gasoline and other fossil fuels, traps heat that otherwise would radiate into space. Global temperatures increased by about 1 degree Fahrenheit (0.6 degrees Celsius) during the 20th century, and international panels of scientists sponsored by world governments have concluded that most of the warming probably was due to greenhouse gases.


The climatologists forecast continued temperature rises that will disrupt the climate, cause seas to rise and lead to other unpredictable consequences — unpredictable in part because of uncertainties in computer modeling of future climate.


Before the industrial age and extensive use of fossil fuels, the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere stood at about 280 parts per million, scientists have determined.


Average readings at the 11,141-foot Mauna Loa Observatory, where carbon dioxide density peaks each northern winter, hovered around 379 parts per million on Friday, compared with about 376 a year ago.


That year-to-year increase of about 3 parts per million is considerably higher than the average annual increase of 1.8 parts per million over the past decade, and markedly more accelerated than the 1-part-per-million annual increase recorded a half-century ago, when observations were first made here.


Asked to explain the stepped-up rate, climatologists were cautious, saying data needed to be further evaluated. But Asia immediately sprang to mind.


"China is taking off economically and burning a lot of fuel. India, too," said Pieter Tans, a prominent carbon-cycle expert at NOAA's Boulder lab.


Another leading climatologist, Ralph Keeling, whose father, Charles D. Keeling, developed methods for measuring carbon dioxide, noted that the rate "does fluctuate up and down a bit," and said it was too early to reach conclusions. But he added: "People are worried about `feedbacks.' We are moving into a warmer world."


He explained that warming itself releases carbon dioxide from the ocean and soil. By raising the gas's level in the atmosphere, that in turn could increase warming, in a "positive feedback," said Keeling, of San Diego's Scripps Institution of Oceanography.


The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change projects that, if unchecked, atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations by 2100 will range from 650 to 970 parts per million. As a result, the panel estimates, average global temperature would probably rise by 1.4 to 5.8 degrees Celsius (2.7 and 10.4 degrees Fahrenheit) between 1990 and 2100.


The 1997 Kyoto Protocol (news - web sites) would oblige ratifying countries to reduce carbon dioxide emissions according to set schedules, to minimize potential global warming. The pact has not taken effect, however.


The United States, the world's biggest carbon dioxide emitter, signed the agreement but did not ratify it, and the Bush administration has since withdrawn U.S. support, calling instead for voluntary emission reductions by U.S. industry and more scientific research into climate change.


___

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Will someone else answer Jay's questions! I already did but he does not wish the answers to come from a Physcist.

In the meantime Arianna I challenge you to a debate on Environment issues!

Come on Arianna are you just hot air? I listen to you, read you and I think you seem to have a handle on it!

Would you like to have your picture taken next to me to ad to your collection?

Being a Governer takes alot more than what you seem to have!

So stick to the talk shows and book signings!

Thanks for the forum it sure makes you look good, does it not?

Champion debator? That was when you were young and full of energy and had faith in your convictions....now what do have Arianna?

[Sore Throat]

For years we have heard debunkers contend that the persistent sky trails emitted by aircraft were nothing more than "harmless" ice crystals...just "normal" aircraft exhaust.

Let's suspend for the moment the question of whether there has been a deliberate intention to chemically modify such emissions to intentionally increase persistence.

Instead, let's consider just how "harmless" such atmospheric modification actually is. Is it really as "harmless" debunkers claim?


How do aircraft affect Climate and Ozone?

http://www.gaiabooks.co.uk/environment/aircraft.html


Effects of aircraft on the atmosphere

http://www.al.noaa.gov/WWWHD/pubdocs/Aircraft2.html


More Than Noise: Environmental Effects of Aircraft

http://www.coastalpost.com/00/7/04.htm


Jetting Toward Climate Change

http://www.climateark.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=29940



Aviation Policy 'Will Have Huge Global Warming Impact'

"Government aviation policy will have a “massive” impact on global warming over the next 30 years"

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2652045


Briefly Empty Skies Offer Climate Clues

http://cartome.org/9-11climatology.htm


Crowded skies impact air quality

http://www.msnbc.com/news/595039.asp?cp1=1


LARGE NITRIC ACID PARTICLES ABOVE ARCTIC STRATOSPHERIC CLOUDS

http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EAE03/13396/EAE03-J-13396.pdf

************************************************** **********

Given this ever growing, documented scientific research on the impacts of aviation on global climate change, just how honest is the debunkers' position when they speak of "harmless ice crystals"?

As I said at the beginning of this post, the jury is still out on the question of whether there are intentional chemical modifications underway to actually increase the persistence of aircraft emissions.

Nevertheless, this body of hard evidence speaks to the veracity of the debunkers that address this issue.

You will not once see them admit that "their normal aircraft contrails" are part of a growing global problem.

Why is that ?

Are they in denial of this issue as well?

Or would making such an admission jeopardize their paychecks?

[jayreynolds]

'Sore' wrote:
http://www.rense.com/general50/wliar.htm
The Weather Liars
By Diane Harvey
merak@sedona.net
"The great glaring fact about the weather is that our atmosphere is being chemically reconditioned right before our eyes, in broad daylight, and each and every one of our weather forecasters is resolutely lying about it.

"The American Meteorological Society, founded in 1919, is the preeminent scientific and professional organization for scientists and practitioners in the atmospheric sciences and related oceanic and hydrologic sciences. With a membership of more than 11,000 professionals, students, and weather enthusiasts, the AMS publishes nine atmospheric and related oceanic and hydrologic journals, sponsors more than 12 conferences annually, and offers numerous programs and services."
http://www.ametsoc.org/memb/benefitsof_membership.html



So, 'Sore', do you mean you personally are saying that all those meteorologists are in on a conspiracy? :oops:

No, of course you don't.

That's why you have loons like Diane Harvey say what you would like to say, but need 'plausible deniability' for. :shock:


As I have twice before, here is another challenge to you, personally,
to present your research before the set of meteorologists who are specifically interested in the same protion of atmosphere you say you are.

I predict that, as before, 'Sore' will make no attempt to present at the American Meteorology Society's 11th Conference on Aviation, Range, and Aerospace Meteorology. :lol:

http://www.ametsoc.org/meet/fainst/hyannis_2004.html

[jayreynolds]

No need to post irrelevant conspiracy theories, 'Sore'. Just answer the questions and you'll get what you you want.
============================

I have an announcement to make. I am now willing to discuss why I have been forced to debunk "chemtrails", and what "payoff" I have received for doing so.

However, as I give, I also hope to receive, and so am willing to make my own personal revelations if and only after certain information heretofore undiclosed is exchanged.

'Sore', answer the following questions. When they are answered by you, categorically, honestly, and completely, I will reveal publicly to everyone on this board exactly what "payoff" I receive for debunking the "chemtrails" hoax.

Surely this is a fair and equitable trade you would be willing to make for such essential information?

I will be awaiting your answers, and urge your fellow chemmies to encourage your participation.
Jay
==================
Questions to be answered by 'Sore', categorically, honestly, and completely.

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. What is your claim about the purpose of "chemtrails, what are they for?

11. What is your real name?

12. What was the extent of your participation in the composition of
"Chemtrails Over America", and do you still stand behind the conclusions laid out in the document?_________________

[foot_soldier]

You will not once see (the debunkers) admit that their "normal aircraft contrails" are part of a growing global problem.

Why is that ?

Are they in denial of this issue as well?

Good question. I think it deserves to be addressed.

So, what about it, "jayreynolds" and company? Since you all repeatedly imply that only you are "qualified" by intellect and training to make conclusive determinations regarding the condition of our skies, I would assume that you must know at least a little something about the increasingly well-documented damage being wreaked upon our atmosphere by what is and has been an essentially uncontrolled growth trajectory in commercial air traffic and its resulting emissions in the form of persistent contrails and contrail-induced aviation cirrus.

Why do you always stop short of at least acknowledging that your "normal contrails" are in fact catalyzing considerable alterations in atmospheric chemistry and in fact beginning to alter regional climate patterns?

This is not exactly new information.

And the situation is not going to go away any time soon.


Sore Throat, thanks for the references.

[jayreynolds]

"Why do you always stop short of at least acknowledging that your "normal contrails" are in fact catalyzing considerable alterations in atmospheric chemistry and in fact beginning to alter regional climate patterns?"

I wouldn't say "considerable" alterations in atmospheric chemistry.
I don't think ordinary contrails have a large effect on atmospheric chemistry at all. If you, or anyone else, has evidence quantifying such a thing, I'd be happy to read it.

As far as "beginning to alter regional climate patterns", I understand that the study done shows an increase in diurnal temperature range during the three days subsequent to 9/11. The authors attributed a portion of the change in DTR to lack of persistent contrails. Interesting study likely to be unrepeatable, and statistically small. Though the authors seem to have done their best to screen out any confounding variables, three days do not a climate make.


Interesting to note the conference I mentioned above included a presentation by Dr. David Travis of his 9/11 research. I doubt if any chemmie came, they were all too interested in useless postings at message boards.

Next.....

[Yaak]

You will not once see (the debunkers) admit that their "normal aircraft contrails" are part of a growing global problem.

Why is that ?

Are they in denial of this issue as well?


I am classified as a debunker, because I do not believe that persistent contrails and aviation clouds are created intentionally, and because I post at certain message boards.

I believe that '"normal aircraft contrails" are part of a growing global problem.' I suspect that they are indicative of pollution and added water in our upper atmosphere. The nuclei of the ice crystals are poisonous and carcinogenous.

[airtankerpilot]

The only positive aspect of chemtrails, as far as I can see, is that it appears to be killing more Americans than non-Americans.



This is pretty sick. What is worse, your belief that there are deaths occuring from this chemtrail hoax, or assertion of a positive aspect of Americans dying?

[airtankerpilot]

See, there you chemmies go again. You attempt to change the subject from chemtrails to effects from contrails and pollution from normal aviation activities.

If you want to debate that, fair enough but that has nothing to do with "chemtrails"

As you know, chemtrails is either :

Low level contrails (never seen),
Persistent trails (documented occurance since WW2),
Any trail that frightens a chemmie

From :
Military,
Airline, or
Whatever aircraft is frightening a chemmie at that point.
"Orbs"

Deliberately and intentionally releasing any or all of the following :

Barium
Aluminum
Red Blood Cells
Viruses such as SARS, Cold, etc.
Fibers
Brucellosis
Ethylene Dibromide
Metallic "spores"

Flown by either :
Military
Civilian
Reptilian alien shape shifters

For either :
Population Control
Weather Modification
Illuminati plans of conquest
UN secret program
Space Alien invasion

See, you too can put together your own chemtrail kook belief. And when questioned about it you can do any of the following :

Accuse person of not caring for environment
Accuse person of being government agent
Shift debate onto effects of normal aircraft contrails
Or just refuse to answer any specific questions

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Will someone else answer Jay's questions! I already did but he does not wish the answers to come from a Physcist.

In the meantime Arianna I challenge you to a debate on Environment issues!

Come on Arianna are you just hot air? I listen to you, read you and I think you seem to have a handle on it!

Would you like to have your picture taken next to me to ad to your collection?

Being a Governer takes alot more than what you seem to have!

So stick to the talk shows and book signings!

Thanks for the forum it sure makes you look good, does it not?

Champion debator? That was when you were young and full of energy and had faith in your convictions....now what do have Arianna?

[jayreynolds]

I too find halva's comment to be offensive. Just for comparison's sake, let's try this slight modification of his comment, replacing the word American with Jew:

The only positive aspect of chemtrails, as far as I can see, is that it appears to be killing more Jews than non-Jews.

Sounds just like Demosthenis Liakopoulos of Thessaloniki!

Hey, halva, your comment insults perhaps 99% your fellow chemmies.
You're in enough trouble already for starting this Ariannaonline fiasco that has turned into a public relations disaster for the chemtrail-cult. Not much on blowback recognition or damage control are you, Wayne?

[Bonehead9]

You will not once see (the debunkers) admit that their "normal aircraft contrails" are part of a growing global problem.

Why is that ?

Are they in denial of this issue as well?

Good question. I think it deserves to be addressed.

So, what about it, "jayreynolds" and company? Since you all repeatedly imply that only you are "qualified" by intellect and training to make conclusive determinations regarding the condition of our skies, I would assume that you must know at least a little something about the increasingly well-documented damage being wreaked upon our atmosphere by what is and has been an essentially uncontrolled growth trajectory in commercial air traffic and its resulting emissions in the form of persistent contrails and contrail-induced aviation cirrus.

Why do you always stop short of at least acknowledging that your "normal contrails" are in fact catalyzing considerable alterations in atmospheric chemistry and in fact beginning to alter regional climate patterns?

This is not exactly new information.

And the situation is not going to go away any time soon.


Sore Throat, thanks for the references.




The issue of the impact of air traffic contrails is totally different from the concept of Chemtrails.


I totally reject the idea of chemtrails, but I would gladdly disscuss the issue of contrails.

The problem is, people like sorethroat, and Halva (Gaiacon is just an attention seeking nutjob) are so wrapped up in thier anti-American, anti-capitalism, anti-technology hatred, that the topic always disolves into a political/idological debate.

This thread is a perfect example.

Jay has challenged Halva and Sore to defend thier theory, instead they have tried every trick in the book to avoid the discusion.

[Sore Throat]

Jay Reynolds states:


I wouldn't say "considerable" alterations in atmospheric chemistry.
I don't think ordinary contrails have a large effect on atmospheric chemistry at all.

Wrong again Reynolds!

Who says? ...not just me, but your buddy Dr. Patrick Minnis at NASA:

You asked for documented evidence, well here's some more (you obviously didn't read the links already provided that you so summarily dismissed...or more likely, ignored.)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/06/990624080829.htm

Jet Contrails To Be Significant Climate Factor By 2050

WASHINGTON -- By the year 2050, increased flights by jet airplanes will impact global climate through the greater number of contrails they will produce, according to a new study in the July 1 issue of the journal, Geophysical Research Letters. Contrails are ice clouds created by jet engines and are short lived in dry air, but can persist for hours in moist air and become indistinguishable from natural cirrus clouds.

A research team of American and German scientists, headed by Patrick Minnis of the NASA Langley Research Center in Hampton, Virginia, reports that contrails cause a warming of the Earth's atmosphere, although their impact is currently small as compared to other greenhouse effects. They predict, however, that it may grow by a factor of six over the next 50 years. In 1992, for example, contrails added an estimated 0.02 watts of warming per square meter globally, about one percent of all manmade greenhouse effects.

Air traffic and, therefore, contrails, are not evenly distributed around the globe.They are concentrated over parts of the United States and Europe, where local warming reaches up to 0.7 watts per square meter, or 35 times the global average. The resulting temperature increase is not computed in this study, but is estimated to reach between 0.01 and 0.1 degrees Celsius (0.02 and 0.2 degrees Fahrenheit) over the northern temperate zones for current air traffic. In the future, increased air traffic will raise these values.

Large, linear contrails can be observed in satellite imagery. Although their total global coverage has not yet been determined, it is computed from traffic and weather data to amount to 0.1 percent. In the parts of Europe and eastern North America with the heaviest air traffic, however, contrails currently cover up to 3.8 percent and 5.5 percent of the sky, respectively.

Minnis and his colleagues report that global air traffic rose by over seven percent per year from 1994 to 1997, in terms of passenger miles flown. Growth is likely to continue, meaning contrails will play a larger role in future climates than they do today. Taking into account such factors as number of flights per day, fuel consumption, and altitudes flown, they conclude that by 2050, average contrail coverage over Europe will be four times higher than at present, or about 4.6 percent. In the United States, the increase will be 2.6 times current levels, or 3.7 percent coverage; and in Asia, the increase will be ten times current levels, or 1.2 percent.

The researchers emphasize that these are conservative estimates, which take into account only the thicker contrails that can be readily observed. Thinner contrails and contrails that have developed into natural-looking cirrus clouds also affect climate, but their impact cannot yet be predicted. Other factors that would play a role include natural cloud cover, overlapping of contrails, and size of the ice particles that form in them. They call for further research into the full extent of current contrail coverage and the specific effect of contrails in forcing climate change.


In a later lesson we'll discuss how nitrous oxides from aircraft exhaust are contributing to ozone depletion.

We'll make this easy for you and just take it one step at a time.

And Bonehead, I'm sorry if you are unable to comprehend the connections between accelerating climate change and aircraft emissions.

You obviously have a lot of catching up to do.

As George Bush Sr. was so fond of saying, "Watch and Learn".

[foot_soldier]

"jayreynolds" wrote:


I wouldn't say "considerable" alterations in atmospheric chemistry. I don't think ordinary contrails have a large effect on atmospheric chemistry at all. If you, or anyone else, has evidence quantifying such a thing, I'd be happy to read it.

NASA's ongoing Atmospheric Effects of Aviation Project has measured emissions from the engines of several commercial and research aircraft. Jet engine emissions have been shown to affect the concentrations of atmospheric water vapor and aerosols, and they may affect how clouds form and the concentrations of atmospheric ozone. Few actual measurements of their effects have been made, however.

In the spring of 1996, the Subsonic Aircraft Contrail and Cloud Effects Special Study (SUCCESS) focused on subsonic aircraft contrails and the impact of the aerosols in those contrails on cirrus clouds and atmospheric chemistry. Researchers have determined that aircraft contrails can prolong the presence of high altitude cirrus clouds while also decreasing the size of the ice crystals that make up the clouds. Studies like SUCCESS and AEAP will be ongoing as scientists continue to try to understand how aerosols affect our atmosphere and climate.

August 1996
Atmospheric Aerosols: What Are They and Why Are They So Important?
http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Aerosols.html

=====================================

Leading European researchers have concluded that aircraft emissions are small in comparison to all other man-made emissions, but could be significantly affecting atmospheric ozone and cloud cover with possible implications for climate change. These are the conclusions of a comprehensive review of the current state of knowledge carried out at the initiative of the European Commission and published today in the scientific journal "Atmospheric Environment".

The authors of the review, entitled "European Scientific Assessment of the Atmospheric Effects of Aircraft Emissions", which relies heavily on the results of successful European and national research programmes, conclude that:

1) The 20-50% increase in the NOx abundance caused by aircraft traffic in the vicinity of their cruising altitude (10-12 km) has produced a 4-8% increase in the ozone concentration of the upper troposphere (maximum value during summertime) where ozone is a strong greenhouse gas. The warming effect associated with this ozone increase is comparable to the warming effect of CO2 emitted by aircraft (about 2-3% of all anthropogenic CO2 emissions).

May 1998
Rapid increase of aircraft emissions could affect atmospheric ozone and climate in the future
http://europa.eu.int/comm/research/press/1998/pr2805en.html
=====================================

Aircraft emit gases and particles directly into the upper troposphere and lower stratosphere where they have an impact on atmospheric composition. These gases and particles alter the concentration of atmospheric greenhouse gases, including carbon dioxide CO2), ozone (O3), and methane (CH4); trigger formation of condensation trails (contrails); and may increase cirrus cloudiness—all of which contribute to climate change.

April 1999
Aviation and the Global Atmosphere
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/004.htm

=====================================

Gas phase chemistry and heterogeneous reactions on contrail and cirrus particles

Aerosols and ice particles contribute to changes in ozone and other air constituents. NOx emissions by subsonic aircraft lead to net ozone production in the tropopause region. However, within contrails, halogen components may get activated and NOx and hydroxyl radicals may get reduced, causing less ozone production, and ozone depletion is possible at least locally within contrails. In the lowermost stratosphere, ozone destruction is caused by heterogeneous chlorine activation on contrail ice particles, whereas in the upper troposphere ozone production is compensated by heterogeneous reduction of OH radicals (S. Meilinger et al.).

November 2000
Report on the European Workshop “Aviation, Aerosols, Contrails and Cirrus Clouds” (A2C3),
Seeheim near Frankfurt/Main, July 10-12, 2000
http://www.aero-net.org/a2c3/a2c3sum.htm

=====================================

System for assessing Aviation’s Global Emissions (SAGE)

SAGE is a modeling system to forecast aircraft operations and estimate aircraft emissions - carbon dioxide (CO2), carbon monoxide (CO), nitrogen oxides (NOx), hydrocarbons (HC) – as a function of altitude and geographic location, with potential functionality to compute the costs and benefits of aviation emission mitigation options.

Schedule: Version 1 model development 2001-2002.

Office of Environment and Energy
The Federal Aviation Administration
http://www.aee.faa.gov/emissions/global/sage.htm

"jayreynolds" wrote:


As far as "beginning to alter regional climate patterns", I understand that the study done shows an increase in diurnal temperature range during the three days subsequent to 9/11. The authors attributed a portion of the change in DTR to lack of persistent contrails. Interesting study likely to be unrepeatable, and statistically small. Though the authors seem to have done their best to screen out any confounding variables, three days do not a climate make.

With more than 62 million commercial and military flights weaving trails of jet exhaust across the skies above the United States each year, there's an emerging question on the radar screens of some climatologists.

And the short answer, according to Steven Ackerman, a professor of atmospheric science, is that jet exhaust plumes -- commonly referred to as contrails -- can indeed influence regional climate.

Addressing scientists at a meeting of the American Geophysical Union, Ackerman detailed the results of a year-long study of contrails and their fate in the upper atmosphere.

