It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature [Archive] - Page 27

jayreynolds

02-22-2005, 10:56 AM

Jay, the difference between factory farms and ma and pop farms is obvious and I posted about that already.
Not true. The family farm where I get my turkey manure is a CAFO, and they fall under the regulations. There are dozens of these in my county. when you drive by just roll yoru windows up. In the season when they spread manure, do the same. When Jay Reynolds spreads his manure, his wife has to delay hanging clothes out on the line till the wind blows just right.
You get over it.

Sustainable earth friendly, human friendly, and hog friendly farms are possible and many are switching to this mode of operation.
I went to the link you directed me to and saw the example here:
http://www.factoryfarm.org/resources/photos/sustainable/1-01.php

Yes, the piggies look like they are rolling in mud and shit like a bunch of pigs. The place stinks to high heaven, there is no way it cannot. If you had such an operation in your backyard, your neighbors would be picketing you. I'm sure the piggies are happy.

That said, it looks like there are about 4-5 pigs there. In North Carolina, there are currently 10 million porcine residents. If each five were given the amount of space shown in your 'sustainable' site's photo, hw much room is there going to be for people?

Factory farms are HUGE --- and they make no effort to control anything
Let's not get too crazy over this! Enough on hog farms, please. This is enough information to get you up to snuff (lol) on the subject!

Well, dearie, sorry to wake you from your sound slumber about how your meat gets on the table.
The facts are that all farms are run by people, and people need to eat. There aren't enough people interested in the actual backbreaking work of farming in our country already, and don't even expect the newer generation to head out ready to turn compost all day. The dream of producing a significant amount of food without going to large scale agriculture might be possible for the third world, but not our world, In my search for hog farms in Japan I saw they import most of their pork already, and guess where it comes from? US

BTW, At yor factoryfarms.org site, I checked out the crops section, where I have the most expertise. They had an article about how 3rd world farmers were increasing yields by letting weeds grow in their corn. Yeah, right. The article closes like this-

"Perhaps the most dramatic evidence of its success so far, he adds, is that little of the extra produce ever finds its way to distant supermarkets while the farmers starve. Most of it is eaten by the people who grow it.

In other words, they are barely geting by, subsistence level. That's about as green as you can get, eh?

halva

02-22-2005, 11:12 AM

What a crock!!! Do understand that, Halva?

:idea:

No I don't because we seem to have a linguistic problem. In British English, which is the kind of English I am more familiar with, a crock is a person who is in very bad physical condition. I don't know who or what you are referring to as a crock.

Boomer Chick

02-22-2005, 11:27 AM

IS, I read every single one of your posts today. They make sense on the surface, but I just can't believe your role of author of this and that and your insistence on the HF being primary. I looked up world studies on atmospheric gases and particulates and I'm sure you'd say because the HF isn't there, that the chemtrails and HAARP past projects worked effectively enough to control that gas OR the information is being supressed. The religious implications are far too subjective and subject to interpretation: your view of it if expressed in book form with credible sources could present a valid thesis, but again, I'm no expert on Jewish dominated world cabals and it seems extremely far-fetched, meaning, loosely connected psuedo-facts collected in isolation to larger and smaller social group considerations. However, that hasn't prevented many from writing books and theses on such assertions.

The theory of communists desiring to be free of religious influences is intriguing, however. I always wondered what the fear of communism actually was. It seems that any governmental system whose heads of state became elitist usurpers of freedom and essentially stripped the idealism and tenets of the system itself, corrupted it so badly that the system first invisioned just couldn't survive. It morphed into another form of tyranny. The same is true with democracy or republics based on representation. The economic system that Russia tried to develop with its corporate farms and industries raised the general population's living standards but took away that human incentive of land and product ownership which capitalism provided. Yet, it did help the impoverished for a time to become educated in state schools and work in state farms and companies. Overall, however, they failed to implement the true heart and soul of socialism as a cooperative venture and instead turned it into a totalitarian state of sorts, which seems to be happening here as well. And this always comes down to the leadership and those in power who instead of remaining true to the ideals of the government conceived, become drunk with power and authority and the riches involved in the leadership roles. Here, the corporations in collusion with those in power, attempt to rule the populace, rather than the checks and balances and the feedback role the "we the people" Constitutional ideal offered at its inception and first hundred and some odd years. It might have been fewer years than that as the first law passed to give corporations citizen status occurred in the late 1800's over the railroads. It's really not capitalism itself that is inherently wrong, as so many socialists attempt to express and continue to rail against. It's the capitalism devoid of the freedom the factor, the hallmark of vast empires and monopolies, vast corporate banking, and unethical deal-making with smaller, poorer countries at the expense of those countries for the profit of the elites and expense of the citizens here, for the profit of the elites and CEOs. It's another form of imperialism on the capitalist model which punishes those truly democratic nations and leaders who seek to gain independence from the tentacles of the imperialists in the global market game and seeks to overcontrol our liberties and freedoms here. Our nation and the world must go back to the over-riding tenets of the ideals conceived in democratic governance and allow fair and equitable market exchanges for resources and labor and freedom for every individual with socially responsible programs uplifting the basic health and human welfare of every citizen. Otherwise, the whole system will see a collapse as surely as the Roman Empire collapsed. A loose system of sovereign states overgirded and governed by a world tribunal of impeccable democratic and representative governing will be our only hope within a fair global capitalistic market system with smaller business entities. The few who would attempt to rule and overpower the many without benevolent intent or shared cooperative dreams of peace and brotherhood in a slave-based economic system....... will fail. It cannot sustain itself.

If there is a coverup of our own polluting processes and chemical engineering to clean up the mess we've created, it's certainly feasible. But, to prove that it happened and is happening is the burden you and others bear. And so far, although the motivations and premises seem valid, the facts presented just don't bear up to criticism. I'm sorry. If you are sincere and truly the person you say you are, you must feel truly responsible and at the same time compelled to tell your story. How could you go by anything but a psuedo-name at this point if you are indeed a pivotal person in this whole global chemical mitigation problem of which you speak? If you are who you say you are, you would have to deny your own true name. You could not offer real evidence and you could not tell who you are. In fact, if you did, you would be killed. Period. So, given that you fail to produce adequate evidence, you fail to produce your actual and verifiable connections as a previous insider, I cannot in all good conscience accept your explanations. So far, your HF theory simply fails in its conceptual and scientific basis even in regard to other country's scientific analysis of the atmospheric chemistry. Again, you could retort with "well, they cleaned it all up." In that case, however, your railing on and on about its significance would be moot. Your molecular interpretation of the HAARP mechanism fails to account for heat. You mentioned acoustics, but you failed to mention heat as the primary function of ionic stimulation. Why?

This is it for me, IS. I can't continue to follow your story as so many parts of it do not hold up to scrutiny. I sense your compulsion to express yourself, however, and my advice to you at this point would be to write your book. Get everything in it you wish to express, get the supporting evidence as you know it, and get it published. Once it's "out there" you can rest. Perhaps you could even go on the talk show circuit as well. That's my advice to you. Others have done it whose theories are even less plausible than yours. It doesn't take a lot of funding, either. It takes a publishing company, and there are many small and off the wall ones, now, that will look at your manuscript and publish it.
Contact George Noory and ask for publishing companies and give him your basic idea. Then you wouldn't have to haunt a lonely forum such as this and hit your head against a brick wall. Then again, if this is what you like.... what can I say? If you care so much, you would give your life for truth, so write the book. WRITE THE BOOK. Write it under a false name, but at least WRITE IT!!! Do not berate me, do not flame me. I am being honest with the information I've been given and this is my feedback. Please deal with it intelligently. Thanks.

BC

Boomer Chick

02-22-2005, 11:47 AM

Jay,

That was not the link I gave you. I gave you articles and quite a bit of information on the aspects of factory farms. You failed to read it, so I don't care, either. The point was made and the information given on the overall situation -- factory farms, sustainable farms, cooperative small farms, and the EPA and state regulations. What's to create confusion over? The pic you gave was a small hog farm called sustainable because of its earth friendly smaller size and the hog farm pictured was in Canada. You get off the point. You seem to be getting off the point quite a bit.

Yaak, you're right.

Sorry, guys, the hog farm subject has been reviewed here, given enough time, and you can wallow in your own mud regarding the issue. Oink! Oink!

BC :p

ps.... Halva, crock means...... crock of poop or excrement!!!! A crock is a container. Get it? You have a way of trying to control and get in your mislead and totally erroneous assumptions regarding the social constructs of this board. I'm well aware of distraction techniques and if you want to post something credible and meaty................ PLEASE DO! Your intrusions on the social level are not welcome!

Panelists Decry Bush Science Policies
The Associated Press

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/E022105Y.shtml

Monday 21 February 2005

Washington - The voice of science is being stifled in the Bush administration, with fewer scientists heard in policy discussions and money for research and advanced training being cut, according to panelists at a national science meeting.

Speakers at the national meeting of the American Association for Advancement of Science expressed concern Sunday that some scientists in key federal agencies are being ignored or even pressured to change study conclusions that don't support policy positions.

The speakers also said that Bush's proposed 2005 federal budget is slashing spending for basic research and reducing investments in education designed to produce the nation's future scientists.

And there also was concern that increased restrictions and requirements for obtaining visas is diminishing the flow to the U.S. of foreign-born science students who have long been a major part of the American research community.

Rosina Bierbaum, dean of the University of Michigan School of Natural Resources and Environment, said the Bush administration has cut scientists out of some of the policy-making processes, particularly on environmental issues.

"In previous administrations, scientists were always at the table when regulations were being developed," she said. "Science never had the last voice, but it had a voice."

Issues on global warming, for instance, that achieved a firm scientific consensus in earlier years are now being questioned by Bush policy makers. Proven, widely accepted research is being ignored or disputed, she said.

Government policy papers issued prior to the Bush years moved beyond questioning the validity of global warming science and addressed ways of confronting or dealing with climate change.

Under Bush, said Bierbaum, the questioning of the proven science has become more important than finding ways to cope with climate change.

One result of such actions, said Neal Lane of Rice University, a former director of the National Science Foundation, is that "we don't really have a policy right now to deal with what everybody agrees is a serious problem."

Among scientists, said Lane, "there is quite a consensus in place that the Earth is warming and that humans are responsible for a considerable part of that" through the burning of fossil fuels.

And the science is clear, he said, that without action to control fossil fuel use, the warming will get worse and there will be climate events that "our species has not experienced before."

Asked for comment, White House spokesman Ken Lisaius said, "The president makes policy decisions based on what the best policies for the country are, not politics. People who suggest otherwise are ill-informed."

Kurt Gottfried of Cornell University and the Union of Concerned Scientists said a survey of scientists in the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service found that about 42 percent said they felt pressured to not report publicly any findings that do not agree with Bush policies on endangered species. He said almost a third of the Fish and Wildlife researchers said they were even pressured not to express within the agency any views in conflict with the Bush policies.

"This administration has distanced itself from scientific information," said Gottfried. He said this is part of a larger effort to let politics dominate pure science.

He said scientists in the Environmental Protection Agency have been pressured to change their research to keep it consistent with the Bush political position on environmental issues.

Because of such actions, he said, it has become more difficult for federal agencies to attract and retain top scientific talent. This becomes a critical issue, said Gottfried, because about 35 percent of EPA scientists will retire soon and the Bush administration can "mold the staff" of the agency through the hiring process.

Federal spending for research and development is significantly reduced under the proposed 2005 Bush budget, the speakers said.

"Overall the R&D budget is bad news," said Bierbaum.

She said the National Science Foundation funds for graduate students and for kindergarten through high school education has been slashed.

NASA has gotten a budget boost, but most of the new money will be going to the space shuttle, space station and Bush's plan to explore the moon and Mars. What is suffering is the space agency's scientific research efforts, she said.

"Moon and Mars is basically going to eat everybody's lunch," she said.

Lane said Bush's moon and Mars exploration effort has not excited the public and has no clear goals or plans.

He said Bush's moon-Mars initiative "was poorly carried out and the budget is not there to do the job so science (at NASA) will really get hurt."

-------

Boomer Chick

02-22-2005, 11:53 AM

The Final Proof: Global Warming Is a Man-Made Disaster
By Steve Connor
The Independent U.K.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/E022105B.shtml

Saturday 19 February 2005

Scientists have found the first unequivocal link between man-made greenhouse gases and a dramatic heating of the Earth's oceans. The researchers - many funded by the US government - have seen what they describe as a "stunning" correlation between a rise in ocean temperature over the past 40 years and pollution of the atmosphere.

The study destroys a central argument of global warming skeptics within the Bush administration - that climate change could be a natural phenomenon. It should convince George Bush to drop his objections to the Kyoto treaty on climate change, the scientists say.

Tim Barnett, a marine physicist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in San Diego and a leading member of the team, said: "We've got a serious problem. The debate is no longer: 'Is there a global warming signal?' The debate now is what are we going to do about it?"

The findings are crucial because much of the evidence of a warmer world has until now been from air temperatures, but it is the oceans that are the driving force behind the Earth's climate. Dr Barnett said: "Over the past 40 years there has been considerable warming of the planetary system and approximately 90 per cent of that warming has gone directly into the oceans."

He told the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Washington: "We defined a 'fingerprint' of ocean warming. Each of the oceans warmed differently at different depths and constitutes a fingerprint which you can look for. We had several computer simulations, for instance one for natural variability: could the climate system just do this on its own? The answer was no.

"We looked at the possibility that solar changes or volcanic effects could have caused the warming - not a chance. What just absolutely nailed it was greenhouse warming."

America produces a quarter of the world's greenhouse gases, yet under President Bush it is one of the few developed nations not to have signed the Kyoto treaty to limit emissions. The President's advisers have argued that the science of global warming is full of uncertainties and change might be a natural phenomenon.

Dr Barnett said that position was untenable because it was now clear from the latest study, which is yet to be published, that man-made greenhouse gases had caused vast amounts of heat to be soaked up by the oceans. "It's a good time for nations that are not part of Kyoto to re-evaluate their positions and see if it would be to their advantage to join," he said.

The study involved scientists from the US Department of Energy, the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California and the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, as well as the Met Office's Hadley Centre.

They analysed more than 7 million recordings of ocean temperature from around the world, along with about 2 million readings of sea salinity, and compared the rise in temperatures at different depths to predictions made by two computer simulations of global warming.

"Two models, one from here and one from England, got the observed warming almost exactly. In fact we were stunned by the degree of similarity," Dr Barnett said. "The models are right. So when a politician stands up and says 'the uncertainty in all these simulations start to question whether we can believe in these models', that argument is no longer tenable." Typical ocean temperatures have increased since 1960 by between 0.5C and 1C, depending largely on depth. Dr Barnett said: "The real key is the amount of energy that has gone into the oceans. If we could mine the energy that has gone in over the past 40 years we could run the state of California for 200,000 years... It's come from greenhouse warming."

Because the global climate is largely driven by the heat locked up in the oceans, a rise in sea temperatures could have devastating effects for many parts of the world.

Ruth Curry, from the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, said that warming could alter important warm-water currents such as the Gulf Stream, as melting glaciers poured massive volumes of fresh water into the North Atlantic. "These changes are happening and they are expected to amplify. It's a certainty that these changes will put serious strains on the ecosystems of the planet," Dr Curry said.

__________________

Insurrectionchemistry

02-22-2005, 12:16 PM

I do think we are beginning to see the petty thuggery of the Reynolds Mafia now. When the radiolytic effects of the ozone depletion were introduced as a topic, the Reynolds thugs attempted to steal the podium and run off with it.

The real big causes for global warming are caused by the higher UV radiation from the ozone depletion, which makes global warming a man-made factor.

The CO-2 association with the UV damage to the ocean's plankton is an easy one to establish. This one is last place.

There is a second one from the UV breakdown of the hydrocarbons in the air [ie C6H6] into light ones like (CH4 [methane] and C2H2 [ethyne], that both float on top of the atmosphere. This contribution is in the middle. Note: [C-H]6 + UV --> CH4 + C2H2 + 3 CO2

And the third and biggest factor of all is the HF transport and NFx factor, which is number one. This one dominates all the effects of global warming and is the prime reason to chemtrail methods to rain out the HF.

The top three global warming factors all stem from the UV problems connected with ozone depletion. And this is the pure reason for all the fishing, hog farming, and other bull shit to distract persons from that overall domination of the global warming issues. They are now well caught doing this diversion stuff and their purpose well established---hiding the UV cascade effects.

Persons like Reynolds, Yaak --Ed Snell, WMM, and Simon Stuart all don't want the environmental folks to know the big picture. One problem caused a cascade of global warming problems.

And to fix part of it, Oak Ridge conspired with places like DuPont to stop the Freon production, and places like GE to make jets cloud and fog the skies to reduce the UV factor and rain out HF, and conspired with the Bush oil Mafia to up the hydrogen in jet fuels-------this all to attempt to remediate the massive damage problems of global warming that were established in the mid-80s.

What this all means is there was one huge plan to control this problem that was kept from the people of the US and other countries. All the planet had zero say into if they wanted the planets skies full of lines and fog to help clear up the global warming disaster. If they wanted these acids on their landscapes contributing to the rise in toxic metals in the food and water chain, etc.

Now, what this means for Greenpeace and other environmental activist groups is that they now have grounds for huge class action suits against these scammers at the highest levels of government. The scammers tried to by-pass the public processes required for this sort of massive campaign on the global warming equation.

And they many also have legal actions against those that seek to conceal these issues by spamming lists all day long, year in and year out, with the object to confuse the activist community and provide constant diversions, insults, and scams.

So, now the truth is surfacing on the UV domination of the top three global warming gas production mechanisms, and there is a clear and present signal of those seeking to hide those problems.

Thus, we have defined the truth here and the reason for the dichotomy that exists here.

One faction is truth seeking and the other is concealing the truth by evil methods of racketeering.

halva

02-22-2005, 12:31 PM

ps.... Halva, crock means...... crock of poop or excrement!!!! A crock is a container. Get it? You have a way of trying to control and get in your mislead and totally erroneous assumptions regarding the social constructs of this board. I'm well aware of distraction techniques and if you want to post something credible and meaty................ PLEASE DO! Your intrusions on the social level are not welcome!

BC I no longer plan to make any assertion or argue anything here.

halva

02-22-2005, 12:36 PM

Except perhaps with Jim Phelps, who wrote:

Now, what this means for Greenpeace and other environmental activist groups is that they now have grounds for huge class action suits against these scammers at the highest levels of government.

Greenpeace will never do anything like this. And a litigation-based campaign will never get anywhere.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-22-2005, 12:41 PM

halva

02-22-2005, 12:48 PM

H says:

"Greenpeace will never do anything like this. And a litigation-based campaign will never get anywhere."
====

So, let em make it public then and have some new protest materials.

They can at least begin to play on equal footing with the Govt cover up types.

It's too complicated a problem for protest politics, and for organizations like Greenpeace that operate in terms of conventional political lobbying.

It has to be taken right out of the hands of politicians and the existing legal establishment. Scientists have to start injecting an input into, and providing leadership for, the new alternative social forum structures.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-22-2005, 12:55 PM

Science in the US is controlled by money-------so that won't work.

But passing around the facts do tend to make a difference over idiots copy and pasting.

halva

02-22-2005, 01:12 PM

Science in the US is controlled by money-------so that won't work.

But passing around the facts do tend to make a difference over idiots copy and pasting.

Yes, so keep doing it.

stuart_allsop

02-22-2005, 01:13 PM

BC I no longer plan to make any assertion or argue anything here.OK. That's fine by me.

Boomer Chick

02-22-2005, 02:11 PM

BC I no longer plan to make any assertion or argue anything here.

So you'll just....... what? Add something credible and dynamic?

Time will tell.

BC :rolleyes:

Insurrectionchemistry

02-22-2005, 04:46 PM

Insurrectionchemistry

02-22-2005, 05:18 PM

Its almost time for a dynastic empire to fall:

http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/276vsdtv.asp

jayreynolds

02-22-2005, 05:46 PM

Insurrectionchemistry

02-22-2005, 05:52 PM

"Reynolds' propagation of decepton, lies, and hoax by using distraction and hate language is being systematically decimated and his lies incinerated and cast upon the winds."

Rather fitting for this Forum's page count of: 666

Those with the mark of the beast being exposed, the anti-Christs revealed, sure looks like to me.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-22-2005, 05:54 PM

Place holder

TBD

Insurrectionchemistry

02-22-2005, 05:59 PM

Such a wonderful 666 symbolism:

I do think we are beginning to see the petty thuggery of the Reynolds Mafia now. When the radiolytic effects of the ozone depletion were introduced as a topic, the Reynolds thugs attempted to steal the podium and run off with it.

The real big causes for global warming are caused by the higher UV radiation from the ozone depletion, which makes global warming a man-made factor.

The CO-2 association with the UV damage to the ocean's plankton is an easy one to establish. This one is last place.

There is a second one from the UV breakdown of the hydrocarbons in the air [ie C6H6] into light ones like CH4 [methane] and C2H2 [ethyne], that both float on top of the atmosphere. This contribution is in the middle. Note: [C-H]6 + UV --> CH4 + C2H2 + 3 CO2

And the third and biggest factor of all is the HF transport and NFx factor, which is number one. This one dominates all the effects of global warming and is the prime reason to chemtrail methods to rain out the HF.

The top three global warming factors all stem from the UV problems connected with ozone depletion. And this is the pure reason for all the fishing, hog farming, and other bull shit to distract persons from that overall domination of the global warming issues. They are now well caught doing this diversion stuff and their purpose well established---hiding the UV cascade effects.

Persons like Reynolds, Yaak --Ed Snell, WMM, and Simon Stuart all don't want the environmental folks to know the big picture. One problem caused a cascade of global warming problems.

And to fix part of it, Oak Ridge conspired with places like DuPont to stop the Freon production, and places like GE to make jets cloud and fog the skies to reduce the UV factor and rain out HF, and conspired with the Bush oil Mafia to up the hydrogen in jet fuels-------this all to attempt to remediate the massive damage problems of global warming that were established in the mid-80s.

What this all means is there was one huge plan to control this problem that was kept from the people of the US and other countries. All the planet had zero say into if they wanted the planets skies full of lines and fog to help clear up the global warming disaster. If they wanted these acids on their landscapes contributing to the rise in toxic metals in the food and water chain, etc.

Now, what this means for Greenpeace and other environmental activist groups is that they now have grounds for huge class action suits against these scammers at the highest levels of government. The scammers tried to by-pass the public processes required for this sort of massive campaign on the global warming equation.

And they many also have legal actions against those that seek to conceal these issues by spamming lists all day long, year in and year out, with the object to confuse the activist community and provide constant diversions, insults, and scams.

So, now the truth is surfacing on the UV domination of the top three global warming gas production mechanisms, and there is a clear and present signal of those seeking to hide those problems.

Thus, we have defined the truth here and the reason for the dichotomy that exists here.

One faction is truth seeking and the other is concealing the truth by evil methods of racketeering.

jayreynolds

02-22-2005, 06:06 PM

This is it for me, IS. I can't continue to follow your story as so many parts of it do not hold up to scrutiny. I sense your compulsion to express yourself, however, and my advice to you at this point would be to write your book. Get everything in it you wish to express, get the supporting evidence as you know it, and get it published. Once it's "out there" you can rest. Perhaps you could even go on the talk show circuit as well. That's my advice to you. Others have done it whose theories are even less plausible than yours. It doesn't take a lot of funding, either. It takes a publishing company, and there are many small and off the wall ones, now, that will look at your manuscript and publish it.
Contact George Noory and ask for publishing companies and give him your basic idea. Then you wouldn't have to haunt a lonely forum such as this and hit your head against a brick wall. Then again, if this is what you like.... what can I say? If you care so much, you would give your life for truth, so write the book. WRITE THE BOOK. Write it under a false name, but at least WRITE IT!!! Do not berate me, do not flame me. I am being honest with the information I've been given and this is my feedback. Please deal with it intelligently. Thanks. BC

The bottom line about my buddy Jimbo is that he knows he is more full of shit than a North Carolina hog farm lagoon. He knows he is lying, making the stuff up as he goes along. He knows nobody here or at the other chemtrail forums even believes him. And let me tell you when you realize that nobody is buying, even on a chemmie forum, well you know you've hit rock-bottom, eh, Jimbo?

I havew always known why Jim was really here. All he really wanted was some good peer-review, which he got from many of us here. The very small tidbits he changed in his story came from us, but what Jim doesn't know is that we let him make a number fatal mistakes in what he has put out. Some obvious boo-boos we didn't even touch or complain about still remain.
Why do you think we'd do that Jimbo?

Things that wait, like a 'poison pill', for a person with good sense or science acumen to bring to the forefront. Things that will make you the laughingstock. Those sorts of little 'land-mines' sit there, untouched.

We watched as you included them here.
We watched as you transmitted them at CTC.
We watched as you wrote them into a webpage.

Jim will never write a book, no publisher would throw good money after a bad idea like that, the test-marketing research already shows it is a flop!

Besides, until he finds all those little slip-ups, all those land-mines, all those poison pills he still has left lying around, he can never be sure when the next debunker will choose to make good use of the back door left ajar! Sweet dreams, Jimmy boy......................

Insurrectionchemistry

02-22-2005, 06:11 PM

jayreynolds

02-22-2005, 06:20 PM

Jimbo, I warned you about this.
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7857&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

When Mech sends his back-stabbing message boy Swampass out to ask you a scientific question, better start watching your back. Somebody will be whispering in his ear what to say 'cause the boy is ignernt as a cracker. His head's been on dope so long he has no idea what planet he's on.

I wouldn't be surprised if Wayne had something to do with it. They could be going after you just to get back at Wayne for busting up their 'Council of Nine(swine)'.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-22-2005, 06:23 PM

Nobody pays any attention to Reynolds bull shit, especially not me.

Even the Co. vapid person gets the UV to CO-2 connections.

Only persons interested in deception would attempt to claim other than this dominate factor.

And the 666 appears across Reynolds' forehead.

jayreynolds

02-22-2005, 06:25 PM

Here we see yet another example of The typical fear mongering of a small petty thug, one who must always include veiled threats to serve his evil needs. A criminal's response.

The true mark of a beast.

One can see how speaking the truth on GW connected to UV burns his tongue and his ego.

Reynolds is finished, he is at the bottom of the Abyss. Reynolds is now A resident of Hell and the symbolic sign of 666.

Hey, no threat, Jimmy boy. Your theory has open back doors in it. Don't blame me, hell I even gave you hints and a warning you left yourself wide open. Not many people would give you a tipoff like that. Stuart knows, Ed knows. probably even whitemajikman knows.

Now it's up to you to figger out where you went wrong!
Good luck sorting out the maze of lies you've built old bean(sucker)!

Insurrectionchemistry

02-22-2005, 06:28 PM

I can't hear you, satan's spheal.

As Reynolds tries to rub the 666 symbols off himself----they run down to his inner core.

He is dissolving right before everyones eyes, like the evil witch on the Wizard of Oz. Lots of hissing and spurting, till nothing left but an old sack of nothing.

jayreynolds

02-22-2005, 06:30 PM

Nobody pays any attention to Reynolds bull shit, especially not me.

Hey Jimmy, who tipped you off about Wayne 'editing' out all the meat from your article before sending it out, eh? You've got to admit it, Stuart, Ed, and I have helped you escape many a pitfall, bud. You never would have known Wayne spends all his days at the cafe spitting out olive seeds and sipping Ouzo If I hadn't brought it out.
You owe me bigtime, saving you from those train wrecks.
All the abuse I've taken from you............
Think about what I've said.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-22-2005, 06:33 PM

blah, blah, blah

Reynolds' wear = stripes

Satan hates:

......D
C - O - M
......E
......W
......A
......T
......C
......H

Boomer Chick

02-22-2005, 06:36 PM

I went back again and checked. yes, this was the link you used to support your idea of a 'sustainable' farm:
http://www.factoryfarm.org/

Look, YOU and footsoldier were the ones who brought up the subject. farming is one of the biggest passions of my life. I know more about agriculture than I know about "Chemtrails". Been there, done that, do it on a daily basis. The reality of the situation is that you really don't know what you are talking about, to put it bluntly. You are exactly the sort of person these sustainable greenies with their fuzzy farming ideas want. I was once where you are now. I subscribed to "Organic Gardening", "Mother Earth News", all of that. This winter I threw out a 3 foot stack of their magazines, some 25 years old.

Their end game is this:

All farmers will be living in straw-bale houses with one bare bulb, a composting toilet and a macrobiotic bowl of brown rice, barley or oats for supper.
No Exterras, no movies, no vacations, no seafood in Colorado and no money for college-bound children.
There won't be any money for new $50,000 tractors, you'll get a mule who can pull your sustainable plow and once a week set out at midnight on your sustainable cart so you can reach the farmer's market by 6AM.
If you get a permit to raise livestock, don't EVEN think you are EVER going to get big. There is no incentive anymore to grow such a farm beyond a certain point. The business of livestock is strictly limited to a small number of animals beyond which you cannot pass or else bear the scorn of being a "FACTORY FARM" and confront a maze of red tape even a lawyer couldn't negotiate . Same for field crops, who do you really think you are,
ARCHER DANIELS MIDLAND?
So why even start anyways? Shut up and eat your macrobiotic rice.
Oh, and when those poor starving Ethiopians, Eritreans, or Sudanese come begging for all those billions of tons of amber waves, where are you going to send them to, some Swedish style socialist paradise?

Move along now, nothing to eat here.....................

What a rant! So you like those HUGE factory farms, do ya? The whole purpose of posting about it was to raise your awareness of the tensions and schisms between the states and feds on this. You get too emotional over something quite simple..... responsible animal husbandry and farming. This is all. The factory farms, don't practice it and the smaller scale farms do and try harder. Period. End of story.... quit your wailing and skreeching over hogs for God's sake! You know darn well there are sustainable farming solutions for everyone and that doesn't relegate them to some poverty level existance, either. Get a grip! What do starving Ethoipians have to do with all of this? GEEZE!

BC :rolleyes:

Boomer Chick

02-22-2005, 06:46 PM

This is my last post on this subject. And Jay, you posted a picture page and I posted a link page. Don't try to get out of it, you know what you did! LOL! No biggy, just want to set the record straight.

Top Ten Reasons
for rural communities to be concerned
about large-scale, corporate hog operations

John Ikerd
Agricultural Economist
University of Missouri, Columbia

I was recently asked by a rural advocacy group in Missouri to "list some logical reasons why county commissioners and other rural community leaders should be concerned about effects of livestock factories?" I considered it to be a reasonable request and thus developed a list of reasons why I think rural residents should question whether or not they want large-scale, corporate hog farms to locate in their communities.

As I indicate in my response to the request, there is no scientific consensus on this issue. Thus, there is no set of scientific "facts" to either "prove or disprove" the validity of these concerns. There is research to support many of the concerns on my list, even though they cannot be proven. Published proceedings from "An Interdisciplinary Scientific Workshop: Understanding the Impacts of Large-scale Swine Production," edited by Kendall Thu, University of Iowa, is a good starting point in reviewing supporting literature. However, most of the concerns on the list are based primarily on logical reasoning and common sense. Some may dismiss these "logical" concerns as illogical, uninformed, or inconsequential. But, such assessments simply represent different "beliefs," not proven facts or some unique knowledge of reality. The people of rural communities have a right and responsibility to weigh the evidence and logic on both sides of this issue and to make their own decisions.

Admittedly, there are reasonable arguments in favor of locating large-scale corporate hog operations in specific rural communities. They include: (a) we need the jobs, (b) we need the tax base, (c) we don’t want to lose our agricultural base, (d) other communities will do it if we don’t, (e) we can’t stand in the way of progress, (f) consumers want uniform quality that only big operations can supply, (g) big operations can better afford modern pollution prevention technologies, and (h) the opposition is just another case of "not in my backyard," selfish thinking. There are logical responses to each of these arguments. However, rather than argue these points, I have chosen to provide a logical list of reasons why rural communities might be concerned about the location of large-scale corporate hog operations in their areas.

A "top ten list" wasn’t chosen just to be cute or catchy. Ten is enough to get the point across, but not so many as to overdo discussion of the issue. Also, I wanted to start at the bottom of my list and work my way to the top.

Concern #10. Hogs stink.

Odor is at the top of the list for many opponents of large-scale hog farms. The most vocal opponents tend to be those affected most directly – those who wake up to the smell of hog manure most every morning. To a hog producer, hog manure may "smell like money," but to the neighbors, it just "smells like hog manure." There are legitimate human health concerns associated with air quality surrounding large hog operations. Thus, the odor problem goes beyond the very real nuisance of living with stench in the air. Odors associated with giant hog farms affect the lives of people for "miles around," not just those on adjoining farms. No one likes living in a community that smells like a cesspool. Few would be willing to stay in, or move into, such a community for any reason other than employment. Odor ranks only 10 on my list because something could possibly be done to mitigate its impacts, such as using odor reducing technologies, compensating those most affected, and restricting location to minimize impacts of the greater community.

Concern #9. The work is not good for people.

A large confinement hog facility is not a pleasant place to work. Known health risks are associated with continuously breathing the air that arises from manure pits in confinement hog facilities. Health problems cost money in lost wages and health care costs. But more important, an unhealthy workplace can destroy peoples’ lives. History has proven that people will choose to work in dangerous work environments when they are desperate for jobs. Health risks can be life threatening, so I rank worker safety above odor problems. But as in the case of odor, health problems can be mitigated by protecting workers from the noxious fumes, by limiting exposure, and by keeping people with other health problems out of confinement facilities.

Concern #8. Piling up too much "stuff" in one-place causes problems.

If you spread out the hogs and let hog manure lay where it falls in a pasture, it doesn’t bother anyone very much. But if you start collecting it, flushing it, spreading and spraying it around – all normal practices in confinement hog operations – it becomes air pollution. Water pollution also is a symptom of the same basic problem -- too much manure in one place. The difference between the lagoon spills in Missouri and North Carolina and the normal runoff from a hog pasture is a simple matter of concentration. When you put a lot of hogs in the same place, you have to collect and store the waste. If it gets into the ground water or gets flushed into streams, it kills fish, clogs streams and lakes with algae, feeds water born disease organism, and wreaks havoc in the environment.

In addition, manure on diversified hog farms normally is spread back onto cropland where the feed grain was grown. Most of the nutrients used to grow the crops are returned to the soil. But, when feed grains from specialized crop farms are shipped to distant hog-factories, the nation’s future productive capacity is being stacked up and flushed out into places where crops can’t grow. We can treat the symptoms – air pollution and water pollution – but the basic problem of piling up too much stuff is inherent within the system of large-scale, concentrated production.

Boomer Chick

02-22-2005, 06:48 PM

Concern #7. Consumers have little if anything to gain.

Large-scale, corporate hog production is frequently justified to the general public as a more efficient, lower cost, means of producing higher quality pork. The facts of the situation simply do not support such a claim. The average consumer spends just over 10 percent, a dime out of each dollar, of their disposable income for food. About 10 percent, a penny out of the dime, is spent for pork. The costs of live hogs make up only about 35 percent of that penny. The rest goes for processing, packaging, advertising, transportation, and other marketing costs.

Farm record data have shown that costs of large-scale hog operations are only slightly lower than costs of "average" commercial hog producers. Even if production costs were five percent less, about $2/cwt of live hog; the "maximum" savings to consumers would be less than two cents per dollar spent for pork at retail. At best, food costs would be two-tenths of one percent less and consumers on average would spend only "two-one-hundredths of one percent" less for food. Any savings would be lost in rounding error in consumer food cost statistics. With a handful of large hog producers and packers gaining control of the industry, it seems far more likely that pork prices would go up than down as a consequence of further industrialization.

The argument that factory pork would be higher in quality doesn’t hold either. Pork would be more uniform because it would all come from the same basic genetic stock, as is currently the case with chickens. However, consumers have different tastes and preferences – different perceptions of quality. Making all pork "the same" would not necessarily please more consumers. Greater profits for producers and processors, not lower costs or higher quality, is the driving force behind the current trend toward industrial hog production. The only ones who really need to shave another penny or two of cost of production costs are those who are trying to export more pork into highly competitive world markets. That doesn’t include many hog farmers or port consumers. So, why should the general public support industrial hog production?

Concern #6. Continuing regulatory problems are inevitable.

Without regulations, big hog operations will impose costs on their neighbors – air pollution, water pollution, and others -- that are not part of the historic costs of producing hogs. It will cost money for hog factories to deal with "externalities" such as air and water pollution. No "bottom-line" driven hog operation will incur those costs unless they are forced to do so by government regulations – federal, state, or local.

Family farmers are people with human feelings and values, and most feel some sense of responsibility to their communities and the environment. Family farmers at least have personal incentives to be stewards of the environment and good neighbors, regardless of how they choose to behave. Public corporations have no such incentives. They are not people. Corporations have no heart or soul. Stockholders often are so detached from their investments they don’t know or care what stocks they own – just as long as they make money. Local managers and workers may be good people who really care about the community, but when it comes to keeping their job, they must put profits and growth ahead of community. Professed corporate support of local communities, by necessity, can be nothing more than another strategy for profit and growth. Thus, government regulation and continual conflict are an inherent fact of corporate life.

Concern #5. Hog factories destroy public confidence in agriculture.

Over the decades, family farmers have built up a vast treasure of public confidence and good will. Many people in the cities either grew up on farms or have parents or other close relatives who either are or were family farmers. The "farm family" conjured up images of people who are hard working, moral, honest, solid, dependable, trustworthy, caring, and responsible. These images have been a valuable source of wealth for farmers – although not widely recognized as such.

Farmers have been awarded special privileges, exemptions, and variances under a whole host of public policies -- from taxation to environmental regulations -- because they were trusted to behave in the public interest. Support of "family farms" has been an important part of the rhetoric of every farm bill that has passed congress. Farmers have also enjoyed a special status "as people," apart from any monetary benefits. They have been respected and trusted. However, bad publicity surrounding large-scale, corporate hog production is using up the farmer’s stock of public confidence and good will at an alarming rate. Negative stories have appeared on every major television network over the past few years. When Ms. Magazine runs a feature article on the ills of corporate hog farming, as they did in a recent issue, we can conclude that the story has just about made the full circuit of public opinion shapers. Family farms will be paying for this loss of public trust for decades, if not forever.

.Concern #4. Future of the community is turned over to outside
interests.

Rural people need to take charge of their own destinies if they expect to sustain a desirable quality of community life for themselves, their children, and future generations of rural Americans. Quality of life is about much more than just creating more jobs and making more money. Quality of life is also about positive moral and social values and being responsible caretakers of the community as a place. Sure, people need jobs and need to make a decent living. But, jobs and high wages didn’t save the cities from decline and decay and jobs won’t save rural communities either. When an apparent solution to a problem comes from someone else, from outside, you can just about bet that the benefits will be going to someone else from outside as well.

Some rich and powerful outsiders have their own problems, and they have their eyes on rural communities as places to solve them. Sparse population, trusting people, and lack of jobs in rural areas are seen as ideal opportunities. They are looking for someplace to "dump stuff." An Industrial society creates a lot of "trash," whether in the form of garbage, toxic chemicals, or hog manure. Most "outsiders" promoting rural development schemes have something they need to "dump." Jobs just aren’t enough compensation for turning a community into a "dump." Rural people need to take control of their own destiny and build the kinds of communities in which their children and their children’s children will choose to live and grow. The solutions to the problems of rural Americans are in the hands, hearts, and minds of rural people themselves, not in outside investment and corporate control.

Concern #3. The decision making process can rip communities apart.

The process of decision making may be more important than the decision itself. Anyone who has been a part of a family has experienced this first hand. The memory of an act that triggered a family feud has long since faded, but the feud goes on. Feuds result from a loss of confidence and trust, regardless of the context within which the loss takes place. The large-scale, corporate hog farm issue is one of the most contentious issues to confront rural America in recent history.

The social fabric of rural communities has been ripped apart by controversy surrounding the introduction of large-scale, corporate hog operations. There seems to be no middle ground. Some people seem determined to bring in the big hog operations, by almost any means, and others seem just as committed to keep them out, by almost any means. Almost everyone eventually seems to feel obligated to take sides. The larger question in such communities is not whether the hog farms come in or stay out, but can the community ever heal the wound left by the fight? A healthy, unified community can deal with almost any problem, including a large-scale corporate hog farm on the outskirts of town. A sick, bitterly divided community is incapable of much more than survival, regardless of its other advantages and opportunities. The future of rural America depends on communities of people being able to work together for their common good. The divisiveness of the decision making process, presumably, could be avoided. But, the consequences of failing to do so are so destructive that it ranks near the top of my list.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-22-2005, 06:53 PM

Boomer Chick

02-22-2005, 06:53 PM

Concern #2. Hog factories degrade the productive capacities of rural
people.

Factories "use up" people. Assembly line work is "non-thinking" work. When you work on an assembly line, you simply do what you are told as fast as you can for as long as you can. I know. I have been there. Large-scale hog operations may not be assembly lines, but the principle is the same. Big hog operators do not want people who know anything about raising hogs. They want people who can be trained to do what they are told to do without thinking. An experienced hog farmer might start thinking, asking questions, and mess up the process. Hog factories, like other factories, are looking for people who are dependable, who know how to carry out orders, and will work hard for a little money.

On balance, large-scale, industrial hog operations destroy more jobs than they create. A driving force behind industrialization is to substitute capital and technology for labor and management – to make it possible for fewer people to produce more. Large-scale hog operations concentrate the jobs created in one place and call it economic development. The jobs lost elsewhere are ignored or denied. The numbers of independent hog farmers displaced elsewhere will be greater than the number of jobs created in new large scale hog operations. Hog factories replace more independent hog farmers with fewer assembly line workers.

Other kinds of factories have come to rural America in the past. When these factories have found people in other regions, or in other countries, who would work even harder for less, they moved on. Corporately owned factories have no roots. They leave behind a workforce that doesn’t know how to do anything other than what they are told. Intelligent, thinking, capable, independent people are transformed into detached, non-thinking people who may be psychologically incapable of earning a living without depending on someone else to tell them what to do. Our cities currently are plagued with such people -- people whose capacities have been degraded by factories long since gone. It just doesn’t seem to make sense to do the same thing to rural people. When we replace independent, family hog farmers with hog factories we are degrading the most valuable resource rural areas have to support future development – rural people.

Concern #1. Tomorrow’s problems are disguised as today’s solution.

My number one concern regarding large-scale, corporate hog operations is that rural communities will see them as "the solution" to today’s problems without seeing them as a potential "source" of problems for tomorrow. Maybe there are some communities so desperate for jobs that it makes sense to take the risks. Maybe they feel they have to do something today to give them a chance to do something better tomorrow. But, hog factories are a short-run solution, at best, that may create more long run problems than they solve today. Low-wage, assembly-line-like jobs should be viewed as a stop gap strategy suitable only for communities with no other options. Sooner or later non-thinking jobs will be done somewhere else on the globe, where people will work harder for less money and are accustomed to doing whatever they are told – by those who have no other options. In the longer run, all non-thinking jobs will be done using computers and robots – not by people anywhere.

The real opportunities for people to lead successful lives in the future will be in "thinking" work. The human mind is uniquely capable of complex thought. Almost anyone is "smarter" than a computer. But, people need to develop their unique human abilities to think. We need to accept the responsibility for thinking and for creating thinking jobs for ourselves and for others. As long as rural people think their problems are solved, or will be solved by someone else, they see no incentive to begin doing the things they need to do to ensure the future of their community.

The primary advantages for rural areas in the twenty-first century will be the unique qualities of life associated with open spaces, clean air, clean water, scenic landscapes, and communities of energetic, thinking, caring people. Communities that sacrifice these long run advantages for short run economic gains may have a difficult time surviving in the new century.

Thus, my number one concern is that large-scale, corporate hog operations are tomorrow’s problem disguised as today’s solution. They may keep rural people from doing the things that need to be done today to ensure the future of their communities. Large-scale, corporate hog operations will not create communities where our children and their children will choose to live and grow. Communities with a future must take positive actions today to ensure a desirable quality of life for themselves, their children, and rural children of future generations.

http://www.ssu.missouri.edu/faculty/jikerd/papers/TOP10.html

______________________

Well, this says it all from a philosophical and economic perspective and if you can't see the logic in this, then so be it.

BC ;)

foot_soldier

02-22-2005, 07:02 PM

Boomer Chick wrote:
.....For now, I'll just say that corporate farms are NOT ma and pop farms.... period.....
Exactly.

Boomer Chick wrote: (emphasis mine -foot_soldier)
.....responsible animal husbandry and farming. This is all. The factory farms don't practice it and the smaller scale farms do and try harder. Period. End of story.... quit your wailing and skreeching over hogs for God's sake! You know darn well there are sustainable farming solutions for everyone and that doesn't relegate them to some poverty level existence, either.....
Again, exactly right.

There is a world of difference between corporate-sponsored AgriBiz and family- or community-owned and operated farms. The organic farmers I know are grateful to simply be able to do what they're doing and sustain it. They get a lot of support from their local communities and also from the increasingly cohesive regional networks that are establishing themselves to support small farmers.

A couple of interesting sites:

Local Harvest
http://www.localharvest.org/

Stolen Harvest
An Interview With Vandana Shiva
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=573

Boomer Chick

02-22-2005, 07:03 PM

The thesis statement for this Forum is:

"Arianna Huffington has just written an article called 'The Pentagon Sounds the Alarm on Global Warming'. At the end of it she says: 'The Democratic nominee needs to remind the White House — and the American people: It’s not nice to fool with Mother Nature.'"

==========

The discussion thread is about global warming and the Pentagon and political games on GW.

It is not about----fishing, hog farms, or heaping up off topic shit.

Trashing the forum with this run on garbage on hog farms is off-topic and for the pure intention of distraction off the GW induced by UV factors.

Spamming to cover up and conceal.

OK, sorry, that's the end of the discussion! It relates to the environment and various laws, the Bush administration's lack of sound policy on environmental policies and the states having to take up the slack, which is precisely the same position the clean air and emissions standards are up against.... lax federal laws and tighter state laws. It does kind of relate. Just like the factory hog farms, the coal burning facilities are allowed loose environmental standards from the Feds.

Yes, back to GW!

Thorry !

BC :shock:

Boomer Chick

02-22-2005, 07:09 PM

Exactly.

Again, exactly right.

There is a world of difference between corporate-sponsored AgriBiz and family- or community-owned and operated farms. The organic farmers I know are grateful to simply be able to do what they're doing and sustain it. They get a lot of support from their local communities and also from the increasingly cohesive regional networks that are establishing themselves to support small farmers.

A couple of interesting sites:

Local Harvest
http://www.localharvest.org/

Stolen Harvest
An Interview With Vandana Shiva
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=573

Thanks, FS. Feels like I'm talking to a brick wall, here. Lots of whining and wailing going on for no good reason, that's for sure! What posturing!

BC :)

foot_soldier

02-22-2005, 07:09 PM

Two more:

National Association of Farmers Markets
http://www.farmersmarkets.net/

Slow Food USA
http://www.slowfoodusa.org/

Insurrectionchemistry

02-22-2005, 07:19 PM

Repeated:

The thesis statement for this Forum is:

"Arianna Huffington has just written an article called 'The Pentagon Sounds the Alarm on Global Warming'. At the end of it she says: 'The Democratic nominee needs to remind the White House — and the American people: It’s not nice to fool with Mother Nature.'"

halva

02-22-2005, 07:27 PM

Halva was just on a fishing trip here with Reynolds. Looking for what Reynolds was attempting to hide and how.

Now that Halva has the entire cause and effect for global warming and its man-made causual factors, he simply has all he needs, and has accomplished all he wanted for this Forums purpose. Which includes the whys and hows for chemtrails.

After all, there is not really much around this Forum's list but extremely nasty and low class individuals that no one of any class would associate on any basis other than the study of what these ugly persons want to hide and how.

I do think several studies are maturing these days.

True enough.

But I don't know what you mean with all this fishing trip stuff. I didn't want to get engaged with Raynolds. I came here to put out a signal to Arianna Huffington and her entourage in the light of her reaction to the so-called 'Pentagon Report'.

It is still an open question to me whether Lady Arianna is a person it has been worth taking all this trouble over. But one thing that is sure is that Boomer Chick is on her wavelength and if Arianna has any potential, BC can find it out.

As for Jim Phelps's writings. Everything important (I presume) that he has to say is on his website, for me to assimilate as much of it as I can. I don't gain anything by continuing to argue here.

My main argument against the biblical aspects of what he says is that it is Bush and company who think their duty is to use the Bible as their guide to political policy, including the war of Armageddon and all that, I suppose.

I have a different idea as to the script we should be following, i.e. that it was written down around these parts where I am sitting now, a few hundred metres away from the Acropolis.

Arianna and I would be in agreement on that, I think.

I often go with my family to Patmos, but I have a better time here in Athens.

foot_soldier

02-22-2005, 07:28 PM

insurrectionchemistry wrote:
.....For instance, many people think that CO-2 emission source terms are the things to cut, but once you know the plankton and UV damage vector, then clearly it is much more effective to go after "Ozone Depleting" substances.

Getting the OD down is a million times more effective than cutting little CO-2 source terms.....
I think there's a lot of truth in this statement.

foot_soldier

02-22-2005, 07:30 PM

Freedom is a state of mind.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-22-2005, 07:33 PM

Halva,

Well, partially true, since you did come here originally to attempt to raise the awareness of Arianna, and gain her attention.

But the countercurrents that don't want that to happen, had to come out to hound your attempts toward that effort. They can't let an outspoken person like Arianna get onto some tangeble factors on just how big the global warming cover up in the US is.

After some period, you just got into the mode that Reynolds gangsters can't run you off, which is commendable. But, it also became a study of their games----and you would tune Reynolds in and out based on attempting to see which game he was going to play.

As for the big game and who wrote it. It is as close as following the money. In the Mediterranean the power over it and really all of Europe was the Vatican and Pope. It was an army with wealth to enforce its will. When the Knights Templer came along they offered a new bank and they became the first multi-national corperation, which threatened the Vatican's power eventually----so they all died.

Nothing really has changed. The new power rally was around the nuclear bomb and the power it had to enforce an economy and a banking system. The Rothschilds and Rockefellers controlled the big bank and financed the building of the nuclear bomb and then the massive overkill in production of them.

Seems the Russians had a competitive idea on who controls the money and power, and it did not include religion.

It is still the very same game of power and control. In the old days, it was Vatican control and power. Now it is the Jews who used to work for the Royal Families of Europe that control the big bank and call the shots on what gets printed in the press and what science gets funded.

The Ruppert Murdocs of the world seed all kinds of misinformation, same tactics go on here.

It is this power and control that seeks to cover up the chemtrails science and the real causes for global warming---because they will have to pay for the damages. An informed public won't be pleased with what has happened, nor to the extent they have been deceived.

Oddly enough, since lots of the damage is due to the Freon problem and DuPont, lots of the damage factors directly connect to Oak Ridge/USAEC as the largest users of Freon. The production of nuclear weapons uranium used lots of Freon for the intercoolers of the process, and they lost a lot of it on the winds.

Oak Ridge uses their Jewish connections with the big banking system to achieve the cover up. Oak Ridge even had direct tie ins with some of the issues on JFK and his shutting down their economic tyranny against the US by this Jewish dominated banker monopoly.

I suppose the Greeks had their own version of this power and control via money and armies for a period of time. Overall, the same games. Greeks had their multiple god icons that expressed the natural parts of their culture's trends. They still gave way, in the end, to the ones with the big money and army.

Same games going down now----with the false god concepts of the Bush anti-Christ. Same rules of power makes right----and not necessarily truth and common sense. The US is playing games for wealth and power----not for truth.

halva

02-22-2005, 07:40 PM

Certainly I think that in my own interest I should be doing something different to what I have been doing.

halva

02-22-2005, 07:58 PM

foot_soldier

02-22-2005, 08:02 PM

insurrectionchemistry wrote:
.....The US is playing games for wealth and power----not for truth.....
Transcend it and move on.

Boomer Chick

02-22-2005, 08:06 PM

I don't think it is very useful advice to be telling Jim Phelps to get on the talk-show circuit. Television talk shows are watched by idle, confused people who don't know what to do with their time. I agree with Catherine Austin Fitts who says that she never watches television.

The only television station in Greece that it is worth watching for two minutes is the parliament channel, except of course when they show parliament. Talks shows are for the clueless.

This is apart from the fact that with what he says about Jews, etc. it is only marginal channels for 'kooks' that would invite Jim Phelps. That isn't meant as a criticism of Jim Phelps but of television.

It is perhaps precisely because so much of the Jew talk is reality-based that one can't afford the luxury of letting it hang out in this way. That is not very intelligent, and is also insulting to the many Jews who are 'on our side'.

I wasn't talking about TV shows, Halva, I was talking about AM talk radio, much of which is on late at night or the early morning hours. Such shows as Coast to Coast Am at http://coasttocoastam.com and the Jeff Rense show and others cater to off the wall theorists. If they sense an anti-Semetic bent, they will probably only cover the other aspects. They've interviewed real live Satanists and other strange theorists, so your input is moot. I know Catherine Austin Fitts, not personally of course, but I get her mailings in my inbox and have heard her on Alex Jones AM talk radio show. TV is not what I was talking about and besides, don't act like an expert on our society when you don't even live here!

BC :rolleyes:

halva

02-22-2005, 08:09 PM

Insurrectionchemistry

02-22-2005, 08:09 PM

Boomer Chick

02-22-2005, 08:11 PM

"Same games going down now----with the false god concepts of the Bush anti-Christ. Same rules of power makes right----and not necessarily truth and common sense. The US is playing games for wealth and power----not for truth." ( IS)

__________________

Amen!

BC ;)

halva

02-22-2005, 08:16 PM

The bottom line about my buddy Jimbo is that he knows he is more full of shit than a North Carolina hog farm lagoon. He knows he is lying, making the stuff up as he goes along. He knows nobody here or at the other chemtrail forums even believes him. And let me tell you when you realize that nobody is buying, even on a chemmie forum, well you know you've hit rock-bottom, eh, Jimbo?

I havew always known why Jim was really here. All he really wanted was some good peer-review, which he got from many of us here. The very small tidbits he changed in his story came from us, but what Jim doesn't know is that we let him make a number fatal mistakes in what he has put out. Some obvious boo-boos we didn't even touch or complain about still remain.
Why do you think we'd do that Jimbo?

Things that wait, like a 'poison pill', for a person with good sense or science acumen to bring to the forefront. Things that will make you the laughingstock. Those sorts of little 'land-mines' sit there, untouched.

We watched as you included them here.
We watched as you transmitted them at CTC.
We watched as you wrote them into a webpage.

Jim will never write a book, no publisher would throw good money after a bad idea like that, the test-marketing research already shows it is a flop!

Besides, until he finds all those little slip-ups, all those land-mines, all those poison pills he still has left lying around, he can never be sure when the next debunker will choose to make good use of the back door left ajar! Sweet dreams, Jimmy boy......................

You and your lot are just being written out, Raynolds. You have placed yourself at the doors to institutions that we don't have to patronise anyway.

halva

02-22-2005, 08:31 PM

One of the problems with "Jews on Our side" is:

Jews have allegence to the oral law, torah, talmud. Which gives rise to the Law of Moser, that says one Jew should not tell on another.

So, even for the Jews that appear to be innocent of what is going on, we don't see any of them telling the whole story. The whole story of the mess going on these days is about Jewish power and control, largely via these Jewish liniage royal families and the Jewish controlled banking, press, and lots of industry.

When the Jews are willing to point out there is a monoply going on that is controlling the US and setting up an economic tyranny in an effort to make a new world ownership, then they might be on our side.

The reality is Jews are on their side, and the end-times and relevations effects are all about the end of the jewish religion.

And the reason it needs to end, is because of this need and zeel for power and control.

It was an effect seen by one of the Royal Family back 2000 years ago, little fella named Jesus saw the writing on the wall.

Some of the Jews appear to be on our side----but given that they might have to give up their religion or totally toss out parts of its claims-----just might put them not too much on our side.

It is a complex problem, which would not be there most likely if there were not this Jewish Royal Family process that seeks a NWO.

OK. Well, let's agree to disagree on this.

I still regard you as someone I have a lot to learn from, so please allow me to believe that the European monarchies also have a role in the proper scheme of things, and that citizens' democracy should and will cease taking sides in the historical dispute between aristocratic monarchies and bourgeois parliaments.

If you can do that you will deprive Raynolds and company of another schism between us in which he can insert his wedge.

You will also show that you can rise above an element of dumbness in a way that Raynolds obviously cannot.

halva

02-22-2005, 08:42 PM

Tri-Valley CAREs Summer Internships Available
Position: Rally Organizer/Event Intern

INTERNSHIP DESCRIPTION:
Tri-Valley CAREs is seeking two qualified interns to help organize a
major rally and march to the Livermore nuclear weapons lab to mark the
60^th anniversary of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Rally
organizers will gain valuable experience into the nuts and bolts of
event organizing. The internship will focus on community outreach,
coalition building and logistical support.

INTERNS WILL GAIN EXPERIENCE IN:
* Coalition Building: The intern will network, phone bank and help
mobilize groups and individuals to the Hiroshima event. In addition, the
intern will work with the national coordinating body on coordinating the
national call to action.
* Media: Intern will gain basic skills in working with media (print, TV
and radio) to cover large events.
*Event Logistics: The intern will gain a general understanding of
logistics required to put on a large scale event.
* Outreach and organizing for peace, disarmament and to stop the local
environmental and health impacts of nuclear weapons activities in the
Bay Area.
* Nuclear Weapons Issues: The intern will learn broadly about nuclear
weapons, disarmament and gain in depth knowledge on nuclear weapons
programs at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.
* Public Speaking: The intern will gain experience in public speaking
and will table the groups' literature at various venues.