"Contrails are of concern in climate studies because increased jet traffic may result in an increase in cloud cover," said Ackerman. "It's been estimated that in certain heavy air-traffic corridors, cloud cover has increased by as much as 20 percent."

=====================================

As for the "statistical smallness" of the post-9/11 contrail study, you don't get approval for work of that magnitude, particularly under such sensitive circumstances and on such short notice, unless you have 1) a pretty good reputation for consistently credible and reproducible work and 2) a pretty good idea of what it is you're attempting to validate. It's highly unlikely that it will even be possible to reproduce this study given the unique conditions that were necessary to its success.

[foot_soldier]

Deletion of double-post.

[foot_soldier]

"jayreynolds" wrote:


I wouldn't say "considerable" alterations in atmospheric chemistry. I don't think ordinary contrails have a large effect on atmospheric chemistry at all. If you, or anyone else, has evidence quantifying such a thing, I'd be happy to read it.

NASA's ongoing Atmospheric Effects of Aviation Project has measured emissions from the engines of several commercial and research aircraft. Jet engine emissions have been shown to affect the concentrations of atmospheric water vapor and aerosols, and they may affect how clouds form and the concentrations of atmospheric ozone. Few actual measurements of their effects have been made, however.

In the spring of 1996, the Subsonic Aircraft Contrail and Cloud Effects Special Study (SUCCESS) focused on subsonic aircraft contrails and the impact of the aerosols in those contrails on cirrus clouds and atmospheric chemistry. Researchers have determined that aircraft contrails can prolong the presence of high altitude cirrus clouds while also decreasing the size of the ice crystals that make up the clouds. Studies like SUCCESS and AEAP will be ongoing as scientists continue to try to understand how aerosols affect our atmosphere and climate.

August 1996
Atmospheric Aerosols: What Are They and Why Are They So Important?
http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Aerosols.html

=====================================

Leading European researchers have concluded that aircraft emissions are small in comparison to all other man-made emissions, but could be significantly affecting atmospheric ozone and cloud cover with possible implications for climate change. These are the conclusions of a comprehensive review of the current state of knowledge carried out at the initiative of the European Commission and published today in the scientific journal "Atmospheric Environment".

The authors of the review, entitled "European Scientific Assessment of the Atmospheric Effects of Aircraft Emissions", which relies heavily on the results of successful European and national research programmes, conclude that:

1) The 20-50% increase in the NOx abundance caused by aircraft traffic in the vicinity of their cruising altitude (10-12 km) has produced a 4-8% increase in the ozone concentration of the upper troposphere (maximum value during summertime) where ozone is a strong greenhouse gas. The warming effect associated with this ozone increase is comparable to the warming effect of CO2 emitted by aircraft (about 2-3% of all anthropogenic CO2 emissions).

May 1998
Rapid increase of aircraft emissions could affect atmospheric ozone and climate in the future
http://europa.eu.int/comm/research/press/1998/pr2805en.html
=====================================

Aircraft emit gases and particles directly into the upper troposphere and lower stratosphere where they have an impact on atmospheric composition. These gases and particles alter the concentration of atmospheric greenhouse gases, including carbon dioxide CO2), ozone (O3), and methane (CH4); trigger formation of condensation trails (contrails); and may increase cirrus cloudiness—all of which contribute to climate change.

April 1999
Aviation and the Global Atmosphere
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/004.htm

=====================================

Gas phase chemistry and heterogeneous reactions on contrail and cirrus particles

Aerosols and ice particles contribute to changes in ozone and other air constituents. NOx emissions by subsonic aircraft lead to net ozone production in the tropopause region. However, within contrails, halogen components may get activated and NOx and hydroxyl radicals may get reduced, causing less ozone production, and ozone depletion is possible at least locally within contrails. In the lowermost stratosphere, ozone destruction is caused by heterogeneous chlorine activation on contrail ice particles, whereas in the upper troposphere ozone production is compensated by heterogeneous reduction of OH radicals (S. Meilinger et al.).

November 2000
Report on the European Workshop “Aviation, Aerosols, Contrails and Cirrus Clouds” (A2C3),
Seeheim near Frankfurt/Main, July 10-12, 2000
http://www.aero-net.org/a2c3/a2c3sum.htm

=====================================

System for assessing Aviation’s Global Emissions (SAGE)

SAGE is a modeling system to forecast aircraft operations and estimate aircraft emissions - carbon dioxide (CO2), carbon monoxide (CO), nitrogen oxides (NOx), hydrocarbons (HC) – as a function of altitude and geographic location, with potential functionality to compute the costs and benefits of aviation emission mitigation options.

Schedule: Version 1 model development 2001-2002.

Office of Environment and Energy
The Federal Aviation Administration
http://www.aee.faa.gov/emissions/global/sage.htm

"jayreynolds" wrote:


As far as "beginning to alter regional climate patterns", I understand that the study done shows an increase in diurnal temperature range during the three days subsequent to 9/11. The authors attributed a portion of the change in DTR to lack of persistent contrails. Interesting study likely to be unrepeatable, and statistically small. Though the authors seem to have done their best to screen out any confounding variables, three days do not a climate make.

With more than 62 million commercial and military flights weaving trails of jet exhaust across the skies above the United States each year, there's an emerging question on the radar screens of some climatologists.

And the short answer, according to Steven Ackerman, a professor of atmospheric science, is that jet exhaust plumes -- commonly referred to as contrails -- can indeed influence regional climate.

Addressing scientists at a meeting of the American Geophysical Union, Ackerman detailed the results of a year-long study of contrails and their fate in the upper atmosphere.

"Contrails are of concern in climate studies because increased jet traffic may result in an increase in cloud cover," said Ackerman. "It's been estimated that in certain heavy air-traffic corridors, cloud cover has increased by as much as 20 percent."

=====================================

As for the "statistical smallness" of the post-9/11 contrail study, you don't get approval for work of that magnitude, particularly under such sensitive circumstances and on such short notice, unless you have 1) a pretty good reputation for consistently credible and reproducible work and 2) a pretty good idea of what it is you're attempting to validate. It's highly unlikely that it will even be possible to reproduce this study given the unique conditions that were necessary to its success.

[foot_soldier]

Deletion of double-post.

[gaiacomm]

The answers are coming!

I notice that Jay and his tribal group seem to deflect and move away from direct debate with gaiacomm. They like the nutcase senario and other one word remarks! But they never seem to direct anything of substance accept for insults from afar!

They have looked into gaiacomm and they know that they do not have a chance. But they will spend pages of data in attack mode to again deflect the chemtrail issues.

Again Jay and his tribal group are afraid that someone is about to come forward and explain what they have been in debate for 5 years.

And for Arianna she has no clue what is going on with this forum. Just another ego booster to brag on a talk show. Ratings are important!

And you cyberjunkies are just plain ignorant!

Jay kiss Karen for us all!

[gaiacomm]

The answers are coming!

I notice that Jay and his tribal group seem to deflect and move away from direct debate with gaiacomm. They like the nutcase senario and other one word remarks! But they never seem to direct anything of substance accept for insults from afar!

They have looked into gaiacomm and they know that they do not have a chance. But they will spend pages of data in attack mode to again deflect the chemtrail issues.

Again Jay and his tribal group are afraid that someone is about to come forward and explain what they have been in debate for 5 years.

And for Arianna she has no clue what is going on with this forum. Just another ego booster to brag on a talk show. Ratings are important!

And you cyberjunkies are just plain ignorant!

Jay kiss Karen for us all!

[gaiacomm]

The answers are coming!

I notice that Jay and his tribal group seem to deflect and move away from direct debate with gaiacomm. They like the nutcase senario and other one word remarks! But they never seem to direct anything of substance accept for insults from afar!

They have looked into gaiacomm and they know that they do not have a chance. But they will spend pages of data in attack mode to again deflect the chemtrail issues.

Again Jay and his tribal group are afraid that someone is about to come forward and explain what they have been in debate for 5 years.

And for Arianna she has no clue what is going on with this forum. Just another ego booster to brag on a talk show. Ratings are important!

And you cyberjunkies are just plain ignorant!

Jay kiss Karen for us all!

[gaiacomm]

last Post!

[halva]

Gaiacomm I am busy for twenty four hours and you immediately go off the rails attacking Arianna and giving Reynolds his excuse to get back in the argument.

Forget about whether Arianna is paying attention or not.

Trying to provoke her into intervening on this thread by attacking her personally is an idiot's strategy.

There has to be a two-track approach to the climate change/geoengineering issue, and it doesn't involve slagging people off for being copouts and rich opportunists.

Leave that kind of talk to Reynolds.

[halva]

Delete repetition.

[jayreynolds]

he he he

Hard to stop a nutcase once you've set one off, eh, wayne?

Blowback is a beach.
:lol:
Jay

[halva]

I have an announcement to make. I am now willing to discuss why I have been forced to debunk "chemtrails", and what "payoff" I have received for doing so.

However, as I give, I also hope to receive, and so am willing to make my own personal revelations if and only after certain information heretofore undiclosed is exchanged.

'Sore', answer the following questions. When they are answered by you, categorically, honestly, and completely, I will reveal publicly to everyone on this board exactly what "payoff" I receive for debunking the "chemtrails" hoax.

Surely this is a fair and equitable trade you would be willing to make for such essential information?

I will be awaiting your answers, and urge your fellow chemmies to encourage your participation.
Jay
==================


If Reynolds wants to reveal after all these years why he has felt it his duty to tell lies about chemtrails/contrails, or for what other reason other than duty he has done so, I have no objection to this.

I have heard such confessions off the record from people belonging more to the social-engineering, geo-engineering, socialist-ecologist, United Nations, globalist school than to the self-professed conservative, patriotic rule-of-law school of thought to which Reynolds claims to belong.

If Reynolds wants to confess too, why not?

But to attach conditions to the confession, to suggest that only those of some level of scientific expertise are qualified to receive the confession....this is a type of would-be'wheeling-and-dealing' I have never seen before.

I do not agree that Gaiacomm is more of a nutcase than a person who can make such a proposal.

And I would ask Reynold's deadhead followers to note that your boss is proposing a deal which, if certain terms are satisfied, will motivate him to 'come clean'.

What are you going to say and do if and when he finally does reveal to the world his reasons for having lied about chemtrails/contrails?

Will you propose similar deals?

[gaiacomm]

Gaiacomm I am busy for twenty four hours and you immediately go off the rails attacking Arianna and giving Reynolds his excuse to get back in the argument.

Forget about whether Arianna is paying attention or not.

Trying to provoke her into intervening on this thread by attacking her personally is an idiot's strategy.

There has to be a two-track approach to the climate change/geoengineering issue, and it doesn't involve slagging people off for being copouts and rich opportunists.

Leave that kind of talk to Reynolds.



Kind Halva:

No need to worry! Those remarks about Arianna are my opinions and not attacks! I know she will not post here but I just wanted the readers to know that point!

Halva, this is the internet! Anything goes...remember?
As long as I am precieved as a lunatic and nutcase I can wander around and attack from within!
After all a nutcase would not be suspected!

[gaiacomm]

he he he

Hard to stop a nutcase once you've set one off, eh, wayne?

Blowback is a beach.
:lol:
Jay


Jay;

You are correct with that statement.

You and I know why you are afraid of me!

Its funny you call chemmies mad and insane but you really do not wish me part of this game!

But I am the game!

Jay do you wish to debate? I think not....you are a cowardly little man.
How can Karen climb into bed with a man who is fearful of others who may know!

How can Karen accept that her husband is a failure and spends his life on the internet chasing the holy grail!

According to your marriage license you two are quite a pair.

Maybe we should post SAT photos of your house and backyard!

I have a question on your business license! But that can wait.


Don't forget to kiss Karen for us all!

[gaiacomm]

Jay:

You know by now that I am a Physicist. And you also know that I know. You did your checking and you know that I can blow this open.

You also know my politics and opinions. Just check the internet!

You also know that I can access information.

You also know that the US Government will not bother me because of my status within the ranks.

Just look at the various posts and stories on me!

Jay, Chemtrails are a fact and so are Contrails. We know all of the data that can be obtained. And you also know that you did not recieve the responses from the agencies you contacted.

Jay...you need Top Secret access....... you need friends in WDC.....you need an edge in the scientific arena, you need more than a BS degree, you need lobbyists that snitch, you need Senators that know and trust you, you need military agencies to trust you and you know that you could not post your results in this public forum.

You know that the so-called chemmies cannot give it all...but their information leads to questions and results and questions that do not get answered.

I asked you what would you do with the truth? Do you want Karen to know that she and you are being poisoned by the air or water in your area?

What will you do with the truth, Jay...tell me and just maybe someone will give you a sneak peek of the future.

[foot_soldier]

There are 62 million commercial and military flights across U.S. skies each year. "An endless queue of aircraft produce persistent contrails in their wakes, seen or unseen, night and day, coming and going from airport to airport across the planet," says Jim Scanlon, a science writer.

An NSF funded study by Steven Ackerman of the University of Milwaukee, Wisconsin finds that jet contrails indeed influence regional climate. He says, "It's been estimated that in certain heavy air traffic corridors, cloud cover has increased by as much as 20 percent."

September 14, 1997
http://csf.colorado.edu/envtecsoc/97f/0059.html

========================================

Let's do some figuring here:

"62 million commercial and military flights across U.S. skies each year" [as of 1997] =

__Approx. 5,166,666 flights each month

__Approx. 1,291,500 flights each week

__Approx. 172,200 flights each day

That's not enough flights "across U.S. skies"! We need more flights, don't you think?

[foot_soldier]

Deletion of double-post.

[jayreynolds]

foot soldier wrote:
"Let's do some figuring here:

"62 million commercial and military flights across U.S. skies each year" [as of 1997] =

__Approx. 5,166,666 flights each month

__Approx. 1,291,500 flights each week

__Approx. 172,200 flights each day

I think you should check the provenance of this data. Dr. Claire Gilbert is a personal friend of mine but she has some "issues". This inordinate number of flights would have to include general aviation(private planes pipercubs, cessnas, and student pilots,etc.) and air taxi/commuter flights. Amost none of those planes reach contrailing altitudes.

Speaking frankly, the figure is bunk, impossible.

Footsoldier, you seem reasonable, if not perfectly informed. Care to take a stab at my questions? I would like to see exactly where you stand.

[gaiacomm]

HISTORY IS A VAST EARLY WARNING SYSYTEM!

[gaiacomm]

HISTORY IS A EARLY WARNING SYSTEM!

[halva]

IGAP

The objective of the International Global Aerosol Program (IGAP) is to
improve the understanding of the role of atmospheric aerosols in the
forcing mechanisms and forecasting of changes in global climate, and in
geospheric-biospheric processes. IGAP plans to accomplish this objective
by: 1) the establishment of global aerosol climatologies, 2) the
standardization of measurement and analysis procedures for monitoring
global aerosol characteristics and for validating models, 3) the
organization of regional and process-specific field experiments and
studies, and 4) the implementation of information exchange mechanisms.

**

Go google:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_qdr=all&lr=lang_en&q=+%22International+Global+Aerosol+Program%22&spell=1

**

[gaiacomm]

foot soldier wrote:
"Let's do some figuring here:

"62 million commercial and military flights across U.S. skies each year" [as of 1997] =

__Approx. 5,166,666 flights each month

__Approx. 1,291,500 flights each week

__Approx. 172,200 flights each day

I think you should check the provenance of this data. Dr. Claire Gilbert is a personal friend of mine but she has some "issues". This inordinate number of flights would have to include general aviation(private planes pipercubs, cessnas, and student pilots,etc.) and air taxi/commuter flights. Amost none of those planes reach contrailing altitudes.

Speaking frankly, the figure is bunk, impossible.

Footsoldier, you seem reasonable, if not perfectly informed. Care to take a stab at my questions? I would like to see exactly where you stand.



Blazing Tattle's publisher's news item featured on web site of Environment News Service 9/12/97-9/15/97.
Jet Trails May Change Global Climate
Posted to the web: Fri Sep 12 13:48:40 EDT 1997



By Claire Gilbert, Ph.D.

HALF MOON BAY, California, September 12, 1997 (ENS) - Jet planes leave behind vapor condensation trails called "contrails," which often stay in the sky for many hours and spread out to become icy cirrus clouds. They are not as innocent as they appear.

Contrails are similar to the white steam we exhale in cold weather. Until recently, almost nothing was known about how clouds affect climate, but current research indicates the problem of clouds is an important one for global climate change. A recent statement released by the National Science Foundation (NSF) explains that the effect of the wispy plumes from jet exhausts is "an emerging question."

There are 62 million commercial and military flights across U.S. skies each year. "An endless queue of aircraft produce persistent contrails in their wakes, seen or unseen, night and day, coming and going from airport to airport across the planet," says Jim Scanlon, a science writer.

An NSF funded study by Steven Ackerman of the University of Milwaukee, Wisconsin finds that jet contrails indeed influence regional climate. He says, "It's been estimated that in certain heavy air traffic corridors, cloud cover has increased by as much as 20 percent."

Patrick Minnis of NASA's Langly Research Center, in the June 13 issue of Science News, says it is hard to research these vapor trails, but cloud cover is up about 5% in the U.S. since jet travel mushroomed several decades ago. Most of the new clouds may be in the form of cirrus that contrails evolve into, says Minnis.

Satellite observations miss a lot of detail, but imaging large areas every 15 minutes with the advanced Geostationary Operational Environmental Satellite has detected extremely long lived contrails.

Ackerman's research is considering whether the contrails are changing the chemistry in the upper atmosphere and how great is the effect. Jet motors expel invisible oxides of nitrogen, carbon (dioxide and monoxide), soot, and unburned hydrocarbon fuel, in addition to the water vapor which becomes the white trails we see. Jet planes pollute just as autos do, but the location of jet pollution is more serious in terms of impact on atmosphere and climate.

On the ground and while climbing, the effect of jet exhaust is similar to that of other vehicles. Once at cruising altitude, either slightly below the stratosphere or in it, the temperature is very low. The air is also very dry and relatively much cleaner than at the level on the ground where we live. The waste gases in aircraft exhaust have very complicated effects that are different from the effects of vehicle exhaust. Exactly what these effects are has not yet been accounted for in theories of climate change.

It appears that high clouds originating from contrails spread to cover tens of thousands of square kilometers. They trap heat.

Warming a part of the atmosphere that is normally much colder may break down the structure of it. This effect is more pronounced where a large number of planes fly fixed routes. Also, water from jet exhausts is being introduced in massive and ever increasing amounts at the boundary of the stratosphere.

The gases emitted from the jet aircraft flying in the stratosphere reduce the natural ozone and have other effects, according to Scanlon, and allow energetic ultraviolet radiation to penetrate lower where it warms the air and may even reach the surface of the earth.

Many climate scientists are now asking, "Can clouds from contrails contribute toward changing the local, regional, or perhaps global climate?"

Ulrich Schumann of the German Aerospace Research Organization (DRL) in Oherpfaffenhofen thinks the global effect is small. However, from the standpoint of scientific research, the effects of contrails confuse finding a distinctive pattern for other human influences on climate.

The thousands of aircraft traversing the North Atlantic Flight Corridor, fly an estimated 44% of the time in the stratosphere. Civil aircraft fly in the stratosphere from 17% to 25% of the time. This flight time will increase as the fleet grows and newer generations of sub-sonic jets, being introduced right now, will enter service and fly higher and longer. Some estimates predict the total flight time of civil aircraft in the stratosphere could double by 2020.

It will be very hard to sell the public on the idea that jet planes can cause serious climate change. There is a trillion dollar industry involved which provides millions of high paying, glamorous jobs and the magic carpets which carry us across continents in a few drowsy hours. Who wants to think that jet flying might be highly dangerous to life on earth?

{Please send any comments to Claire Gilbert at claire@blazingtattles.com}

[gaiacomm]

http://www.blazingtattles.com/

[gaiacomm]

http://csf.colorado.edu/envtecsoc/96s/0033.html

[gaiacomm]

Jay, how well do you know her?


If you want to contact the publisher, just click here: claire@blazingtattles.com

[gaiacomm]

Jay;

I see from your insistent remarks and your boring questions you are attempting to milk the cow thru the fence for free!

Quote:Footsoldier, you seem reasonable, if not perfectly informed. Care to take a stab at my questions? I would like to see exactly where you stand.

[gaiacomm]

Jay:

You know by now that I am a Physicist. And you also know that I know. You did your checking and you know that I can blow this open.

You also know my politics and opinions. Just check the internet!

You also know that I can access information.

You also know that the US Government will not bother me because of my status within the ranks.

Just look at the various posts and stories on me!

Jay, Chemtrails are a fact and so are Contrails. We know all of the data that can be obtained. And you also know that you did not recieve the responses from the agencies you contacted.

Jay...you need Top Secret access....... you need friends in WDC.....you need an edge in the scientific arena, you need more than a BS degree, you need lobbyists that snitch, you need Senators that know and trust you, you need military agencies to trust you and you know that you could not post your results in this public forum.

You know that the so-called chemmies cannot give it all...but their information leads to questions and results and questions that do not get answered.

I asked you what would you do with the truth? Do you want Karen to know that she and you are being poisoned by the air or water in your area?

What will you do with the truth, Jay...tell me and just maybe someone will give you a sneak peek of the future.