BENEFITS: Work with a well-respected, internationally recognized
grassroots organization * Be part of the nuclear abolition movement
locally, nationally and internationally * Gain insight into
environmental and citizens’ monitoring work * Effect positive change
with a group who can support and help you * Learn how to organize * Use
your speaking and writing skills

TRI-VALLEY CAREs INTERNS NEED:
* Experience and interest in social justice campaigns;
* A desire to work for positive change in the world;
* Good communication and organizing skills;
* Willingness to take on responsibility and complete assigned jobs or
duties;
* Reliable transportation, or a willingness to take public transport to
Livermore;

INTERNSHIP AVAILABILITY:
Duration: This internships last 2-3 months. Hours range from 16-32 hours
per week. Schedules are flexible. Interns are required to work at least
one day a week in Livermore (either Wednesday or Thursday) and attend
coalition meetings in Oakland.
Pay/Credit: Internships are unpaid, though some transportation stipends
are available. Credit for many majors can be arranged. Work study forms
must be provided by the intern if applicable

CONTACT: Please send resumes and/or cover letters to: Tara Dorabji,
Outreach Director of Tri-Valley CAREs at 2582 Old First Street,
Livermore, CA 94550, Telephone: (925) 443-7148, Fax: (925) 443-0177
e-mail: tara@trivalleycares.org or visit us at our web site:
www.trivalleycares.org .

Internship applications can be turned in as early as March. Interns will
be selected as applications are received.
* *
*Background: TRI-VALLEY CARE*s was founded in 1983 in Livermore,
California, the site of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, one of
two major U.S. nuclear weapons design facilities. We illuminate the
connection between peace, justice and the environmental, working toward
disarmament, our ultimate goal is to convert LLNL from nuclear weapons
design to an environmentally responsible, peaceful mission.
*T*ri-Valley CAREs members understand the importance of empowering the
community in order to facilitate change within the Lab and the world.
*T*he Livermore nuclear weapons lab has been a site of nonviolent
protest for over two decades. In recent years, protests at Livermore Lab
have swelled in size to combat an aggressive, explicitly offensive U.S.
nuclear policy that in part, is actualized at Livermore Lab. In
specific, Livermore Lab is designing new and modified nuclear weapons,
including low-yield and “bunker busting” bombs.

jayreynolds

02-23-2005, 03:54 AM

The discussion thread is about global warming and the Pentagon and political games on GW.
It is not about----fishing, hog farms, or heaping up off topic shit.
Trashing the forum with this run on garbage on hog farms is off-topic and for the pure intention of distraction off the GW induced by UV factors.
Spamming to cover up and conceal.

Listen, creep. Your buddy Wayne once posted page after page of wizard of oz fairy tales, greek font text and some font my computer couldn't even read. Your own stuff is pixie dust stories. I agree that BC has a habit of doing the 'data dump' where she posts full text articles when all that was needed was a link. Almost all my posts are my own thoughts in afew paragaphs about which I have personal knowledge. See her and FS about the big posts, and they brought the subject up, not me.

The fact remains that these girls just don't know much abou farming. The Missouri guy said it in his preface. He admitted that none of what he had to say about "factory farms" was provable.

halva

02-23-2005, 04:13 AM

Raynolds you have been given a perfect opportunity to cut and run now while the going is still good for you.

You have a stable income base there among your hogs, and BC will come and visit you from time to time to bring the latest news from mainstream society.

Disappear now while there is still time.

Boomer Chick

02-23-2005, 05:27 AM

The transition from nuclear weapons, i.e. bluff weapons, whose purpose is mainly political, to frighten non-religious people with visions of hell-fire, to directed energy weapons, which are the exact opposite, weapons that are used to replicate destructive natural phenomena, so that political responsibility for the destruction can be publicly disavowed and asserted only in private as a bargaining tool, is a transition that is worth theoretical study.

Was the earthquake a couple of days ago in Iran an example of the latter phenomenon?

I wonder the same thing, Halva. According to Mike Malloy, a progressive radio talk show host, live stream at http://www.airamericaradio.com , the Christian media has translated the Iranian earthquake as a sign from God that George Bush represents God's righteousness and justness. Sick! Yet another twisting and turning of Christian ethics and values to support a war machine and a Bush mandate for world dominance. Surely Bush quells the rumors of plans for an Iranian invasion with a strong statement, "...... rediculous," but the earthquake might have indeed been ordered as a form of political pressure. Mike Malloy ranted, "piles of bodies..." regarding the event as though Bush had instigated the quake. I recall another earthquake in Iran not too long ago and wondered if that too, had been engineered.

Indeed it is worth theoretical study, but it would be more than enlightening for all skeptics and "watchers" to know the truth and scientifically verify it. People can talk and theorize all they want, but in order to bring the conversation into the realm of reality and fact, the geological truth of the event remains the definitive explanation..... all else relegated to speculation and empty fantasy.

When you find any geological links, let me know. I'll do a quick search.

BC

BC

jayreynolds

02-23-2005, 05:43 AM

Hey, Wayne, you are the one who brought up forming a campaign against Crichton on THREE messageboards. That would seem to indicate IT IS YOU who are indeed frigtened of what this best-selling author is quite nicely doing to the debate over global warming.

There are hundreds of fantasy websites about "chemtrails", you write essays about this fantasy every few months, but Crichton writes a book, even calls it fiction, you don't do your readers even that courtesy!

From the responses I've gotten after posting at Crichton's board, I'm right on target. Most of the respondents had some trouble actually understanding the logic behind your intentions. Neither Michael or myself is worried about any chemmie campaign. Such a time-waster for your people actually runs in my favor, so bring it on!

Crichton's Tv series, "ER"(emergency room) this past week focused on drug interactions. the show is the biggest medical drama of all time.

A young girl had seizures, and was given a new medication which allowed her to live a full normal life. There was a problem, however. She had undergone a kidney transplant, and the drug which allowed her a normal life also damaged the kidney, which she had gotten from her father because there was no other suitable donor found in four years of searching. The girl was near death and the father was distraught because he only had one kidney left, and his body needed it to survive. he was even willing to donate it and live the rest of his life in dialysis to save the girl.

A young doctor in the ER began an internet campaign against the drug to publicize the interaction, and was called o the carpet by his superiors, who correctly demonstrated that ALL drugs have interactions and risks, some of which aren't foreseen until their release to the public. They also correctly said that progress always entails some risk, however, taking NO ACTION BECAUSE OF RISK bears a burden of risk as well.

In the end, the father blew his brains out in front of the young doctor after asking that his remaining kidney be used to save her. The girl got the transplant. As the show closed, an old man was being treated by the young doctor. The man remarked that, even though he knew there were risks in taking an anti-arthritic drug, using it had enabled him to walk again, he called it a "miracle drug".

Crichton's message in the show ran directly to the recent VIOXX controversy in which a perfecty useful drug was found to have a very small statistical risk for heart patients. Rather than risk lawsuits and simply list the drug as not suitable for heart patients, VIOXX was taken off the market by it's maker. The move did protect heart patients, for whom VIOXX could have simply been eliminated, but as a result of the action, VIOXX's benefits were also denied to those for whom it posed no risk.

This is an example of how Crichton can use his talents as a writer and director to examine social issues, and he does it very well.

Crichton is always looking for a good story line. If I were you, I wouldn't be too surprised
to find the doctors of ER dealing with a freaked out "chemmie" some day..........................
Hey, turns out Michael Crichton was right. 'Sore throat' must be happy, huh, FS?

Boomer Chick

02-23-2005, 05:49 AM

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqinthenews/2005/usuvae/

Magnitude 6.4 - CENTRAL IRAN
2005 February 22 02:25:21 UTC
Preliminary Earthquake Report
U.S. Geological Survey, National Earthquake Information Center
World Data Center for Seismology, Denver

A strong earthquake occurred at 02:25:21 (UTC) on Tuesday, February 22, 2005. The magnitude 6.4 event has been located in CENTRAL IRAN. (This event has been reviewed by a seismologist.)

Magnitude 6.4
Date-Time Tuesday, February 22, 2005 at 02:25:21 (UTC)
= Coordinated Universal Time
Tuesday, February 22, 2005 at 5:55:21 AM
= local time at epicenter
Time of Earthquake in other Time Zones
Location 30.726°N, 56.817°E
Depth 10 km (6.2 miles) set by location program
Region CENTRAL IRAN
Distances
55 km (35 miles) NNW of Kerman, Iran
180 km (110 miles) NE of Sirjan, Iran
260 km (165 miles) ESE of Yazd, Iran
745 km (460 miles) SE of TEHRAN, Iran

Location Uncertainty horizontal +/- 7.3 km (4.5 miles); depth fixed by location program
Parameters Nst=115, Nph=115, Dmin=>999 km, Rmss=1.05 sec, Gp= 40°,
M-type=moment magnitude (Mw), Version=7
Source USGS NEIC (WDCS-D)

Event ID usuvae
Felt Reports At least 400 people killed and many injured in the Kerman province.

http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/bulletin/neic_uvae_ts.html

Magnitude 6.4 CENTRAL IRAN
Tuesday, February 22, 2005 at 02:25:21 UTC
Preliminary Earthquake Report
U.S. Geological Survey, National Earthquake Information Center
World Data Center for Seismology, Denver
This earthquake occurred as the result of stresses generated by the motion of the Arabian plate northward against the Eurasian plate at a rate of 2 to 3 cm/yr (about one inch per year). Deformation of the Earth's crust in response to the plate motion takes place in a broad zone that spans the entire width of Iran and extends into Turkmenistan. Earthquakes occur as the result of both reverse faulting and strike-slip faulting within the zone of deformation. Preliminary analysis of the pattern of seismic-wave radiation from the February 22 earthquake is consistent with the earthquake having been caused by reverse slip on an ENE- or E-striking fault. The fault that caused the earthquake has not yet been identified; the shock took place in a region within which east-trending reverse-faults have been mapped.

The February 22 earthquake is 125 km northwest of the destructive earthquakes of June 11, 1981 (magnitude 6.6, approximately 3,000 deaths) and July 28, 1981 (magnitude 7.3, approximately 1,500 deaths) and about 250 km northwest of the devastating Bam earthquake of December 26, 2003 (magnitude 6.6, over 30,000 deaths).

http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/bulletin/neic_uvae_l.html

_____________________________________________

After viewing the facts, I am not as inclined to entertain the geoengineering theory. However, I do remain open.

Any comments?

BC

jayreynolds

02-23-2005, 05:55 AM

Indeed it is worth theoretical study, but it would be more than enlightening for all skeptics and "watchers" to know the truth and scientifically verify it. People can talk and theorize all they want, but in order to bring the conversation into the realm of reality and fact, the geological truth of the event remains the definitive explanation..... all else relegated to speculation and empty fantasy. When you find any geological links, let me know. I'll do a quick search. BC

Hey, everybody know that Bush's father was a Giants fan and had the Loma Prieta quake in '89 engineered to give his team an advantage. Though he sacrificed hundreds of souls on the altar of the NWO that day, the heroic "Athletics" couldn't be beat. Evil satanic bastards.

Proof, who needs proof?
Vindicatum!

jayreynolds

02-23-2005, 06:02 AM

http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/bulletin/neic_uvae_l.html
After viewing the facts, I am not as inclined to entertain the geoengineering theory. However, I do remain open. Any comments?BC

You expect the USGS to tell you the truth?
Slaves to mammon.
Anything to keep their jobs.
All geologists know earthquakes just don't 'happen' like that.
They are all in on the fix.

If DOE is run by Jews who sacrifice Christian children for fun, spray the whole world even as Jim Phelps topples their Evil Empire from a spare room in his basement, and the Bushes flash satanic code signals in front of millions, anything is possible.

jayreynolds

02-23-2005, 06:11 AM

The reality is Jews are on their side, and the end-times and relevations effects are all about the end of the jewish religion.
And the reason it needs to end, is because of this need and zeel for power and control.

So, Jim Phelps, just how do you plan to bring an end to the Jewish religion?

Maybe you need to follow your leader Al Cuppett's advice:

"P.S. Whatever you do do not go anti-Semitic. God has a COVENANT/deal with that ethnic group. Do not make the mistske of running them down, other than the "biggie" Illuminists, like Greenspan, Waxman, Schumer... You're doing a great work, don't get on the Lord's wrong side by cursing the seed of Abraham. Many do it and they shall be the first ones the NWO catches, as they'll have no Divine help. Bless the little Jew, 'cause he has a Plan that God made for him way back...."
http://www.g-vision.com/newsletter/strange_troops.shtml

Something tells me Cuppett speaks out of both sides of his mouth. "little Jew"........

Insurrectionchemistry

02-23-2005, 06:19 AM

The enhanced rates of earthquakes is just the global warming acting by thermal expansion on Earth's the crust. The huge rate increase in recent times are man induced, by that factor.

====

Getting into the European Royal blood line. Lots of the wealth in Europe is concentrated in a blood line from the Jewish Royalty----the ruling line down from David.

The Vatican in the early days was all run by Jews and supported by this same wealth.

It is the same blood line that I am from----the Guelphs and Welfs of old Europe. The same ones that made up the German Royal Family and the same ones that make up the UK Royal family.

Some like to call this Royal concentration of wealth the "Illuminati" and some like to call them the "Builderburgs," after the posh hotel where they tend to meet each year. It is one in the same, the old royal blood line of David.

So, when I say follow the money for what is happening in the world-----this is the money. Even the Pentagon types when they say follow the money-----this is what they mean.

Most all the Pentagon is set up to protect this line of money power----not the citizens of the US----these are mere pawns to the cause of the elite's money control.

So, how do the Jews get into this problem: 1. They are of the Family of David, and 2. The Jews were the tax collectors and the estate operators for these rich Jews of the Royal line, and 3. they are one big family loyal to only themselves and their riches, and 4. They don't tell on each other and keep problems within themselves. Problems like this GW thing connected to DuPonts be screw up on OD and UV.

So, the Jews have characteristically been loyal to these rich elites of Europe and help them mass their money, power, and control.

It is really a huge family that is all about power, wealth, and money and how to get more and global control.

Bush-43 follows this money elites plan exclusively. In the US, the "new-money" sub-units of the big "old-money" Europeans control are the Bohemian Grove types.

It is this Jewish system that is the problem today, which comprises 80% of the wealth in the world. It sets up a monopoly system for economic tyranny and control, especially of the US and its Fed Res issues to control the US money supply via the Rothschilds connectivity to this Royal bloodline of the Jews.

In the US, the politicians worship this money to get into office. In the case of Bush-43, his daddy was highly associated with killing JFK and this power elite can get him to do all their biddings to keep daddy bush-41 out of prison.

JFK was going to kick the Jewish money machine out of the US, much like Hitler tried to do with it in 1933. JFK was going to end the Fed Res system run by this Jewish money power system, and he was going to stop the Israel nuke bomb, and he was going to tell the public about how that system interferred with their freedom.

Then the US got Johnson, who was loyal to the Jewish system and liked making wars for the Rothchilds methods of conquests. Then Reagan, who was big on Jewish money protection and games. Now, it is the worst of them all Bush, the anti-Christ.

The Manhattan Project would not have been possible except for all the wealth put into trying to keep this European system of wealth in power. The money to make the bomb was all put up by this Jewish dominated wealth system to secure their control of Europe and the US. The bomb then became the weapon of most power and the security for their econonmic power.

It was a version of the old Knights Templer and their banking system, where their army was a guarantee that the money would be there.

And we can go back to even Egypt and find the same games going on between money and religion in the times of the Temples of Karnak. All the rulers that came to power, had to put lots of money into the religion game and the religion game was about massing the money and power. It is the very same system model for what is going on today.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-23-2005, 06:31 AM

Reynolds is becoming so pathetic.

halva

02-23-2005, 07:06 AM

Reynolds is becoming so pathetic.

Yes, but so far he is not meeting with any resistance as he inserts his 'anti-Semitism' wedge between us.

Do we have our deal to agree to differ vis a vis the Jews and European Royalty, etc. etc.

Or are you still insisting on converting me?

I am not insisting that you become a Marxist.

Must I become an anti-Semite?

Did you ever read the Autobiography of Malcolm X and his account of the disagreement towards the end with the Jewish girl who wanted to support him?

I already told you that most of what you say about the Jews is too true for us to be able to afford the luxury of anti-Semitism.

halva

02-23-2005, 07:17 AM

After viewing the facts, I am not as inclined to entertain the geoengineering theory. However, I do remain open.

Any comments?

BC

BC I don't want to say anything different to Jim Phelps on this subject. I am not prioritizing looking into it at this moment.

Boomer Chick

02-23-2005, 07:18 AM

TSK! TSK!!

I hear you, Jaybo! I know..... just trying to insert some factual mantra here. These are trying times for many folk and some look to speculative theories to explain coincident events. There have been statements made by government officials regarding geoengineering, Jay, so it's not totally a wacko knee-jerk reaction.

The wacko Christians and the wacko geo-HAARP theorists tend to balance one another on the teeter totter of the times. At the fulcrum reigns science and reality accessed through the imagination. Freedom in thought stimulates creativity, invention, and investigation, which in the long run and the scheme of human events and adaptation offers a greater and wider avenue for understanding, evolutionary progression of consciousness, and accomplishement in all areas of human development. Without the imagination, without freedom of thought, without considering what the run-of-the-mill citizen robot hasn't even dreamed of........science itself would have lain dormant and our understanding of the planet and universe relegated to flat earth concepts. The cultural arts would have slept and the secrets of the cosmos locked in a box labelled incorrectly.

Appreciate the wackos in life, the ones who wonder, the ones who speculate and push the envelope of imagination and thought, who open to speculative theories on all things. There's a fine line between paranoia/pure fantasy and hidden, less overt realities.

Just a reminder. Tolerance and flexibility helps us all. In essence the underlying reminder is the message of compassion.

Peace my brother, peace

BC :)

Insurrectionchemistry

02-23-2005, 08:23 AM

Halva writes:

Do we have our deal to agree to differ vis a vis the Jews and European Royalty, etc. etc.
========
You can differ all you want to on anything. I don't set your personal values.
However, when you do make statements that I differ with, I may add my opinions as well to counter yours in some cases.

One does not have to have a deal to differ, it happens naturally.

Or are you still insisting on converting me?
=========
I cannot convert you to anything. However, when you leave out pertinent bits of data, I can supply those along with or over and above yours.

I am not insisting that you become a Marxist.
=========
I am only after truth and how mother nature sees things. I don't care if your Marxist, Greek-othodox, muslum, or atheist. If you say something that appears off, I will make comments about it.
Even when you insist on sitting on your head on certain aspects of learning sciences, I have comments.

Must I become an anti-Semite?
=============

You can be anything you want----including wrong. This is a Forum where opinions are expressed. If I happen to tell the real links on religion, the rich elites uses for religions, and how the effect is a pattern down through time and you don't.

Well, that only means one told part of the story and the other was after the full story.

I don't think there can be more than one ultimate overriding truth.

And, you can use partial truths, and you can always expect to hear the rest of the story.

So, it goes.

If you think seeking the truth can be used by crooked ole Reynolds to divide something-----then there is a bit of the truth missing somewhere. Cause, if all are commited to truth, then one outcome is the result.

When one person falls short of the ultimate truth, then multiple outcomes and division.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-23-2005, 08:36 AM

Halva writes:

Did you ever read the Autobiography of Malcolm X and his account of the disagreement towards the end with the Jewish girl who wanted to support him?
========
No, and I don't plan to. The issue of a Jewish girl supporting Malcolm X means little. If a Jewish person was totally honest and open as to the problems in that religion, the person could not be Jewish. Which was the bottom line of the Jesus pontifications.

I happen to agree with that assessment.

I already told you that most of what you say about the Jews is too true for us to be able to afford the luxury of anti-Semitism.
===========

So, we agree on some parts and the debate of differing opionions goes on.

I just tell it like it is and not ever differently. Long standing problems exist in the Jewish belief system, long noted throughout history.

The time of the Jews is long past and it should have been long gone, but for these games with Holocausts and anti-semitic diatribe languages. One needs to be totally frank with the Jews and tell them----it is time to end the big lie. Convert----or fix the lies in the religion.

Just like you perhaps learned the UV factor on GW was signifcant, so shall you find other things that will fall into place over time.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-23-2005, 09:23 AM

Golden Rule=Thou shalt not capitulate to rogues and thieves.

Nobody in their right mind would to give in to the Reynolds thugs on any issue of truth, especially this diatribe on anti-semitic BS.

jayreynolds

02-23-2005, 10:02 AM

Hey, jimbo.
I'm wondering what you say about the biblical proscription on eating the flesh of pigs and rabbits.
Do you believe that leviticus says these animals are unclean and that eating them is an abomination?
Just wondering, does God really hate lobsters?
http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/
"Pinch the Head
Suck the Tail
Burn in Hell"

jayreynolds

02-23-2005, 10:52 AM

Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting (http://www.imageshack.us)

Wow, Yaak, this one looks like thousands of angel hands beckoning one into heavenly bliss!
Beautiful!

Boomer Chick

02-23-2005, 11:47 AM

Gorgeous, Yaak! Wow! Really enjoyed your little travel excursion. Honestly, I'm quite thankful you shared such beauty with us! Yeah, those finger clouds were unusual.... hmmmmm... they say the angels rule the winds and clouds.

:) ;) :)

Here's some humor for all of you :

Four novice nuns were about to take their vows. Dressed in their white
> gowns, they came into the chapel with the Mother Superior, and were
> about to undergo the ceremony to marry them to Jesus, making them
> "brides of Christ."
>
>
> Just as the ceremony was about to begin, four Hasidic Jews with
> yarmulkes (skull caps), long sideburns and long beards came in and sat
> in the front row.
>
>
> The Mother Superior said to them, "I am honored that you would want to
> share this experience with us, but do you mind if I ask you why you
> came?"
>
>
> One of the Jews replied, "We're from the groom's family."

BC ;)

stuart_allsop

02-23-2005, 12:11 PM

TIME TO DUMP THE TRASH: KYOTO MUST GO.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,147995,00.html

"Both global warming skeptics and advocates agree that the potential amount of warming that hypothetically might be avoided through Kyoto Protocol implementation is roughly 0.07 degrees centigrade by the year 2050.

So to be able to show any activity on the clock, we had to go out nine places to the right of the decimal point ? that would be potential temperature changes on the order of a billionth of one degree Centigrade.

Combined, the two counters indicate that the Kyoto Protocol costs roughly $100,000 to "prevent" just one-billionth of a degree of warming."

Amazing what a litle politcal power play will do, isn't it?

The clock are over here: http://junkscience.com/MSU_Temps/Kyoto_Count_Up.htm

Boomer Chick

02-23-2005, 02:52 PM

A cute and clever joke, Boomer.:lol:

Here is where I got the action emoticons: http://p208.ezboard.com/btobenamedlater
I downloaded them a couple of years ago. I don't know if it's possible to access them anymore.

Thanks, Yaak! I went to the link and it said I had to be an ezboard member. Is this an ezboard? I have no idea.... duh! Isn't the contrail/chemtrails board an exboard? I'm no longer a member there, so I guess I'll find a place to download those emoticons somewhere else, but appreciate the link!

Lovely, lovely pics!

Read Arianna's latest.... posted it ! OMG! It's sooooooooo witty and satirically biting! God, she can write!

BC :D

stuart_allsop

02-23-2005, 03:15 PM

I wonder the same thing, Halva .... but the earthquake might have indeed been ordered as a form of political pressure. ... I recall another earthquake in Iran not too long ago and wondered if that too, had been engineered.
How do you start an earthquake, BC? I mean, even the most powerful energy source available to man, the hydrogen bomb, doesn't cut it, so how do you do it? For decades scientists all around the world have beene exploding the biggest and baddest atomic bombs underground, without starting any earthquakes, barely producing much more tha a seismic ripple. So if the most extreme intense source of energy that we can come up with doesn't do it, then what does?

Next question: Do you have even the vaguest inkling of just how much energy is released in the average earthquake, and just how much energy it takes to do that? Hint: Rough aproximations of the amount of energy involved in the Tsunami earthquake are in the range of the equivalent of MILLIONS of atomic bombs.

Third question: The deepest that Man has managed to dig into the Earths crust is a gold mine in South Africa, called Western Deep Levels, that runs down to about 11 kilometers or so, if I recall correctly, and has taken more than a century to dig. The epicenter of the earthquake in Iran was about 42 kilometeres down. How did they manage to dig down four times deeper than the deepest hole on Earth to plane whatever it is that you think they planted down there? And how did they (whoever "they" is) manage to do this smacke bang in the middle of Iran, without the Iranians or any one else noticing? More to the point, an earthquake just 41 kilometers down is not really deep at all. Many occur at depths of hundreds of kilometeres. How do you explain those?

If you can answer those questions honestly with believable answers, then sure, by all means, let's start studying your newly invented science of seismo-warfare, to see how it works. But it is pointless even thinking about such a field of research if you cannot first come up with a plausible source of energy (about the size of a million H-bombs), and a plausible way of digging down 41 km to plant it there and explode it. All for what? To kill 500 peasants in some remote villages?

I don't think so. I give chemtrails and UFO's far more credibility than I do the idea that puny little Man can command anywhere near enough energy to simulate or even trigger an earthquake!

stuart_allsop

02-23-2005, 03:28 PM

The enhanced rates of earthquakes is just the global warming acting by thermal expansion on Earth's the crust. The huge rate increase in recent times are man induced, by that factor.

Oh Cool! Remember, folks, you saw it here first! The makings of a Brand New Scam, and it's an Original Jim Phelps Scam too!

Follow the bouncing ball, folks, as he tries to spin a new web in uncharted territory! Where will he get a chart from to support his claim of a "huge rate increase" in earthquakes? How will he explain away the fact that atmospheric temperature of the earth is today COLDER than it was millenia ago when earthqueakes were rampant all over, and yet it is also much HOTTER today than at other times in history where earthquakes were equally rampant? How is he going to deal with the issue that the miniscule increase in average temperature over the last thousand years (the increase amounts to just a tiny fraction of one percent of today's average temperature) has been seen numerous times before in the history of our planet, yet it was not accompanied by "huge rate increases" in earthquakes?

Stay tuned folks! This is gonna be a good one! I'm just itching to see what new theories he's gonna invent along the way to explain all this stuff!

Don't touch that dial! We'll be right back after this brief message from our sponsors....

Boomer Chick

02-23-2005, 03:45 PM

How do you start an earthquake, BC? I mean, even the most powerful energy source available to man, the hydrogen bomb, doesn't cut it, so how do you do it? For decades scientists all around the world have beene exploding the biggest and baddest atomic bombs underground, without starting any earthquakes, barely producing much more tha a seismic ripple. So if the most extreme intense source of energy that we can come up with doesn't do it, then what does?

Next question: Do you have even the vaguest inkling of just how much energy is released in the average earthquake, and just how much energy it takes to do that? Hint: Rough aproximations of the amount of energy involved in the Tsunami earthquake are in the range of the equivalent of MILLIONS of atomic bombs.

Third question: The deepest that Man has managed to dig into the Earths crust is a gold mine in South Africa, called Western Deep Levels, that runs down to about 11 kilometers or so, if I recall correctly, and has taken more than a century to dig. The epicenter of the earthquake in Iran was about 42 kilometeres down. How did they manage to dig down four times deeper than the deepest hole on Earth to plane whatever it is that you think they planted down there? And how did they (whoever "they" is) manage to do this smacke bang in the middle of Iran, without the Iranians or any one else noticing? More to the point, an earthquake just 41 kilometers down is not really deep at all. Many occur at depths of hundreds of kilometeres. How do you explain those?

If you can answer those questions honestly with believable answers, then sure, by all means, let's start studying your newly invented science of seismo-warfare, to see how it works. But it is pointless even thinking about such a field of research if you cannot first come up with a plausible source of energy (about the size of a million H-bombs), and a plausible way of digging down 41 km to plant it there and explode it. All for what? To kill 500 peasants in some remote villages?

I don't think so. I give chemtrails and UFO's far more credibility than I do the idea that puny little Man can command anywhere near enough energy to simulate or even trigger an earthquake!

SCHWEEETIE!!! How U B ??? Actually, the argument is moot.... I looked up the geo-facts on the event and gave up my wondering on the issue. However, considering that matter can be influenced by energies and is an energy of a more slowly vibrating nature, and considering that fault zones COULD be pulsated by microwaves or other low frequency energy transmissions I wouldn't in my most shallow imagination doubt that the technology in the hands of certain scientists even today COULD influence the zones already under immense pressure no matter how deep within the earth's crust. Tell, me oh Stuart, my philosopher/scientist that indeed it is NOT possible. And please provide links!!!! ROFLMBO!!!!

And, if this is a possibility, would it not then seem humane to lightly pulse areas now under stress to create tiny quakes to relieve pressure rather than build it up into a large siesmic quake, hurting people and buildings? This does not refer to Iran in any way.

Frankly, I don't want to spend time looking it up, but I know of even political figures in our country who have mentioned such technological advancements. Is this what you want to discuss at this point? Let me know.

Are you declaring a link war here? LOL!

Oh! Digging is not necessary. And yes, the energy released in 5+ seismic quakes is immense, and it is totally earth created.... huge plate techtonics involved. GEEZE, I'm not a total dummy nor am I a "Core" fan.... what a looney movie!

Did you read my geological links on the quake? I even went to the Iranian sites as well. Very fascinating!

BC :)

Insurrectionchemistry

02-23-2005, 05:09 PM

Well now, isn't this interesting. We have the Reynolds' Mafia members admitting to working together, conspiring, to hide the HF effects.

And one even says the information is only 10% off or 90% correct.

It appears they admit to the truth contained and their comprehension of it.

What is even more interesting, is in the Kyoto debates----either the Reynolds Mafia is going to have to give the HF and UV factors secrets for the global warming games-------or Kyoto is going to go after the poorer control methods for global warming.

Humm----trapped they appear.

jayreynolds

02-23-2005, 06:05 PM

(Hmmm, this must be what's keeping Jimbo occupied.)

Now you can understand why we kept you so busy with your HF hoax, Jimmy. There is one very deadly 'poison pill', much more poisonous than the many little slip-ups you have made, that appears in maybe 10-20% of your posts. Remind me when we get to page 1000, and I'll tell you what it is (for all the good it will do you).

Um, Jimbo. Do a double take buddy.
Nobody said that only 10-20% of your stuff was wrong. LOL!

eckartjr

02-23-2005, 06:13 PM

Re: It's not nice to fool with Mother NatureRe: It's not nice to fool with Mother NatureRe: It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HAARP To Install
516 More Antennas
2-13-5

Note - That's over and above the 132 that were just installed last year. And that's over and above the original 48 antennas that were perfectly adequate to fry the earth many times over.

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/
Antenna Products Corporation Awarded Contract

Feb. 7, 2005

FORT WORTH, Tx (BUSINESS WIRE) -- PHAZAR CORP announced today that Antenna Products Corporation in Mineral Wells, Texas, a wholly owned subsidiary, was recently awarded a $3,723,531 firm fixed price subcontract from BAE SYSTEMS ATI for the production of 270 Low Band Antenna Matching Unit Assemblies and 346 High Band Antenna Matching Unit Assemblies. This equipment will be manufactured at Antenna Product Corporation's plant in Mineral Wells, Texas, and deliveries are scheduled to begin in June, 2005 and continue monthly through September, 2005. The equipment will be shipped to the High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) ionospheric research site near Gakona, Alaska, the site of the recently completed installation of an array of 132 crossed dipole antennas built and installed by Antenna Products Corporation in 2004.

As the result of this order, Antenna Products Corporation's backlog of orders as of Feb. 4, 2005 was approximately $5.9 million.

Information on PHAZAR CORP is available on the Internet web page at www.phazar.com and at www.antennaproducts.com.

The common stock of PHAZAR CORP is listed on the NASDAQ SmallCap Market under the trading symbol "ANTP." This press release contains forward-looking information within the meaning of Section 29A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Forward-looking statements include statements concerning plans, objectives, goals, strategies, future events or performances and underlying assumption and other statements, which are other than statements of historical facts. Certain statements contained herein are forward-looking statements and, accordingly, involve risks and uncertainties, which could cause actual results, or outcomes to differ materially from those expressed in the forward-looking statements. The Company's expectations, beliefs and projections are expressed in good faith and are believed by the Company to have a reasonable basis, including without limitations, management's examination of historical operating trends, data contained in the Company's records and other data available from third parties, but there can be no assurance that management's expectations, beliefs or projections will result, or be achieved, or accomplished.

Contacts
Antenna Products Corporation
Kathy Kindle, 940-325-3301
Fax: 940-325-0716
kindle@antennaproducts.com
_________________
"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a friend of mine"
~ Che GuevaraHAARP

jayreynolds

02-23-2005, 06:16 PM

"Both global warming skeptics and advocates agree that the potential amount of warming that hypothetically might be avoided through Kyoto Protocol implementation is roughly 0.07 degrees centigrade by the year 2050.
Wayne, Footsoldier, is this truly what you people were protesting about? A virtual freeze on our economy for a measly 7/100ths of a degree over fifty years?

And if airplane contrail-produced cirrus only produces a fraction of purported anthropogenic effects, then ending air tarvel altogetyer would only improve another .007 degrees?
You folks gotta be kidding. NO ONE IS THAT STUPID, ARE THEY???

eckartjr

02-23-2005, 06:17 PM

[SIZE=3][COLOR=RoyalBlue]Re: Climate Change

You realize I have to mention HAARP in this scenario. So let's get it over with. I chose Chossudovsky's assumptive piece to start with. I like how he says there's no proof, yet. Well, I think his latest treatise would say something different, don't you? Notice that this college professor uses Begich's and Bertell's work, even before their latest book, it seems.

It's not only greenhouse gas emissions: Washington's new world order weapons
have the ability to trigger climate change.

By Michel Chossudovsky - Professor of Economics, University of Ottawa and TFF associate, author of The Globalization of Poverty, second edition, Common Courage Press

The important debate on global warming under UN auspices provides but a partial picture of climate change; in addition to the devastating impacts of greenhouse gas emissions on the ozone layer, the World's climate can now be
modified as part of a new generation of sophisticated "non-lethal weapons." Both the Americans and the Russians have developed capabilities to manipulate the World's climate.

In the US, the technology is being perfected under the High-frequency Active Aural Research Program (HAARP) as part of the ("Star Wars") Strategic Defence Initiative (SDI). Recent scientific evidence suggests that HAARP is fully operational and has the ability of potentially triggering floods, droughts, hurricanes and earthquakes.

HAARP IS A MASS DESTRUCTIVE WEAPON - NOT PART OF ANY NEGOTIATIONS

From a military standpoint, HAARP is a weapon of mass destruction. Potentially, it constitutes an instrument of conquest capable of selectively destabilising agricultural and ecological systems of entire regions.

While there is no evidence that this deadly technology has been used, surely the United Nations should be addressing the issue of "environmental warfare" alongside the debate on the climatic impacts of greenhouse gases.

Despite a vast body of scientific knowledge, the issue of deliberate climatic manipulations for military use has never been explicitly part of the UN agenda on climate change. Neither the official delegations nor the environmental action groups participating in the Hague Conference on Climate Change (CO6) (November 2000) have raised the broad issue of "weather warfare" or "environmental modification techniques (ENMOD)" as relevant to an understanding of climate change.

The clash between official negotiators, environmentalists and American business lobbies has centered on Washington's outright refusal to abide by commitments on carbon dioxide reduction targets under the 1997 Kyoto protocol.(1) The impacts of military technologies on the World's climate are not an object of discussion or concern. Narrowly confined to greenhouse gases, the ongoing debate on climate change serves Washington's strategic and defense objectives.

"WEATHER WARFARE"

World renowned scientist Dr. Rosalie Bertell confirms that "US military scientists are working on weather systems as a potential weapon. The methods include
the enhancing of storms and the diverting of vapor rivers in the Earth's atmosphere to produce targeted droughts or floods."(2)

Already in the 1970s, former National Security advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski had foreseen in his book "Between Two Ages" that:

"Technology will make available, to the leaders of major nations, techniques for conducting secret warfare, of which only a bare minimum of the security forces need be appraised... Techniques of weather modification could be employed to produce prolonged periods of drought or storm. "

Marc Filterman, a former French military officer, outlines several types of "unconventional weapons" using radio frequencies. He refers to "weather war," indicating that the U.S. and the Soviet Union had already "mastered the know-how needed to unleash sudden climate changes (hurricanes, drought) in the early 1980s." (3) These technologies make it "possible to trigger atmospheric disturbances by using Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) radar [waves]." (4)

A simulation study of future defense "scenarios" commissioned for the US Air Force calls for: "US aerospace forces to 'own the weather' by capitalizing on emerging technologies and focusing development of those technologies to war-fighting applications." From enhancing friendly operations or disrupting those of the enemy via small-scale tailoring of natural weather patterns to complete dominance of global communications and counterspace control, weather-modification offers the war fighter a wide-range of possible options to defeat or coerce an adversary. In the United States, weather-modification will likely become a part of national security policy with both domestic and international applications. Our government will pursue such a policy, depending on its interests, at various levels. (5)

THE HIGH-FREQUENCY ACTIVE AURAL RESEARCH PROGRAM - HAARP

The High-Frequency Active Aural Research Program (HAARP) based in Gokoma Alaska-jointly managed by the US Air Force and the US Navy-is part of a new generation of sophisticated weaponry under the US Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI). Operated by the Air Force Research Laboratory's Space Vehicles Directorate, HAARP constitutes a system of powerful antennas capable of creating "controlled local modifications of the ionosphere".

Scientist Dr. Nicholas Begich-actively involved in the public campaign against HAARP-describes HAARP as: "A super-powerful radiowave-beaming technology that lifts areas of the ionosphere (upper layer of the atmosphere) by focusing a beam and heating those areas. Electromagnetic waves then bounce back onto earth and penetrate everything-living and dead." (6)

Dr. Rosalie Bertell depicts HAARP as "a gigantic heater that can cause major disruption in the ionosphere, creating not just holes, but long incisions in the protective layer that keeps deadly radiation from bombarding the planet." (7)

MISLEADING PUBLIC OPINION

HAARP has been presented to public opinion as a program of scientific and academic research. US military documents seem to suggest, however, that HAARP's main objective is to "exploit the ionosphere for Department of Defense purposes." ( Without explicitly referring to the HAARP program, a US Air Force study points to the use of "induced ionospheric modifications" as a means of altering weather patterns as well as disrupting enemy communications and radar.(9)

According to Dr. Rosalie Bertell, HAARP is part of a integrated weapons' system, which has potentially devastating environmental consequences: "It is related to fifty years of intensive and increasingly destructive programs to understand and control the upper atmosphere. It would be rash not to associate HAARP with the space laboratory construction which is separately being planned by the United States. HAARP is an integral part of a long history of space research and development of a deliberate military nature.

The military implications of combining these projects is alarming. The ability of the HAARP / Spacelab/ rocket combination to deliver very large amount of energy, comparable to a nuclear bomb, anywhere on earth via laser and particle beams, are frightening. The project is likely to be "sold" to the public as a space shield against incoming weapons, or, for the more gullible, a device for repairing the ozone layer. (10)

In addition to weather manipulation, HAARP has a number of related uses: "HAARP could contribute to climate change by intensively bombarding the atmosphere with high-frequency rays. Returning low-frequency waves at high intensity could also affect people's brains, and effects on tectonic movements cannot be ruled out. (11).

More generally, HAARP has the ability of modifying the World's electro-magnetic field. It is part of an arsenal of "electronic weapons" which US military researchers consider a "gentler and kinder warfare". (12)

WEAPONS OF THE NEW WORLD ORDER

HAARP is part of the weapons arsenal of the New World Order under the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI). From military command points in the US, entire national economies could potentially be destabilized through climatic manipulations. More importantly, the latter can be implemented without the knowledge of the enemy, at minimal cost and without engaging military personnel and equipment as in a conventional war. The use of HAARP-if it were to be applied-could have potentially devastating impacts on the World's climate.

Responding to US economic and strategic interests, it could be used to selectively modify climate in different parts of the World resulting in the destabilization of agricultural and ecological systems. It is also worth noting that the US Department of Defense has allocated substantial resources to the development of intelligence and monitoring systems on weather changes. NASA and the Department of Defense's National Imagery and Mapping Agency (NIMA) are working on "imagery for studies of flooding, erosion, land-slide hazards, earthquakes, ecological zones, weather forecasts, and climate change" with data relayed from satellites. (13)

Insurrectionchemistry

02-23-2005, 06:41 PM

So, do let me get this correct, for the record.

Yaak and Jay Reynolds and his Mafia have read the issues of UV inducing global warming factors and categorically deny these exist.

Plus, they intend to conspired and to act as a team to attack persons that speak to this being the major problem, UV and HF.

Is this your intention?

Boomer Chick

02-23-2005, 06:57 PM

halva

02-23-2005, 07:41 PM

Boomer Chick

02-23-2005, 08:07 PM

I found this quite old link on HAARP to quite informative, though you have to sift:

http://home.stny.rr.com/physics/Warning/haarp.html

Further research reveals that starting in the late 1960's, US and Soviet scientists began a series of joint efforts to warm up the Arctic (documented in Lowell Ponte's 1976 book, "The Cooling"). At the 1974 Vladivostok Summit, US and Soviet leaders began weather engineering operations. By the late 1970's, the US joined in it's own weather-modifying ELF signals.

To improve joint electromagnetic weather-control actions, the US brought a number of Russian scientists to work at the top-secret Lawrence Livermore high-tech weapons laboratory . Although the project was officially disguised as "environmental cleanup research," the real purpose of the joint Russian/US project has been kept secret from the American people.

The plan to use Russian technology was described in the 4/8/93 Journal of Commerce & Commercial Bulletin:

"During the Cold War, in the closed research laboratory of the Gorky, Russian military scientists developed the 'Gyrotron'; a high-energy microwave generator designed to sweep the skies of Western warplanes [using Tesla scalar-wave technology].

"Today, at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, American military scientists are weighing a Russian proposal to use those generators for a new mission -- cleansing the atmosphere of ozone- depleting chemicals [CFC's]. The Lawrence Livermore scientists began collaborating with their Russian counterparts last year, travelling to Russian research centers, engaging in joint projects..."

The new HAARP weather-engineering system, now under construction in Alaska, will have (among it's numerous functions) the clear capacity to zap pollution and will also be able to increase or decrease upper atmospheric ozone levels at will. In fact, the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory's secret 21-member US/Soviet "Project Woodpecker" team in charge of the project just won a special award from both the CIA and the NSA for their efforts.

_________________________

What do you think, IS?

_________________________

Interesting article on plate tectonics in the Indian Ocean. The article was written in '95.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/pr/95/18688.html

__________________________

The book Reynold's could have written:

http://farshores.org/schem.htm

___________________________

The prophesied and psychic's guide to earth changes :

http://www.extraterrestrial.ca/earthchanges.html

Excerpt:

So let’s proceed to evaluate the possible environmental impacts of a new generation of secret electromagnetic (EM) strategic weapons. Environmental weapons, now replacing nuclear arsenals as the weapons systems of the future, if misapplied, may be the trigger of the process of cataclysmic Earth changes.
Electromagnetic weapons are based upon creating charged electromagnetic energy, of varying frequencies according to use, and directing onto a target of choice. Some of the early weapons systems have use extremely low frequency (ELF) waves, and have been used for population control at a distance.
The Woodpecker series of ELF weapons programs by the former Soviet Union in the 1970s directed ELF waves at key brain-wave rhythms at US West Coast cities such as Eugene, Oregon, with the objectives of inducing mind-altering fear or ill health effects in the population.
Since then, these tactical electromagnetic weapons have grown into strategic weapons systems, capable of monitoring global missile activity; inducing population control in continent-size areas, and causing destructive effects against an enemy target ultimately at the scale of nuclear weapons. Electromagnetic weapons systems are becoming the strategic weapon of the future, replacing nuclear weapons for a number of perceived reasons. All major players on the global weapons scene are developing environmental weapons systems. Weapons systems are developed either by individual nations, or by cooperatives of nations.
One prominent electromagnetic weapons system of the US is HAARP (for High-frequency Active Aural Research Project), located in a remote region of Alaska. Started under official cover as “a study of the aurora borealis,” HAARP is, in fact, a secret attempt to make the ionosphere into a strategic weapon itself. The results could be cataclysmic.
HAARP is intended to super-heat the ionosphere by using impulses of electromagnetic energy. The concept is to turn the ionosphere, a 600-mile thick band of electrons surrounding the Earth, into a global antenna for detecting missile and other hostile activity anywhere on Earth. According to some critics, HAARP can also be used as a global population control weapon, directing electromagnetic impulses at target population on certain brain-wave frequencies to induce fear, apathy, and other mind-states.
Environmental impact and Earth sciences analysis of HAARP indicates that this weapon system may set off the very sort of processes in the delicate atmospheric and magnetic ecology of the Earth that could induce large-scale Earth changes. These include super-heating of the ionosphere and consequent twisting and distortion of electromagnetic fields surrounding the Earth. The twisting of Earth’s electromagnetic fields may induce a tilt in the surface Earth tectonic processes, inducing tectonic shifts and earthquakes. The electromagnetic energy could also induce resonant frequencies in the upper Earth, triggering earthquakes.
Although HAARP is, as the 20th century closes, in its development and testing stages, in some ways, HAARP is like the Manhattan Project undertaken by the Allies in World War II to develop nuclear weapons. HAARP has been undertaken in extreme secrecy, in the name of future security. The difference between the two is that the secrecy around HAARP is designed to keep the world’s populations ignorant of the next generation of weapons. For if world public opinion were to know of the drastic consequences of a war fought with electromagnetic weapons, it is likely that the same grass-roots forces which threw cruise missiles out of Europe would stop HAARP as well.

__________________________________

I'll be reading the above book and the next one for this evening... while I listen to the George Harrison tribute concert.

BC :D

Insurrectionchemistry

02-23-2005, 08:10 PM

The most important part of HAARP is this effect and the ozone production effects:

http://home.stny.rr.com/physics/Warning/haarp.html

" Among other things, the 1987 patent states, "Large regions of the upper atmosphere could be lifted to an unexpected high altitude...weather modification is possible, by for example altering the upper atmosphere wind patterns (which is exactly what the Russian Woodpecker ELF system does)." "

=========

In order to get to the prime global warming problems one must deal with the ozone depletion, which is a prime driver for global warming via the UV effects. UV causes three effects: 1. rise CO-2, rise of CH-4 etc due to radiolytic UV, and the HF-->NFO-->CH-4 effects.

So, one idea is to jet the upper regions GW gases into space. Blow them off with this mass ejection like effect.

Another is make enough ozone to put the UV filtering back up to the needed levels.

These two things, the ozone and the mass ejection, as why HAARP was funded and its all about dealing with the extremely bad problems connected with global warming damage forecasts.

All the ideas were worked out at ORNL using the materials previous discussed, and the project carries one of my names---HAARP. HALOE carries another.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-23-2005, 08:13 PM

If Wayne Hall, aka Halva, wants to make deals short of telling the whole story, then I don't consider that politically correct.

Which is why he will find that even when I have been invited to join so called politically astute circles by Halva that I will always decline.

CLEAR.

I have seen your politics, and I don't think much of it. Found intelligence wanting also.

I am not here to set up political affiliations you or with your associates. It is not an objective.

So, stop trying to set that up, or even suggest it, as it will never be accepted.

The only reason any wedges happen on simple truths is because of a serious lack of science abilties on your part, and lacking knowledge of the big picture.

Since, I don't care too much if you connect, since you were written off some time back as being simply too slow to follow the clues. I don't tend to hang very close with persons so slow.

You can learn the issues or not, if not, then expect to be torn to little bits in public debates.

halva

02-23-2005, 08:20 PM

If Wayne Hall, aka Halva, wants to make deals short of telling the whole story, then I don't consider that politically correct.

Which is why he will find that even when invited to join so called politically astute circles by Halva that I will alway decline.

CLEAR.

I have seen your politics, and I don't think much of it.

I am not here to set up political affiliations with your associates. It is not an objective.

Stop trying to set that up, it will never be accepted.

OK. I just don't like to see you making yourself a punching bag for Raynolds. But I guess that's the show that's on offer.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-23-2005, 08:37 PM

BC writes:

The new HAARP weather-engineering system, now under construction in Alaska, will have (among it's numerous functions) the clear capacity to zap pollution and will also be able to increase or decrease upper atmospheric ozone levels at will. In fact, the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory's secret 21-member US/Soviet "Project Woodpecker" team in charge of the project just won a special award from both the CIA and the NSA for their efforts.

=============

The primary objective on HAARP and its major selling point for funding was dealing with the GW and OD factors. Those are critical path issues.

Woodpecker was in operation long before HAARP, and was weather control via jet stream modification. These folks were brought in to help.

HAARP is about dumping the upper layer GW gases and reactions that pull OD and GW gases out of aerosol solution. Huge damage factors connected to getting that to work. Even inducing ozone generation is a temp solution.

The handle on global warming is OD, control that and GW goes away largely.

Secondary were the issues of deep submerged sub communications venue, the plate resonance factors to induce micro-quakes, jet steam effects, etc.

HAARP is an electro-accoustic appliance, using RF heating and translating it into gas movements in the upper atmosphere. Top priority is the blow the top layer of gases off the atmosphere. HF, CH4, C2H2

=========

http://home.stny.rr.com/physics/Warning/haarp.html

Among other things, the 1987 patent states, "Large regions of the upper atmosphere could be lifted to an unexpected high altitude...weather modification is possible, by for example altering the upper atmosphere wind patterns (which is exactly what the Russian Woodpecker ELF system does)."

Insurrectionchemistry

02-23-2005, 08:53 PM

Halva writes:

"OK. I just don't like to see you making yourself a punching bag for Raynolds. But I guess that's the show that's on offer."

===========

It must be pure bed rock between your ears. I am not here for your purposes. I am here for an experiment and to get the Reynolds Mafia reactions.

Not interested in suppressing it.

Now, just how GOD DAMN F'ing repeatedly specific does one have to get with you?

IS the point coming across clearly for you yet or do I need a jack hammer?

First you say your not going to argue any points, and what happens next. Your in here trying to screw me around with some of your politics for which I care not. You have a real propensity to say one thing, then do the opposite.

You can't and won't ever be able to lead me, get used to it.

You live in a fanstasy land, if you think squeching the Jew issues is going to end any of the Reynolds gang constant attacks. Only the fool takes you as logical.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-23-2005, 09:14 PM

Well now we are getting to see the utter stupidity of Yaak. He constantly tries to restate things in ways that are simply not true. Acts of a deceiver, it appears.

It has been very clearly stated that HF has a large effective GWP due to its forming NFO under UV radiation. The compound HF itself does not have much GWP, but when HF forms the NFO compound and recycles to HF and lots of hydrocarbons into the upper atmosphere----this is the effect that sets up the high effective GWP of HF.

Similarly, Cl compounds have an extremely large GWP because each Cl atom soaks up a lot of ozone formation, which in turn raises the UV and this drives the GW factor. All the compounds that have a OD factor, also by defintion of the relationship of UV driving the principle GW factors, have very large effective GWP's.

Very simple relationship, just not for idiots like Yaak. Or more aptly put, those who constantly seek to deceive folks.

The HAARP system going for ozone generation and controlling the OD are the number one keys to controlling the GW crisis. The global warming crisis is UV driven.

A point which the Reynolds Mafia appears despirate to suppress.

But the truth of the UV dominace of GW is not that hard to see for those that know the GW issues well. Makes total sense for the intelligently informed.

===========

http://home.stny.rr.com/physics/Warning/haarp.html

Among other things, the 1987 patent states, "Large regions of the upper atmosphere could be lifted to an unexpected high altitude...weather modification is possible, by for example altering the upper atmosphere wind patterns (which is exactly what the Russian Woodpecker ELF system does)."

Insurrectionchemistry

02-24-2005, 01:17 AM

Now comes the difficult parts:

1. Halva and the European contentions on Kyoto now have to include the US science on GW being dominated by UV effects. Which means you can do some poorly chosen emission cuts to the bone and not repair the CO2 problems, because they are damage issues from the UV effects.

2. The Reynolds gang is forced to use the UV effects as proof that Kyoto is not well based in the science of reason, considering this extended data on UV producing the GW effects.

It shall be interesting. Only the ones with real intelligence can win. Obviously here, there will be lots of loosers due to low levels of intellectual abilities and/or scamming the public.

In the mean time the intellegent ones shall become the ringmasters for this Jerry Springer level of science on this list.

One has already won, hands down, and shall be the MC. Guess who.

halva

02-24-2005, 03:17 AM

OK.

Noted.

I'll check out what views are on this point you make.

jayreynolds

02-24-2005, 04:28 AM

Hal
Now, just how GOD DAMN F'ing repeatedly specific does one have to get with you?.
Jimbo, next time you hear lightning, get down low.

jayreynolds

02-24-2005, 04:57 AM

Among other things, the 1987 patent states, "Large regions of the upper atmosphere could be lifted to an unexpected high altitude...weather modification is possible, by for example altering the upper atmosphere wind patterns (which is exactly what the Russian Woodpecker ELF system does)."

Among other things, the patent states:
U.S. Patent 1,143,835 to Michael Kispéter
Life Saving Apparatus
"This invention relates to life saving apparatus and its object is to provide means whereby the life of a person dropping from an aeroplane or airship either over land or over water may be saved."
http://colitz.com/site/1143835/1143835.htm

Look, folks, a person patenting something is allowed to make claims that are, to put it bluntly,
WAY OVERBLOWN. All they have to do is insert the prper qualifiers, as seen in the patents above- "may be", "could be", etc. The legal game of words is what it's all about, and where patent attorneys make their bread. Sorry to burst your bubble!

Insurrectionchemistry

02-24-2005, 07:22 AM

One of the HAARP operation principles or small scale effects model----electro-acoustic ion effects: http://www.4x4pride.org/Flame/Docs/FlameAmp/FlameAmp.html

Or how to change electrical currents in an ion zone into physical deformations in the ion density.

And lets not forget that electric currents in oxygen ion zone, makes ozone, just like a lighting bolt in air.

These are the two main ideas for HAARP to work on the UV problems and global warming. Both mechanisms are simple and highly accepted facts in science.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-24-2005, 08:15 AM

Odd how one of the main principles for HAARP was published in Popular Mechanics amost 40 years ago, but such simple and obvious uses for HAARP's electro-acoustic like effects remain missing from the mindless science of the Jerry Springer Forum here.

Perhaps BC, should go for Springer Beads, when she humors and asks rather dumb questions of the show's Low Road to Perdition guests.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-24-2005, 09:59 AM

The HAARP analogy to the flame speaker is very close. Ions modulated by electric currents or by RF E-M energy produce the same basic effect.

In HAARP it is the Sun's UV radiations that supply the ions, rather than a flame as in a flame speaker.

HAARP has a huge active area in the upper atmosphere, which means its low freq response can go well down under Earth's resonance for Earthquake shake rates.

With one megawatt of power over this large an area----HAARP can break all the picture windows out of homes in an entire state. Or it can make sub-sonic shakes for Earth resonance effects. Or it can make lots of ozone, or force a big slug of the upper atmosphere off into space.

The HAARP mechanism is real close to that for magnetohydrodynamic thrusters, MHD, which also induces a force in a flowing stream. MHD is the method of the super quiet sub propusion systems of the Russians that don't use conventional propellers.

A very similar technique is used in air propulsion, where the air is ionized highly by an intense cylindrical beta radiation source using bremstrahlung effect. These type propusion systems don't have any moving parts, but for the air going through the force column, and make near zero sound from a laminar flow situation. They use easily shielded beta radioactive isotope emissions to ionize air, a strong magnetic field, and electric power to make a huge vectored thrust. This works similar to a liquid mercury pump.
http://www.coolingzone.com/Guest/News/NL_JUN_2004/Ake/Ake_June_04.html

So, the inner secrets of HAARP point to several basic effects: 1. HAARP can make ozone and physical forces, and 2, HAARP mechanism is real close to MHD technologies and some rather secret propulsion systems of the US national security network.

The US Govt tends to like to hide these effects from the public.

halva

02-24-2005, 01:13 PM

Jim Phelps do you have any criticism of the Kyoto accords apart from the criticism that everyone makes, i.e. that they are minimal and inadequate?

Does it do any actual harm to focus on carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas? Does doing this help with the promotion of some hidden American agenda in UN and EU politics?

Given that the number one problem in the 'chemtrails' campaign is that nobody official will acknowledge the existence of any deliberate 'spraying' isn't it useful to target the people who are talking about 'global dimming', point out the existence of the studies, including that of the American Academy of Sciences that recommended spraying of aerosols from aircraft as a greenhouse mitigative measure and ask why, given that these studies have been there for so many years, they have not been implemented?

How else does one find an opening into socially acknowledged and politically possible public debate?

Boomer Chick

02-24-2005, 04:40 PM

IS, I need your opinion on this link, please:

http://www.enterprisemission.com/did_haarp.htm

_________________________

Poker Flats facility:

http://www.pfrr.alaska.edu/pfrr/index.html

More than 1,500 meteorological missiles and 236 major high-altitude sounding rocket experiments have been launched from the range by scientists and technicians from a variety of federal agencies and from universities throughout the world to conduct atmospheric research, including studies on the aurora, ozone layer, solar protons, the electric and magnetic fields, and ultraviolet radiation.

The Federal Aviation Administration approves requested rocket flight zones and coordinates air space use during rocket launches. Permission to impact rockets and payloads on some 26 million acres of land is authorized by the Bureau of Land Management, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, the State of Alaska Division of Lands, Doyon, Ltd., and the Village Traditional Councils of Venetie and Arctic Village. The research range launch site is owned by the University of Alaska.