[liakopoulos]

Hey Jay long time no see. People say "be carefool what you ask for, you might get it. Dear gaiacom, I am very much interested in having a look at Jay's backyard.

[gaiacomm]

Hey Jay long time no see. People say "be carefool what you ask for, you might get it. Dear gaiacom, I am very much interested in having a look at Jay's backyard.


Its only $5.95 and its worth it!


http://find.intelius.com/search-name.php

[liakopoulos]

Dear gaiacomm I congratulate you on your contribution on Jay's total defeat. I've sent you a PM .Have you ever received it?

[gaiacomm]

Dear gaiacomm I congratulate you on your contribution on Jay's total defeat. I've sent you a PM .Have you ever received it?


Thank you!

No I have not recieved your PM.

Jay is leaving a contrail on his way to the ground!

[jayreynolds]

Hey, 'Professor' Demosthenis Liakopoulos,

Would you be willing to debate this group of Greek scientists regarding the chemtrail hoax?

Looks like a good list of prospects for my Greek anti-chemtrails coalition, yes?

Better hope you done your homework good, dude!

What kind of sauce goes with 'Liakopoulos souvlaki' ?
Jay :lol:


Christos Repapis
Director, Lab. of Climatology and Atmospheric Physics

Asimakopoulos D.,
Vice Rector, University of Athens

Bais A.
LAP, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki

Eleftheratos K.
LACAE, University of Athens

Kanakidou M.
University of Crete

Kourtidis K.
University of Thrace

Mihalopoulos N.
University of Crete

Papagiannakopoulos P.
University of Crete; President, National Hellenic Research Foundation

Papayannis A.
National Technical University of Athens

Stephanou E.
University of Crete

Varotsos K.
University of Athens

Zanis P.
Academy of Athens

Ziomas I.
National Technical University of Athens

Zerefos C.
Secretary, IOC; LACAE, University of Athens

[gaiacomm]

Hey, 'Professor' Demosthenis Liakopoulos,

Would you be willing to debate this group of Greek scientists regarding the chemtrail hoax?

Looks like a good list of prospects for my Greek anti-chemtrails coalition, yes?

Better hope you done your homework, dude!
Jay :lol:


Christos Repapis
Director, Lab. of Climatology and Atmospheric Physics




!
Asimakopoulos D.,
Vice Rector, University of Athens

Bais A.
LAP, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki

Eleftheratos K.
LACAE, University of Athens

Kanakidou M.
University of Crete

Kourtidis K.
University of Thrace

Mihalopoulos N.
University of Crete

Papagiannakopoulos P.
University of Crete; President, National Hellenic Research Foundation

Papayannis A.
National Technical University of Athens

Stephanou E.
University of Crete

Varotsos K.
University of Athens

Zanis P.
Academy of Athens

Ziomas I.
National Technical University of Athens

Zerefos C.
Secretary, IOC; LACAE, University of Athens



Jay:

I will! Bring them to me!

You are leaving such a beautiful CONTRAIL on your way out!

[gaiacomm]

Bring any scientist to me Jay and I will debate the issue of your choice.

Readers:

Once again I have challenged Jay and his band of merry men to a open debate on any subject with anyone anywhere and I would pay for all costs! Even TV and Radio I would pay for...a front page ad on any newspaper.... but Jay and his crew are fearful of this debate....so ask yourselves is it worth the energy to even respond to Jay because it goes nowhere. Jay is lost in space!

His beautiful wife Karen needs to comfort him and give some other focus.

Jay is finished on chemtrails and he knows it...Jay again I ask you to leave this place and go find some other place for you to play..!

Jay, spend more time with Karen. Can we send Karen an email and tell her what you are doing? Or maybe your grown up children....maybe they should know....commercial firewalls have holes............

Jay...got milk?

[halva]

We're not showing our cards in advance.

WH

[Sore Throat]

Jay Reynolds and his crowd seem to be having difficuly acknowledging that aircraft contrails aren't as harmless as they say.

An extreme state of denial, given the growing body of scientific research indicating that this is not true.

Why do you think that is?

Why are they ignoring the documented impact on ozone depletion and contribution to global warming?





Blue skies will be but a faded memory, we'll ask children what color the sky is and they will say WHITE.

Tell me again granddad, were the skies really once blue when you were young?

Yes Billy they were, before the intentional modification began.




You asked for my definition of Chemtrials... here's one that's rather expressive:



But then the debunkers will say this is just "normal" exhaust...they've seen such trails a thousand times...perfectly normal.

So where are we then?

Well, we'll just have to leave it up to the personal experience of the individuals viewing this thread. Nothing can be said that will change their own perceptions...their own memories....their recollection of our skies before 1999.

[liakopoulos]

Any time any place. Besides they ARE scientists and not amateurs like you. They will be able to talk and not bark like you. Hey Jay is it true that the FEDs are after you? If yes why? By the way Jay, why don't you join a real face to face debate yourself instead of letting others fight your battles for you? Besides since you mentioned all these greek scientist just because you found their names in the internet, you will be astonished to find out that some of them do not agree with you. And something else ,don't shake hands with any of them so that you will not have to count your fingers afterwards ,since they are Greeks, or have you forgotten your insults?

[liakopoulos]

CON RAYNOLDS OR RAYNOLDS-CON?

[liakopoulos]

Hey Jay, why don't you bring a couple of your funcy zionist scientists too! How about ARIEL SARRON himself?OH! I am sorry we'll talk about chemtrails not slaughter of innocent children and women!

[liakopoulos]

Why isn't Jay answering? Hey gaiacomm, did seismographs register the big bang of his crash? Perhaps there is only the chemtrail left behind him in memory of the great scientist (in his own mind).

[Bonehead9]

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:02 pm

Any time any place. Besides they ARE scientists and not amateurs like you. They will be able to talk and not bark like you. Hey Jay is it true that the FEDs are after you? If yes why? By the way Jay, why don't you join a real face to face debate yourself instead of letting others fight your battles for you? Besides since you mentioned all these greek scientist just because you found their names in the internet, you will be astonished to find out that some of them do not agree with you. And something else ,don't shake hands with any of them so that you will not have to count your fingers afterwards ,since they are Greeks, or have you forgotten your insults?

- - -

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:08 pm

CON RAYNOLDS OR RAYNOLDS-CON?


- - - -

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:16 pm

Hey Jay, why don't you bring a couple of your funcy zionist scientists too! How about ARIEL SARRON himself?OH! I am sorry we'll talk about chemtrails not slaughter of innocent children and women!

- - - -


PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:22 pm

Why isn't Jay answering? Hey gaiacomm, did seismographs register the big bang of his crash? Perhaps there is only the chemtrail left behind him in memory of the great scientist (in his own mind).

- - -

That is a very interesting series of posts. Notice the childish taunting and name calling. Notice the timing of the posts, a series of short posts rapidly following each other. Notice that the author expects, almost demands (like a small, spoiled child), that Jay respond to him {b]Right NOW.[/b]


Finally notice how he crows about his victory after only a half hour from his initial post.

Where have we seen such infantile behavior before?

Oh yes. . .


Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:48 pm

J.R.

Why do you sign your name at the end of each post with a promo string to your website? I thought the link is already there below your post that people can click on!

A yes the ego, I forgot.

Foot soldier:

The answer to your question on your last post is: Yes you are correct...keep up the good work!

Jay, its just you and me now!

So whats next?

Everyone is reading and waiting.

Or are you a coward with no backbone?

Remember we are in cyberspace where we can all be kings and queens!!!

Can you see me Jay because I can see you!.....a modified pc anywhere!!

- - -

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:56 pm

J.R.

Now its between you and me!

Come on Jay everyone is waiting!

Take me on I dare you! Oh yes that fear again is in the way!
What can we do to get your confidence up?

Jay you are beaten....gracefully leave this forum.
You have attempted to miss inform. Your website is full of copied info with very little substance.

Jay, keep your manhood before that is even taken from you!

- - - -

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:01 pm

Jay:

I am still waiting!

Its different when someone else is the agressor is it not?

You feel so defeated and small.

Your like a big kid in the yard that bullied other children until someone from another street came in and challenged you!

Jay, put up or stop posting!

- - - -


Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:16 pm

Jay:

Ok I will treat you like a child now!

Chemtrails are real! You cannot discount that fact.
GeoEngineering is real! You cannot discount that fact.
Various photos of chemtrails are real!
Jay is afraid!
Jay has no life!
Jay needs the internet to survive!
Jay cannot dominate this forum!
Jay is afraid of Gaiacomm!
Contrails are real!
Jays worse fear is the internet being shut down.
Jay needs to accept defeat!
Jay hates to lose to smart people!
Jay plays dirty!
Jay tampers with information!
Jay is self serving!
Jay is Jay! or John or whatever!


Jay we are all waiting...after all you wrote that I am the new spokeperson for chemtrails!

So lets get started!

- - - -

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:24 pm

Jay:

Your time is running out.

Don't you just hate payback?

Remember all of those people you insulted with your chatter?

Well now they are all here watching and waiting. Its funny how when I post you stop posting. Then when the dust settles you come back like a coward.

The members on the Chemtrail website and this site have all been contacted using private email accounts to direct them to this forum.

Now Gladiator lets debate you have a very large audience that is watching.

Don't tell me you are not a gladiator but the fool!

Jay you now have the floor! Are you giving it to me?

- - - -

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:30 pm

Jay:

It seems that I win the debate!

The verdict to you for losing is to banish you from this forum never to be heard from again!

So banish yourself Jay, we won't...be a man and do something right for a change.

Readers:

I challenged Jay numerous times and he did not wish to accept...so he has given over to the acceptance of the Chemtrails saga and his opinions are not accepted on this forum anymore!

Chemtrails has one the debate!

Jay has admitted that Chemtrails are real and that he was wrong with his statements and Jay will adjust his website to reflect the new truth.
Jay is sorry for being in the dark on chemtrails and he wishes to be forgiven for his ignorance!



Yes, these are two very interesting series of posts. The similarity in the posting styles and the same infantile behavior patterns make me wonder. . . .



Are you in on this too, Halva, or has Lance fooled you one more time?

[jayreynolds]

Looks like I shook you up a little, eh Demosthenis?
You probably assumed I was powerless to unleash the forces
of science against your lies. Think again.
:shock:

Yes, I've been looking into just what sort of relevant scientists
might be interested in debunking the "chemtrails" hoax over in Greece. Looks like I've found the set which will do quite nicely, judging by your angry reaction!

I've also been looking into skeptics in Greece as well,
you know, people who use logic and reason to destroy false
assumptions. The right ones will be available to set up the websites, write the debate scripts, and set up air time. It seems that some sophists still exist over there!

And, yes, Liakopoulos, there are legions of smart Jewish scientists
working against you, tunnelling under your very feet at this moment.
Whispered words, hastily scribbled notes furtively tucked into sweaty palms, passed on from one to the next. Yes, global plots are being
hatched to put an end once-and-for-all to the bane of Thesaloniki
-NOT.

Hey, have you come up with any answers for my questions yet, we're going past 42 pages and you haven't yet been able to answer even these simple questions?

What's wrong, "EVIL EYE" got you?

Or would your answers reveal too much you'd rather hide so not even your fellow chemmies will know:

A. How stupid and ignorant you really are.
B. That you know you are promoting a hoax but are doing it anyways.
===================================

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. What is your claim about the purpose of "chemtrails, what are they for?

[jayreynolds]

Liakopoulos is the real deal, sad to say that people out there like that really do exist. The chem-world is replete with nincompoops, scammers, trolls, liars, little hitlers, all varieties of aberrant psychopathology make up their ranks. I think they are just reading the same cues or are just simply being copy-cats.

This Liakopoulos supposedly wrote a book on chemtrails. Judging from the way he copies the idiot giacon the best he can do is a poor imitation of what some other 'jester' does.

Wanna bet the book is just a plagiarization of William Thomas' book and a few websites translated into Greek? Who would really ever know the difference, only some greaser over there could ever read the damn thing!

Liakopoulos reacted so poorly because he knows that his souvlaki is burned to a crisp now that the "chemtrails" hoax has come into view of real greek scientists, and my list is the creme-de-la-creme of what Greece has to offer in atmospheric science, bar none. THAT's what has him shook up.

[Bonehead9]

Yes, but is the Liakopoulos who wrote the book, the same Liakopoulos posting on this forum?

[gaiacomm]

Jay:

You know by now that I am a Physicist. And you also know that I know. You did your checking and you know that I can blow this open.

You also know my politics and opinions. Just check the internet!

You also know that I can access information.

You also know that the US Government will not bother me because of my status within the ranks.

Just look at the various posts and stories on me!

Jay, Chemtrails are a fact and so are Contrails. We know all of the data that can be obtained. And you also know that you did not recieve the responses from the agencies you contacted.

Jay...you need Top Secret access....... you need friends in WDC.....you need an edge in the scientific arena, you need more than a BS degree, you need lobbyists that snitch, you need Senators that know and trust you, you need military agencies to trust you and you know that you could not post your results in this public forum.

You know that the so-called chemmies cannot give it all...but their information leads to questions and results and questions that do not get answered.

I asked you what would you do with the truth? Do you want Karen to know that she and you are being poisoned by the air or water in your area?

What will you do with the truth, Jay...tell me and just maybe someone will give you a sneak peek of the future.

[gaiacomm]

Bring any scientist to me Jay and I will debate the issue of your choice.

Readers:

Once again I have challenged Jay and his band of merry men to a open debate on any subject with anyone anywhere and I would pay for all costs! Even TV and Radio I would pay for...a front page ad on any newspaper.... but Jay and his crew are fearful of this debate....so ask yourselves is it worth the energy to even respond to Jay because it goes nowhere. Jay is lost in space!

His beautiful wife Karen needs to comfort him and give some other focus.

Jay is finished on chemtrails and he knows it...Jay again I ask you to leave this place and go find some other place for you to play..!

Jay, spend more time with Karen. Can we send Karen an email and tell her what you are doing? Or maybe your grown up children....maybe they should know....commercial firewalls have holes............

Jay...got milk?

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Jay just does not get it! Jay knows that I am qualified to debate with him or his other showroom dummies!

Jay will not take me on! Come on Jay I dare you to debate me!

Now ask yourself Jay you have been made a fool by attacking me and others and not taking on the debate with a qualified Physicist.

But yet you wish to go after the ones that do not have the access you need to gather and report what you seek!

But the ones that do, you stay away from and call them nutcases and etc.

But everyone here knows that you have lost the chemtrail debate and we will not fall for your questions that you ask.

Was not my answer what you were looking for?

We see your contrail as it is in a spiral view to the ground!

Jay, you are finished...be a man and give up...at least do it for your wife Karen!

Nice photo of Karen!

[gaiacomm]

Bonehead:

You hide in the shadows and cast stones. Look behind you and you will see yourself!

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Jay just does not get it! Jay knows that I am qualified to debate with him or his other showroom dummies!

Jay will not take me on! Come on Jay I dare you to debate me!

Now ask yourself Jay you have been made a fool by attacking me and others and not taking on the debate with a qualified Physicist.

But yet you wish to go after the ones that do not have the access you need to gather and report what you seek!

But the ones that do, you stay away from and call them nutcases and etc.

But everyone here knows that you have lost the chemtrail debate and we will not fall for your questions that you ask.

Was not my answer what you were looking for?

We see your contrail as it is in a spiral view to the ground!

Jay, you are finished...be a man and give up...at least do it for your wife Karen!

Nice photo of Karen!

[gaiacomm]

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:02 pm

Any time any place. Besides they ARE scientists and not amateurs like you. They will be able to talk and not bark like you. Hey Jay is it true that the FEDs are after you? If yes why? By the way Jay, why don't you join a real face to face debate yourself instead of letting others fight your battles for you? Besides since you mentioned all these greek scientist just because you found their names in the internet, you will be astonished to find out that some of them do not agree with you. And something else ,don't shake hands with any of them so that you will not have to count your fingers afterwards ,since they are Greeks, or have you forgotten your insults?

- - -

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:08 pm

CON RAYNOLDS OR RAYNOLDS-CON?


- - - -

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:16 pm

Hey Jay, why don't you bring a couple of your funcy zionist scientists too! How about ARIEL SARRON himself?OH! I am sorry we'll talk about chemtrails not slaughter of innocent children and women!

- - - -


PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:22 pm

Why isn't Jay answering? Hey gaiacomm, did seismographs register the big bang of his crash? Perhaps there is only the chemtrail left behind him in memory of the great scientist (in his own mind).

- - -

That is a very interesting series of posts. Notice the childish taunting and name calling. Notice the timing of the posts, a series of short posts rapidly following each other. Notice that the author expects, almost demands (like a small, spoiled child), that Jay respond to him {b]Right NOW.[/b]


Finally notice how he crows about his victory after only a half hour from his initial post.

Where have we seen such infantile behavior before?

Oh yes. . .


Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:48 pm

J.R.

Why do you sign your name at the end of each post with a promo string to your website? I thought the link is already there below your post that people can click on!

A yes the ego, I forgot.

Foot soldier:

The answer to your question on your last post is: Yes you are correct...keep up the good work!

Jay, its just you and me now!

So whats next?

Everyone is reading and waiting.

Or are you a coward with no backbone?

Remember we are in cyberspace where we can all be kings and queens!!!

Can you see me Jay because I can see you!.....a modified pc anywhere!!

- - -

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:56 pm

J.R.

Now its between you and me!

Come on Jay everyone is waiting!

Take me on I dare you! Oh yes that fear again is in the way!
What can we do to get your confidence up?

Jay you are beaten....gracefully leave this forum.
You have attempted to miss inform. Your website is full of copied info with very little substance.

Jay, keep your manhood before that is even taken from you!

- - - -

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:01 pm

Jay:

I am still waiting!

Its different when someone else is the agressor is it not?

You feel so defeated and small.

Your like a big kid in the yard that bullied other children until someone from another street came in and challenged you!

Jay, put up or stop posting!

- - - -


Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:16 pm

Jay:

Ok I will treat you like a child now!

Chemtrails are real! You cannot discount that fact.
GeoEngineering is real! You cannot discount that fact.
Various photos of chemtrails are real!
Jay is afraid!
Jay has no life!
Jay needs the internet to survive!
Jay cannot dominate this forum!
Jay is afraid of Gaiacomm!
Contrails are real!
Jays worse fear is the internet being shut down.
Jay needs to accept defeat!
Jay hates to lose to smart people!
Jay plays dirty!
Jay tampers with information!
Jay is self serving!
Jay is Jay! or John or whatever!


Jay we are all waiting...after all you wrote that I am the new spokeperson for chemtrails!

So lets get started!

- - - -

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:24 pm

Jay:

Your time is running out.

Don't you just hate payback?

Remember all of those people you insulted with your chatter?

Well now they are all here watching and waiting. Its funny how when I post you stop posting. Then when the dust settles you come back like a coward.

The members on the Chemtrail website and this site have all been contacted using private email accounts to direct them to this forum.

Now Gladiator lets debate you have a very large audience that is watching.

Don't tell me you are not a gladiator but the fool!

Jay you now have the floor! Are you giving it to me?

- - - -

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:30 pm

Jay:

It seems that I win the debate!

The verdict to you for losing is to banish you from this forum never to be heard from again!

So banish yourself Jay, we won't...be a man and do something right for a change.

Readers:

I challenged Jay numerous times and he did not wish to accept...so he has given over to the acceptance of the Chemtrails saga and his opinions are not accepted on this forum anymore!

Chemtrails has one the debate!

Jay has admitted that Chemtrails are real and that he was wrong with his statements and Jay will adjust his website to reflect the new truth.
Jay is sorry for being in the dark on chemtrails and he wishes to be forgiven for his ignorance!



Yes, these are two very interesting series of posts. The similarity in the posting styles and the same infantile behavior patterns make me wonder. . . .



Are you in on this too, Halva, or has Lance fooled you one more time?

[Bonehead9]

Bonehead:

You hide in the shadows and cast stones. Look behind you and you will see yourself!


What, did that last rock hit you on the head?


Loser.


edit: make that a Childish Loser. It's past your bed time, con man.

[foot_soldier]

"jayreynolds" wrote:


I think you should check the provenance of this data. Dr. Claire Gilbert is a personal friend of mine but she has some "issues". This inordinate number of flights would have to include general aviation(private planes pipercubs, cessnas, and student pilots,etc.) and air taxi/commuter flights. Amost none of those planes reach contrailing altitudes.

Well, perhaps the 62 million flights each year (figure from 1997) do in fact include general aviation craft such as you describe. While these smaller craft generally cruise at altitudes of under 25,000 feet and therefore are not as likely to generate persistent contrails and facilitate contrail-enhanced aviation cirrus, this does not mean they do not produce emissions and therefore continuously add carbon dioxide, water vapor, nitrogen oxide, particulate matter including soot particles, etc. to the atmosphere. How about 40 million flights "across U.S. skies" each year? Would that be a more acceptable figure?

I can't help noticing that you seem to have completely overlooked the several excellent references I came up with (on Page 40 of this thread) in regard to the impact of aircraft emissions on atmospheric chemistry and stratospheric ozone depletion. Actually, I don't mind. The fact that you aren't interested hardly negates the validity of this material.

As for "taking a stab at your questions" - I'd have to be in the mood. I'm pretty busy and I try to use my time as efficiently as possible. Thanks anyway.