___________________________________

IS, could you look over these launches and make sense of it, please?

http://www.pfrr.alaska.edu/pfrr/index.html

_____________________________________

Poker Flats: (many links are dead)

http://www.pfrr.alaska.edu/pfrr/index.html

Climate Change Monitoring Station. This air sampling station with modern data handling capabilities creates a center for expanded efforts to measure stratospheric and tropospheric ozone, greenhouse gases, and arctic aerosols.

An enhanced lidar facility which will house a Rayleigh lidar, a light-based remote sensing system analogous to radar. The lidar includes a large collector and high-power lasers optimized for both Rayleigh and resonance scatter. This system measures density, temperature and winds between 25 and 100 kilometers in altitude.

_______________________________

IS, did you know this man?

http://www.ee.psu.edu/faculty/ferraro/ferraro1.html

____________________________________

His list of papers, manuscripts, meetings, workshops, conferences, etc. :

http://www.ee.psu.edu/faculty/ferraro/ferraro2.html

________________________________________

REFLECTIONS ON 40+ YEARS OF IONOSPHERIC RESEARCH

A. J. FERRARO

http://www.ee.psu.edu/cssl/ferraro.html

___________________________________________

Does the name, Breakall sound familiar?

____________________________________________

No mention of Oakridge on this whole page -- amazing amount of links:

http://www.alaska.net/~logjam/HAARP.html

____________________________________________

Boomer Chick

02-24-2005, 04:41 PM

HIPAS has several diverse experimental facilities: a 1-megawatt rf transmitter to produce ELF/VLF (Extremely Low and Very Low Frequency) electromagnetic (EM) generation by the absorption of radio Frequency (rf) power in the artic ionospher including ion cyclotron excitation; a 100 kW rf plasma torch used in research on the destruction of hazardous waste; a 2.7 m liquid mirror telescope used with one of several lasers for ionospheric stimulation and measurement; an Incoherent Scatter Radar (a new project using 88 ft. diameter antenna at NOAA Gilmore Creek site 34 km SW of HIPAS as the receiving antenna with the transmitter at HIPAS). We are in the process of adding a very high power (terawatt) laser (recently obtained from LLNL) to perform laser breakdown experiments in the ionosphere. Two Diesel electric generators (1500 HP 4160 V, 3-phase, _1.2 MVA each) are used to power the experiments. there are a number of computers (PC's ) on site, and a high-speed data line to UAF is available.
Over the last 20 years HIPAS Observatory has built up a spectrum of communication frequencies from very low to very high ELF (Extremely Low Frequncies) to laser frequencies.

http://www.physics.ucla.edu/plasmalab/current.html

The nearly vertical magnetic field lines connect the location to both the magnetosphere and the open field lines

HIPAS Observatory is on a 120 acre site located about 25 miles east of Fairbanks on the Chena-Hot Springs road. there are 6 buildings (~10,000 sq ft), and remotely operated diagnostic at off-site locations.One of the buildings is a "bunkhouse," available to provide housing for visiting experimenters. The site operates year-round. Professor Alfred Y. Wong is the director and Dr. Ralph Wuerker is the associate director. There are four permanent staff members. Mr. William Huhn is the site manager. The site is owned by the University of Alaska, Fairbanks, which cooperates with UCLA.

The ELF will monitor the resonant frequency of the earth's atmospheric cavity using ground-based receiving coils. The resulting data may provide information about global warming and the nature of earth's atmospheric mantles. Students will be able to excite these waves using the high power tyransmitter at HIPAS and watch their decay in the earth's resonant cavity. students will learn that a natural system will respond with a larger amplitude when excited at its resonance.

ELF waves are of great interest because they resonate with ion cyclotron motion in the Artic atmosphere. CO2- and Cl -. (Ion Dynamics and Ozon, A.Y. Wong 1991. Negative CO2 and Cl ions.

http://www.physics.ucla.edu/plasmalab/current.html

__________________________________________________ ___

How Scientists Plan to Save the Ozone Layer

http://www.physics.ucla.edu/plasmalab/publicity.html

__________________________________________________

http://www.physics.ucla.edu/plasmalab/environpub.html

CONTENTS

Wong, A.Y. "Research on Mitigation of Stratospheric Ozone Depletion" Advances in Plasma Physics. Thomas H. Stix Symposium, AIP Conference Proceedings 314, 69-98 (1994)

Wong, A.Y., Sensharma, D.K., Tang, A.W., Suchanek RG, Ho D. "Observation of Charged-Induced Recovery of Ozone Concentration after Catalytic Destruction by Chlorofluorocarbons" Physical Review Letters, 72, 19,3124-3127 (1994)

Wong, Ay, Suchannek, RG, Kanner R. "Catalytic Destruction of Ozone by Chlorofluorocarbons and Partial Restoration by Methane in Large Laboratory Experiements" Physics Letters A, 168 423-428 (1992)

Wong, AY, Steinhauer J, Close R, Fukuchi T, Milikh GM. "Conservation of Ozone in the Upper Atmosphere by Selective Ion Removal" Comments on Plasma Physics and Controlled Fusion, 12, 5, 223-234 (1989)

Wong, AY, Wuerker RF, Sabutis J, Suchannek R, Hendricks, CD, Gottlieb P. "Ion Dynamics and Ozone" International School of Plasma Physics, Piero Caldirola, Controlled Active Global Experiements (CAGE) Proceedings, 129-142, 1990.

Tsang, KT, Ho,D, Wong AY, Siverson RJ. " Stratospheric Ozone Conservation by Electron Attachment to Chlorine Atoms". Internation School of Plasma Physics, Piero Caldirola, Controlled Active Global Experiments (CAGE) Proceedings, 143-156 (1990)

Ho D, Tsang KT, Wong AY, Siverson RJ. "Stratospheric Ozone Conservation by Electron Attachment to Chlorine Atoms - The Negative-Ion Chemistry" International School of Plasma Physics, Piero Caldirola, Controlled Active Global Experiments (CAGE) Proceedings,157-173 (1990)

Wong AY, Hendricks CD, Khan AA. "Remediation of Ozone Depletion by Atmospherric Electrical Charging: The Importance of Laboratory Testing". Physics Letters A, 217, 294-299 (1996)

Wong AY, Liebscher A, Khan A, and Wuerker R. "Mitigation of Ozone Depletion Using Charged Liquid Droplets" To be published in Dusty Plasmas in Environmental Research Conference and Proceedings, October 1996, Goa, India.

Environment
Plasma & Environmental Physics Home Page
Department of Physics & Astronomy Home Page
_____________________________________________

http://www.physics.ucla.edu/plasmalab/PubIndex.html

_____________________________________________

http://www.demonhunter.btinternet.co.uk/haaarp.htm

As far back as 1958, the chief White House advisor on weather modification, Captain Howard T. Orville, said the U.S. defense department was studying "ways to manipulate the charges of the earth and sky and so affect the weather" by using an electronic beam to ionize or de-ionize the atmosphere over a given area.
In 1966, Professor Gordon J. F. MacDonald was associate director of the Institute of Geophysics and Planetary Physics at the University of California, Los Angeles, was a member of the President's Science Advisory Committee, and later a member of the President's Council on Environmental Quality.

He published papers on the use of environmental-control technologies for military purposes. MacDonald made a revealing comment: "The key to geophysical warfare is the identification of environmental instabilities to which the addition of a small amount of energy would release vastly greater amounts of energy. " World-recognized scientist MacDonald had a number of ideas for using the environment as a weapon system and he contributed to what was, at the time, the dream of a futurist. When he wrote his chapter, "How To Wreck The Environment," for the book Unless Peace Comes, he was not kidding around. In it he describes the use of weather manipulation, climate modification, polar ice cap melting or destabilization, ozone depletion techniques, earthquake engineering, ocean wave control and brain wave manipulation using the planet's energy fields.

He also said that these types of weapons would be developed and, when used, would be virtually undetectable by their victims

___________________________________________

A UK plasma, molecular, physics site:
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:z-ZCM7YJ01YJ:phys.strath.ac.uk/information/downloads/R1.pdf+ozone+plasma+molecular+&hl=en

___________________________________________

Current UV index page :

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/uv_index/uv_current.html

UV index recommendations:

http://www.theozonehole.com/uvindex.htm

__________________________________________

OK, hope everyone's happy today!

BC ;)

jayreynolds

02-24-2005, 06:39 PM

With one megawatt of power over this large an area----HAARP can break all the picture windows out of homes in an entire state. Or it can make sub-sonic shakes for Earth resonance effects. Or it can make lots of ozone, or force a big slug of the upper atmosphere off into space..

A generous estimate of the land area of Rhode island, our smallest state is 2000 square miles, or 5.17 trillion square meters. A power level of 1 megawatt across this area yields a power density of .00019 watts per meter.

In round figures, two ten-thousandths of a watt per square meter(assuming no losses whatsoever).

Jimbo, you couldn't rattle a leaf with that amount of power.

You might be able to power up a crystal diode radio!

Any punk high school kid knows you need at least 600 watts to blow the rear window out of a car!

Insurrectionchemistry

02-25-2005, 06:12 AM

The atmosphere has supplied energy. It is a common theme even in the days of Tesla. The science of today offers much greater insights.

The Japanese, in studies of UV LASERs for controlling lighting, found that lightning bolts can be made to follow an air pathway ionized by a LASER. In which case, they got a lot more power delived than was put into the process directly. http://www.esdjournal.com/articles/lightn.htm
http://www.aip.org/pnu/2004/split/712-2.html

Star Wars ultimate weapon methods use ionizing LASERs to make a conduction pathway from the ion regions to the Earth's surface, and when such an event happens, one gets much more power dumped down the beam path than dozens of hydrogen bombs. Nature provided an example of one of these ionized paths from the Tunguska blast of the early 1900s, the ion pathway was generated by a high speed meteor. The UV LASER methods of Star Wars is the ultimate in clean mega-bomb technologies.

And these do lots more than break picture windows. And only idiots consider only the direct energy portions in experiments that involve a medium loaded with potential energy that is being vectored. The atmosphere has a sort of concealed potential energy, as was the case of nuclear power for a long time, that are being used.

Most people these days realize they walk around in an energy field on the surface of the Earth. We live in an air dielectric loaded with energy. It sets up a potential gradient of around 800 volts/meter. This is where lighting comes from. A tiny little disruption force can set up the release of a lot more. It is deomstrated everytime someone sees a lighting bolt.

Similarly most know the Sun's nuclear energy charges up this great atmospheric capacitor with the power of thousands of H-bombs. And most would be bright enough to know that when one screws around with one of the capacitor's terminals and modifies its conductance and spacing, that there will follow extreme redistribution of forces and power. The redistribution energy effects greatly exceed the power put into making the disruption. When one puts in the resonant effects, extreme things happen.

But, such a science as Tesla's is beyond your capabilties. Just as solid state tunneling effects in cold fusion escapes your mind's view.

Stupid Farmers should stick to pigs that can only go "oink" when poked. It is idiots like yourself that mislead people onto simple minded direct associations on Global Warming, when the real problem is the UV making higher levels of CO-2 by plankton effects, and making the H-C global warming blanket by radiolytic effects on H-C directly and indirectly by HF to NFx injection effects.

Your constant demonstrations of your stupidity of thought are pathetic. Idiots, like yourself, need to stop harassing others because of your stupidity of thought on science.

What kind of foolish science does one expect from the pig, but one based on a grunt and the innondation of this Forum with bogus smelly crap.

halva

02-25-2005, 07:45 AM

Insurrectionchemistry

02-25-2005, 08:05 AM

Halva inquires:

"Does it do any actual harm to focus on carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas? Does doing this help with the promotion of some hidden American agenda in UN and EU politics?"

====================

Halva asks some interesting questions, so how about lets break these several questions into individual responses and elaborate.

Can focus on CO2 cause harm? I would say so. Because CO2 directly is not the main problem, and if one focuses on it, one does not solve the GW problem. This happens via several ways.

CO2's concentration in the atmosphere is a matter of dynamic equilibrium between the ocean's plankton consumption of CO2 and the total releases. In the case of CO2, the radiation damage factor to the plankton drives the bulk of the CO2 concentrations in the air. Planton's UV damage factor is the largest of the dynamic equilibrium issues.

So, if one goes after CO2 source cuts as the main culprit, one won't note much change in the CO2 concentration in the air, because it is dominated by the plankton UV damage factor effects.

So, there is harm to focus on the wrong dominate effect because doing that can result in the poles still melting and even some economic hardship issues.

If Europe make cuts for CO2 and the US does not follow, in say coal emssions or petrochemical releases, then the costs of these in Europe rises, while in the US there becomes a glut of cheep fuels. So, the game of hiding the dominate principle for CO2 translates into many factors that the US can use and abuse at will, simply because the real science is not being laid openly on the global community's table.

So, the root of the CO2 issue is the understanding of the principle mechanism for which it occurs. The Focus on CO2 direct releases is not the main problem, but the US does like it when others follow these simple association that CO2 is a direct cause for global warming.

The US likes this because it takes the heat of blame off the Freon to Cl issues and the fluorine release factors that interact with the H-C releases from oil uses.

So, in the US the CO2 issues are part of a big shell game, where the idea is to trick the other side into giving up rights or riches.

If you buy the issue that CO2 direct emissions are the main driver for CO2 concentration rising in the atmosphere----then the shell game promoters take home a great load of gold.

Everything on this planet is driven my dynamic equilibrium factors and they can never be ignored. Like in Oak Ridge, the deer population on the reservation soared when there were no predators. So, when people went to work they often ran over these thosands of deer that would run right in front of cars. So, they put in managed hunts to cut down the population of them.

Meanwhile, In the nearby national park, the very same thing happened with deer populations, but the solution there was to bring back the natural predators, wolves, which have reduced the deer population. Wolves were not to good solution to the Oak Ridge zone. But all the issues were caused by dynamic equilibrium problems. Not that deers acted alone, because that was never the case in nature before these controller areas come into being.

Just like dymanic equilibrium plays the pivotal role in deer populations in Tennessee, so does the dynamic equilibrium between air CO2 and plankton health, when a predator like UV is unleashed upon it. Same game with the ozone, when the predator Cl atoms get loose, they knock off thousands of ozone molecules.

So yes, focus on only the CO2 causes huge problems. One should focus on the whole mechanism and study the dynamic equilibrium factors, then go make the cost benefit decisions.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-25-2005, 08:18 AM

Insurrectionchemistry

02-25-2005, 08:39 AM

Halva inquires:

"do you have any criticism of the Kyoto accords apart from the criticism that everyone makes, i.e. that they are minimal and inadequate?

============

The current decisions for Kyoto is being made from flawed concepts of prime drivers.

Kyoto science looks only at the GWP of a specific compound, and omits the follow on factors of chemical breakdown processes and the UV synergism.

Kyoto seems to get into the issues of Freon and this providiing the injection pathway for Cl into the ozone region that sets up the UV factor, but when similar concepts have to be applied to HF and the NFx injection pathway due to UV, they fall short.

So, the problems is Kyoto's science vision is severely impaired. Currently, it falls well short of what needs to be happening.

There are better choices of targeted compounds then what the current round of talks suggest, and part of these shortcomings are due to places like Oak Ridge, Lawrence Livermore, and the crooked GOP types in Washington playing shell games with where is the real science.

Kyoto needs to get down to the issue that GW is dominately UV induced----not CO2 directly or any of the other compounds they taught as being predominant.

That is the main problem with Kyoto.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-25-2005, 08:53 AM

halva inquires:

"Given that the number one problem in the 'chemtrails' campaign is that nobody official will acknowledge the existence of any deliberate 'spraying' isn't it useful to target the people who are talking about 'global dimming', point out the existence of the studies, including that of the American Academy of Sciences that recommended spraying of aerosols from aircraft as a greenhouse mitigative measure and ask why, given that these studies have been there for so many years, they have not been implemented?

How else does one find an opening into socially acknowledged and politically possible public debate?"

============

For the, of tiny scientific ablities, this is likely your only choice. Certainly talking that up helps expose the problems.

But also talking up that what we see over our heads are part of easily realizable sciences and the long standing need for controlling factors like the HF problems, also applies. But then one has to understand some concepts in chemistry, sciences, etc. to be able to understand and apply these concepts as important for public discussions and exposing the situation more fully.

Talking the mechanisms is the most important in scientific understanding.

Everything does not have to have a Govt. stamp in it to be realized as being valid. Other people have the power to process the information presented and see the concepts and mechaism involved. You don't, and partly because you give into the GOP shell games that the Reynolds Mafia attempt to do in herding you and others around like dumb animals.

This why you tend to think that direct CO2 emission reduction is a goal for GW reduction, when that comes in last place in the real games of reduction. Similarly, concepts of UV damage to plankton, and UV breakdown of other compounds besides Freon alludes you. Your bound by the Govt. telling you what you can know and when. Which means, you loose.

I, on the other hand, am the one that made these discoveries and can speak to the mechanisms involved and how the US Govt comes to make the decisions it makes and presents the stances against Kyoto that it does. It is speaking from intelligence, science, and not from some Govt stamped report that says hey----now you can make this public.

Oak Ridge is big time into radiation effects and when persons like Dr. Joyce Dickerman wrote a report in the plankton and CO2 dominated by UV, we all caught right onto the idea. Plus, we looked deeper for other effects of UV and came to the biggest GW factor of them all.

This set up the chemtrails need. And when someone looks into the skies on humid summer days and sees the graffiti lines bleeding into haze and more rains, then that becomes part of parcel for looking for why that should be happening. There has to be some greater reason for jet planes to change from not screwing up the skies and shading than it just happened, because the direction from the beginning of jets was to avoid that happening.

So, when one introduces the UV, HF, and NFO as a factor for the jet engine and fuel designs to make rain to pull down the HF----it goes to make a greater sense toward why persons see their skies obscured and their health impacted by the dangerous effects of acids toward metals in the soil and food chain. Folks need to be informed and not hearded around like a group of dumb animals.

Thus, the UV and radiation effects need to be exposed in the GW equation for public comment and opionions.

The biggest thing you can do is learn not to let the Reynolds Mafia herd you around, and to do this, learn some science. Break free of the bogus fences of the mind control that these crooks attempt to build against the truth breaking out in public venues.

jayreynolds

02-25-2005, 10:06 AM

jayreynolds

02-25-2005, 10:37 AM

stuart_allsop

02-25-2005, 12:31 PM

However, considering that matter can be influenced by energies and is an energy of a more slowly vibrating nature,What do you mean by "vibrating"? Energy does not vibrate: Only matter can vibrate. Energy is not matter, and therefore cannot vibrate. energy can CUASE things to vibrate, but in and of itself it does not vibrate. It only oscillates.

and considering that fault zones COULD be pulsated by microwaves or other low frequency energy transmissionsWrong on two counts, Boomer: Microwaves penetrate into rock about as far as you can hammer a steel bar into rock. In other words, microwaves hardly penetrate rock at all. Even a REALLY powerfel GPR systems (groud penetrating radar) will get you just a few meters of penetration into the ground, but that stops pretty smartly when it hits rock: there you get less than a meter, if you are lucky. But you, Boomer, are claiming that microwave energy can penetrate thousands of times that distance into rock! Sorry, it doesn't.

Your second error was saying that microwave energy is "low frequency". Wrong. the frequency of microwave transmissions is way, way up there, in the several tens of gigahertz range, with wavelengths measured in millimeters or centimeters. In fact, microwaves fall into the electromagnetic spectrum bands known as "Super high frequency" and "Extremely high frequency", whcih is the exact opposite of what you claim.

The kind of waves that can penetrate rock to great depths, are way down there at the oppostie end of the spectrum, in the ELF range, where wavelengths are measured in tens or hundreds of kilometers..

In other words, you were off by a factor of several million.

To summarize, you asked us to believe that the frequencey of microwave transmissions is a few million times lower than it really is, and that it penetrates rock to a depth of a few thousand times more than it actually can... To quote a much-overused cliche: "Your'e Fired!" :)

I wouldn't in my most shallow imagination doubt that the technology in the hands of certain scientists even today COULD influence the zones already under immense pressure no matter how deep within the earth's crust. Tell, me oh Stuart, my philosopher/scientist that indeed it is NOT possible. And please provide links!!!! ROFLMBO!!!! OK. I already DID tell you that what you claim is impossible, because the technology you cite is incapable of doing what you claim it does, and it isn't even what you claim it is. Therefore, indeed, what you claim most certainly IS NOT possible, "dearie".

And here are your links.

Frequency of microwave spectrum:
------------------------------------------------
http://www.sss-mag.com/spectrum.html
http://www.ee.udel.edu/~xuan/research/public/spectrum_chart.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum

Microwave penetration into rock, snow, and food:
--------------------------------------------
http://fate.clu-in.org/gpr.asp?techtypeid=41
http://cires.colorado.edu/~maurerj/scatterometry/scatterometry_cryos_apps.htm
http://www.foodproductdesign.com/archive/1997/0597CS.html

And, if this is a possibility, would it not then seem humane to lightly pulse areas now under stress to create tiny quakes to relieve pressure rather than build it up into a large siesmic quake, hurting people and buildings? This does not refer to Iran in any way. it isn't possible, so why bpther speculating? You got your science wrong, so going further down this path is pointless..

Frankly, I don't want to spend time looking it up, but I know of even political figures in our country who have mentioned such technological advancements. Is this what you want to discuss at this point? Let me know.Sure! I'd loce to see which kooky politicians plan to start earthquakes with microwaves! Please do show me some of that! Should be a hoot!

Are you declaring a link war here? LOL! Well, if you can come up with any links that show a valid method by which microwaves can penetrate tens of thousnads of meters into solid rock, then yes, post them by all means!

Oh! Digging is not necessary.Then how are you going to get your microwave transmitters close enough to the fault line? You can't do it from the surface, you know... :)

[/QUOTE]

stuart_allsop

02-25-2005, 12:39 PM

[COLOR=SandyBrown]HAARP To Install
516 More Antennas

Note - That's over and above the 132 that were just installed last year. And that's over and above the original 48 antennas that were perfectly adequate to fry the earth many times over.

Wrong! The article says NOTHING AT ALL about 516 new antennas.

What it DOES say is that the company has won a contract to manufacture 516 ANTENNA MATCHING UNITS. Not "antennas", but "antenna matching units". Huge difference.

Let me guess: You don't know very much about radio, do you?

stuart_allsop

02-25-2005, 01:05 PM

"During the Cold War, in the closed research laboratory of the Gorky, Russian military scientists developed the 'Gyrotron'; a high-energy microwave generator designed to sweep the skies of Western warplanes [using Tesla scalar-wave technology].[quote]Come on, Boomer! That was the very first thing that we dealt with here! Remember? I showed you that Bearden's scalar waves are a physical impossibility, and you agreed! So why are you now going back and accepting trash like this that you already KNOW cannot be true?

Just think for a sec here, Boomer: If all of this is so ver "top secret" that "nobody knows" about it, then how come this guy "knows"? If he really DOES know, then he must be part of the inner cirlce with "top secret" clearance, and if he isn't part of the inner circle, then he simply does not know!!!! Sheesh!

He's making it all up, Boomer. Even you should be able to see that. It isn't even self-consistant, and most of it makes not logical sense at all!

Insurrectionchemistry

02-25-2005, 02:41 PM

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/s

Bush Accused Of Hot
Air As Kyoto Comes Into Force
By Andrew Buncombe in Washington
The Independent - UK
2-25-5

The Bush administration was accused yesterday of deception after it claimed
it was making a serious commitment to reducing greenhouse gas emissions,
despite its non-participation in the Kyoto agreement.

Environmentalists said policies introduced by the government would not
prevent the continued increase in emissions from the world's biggest greenhouse gas
polluter and were little more than fig leaves.

"The bottom line is that emissions are going up and with the current Bush
administration policies they are going to continue to go up," said Dan Lashof of
the Natural Resources Defence Council, an environmental group. "It's
misleading for them to claim they are seriously committed to reducing global warming."

President George Bush withdrew US backing for the Kyoto protocol in March
2001, saying it would be too damaging to the country's economy and would cost
five million jobs. He also claimed the agreement was based on unreliable science
and unfairly excluded developing nations such as India, China and Brazil,
which account for a third of the world's population. Though the US originally put
its signature to the proposal, it was opposed so adamantly by the US Senate
that it was never submitted for ratification by President Bill Clinton.

This week, President Bush's spokesman, Scott McClellan, said that despite its
withdrawal from Kyoto, the administration had initiated measures to address
global warming, including investment in hydrogen fuel cell technology, tax
incentives for renewable energy, the raising of fuel economy standards and a plan
for zero emission by coal-fired power plants. He said: "Under this
administration we have made an unprecedented commitment to reduce the growth of
greenhouse gas emissions in a way that continues to grow our economy."

Campaigners said Mr McClellan was giving a false picture. Much of the money
being spent, they said, was going to scientific research when there was already
a broad international consensus that global warming did exist and that
burning fossil fuels was a contributing factor. They also said fuel economy for cars
had barely improved in 20 years.

"It's just smoke and mirrors," said Jessica Coven, a climate campaigner with
Greenpeace. "They say they are spending billions of dollars but much of that
money is for research into whether global warming exists. The Bush
administration should be spending ... billions on solutions that are available now - solar
and wind ... If there was the political will, the US could reduce its
emissions."

But individual states have been credited for initiatives to reduce emissions.
In November, The Independent reported how nine states, led by New York's
Governor, George Pataki, were putting together a system to cap and trade
greenhouse gas emissions. The regional-level initiative, details of which are due to be
announced in spring, could even link up with the emissions controls and
trading system being established by the EU and allow emission allowances to be
traded across the Atlantic.

Under the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI), industries covered by
the schemes will be given allocations in units of one ton of carbon dioxide
produced. Polluters could then either reduce their emissions or buy allocations on
a market from others. In the US, sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxide
emissions, which cause acid rain and smog, are federally regulated and traded, but
there is no federal regulation of carbon dioxide.

IS THE WORLD WARMING TO KYOTO?

Japan

"Japan will make all efforts to respect the rules of the protocol. It will
neither be easy nor insurmountable." Takashi Omura, of the Japanese environment
ministry

Britain

"Over 30-40 years...this is going to be a major, major issue. It's going to
cause difficulty, if not catastrophe, for parts of the world and will also
affect our own. The only solution, I'm afraid, is ... we have got to pull the
Americans back into dialogue." Tony Blair

Australia

"Until the major polluters of the world, including the US and China, are made
part of the Kyoto regime, it is next to useless and indeed harmful for a
country such as Australia to sign up." Prime Minister John Howard

Russia

"The Kyoto Protocol in itself cannot solve all problems affecting the
environment and the climate. We will continue efforts aimed at ... taking into
account that this does not cover all developing regions." Deputy Foreign Minister,
Yury Fedotov

Mexico

"The time has come to confront a reality that puts at risk the equilibrium of
the planet and the survival of our species." President Vicente Fox

UN

"Climate change requires a concerted global response. I call on the world
community to adhere to the Kyoto Protocol, and to act quickly in taking the next
steps." UN Secretary General, Kofi Annan

EU

"We are eager to engage in a constructive, forward-looking international
process with all our partners on how we can achieve the necessary reductions"
European Commission President, Jose Manuel Barroso

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/s

Boomer Chick

02-25-2005, 04:14 PM

[QUOTE=Boomer Chick]"During the Cold War, in the closed research laboratory of the Gorky, Russian military scientists developed the 'Gyrotron'; a high-energy microwave generator designed to sweep the skies of Western warplanes [using Tesla scalar-wave technology].

OK, I understand about microwaves verses the low frequency waves, now.

You know, you wait pages and pages to respond when I've gone on to new things and don't have easy access to the links to even find the pages, and I don't appreciate that.

On your microwaves verses low frequency waves, you give a good argument and thank you.

However, on the other stuff, you really don't, and the use of the term scalar is neither here nor there anymore.... you didn't refute it as the science itself is on ongoing debate so who are you or who am I to jump in where astro-physicists tread? There were scientists who backed Bearden and there were scientists who debunked him. I don't know squat.... remember? I am on the outside looking in at all this and seeing that it's a new and debatable physics, but regardless of Bearden, the HAARP facility and others like it are indeed operating all over the world. Do you deny that?

When I quoted military personnel making speeches about weather manipulation, uses of HAARP (including stimulating tectonic movement or irritating it), and gave all the links regarding the earth's magnetic grid and how it ties in to the whole earth's mantel.... you failed to address any of that aspect. How do you know that the earth's magnetic energy grid does not indeed affect the mantel, that the use of the grid in HAARP experiments, especially near the poles, doesn't somehow disrupt the levels and charges of that grid, and that the ionesphere in its stimulation and it's possible transmuting and amplifying energy directed back at the earth doesn't also impinge on the electromagnetic balancing act of the planet?