[Bonehead9]

Well, perhaps the 62 million flights each year (figure from 1997) do in fact include general aviation craft such as you describe. While these smaller craft generally cruise at altitudes of under 25,000 feet and therefore are not as likely to generate persistent contrails and facilitate contrail-enhanced aviation cirrus, this does not mean they do not produce emissions and therefore continuously add carbon dioxide, water vapor, nitrogen oxide, particulate matter including soot particles, etc. to the atmosphere. How about 40 million flights "across U.S. skies" each year? Would that be a more acceptable figure?




So what you are concerned with is the environmental impact of aviation in general. Fine. There are, in fact, many respectable scientists and researchers studying that very issue. I am talking about scientists that publish thier findings in peer reviewd journals, not on Rense.com.

I'll be willing to bet that not one of these scientists believes in chemtrails.

What do you believe in?

[halva]

Bonehead, since you are so much against childish taunting and name-calling, here is something substantial to get your teeth into. It was posted before, but I note that you only participate when the board descends to childish taunting and name-calling. You start posting then, so as to show that you disapprove of it, and that you understand it.

Are you going to ask Reynolds about the payoff he has received for debunking chemtrails? Which he never told us about finally.

Are you going to ask him why he is proposing to cut deals with his enemies - leaving people like you, who believed he was sincere - to look after yourselves?

Are you going to ask him why he offered to explain to Sore Throat why he had some a reason for debunking chemtrails other than a belief that what he was saying was true. He says he did it because of some 'payoff'.

If I were you that is something that would interest me more than any childish taunting and name calling you have seen here, which after all is not going to reflect on you as much as the revelation that you have been suckered by Reynolds.

What is the 'payoff' that Reynolds has been receiving? Ask him.



I have an announcement to make. I am now willing to discuss why I have been forced to debunk "chemtrails", and what "payoff" I have received for doing so.

However, as I give, I also hope to receive, and so am willing to make my own personal revelations if and only after certain information heretofore undiclosed is exchanged.

'Sore', answer the following questions. When they are answered by you, categorically, honestly, and completely, I will reveal publicly to everyone on this board exactly what "payoff" I receive for debunking the "chemtrails" hoax.

Surely this is a fair and equitable trade you would be willing to make for such essential information?

I will be awaiting your answers, and urge your fellow chemmies to encourage your participation.
Jay
==================


If Reynolds wants to reveal after all these years why he has felt it his duty to tell lies about chemtrails/contrails, or for what other reason other than duty he has done so, I have no objection to this.

I have heard such confessions off the record from people belonging more to the social-engineering, geo-engineering, socialist-ecologist, United Nations, globalist school than to the self-professed conservative, patriotic rule-of-law school of thought to which Reynolds claims to belong.

If Reynolds wants to confess too, why not?

But to attach conditions to the confession, to suggest that only those of some level of scientific expertise are qualified to receive the confession....this is a type of would-be'wheeling-and-dealing' I have never seen before.

I do not agree that Gaiacomm is more of a nutcase than a person who can make such a proposal.

And I would ask Reynold's deadhead followers to note that your boss is proposing a deal which, if certain terms are satisfied, will motivate him to 'come clean'.

What are you going to say and do if and when he finally does reveal to the world his reasons for having lied about chemtrails/contrails?

Will you propose similar deals?

[Bonehead9]

Halva, since you won't answer Jay's questions, will you answer one of mine?

Why do you hate America?

[foot_soldier]

"Bonehead" wrote:


So what you are concerned with is the environmental impact of aviation in general. Fine. There are, in fact, many respectable scientists and researchers studying that very issue. I am talking about scientists that publish thier findings in peer reviewd journals, not on Rense.com.

Even if I were incapable of comprehending and assimilating "peer reviewed" research findings I would nonetheless know from direct observation that something is terribly wrong with our skies.

And I don't need anyone's permission to be concerned about what it is that I am observing.

This thread is a waste of time.

[halva]

Halva, since you won't answer Jay's questions, will you answer one of mine?

Why do you hate America?

You are not America, and hate is not the right word. Now you answer my last question.

And footsoldier you are quite right about this thread being a waste of time, and any other thread we open at this forum will be similarly invaded. That is why I proposed Megasprayer as an alternative venue. But for obvious reasons I have to stay here myself.

[Bonehead9]

"Bonehead" wrote:


So what you are concerned with is the environmental impact of aviation in general. Fine. There are, in fact, many respectable scientists and researchers studying that very issue. I am talking about scientists that publish thier findings in peer reviewd journals, not on Rense.com.

Even if I were incapable of comprehending and assimilating "peer reviewed" research findings I would nonetheless know from direct observation that something is terribly wrong with our skies.

And I don't need anyone's permission to be concerned about what it is that I am observing.

This thread is a waste of time.


OK, you claim that something is wrong, yet you fail to provide any spefific, quantifiable data to back it up.

There are scientists around the world, that are studying, collecting and analysing data about the atmosphere right now. How come none of these scientists have spoke up in regard to "chemtrails?"

"And I don't need anyone's permission to be concerned about what it is that I am observing."

I am not sure what you are implying by this.


At anyrate, All I am asking you is this, is what concerns you the overall impact of aviation on the atmosphere, or do you believe thatt here is someone out there who is trying to spray you with the chem-du-jour?

[halva]

http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=Discussion&action=display&num=1080009833

[Sore Throat]

These pictures are from a variety of Internet web sites that are interested in contrails and Chemtrails. FAIR USE for Educational and Discussion purposes claimed. Right click on image and select "Properties" to obtain link...and source.




http://www.this-must-stop.com/




http://strangehaze.freeservers.com/



http://www.weatherbook.com/




http://www.chemtrailcentral.com



http://www.chemtrailcentral.com



http://www.chemtrailcentral.com



http://www.chemtrailcentral.com

Now repeat after me. "These are perfectly "normal" aircraft contrails. There is nothing to be concerned about. Experts will assure you that you've seen these all of your life. The true color of the sky is WHITE. Any blue color is an anomoly. There is no reason to adjust your set.

We control the vertical. We especially control the horizontal. Now go back to sleep.

[halva]

Defeated at home, Reynolds opens a front abroad, in a country whose language he can neither speak nor understand.

In my wildest dreams I could not have asked for a more co-operative opponent.

WH

[quote=jayreynolds]Hey, 'Professor' Demosthenis Liakopoulos,

Would you be willing to debate this group of Greek scientists regarding the chemtrail hoax?

Looks like a good list of prospects for my Greek anti-chemtrails coalition, yes?

Better hope you done your homework, dude!
Jay :lol:

[gaiacomm]

Bonehead and Jay and his merry men are defeated in this forum and the readers know this fact. Just review all 43 pages of data and you will see the trend.

Its too bad that Jay cannot accept defeat.

Jay I sent you a photo of Karen to your PM....tell me how old is she in that photo?

Bonehead everytime you post, your ip address is snapshot and of course with proper trace you are not so secret.
But there are laws that protect your privacy and will be respected.

So I suggest you find another place to play!
As for Jay, well I think we should start writing Karen his wife and ask her to give us an opinion on chemtrails.


Jay, Got Milk?

[jayreynolds]

By not answering my question, you told me what I needed to know.

You are an old time chemtrail cultist, one whom I've known for years.

Like I told you before, it's too late for you to shift over to contrails.

You blew your credibility on the "chemtrail" hoax about 4000 posts ago.

Yes, for you, especially, it's a waste of time.

piranhaconda :lol:

[halva]

Relax Jay. In the mental home we will be able to find you an attendant who understands what you mean by 'shifting over to contrails'.

[jayreynolds]

In his last post, 'Sore' wrote:
"Now repeat after me.
"These are perfectly "normal" aircraft contrails.
There is nothing to be concerned about.
Experts will assure you that you've seen these all of your life.
The true color of the sky is WHITE.
Any blue color is an anomoly.
There is no reason to adjust your set.
We control the vertical.
We especially control the horizontal.
Now go back to sleep."

Man, you are wacked. Must be staying up too late, because you are punch-drunk and I see you did some preaching to the choir, spamming the same pictures at chemtrailcentral as you did over here. Funny thing, though, the second-to-last photo comes from Bernhard Muehr, one of the most famous weather photographers in the world.

You link to this "reference" page:

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/cgi-bin/db-search.cgi?template=img-detail&dbname=img&key2=147&action=searchdbdisplay

"Cirrus Fibratus Vertebratus 2

Location: Karlsruhe, Baden-Wuerttemberg Germany
Date: 04/09/1999
Note: Cirrus in the upper picture section and rain clouds of smaller and medium size in the rest. The appearance of the Cirrus is fibrous (fibratus) and indicates additionally still another "fishbone-like " structure (vertebratus). Here thin and fine threadlike cloud items point right-angle outward from the closer long-drawn-out central area.
Author: Bernhard Muehr
Category: Reference
Attributes:
Contact: chemtrailcentral@chemtrailcentral.com
Link: http://www.wolkenatlas.de/wbilder.htm
============================

here is the original source of the image:
http://www.wolkenatlas.de/wolken/wo12503.htm

here is the original text(machine translated):

"High cloudy appearance (Cirrus) in the upper picture part and rain clouds of smaller and medium size in the remainder. The appearance of the Cirrus is fibrous (fibratus) and exhibits additionally still another "fish-fishbone-like" structure (vertebratus). Here thin and fine threadlike cloud elements point right-angled outward from the closer long-drawn-out central range. It exclusively concerns ice crystals, [size]which are shipped by the wind. Possibly this vertebratus form owes its emergence to an airplane, from whose vapor trail it may have come out in the course of the time. A wedge of the Azores high extended over the Biskaya until Central Europe and provided for relatively weak hoist in all heights. Over South Germany the wedge became weather effective by dropping air movement and permitted only some smaller Cumuli, which formed with the daily heating up. Right above in the picture marks a small tore up looking wolkenform a Cumulus fractus, while toward the north medium high layer cloudy appearance is to be constituted. © copyright: Bernhard Muehr"
See, the problem is this, 'Sore', that image was posted by the owner of chemtrailcentral.com, Mark Steadham.

[size=18]EVEN MARK STEADHAM POSTED IT AS A REFERENCE FOR ORDINARY CONTRAILS!

This shows once again, 'Sore Throat' is a wacked out "chemtrail" cultist willing to lie about and plagiarize copyrighted photos with no hint of a conscience.

Also interesting to note that a discussion is currently underway at chemtrailcentral.com in which yet another pilot has offered free use of an airplane and a "chemtrail" cultist laboratory work on samples, yet 'Sore' refuses to participate in the discussion, and halva mocks it:

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000117-7.html

These examples underscore the validity that both those individuals care not about actually doing any research, but are soley concerned with assimilating more bodies into their collective delusion.

[jayreynolds]

Don't worry. My meaning is clear to it's intended recipient.
'Foot soldier' at least had the guts to admit I was correct about the 62 million figure being bunk. If only 'foot soldier' would blow the lid on the "chemtrails" hoax and become honest, the air would clear and progress could be made.

[halva]

Actually, and this has nothing to do with footsoldier, whom I know only as an agreeable and intelligent poster on this forum, I do not feel inclined to condemn socialists, ecologists, Greenpeace cadre etc. etc. who equivocate and hide behind their index fingers on the subject of geoengineering.

Just as I do not feel inclined to condemn European Greens' support for NATO's war of aggression in the Balkans.

Politics unfolds with its own logic. If the 'silent majority' in society are forced to revalue their assumption that they can rely on 'idealists' to act as society's conscience, thereby absolving them of the need to act themselves, I don't mind that.

[jayreynolds]

halva wrote;
"I do not feel inclined to condemn socialists, ecologists, Greenpeace cadre etc. etc. who equivocate and hide behind their index fingers on the subject of geoengineering."

Yes, and you "do not feel inclined to comment" when 'Sore' misattributes and violates copyright of Bernhard Mueher's photo as something other than what he says it to be.

Mueher is one of the most famous weather photographers in the world.

By not "feel[ing] inclined to comment" on such an act of deception, halva gives his implied assent, and is therefore complicit in the deception.

See, halva knows in his heart of hearts exactly what he is doing. He knows that "chemtrails" are simply ordinary contrails. along with "sore" "foot soldier", and all the regular old-time "chemtrail" believers. They are liars one and all, they "Make a practice of it", it is their stock-in-trade, their modus operandi, their habit.

This is a very sick set of people.

[jayreynolds]

'Sore' posted the following:

"The great glaring fact about the weather is that our atmosphere is being chemically reconditioned right before our eyes, in broad daylight, and each and every one of our weather forecasters is resolutely lying about it."

How hypocritical of him to lie by posting a photo by Bernhard Mueher
and not tell you where it came from, to not tell you that the
photographer, Bernhard Mueher, and Mark Steadham of chemtrailcentral.com who hosted the version he linked to, know that the photo is of ordinary and explained contrails and cirrus clouds.

These are a sick bunch of people. Isn't any "chemtrail" cultist willing to do the right thing and speak out against such deception?

[gaiacomm]

Jay this is your friend with issues:

By Claire Gilbert, Ph.D.

HALF MOON BAY, California, September 12, 1997 (ENS) - Jet planes leave behind vapor condensation trails called "contrails," which often stay in the sky for many hours and spread out to become icy cirrus clouds. They are not as innocent as they appear.

Contrails are similar to the white steam we exhale in cold weather. Until recently, almost nothing was known about how clouds affect climate, but current research indicates the problem of clouds is an important one for global climate change. A recent statement released by the National Science Foundation (NSF) explains that the effect of the wispy plumes from jet exhausts is "an emerging question."

There are 62 million commercial and military flights across U.S. skies each year. "An endless queue of aircraft produce persistent contrails in their wakes, seen or unseen, night and day, coming and going from airport to airport across the planet," says Jim Scanlon, a science writer.

An NSF funded study by Steven Ackerman of the University of Milwaukee, Wisconsin finds that jet contrails indeed influence regional climate. He says, "It's been estimated that in certain heavy air traffic corridors, cloud cover has increased by as much as 20 percent."

Patrick Minnis of NASA's Langly Research Center, in the June 13 issue of Science News, says it is hard to research these vapor trails, but cloud cover is up about 5% in the U.S. since jet travel mushroomed several decades ago. Most of the new clouds may be in the form of cirrus that contrails evolve into, says Minnis.

Satellite observations miss a lot of detail, but imaging large areas every 15 minutes with the advanced Geostationary Operational Environmental Satellite has detected extremely long lived contrails.

Ackerman's research is considering whether the contrails are changing the chemistry in the upper atmosphere and how great is the effect. Jet motors expel invisible oxides of nitrogen, carbon (dioxide and monoxide), soot, and unburned hydrocarbon fuel, in addition to the water vapor which becomes the white trails we see. Jet planes pollute just as autos do, but the location of jet pollution is more serious in terms of impact on atmosphere and climate.

On the ground and while climbing, the effect of jet exhaust is similar to that of other vehicles. Once at cruising altitude, either slightly below the stratosphere or in it, the temperature is very low. The air is also very dry and relatively much cleaner than at the level on the ground where we live. The waste gases in aircraft exhaust have very complicated effects that are different from the effects of vehicle exhaust. Exactly what these effects are has not yet been accounted for in theories of climate change.

It appears that high clouds originating from contrails spread to cover tens of thousands of square kilometers. They trap heat.

Warming a part of the atmosphere that is normally much colder may break down the structure of it. This effect is more pronounced where a large number of planes fly fixed routes. Also, water from jet exhausts is being introduced in massive and ever increasing amounts at the boundary of the stratosphere.

The gases emitted from the jet aircraft flying in the stratosphere reduce the natural ozone and have other effects, according to Scanlon, and allow energetic ultraviolet radiation to penetrate lower where it warms the air and may even reach the surface of the earth.

Many climate scientists are now asking, "Can clouds from contrails contribute toward changing the local, regional, or perhaps global climate?"

Ulrich Schumann of the German Aerospace Research Organization (DRL) in Oherpfaffenhofen thinks the global effect is small. However, from the standpoint of scientific research, the effects of contrails confuse finding a distinctive pattern for other human influences on climate.

The thousands of aircraft traversing the North Atlantic Flight Corridor, fly an estimated 44% of the time in the stratosphere. Civil aircraft fly in the stratosphere from 17% to 25% of the time. This flight time will increase as the fleet grows and newer generations of sub-sonic jets, being introduced right now, will enter service and fly higher and longer. Some estimates predict the total flight time of civil aircraft in the stratosphere could double by 2020.

It will be very hard to sell the public on the idea that jet planes can cause serious climate change. There is a trillion dollar industry involved which provides millions of high paying, glamorous jobs and the magic carpets which carry us across continents in a few drowsy hours. Who wants to think that jet flying might be highly dangerous to life on earth?

{Please send any comments to Claire Gilbert at claire@blazingtattles.com}

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

It is quite clear that Jay and his group are just spinning. Just ignore their posts and they will go away.

Or start a new thread with defined subject matter and still ignore them.

They feed on reactions not responses so its time to let them go!

I know its hard because they are entertaining but its time to move on.

Jay needs to spend more time with his wife Karen and not chasing after snowballs in the wind!

Jay ignores me because he is afraid of me and others like me. Jay also knows that nutcases are popular and usually can slip thru the cracks.

Jay, Got Milk?

[gaiacomm]

Would someone send an email to this nice lady and ask her of her relationship with Jay and any other chemtrail question!


Please send any comments to Claire Gilbert at claire@blazingtattles.com}

[gaiacomm]

Contact Arianna

Arianna Online
1158 26th Street
P.O. Box 426
Santa Monica, CA 90403

arianna@ariannaonline.com

[gaiacomm]

Biography

Arianna Huffington
Columnist and author

What prompted the transformation in Arianna's political thinking?

Arianna Huffington is a nationally syndicated columnist and author of ten books. Originally from Greece, she moved to England when she was sixteen and graduated from Cambridge University with an M.A. in Economics. At twenty-one she became President of the famed debating society, the Cambridge Union.

In 2003, she ran for governor as an Independent in California's recall election. Her populist grassroots campaign was widely praised for putting the media spotlight on the corrupting influence of special interest money on American politics.

Her first book, The Female Woman, on the changing roles of women, was published in 1974 by Random House and translated into eleven languages. In 1978 she published After Reason, a book on political leadership and the intersection of politics and culture. Her biography of Maria Callas: The Woman Behind the Legend, published in 1981 quickly became an international bestseller. Her fourth book, The Gods of Greece, celebrated the power of myths as guides to forgotten dimensions of life and ourselves, and has been republished by Atlantic Monthly Press, with paintings by Francoise Gilot.

Her biography of Pablo Picasso, Picasso: Creator and Destroyer, published in 1988, was a major international bestseller, translated into sixteen languages. The book was reissued by Avon Books to coincide with the release of a feature film based on the book, produced by Merchant-Ivory for Warner Bros. and starring Anthony Hopkins as Picasso. In 1994, she published The Fourth Instinct on the longing for meaning in a secular world. Her seventh book, Greetings From the Lincoln Bedroom, a book of political satire, was published in 1998 by Crown. How To Overthrow The Government, on the corruption of our political system and the need for reform, was published in 2000 by Regan Books (Harper Collins).

Her New York Times bestseller, "Pigs at the Trough: How Corporate Greed and Political Corruption are Undermining America", was published in 2003. Her tenth book, "Fanatics & Fools, The Game Plan for Winning Back America", will be published by Miramax Books in April 2004.

During Campaign '96, Arianna teamed up with Al Franken to provide political coverage for Comedy Central during the Republican and Democratic conventions, as well as on election night. She and Franken also appeared in a point-counterpoint segment, Strange Bedfellows, for Politically Incorrect.

She has made guest appearances on numerous other shows, including Larry King Live, Oprah, Nightline, Inside Politics, Charlie Rose, Crossfire, Hardball, Good Morning America, the Today Show, The McLaughlin Group, and The O'Reilly Factor.

She serves on several boards that promote community solutions to social problems, including A Place Called Home that works with at-risk children in South Central Los Angeles. She also serves on the Board of Trustees for the Archer School for Girls, the advisory board of the Council on American Politics at George Washington University, and the board of the Reform Institute that works on campaign and election reform issues.

Arianna Huffington lives in Los Angeles with her two daughters.

[gaiacomm]

http://www.ariannaonline.com/events/index.php

[gaiacomm]

The Pentagon Sounds The Alarm On Global Warming; Why Isn't President Bush Listening?

February 25, 2004 [ Printer-friendly version ]


If he's smart enough to use it, the Democratic nominee may have just been handed the perfect cudgel with which to pummel President Bush -- and cripple Karl Rove's attempts to position his man as America's go-to guy on national security.

The weapon in question is a new report on the grave and gathering threat posed by global climate change -- and the potentially cataclysmic consequences of the Bush administration's obstinately ignorant approach to global warming.

And the thing that makes the report so frightening -- and the prospective bludgeon so crushing -- is that it wasn't authored by some crunchy granola think tank or a band of tree-hugging EarthFirsters, but by the U.S. Department of Defense.

That's right, the Pentagon -- Rummy's playpen. In fact, the report, which was slipped to the press earlier this month after being kept under wraps by the White House for four months, was commissioned by Andrew Marshall, a legendary DOD figure, nicknamed "Yoda" for his sagacity. As head of the Pentagon's secretive Office of Net Assessment, Marshall has offered national security assessments to every president since Richard Nixon.

And this latest assessment pegs climate change as a far greater danger than even the scourge of international terrorism.

Dryly entitled "An Abrupt Climate Change Scenario and Its Implications for United States National Security," the report reads like the plot summary of the upcoming Dennis Quaid doomsday flick, "The Day After Tomorrow," in which global warming pushes the planet to the edge of anarchy and annihilation.

But this scenario is not science fiction. According to the Pentagon study, the question is not if abrupt climate change will happen, but when. It could be, according to the report's authors, as soon as the next three years, with the most devastating fallout potentially occurring between 2010 and 2020.

At that point, we could find ourselves in the midst of a new ice age in which mega-droughts devastate the world's food supply, drinkable water becomes a luxury worth going nuclear over, 400 million people are forced to migrate from uninhabitable areas, and riots and wars for survival become commonplace.

I believe that would qualify as a Red Alert in Tom Ridge's color-coded book.

But the Bush White House remains unwilling to address -- or even acknowledge -- this looming peril. Instead, the oiligarchs in the administration continue to fiddle while the atmosphere starts to burn, routinely ignoring scientific evidence and international consensus, and casting a questioning eye on the very idea, let alone the fact, of global warming. It's a stance that has warmed the hearts -- globally, no doubt -- of the Bush Pioneers and Rangers in the oil and energy industry, making them feel very generous indeed.

As last week's release of a scathing letter signed by 60 prominent scientists -- including 20 Nobel laureates and former science advisers to both Republican and Democratic administrations -- makes clear, the Bush administration has made an art out of ignoring science. Particularly when it comes to the issue of global warming.

Who can forget the president's famous CO2 flip-flop, or the way the White House tried to force so many changes to a section of an EPA report dealing with climate change that Christie Todd Whitman finally threw up her hands and decided to eliminate the section on global warming altogether?

But blinding the voters with pseudo-science may no longer be an option now that the Pentagon report threatens to put the issue front and center -- and reframe it as a key component of our national security debate.

This is particularly good news for John Kerry, should he prevail, given his long history of leading the charge in the Senate to cut down on greenhouse gases by raising fuel efficiency standards for cars and trucks. The president, of course, has done just the opposite, giving Kyoto the kiss-off, and pushing through unconscionable loopholes that reward gas-guzzling monster SUVs and allow carmakers to effectively reduce fuel economy for millions of the vehicles they sell.

One of the defining traits of leadership is the ability to see not just the crisis right in front of you, but the one lurking around the next corner. Bush's steadfast refusal to act upon the potential desolation that awaits us if we do nothing to confront global warming makes him a major national security liability.

Everyone in the Bush administration acted shocked and surprised when 9/11 happened -- even though there had been red flags aplenty warning of al-Qaida's evil intentions. Well, let there be no surprise this time. We have all been warned.

While the Pentagon is sounding the alarm on an environmental Armageddon, the president is covering his eyes, crossing his fingers, and whistling about the "national importance" of a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.

The Democratic nominee needs to remind the White House -- and the American people: It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature.

[liakopoulos]

POOR JAY, YOUR ZIONIST FRIENDS DID NOT TEACH YOU WELL. YOU ARE PLAYING THE GAME OF THE DARK SIDE OF ZIONISM JAY. BUT YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE MAIN QUESTION YET. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE DOING? ARE YOU DOING IT FOR FUN OR FOR MONEY?

[liakopoulos]

Seems to me, that gaiacomm and I, hit somthing. Are you in pain boys?

[liakopoulos]

Jay Raynolds, you are avoiding to answer. ARE YOU DOING THIS FOR FUN ,OR FOR MONEY? Remember, it would be BLOOD money, if we are right and you are wrong. Answer the questions. Is it CON-RAYNOLDS OR RAYNOLDS-CON?

[liakopoulos]

HEY BONEHEAD9, IS THERE ANYTHING BESIDES BONES IN YOUR HEAD? IS IT TRUE THAT YOU ARE STILL IN HIGHSCHOOL?

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Liakopoulos, I can positively state that so far I haven't realized any monetary gain from "chemtrails". Where can I buy your book and how much do you charge for it? If it's available in Thessaloniki, what bookstore carries it?

shalom,
Jay

[jayreynolds]

I have been asked to explain what is shown in 'Sore's image:

http://com1.runboard.com/b13thcentury.fthenewdebunkatorium.t51

that's right,
I'm bad.
:lol:

[liakopoulos]

Dear Jay, I salute your honesty. You admited that you ARE a jew after all. Like I said before ,I have many friends who are jews. I must say though that they do not support Ariel Sarron's policy on the Palestinian issue. And something else Jay, answer these simple questions. If there are no chemtrails and there are only contrails, why do they begin and then stop over populated areas. Why is there a beginning and an end of a simple everyday contrail? Why don't the exhaust gasses of jet engines freeze everywhere where the temperature is under -50C? Simple questions. Do you have scientific or at least logical answers? I am dead serious about these questions. Please no jokes this time.

[airtankerpilot]

Dear Jay, I salute your honesty. You admited that you ARE a jew after all. Like I said before ,I have many friends who are jews. I must say though that they do not support Ariel Sarron's policy on the Palestinian issue. And something else Jay, answer these simple questions. If there are no chemtrails and there are only contrails, why do they begin and then stop over populated areas. Why is there a beginning and an end of a simple everyday contrail? Why don't the exhaust gasses of jet engines freeze everywhere where the temperature is under -50C? Simple questions. Do you have scientific or at least logical answers? I am dead serious about these questions. Please no jokes this time.

What the hell does someones religion, have to do with the lack of evidence of this vast giant spraying conspiracy?

As for atmopheric factors, Sore Throat already covered that with his nasa paper he posted, and that I referenced.

Altitude, temperature, humidity, engine operating parameters, engine type, etc.

Water does not always freeze at 0 C either, but that is not evidence of a government conspiracy.

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

It is quite clear that Jay and his group are just spinning. Just ignore their posts and they will go away.

Or start a new thread with defined subject matter and still ignore them.

They feed on reactions not responses so its time to let them go!

I know its hard because they are entertaining but its time to move on.

Jay needs to spend more time with his wife Karen and not chasing after snowballs in the wind!

Jay ignores me because he is afraid of me and others like me. Jay also knows that nutcases are popular and usually can slip thru the cracks.

Jay, Got Milk?

[liakopoulos]

TO AIRTANKERPILOT: THAT IS SOMETHING BETWEEN JAY AND ME (THE JEW THING) .CONCERNING YOUR REFERENCES THEY DO NOT REPEAT NOT COVER THE ISSUE AT ALL. WE HAVE WITNESSED AIRPLANES TRAVELLING AT THE SAME HIGHT AT THE SAME TIME LIVING DIFFERENT TYPES OF TRAILS BEHIND THEM. ONE BEING DESMISSED IN A FEW SECS AND THE OTHER REMAINING IN THE SKY PLUS EXPANDING ALL OVER.

[halva]

Gaiacomm, starting a new thread and ignoring are non-solutions.

Generally speaking, though, I think the fewer questions asked by our side, the better.

[gaiacomm]

Gaiacomm, starting a new thread and ignoring are non-solutions.

Generally speaking, though, I think the fewer questions asked by our
side, the better.


halva:

The reason for the new thread is that this one is over the top with too many fragmented remarks and other insane comments.

The professional approach would be to start a new thread on this forum that debates without prejudice the Chemtrail saga.

The Jay's and company should respect that and if they must comment, keep it civil and respectful.

This thread has become a shooting gallery with no prize in site.
Just sticks in the air and nothing to hit!

So, Halva you decide to start a new thread and define the rules of engagement!

[liakopoulos]

EXHAUST EMISSIONS WHEN FROZEN START DESCENDING TO LOWER ATMOSPHERIC LEVELS WHERE THE HIGHER TEMPERATURES DEFROST THEM. THUS THEY DISSAPEAR WITHIN 20 to 35 SECONDS. CHEMTRAILS DO NOT DISSAPEAR. INSTEAD THEY EXPAND INCREASING THEIR VOLUME. WE CAN ALSO OBSERVE THAT THIS EXPANSION TAKES PLACE ON A CERTAIN LEVEL GIVING FLAT CLOUDS. THE COMBINATION OF MANY CHEMTRAILS AT THE SAME HIGHT GIVES A BIG FLAT CLOUD, USUALLY AT 30000 FEET. THIS CAN BE USED AS A REFLECTING SURFACE. WHAT DO THEY WANT TO REFLECT, IF THESE SURFACES ARE INDEED ARTIFICIAL? THE SUN HEAT COMING FROM SPACE, OR ARTIFICIAL EMISSIONS FROM THE GROUND? HEY JAY, I KNOW I GOT YOU IN DEEP WATERS NOW!

[liakopoulos]

I SEE THAT JAY AND THE "OTHERS" DO NOT COMMENT SIMPLE FACTS. THEY ONLY DIRECT US TO VARIOUS ARTICLES. I WOULD APRECIATE A FEW SIMPLE AND STRAIGHT ANSWERS. IF THEY CAN NOT DO THAT THEN WE CAN ALL AGREE TO START A NEW THREAD TRYING TO ENTERTAIN EACH OTHER TALKING ABOUT THE FBI, THE CIA AND THE MEN IN GREY. HEY JAY I CAN COME WITH A COUPLE OF GOOD JOKES ABOUT JEWS.

[liakopoulos]

WHAT DO YOU THINK GAIACOMM?

[airtankerpilot]

TO AIRTANKERPILOT: THAT IS SOMETHING BETWEEN JAY AND ME (THE JEW THING) .CONCERNING YOUR REFERENCES THEY DO NOT REPEAT NOT COVER THE ISSUE AT ALL. WE HAVE WITNESSED AIRPLANES TRAVELLING AT THE SAME HIGHT AT THE SAME TIME LIVING DIFFERENT TYPES OF TRAILS BEHIND THEM. ONE BEING DESMISSED IN A FEW SECS AND THE OTHER REMAINING IN THE SKY PLUS EXPANDING ALL OVER.

You have no idea if they were at the same altitude or not. You are only using eyeball perception, and you have zero way of knowing if they were at same altitude, unless you were at an air traffic control facility, observing the altitude encoding information from the transponder, from that specific radar console.

You are just guessing the altitudes, and assuming they were at the same level.

[liakopoulos]

LET ME GIVE YOU A SIMPLE METHOD. TAKE A MINIDV CAMERA, AND USE THE MAX ZOOM ON THE AIRLINER. SO, SAME TYPE OF AIRCRAFT, COVERING THE SAME SPACE ON THE SCREEN GIVES YOU AN APROXIMATE BUT GOOD GUESS.BESIDES THE AIRCORIDORS DO NOT GIVE TO PILOTS SO MUCH FREEDOM OVER THE SAME SPOT.

[airtankerpilot]

LET ME GIVE YOU A SIMPLE METHOD. TAKE A MINIDV CAMERA, AND USE THE MAX ZOOM ON THE AIRLINER. SO, SAME TYPE OF AIRCRAFT, COVERING THE SAME SPACE ON THE SCREEN GIVES YOU AN APROXIMATE BUT GOOD GUESS.BESIDES THE AIRCORIDORS DO NOT GIVE TO PILOTS SO MUCH FREEDOM OVER THE SAME SPOT.

Like you just said, it is a GUESS. It is APPROXIMATE, which does you no good. You need to have a specific altitude, if you are going to say with certainty that the aircraft were at the same altitude. And your method does nothing to give you an altitude.

You cant just say "they look like the same altitude" because from the ground, you cant tell whether it is 28, 30, 32, 36, etc thousand feet. A 777 at 40,000 will look bigger than a 737 at 28,000. A 767 at 34,000 will look bigger than a 757 below it at 30,000.

[jayreynolds]

I(JR) will answer questions from Liakopoulos(DL).

DL- "And something else Jay, answer these simple questions. If there are no chemtrails and there are only contrails, why do they begin and then stop over populated areas."

JR- I think you are implying that "chemtrails" persist only over populated areas. Most chemmies claim that only "chemtrails" persist, and that ordinary contrails do not. That is demostrably false. I do know that contrails, persistent, and not, do in fact persist, or not, over oceans and land practically worldwide. Many many satellite photos graphically demonstrate this, it is undeniable, and I can show proof of this dating back decades.

DL- "Why is there a beginning and an end of a simple everyday contrail?"

JR- Contrail persistence depends on the relative humidity w/respect to ice
of the atmosphere in which it forms. For that matter, ordinary cirrus cloud persistence also depends on the moisture level of the air in which they exist. If the air is dry enough, the ice crystals forming the contrail, or the cirrus cloud, will sublimate, and the contrail, or cirrus cloud, will disappear.
When you see a contrail which dissipates shortly behind the aircraft, it is a a sign that the air is too dry to support contrail persistence.

DL-"Why don't the exhaust gasses of jet engines freeze everywhere where the temperature is under -50C?"

JR- At -50C, contrail formation is a certainty. The Schmidt-Applemann criterion gives a nominal temperature for contrail formation of around
-40F/C. This information was known fifty years ago. The claims that contrail formation requires -76F is false. Documents produced during World war II describe the temperature of contrail formation. It is undeniable fact.

DL-"THE COMBINATION OF MANY CHEMTRAILS AT THE SAME HIGHT GIVES A BIG FLAT CLOUD, USUALLY AT 30000 FEET. THIS CAN BE USED AS A REFLECTING SURFACE. WHAT DO THEY WANT TO REFLECT, IF THESE SURFACES ARE INDEED ARTIFICIAL? THE SUN HEAT COMING FROM SPACE, OR ARTIFICIAL EMISSIONS FROM THE GROUND?"

JR- What you describe is what happens when ordinary contrails persist and grow under conditions of ice supersaturation high enough allowing the
contrails to not only persist, but to also grow by the Bergeron Process in which ice crystals already present from the contrails accumulate moisture from the air and become a cirrus cloud deck. No conspiracy theory necessary.

DL-"I WOULD APRECIATE A FEW SIMPLE AND STRAIGHT ANSWERS."

JR- You are getting them.

DL-"LET ME GIVE YOU A SIMPLE METHOD. TAKE A MINIDV CAMERA, AND USE THE MAX ZOOM ON THE AIRLINER. SO, SAME TYPE OF AIRCRAFT, COVERING THE SAME SPACE ON THE SCREEN GIVES YOU AN APROXIMATE BUT GOOD GUESS.BESIDES THE AIRCORIDORS DO NOT GIVE TO PILOTS SO MUCH FREEDOM OVER THE SAME SPOT."

JR- This method is far too inaccurate to determine altitude difference between two aircraft. First, the lens capability of digital cameras, especially at full zoom, is not accurate enough for such a task. Second, unless the two aircraft are side-by-side and directly overhead, horizontal displacement comes into play, and an aircraft slightly closer or farther away might appear the same size.

Air corridors are in place to direct aircraft from point to point under control of Air Traffic controllers. Practically all modern airliners also have satellite navigation capability. In an effort to decrease airway congestion, and reduce costs, many flights ask for, and receive, clearance to fly off airways and "Direct to Destination". You can expect this practice to increase as Europe has undertaken to build it's own satellite based GPS service called "Galileo".

My best suggestion to you, if you are willing to withstand being found incorrect about "chemtrails", would be to ask your patron Karatzaferis to schedule you a visit to Athens air traffic control on a day when you believe
"Jewish chemtrails" are in the air. You will find ordinary airliners are perfectly capable of making what you now believe are "chemtrails".

Now, answer my questions:

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. What is your claim about the purpose of "chemtrails, what are they for?

11. Will I see you in Synagogue on Shabbat?

[foot_soldier]

"jayreynolds" wrote:

I wouldn't say "considerable" alterations in atmospheric chemistry. I don't think ordinary contrails have a large effect on atmospheric chemistry at all. If you, or anyone else, has evidence quantifying such a thing, I'd be happy to read it.

Did you bother to look at this material?

NASA's ongoing Atmospheric Effects of Aviation Project has measured emissions from the engines of several commercial and research aircraft. Jet engine emissions have been shown to affect the concentrations of atmospheric water vapor and aerosols, and they may affect how clouds form and the concentrations of atmospheric ozone. Few actual measurements of their effects have been made, however.

In the spring of 1996, the Subsonic Aircraft Contrail and Cloud Effects Special Study (SUCCESS) focused on subsonic aircraft contrails and the impact of the aerosols in those contrails on cirrus clouds and atmospheric chemistry. Researchers have determined that aircraft contrails can prolong the presence of high altitude cirrus clouds while also decreasing the size of the ice crystals that make up the clouds. Studies like SUCCESS and AEAP will be ongoing as scientists continue to try to understand how aerosols affect our atmosphere and climate.

August 1996
Atmospheric Aerosols: What Are They and Why Are They So Important?
http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Aerosols.html

=====================================

Leading European researchers have concluded that aircraft emissions are small in comparison to all other man-made emissions, but could be significantly affecting atmospheric ozone and cloud cover with possible implications for climate change. These are the conclusions of a comprehensive review of the current state of knowledge carried out at the initiative of the European Commission and published today in the scientific journal "Atmospheric Environment".

The authors of the review, entitled "European Scientific Assessment of the Atmospheric Effects of Aircraft Emissions", which relies heavily on the results of successful European and national research programmes, conclude that:

1) The 20-50% increase in the NOx abundance caused by aircraft traffic in the vicinity of their cruising altitude (10-12 km) has produced a 4-8% increase in the ozone concentration of the upper troposphere (maximum value during summertime) where ozone is a strong greenhouse gas. The warming effect associated with this ozone increase is comparable to the warming effect of CO2 emitted by aircraft (about 2-3% of all anthropogenic CO2 emissions).

May 1998
Rapid increase of aircraft emissions could affect atmospheric ozone and climate in the future
http://europa.eu.int/comm/research/press/1998/pr2805en.html

=====================================

Aircraft emit gases and particles directly into the upper troposphere and lower stratosphere where they have an impact on atmospheric composition. These gases and particles alter the concentration of atmospheric greenhouse gases, including carbon dioxide CO2), ozone (O3), and methane (CH4); trigger formation of condensation trails (contrails); and may increase cirrus cloudiness—all of which contribute to climate change.

April 1999
Aviation and the Global Atmosphere
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/004.htm

=====================================

Gas phase chemistry and heterogeneous reactions on contrail and cirrus particles

Aerosols and ice particles contribute to changes in ozone and other air constituents. NOx emissions by subsonic aircraft lead to net ozone production in the tropopause region. However, within contrails, halogen components may get activated and NOx and hydroxyl radicals may get reduced, causing less ozone production, and ozone depletion is possible at least locally within contrails. In the lowermost stratosphere, ozone destruction is caused by heterogeneous chlorine activation on contrail ice particles, whereas in the upper troposphere ozone production is compensated by heterogeneous reduction of OH radicals (S. Meilinger et al.).

November 2000
Report on the European Workshop “Aviation, Aerosols, Contrails and Cirrus Clouds” (A2C3),
Seeheim near Frankfurt/Main, July 10-12, 2000
http://www.aero-net.org/a2c3/a2c3sum.htm

=====================================

System for assessing Aviation’s Global Emissions (SAGE)

SAGE is a modeling system to forecast aircraft operations and estimate aircraft emissions - carbon dioxide (CO2), carbon monoxide (CO), nitrogen oxides (NOx), hydrocarbons (HC) – as a function of altitude and geographic location, with potential functionality to compute the costs and benefits of aviation emission mitigation options.

Schedule: Version 1 model development 2001-2002.

Office of Environment and Energy
The Federal Aviation Administration
http://www.aee.faa.gov/emissions/global/sage.htm

###

"jayreynolds" wrote:

As far as "beginning to alter regional climate patterns", I understand that the study done shows an increase in diurnal temperature range during the three days subsequent to 9/11. The authors attributed a portion of the change in DTR to lack of persistent contrails. Interesting study likely to be unrepeatable, and statistically small. Though the authors seem to have done their best to screen out any confounding variables, three days do not a climate make.

With more than 62 million commercial and military flights weaving trails of jet exhaust across the skies above the United States each year, there's an emerging question on the radar screens of some climatologists.

And the short answer, according to Steven Ackerman, a professor of atmospheric science, is that jet exhaust plumes -- commonly referred to as contrails -- can indeed influence regional climate.

Addressing scientists at a meeting of the American Geophysical Union, Ackerman detailed the results of a year-long study of contrails and their fate in the upper atmosphere.

"Contrails are of concern in climate studies because increased jet traffic may result in an increase in cloud cover," said Ackerman. "It's been estimated that in certain heavy air-traffic corridors, cloud cover has increased by as much as 20 percent."

=====================================

As for the "statistical smallness" of the post-9/11 contrail study, you don't get approval for work of that magnitude, particularly under such sensitive circumstances and on such short notice, unless you have 1) a pretty good reputation for credible and reproducible work and 2) a pretty good idea of what it is you're attempting to validate.

[foot_soldier]

January 7, 2004
BBC News
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3370211.stm

Blue-sky thinking about climate
By Alex Kirby
BBC News Online environment correspondent

Scientists are studying possible ways of using engineering to help the world to adapt to increasing climate change.

A conference in Cambridge, UK, has been convened to consider possible options while ignoring "political correctness".

The organisers say many options appear at the moment very unlikely to work, with some even appearing to be "crazy", but insist that they must be evaluated.