:You chose one or two small arguable aspects, pages after it was posted, and expect me to argue it with you? You're right about microwaves and I was only including them as a general term without specifics and without knowing the far range of wavelengths from slow to fast, from long to short. My mistake.

HUMPTH!!! LOL!

Can't do it. I posted some very cogent links, read a lot of information and frankly, your little diatribe on microwaves doesn't lessen the possibility of HAARP impinging on electro magnetic systems of our planet.

It's not all a hoax, Stuey, it's not all dreamed up and fabricated crap! Why do you think they're keeping it a secret? I posted UCLA links on plasma experiments related to HAARP... why didn't you refute those? What is your problem with being curious yourself? Is it too hard to face? Is the science too beyond your ability to realize that so many people playing with so many unknown aspects of our planet and nature's balances could actually F*** it up someday or inadvertantly pump too much power into the grid or take too much out, or try to zap an area of the planet with low frequency pulsations? Is that too hard to understand? Even the gov. and university sites talk about the experiments. Why don't you go debunk them?

Come on now, Stu, open up a little and quit playing your BC-is-dumb therefore I-have-to-play-softball-with-her-in-front-of-others-so-they-won't -read-her-links game!!!!

You pick out a UCLA experiment, or go to the Poker Flats site or any of the scientists I linked you to, and figure out for yourself what it is they're up to, heh? Or do you just want to play the naysayer on everything instead of getting yourself into the science of WHAT IS happening. Of all people on this board, I would think you would be the most curious, but it seems not to be so.

Why is that?

I could certainly use your mind on the scientific aspects of what IS under study now. Plasma physics, stimulating the ionesphere, ions, what happens when ions are stimulated and charges changed from negative to positive in weather fronts, the electromagnetic planetary grid......

Why aren't you curious?

BC :rolleyes:

jayreynolds

02-25-2005, 07:37 PM

"Over 30-40 years...this is going to be a major, major issue. It's going to cause difficulty, if not catastrophe, for parts of the world and will also
affect our own. The only solution, I'm afraid, is ... we have got to pull the
Americans back into dialogue." Tony Blair

"Foreknowledge of the future makes it possible to manipulate both enemies and supporters. "
--Raymond Aron

People are really going to have a hoot 30-40 years from now!

Boomer Chick

02-25-2005, 08:05 PM

Thanks, Yaak. I should have done the work myself, but I thought the links were enough.

I so appreciate your more focused question to Stuart !

BC :D

http://exodus.physics.ucla.edu/plasma%20accelerators/plasma.accelerators.html

The Purpose of using Particle-in-Cell (PIC) computer models, we are exploring the feasibility of using relativistic plasma waves to accelerate electrons with gradients orders of magnitude higher than current technology provides. Various schemes being investigated are the Plasma Beat Wave, Laser Wakefield, Self-Modulated Laser Wakefield (Raman forward scattering), and the Particle Beam Wakefield concepts. Using modern parallel computers we can accurately model the full spatial and temporal scales of several ongoing laser-plasma accelerator experiments. This work is done in collaboration with the Neptune Lab projects at UCLA. In addition, we are exploring the use of plasmas to focus particle beams and to upshift existing sources of radiation. These new types of radiation sources have unique capabilities in regard to tunability and pulse compression in the GHz to 100THz frequency range.
This work is supported by DOE grants DE-FG03-90ER40727 and DE- FG03-98DP00211, NSF grant DMS-9722121 and LLNL contract W-7405-ENG-48.

Interesting magnetosphere science:

http://www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/wcurrent.html

http://www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/Intro.html

But notice no mention of HAARP like science, kinds of skirts around it, don't you think?

More from Ferraro: Why? Because it seems nobody reads around here except Yaak!

http://www.ee.psu.edu/cssl/ferraro.html

EXCERPT: Finally I arrived at a model of the D-region and received my PhD degree. I remember my advisor, Dr. J. J Gibbons, asking me a good question at my thesis defense; he wanted me to tell him how to estimate the radius of an electron. Although I spent all my research time in computing how many electrons there were in the ionosphere, this was a surprising question. The readers might want to ponder over this. HINT: find the electrostatic energy stored by a spherical charge of unknown radius R and equate this quantity to mc2; finally solve for R.

I joined the faculty of Electrical Engineering in 1959 and continued pursuing the ground-based technique of measuring the D-region of the ionosphere. However I realized that the way we had been doing the experiment lacked height resolution while other techniques like the rocket probe measurement claimed to have improved upon the older ground-based methods. At this point I became interested in the cross-modulation, experiment or amplitude wave interaction, as it was also called. This technique was known for some time but was never extensively used as a diagnostic tool. It seemed to provide the much needed height resolution, so Hai-Sup Lee and I researched this idea and struck upon an improvement which we called radio wave phase interaction. In simple terms, we found another parameter to be measured that would insure better accuracy in the derived electron density profiles that would be even faster to collect and interpret the data.

To test this concept would require an entirely new transmitting facility and funds were not yet available. So we did some modifications to the high-power low-frequency transmitter that was sort of on its "last legs" and Steve Weisbrod (my first PhD student) tackled the problem as his thesis topic. He put in countless hours looking at the theory and designing the special receiving equipment, transmitters and antennas. He was well rewarded, for at 2 a.m. in 1962 at Scotia, he and I watched with amazement as the chart recorder was tracing out the first measurement of the detection of phase interaction. That was the beginning of my career in the area of ionospheric modification .

From there we went out with a proposal to the Office of Naval Research requesting the funds for a completely new installation to measure wave interaction, and we were blessed to receive the funds. In the early 60s $300,000 was a large grant. However, the antenna installation cost $60,000, and the transmitter company designed and built a one-of-a-kind for $75,000. Still a lot was left for a flurry of student theses and numerous URSI presentations. All was not rosy for we were competing with the Canadians using a technique called partial reflections. Jack Belrose had his facility in Ottawa, and his results and ours never seemed to agree; this was somewhat understandable since his latitude was higher than ours and theory would say that there should be a difference, but the arguments continued and URSI presentations ended up with a lot of heated discussions. Fortunately a wave interaction facility could be easily expanded to do partial reflections but not the other way around. Now we found ourselves doing two experiments and trying to decide which was better and more accurate. We concluded that wave interaction was a superior method, and we continued to expand upon that concept. Cohen, Portelli, Newman, Tomko, Richardson, Sulzer, Volz, Kissick, Baran, Breakall, Spooner, and Resnick were some of the students that helped the partial reflection and wave interaction experiments reach completion.

Now came another surprise. The high-power transmitter was beginning to cause interference to many other radio services. Our station, KA2XPO, being experimental, was sharing a frequency band with other more important services like the Canadian forest fighters and the Coast Guard on the Chesapeake. We set up a hot line, and if there was interference we would shut down. Soon managing interference problems was more time consuming than doing the research, and the facility had to shut down. However, we took this opportunity to explore doing this experiment at the Arecibo Observatory in Puerto Rico which had the incoherent scatter facility but it would not work too well at low altitudes, so Arecibo was a natural place to set up. Again we scrounged existing equipment and modified it including the log periodic antenna hung over the 100 foot dish for the main wave interaction antenna. This was not satisfactory to the radio astronomers who would have to wait for our 2-week experiment to conclude. The method did work, but there was a need for a new antenna devoted to wave interaction or ionospheric heating, as it was called then. Jim Breakall and I came up with a neat antenna farm of 32 log periodic antenna elements which was accepted by the observatory and built. The facility was in use for a number of years by several scientists besides Penn State, but it met with its destruction during the last hurricane that struck the island.

One major experiment that I performed at Arecibo that paved a new direction for my research activities was to heat the ionosphere from the high-power wave interaction transmitter in an extremely low frequency mode that would modulate the natural current system flowing overhead of the antenna beam. This modulated current system was in effect an antenna, and it would radiate at this extremely low frequency (ELF); hence a wireless (one without wires) antenna was formed in the lower ionosphere. The importance of this result was that one could more easily generate ELF waves which would reach the lower depths of the sea to communicate with submarines. Obviously the Navy would have interest in this concept. My students that played an important role with this idea were Allshouse, Carroll, Lunnen, and Long, who were always accompanied by Tom Collins, who provided the real technical know-how to make these experiments a success.

continued....

Boomer Chick

02-25-2005, 08:07 PM

The Navy was funding the development of a new heater facility in Fairbanks, Alaska, since the current system was more intense and ELF generation could be much stronger and might find actual applications to Navy communications systems. The facility was operated by UCLA, but Penn State was awarded a large contract to make the facility produce data and to access the capabilities of this facility known as HIPAS (High Power Aurora Simulator) - first set up to cause man-made northern lights - but that was not feasible. We showed that one could almost always generate ELF signals, but the strength was strong during electrojet activity. We also showed that we could send digital data (although at a low baud rate) by phase shift keying the ELF carrier. Our mobile receiving van was out several hundred miles from the HIPAS source, and we managed to receive these ELF signals. An interesting experiment we did was to create two ionospheric antennas in the D-region spaced one-half wavelength apart and phased either 180 degrees of 0 degrees in phase, creating what antenna experts would know as the end fire and broad side two element array. Our mobile van confirmed that we could make arrays of wireless antennas. Although two elements were the limit for the HIPAS facility, it did suggest that for a much larger facility one could perhaps construct a larger array of ELF elements and steer the beam of ELF radiation in desired directions. This was a first-time demonstration of this effect which could have bearing on future Navy system submarine communications, thanks to the efforts of Baker, Werner, Zain, Li, Sonsterby and Collins.

Now to save space I will take some gigantic leaps in time to conclude this discussion. Realizing the importance of ELF generation and ionospheric heating in general, the Navy requested proposals for the feasibility study of an even larger heater facility; effective powers of 10 Gigawatts over a large range of HF frequencies were in the specifications. At that time the antenna to handle this power and bandwidth and to be able to steer the heater beam in arbitrary directions was unknown. Penn State was one of three to be picked for the three-month feasibility study along with Raytheon and APTI (Arco Power Technology Inc.). Three months and $300,000 kept us up many nights, but we arrived at a rather unique facility of wide-band antenna and a modular approach to solid-state transmitters to meet the specs; I also recall we had suggested an underground control center that did raise eyebrows since environmentalists do like to disturb the permafrost. Our unique contribution involved the FIPA (frequency independent phased array) invented by Jim Breakall. It really solved most of the wide-band requirements. Unfortunately our antenna did not win since it was a new concept and the funding agency did not want to take on technological risk, but APTI did win with their straight forward array of closely spaced dipoles which later did cause some difficulty in "tuning" up the array. I said it was unfortunate that we did not win, but maybe we were fortunate for how could a University supervise such a large construction program from 5000 miles distance? However, APTI, asked use to join them as subcontractor and design their antenna, which we gladly accepted. This work was done from ARL with the aid of Lunnen, Werner, Breakall, Groff and myself. We were successful, and we turned our design over to APTI; they began the construction and built several stages of the antenna and continue to expand the facility to its final design stage.

My last few years at Penn State turned to different directions; I developed and taught a 400 level course on satellite communications, which was very popular and gave the students something they could use in the real world of industry. My research continued with industry support in antenna design but not for ionospheric heating experiments.

I would be open to comments about items I may have overlooked. You can reach me at AJF4@PSU.EDU. Although I have focused on ground-based methods, the Laboratory is very multi-dimensional and covers many other important aspects. Thanks to all that made my time at Penn State interesting; I hope to see or hear from you often.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note: I would imagine that putting in searches for his students might yield some interesting results. I wonder if he put the names of his students in for that purpose?

halva

02-25-2005, 09:15 PM

Halva writes:

"Jim Phelps you said that I should ask you this question here rather than privately."

=========

Yes, I did. And it sometimes takes me a little time to get into the answers. Do you always expect instant gratification.

Or shall you come to consider that patience is a good concept.

Besides, for you to be a valid environmental and global warming person, you were supposed to already know these concepts. You should have introduced them day one of this Forums thread. Then you would not be having the Reynolds predator problems in the big shell game.

It is absolutely required knowledge to make valid decisions for Kyoto type considerations of OD and GW criteria.

CO2 is the easy one, and I was writing that one up while you were over there in Greece demanding instant gratification answers of simple sciences on dynamic equilibrium that is part of mother natures ways. You seem to be one of the biggest offenders of mother natures concepts, at this point.

Jim Phelps the less friction that is visible between non-debunkers here the fewer the opportunities for Raynolds.

Surely, since I asked you to give me this information privately, if you had wished to scold me, you could have scolded me privately rather than in front of both our colleagues and our enemies.

By posting a second scolding message you have reduced the powerful political effect of the first informational posting (posting 6752)..

The political effect was powerful firstly because it is providing the first real evidence of all non-debunkers here working as a team.

Secondly, unlike information about Jews, it is information that I can send on to others and utilize politically, increasing the prestige of Jim Phelps among people who are trying to solve problems, not incapacitate would-be problem solvers.

Have you noticed that BC has changed her stance towards you? Did that happen automatically or did my persistence in not being distracted by the negative aspects of your postings have some role in her starting to do the same?

Now you have laid off with her.

Time to start doing the same with me.

You have my e-mail address. Please address personal criticisms to me privately. I am not introducing new content, or trying to dominate the discussion. Merely continuing to try to counteract Raynolds to some extent in his never-ending attempts to introduce diversions and derail what we have begun to try to do together.

halva

02-25-2005, 09:27 PM

Hey, Jimbo, they are debunking the hell out of you over at CTC.
They say that smart people don't reveal their personal info like you do.
Somebody s also posting chemtrail theories which directly contradict yours.
Can't say I diddn't warn ya buddy!
Better watch your back!
:

You see, this is the standard Raynolds trick. Anything to distract, make you anxious and apply your energy in a time-wasting manner. .

We have moved on here far beyond CTC, and it would be good if every non-debunker here could appreciate that.

These threads are aristocratic by comparison with CTC, despite the presence here of the debunkers.

stuart_allsop

02-25-2005, 10:21 PM

[QUOTE=stuart_allsop]

OK, I understand about microwaves verses the low frequency waves, now. Good. But will you remember that you said this in the future? Or will it turn into another scalar wave issue? :)

You know, you wait pages and pages to respond when I've gone on to new things and don't have easy access to the links to even find the pages, and I don't appreciate that. Well I do apologize most profusely, your excellency, for not being at your personal beck and call 25 hours per day, 8 days per week! I really must work on getting rid of all the other superflous aspects of my life, such as working, eating, sleeping, being with my family, etc., that take away precious time and prevent me from responding instantaneously to your every whim!

On your microwaves verses low frequency waves, you give a good argument and thank you. You are welcome

the use of the term scalar is neither here nor there anymore.... you didn't refute it as the science itself is on ongoing debate No it isn't. It's an open and shut case. If you don't beleive me, go to any university that you'd care to choose, walk into the physics faculty, pick a professor at random (or even a student, if you like), ask him to take a look at Berden's work and claims, and see what reaction you get. (I would suggest that you choose someone who is not holding a cup of any kind of beverage, or that you stand well clear if they are: they resulting gales of hysterical laughter comning from a mouth filled with coffee might do you some serious damage!).

I challenge you to do this, Boomer., to prove to yourself that Bearden is a kook, without a shred of science to back him up. Of course, we all know that you wont actaully do this: Chemmies never do anything that might force them to admit that they have been sucked into a hoax.

There were scientists who backed Bearden and there were scientists who debunked him. No, the only scientists were those who debunked him: the others were plain old kooks pretending to be scientists. Remember? Is your short term memory failing you, Boomer?

I don't know squat.... remember? I am on the outside looking in at all thisFair enought. So why do you flat refuse to listen to those of us who DO know squat?

and seeing that it's a new and debatable physics,No, there is nothing debatable about the physics: Bearden screwed up big time in his math, and was called on it by real scientists, yet he never corrected it, and continued to make the same false claims. What kind of a person does that make him, Boomer?

but regardless of Bearden, the HAARP facility and others like it are indeed operating all over the world. Do you deny that? Huh? Why would I deny that HAARP exists and operates? Sorry, boomer, but I'm not following where youa re going with this. Why do you want me to deny it?

When I quoted military personnel making speeches about weather manipulation, uses of HAARP (including stimulating tectonic movement or irritating it), and gave all the links regarding the earth's magnetic grid and how it ties in to the whole earth's mantel.... you failed to address any of that aspect.Well what exactly did you want me to say?

If this is turning into a pissing match about who replies when the other makes a point, then I think you are about 117 pages behind on that point! There have been NUMEROUS points that I made very clearly, eloquently, and with ample supprting evidenve in profinv one or another of your pet theories to be wrong, yet you let the vast majority slide, and seldom admit having been debunked. But when I don't happen to comment on one of your posts, you jump up and down in a hissy fit! Why the double standard, Boomer?

How do you know that the earth's magnetic energy grid There is not such thing as a "magenitc energy grid" around the Earth. You are repeating sombody's technobabble there. The earth has a magnetic FIELD (not "energy grid" but "field") that consists of imginary lines of flux that loop from one pole to the other, way out into space and back again.

does not indeed affect the mantel, Strawman, Boomer: I never claimed otherwise. Since the mantel contains large quantities of ferrous ores, how could it NOT be affected by magnetic fields?

that the use of the grid in HAARP experiments, especially near the poles, doesn't somehow disrupt the levels and charges of that grid,That's easy: Becuase there are no "charges" and there is no "grid". You seem to have adopted some pseudo-science snake-oil salesman's frothy techno-babble: It makes no sense.

and that the ionesphere in its stimulation and it's possible transmuting and amplifying energy directed back at the earth[quote] How do you "transmute energy"? I'm not sure I follow where you are going with that term.

[quote]:You chose one or two small arguable aspects, pages after it was posted, and expect me to argue it with you?YEs of course! If you were not prepared to debate the suject, why did you bring it up in the first place? As they say : "Put up or shut up".

You're right about microwaves and I was only including them as a general term without specifics and without knowing the far range of wavelengths from slow to fast, from long to short. My mistake.... and on going, at that...! :) Electromagentic waves do not change speed in a homogenous medium, so there is no such thing as "slow" and "fast" wavelengths: The speed only changes at the boundary intefrace between two dissimilar mediums.

Can't do it. I posted some very cogent links, read a lot of information and frankly, your little diatribe on microwaves doesn't lessen the possibility of HAARP impinging on electro magnetic systems of our planet. Huh? Another strawman, Boomer. Bait and swtich. We were not talking about HAARP affecting the magnetic field of the planet. We were talking about your claim that microwave energy can penetrate dozens of miles of solid rock and then start an earthquake. We can get to the effects of HAARP on the earth's magnetic field if you want, but first we have to tie up the loose ends about your microwave energy penetrating rock.

It's not all a hoax, Stuey, it's not all dreamed up and fabricated crap!Huh? What is not a hoax? I assume you mean that HAARP is not a hoax, in whch case all I can say is "STRAWMAN"!!!! I never even made the vaguest hint about me thinking that it might be a hoax!

Why do you think they're keeping it a secret? Well DUH! Why does the military keep ANYTHING secret? You aren't SERIOUS are you, Boomer?

I posted UCLA links on plasma experiments related to HAARP... why didn't you refute those?Why would I do that? Why on EARTH would you want me to refute that?

Boomer, you are not making much sense today! You need to lay off whatver it is that you've been smoking or drinking: IT has clearly affected your ability to reason logically!

What is your problem with being curious yourself?Huh? Why do you want me to be les scurios? That makes no sense at all! That's why I love science so much, because of the millions of as-yet unanswered questions that I'm curious about! Why do you say that I should be less curious?

Is it too hard to face? Is the science too beyond your ability to realize that so many people playing with so many unknown aspects of our planet and nature's balances could actually F*** it up someday or inadvertantly pump too much power into the grid or take too much out, or try to zap an area of the planet with low frequency pulsations?Well of course scientists can screw up! That's why they do the RESEARCH, Boomer! To understand how things work, so that they can AVOID screwing up! You really don't have much of a grasp of how science works, do you?

... continues ...

stuart_allsop

02-25-2005, 10:21 PM

... continued ...

Is that too hard to understand? Even the gov. and university sites talk about the experiments. Why don't you go debunk them? What is it with you today, Boomer? Why in hells name would you want me to debunk the government about HAARP? I mean, it IS their program, in part! They know how it works, and what it does, and they have published extensive details about it, which all make sense and conform to existing science with a high degree of accuracy, so why on earth would you want mt to debunk them?

Boomer, did you OD on something? I really cannot fathom what is up with you today!!!!

Come on now, Stu, open up a little and quit playing your BC-is-dumb therefore I-have-to-play-softball-with-her-in-front-of-others-so-they-won't -read-her-links game!!!! see above, Boomer. Lay off the heavy stuff, will ya?

You pick out a UCLA experiment, or go to the Poker Flats site or any of the scientists I linked you to, and figure out for yourself what it is they're up to, heh?WHY? WHY do you wnat me to do that? I already have a fairly clear grasp of what HAARP is and how it works and waht it does, so WHY are you telling me to go study that all over again? Get REAL, Boomer!

Or do you just want to play the naysayer on everything instead of getting yourself into the science of WHAT IS happening. Of all people on this board, I would think you would be the most curious, but it seems not to be so.

Why is that? Zlurple goot, swchik splont pllurch blarast plowsum flink!

That sentence makes just as much sense as what you wrote, Boomer. Just what exactly is your point? I really cannot follow you today.

I could certainly use your mind on the scientific aspects of what IS under study now. Plasma physics, stimulating the ionesphere, ions, what happens when ions are stimulated and charges changed from negative to positive in weather fronts, the electromagnetic planetary grid.....Whoa!! Slow WAY down there, Bloomer! To start with, charges do not change from negative to positive: A negative charge will ALWYAS be netative, because it is an electron, and a positive charge will ALWAYS remain positive, because it is a proton. Secondly, there is no such thing as an "electromagnetic planetary grid". Where are you getting this nonsense from?

Why aren't you making any sense?

:rolleyes:

stuart_allsop

02-25-2005, 10:29 PM

Stuart, do you have any thoughts on Anthony Ferraro, and if so, would you please share them?

The following reminds me of technology I discussed with gaiacomm:

"Dr. Ferraro has been the principal investigator of several Office of Naval Research (http://www.onr.navy.mil/) contracts through which he proved the feasibility to generate extremely low frequency (ELF) radio signals by modulating the ionosphere current systems from ground based high frequency transmitting facilities. Not only was generation possible, but he conducted numerous experiments to conclusively demonstrate that these signals could propagate several thousand kilometers and be successfully received by this method of generation. The immediate potential of such an ionosphere antenna for ELF generation is for long-path communications to meet future Navy needs. He has developed the detailed theory of coupling of ELF energy from ionosphere sources into the earth-ionosphere waveguide, evaluated the efficiency of such a technique, developed ELF receiver design procedure, conducted ELF communication system analysis and designed high-frequency transmitting arrays for generating ELF."What would you like me to say? HAARP is, in many ways, an extension of some of the groundwork he put in back in the 60's, but HAARP does it on a larger scale. and is better funded. Is there anything specific about his work that you wanted me to comment on?

Boomer Chick

02-25-2005, 10:30 PM

List of publications I found regarding physics and antennas, with Ferraro listed at the beginning. Very interesting stuff from the titles.

http://labs.ee.psu.edu/labs/dwernergroup/Publications/default.htm

Computational Electronmagnetics and Antennas Research Lab

http://labs.ee.psu.edu/labs/dwernergroup/Projects/default.htm

Papers by scientists involved in HAARP projects:

http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/imref.html

Just some papers from the HAARP: NOTICE THE DATES

IONOSPHERIC INTERACTION RESEARCH REFERENCES
by U.S. Authors: 1980 - 1999

Tripathi, V., C. L. Chang, and K. Papadopoulos, Excitation of the earth-ionosphere waveguide by
an ELF source in the ionosphere, Radio Sci., 17, 1321-1326, 1982.

Tomko, A. A., A. J. Ferraro, H. S. Lee, and A. P. Mitra, A theoretical model of D region ion
chemistry modifications during high power radio wave heating, J. Atmos. Terr. Phys., 42,
275-285, 1980.

Isham, B., C. LaHoz, T. B. Leyser, M. T. Rietveld, and T. Hagfors, Cavitating Langmuir turbulence
observed during EISCAT high latitude ionospheric interaction experiments, Phys. Rev. Lett.,
submitted March, 1999.

Bernhardt, P. A., M. Wong, J. D. Huba, B. J. Fejer, L. S. Wagner, J. A. Goldstein, C. A. Selcher,
V. L. Frolov, E. N. Sergeev, Optical remote sensing of the thermosphere with heater induced
artificial airglow (HIAA), J. Geophys. Res., submitted, September, 1999.

Villasenor, J.; A. Y. Wong, B. Song, J. Pau, M. McCarrick, D Sentman, Comparison of ELF/VLF
generation modes in the ionosphere by the HIPAS heater array, Radio Sci., 31, 211-226, 1996.

Wong, A. Y., J. Santoru, G. Sivjee, Active stimulation of auroral plasma, J. Geophys. Res., 86,
7718, 1981.

Wong, A. Y., G. J. Morales, D. Eggleston, J. Santoru, and R. Behnke, Rapid conversion of
electromagnetic waves to electrostatic waves in the ionosphere, Phys. Rev. Lett., 47,
1340-1343, 1981.

Basu, Sa., Su. Basu, P. Stubbe, H. Kopka, and J. Waaramaa, Daytime scintillations induced by
high power HF waves at Tromsø, Norway, J. Geophys. Res., 92, 11149, 1987.

Bernhardt, P. A., S. T. Zalesak, and F. T. Djuth, Comment on "Interaction of electromagnetic
waves in the ionosphere" by V. N. Laxmi and A. K. Saha, Radio Sci., 25, 85-87, 1990.

Bernhardt, P. A., C. L. Siefring, P. Rodriguez, D. G. Haas, M. M. Baumback, H. A. Romero, D. A. Solin,
F. T. Djuth, L. M. Duncan, C. J. Pollack, M. P. Sulzer, The ionospheric focused heating
experiment, J. Geophys. Res., 100, 17,331-17,345, 1995.

Carlson, H. C., and G. P. Mantas, An experimental test of the ionosphere electron gas cooling rate
by excitation of the fine structure of the ground state of atomic oxygen, J. Geophys. Res.,
87, 4515-4524, 1982.

Carlson, H. C., V. B. Wickwar, and G. P. Mantas, Observations of fluxes of suprathermal electrons
accelerated by HF excited instabilities, J. Atm. Terr. Phys., 44, 1089-1100, 1982.

Carlson, H. C., High power HF modification: geophysics, span of EM effects and energy budget,
Adv. Space Res., 13, 1015-1024, 1993.

Note: HF might mean High Frequency, but I doubt it means Hydrogen Flouride

***Djuth, F. T., M. P. Sulzer, J. H. Elder, and K. M. Groves, The CRRES AA2 release: HF wave-plasma
interactions in a dense Ba + cloud, J. Geophys. Res., 100, 17,347-17,366, 1995.

Fejer, J. A., Method of remote sensing of horizontal stratification due to an ionospherically
reflected powerful radio wave, J. Geophys. Res., 88, 489-492, 1983.

***Goldman, M. V., D. L. Newman, R. Paul Drake, and B. B. Afeyan, Theory of convective saturation of
Langmuir waves during ionospheric modification of a barium cloud, J. Atm. and Solar-Terr. Phys.,
59, 2335-2350, 1997.

Hagfors, T., Electromagnetic wave propagation in a field-aligned-striated cold magnetoplasma
with application to the ionosphere, J. Atm. Terr. Phys., 46, 211, 1984.

Huang, J. and S. P. Kuo, Cyclotron harmonic effects on the thermal oscillating two stream
instability in the high latitude ionosphere, J. Geophys. Res., 99, 2173-2181, 1994.

Huang, J. and S. P. Kuo, A theoretical model for the broad up-shifted maximum in the stimulated
electromagnetic emission spectrum, J. Geophys. Res., 99, 19569-19576, 1994.

Isham, B., W. Kofman, T. Hagfors, J. Nordling, B. Thidé, C. La Hoz, and P. Stubbe, New phenomena
observed by EISCAT during an RF ionospheric modification experiment, Radio Sci., 25,
251-262, 1990.

Kuo, S. P. and M. C. Lee, Earth magnetic field fluctuations produced by filamentation instabilities
of electromagnetic heater waves, Geophys. Res. Lett., 10, 979-981, 1983.

Kuo, S. P., The role of nonlinear beating currents on parametric instabilities in magnetoplasmas,
Phys. Plasmas, 3, 3957-3965, 1996.

Lee, H.-S., A. J. Ferraro, and J. V. Olson, Detection and characterization of geomagnetic
pulsations using HF ionospheric heating, Radio Sci., 25, 1429-1438, 1990.

Lee, M. C. and S. P. Kuo, Excitation of magnetostatic fluctuations by filamentation of whistlers,
J. Geophys. Res., 89, 2289-2294, 1984.

MacEnany, D., T. Wallace, R. Shanny and K. Papadopoulos, Deep underground exploration using
controlled ionospheric modification, Nature, 1996.

McCarrick, M. J., D. D. Sentman, A. Y. Wong, R. F. Wuerker, and B. Chouinard, Excitation of ELF
waves in the Schumann resonance range by modulated HF heating of the polar electrojet,
Radio Sci., 25, 1291-1298, 1990.

Meltz, G., C. M. Rush, and E. J. Violette, Simulation of D and E region high-power microwave
heating with HF modification experiments, Radio Sci., 17, 701-715, 1982.

Milikh, G. M., M. J. Freeman and L. M. Duncan, First estimates of HF-induced modifications of the
D region by the HF Active Auroral Research Program Facility, Radio Sci., 29, 1355-1362, 1994.

Milikh, G. M., Role of chemical effects in formation of electron concentration depletions during HF
heating of the ionosphere, J. Atmos. Terr. Phys., 52, 119-124, 1990.

***Papadopoulos, K., G. M. Milikh, and P. Sprangle, Triggering the HF breakdown of the atmosphere by a
barium release, Geophys. Res. Lett., 20, 471-474, 1993.

Rodriguez, P., C. L. Siefring, P. A. Bernhardt, D. G. Haas, and M. M. Baumback, Frequency-shifted
signature of the HF pump in the ionospheric focused heating experiment, Geophys. Res. Lett.,
24, 635-638, 1997. *** WHAT'S THE HF PUMP?

Rodriguez, P., E. J. Kennedy, M. J. Keskinen, C. L. Siefring, S. Basu, M. McCarrick, J. Preston,
M. Engebretson, M. L. Kaiser, M. D. Desch, K. Goetz, J. Bougeret, and R. Manning, The WIND-HAARP
experiment: initial results of high power radiowave interactions with space plasmas,
Geophys. Res. Lett., 25, 257, 1998.

Rodriguez, P., M. J. Keskinen, E. J. Kennedy, S. Basu, M. McCarrick, J. Preston, H. Zwi,
M. Engebretson, A.Wong, R. Wuerker, M. Kaiser, M. D. Desch, K. Goetz, J. Bougeret, and
R. Manning, The WIND-HAARP-HIPAS Experiment, Geophys. Res. Lett., in press, 1999.

_____________________

JUST READING THESE GIVES ME THE CREEPS! ANY RESPONSES FROM THE SCIENTISTS IN THE GROUP? PLEASE FEEL FREE TO TWIST ALL THE EXPERIMENTS TO YOUR LIKING. DON'T FORGET TO GO TO THE ORIGINAL PAGE AND SEE THE VAST AMOUNT OF EXPERIMENTS FROM 80 TO 99 ..... FASCINATINGLY EXPERIMENTAL! NOTICE THE BARIUM RELATED EXPERIMENTS? HOW DOES THAT SIT WITH YOU, JAY? WEIRD, HEH?

_________________________

Another publication search of related technologies but located in the Equatorial zone:

http://www.igp.gob.pe/paperrw.htm

87 - Equatorial Electric Fields During Magnetically Disturbed Conditions 1. The Effect of the Interplanetary Magnetic Field
Author(s): Fejer, B.G.; Gonzáles, C.; Farley, D.T.; Kelley, M.C.; Woodman, R.F.
Reference: J. Geophys. Res., 84, 5797-5802 (1979)

88 - Equatorial Electric Fields During Magnetically Disturbed Conditions 2. Implications of Simultaneous Auroral and Equatorial Measurements
Author(s): Gonzáles, C.A.; Kelley, M.C.; Fejer, B.G.; Vickrey, J.F.; Woodman, R.F.
Reference: J. Geophys. Res., 84, 5803-5812 (1979)
________________________________

Interesting implications here, Stuart, for microwaves:

Microwave Sounding of the Giant Planets, R.M. Killen, F.M. Flasar, Icarus, Vol. 119, No. 1, pp. 67-89, January 1996.

http://www.swri.org/3pubs/papers/d15/15pubs.htm

________________________________

OK, I'm done for the night! Anyone else still here?

BC

Boomer Chick

02-25-2005, 10:33 PM

Good one! I know the inside joke here, and I agree! SURPRISE!!!

BC ;)

stuart_allsop

02-25-2005, 10:51 PM

List of publications I found regarding physics and antennas, with Ferraro listed at the beginning. Very interesting stuff from the titles.

...

JUST READING THESE GIVES ME THE CREEPS! ANY RESPONSES FROM THE SCIENTISTS IN THE GROUP? PLEASE FEEL FREE TO TWIST ALL THE EXPERIMENTS TO YOUR LIKING. DON'T FORGET TO GO TO THE ORIGINAL PAGE AND SEE THE VAST AMOUNT OF EXPERIMENTS FROM 80 TO 99 ..... FASCINATINGLY EXPERIMENTAL! NOTICE THE BARIUM RELATED EXPERIMENTS? HOW DOES THAT SIT WITH YOU, JAY? WEIRD, HEH?

Sigh! Boomer, I just give up! I don't understand you at all. You rush through oodles of scientific papares that you don't stand a chance of understanding, briefly glance at their titles and jump to outrageously wild conclusions that scare you, shcok yo and titilate you, then ask us to make sense of it for you. When we do that, you don't even bother acknowledgeing it, and in fact by the time we have gotten around to carefully composing a coherent, clear and concise response, you have rushed off on yet another unrelated tangent, and are no longer interested in the previous thread at all! Then a few days later when your meanderings take you back across the same path, you have forgotten everything we told you, and we have to start all over again!

It's very, very tiring, and very, very frustrating. Frankly, I just don't have the time or the inclination to help you any more. I really think you need to take an adult education course in basic physics, because you just dont seem to have the bacground to undersand half the things that I'm explaining to you, or a tenth of the copious volumes of text that you rush throug at great speed without following any of it. At first I thought you were paying attention, ant that yo erally were interested in learning. Now I see that you were not paying attention at all half the time, and that the only thing you are interested in is posting as larege a volume of copy&paste material as you can possibly find, no matter how vaguely and distantly it is related to anything else, and regardless of wheather or not you even understood the title of the abstract.

Sorry, Boomer, but I just give up. I see no point in carrying on trying to help you understand science, becuase you just don;t WANT to understand it. All you want is to use me to sift through your wagon loads of useless data, pointing out what it all means, but only so that you can discard everything that does not support your pre-conceived concepts of how the world works.

I can't play that game any more, Boomer, because it just isn't worth it.

Interesting implications here, Stuart, for microwaves:

Microwave Sounding of the Giant Planets, R.M. Killen, F.M. Flasar, Icarus, Vol. 119, No. 1, pp. 67-89, January 1996.

This is EXACTLY what I'm saying, Boomer. Clearly you posted that because you thought iyou had found something to prove me wrong, sicne you thought it meant that that microwaves actually CAN penetrate rock. But becuase yo don't understand the basics, you don't eralize that the "giant planets" are not made of rock at all: They are made of gas, which micrwaves can penetrate. Saturn and Jupiter are the gas giants of our solar system, and they can be mapped with micrawaves, precisely becuase they are not made of rock, like the other planets.

See what I mean, Boomer?

OK, I'm done for the night! Anyone else still here?
And I'm done with you permanently, and I'm no longer here for you. Sorry.

Boomer Chick

02-25-2005, 11:23 PM

Oh GAWD, Stuart.... I'm sorry I'm all over the place today! I haven't smoked or drunk anything weird and am just overloaded with information and I thought all this time that you were refuting HAARP and what it can do. I honestly thought that.

I later realized the term "microwave" was wrong....so changing that into pulsed ELFs and VLFs, I would wonder if THAT is possible. OK? The pulsing of pressured earthquake zones? And why not?

Here's where I think you are:

1. Supremely intelligent -- LOL, fooled ya didn't I ?
2. You don't find any evidence to suggest that HAARP is capable of changing ion charges in the troposphere with the use of the lens effect of the ionesphere and the beaming capabilities of the HAARP arrays.
3. You really find me scattered.... yes, I am, but only because I'm overloaded with information that I find overwhelming and it all points to manipulation of energies which may indeed over years have affected the balance of our atmospheric systems.
4. You accept that Farraro worked on physics related to HAARP and the generation of waves and design of antennas to propagate those waves.
5. You know that HAARP exists
6. You know what it does. WHAT DOES IT DO?
7. Do you keep yourself updated on the most recent physics articles? To what physics journals do you subscribe?
8. Will you read the list of papers above from the HAARP involved scientists and give me your take on them? Do you deny that Barium was never used in the past for experiments?
9. You are humorous and kind to me! LOL!
10. You don't believe that playing the HAARP could in any way be dangerous to anything, anyone, or our planet. If not, why not?
11. You really could be researching about HAARP and finding out exactly what it does and you don't seem to be doing that. I'm truly concerned about the program and am on the trail to find information that will comfort me in my lack of trust. Will you help me in this?
12. You know that the electro-magnetic system of the planet does not involve any kind of pattern or grid. No lines of concentrated energy and no grid system, yet, at the poles the system is more concentrated. Yes?
13. You realize I do not understand as well as you the science of electronics, plasma physics, geoengineering, or astro-physics, let alone particle physics and electro magnetism. DUH! Know one knows this better than I.
14.You know that HAARP cannot and does not influence the weather in any way.
15. You know that HAARP is not capable of focusing laser or energy beams of any kind in order to become a weapon.
16. You know that HAARP is a benign program of experiments funded by the DOD, but its capabilities are only concerned with ...... what?
17. Will the scientists working on HAARP technologies know when enough is enough?
18. You know for a fact that the electro-magnetic system cannot possibly be affected by HAARP experimentation?

OK, so now you get the picture of the BC paradigm. LOL!

I'm worried. I'm searching for answers to questions simple enough and not able to get them answered. I suppose I should contact some of the scientists myself and ask some serious questions, just simple straight forward ones. Perhaps they'll respond, perhaps, not, but at least the human contact would help me deal with my lack of trust.

So there you have it, my brother, there it is for you to see. Now answer my questions and respond to the statements whether they're true or false..... when you have time.

PWEEEEEEEZE?????

Thanks for your patience and humor!!!!

I know nothing about STRAWMEN. I don't know the art of debunking or rhetorical argument except for the rhetoric of essay writing -- it differs. So if you see something that I say that strikes you a certain way, know that I'm not at all aware of what I'm saying in terms of rhetorical debunking styles or argumentative debate. OK? Thanks.

It's late, very late here, and even later where you are and I hope you're fast asleep.

Shouldn't have had so much coffee this evening.

OK, write me later....

BC :)

Insurrectionchemistry

02-26-2005, 03:00 AM

Some notes on scalar fields:

Scalar fields theory came from the science of Tesla. And example of a scalar enegy field are things like charged capacitors. They hold energy, a charge, in the form of lots of electrons in a dielectric that set up a voltage at the terminals of the capacitor. This is a constant.

Now the problems with waves entering the picture comes from issues like deforming the plates of the capacitor, this making for a time dependent variable in the field distribution, aka transient waves or impulses.

An example of using the effect comes in the form of a capacitor microphone or electret microphone. These convert mechanical deformation of the capitor plates into voltage at an audio rate. These techniques don't work, unless there is a trapped charge or scalar field between the plates.

It is modeling the scalar energy field and the transient impulses that give rise to the term scalar wave.

It all comes from Tesla's modeling the Earth's Potential Gradient, which is a scalar energy field for the most part. It stays around 400 volts / meter in strength and is charged literally by the Sun's nuclear energy emissions of electrons. The simple model for this huge amount of charge being delivered by the Sun are the plates of a capacitor, with the Earth surface being one conductive plate and the conductive ion regions of the upper atmosphere the other.

One can model this space charge trapped between these two electrodes as a constant energy field, a scalar energy field.

When one adds a pertibation to either conductive plate of this energy field, one sets into effect a wave transient in that field. HAARP makes upsets in this energy field of the capacitor. One can play games with the electrodes, changing their relative thickness by ionization. One can even play games with the energy field distribution when dumping in Barium, which will photo-ionize and change the charge profiles.

All the lingo on Scalar Energy is about this huge energy field that we live and walk in each day, that is set up by the Sun's radiation effect on the atmosphere. It is a scalar field, a constant.

But one can modify that constant and this is the issue for the scalar wave lingo. Just like pushing on the plates of a capacitor makes waves, pushing things in the ionosphere also makes waves from a constant energy field's redistribution.

All the scalar field and scalar wave lingo applies to that sort of mathematical modeling.

One can extract energy from a scalar field that is recharged by the Sun's energy. It is like draining the charge from a capacitor, in many ways. It is also like a capacitor that is kept charged by a nuclear emission source, which can be used to power things. All it takes is a connection between the two terminals and one gets a current. This is why all the research on UV and X-ray LASERS in the atmosphere. Some of this is about the ultimate of tapping this so called free energy method from the Sun.

The Star Wars ultimate weapon is one where this scalar field is discharge into the Earth's surface by a LASER providing a conductive shorting bar, like a huge lighting bolt. All of Star Wars was not about defensive things, lots of it is about the studies on the Earth's atmosphere effects. Which gets into HAARP connections to Star Wars.

Bottom line, is that there are scalar energy fields and one can excite waves into these fields and even extract energy from it at a constant rate.

halva

02-26-2005, 04:19 AM

jayreynolds

02-26-2005, 04:57 AM

Secondly, unlike information about Jews, it is information that I can send on to others and utilize politically, increasing the prestige of Jim Phelps among people who are trying to solve problems, not incapacitate would-be problem solvers.

I really can't believe you are trying to "increase the prestige of Jim Phelps", Wayne.
You are indeed a debunker's best friend.
What an amusing concept!

jayreynolds

02-26-2005, 05:25 AM

Jim Phelps' comments on 'Deep Shield' are more specifically connected with the aspect of the situation I am particularly interested in:

http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/jimphelps.html

Who can forget the frenzied 'hoax' denunciations that raged here and at Megasprayer, disorienting people one had hoped were tough enough and smart enough to stand up to it.

It's sad to see Brian Holmes buy into Jim Phelps' deception so easily. If you had a hand in it, Wayne, you should be ashamed. Holmes must be a pretty weak person, nothing to be proud of. Despite several attempts e-mailing him, he hasn't the guts to respond.

jayreynolds

02-26-2005, 05:39 AM

Sigh! Boomer, I just give up! I don't understand you at all. You rush through oodles of scientific papares that you don't stand a chance of understanding, briefly glance at their titles and jump to outrageously wild conclusions that scare you, shcok yo and titilate you, then ask us to make sense of it for you. When we do that, you don't even bother acknowledgeing it, and in fact by the time we have gotten around to carefully composing a coherent, clear and concise response, you have rushed off on yet another unrelated tangent, and are no longer interested in the previous thread at all! Then a few days later when your meanderings take you back across the same path, you have forgotten everything we told you, and we have to start all over again!

It's very, very tiring, and very, very frustrating. Frankly, I just don't have the time or the inclination to help you any more. I really think you need to take an adult education course in basic physics, because you just dont seem to have the bacground to undersand half the things that I'm explaining to you, or a tenth of the copious volumes of text that you rush throug at great speed without following any of it. At first I thought you were paying attention, ant that yo erally were interested in learning. Now I see that you were not paying attention at all half the time, and that the only thing you are interested in is posting as larege a volume of copy&paste material as you can possibly find, no matter how vaguely and distantly it is related to anything else, and regardless of wheather or not you even understood the title of the abstract.
Sorry, Boomer, but I just give up. I see no point in carrying on trying to help you understand science, becuase you just don;t WANT to understand it. All you want is to use me to sift through your wagon loads of useless data, pointing out what it all means, but only so that you can discard everything that does not support your pre-conceived concepts of how the world works.
I can't play that game any more, Boomer, because it just isn't worth it.
This is EXACTLY what I'm saying, Boomer. Clearly you posted that because you thought iyou had found something to prove me wrong, sicne you thought it meant that that microwaves actually CAN penetrate rock. But becuase yo don't understand the basics, you don't eralize that the "giant planets" are not made of rock at all: They are made of gas, which micrwaves can penetrate. Saturn and Jupiter are the gas giants of our solar system, and they can be mapped with micrawaves, precisely becuase they are not made of rock, like the other planets.
See what I mean, Boomer?
And I'm done with you permanently, and I'm no longer here for you. Sorry.

Stuart, I've wondered if your attitude isn't shared by her husband, who she has said here is an electrical engineer. Surely she could get input from him, or can she?

Several things I've come to understand might put it in perspective. This isn't meant to be sexist, demeaning, or derogatory. Not so long ago, people believed there was no essential difference between female and male brains. That has been scientifically proven false. I'll not say one is superior to the other, because God surely has reasons to have made us each in our own way, and complementary. But one thing I've noted is the particularly persistent nature of comprehension problems among female chemmies in the age range around the time hormones are changing.

I can remember my own personal experiences at the time male hormones were changing, and have to wonder how this aspect plays itself out in women. I'm glad that males only have to go through it once, for their own part, but in a sense, as long as we live close to a woman who is, we experience it's external manifestations as well. Just a thought, and I'll probably be "jumped on" for it, but I've always been one to speak my mind, at least since my hormones changed!

Insurrectionchemistry

02-26-2005, 10:27 AM

http://www.doewatch.com/chemtrails.html

Lots of words have been expended here in explaining how Teller was influenced by what was going down in Europe in the 1930s. Teller was but one tiny cog for a much larger wheel. All the richer peoples and bankers of Europe in these times were mostly of the same Jewish blood as Teller, and Hitler was going after their economic domination of Europe. Much of the wealth in Europe was centered in about 200 families, most all of whom are related to the Royal Rulers bloodline of David.

So, when Hitler went after getting the Jews out of the system in Germany, the writing was on the wall for the big banking systems like the Rothschilds and the rich Royal Jewish families whose money he held and managed. The war with Hitler became one of an economic domination battle between these rich Jewish families and Hitler's Germany.

The war started with the Jews declaring war in Hitler in 1933 and trying to ruin him and Germany economically. Then Hitler went after the economic tyranny process that was trying to control him with their big money systems. It ended up with Hitler invading France and all the way down to the Vatican systems in Italy.

Via rich money games with the UK and the US, this rich elite pitted the forces of the UK and the US against Hitler in a massive war. They supplied much of the money to build the bomb via the Federal Reserve System and the Jewish scientists worked night and day to blow up Hitler.

When one looks back on it, one can see that persons like Einstein were wanting a one world Government, and Jewish Teller wanted a big bomb project to promote that ideal. It became a system of power much like the Knights Templar of Europe, where the European Jewish Royal Line wanted to command the world via their economic domination. Today, many call these rich folks the Illuminati or sometimes the Bilderburgs.

It is this rich group of persons that hold the reins of control over the US, via economic tyranny. It is this system to which the Manhattan Project was married from the beginning. It is how the dangers of the Manhattan Project were covered up for so long, how human experiments were covered up by control of the press, and how the chemtrails issues are suppressed from the public's right to know.

It is a system whose economic designs on the US have produced the US Civil War and killed President Lincoln. And it is the same system of economic control that killed President Kennedy. The Manhattan Project is married to a group of criminals that will do anything for control and power. And it is this system that attempts to drive the world into their version of New World Ownership.

The promises of freedom from this group of criminals is more about their freedom of exploitation, rather than freedom of the people.

Boomer Chick

02-26-2005, 10:41 AM

Insurrectionchemistry

02-26-2005, 10:44 AM

Halva writes:

"You have my e-mail address. Please address personal criticisms to me privately."

========

Well, ya know, I will try to keep that in mind the next time I notice this type thing below that appears about the same time I am working on writing up the answers to your questions:

"Jim Phelps you said that I should ask you this question here rather than privately."

Now, It gets down to ---if---you can follow your own words. Sometimes it could take me a day or two to get back, as I do get out of range of the Internet occasionally.

If it was important, I will get to it, sooner or later. But impatience won't speed it up at all.

Nor will double standards.

The Reynolds Mafia is a bunch of goons, no intelligent person pays them any heed. They have been booted off every serious discussion list around. It took some time to even find this outland on Arianna's domain to study their games.

Their game is just standard outright denial, misinformation, smut tossing, and general mayhem.

Then one catches on and just ignores and laughs at the idiot's games. Nobody can take their buffoonery seriously. Just ignore em and watch their desperation increase.

This is probably the only place on the Internet to study absolute exercise of stupidity.

halva

02-26-2005, 11:46 AM

The Reynolds Mafia is a bunch of goons, no intelligent person pays them any heed. They have been booted off every serious discussion list around. It took some time to even find this outland on Arianna's domain to study their games.

This is probably the only place on the Internet to study absolute exercise of stupidity.

Yes, you are right. Unfortunately I made the decision to post at this forum without bearing in mind that they are on the lookout to find places from which they haven't been banned.

I was aware that Raynolds was stalking me, but I hadn't been thinking about him in the months prior to my first posting here.

Raynolds' method of targeting politically timid scientists and climate change activists and browbeating them into dissociating themselves from 'chemmies' is however a method that still works for him.

It's not true that no intelligent person plays them any heed. Look what happened with the producer of the BBC "Global Dimming" documentary. Of course Raynolds also ruined his own reputation with the person concerned. But he doesn't care about that.

This is why it's important to have a core of people who are tough enough and clever enough to stand up to tactics of this kind. This will make intelligent but politically naive people ashamed of themselves when they go to pieces under the attacks of a Raynolds.

People in such a group could include those at the moment playing lip-service to the 'chemtrails is a hoax' line, who would take the opposite stance if it were clear that what is being proposed is a comprehensive institutional counterproposal to the American-dominated status quo. This is the kind of counterproposal to which the social forums are supposed to be working.

People in this category may even persist for extended periods of time in a contradictory stance, as for example a Europarliamentarian saying that 'chemtrails are a hoax' when talking in the Europarliament but 'chemtrails are not a hoax' when talking to the social forum.

There is nothing new about duplicity of this kind. It is habitual with politicians.

halva

02-27-2005, 03:55 AM

Just as an afterthought on the previous posting: it is from the 'chemmie' sites that the chemtrails debunkers have been banned.

On general 'freedom of speech' forums like this one they are usually pretty much given a free hand.

So perhaps, Jim Phelps, when I said "you are right", I should have qualified my agreement more than I did.

In contrast to on-line freedom-of-speech forums like Arianna's, social forums in their already-existing form are not 'freedom of speech' forums. They do not offer freedom of speech to racists or ideologues for unregulated capitalism and they would not offer freedom of speech to anyone questioning the reality of anthropogenic climate change.

It is on the basis of these characteristics that they will impose their superior qualifications as a modern system of government and democratic policy-making to 'pluralistic' parliamentary forms of democracy.

jayreynolds

02-27-2005, 06:55 AM

Raynolds' method of targeting politically timid scientists and climate change activists and browbeating them into dissociating themselves from 'chemmies' is however a method that still works for him.

It's not true that no intelligent person plays them any heed. Look what happened with the producer of the BBC "Global Dimming" documentary. Of course Raynolds also ruined his own reputation with the person concerned. But he doesn't care about that..

Um, Wayne, have you forgotten that you tried, and failed, to describe one of the genre's most prolific global warming activists as a supporter of yur hoax? When you fraudulently edited personal e-mail from Ross Gelbspan and presented it here as if he backed your hoax, all I had to do was call him and ask him if he actually said what you made it appear he had said. He was appalled and demanded that you immediately retract what you had written.

Wayne, there was no "browbeating".

Um, Wayne, have to forgotten that you tried, and failed, to describe Dr. Sarah Cornell and the Tyndall Centre as providing support for your hoax? That failed, too. I sent them one e-mail letting them know who you really were and what you are up to.

Wayne, there was no "browbeating".

As for the people at DOX Productions, who created the BBC Horizon show on "Global Dimming", yes I don't care what they think about me. I wanted to know exactly who "advised" them to lean on the disaster aspect in their documentary, because they know it isn't proper to twist and editorialize in a documentary format, yet they were influenced to do so because they have an agenda. If you download the transcript of the show, you will find that almost no precautionary words, such as "uncertainty" "could" , etc. are used.

If the producers want to consider my reputation "ruined" by asking questions, so be it. They also have to consider what real atmospheric scientists had to say about their rather flagrant sensationalism:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=105
"It just so happens that most of the posts on this site have tried to counteract arguments from those who would sow fake "uncertainty" in the climate debate. But lest our readers feel that we are unjustifiably certain about our knowledge, let us look at a recent example of the opposite tendency: too much certainty.

A recent BBC Horizon documentary (transcript) raised the issue of 'global dimming' and argued that this 'killer' phenomena's newly-recognised existence would lead to huge re-assessments of future global warming. As part of the hyperbole, the process of global dimming was linked very clearly to the famines in Ethiopia in the 1980s and the implication was left that worse was to come. Media reports with headlines like "Fossil Fuel Curbs May Speed Global Warming" swiftly followed. So what's the real story?"

"It should however be stressed that there are as yet no completely convincing explanations that quantitatively match the (admittedly uncertain) observations of this phenomena (Liepert and Lohmann, 2004). However, the Horizon documentary nevertheless confidently asserts that:

Global dimming is a killer. It may have been behind the worst climatic disaster of recent times, responsible for famine and death on a biblical scale. And Global Dimming is poised to strike again."

"The suggested 'doubling' of the rate of warming in the future compared to even the most extreme scenario developed by IPCC is thus highly exaggerated. Supposed consequences such as the drying up of the Amazon Basin, melting of Greenland, and a North African climate regime coming to the UK, are simply extrapolations built upon these exaggerations. Whether these conclusions are actually a fair summary of what the scientists quoted in the program wanted to say is unknown.

"However, while these extreme notions might make good television, they do a dis-service to the science."

It seems, Wayne, that to the contrary of my "reputation being ruined", I am in good company!

jayreynolds

02-27-2005, 07:11 AM

In contrast to on-line freedom-of-speech forums like Arianna's, social forums in their already-existing form are not 'freedom of speech' forums. They do not offer freedom of speech to racists or ideologues for unregulated capitalism and they would not offer freedom of speech to anyone questioning the reality of anthropogenic climate change.

It is on the basis of these characteristics that they will impose their superior qualifications as a modern system of government and democratic policy-making to 'pluralistic' parliamentary forms of democracy.

Wayne, restrictions on speech such as you have consistently advocated are not "modern", nor are they "superior". They are an backwards ancient totalitarian anachronism. Anyone who says they believe in freedom, without that freedom being universal, is a hypocrite. In the end, they cut off their noses to spite their faces. Just like the CTC forum which restricted itself to 'activists only', and has gotten only 24 respondents to the poll in six months, such restrictions promote stifling insular delusions based on the censorship of "political correctness", and have led, in the case of chemmies, to wholesale adoption of an elaborate yet totally false paradigm. People like 'footsoldier', who know it is false are thus held in limbo, unable to break free by speaking out against the commonly held misinformation which they know has trapped their fellow travelers.

It is a sad state of affairs, and sadder still to see that you brought it upon yourselves, totally.
When will you ever learn?

jayreynolds

02-27-2005, 07:23 AM

Yes, you are right. Unfortunately I made the decision to post at this forum without bearing in mind that they are on the lookout to find places from which they haven't been banned.

I was aware that Raynolds was stalking me, but I hadn't been thinking about him in the months prior to my first posting here..

Not true, Wayne Hall, and you know it. On year ago you publicly announced the commencement of debate here and asked everyone to attend. Your denial of the facts continues one year later:

jayreynolds

02-27-2005, 07:26 AM

People in this category may even persist for extended periods of time in a contradictory stance, as for example a Europarliamentarian saying that 'chemtrails are a hoax' when talking in the Europarliament but 'chemtrails are not a hoax' when talking to the social forum.

There is nothing new about duplicity of this kind. It is habitual with politicians.

Yes, Wayne, you are indeeda duplicitous politician. And you are a failure.

halva

02-27-2005, 07:55 AM

A recent BBC Horizon documentary (transcript) raised the issue of 'global dimming' and argued that this 'killer' phenomena's newly-recognised existence would lead to huge re-assessments of future global warming. As part of the hyperbole, the process of global dimming was linked very clearly to the famines in Ethiopia in the 1980s and the implication was left that worse was to come. Media reports with headlines like "Fossil Fuel Curbs May Speed Global Warming" swiftly followed. So what's the real story?"

"It should however be stressed that there are as yet no completely convincing explanations that quantitatively match the (admittedly uncertain) observations of this phenomena (Liepert and Lohmann, 2004). However, the Horizon documentary nevertheless confidently asserts that:

Global dimming is a killer. It may have been behind the worst climatic disaster of recent times, responsible for famine and death on a biblical scale. And Global Dimming is poised to strike again."

"The suggested 'doubling' of the rate of warming in the future compared to even the most extreme scenario developed by IPCC is thus highly exaggerated. Supposed consequences such as the drying up of the Amazon Basin, melting of Greenland, and a North African climate regime coming to the UK, are simply extrapolations built upon these exaggerations. Whether these conclusions are actually a fair summary of what the scientists quoted in the program wanted to say is unknown.

"However, while these extreme notions might make good television, they do a dis-service to the science."

Raynolds, if you remember what I wrote in the first posting on this thread:

The genuinely grave situation of the planet should not become an excuse for manipulative danger-mongering and for acceptance of classification of climatic change as a 'national security' question, if this is going to mean a continuation of the dishonesty and lack of transparency with which the Pentagon has so far operated on this question, and characteristically operates on all questions.

The BBC "Global Dimming" documentary was undoubtedly a danger-mongering programme. I have seen it now, and I don't think that is an inaccurate characterization. But I also think it true that the scientists were saying what they said on the basis of a conviction that they were not exaggerating anything about the seriousness of the situation.

Danger-mongering and sensationalism, by the Pentagon, the BBC, the makers of "The Day After Tomorrow" has been pressed into service (i) as a substitute for giving the whole picture in relation to climate change, including the whole 'mitigation' dimension. Whatever the reasons for the suppression of this latter dimension (avoidance of private litigation, 'national security' classification, fear of 'mass panic') the effect of omitting it is to take the edge off the genuine urgency of the climate change issue.

Dangermongering also serves as a false solution to the dilemma posed by the fact that there are public issues where peer-reviewed scientific consensus is not allowed to prevail over views that are kept in the public arena for political reasons by powerful interest groups and defended ideologically on grounds of 'freedom of speech'. Because 'climate change sceptics' cannot be silenced, climate change non-sceptics resort to sensationalism and hysteria.

The result is politically, aesthetically, culturally and ecologically non-viable.

It is a much better arrangement for the anthropogenic climate change sceptics to be simply marginalized.

The mainstream political system cannot do this.

It is not that it cannot marginalize: it can marginalize viewpoints (communist, Hitlerite, etc.etc.) that it wants to marginalize.

But it has demonstrated that it cannot marginalize the viewpoints on environmental issues that have become associated with President Bush and his supporters.

Instead of doing that it makes programmes like the BBC 'Global Dimming' programme.

I think we (this is an exclusive 'we', not including interlocutor) should, and can, find a better solution.

halva

02-27-2005, 08:14 AM

Wayne, restrictions on speech such as you have consistently advocated are not "modern", nor are they "superior". They are an backwards ancient totalitarian anachronism. Anyone who says they believe in freedom, without that freedom being universal, is a hypocrite. In the end, they cut off their noses to spite their faces. Just like the CTC forum which restricted itself to 'activists only', and has gotten only 24 respondents to the poll in six months, such restrictions promote stifling insular delusions based on the censorship of "political correctness", and have led, in the case of chemmies, to wholesale adoption of an elaborate yet totally false paradigm. People like 'footsoldier', who know it is false are thus held in limbo, unable to break free by speaking out against the commonly held misinformation which they know has trapped their fellow travelers.

It is a sad state of affairs, and sadder still to see that you brought it upon yourselves, totally.
When will you ever learn?

The problem with CTC is not that debunkers are banned (which they are not: there are still debunkers there) but that there is no synthesis between the views of those like Sore Throat who take climate issues seriously and others there who tend to see the UN and the IPCC one-sidedly as a globalist conspiracy against the United States.

There is a need for a political entity to emerge which is not a party, which does not consent to be represented as telling only one side of the story, and which has zero tolerance for people like you.

In fact such entities do exist. All that is needed is that they should be strengthened.

What you say about footsoldier is misrepresentation, as she has told you many times herself.

halva

02-27-2005, 09:15 AM

Um, Wayne, have you forgotten that you tried, and failed, to describe one of the genre's most prolific global warming activists as a supporter of yur hoax? When you fraudulently edited personal e-mail from Ross Gelbspan and presented it here as if he backed your hoax, all I had to do was call him and ask him if he actually said what you made it appear he had said. He was appalled and demanded that you immediately retract what you had written.

Wayne, there was no "browbeating".

Um, Wayne, have to forgotten that you tried, and failed, to describe Dr. Sarah Cornell and the Tyndall Centre as providing support for your hoax? That failed, too. I sent them one e-mail letting them know who you really were and what you are up to.

Wayne, there was no "browbeating".

Yes, you successfully exploited the political inexperience and/or naivety of both of those people. The browbeating only comes in with nuts that are a little harder to crack.

Boomer Chick

02-27-2005, 12:03 PM

Yaak ------ I appreciate your recent articles...... whether they can be backed up with scientific data is another thing. I only read them quickly. I also noticed at the end of most of them, the writer, Caruba or Carasu or something. discredited his own objective reputation with sweeping judgments of the "greens" using derisive commentary and wild conjectures. I will read them again, but if he doesn't enlist scientists or at least scientific organizations composed of scientists to refute his claim of "no global warming," his rantings are only that..... rantings. I don't know how many scientific organizations I have posted on this one forum.... national, international, independent, and gov. funded.... who have stated through their observations and measurements that the situation regarding forced aerosol radiative warming is indeed a reality. It's not all about CO2, remember? We finally got to the point of accepting that there is a global warming situation and that most nations recognize it and are concerned about it, doing what they can do to start reducing various green house gases. Is this so horrible? Is this so offensive? I even posted articles and links to show that it isn't really that expensive to prevent green house gas emissions, either. You've taken a big step backward here. But I will try to find this opposing argument "global warming is a myth" and try to support it in order to prove to you that it is a weak and spineless argument. And your questioning about Ferraro is quite unecessary given the list of papers and research I posted regarding him. Do you need little Stuey for all of your thought processes?

Jay, you know in your little heart of hearts that your mentioning of hormones referring to me and women of my age is a low blow. You knew it when you posted it. Guess who else drew that card on me? Thetaloops! Yeah, a person who drew the low card because she didn't like me arguing with her self proclaimed vegan potty mouth husband that vegans are not necessarily automatically more spiritual than anyone else on the planet. Couldn't stand my opposition to his statement that Jesus was a vegan, either. Remember? Jesus ate fish! LOL! Anyway, because I skip around and ask larger questions, try to see the big picture, you two )Jay and Stu) decided it was time put Boomer in her place. Now that Stuart has renigged on participating, I'm going to ask you to answer the HAARP questions I put to Stu. Of course if you don't have time or are too busy with distracting the conversation, I will understand. Do you have any scientific research paper search links? I would appreciate them if you would be so kind.

I am still concerned about HAARP and its many scientists. And so, when I do contact a few of them, I may post their responses. The best way to get information is to go directly to the source if one can. Of all the threats to our survival, I do think man's tinkering with nature trumps any of nature's tinkering with man. Well, germs and viruses aside, man's zest for weaponry combined with his experiments with planetary energy systems will most likely produce more death, destruction, and misery, than anything nature has, can, or will do. It would be interesting to get statistics on this. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is how I see it.

HAARP may indeed be playing a causative role in some atmospheric systems or it could be instrumental in weather manipulation which no-one has been able to prove definitively yet on this board. As far as HAARP's capabilities of healing the ozone layers or holes, I haven't heard or seen the evidence on that, yet, either.

Halva seems caught in the political aspects of everything and the social aspects of board behavior. If his energy could be harnessed in the scientific area, not that he needs to go to college and major in science like someone suggested I do, but if he just worked on the science end of proving or disproving his assumptions, like "chemtrails", he might discover knowledge that he refuses or cannot even see at this time or might indeed be able to prove his case. He would also not be so dependent on a self proclaimed scientist whom he has never met in person, doesn't know anything about in terms of his professional credentials, and assumes the man has all the answers. It's rather pathetic.

Scientific research search links, please????????

BC :)

Insurrectionchemistry

02-27-2005, 12:07 PM

Some little hints on HAARP:

One of the thing one can learn from the careful look at how lightning works is that it is a two stage process. The first stage is the breakdown of the air and electrons set up a pathway that ionizes the oxygen atoms to make UV, which goes and makes a lot more ions. Then stage two comes from the larger ion path from the UV generation and the huge bright discharge occurs and the superheated air that makes the big boom sound.

HAARP seeks to look at these type effects and one of the things BC flagged on HF pumping is part of an early look at that type investigation.

Recall that I said HAARP is a lot like a flame speaker. For those that paid close attention to the flame speaker article, they saw plainly the word "amplification." In the case of the flame speaker the audio voltage is impressed across some gas ions in a flame, which goes to make some UV excitations. These UV factors go off to ionize lots more atoms and adds to the power of the audio. The audio power of a flame speaker is only part from the actual drive V*I product from the transformer output. The rest of the power comes from the UV triggering more excited ions from the heat pump effect of the flame. One can see that when one raises the temp of the flame or raises the number of ions by seeding the flame that the number of ions from the flame effects rises and the power of the audio likewise rises. The speaker uses the power of the heat in the flame as part of the audio power.

Likewise, HAARP seeks to use some of these same amplification effects.

And we all saw someone speak to the energy HF "pump" paper, and how the main disinformation specialists omitted that effect and the word amplication.

Just as UV issues are the big secret to the causation for global warming by the three prime factors persent earlier, stimulated UV is a prime mechanism of operation for HAARP in using the stored energy from the ions in the upper atmosphere.

Boomer Chick

02-27-2005, 12:26 PM

Excellent article from NewScientist.com on the skeptics and supporters of global warming:

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/mg18524861.400

An excerpt: (notice the spelling of "skeptics" is incorrect! LOL! )

Achilles' heel?

More credible is the suggestion that some other important negative feedbacks have been left out. One prominent sceptic, meteorologist Richard Lindzen of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, has made an interesting case that warming may dry out the upper levels of the innermost atmospheric layer, the troposphere, and less water means a weaker greenhouse effect. Lindzen, who is one of the few sceptics with a research track record that most climate scientists respect, says this drying effect could negate all the positive feedbacks and bring the warming effect of a doubling of CO2 levels back to 1 °C. While there is little data to back up his idea, some studies suggest that these outer reaches are not as warm as IPCC models predict (see "Areas of contention). This could be a mere wrinkle in the models or something more important. But if catastrophists have an Achilles' heel, this could be it.

Where does this leave us? Actually, with a surprising degree of consensus about the basic science of global warming - at least among scientists. As science historian Naomi Oreskes of the University of California, San Diego, wrote in Science late last year (vol 306, p 1686): "Politicians, economists, journalists and others may have the impression of confusion, disagreement or discord among climate scientists, but that impression is incorrect."

Her review of all 928 peer-reviewed papers on climate change published between 1993 and 2003 showed the consensus to be real and near universal. Even sceptical scientists now accept that we can expect some warming. They differ from the rest only in that they believe most climate models overestimate the positive feedback and underestimate the negative, and they predict that warming will be at the bottom end of the IPCC's scale

For the true hard-liners, of course, the scientific consensus must, by definition, be wrong. As far as they are concerned the thousands of scientists behind the IPCC models have either been seduced by their own doom-laden narrative or are engaged in a gigantic conspiracy. They say we are faced with what the philosopher of science Thomas Kuhn called a "paradigm problem".

"Most scientists spend their lives working to shore up the reigning world view - the dominant paradigm - and those who disagree are always much fewer in number," says climatologist Patrick Michaels of the University of Virginia in Charlottesville, a leading proponent of this view. The drive to conformity is accentuated by peer review, which ensures that only papers in support of the paradigm appear in the literature, Michaels says, and by public funding that gives money to research into the prevailing "paradigm of doom". Rebels who challenge prevailing orthodoxies are often proved right, he adds.

But even if you accept this sceptical view of how science is done, it doesn't mean the orthodoxy is always wrong. We know for sure that human activity is influencing the global environment, even if we don't know by how much. We might still get away with it: the sceptics could be right, and the majority of the world's climate scientists wrong. It would be a lucky break. But how lucky do you feel?

From issue 2486 of New Scientist magazine, 12 February 2005, page 38

_______________________________________

Might do a search on Patrick Michaels!

Boomer Chick

02-27-2005, 01:51 PM

"Global Climate Will Not Change Markedly"... a piece on Michaels:

http://www.virginia.edu/insideuva/2003/03/michaels_patrick.html

__________________________________

August 19, 2002

Patrick J. Michaels is senior fellow in environmental studies at the Cato Institute and is the author of The Satanic Gases.

Interview on CNN's Capitol Gang:
http://www.cato.org/research/articles/michaels-020819.html

_____________________________________

Excuse me? The Cato Insitutute? Isn't this a rather right wing think tank?

______________________________________

Pat Michaels is senior fellow in environmental studies at the Cato Institute and author of the upcoming book "Meltdown: The Predictable Exaggeration of Global Warming by Scientists, Politicians, and the Media" (Cato Books). PUBLISHED BY CATO??????

article written by Michaels: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A28338-2004May14?language=printer

________________________________________

BOOK: Meltdown : The Predictable Distortion of Global Warming by Scientists, Politicians, and the Media
by Patrick J. Michaels

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/1930865597/002-8779364-2060047?_encoding=UTF8&n=283155

________________________________________

Comment: Michaels represents a political position as well, as is obvious in his membership at the Cato Institute, his book, and his political references in his writings, as well as his funding. The topic of global warming isn't even listed on the topics list at the present Cato site, either. Why is that you think? Because the anti-global warming "campaign" was fueled by the Republicans' campaign (with tax payer funding) and those issues that opposed Democrats were pushed. Now he continues to appear on various TV shows to support the Republicans' stance on global warming which attempts to ignore any efforts to reduce green house emissions. Michaels supports one of the biggest conspiracy theories ever..... the rest of the world wants to bring down the US with it's Kyoto Protocol ... it's all a plot to bring us down!

http://www.cato.org/people/michaels.html

Speaking Topics
Environment and Climate
Clean Air Act
Global Warming
Environmental Health
Environmental Law and Regulation
Pollution
Selected Media Appearances

Pat Michaels discusses global warming on FOX News. (January 13, 2005) [Real Media]

Pat Michaels discusses weather issues on CNN. (January 12, 2005) [Real Media]

Pat Michaels debates Arianna Huffington on SUVs. [Real Media]

Pat Michaels discusses global warming on MSNBC's "Hardball." [Real Media]

Pat Michaels Interviews with Kate O'Beirne on Global Warming. [Real Media]

Pat Michaels Debates Global Warming on ABC's "Nightline". [Real Media]

Pat Michaels Debates the Kyoto Protocol on CNN. [Real Media]

Published Works by Patrick J. Michaels
Books
The Satanic Gases (2000)

Sound and Fury: The Science and Politics of Global Warming (1992)

Studies
"Long Hot Year: Latest Science Debunks Global Warming Hysteria," Cato Policy Analysis No. 329, December 31, 1998.

"The Consequences of Kyoto," Cato Policy Analysis No. 307, May 7, 1998.

Opinion and Commentary
"Reaping the Hurricane," A Cato Daily Commentary, January 22, 2005.

"Tsunami of the Absurd," A Cato Daily Commentary, January 10, 2005.

"Polar Disasters: More Predictable Distortions of Science," A Cato Daily Commentary, November 21, 2004.

"How Science Abuses Politics," A Cato Daily Commentary, November 14, 2004.

"Is Global Warming Always Bad?," Apple Daily, November 3, 2004.

"More Gas about Global Warming," the Washington Times, November 1, 2004.

"Debunking the Latest Hurricane Hype," FOXNews.com, October 7, 2004.

"Sowing the Hurricane Whirlwind," A Cato Daily Commentary, September 21, 2004.

"National Geographic Melting Down?" A Cato Daily Commentary, September 9, 2004.

"'Day After Tomorrow': A lot of hot air, USA TODAY, May 24, 2004.

"What Is Happening to Science?" A Cato Daily Commentary, April 20, 2004.

"Yawn - It's Just Political Scientists," A Cato Commentary, the Philadelphia Inquirer, March 9, 2004.

"A DEA Crackdown That's Going to Hurt Those in Pain," A Cato Commentary, The Washington Post, February 29, 2004.

"Kerry: Gorier than Gore on Global Warming," A Cato Daily Commentary, January 30, 2004.

"A Massive Extinction of Logic," A Cato Daily Commentary, January 13, 2004.

"Is Science Behind the Times?," A Cato Daily Commentary, December 30, 2003.

"Posturing and Reality on Warming," A Cato Commentary, The Washington Times, October 16, 2003.

"A Passion That Leaves Us Powerless ," A Cato Commentary, The Washington Post, October 1, 2003.

"Energy Tax Blacks Out Many Lives in Europe," A Cato Commentary, FoxNews.com, August 21, 2003.

"All that Hot Air Is a Killer; Energy Tax Blacks Out Many Lives in Europe," A Cato Commentary, The Boston Herald, August 17, 2003.

"Dreaded New Pollutant: Rain," A Cato Daily Commentary, July 3, 2003.

"Spinning the Tornado Story," A Cato Daily Commentary, Orange County Register, May 22, 2003.

"Tornado Spin," A Cato Commentary, NRO, May 15, 2003.

"Are U.S. Automakers Doing Their Best to Increase Fuel Economy?," A Cato Commentary, The Detroit News, April 27, 2003.

"Kyoto: The Hidden Cost of Victory in Iraq," A Cato Daily Commentary, April 16, 2003. This article originally appeared in The Washington Times on April 15, 2003.

"EPA: Shoot First, Ask Later," A Cato Commentary, March 19, 2003. This article appeared on FoxNews.com, March 11, 2003.

"Washington's Out of Its Orbit," A Cato Daily Commentary, March 13, 2003. This article was published in USA Today, March 11, 2003.

"The Real Risk of Terrorism," A Cato Daily Commentary, February 22, 2003.

"Is Europe Returning to the Dark Ages?" A Cato Daily Commentary, February 15, 2003.

"Press: We Decide, We Report," A Cato Daily Commentary, December 18, 2002.

"Brave New Climate," A Cato Daily Commentary, December 4, 2002. This article appeared in The Washington Times on December 9, 2002.

"Hotter and Greener in 2004?" A Cato Daily Commentary, November 14, 2002. This article appeared in the Washington Times, November 19, 2002.

"The Snow Jobs of Kilimanjaro," A Cato Daily Commentary, October 26, 2002.

"U.S. Facts vs. U.N. 'Science'," A Cato Daily Commentary, October 22, 2002. This article appeared online at Americanprowler.org, October 22, 2002.

"What's the Harm in That Hurricane Hype? Plenty," A Cato Commentary, Washington Post, October 6, 2002.

"The Devolution of Kyoto Power," A Cato Daily Commentary, September 19, 2002.

"Drought-Inspired Climate Panic," A Cato Commentary, Washington Times, September 16, 2002.

"Dry, Dry Again History Gives Us A Preview of the Drought Next Time," A Cato Commentary, Washington Post, September 1, 2002.

"How Now, Brown Cloud?," A Cato Daily Commentary, August 16, 2002. This article also appeared in the National Post August 16, 2002.

"Garbage In, Legislation Out," A Cato Daily Commentary, August 5, 2002. This article also appeared in the Washington Times on August 6, 2002.

"California's Dreamin'," A Cato Daily Commentary, July 15, 2002.

"Flips, Flops, and Facts About Global Warming," A Cato Daily Commentary, June 10, 2002.

"Review of the 2001 U.S. Climate Action Report," June 3, 2002.

"New Energy Bill Would Enact Kyoto Protocol," A Cato Daily Commentary, May 28, 2002.

"Europe Isolated in Global Warming Row," A Cato Daily Commentary, April 29, 2002.

"United Nations, Administration Battle Over Climate Chief," A Cato Daily Commentary, April 19, 2002.

"McCain's Failed Planetary Care Package," A Cato Daily Commentary, March 14, 2002.

"Science Junk Hits the Washington Fan," A Cato Daily Commentary, February 25, 2002.

"The Decline and Fall of Global Warming," in Jobs and Capital (1998)

"Human Influence on Global Climate," senior author, Nature (1996)

"Analysis of Winter and Summer Warming Rates in Gridded Temperature Time Series," coauthor, Climate Research (1998)

Transcripts
Pat Michaels Is Interviewed for CNN's "Capital Gang", Transcript, August 19, 2002.

_______________________________________

He's a writer and a speaker and a paid media Administration line-regurgitating shill !!!! Cross him off your list as a credible scientist.

BC :rolleyes:

Boomer Chick

02-27-2005, 02:21 PM

http://www.climateark.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=38865

Journalistic Balance as Global Warming Bias
Creating controversy where science finds consensus

Source: Copyright 2005, FAIR
Date: February 11, 2005
Byline: Jules Boykoff and Maxwell Boykoff

A new study has found that when it comes to U.S. media coverage of global warming , superficial balance—telling "both" sides of the story—can actually be a form of informational bias. Despite the consistent assertions of the United Nations-sponsored Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) that human activities have had a "discernible" influence on the global climate and that global warming is a serious problem that must be addressed immediately, "he said/she said" reporting has allowed a small group of global warming skeptics to have their views greatly amplified.

The current best climate research predicts that the Earth's temperature could rise by as much as 10.4° F by 2100. Studies show that this temperature increase could contribute to a sea-level rise of up to 35 inches by 2100—threatening to flood tens of millions of inhabitants of coastal communities. Warming on this scale would extend the range and activity of pests and diseases, and force land and marine life to migrate northward, thereby endangering ecosystems, reproductive habits and biodiversity.

Moreover, climate forecasts include more and higher-intensity rainfall in some regions, leading to greater flood and landslide damage. In other regions, forecasts call for increased droughts, resulting in smaller crop yields, more forest fires and diminished water resources. These climate shifts threaten the lives and livelihoods of people around the globe, with a greater impact on the most vulnerable.

These gloomy findings and dire predictions are not the offerings of a gaggle of fringe scientists with an addiction to the film Apocalypse Now. Rather, these forecasts are put forth by the IPCC, the largest, most reputable peer-reviewed body of climate-change scientists in history. Formed by the United Nations in 1990 and composed of the top scientists from around the globe, the IPCC employs a decision-by-consensus approach. In fact, D. James Baker, administrator of the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and undersecretary for oceans and atmosphere at the Department of Commerce under the Clinton administration, has said about human contributions to global warming (Washington Post , 11/12/97) that "there's no better scientific consensus on this on any issue I know—except maybe Newton's second law of dynamics."

read more.....

_________________________________
Another excerpt:

Dueling scientists

As we have seen, the "dueling scientists" became a common feature of the prestige-press terrain in the United States. Late in 1990, a coherent and cohesive group emerged to challenge the claims that were made in the IPCC reports. S. Fred Singer, Don Pearlman, Richard Lindzen, Sallie Baliunas, Frederick Seitz, Robert Balling Jr., Patrick Michaels and others began to speak out vociferously against the findings of the IPCC. This group is what Jeremy Leggett's book The Carbon War dubbed the "Carbon Club," describing them as "the foot soldiers for the fossil-fuel industries."

Scientists from the Carbon Club consistently found their way into the news. For example, in a Washington Post article headlined "Primary Ingredient of Acid Rain May Counteract Greenhouse Effect" (9/17/90), the skeptics were afforded prominent billing. Discussing the relative role of sulfur dioxide, the article stated:

If the role of sulfur cooling proves to be large, and this is still far from certain, some researchers say it could be necessary to continue burning fossil fuels in order to produce sulfur dioxide to fight the carbon dioxide-driven warming. "I would not be surprised if somebody suggested concentrating fossil fuel power plants on the eastern margins of continents, which would put a lot of sulfates into the atmosphere, which would rain out over the oceans, which have a tremendous capacity to absorb acidity," [Patrick] Michaels [of the University of Virginia] said. "This plan would make sense because the prevailing winds blow from east to west."

In another article from the New York Times (4/22/98), another global-warming skeptic, Dr. Frederick Seitz, was portrayed as supporting a supposedly scientific study pushing the idea that carbon dioxide emissions were not a threat to the climate, but rather "a wonderful and unexpected gift from the Industrial Revolution."

These global warming skeptics deflect attention away from the IPCC's consensus on the human contributions to global warming, thereby providing space for politicians to call for "more research" before tinkering with the status-quo consumption of fossil fuels. Through "balanced" coverage, the mass media have misrepresented the scientific consensus of humans' contribution to global warming as highly divisive, what the Washington Post (10/31/92) once referred to as "the usual fickleness of science." Such coverage has served as a veritable oxygen supply for skeptics in both the scientific and political realms.

_________________________________

The Carbon Club, heh? That's quite interesting!

My case is closed and if anyone here wants to doubt that man-made gases contribute to radiative forcing and thus overall global warming and climate change, you'll have to find irrefutable evidence from credible scientists, not psuedo-right-wing jingoist "Carbon Club" mouthpieces. Follow the money, honey!

____________________________________

Thanks, IS, for the update on the HAARP factors. Yes, I noticed the HF pump. I asked "what is it?" Can you answer that? Is it what you have been decribing or is it something else?

Thanks!

BC

foot_soldier

02-27-2005, 03:28 PM

Boomer Chick wrote:
.....(Pat) Michaels supports one of the biggest conspiracy theories ever..... the rest of the world wants to bring down the US with its Kyoto Protocol ... it's all a plot to bring us down!.....
Total BS of course. Talk about paranoid. Talk about a cult.

Where have you been all these years? <grin>

What do you think Reynolds, Yaak and Allsop are really doing here?

:wink:

foot_soldier

02-27-2005, 03:43 PM

Re: Dr. Frederick Seitz, the brilliant entity who thinks rising atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration is "a wonderful and unexpected gift from the Industrial Revolution", you might be interested in his connection with the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine (OISM):

PR Watch
http://www.prwatch.org/improp/oism.html

Excerpt:

.....The OISM is located on a farm about 7 miles from the town of Cave Junction, Oregon (population 1,126). Located slightly east of Siskiyou National Forest, Cave Junction is one of several small towns nestled in the Illinois Valley, whose total population is 15,000. Best known as a gateway to the Oregon Caves National Monument, it is described by its chamber of commerce as "the commercial, service, and cultural center for a rural community of small farms, woodlots, crafts people, and families just living apart from the crowds. ... It’s a place where going into the market can take time because people talk in the aisles and at the checkstands. Life is slower, so you have to be patient. You'll be part of that slowness because it is enjoyable to be neighborly." The main visitors are tourists who come to hike, backpack and fish in the area's many rivers and streams. Cave Junction is the sort of out-of-the-way location you might seek out if you were hoping to survive a nuclear war, but it is not known as a center for scientific and medical research. The OISM would be equally obscure itself, except for the role it played in 1998 in circulating a deceptive "scientists' petition" on global warming in collaboration with Frederick Seitz, a retired former president of the National Academy of Sciences.....

Here is Seitz's 1998 petition project:

Petition Project
http://www.oism.org/pproject/

And here is some additional information:

ExxonSecrets Factsheets
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/personfactsheet.php?id=6

Excerpt:

.....A June 2000 Business Week article referred to physicist Frederick Seitz as "the granddaddy of global-warming skeptics". Seitz was once a director and shareholder of a company that operated coal-fired power plants.

Dr. Seitz is a former President of the National Academy of Sciences, but the Academy disassociated itself from Seitz in 1998 when Seitz headed up a report designed to look like an NAS journal article saying that carbon dioxide poses no threat to climate. The report, which was supposedly signed by 15,000 scientists, advocated the abandonment of the Kyoto Protocol. The NAS went to unusual lengths to publically distance itself from Seitz' article. Seitz signed the 1995 Leipzig Declaration.....

Boomer Chick

02-27-2005, 05:07 PM

Total BS of course. Talk about paranoid. Talk about a cult.

Where have you been all these years? <grin>

What do you think Reynolds, Yaak and Allsop are really doing here?

:wink:

Yeah, I got the whole list of cultist psuedo-scientists' names! The gang here seems to flip-flop a bit and I imagine they e-mail one another and talk strategies, which, excuse me, I don't even bother with.

If you must know, I joined CTC in late 2003. I heard of the Reynold's group from posting on CTC for about 6 months, and some little right wing nerd from Mexico (originally from Colorado), Letxa, with a mind like a pinto bean, decided to offend everyone on CTC with his self proclaimed entitlement to "enlighten" all of us. How he expressed himself was for the most part, not absolutely rude, but for most of us, frustrating and difficult because he wouldn't read links provided, wouldn't academically refute claims, and beyond the subject of chemtrails, he would behave in a similar manner arguing political topics with only his brand of logic and without respect for the subject at hand, always having to be right even if he was proven wrong. Anway, his rudeness escalated to approach college student's inquiring about information links regarding the subject of "chemtrails" for a research paper and he posted first with a criticism of the student's teacher, an overt defilement of our group intelligence, and a comparison of chemtrails as more far-out and whacky than the UFO subject. Well, one has to laugh at all of it and either accept the guy as a closed minded ego-maniac and fool, or a paid government disinformation artist.... a.k.a.... debunker. So, I was instrumental in getting him kicked off the board because of his operating style. It had nothing to do with his taking opposing positions, in fact we liked debating with people who knew how to debate, like Wolf Larson and a couple of others. I'm not saying swampgas and mech were perfect gentlemen by any means, but those of us on the board at that time who didn't fight with the sandbox mentality, were quite able to keep our cool and debate with common sense and intelligence those who