They say engineering will probably have to play its part in cutting greenhouse gases by the huge amounts necessary.

The conference organisers are the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, based at the University of East Anglia, and the Cambridge-MIT Institute.

No optimists

The meeting, on 8 and 9 January, is entitled Macro-engineering Options For Climate Change Management And Mitigation.

One speaker is Professor James Lovelock, begetter of the Gaia Hypothesis, which holds that the Earth functions as a single organism which maintains the conditions necessary for its survival.

The organisers say reducing global greenhouse gas emissions by around 50%, which may be needed to avoid excessive climate change, will be very difficult, and could require even larger cuts by developed countries.

They say: "Many people feel it is very unlikely that such reductions can be achieved just by improving energy efficiency and reducing carbon intensity by using renewable sources of energy."

So they see a need to evaluate possible macro-engineering options before any can be seriously considered as candidates, even if they prove to be only "an insurance".

So the conference is committed to considering all approaches "without preconceptions" and disregarding "potential pressures in relation to political correctness".

It will look at four main sets of possibilities:

1) "sequestering" (storing) carbon dioxide, for example in the oceans, by removing it from the air for storage, or by improved ways of locking it up in forests

2) "insolation management" - modifying the albedo (reflectivity) of clouds and other surfaces to affect the amount of the Sun's energy reaching the Earth

3) climate design, for example by long-term management of carbon for photosynthesis, or by glaciation control

4)impacts reduction, which includes stabilising ocean currents by river deviation, and providing large-scale migration corridors for wildlife

CONTINUED...

[airtankerpilot]

But Foot Soldier, what you are talking about is NOT chemtrails. While those are still pertinent environmental issues, it different that the conspiracy we are debating.

Chemtrails is a giant and deliberate sprayting conspiracy involving hundreds of aircraft, intentionally doing this..Not just normal pollution.

[gaiacomm]

I still say that all should ignore Jay and his group. All they do is feed on reactions from their predictable questions and answers.

They are like a fly buzzing around a picnic table that just left a dead carcass and laid eggs to be maggots to later land on your food.

So just move the picnic table inside! The flies will not get in!

Just look at pages and pages of data some good some not.

Jay is not an authority on Chemtrails or Contrails. It is a hobby for him to play with. Jay designs and builds toilets for ships! And is a farmer that grows food in bad ground.

He has a website that is a clear indication of his personality. Just look at the design and layout.

Jay has found a niche section of the internet where he thinks he can rule as long as he pays his internet access bill each month.

Jay is a cyberjunkie who depends on the internet to get him out of the house and away from his family.

Jay will follow you like a bad virus. But you can rid the virus by giving it the "HAND".

Jay, Got milk?

[airtankerpilot]

How do you chemtrail believers reconcile your stated desire for a debate, with your actions of banning opponents, wanting them banned, trying to move the discussion to "megasprayer" so you can ban people, and just this whole head in the sand philosophy "la la la la I cant hear you!!"

I for one do not shy away from a debate, and nor have I ever wanted, or would I ever try to have an opponent banned. Frankly, I want as many people as possible to hear about this kooky chemtrail cult, because so many of gotten such a big laugh. Chemtrails is now a running joke on about every aviation message board.

I would challenge a chemtrail believer to look at anything I have posted and to find a fact they cant point out is wrong.

[jayreynolds]

halva wrote:
"Defeated at home, Reynolds opens a front abroad, in a country whose language he can neither speak nor understand.

In my wildest dreams I could not have asked for a more co-operative opponent."

Hey, Wayne, you should see our new offices up here in the FYROM!
:shock:

[gaiacomm]

I still say that all should ignore Jay and his group. All they do is feed on reactions from their predictable questions and answers.

They are like a fly buzzing around a picnic table that just left a dead carcass and laid eggs to be maggots to later land on your food.

So just move the picnic table inside! The flies will not get in!

Just look at pages and pages of data some good some not.

Jay is not an authority on Chemtrails or Contrails. It is a hobby for him to play with. Jay designs and builds toilets for ships! And is a farmer that grows food in bad ground.

He has a website that is a clear indication of his personality. Just look at the design and layout.

Jay has found a niche section of the internet where he thinks he can rule as long as he pays his internet access bill each month.

Jay is a cyberjunkie who depends on the internet to get him out of the house and away from his family.

Jay will follow you like a bad virus. But you can rid the virus by giving it the "HAND".

Jay, Got milk?

[jayreynolds]

'foot soldier' wrote:
""jayreynolds" wrote:

I wouldn't say "considerable" alterations in atmospheric chemistry. I don't think ordinary contrails have a large effect on atmospheric chemistry at all. If you, or anyone else, has evidence quantifying such a thing, I'd be happy to read it.

Did you bother to look at this material?"

Yes, though I read much of it years ago, I reread it. The word considerable isn't used. Airplane exhaust pollutes just like car exhaust does, or power plants that run your computer lights, heat and air conditioner. You do have those things, correct, dear? Or do you live a primitive lifestyle in your sister's basement and ride your bike to the solar-powered internet cafe to post? Be sure to eat raw foods, wouldn't want to generate any pollution that might create ozone, of course you are completely innocent of that, right?

Never in a million years!

I suppose I had been so busy fighting the chemtrails hoax I hadn't run the stoichiometry on some of those emissions. Some cool stuff, NOx.

It was interesting to me that OH emissions in the upper troposphere destroy climate forcing methane, which helps cancel out the climate forcing ozone created in the upper troposphere by the jet's NOx emissions!

Sounds like a great eco-movie title-
"Evil Jets- Emissions in Balance"

Hey, I thought this forum ws a waste of your time. Piranhaconda got to ye maat?

[gaiacomm]

still say that all should ignore Jay and his group. All they do is feed on reactions from their predictable questions and answers.

They are like a fly buzzing around a picnic table that just left a dead carcass and laid eggs to be maggots to later land on your food.

So just move the picnic table inside! The flies will not get in!

Just look at pages and pages of data some good some not.

Jay is not an authority on Chemtrails or Contrails. It is a hobby for him to play with. Jay designs and builds toilets for ships! And is a farmer that grows food in bad ground.

He has a website that is a clear indication of his personality. Just look at the design and layout.

Jay has found a niche section of the internet where he thinks he can rule as long as he pays his internet access bill each month.

Jay is a cyberjunkie who depends on the internet to get him out of the house and away from his family.

Jay will follow you like a bad virus. But you can rid the virus by giving it the "HAND".

Jay, Got milk?

[Sore Throat]

...the content of which THEY can't actually address.


http://www.zmag.org/ZMagSite/Mar2004/johansen0304.html


Global Warming as a Weapon of Mass Destruction

We are carbonizing the oceans with dire consequences

By Bruce E. Johansen

Lord Peter Levene, board chair of Lloyd’s of London, says that terrorism is not the insurance industry’s biggest worry, despite the fact that his company was the largest single insurer of the World Trade Center. Levene says that Lloyd’s, like other large international insurance companies, is bracing for an increase in weather disasters related to global warming. Likewise, following his assignment as chief weapons inspector in Iraq, Hans Blix said: “To me the question of the environment is more ominous than that of peace and war. We will have regional conflicts and use of force, but world conflicts I do not believe will happen any longer. But the environment, that is a creeping danger. I’m more worried about global warming than I am of any major military conflict.” Sir John Houghton, co-chair of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, agrees. “Global warming is already upon us,” he said. “The impacts of global warming are such that that I have no hesitation in describing it as a weapon of mass destruction.” So what do they know that George W. Bush doesn’t?

Weather is the story; climate is the plot. We are carbonizing the oceans, with dire implications for life in them. As the 21st century dawned, carbon-dioxide levels were rising in the oceans more rapidly than any time since the age of dinosaurs. In a report published September 25, 2003 in Nature, oceanographers Ken Caldeira and Michael E. Wickett wrote: “We find that oceanic absorption of CO2 from fossil fuels may result in larger pH changes over the next several centuries than any inferred in the geological record of the past 300 million years, with the possible exception of those resulting from rare, extreme events such as bolide impacts or catastrophic methane hydrate degassing.” (A “bolide” is a large extraterrestrial body, usually at least a half mile in diameter, perhaps much larger, that impacts the earth at a speed roughly equal to that of a bullet in flight.)

Rising carbon dioxide levels in the oceans could threaten the health of many marine organisms, beginning with the plankton at the base of the food chain. “If we continue down the path we are going, we will produce changes greater than any experienced in the past 300 million years—with the possible exception of rare, extreme events such as comet impacts,” Caldeira, of the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, warned. Since carbon dioxide levels began to be measured on a systemic basis worldwide in 1958, its concentration in the atmosphere has risen 17 percent.

Until now, some climate experts have asserted that the oceans would help to control the rise in carbon dioxide by acting as a filter. However, Caldeira and Michael Wickett said that carbon dioxide that is removed from the atmosphere enters the oceans as carbonic acid, gradually altering the acidity of ocean water. According to their studies, the change over the last century already matches the magnitude of the change that occurred in the entire 10,000 years preceding the industrial age. Caldeira pointed to acid rain from industrial emissions as a possible precursor of changes in the oceans. “Most ocean life resides near the surface, where the greatest change would be expected to come, but deep ocean life may prove to be even more sensitive to changes,” Caldeira said.

Marine plankton and other organisms whose skeletons or shells contain calcium carbonate, which is dissolved by acid solutions, may be particularly vulnerable. Coral reefs—already suffering from pollution, rising ocean temperatures, and other stresses—are comprised almost entirely of calcium carbonate. “It’s difficult to predict what will happen because we haven’t really studied the range of impacts,” Caldeira said. “But we can say that if we continue business as usual, we are going to see some significant changes in the acidity of the world’s oceans.”

Along the same line, warming seas also are devastating plankton, eroding the ocean’s food chain. Global warming is contributing to an “ecological meltdown,” with devastating implications for fisheries and wildlife. The “meltdown” begins at the base of the food chain, as increasing sea temperatures kill plankton. Fish stocks and sea-bird populations are declining as well.

Scientists at the Sir Alistair Hardy Foundation for Ocean Science in Plymouth, England, which has been monitoring plankton growth in the North Sea for more than 70 years, have said that an unprecedented warming of the North Sea has driven plankton hundreds of miles to the north. They have been replaced by smaller, warm-water species that are less nutritious. Over-fishing of cod and other species has played a role, but fish stocks have not recovered after cuts in fishing quotas.

The number of salmon returning to British waters are now half of what they were 20 years ago, and a decline in plankton populations is a major factor. “A regime shift has taken place and the whole ecology of the North Sea has changed quite dramatically,” said Dr. Chris Reid, the foundation’s director. “We are seeing a collapse in the system as we knew it. Catches of salmon and cod are already down and we are getting smaller fish. We are seeing visual evidence of climate change on a large-scale ecosystem. We are likely to see even greater warming, with temperatures becoming more like those off the Atlantic coast of Spain or further south, bringing a complete change of ecology.”

Research by the British Royal Society for the Protection of Birds has established that seabird colonies off the Yorkshire coast and the Shetlands this year suffered their worst breeding season since records began, with many abandoning nesting sites. Sea-bird populations are falling in large part because sand eels are declining. The sand eels feed on plankton. This survey concentrated on kittiwakes, one breed of sea birds, but other species that feed on the eels, including puffins and razorbills, also have been seriously affected.

Sand eels also comprise a third to half of the North Sea catch, by weight. They have heretofore been caught in huge quantities by Danish factory ships, which turn them into food pellets for pigs and fish. During the summer of 2003, the Danish fleet caught only 300,000 English tons of its 950,000-ton quota, a record low.


Beware the Methane Burp

Yesterday’s SUV exhaust does not become today’s rising temperature, not immediately. Through an intricate feedback loop, fossil fuel burned today is expressed in warming 30 to 50 years later. Today we are seeing temperatures related to fossil-fuel emissions from roughly 1960, when fossil fuel consumption was much lower. Today’s fossil-fuel emissions will be expressed in the atmosphere about 2040.

Increasing levels of greenhouse gases near the surface hold heat there, impeding radiation into the upper layers of the atmosphere. As the surface warms, the stratosphere cools. The chemical reactions that consume the ozone that protects us from ultraviolet radiation accelerate as the air chills. Thus, the area of depleted ozone over Antarctica remains at near-record size respite the fact that chloroflourocarbons (CFCs), the culprits on ozone depletion, have now been banned for more than 15 years.


In his book, When Life Nearly Died: The Greatest Mass Extinction of All Time (London: Thames and Hudson, 2003), Michael J. Benton describes a mass extinction at the end of the Permian period, about 250 million years ago, when at least 90 percent of life on Earth died. The extinction probably was initiated by massive volcanic eruptions in Siberia. According to present theories, the eruptions injected massive amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, causing a number of biotic feedbacks that accelerated global warming of about 6 degrees Celsius. In a chapter titled “What Caused the Biggest Catastrophe of all Time?” Benton sketches how the warming (which was accompanied by anoxia) may have fed upon itself: “The end-Permian runaway greenhouse may have been simple. Release of carbon dioxide from the eruption of the Siberian Traps [volcanoes] led to a rise in global temperatures of 6 degrees Celsius or so. Cool polar regions became warm and frozen tundra became unfrozen. The melting might have penetrated to the frozen gas hydrate reservoirs located around the polar oceans, and massive volumes of methane may have burst to the surface of the oceans in huge bubbles.

This further input of carbon into the atmosphere caused more warming, which could have melted further gas hydrate reservoirs. So the process went on, running faster and faster. The natural systems that normally reduce carbon dioxide levels could not operate, and eventually the system spiraled out of control, with the biggest crash in the history of life.”

The oxygen-starved aftermath of this immense global belch of methane left land animals gasping for breath and caused the Earth’s largest mass extinction, suggests new research. Greg Retallack, an expert in ancient soils at the University of Oregon, has speculated that the same methane “belch” was of such a magnitude that it caused mass extinction via oxygen starvation of land animals. Bob Berner of Yale University has calculated that a cascade of effects on wetlands and coral reefs may have reduced oxygen levels in the atmosphere from 35 percent to just 12 percent over 20,000 years. Marine life also may have suffocated in the oxygen-poor water.

Events 250 million years ago are of more than academic interest today because the 6 degrees Celsius that Benton estimates triggered these events is roughly the same temperature rise forecast for the Earth by the IPCC by the end of this century.

In Abrupt Climate Change (2002), Richard B. Alley wrote that climate may change rapidly (as much as 16 degrees Celsius within a decade or two) “when gradual causes push the Earth system across a threshold. Just as the slowly increasing pressure of a finger eventually flips a switch and turns on a light....” Half the North Atlantic warming since the last ice age was achieved, writes Alley, within one decade. The temperature record for Greenland, according to Alley’s research, more resembles a jagged row of very sharp teeth than a gradual passage from one epoch to another. According to Alley: “Model projections of global warming find increased global precipitation, increased variability in precipitation, and summertime drying in many continental interiors, including “grain belt” regions. Such changes might produce more floods and more droughts.” Human emissions of greenhouse gases may provide enough of a change to trigger such a rapid change.

By 2000, the hydrological cycle seemed to be changing more quickly than temperatures. Warmer air holds more moisture, making rain (and sometimes snow) more intense. Warmer air also increases evaporation, paradoxically intensifying drought at the same time. With sustained warming, usually wet places generally seem to be receiving more rain than before; dry places often receive less rain and become subject to more persistent drought. In many places, drought or deluge is becoming the weather regime du jour. Atmospheric moisture increases more rapidly than temperature; over the United States and Europe, atmospheric moisture increased 10 to 20 percent from 1980 to 2000. “That’s why you see the impact of global warming mostly in intense storms and flooding like we have seen in Europe,” Kevin Trenberth, a scientist with National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) told London’s Financial Times.

As if on cue to support climate models, the summer of 2002 featured a number of climatic extremes, especially regarding precipitation. Excessive rain deluged Europe and Asia, swamping cities and villages and killing at least 2,000 people, while drought and heat scorched the United States’ west and eastern cities. Climate skeptics argued that weather is always variable, but other observers noted that extremes seemed to be more frequent than before. A year later, following episodic floods during the summer of 2002, Europe experienced some of it highest (and longest-sustained) temperatures in recorded history, causing (by various estimates) between 19,000 and 35,000 excess deaths. As much as 80 percent of the grain crop died in eastern Germany, site of some of 2002’s worst floods.

“In a hotter climate, your chances of being caught with either too much or too little are higher,” said Dr. John M. Wallace, a professor of atmospheric sciences at the University of Washington. Government scientists have measured a rise in downpour-style storms in the United States during the last century. “Over the past 50 years, said Wallace, winter precipitation in the Sierra Nevada has been falling more and more in the form of rain, increasing flood risks, instead of as snow, which supplies farmers and taps alike as it melts in the spring.”

The World Water Council report compiled statistics indicating that between 1971 and 1995 floods affected more than 1.5 billion people worldwide, or 100 million people a year. An estimated 318,000 were killed and more than 18 million left homeless. The economic costs of these disasters rose to an estimated $300 billion in the 1990s from about $35 billion in the 1960s. Global warming is causing changes in weather patterns as growing populations migrate to vulnerable areas, increasing costs of individual weather events, said William Cosgrove, vice president of the World Water Council. Scientists cited by the World Water Council expect that climate changes during the 21st century will lead to shorter and more intense rainy seasons in some areas, as well as longer, more intense droughts in others, endangering some crops and species and causing a drop in global food production.

Examples abound of increasing extremes in precipitation. November 2002, December 2002, and January 2003 were Minneapolis-St. Paul’s driest in recorded history. These followed the wettest June through October there in more than 100 years. In December 2002, Omaha recorded its first month with no measurable precipitation. In March 2003, having endured its driest year in recorded history during 2002, Denver, Colorado recorded 30 inches of snow in one storm. Some areas of the drought-parched Front Range received as much as ten feet of snow in the same storm. After that one storm, drought conditions returned.

Roughly half the United States was under serious drought conditions during the summer of 2002. The drought was occasionally punctuated by torrential rains. On September 13, 2002, for example, drought-stricken Denver was inundated by floods from a fast-moving thunderstorm that caused widespread flooding. Similar events took place south of Salt Lake City. Ten days later, a flooding cloudburst inundated similarly drought-stricken Atlanta. On September 10, 2002, six months’ worth of rain fell in a few hours in the Gard, Herault, and Vaucluse departments in the south of France, drowning at least 20 people. In the village of Sommieres, near Nimes, a usually-tiny stream exploded to a width of 300 meters, cutting off road traffic.

The suburbs of Chicago received 8 to 13 inches of rain the night of August 12, 2002, in a summer that included devastating floods in Prague and Dresden, as well as parts of southern China. India had a variable monsoon—some areas flooded, while others went dry. Severe summer floods in Europe during 2002 may be an indicator of an emerging pattern, according to Jens H. and Ole B. Christensen, who modeled precipitation patterns in Europe under warming conditions of a type that may be prominent in the area by 2070 to 2100. “Our results,” they wrote in Nature, “indicate that episodes of severe flooding may become more frequent, despite a general trend toward drier summer conditions.” The trend toward drought or deluge will intensify as warming distorts the hydrological cycle. A warming atmosphere will contain more water vapor, which will provide “further potential for latent-heat release during the buildup of low-pressure systems, thereby possibly both intensifying the systems and making more water available for precipitation,” Christensen and Christensen wrote.

Annual mean precipitation amounts over the United States have been increasing at two to five percent per decade, according to atmospheric scientists Ken Trenberth and colleagues (writing in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society), with “most of the increase related to temperature and hence in atmospheric water-holding capacity…. There is clear evidence that rainfall rates have changed in the United States…. The prospect may be for fewer but more intense rainfall—or snowfall—events.” Individual storms may be further enhanced by latent heat release, which supplies even more moisture during individual storms.

Generally, higher temperatures enhance evaporation, with some compensatory cooling when water is available. Increased evaporation also intensifies drought, which, to some degree, compounds itself as moisture is depleted, leading “to increased risk of heat waves and wildfires in association with such droughts; because once the soil moisture is depleted then all the heating goes into raising temperatures and wilting plants.”

In mountain areas, wrote Trenberth, “The winter snowpack forms a vital resource, not only for skiers, but also as a freshwater resource in the spring and summer as the snow melts. Yet warming makes for a shorter snow season with more precipitation falling as rain rather than snow, earlier snowmelt of the snow that does exist, and greater evaporation and ablation. These factors all contribute to diminished snowpack. In the summer of 2002, in the western parts of the United States, exceptionally low snowpack and subsequent low soil moisture likely contributed substantially to the widespread intense drought because of the importance of recycling [in the hydrological cycle]. Could this be a sign of the future?”

The insurance companies, whose business is making book on the future, are watching the weather—and they are worried.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce E. Johansen, Frederick W. Kayser professor of Journalism at the University of Nebraska at Omaha, is author of the Global Warming Desk Reference (Greenwood Press, 2002).

[airtankerpilot]

...the content of which THEY can't actually address.



Are we supposed to addresss every off topic diversion you chemmies post on here?

Why cant you all stick to chemtrails, which is what bought all of you here.

I dont bring wildland firefighting topics and demand that chemmies address them.

And yes Gaiacomm, some of us do have experience in areas vital to the chemtrail hoax...

[Bonehead9]

EXHAUST EMISSIONS WHEN FROZEN START DESCENDING TO LOWER ATMOSPHERIC LEVELS WHERE THE HIGHER TEMPERATURES DEFROST THEM. THUS THEY DISSAPEAR WITHIN 20 to 35 SECONDS. CHEMTRAILS DO NOT DISSAPEAR. INSTEAD THEY EXPAND INCREASING THEIR VOLUME. WE CAN ALSO OBSERVE THAT THIS EXPANSION TAKES PLACE ON A CERTAIN LEVEL GIVING FLAT CLOUDS. THE COMBINATION OF MANY CHEMTRAILS AT THE SAME HIGHT GIVES A BIG FLAT CLOUD, USUALLY AT 30000 FEET. THIS CAN BE USED AS A REFLECTING SURFACE. WHAT DO THEY WANT TO REFLECT, IF THESE SURFACES ARE INDEED ARTIFICIAL? THE SUN HEAT COMING FROM SPACE, OR ARTIFICIAL EMISSIONS FROM THE GROUND? HEY JAY, I KNOW I GOT YOU IN DEEP WATERS NOW!

Liakopofraud, you have just proven yourself to be an idiot, a fraud and a liar. There is no way anyone with a college degree in physics would make such an idiotic statement.

What do you say, Halva, do you still believe Liakonfraud is really a physicist? Do you still stand behind him? Do you agree with his statements above?

There are so many things wrong with that statement that I hardly know where to start.


EXHAUST EMISSIONS WHEN FROZEN

we are talking about water here

START DESCENDING TO LOWER ATMOSPHERIC LEVELS

actually they don’t right away. They actually rise after they leave the plane, the engine exhaust is still hotter than the ambient air. BTW, liafraud, do you know what a Standard Atmosphere (http://www.usatoday.com/weather/wstdatmo.htm) is? Do you know what the temperature at 30,000 feet is in Celsius in a standard atmosphere? Furthermore the water vapor releases latent heat when it freezes. For clear examples of this effect check out this (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/332946/M/) picture on airliners.net.

WHERE THE HIGHER TEMPERATURES DEFROST THEM THUS THEY DISSAPEAR WITHIN 20 to 35 SECONDS

lets go back to the Standard Atmosphere. The temperature does not get above freezing until around 8,000 feet. If a contrail is formed at 30,000 feet, and the ice crystals thaw 30 seconds later when they reach 8,000 feet, that means that they cover 22,000 feet in 30 seconds, or about 400 miles per hour. Even more troubling is the assumption that once the ice crystals melt you will no longer be able to see them. Its as if Liafraud has forgotten what low altitude clouds are made of. Maybe he thinks they are cotton candy.

CHEMTRAILS DO NOT DISSAPEAR. INSTEAD THEY EXPAND INCREASING THEIR VOLUME.

Liafraud, have you ever studied the concept of super saturation? Perhaps you can explain it to me.

WE CAN ALSO OBSERVE THAT THIS EXPANSION TAKES PLACE ON A CERTAIN LEVEL GIVING FLAT CLOUDS. THE COMBINATION OF MANY CHEMTRAILS AT THE SAME HIGHT GIVES A BIG FLAT CLOUD, USUALLY AT 30000 FEET.

And of course all cloud decks are just a figment of a meteorologist’s imagination, right? Cirrus clouds don’t really exist; they were invented to explain chemtrails, right?

WHAT DO THEY WANT TO REFLECT, IF THESE SURFACES ARE INDEED ARTIFICIAL? THE SUN HEAT COMING FROM SPACE, OR ARTIFICIAL EMISSIONS FROM THE GROUND?

Well, you are the self-proclaimed physicist, why don’t you tell us? Is it because you haven’t got a clue as to what you are talking about do you?

HEY JAY, I KNOW I GOT YOU IN DEEP WATERS NOW!

No it is you who is in deep doo-doo. You have opened you mouth and planted your foot right in it, you fake.

Are you, by any chance, related to Jimmy The Greek?

[Sore Throat]

airtankerpilot


"Are we supposed to addresss every off topic diversion you chemmies post on here?"

No, I'm certain the relationships involved are far too difficult for you to comprehend.

[halva]

I believe Reynolds' remark about new offices in Fyrom and this is why I counsel Liakopoulos to shut up about Jews and start concentrating.

Gaiacomm there is no point in starting a new thread or expecting Reynolds and company either to go away or to abide by any agreement.

[airtankerpilot]

airtankerpilot


"Are we supposed to addresss every off topic diversion you chemmies post on here?"

No, I'm certian the relationships involved are far too difficult for you to comprehend.

No, I certainly understand, and you keep bringing up new things to substitute for your lack of any evidence. How you keep personally keep trying to tie in global warming and environmentalism to prove chemtrails exist.

When pressed to show chemtrail evidence, what relevance it is to say "Oh well disprove global warming" "or disprove that airplanes pollute"

I am sure you could tie anything you want into chemtrails if you really want to. Still will not substitute for the lack of any evidence and science.

However the articles you reference do quite a good job at disproving this chemtrail sillyness. That NASA article was rather good at explaining contrail formation.

[Sore Throat]

Apparently you didn't bother to look at the baseline statistics from the Minnis article.

If you did, you would understand the documented frequency of persistent contrial occurance across the country, at least as it was in 1993-94.

How do you account for the increased frequency of persistent contrails?

Don't forget we're talking atmospheric CHEMISTRY and PHYSICS...the actual reasons attributed to contrail persistence.

If you want to state that it's simply a matter of increasing number of aircraft, then you would have to admit that these additional flights are changing atmosphere chemistry.

Do you want to admit that this is what is occurring airtanker pilot?

[liakopoulos]

TO BONEHEAD9: LIKE I SAID BEFORE ,YOUR SO CALLED ANSWERS PROOVE THAT YOUR SO CALLED KNOWLEDGE IS PARTIAL. LOOK AT YOUR OWN STATISTIC TABLES. YOUR THOUGHTS ARE CHAOTIC BELONGING TO A 10 YEARS OLD BOY. BY THE WAY IF YOU HAVE FOUND A WAY TO FLY AIRCRAFT ON STEAM PLEASE DO LET US KNOW. TO HALVA: I LOVE POOLING JAY'S LEG TO JAY: OTHER ZIONISTS GOT IN FYROM BEFORE YOUR BOSS

[liakopoulos]

TO AIRTANKERPILOT: I WAS CLEARLY REFERING TO THE SAME KIND OF AIRCRAFT BEING PROJECTED AT THE SAME SIZE ON THE CAMERA SCREEN AT MAXIMUM ZOOM. THEN TAKE BOTH PICTURES AND COMPARE THEM ON THE COMPUTER SCREEN. FAR TOO SIMPLE, EVEN BONEHEAD9 COULD HAVE DONE THAT. SINCE THE IMAGE SIZES MATCH.........

[halva]

To Liakopoulos, given the events of the last week in Kossovo and given that we are going to be dependent this year for our security in Greece on the same organization that showed how skilful it is in protecting Serbs in Kossovo, I would suggest that it might be appropriate to stop pulling Reynolds' leg. It seems to me more like pulling something else, not Reynolds's but your own.

[liakopoulos]

DEAR HALVA, LIVING IN GREECE YOU SHOULD HAVE LEARNED BY NOW ,THAT THERE IS A POINT , GREEKS CAN NOT GO BEYOND. MILLIONS OF GREEKS DIED THE LAST 12000 YEARS DEFENDING "FREEDOM" IN ALL ITS EXPRESSIONS. WHO AM I TO CHANGE THAT ? OK I AGREE THAT SOME THINGS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH CHEMTRAILS, BUT I AM NOT THE ONE WHO STARTED IT. FOR MY PART OF IT ,I APOLOGISE. WHO IS NEXT?

[halva]

Don't expect any apologies from Reynolds or any of his hangers-on here.

[jayreynolds]

And so, Liakopoulos finally came out of his closet, belched a few questions that showed his ignorance
- STUUUUPID.

And so, faced with the fact that her 62 million flights per year was a fantasy, Deborah did what she always does, copy/paste the exact same
set of articles she did before
- BOOOOORING.

And so, forced to babble-on about milk and past lives as King of Judea,
gaicon is asked by halva to keep quiet
-SHUT-UUUUUUUP!.

And so, as with Liakopoulos, halva begs him to stop answering the ten questions
-SORRY, TOO LATE, DAMAGE IS DONE.

And so, his pictures revealed to be plagiarized photos of contrails and the twisted vortices explained, 'Sore' tries desperately to change the subject-
-QUICK!!- LOOK OVER HERE!!- NO, NOT THAT WAY- OVER HERE!!!!

And so, how does it feel, halva, to see your house of cards crumbling worse than a ratty Acropolis? To know for a fact that your great hope, Liakopoulos looks positively silly when confronted by even common knowledge? To find 'Sore' and Deborah drop the subjet of "Chemtrails"
as quick as it gets debunked? What kind of allies you have! What kind of hoax do you have! You are beaten at the first charge!

This is what happens when you come out of the ban-box, boy.
This is the real world where you face the guns of truth arrayed against
your pitiful paper fortress of lies.
You know this, halva.
Deal with it.

[jayreynolds]

You never answered my question. Where can someone buy your book in Thessaloniki, and how many Drachmas does one have to pay Liakopoulos to see his pitiful screed?


DEAR HALVA, LIVING IN GREECE YOU SHOULD HAVE LEARNED BY NOW ,THAT THERE IS A POINT , GREEKS CAN NOT GO BEYOND. MILLIONS OF GREEKS DIED THE LAST 12000 YEARS DEFENDING "FREEDOM" IN ALL ITS EXPRESSIONS. WHO AM I TO CHANGE THAT ? OK I AGREE THAT SOME THINGS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH CHEMTRAILS, BUT I AM NOT THE ONE WHO STARTED IT. FOR MY PART OF IT ,I APOLOGISE. WHO IS NEXT?

Ah, yes, Greece.
"THE LAST COMMUNIST NATION IN EUROPE"
How proud you must be of 'red' Hellas!
HA!

[halva]

I don't see what my reminder to Liakopoulos of the security situation in our neighbourhood has to do with any questions of truth or falsehood.

By the way, prices in Greece are in euros.

[liakopoulos]

IT IS OBVIOUS THAT CIVILISED MANNERS DO NOT APPLY TO PEOPLE LIKE RAYNOLDS . ALL YOUR CHILDISH QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN ANSWERED. NONE OF MY QUESTIONS HAS BEEN ANSWERED YET. YOUR SCIENTIFIC INCOMPITANCE IS OBVIOUS. HEY JAY, YOU SHOULD DECIDE WHETHER WE ARE COMUNISTS OR FASISTS. LET ME TELL YOU WHAT ,WE ARE THE ONES WHO KICKED YOUR ASHES.

[liakopoulos]

TO ALL READERS: RAYNOLDS IS THE ONE WHO DOES NOT LET ,EVEN A SEMI-SCIENTIFIC DIALOGUE TO TAKE PLACE. WHEN THE CONVERSATION STARTS GETTING SERIOUS HE RUINS EVERYTHING . THAT IS TO EASY FOR HIM, SINCE IT IS EASIER TO BE DESTRACTIVE THAN CONSTRACTIVE.

[jayreynolds]

Hey, 'Sore'!

Does this photo say 'Chemtrails'?
http://www.weatherbook.com/recentphotosOctober2003.html

"October 25, 2003: Jet contrails run parallel across over Oakton, VA. Photo Credit: Kevin Ambrose"

Ah-Ah-Ah! Copyright infringement again!

OH, NO, THEY SPRAYED WASHINGTON, DC, ALL THE GOVERNMENT WILL BE KILLED!

http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&&csz=Oakton+VA+&Get%A0Map=Get+Map

What a complete ass you are, 'Sore'. The image is just of contrails. Most likely the planes that left them were F-16s flying cover for Washington, DC.

[liakopoulos]

JAY RAYNOLDS, ARE YOU RELATED TO MOSHAD? ANSWER AT LEAST THIS QUESTION. A SIMPLE YES OR NO WOULD DO. YOU ALSO FAILED TO ANSWER THE QUESTION: ARE YOU DOING THIS FOR FUN OR FOR MONEY. YOU SAID THAT YOU CAN NOT SEE HOW MONEY CAN BE RELATED TO CONTRAILS. HOW ABOUT CHEMTRAILS JAAAAHAAAAY?

[jayreynolds]

liakopoulos, I answered your questions categorically. haven't you looked up the 'Schmidt-Applemann Criterion', or the 'Bergeron Process'?

I urge you to print out my answers and take them to any qualified atmospheric scientist. They will all agree that I am correct.

Now, you asked me if I got money for debunking "chemtrails". I told you, NO.

I asked if you got money for your alleged book about "Chemtrails", how much it costs, and where it can be bought. Your failure to respond leads me to believe your friend halva was lying when he said you had written a book, or are unwilling to admit you make money from the "chemtrails" hoax.

DID YOU WRITE AND DO YO SELL A BOOK ON CHEMTRAILS?

IF SO, YOU PROFIT FROM THE "CHEMTRAIL" HOAX, NOT ME!

[jayreynolds]

This is my response to Liakopoulos, copied from page 46, and a repeat of the questions I've been asking for nearly fifty pages, left unanswered by the "chemtrail" cultists.
Jay :lol:

==========================
I(JR) will answer questions from Liakopoulos(DL).

DL- "And something else Jay, answer these simple questions. If there are no chemtrails and there are only contrails, why do they begin and then stop over populated areas."

JR- I think you are implying that "chemtrails" persist only over populated areas. Most chemmies claim that only "chemtrails" persist, and that ordinary contrails do not. That is demostrably false. I do know that contrails, persistent, and not, do in fact persist, or not, over oceans and land practically worldwide. Many many satellite photos graphically demonstrate this, it is undeniable, and I can show proof of this dating back decades.

DL- "Why is there a beginning and an end of a simple everyday contrail?"

JR- Contrail persistence depends on the relative humidity w/respect to ice
of the atmosphere in which it forms. For that matter, ordinary cirrus cloud persistence also depends on the moisture level of the air in which they exist. If the air is dry enough, the ice crystals forming the contrail, or the cirrus cloud, will sublimate, and the contrail, or cirrus cloud, will disappear.
When you see a contrail which dissipates shortly behind the aircraft, it is a a sign that the air is too dry to support contrail persistence.

DL-"Why don't the exhaust gasses of jet engines freeze everywhere where the temperature is under -50C?"

JR- At -50C, contrail formation is a certainty. The Schmidt-Applemann criterion gives a nominal temperature for contrail formation of around
-40F/C. This information was known fifty years ago. The claims that contrail formation requires -76F is false. Documents produced during World war II describe the temperature of contrail formation. It is undeniable fact.

DL-"THE COMBINATION OF MANY CHEMTRAILS AT THE SAME HIGHT GIVES A BIG FLAT CLOUD, USUALLY AT 30000 FEET. THIS CAN BE USED AS A REFLECTING SURFACE. WHAT DO THEY WANT TO REFLECT, IF THESE SURFACES ARE INDEED ARTIFICIAL? THE SUN HEAT COMING FROM SPACE, OR ARTIFICIAL EMISSIONS FROM THE GROUND?"

JR- What you describe is what happens when ordinary contrails persist and grow under conditions of ice supersaturation high enough allowing the
contrails to not only persist, but to also grow by the Bergeron Process in which ice crystals already present from the contrails accumulate moisture from the air and become a cirrus cloud deck. No conspiracy theory necessary.

DL-"I WOULD APRECIATE A FEW SIMPLE AND STRAIGHT ANSWERS."

JR- You are getting them.

DL-"LET ME GIVE YOU A SIMPLE METHOD. TAKE A MINIDV CAMERA, AND USE THE MAX ZOOM ON THE AIRLINER. SO, SAME TYPE OF AIRCRAFT, COVERING THE SAME SPACE ON THE SCREEN GIVES YOU AN APROXIMATE BUT GOOD GUESS.BESIDES THE AIRCORIDORS DO NOT GIVE TO PILOTS SO MUCH FREEDOM OVER THE SAME SPOT."

JR- This method is far too inaccurate to determine altitude difference between two aircraft. First, the lens capability of digital cameras, especially at full zoom, is not accurate enough for such a task. Second, unless the two aircraft are side-by-side and directly overhead, horizontal displacement comes into play, and an aircraft slightly closer or farther away might appear the same size.

Air corridors are in place to direct aircraft from point to point under control of Air Traffic controllers. Practically all modern airliners also have satellite navigation capability. In an effort to decrease airway congestion, and reduce costs, many flights ask for, and receive, clearance to fly off airways and "Direct to Destination". You can expect this practice to increase as Europe has undertaken to build it's own satellite based GPS service called "Galileo".

My best suggestion to you, if you are willing to withstand being found incorrect about "chemtrails", would be to ask your patron Karatzaferis to schedule you a visit to Athens air traffic control on a day when you believe
"Jewish chemtrails" are in the air. You will find ordinary airliners are perfectly capable of making what you now believe are "chemtrails".

Now, answer my questions:

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. What is your claim about the purpose of "chemtrails, what are they for?

11. Will I see you in Synagogue on Shabbat?

[foot_soldier]

1) "sequestering" (storing) carbon dioxide, for example in the oceans, by removing it from the air for storage, or by improved ways of locking it up in forests

2) "insolation management" - modifying the albedo (reflectivity) of clouds and other surfaces to affect the amount of the Sun's energy reaching the Earth


Keywords:

emissions carbon sequestration ocean terrestrial

insolation solar climate warming aerosol cloud radiative

[gaiacomm]

I still say that all should ignore Jay and his group. All they do is feed on reactions from their predictable questions and answers.

They are like a fly buzzing around a picnic table that just left a dead carcass and laid eggs to be maggots to later land on your food.

So just move the picnic table inside! The flies will not get in!

Just look at pages and pages of data some good some not.

Jay is not an authority on Chemtrails or Contrails. It is a hobby for him to play with. Jay designs and builds toilets for ships! And is a farmer that grows food in bad ground.

He has a website that is a clear indication of his personality. Just look at the design and layout.

Jay has found a niche section of the internet where he thinks he can rule as long as he pays his internet access bill each month.

Jay is a cyberjunkie who depends on the internet to get him out of the house and away from his family.

Jay will follow you like a bad virus. But you can rid the virus by giving it the "HAND".

Jay, Got milk?

[liakopoulos]

COME ON JAY .YOU CAN DO BETTER THAN THAT. DO YOU CALL THESE ANSWERS. PLEASE MAN ,BE SERIOUS IF NOT SCIENTIFIC! WHY DON'T YOU LISTEN TO GAIACOMM...... YOU KNOW THE MILK STUFF ETC ETC...

[Bonehead9]

TO BONEHEAD9: LIKE I SAID BEFORE ,YOUR SO CALLED ANSWERS PROOVE THAT YOUR SO CALLED KNOWLEDGE IS PARTIAL. LOOK AT YOUR OWN STATISTIC TABLES.

Oh, please enlighten me, oh great smelly one, what, pray tell is wrong with the standard atmosphere table? What is the ambient temperature at 30,000 feet?


YOUR THOUGHTS ARE CHAOTIC BELONGING TO A 10 YEARS OLD BOY.

Uhhh, yeah, ok. Right. I guess that means that you like me. (we all know how you old Greeks with smelly feet like 10 year old boys, wink, wink) Unfortunately, I don’t go that way. Maybe halva can help hook you up.



BY THE WAY IF YOU HAVE FOUND A WAY TO FLY AIRCRAFT ON STEAM PLEASE DO LET US KNOW.

You really are an idiot aren’t you?

What do you think the principle products of hydrocarbon (jet fuel) combustion are? Did you fail Chemistry as well as Physics?

To refresh your failing memory, when you burn jet fuel you get CO2 (carbon dioxide) and H2O (water) and a lot of heat. What is water when it is heated to several hundred degrees C ? That is right, steam. So in a very real sense, modern jet planes are in fact steam powered, since they are powered by engines that expel large amounts of hot gasses, including steam.

Fake, fraud, liar, racist, goof, idiot, con man, take your pick, they all apply to you.


BTW, I am on to you, Gaiacon/liakopoulos. ;)

[jayreynolds]

'Sore' wrote:
"Apparently you didn't bother to look at the baseline statistics from the Minnis article. If you did, you would understand the documented frequency of persistent contrial occurance across the country, at least as it was in 1993-94. How do you account for the increased frequency of persistent contrails?"

If 'Sore' claims there is an increased frequency of persistent contrails(NOTE- HE STOPPED TALKING ABOUT "CHEMTRAILS"???????)
'Sore' needs to show documentary proof of his claim.

Don't hold your breath. He said he would do so, FIVE YEARS AGO.
he has never lifted a finger to even attempt documentation of "increased
persistent contrails"

He also has yet to document anything regarding the "chemtrail" hoax, except his own abject failures..

The poor sap has been beat down so low it's almost sad to kick him while he's down, but I always say people usually get what they deserve.
:lol:

[jayreynolds]

"BTW, I am on to you, Gaiacon/liakopoulos"

Well, if they are one in the same, halva should dismiss him immediately.

Hey halva, we staffed our fyrom operation cut-rate and dirt cheap with albanians, a nice bunch of people. We use turks for the close-up back-alley work, and rom for the more esoteric black bag jobs. I'll bet Liakopoulos would love to visit with our staff.

Speaking of Liakopoulos, what is your opinion of this website?

http://www.grecoreport.com

[gaiacomm]

still say that all should ignore Jay and his group. All they do is feed on reactions from their predictable questions and answers.

They are like a fly buzzing around a picnic table that just left a dead carcass and laid eggs to be maggots to later land on your food.

So just move the picnic table inside! The flies will not get in!

Just look at pages and pages of data some good some not.

Jay is not an authority on Chemtrails or Contrails. It is a hobby for him to play with. Jay designs and builds toilets for ships! And is a farmer that grows food in bad ground.

He has a website that is a clear indication of his personality. Just look at the design and layout.

Jay has found a niche section of the internet where he thinks he can rule as long as he pays his internet access bill each month.

Jay is a cyberjunkie who depends on the internet to get him out of the house and away from his family.

Jay will follow you like a bad virus. But you can rid the virus by giving it the "HAND".

Jay, Got milk?

[halva]

Well this is all getting very repetitive.

Liakopoulos was right in his first estimation that Reynolds is a bad habit, and I don't know why he has changed his mind.

I am the only one who has to stay here, really.

If we have anything else of importance to say, we can say it at Megasprayer, or elsewhere if anyone has another suggestion for a secure site.

[halva]

Of course there are many other aspects to chemtrails. One of them is this:

http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=Discussion&action=display&num=1078422227

It takes us right away from climate change, which is the point of contact with Arianna.

We therefore should not discuss the subject here. It is off topic.

Out of respect for the priorities of this forum, and this thread, if Reynolds tries to have a related argument here, I really do agree with gaiacomm that the thing to do is to ignore him.

I am open to suggestions as to where we might adjourn to. I suggest Megasprayer.

[liakopoulos]

THE DARK SIDE OF ZIONISM WOULD NOT USE SCIENTISTS BUT SIMPLY ITS MINIORS FOR THE CHEMTRAILS ISSUE. RAYNOLDS AND SHITFEAD9 PROOVE THAT. SHITHEAD9 IS THE PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A ZIONISTIC PIG. BE CAREFULL OF HOW YOU TALK TO ME SHITHEAD9 ,I COULD BE YOUR FATHER, AT LEAST THERE IS A GOOD CHANCE OF IT SINCE I VISITED YOUR COUNTRY A LOT OF TIMES. I AM LEAVING YOU NOW WITH YOUR BELOVED JAY. YOU DESERVE ITS OTHER. SHALOM SUCKERS!

[jayreynolds]

chemmies are cowards. Challenged, they run away.
Happens every time, going on five years now.
This thread is going fifty pages even if I'm the only one posting.

[gaiacomm]

still say that all should ignore Jay and his group. All they do is feed on reactions from their predictable questions and answers.

They are like a fly buzzing around a picnic table that just left a dead carcass and laid eggs to be maggots to later land on your food.

So just move the picnic table inside! The flies will not get in!

Just look at pages and pages of data some good some not.

Jay is not an authority on Chemtrails or Contrails. It is a hobby for him to play with. Jay designs and builds toilets for ships! And is a farmer that grows food in bad ground.

He has a website that is a clear indication of his personality. Just look at the design and layout.

Jay has found a niche section of the internet where he thinks he can rule as long as he pays his internet access bill each month.

Jay is a cyberjunkie who depends on the internet to get him out of the house and away from his family.

Jay will follow you like a bad virus. But you can rid the virus by giving it the "HAND".

Jay, Got milk?

[Bonehead9]

Chemies run away with their tails between their legs.

You lose.

:lol:

[gaiacomm]

Chemies run away with their tails between their legs.

You lose.

:lol:


So YOU say!

This not not a game, this is reality!

There are no winners or losers just winners!

[gaiacomm]

still say that all should ignore Jay and his group. All they do is feed on reactions from their predictable questions and answers.

They are like a fly buzzing around a picnic table that just left a dead carcass and laid eggs to be maggots to later land on your food.

So just move the picnic table inside! The flies will not get in!

Just look at pages and pages of data some good some not.

Jay is not an authority on Chemtrails or Contrails. It is a hobby for him to play with. Jay designs and builds toilets for ships! And is a farmer that grows food in bad ground.

He has a website that is a clear indication of his personality. Just look at the design and layout.

Jay has found a niche section of the internet where he thinks he can rule as long as he pays his internet access bill each month.

Jay is a cyberjunkie who depends on the internet to get him out of the house and away from his family.

Jay will follow you like a bad virus. But you can rid the virus by giving it the "HAND".

Jay, Got milk?

[Sore Throat]

Jay Reynolds:


"What a complete ass you are, 'Sore'. The image is just of contrails. Most likely the planes that left them were F-16s flying cover for Washington, DC."

Likely ? ! !

Right Jay, those same F-16s that were scrambled on September 11th to protect Washington DC .

You know Jay, the F-16s kept armed and ready on the tarmac at Andrews.

History shows how effective they were that fateful day.

The real losers in this chirade are the honest, hard working American public who are being deceived on a daily basis.

Your tax dollars... not at work.

[halva]

Dear Dr. Claire Gilbert,

Thank you for replying. I am pleased to see that unlike Jay Reynolds you are not indifferent to the effects of aviation on the earth's atmosphere and the environment generally, but I also see that he was probably telling the truth when he claimed you were a personal friend of his. I do not believe what you say on 'contrails vs chemtrails' and in fact have difficulty in even believing that you are sincere. Sorry.

There has been so much high level and very visible recommendation of aerosol spraying as a means of mitigation of global climate change that it stretches credibility to believe that what one is seeing in the skies is not merely the result of the application of programmes previously recommended. After all it is harder to explain why they should NOT be implemented if they have been recommended than to believe the contrary, i.e. that they have been recommended but not implemented, although the skies look exactly what they would like if they had been.

It would therefore not be expedient for me to post your message at Arianna's forum as a contribution to the fight that Reynolds has started there.

Of course you are free to post it yourself if you want your viewpoint to be seen. Given the priorities in Mr. Reynolds' mind, though, I don't believe that you will sensitise him to the environmental problems caused by 'regular aviation'.

Thank you again, and I regret that I cannot reciprocate to your politeness by posting something that would appear to be to the detriment of the case I personally believe to be true.

Sincerely,

Wayne Hall


----- Original Message -----
From: "Claire W. Gilbert"
To: "Wayne Hall"
Cc: "Claire W Gilbert"
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 12:55 AM
Subject: Re: Attention Dr. Claire Gilbert


> Hello Wayne Hall,
>
> You may publish my remarks. If you want to edit them down, contact me
> first. Otherwise, permission is granted for you to post the article as is
> to the Arianna Online Forum. Please confirm. Best wishes,
>
> Claire W. Gilbert
>
> ***
> I cannot comment on the actual number of flights across U.S. skies each year
> as I am not current. If you are interested in the affects of flights on the
> stratosphere, then I stand by my ENS article. The full article, I believe,
> was not posted in the Arianna Online Forum. See www.blazingtattles.com. I
> don't believe the number of flights from 1997 to date is a constant. This
> is off the top of my head. I believe the number varies and increases
> annually, overall.
>
> I'd like to add that a recent study which I read about in a publication for
> journalists of the American Geophysical Union reported that the height of
> the mesosphere (the portion of the atmosphere above the stratosphere) is
> shrinking and has shrunk measurably in fairly recent years. Now, why is
> this? I've heard already for years (through the "grape vine") that the
> stratosphere is shrinking because of the effect of airplanes (and probably
> pollution moving up through the lower atmosphere). Could rocket fuel
> exhaust be a factor in the shrinking mesosphere? If anyone has
> informatiion, please send it to claire @ blazingtattles.com. You can't
> click on my email address, you'll have to input it by hand.
>
> I would also like to add that although researchers may spray populations
> with various biological or chemical concoctions (I don't know if they do or
> don't), I seriously doubt that what people call "contrails" -- trails of
> airplane exhaust high in the sky -- are the method of disbursing these. (On
> the other hand, there have been, I believe, very low altitude flights that
> scatter pestilence over crops of enemy states.) Exhaust of airplanes would
> likely have a similar effect on people as does exhaust from motor vehicles.
> This pollution sensitizes a lot of people to allergies and also causes many
> people to have virus-like symptoms. Unfortu;nately, most physicans and
> other health care workers in the U.S., including immunologists and
> allergists, are not knowledgeable in this field, and mis-diagnosis is more
> common than not. Professionals in the American Academy of Environmental
> Medicine are more sensitive to these effects than their colleagues in other
> fields of medicine.
>
> Regarding chemtrails, many people seem to have very firm commitments to
> their beliefs in chemtrails based (at least in part) on the fact that they
> can see trails in the sky and they look "different" than regular
> condensation trails, or the trails persist. But there are geophysical
> reasons why some trails persist or look different. They are not inherently
> different. The appearance depends on temperature, humidity, altitude,
> pollution saturation level of the air, and the like. Even nearby exhaust
> trails may behave differently as the upper atmosphere may have layers, or
> rivers and streams of air with diverse properties of humidity, saturation,
> temperature, etc., just as oceans have such things as the Gulf Stream,
> eddies, and currents.

[jayreynolds]

'Sore' wrote:
"The real losers in this chirade are the honest, hard working American public who are being deceived on a daily basis."

Nope. The majority of the public reject "chemtrails".
Your whole life, and that of the rest of your "chemtrail" cult are the losers. Born to lose, it seems.

One hoax sets you up for the next. Barriers to logic build up, barriers to illogic break down. Pretty soon your mind is so open, your brain falls completely out! :shock:

I see you still hang with Carnicom, the guy that has fallen to digging his flesh with a needle for hours at a time, searchin for mythical "fibers'. :roll:

Your motorcycle riding buddy "Mark Sky" is yet another example. The sad fact is that he has done even less than you to promote the hoax. He went quite mad several years ago and contents himself writing infantile poseys that nobody reads anymore. Lives in a dream world. :oops:

The next one, Thermit(Mark Steadham), almost never participates, but has loaded his website(chemtrailcentral.com) up with pay-when-you-click
banners. I've been looking into just what kind of money he is making..
Fact is, he's probably not making a living from people clicking the banners advertising just about anything at his site.
He most likely is making only a few thousand dollars a year from it.
I see he is asking for a dupe to run his site for him. What a scam!
As long as he can rake in a few grand, who is he to stop the flow?

If he were really honest, and a good citizen, he'd use that as seed money
for you and others to replicate his Flight Explorer study. Yeah, remember how 'foot soldier' said that should be done? Well, Thermit has found the goose and is gathering the golden eggs whenever he can, and keeping his trap shut about it.
Some kind of friends you have, eh, 'Sore'? :P

I think you people need to reevaluate your lives, re-read these last 49 pages, answer my questions honestly, and admit it, you have all lost, bigtime, and always will. You can't fight the truth, and win against it.
Fighting the truth just leads to more lies, public humiliation and wasted lives.

These questions have gone unanswered for just under ffity pages of message board text.

Why?

The answers to unraveling the "chemtrail" hoax lie in between the lines.
Think about it.

-----------------------------------------------------

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. What is your claim about the purpose of "chemtrails, what are they for?

[jayreynolds]

I know the current number of flights flown by commercial and military jets.
I make a practice of knowing the answers before I open my mouth, and
keeping it shut till I do..

If you guys were really interested you'd look through the data and find the truth, like I did. That doesn't interest you, and never did. That you people aren't interested in the truth is no surprise, really.

Even a back-of-the-envelope calculation will tell you that 62 milllion flights/year is a gross exaggeration.

There are probably less than 10,000 flyable aircraft total in the commercial and military jet fleets combined.

Do the math.

Jay

[foot_soldier]

"jayreynolds" wrote:

That you people aren't interested in the truth is no surprise, really.
That's an incorrect statement.


"jayreynolds" wrote:

Even a back-of-the-envelope calculation will tell you that 62 milllion flights/year is a gross exaggeration.
So take it up with Jim Scanlon and Ms. Gilbert.

###

This resource covers commercial flight statistics:

http://www.bts.gov/

Do you have a resource for military and civil aircraft statistics?

[jayreynolds]

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000073.html

[jayreynolds]

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000117-7.html

[halva]

I have an announcement to make. I am now willing to discuss why I have been forced to debunk "chemtrails", and what "payoff" I have received for doing so..... I will reveal publicly to everyone on this board exactly what "payoff" I receive for debunking the "chemtrails" hoax.
Jay
==================


We still haven't found out what this "payoff" is.

Would Dr. Claire Gilbert, the friend of Jay Reynolds, be able to shed any light on this I wonder. Both for the case of Reynolds and even perhaps for her own case. This could well be worth investigating.

[foot_soldier]

This resource covers commercial flight statistics:

http://www.bts.gov/

Do you have a resource for military and civil aircraft statistics?

[gaiacomm]

still say that all should ignore Jay and his group. All they do is feed on reactions from their predictable questions and answers.

They are like a fly buzzing around a picnic table that just left a dead carcass and laid eggs to be maggots to later land on your food.

So just move the picnic table inside! The flies will not get in!

Just look at pages and pages of data some good some not.

Jay is not an authority on Chemtrails or Contrails. It is a hobby for him to play with. Jay designs and builds toilets for ships! And is a farmer that grows food in bad ground.

He has a website that is a clear indication of his personality. Just look at the design and layout.

Jay has found a niche section of the internet where he thinks he can rule as long as he pays his internet access bill each month.

Jay is a cyberjunkie who depends on the internet to get him out of the house and away from his family.

Jay will follow you like a bad virus. But you can rid the virus by giving it the "HAND".

Jay, Got milk?

[gaiacomm]

Members:
I appreciate your comments. I realize its difficult to sift thru the ones that are real or not.
Its understandable how many of you feel about me and I can appreciate that.

The fact is that I am real and my opnions and statements are real and I take full responsibility and accountability for my actions without compromise.

My work is serious and exact.
You can look at the corporate website at www.gaiacomminternational.com to keep informed of my progress.

I will support and defend Chemtrails where I can and will soon be able to expose some truth to the matter.

But at this stage I must remain focused on the gaiacomm project as evident with what is going on in the world today.

In short I will again cease from posting here and on the Arianna site for now unless I am called on for supoort.

All of you have excellent points and the information that all of you have provided is valuable to so many of us who wish to help you all!

J.R. will continually post whatever he can to promote his ego and lack of intelligence.

So just ignore and continue your fight for the truth!

[airtankerpilot]

Jay is not an authority on Chemtrails or Contrails. It is a hobby for him to play with. Jay designs and builds toilets for ships! And is a farmer that grows food in bad ground.

He has a website that is a clear indication of his personality. Just look at the design and layout.



And ZERO chemmie are authorities on aviation, aircraft, weather, atmosphere dynamics, air traffic control, etc.

And people that are authorities in those areas, do not believe in chemtrails.

Some of us actually work in aviation, so it is not a hobby for me.

Do you really want to start going down the road of websites and mental disorders? If you want, then the chemmie side does not fare so well, with the likes of Carnicom doing his at home dentistry on himself, Crazy Larry's paranoia, and other chemmie websites spreading anti aviation and anti airplane fear. Go to chemtrail central and they are afriad of everything in life. There was even one loon who gets scared everytime NASA does wingtip vortices studies.

[halva]

Gaiacomm, since you volunteer support, I wouldn't mind having some support in finding out why Dr. Claire Gilbert says:

"Regarding chemtrails, many people seem to have very firm commitments to their beliefs in chemtrails based (at least in part) on the fact that they can see trails in the sky and they look "different" than regular condensation trails, or the trails persist. But there are geophysical reasons why some trails persist or look different. They are not inherently different. The appearance depends on temperature, humidity, altitude, pollution saturation level of the air, and the like. Even nearby exhaust trails may behave differently as the upper atmosphere may have layers, or rivers and streams of air with diverse properties of humidity, saturation, temperature, etc., just as oceans have such things as the Gulf Stream, eddies, and currents."

We might have more chance of finding this out than we have of learning what Reynolds' "payoff" is, given that Dr. Claire shows some interest in solving certain real problems.

[airtankerpilot]

We might have more chance of finding this out than we have of learning what Reynolds' "payoff" is, given that Dr. Claire shows some interest in solving certain real problems.

Yet another tired old and overused accusation from the chemmie side. Cant you people find a new one to use? Accusing your opponents of being "paid" to oppose you, well that is silly beyond belief, and chemmies have been using it for years. Its not very original either.

Its just right out of the chemtrail playbook of standard replies.

Instead of trying to undermine him, how about showing us how he is wrong and that contrails can not persist. Tell how how the atmosphere is uniform and undynamic and how therefore contrails must look the same each time. That, after all, is the crux of the chemtrail belief.

[gaiacomm]

Gaiacomm, since you volunteer support, I wouldn't mind having some support in finding out why Dr. Claire Gilbert says:

"Regarding chemtrails, many people seem to have very firm commitments to their beliefs in chemtrails based (at least in part) on the fact that they can see trails in the sky and they look "different" than regular condensation trails, or the trails persist. But there are geophysical reasons why some trails persist or look different. They are not inherently different. The appearance depends on temperature, humidity, altitude, pollution saturation level of the air, and the like. Even nearby exhaust trails may behave differently as the upper atmosphere may have layers, or rivers and streams of air with diverse properties of humidity, saturation, temperature, etc., just as oceans have such things as the Gulf Stream, eddies, and currents."



We might have more chance of finding this out than we have of learning what Reynolds' "payoff" is, given that Dr. Claire shows some interest in solving certain real problems.



halva:

As a scientist myself her answer is typical of her opinion based on facts that she has at her disposal and some inherent insight.

Her statement states what she feels and that is all. Trying to second guess would only dillute the issue.

You could ask her yourself to define in more detail but I doubt that she will.

Continue to gather the facts that are public and hope that oneday some scientist or dis-grundled executive will come forward and tell the truth.

Until then you and others will have to wait!

When I am ready I will come forward as well!

Stay informed!

[halva]

Airtanker pilot I am not going to be drawn into discussion with you but the word "payoff" is quoted directly from Reynolds. He offered, if certain conditions were met, to reveal what "payoff" he has received for debunking "chemtrails".

[halva]

So gaiacomm reverts to counselling us to wait for a "whistleblower".

I'm not going to do that.

[Bonehead9]

Airtanker pilot I am not going to be drawn into discussion with you but the word "payoff" is quoted directly from Reynolds. He offered, if certain conditions were met, to reveal what "payoff" he has received for debunking "chemtrails".

Then meet his conditions. Answer his questions.

[jayreynolds]

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. What is your claim about the purpose of "chemtrails, what are they for?

[halva]

Sorry, I haven't got round to formulating my set piece reply.

Obviously you must imagine you achieve something with this auto-pilot type posting.

[gaiacomm]

Halva:

There are some of us that are bound to remain quiet until the right moment and that moment is not yet here. But the moment is coming soon and your questions will be answered. Not in your timeframe, Halva.

The questions that are asked by JR are reasonable and there are no right or wrong answers to his questions. I answered them and nobody contested my answers. So, Halva...take your time and answer his questions to prove to yourself that its ok and no one person will make fun of your answers.

JR needs this so he can feel vindicated from his ignorance and ego.

Give it to him so he can be absolved of his pain, and then lets see what else he has!

It takes very little energy to answer these sophomoric questions!

Your not giving in Halva what you are doing is debating your position ahead of the rest!

[halva]

Gaiacomm attempting to answer Reynolds' questions is not part of my strategy.

You are the scientist. If you think they need answering, answer them.

I do not like to see you reverting to this pseudo-referee role. If you want to concentrate on your professional work, do so. If you want to intervene here, intervene as a fighter, not as a referee or advisor. Address Reynolds and company, not me, unless you have some information to give me.

[gaiacomm]

halva, you are not the Governer of Judea!

I already answered his questions and he did not contest my answers. JR wishes for you to answer the questions in your own words.

Halva you do not need to be a scientist to answer his simple questions.

A blind monkey in a tree can answer these questions, Halva. Please stop being so defensive and argument prone. Its get you nothing but grief!

I stand with you Halva but I do not wish to take orders from others!

[gaiacomm]

Gaiacomm attempting to answer Reynolds' questions is not part of my strategy.

You are the scientist. If you think they need answering, answer them.

I do not like to see you reverting to this pseudo-referee role. If you want to concentrate on your professional work, do so. If you want to intervene here, intervene as a fighter, not as a referee or advisor. Address Reynolds and company, not me, unless you have some information to give me.


halva, you are not the Governer of Judea!

Halva;

I already answered his questions and he did not contest my answers. JR wishes for you to answer the questions in your own words.

Halva you do not need to be a scientist to answer his simple questions.

A blind monkey in a tree can answer these questions, Halva. Please stop being so defensive and argument prone. Its get you nothing but grief!

I stand with you Halva but I do not wish to take orders from others!

[halva]

Gaiacomm if you can't help please go back to your professional work.

And stop forcing me to spam by posting identical messages all over the internet.

[gaiacomm]

Gaiacomm if you can't help please go back to your professional work.

And stop forcing me to spam by posting identical messages all over the internet.



I stand with you Halva but I do not wish to take orders from others!

[PHANTOM]

CONGRATS TO JR FOR THE 50 PAGES. IT READS JUST LIKE A COMIC STRIP. DAILY.

WHAT A BUNCH OF MAROONS!

:roll: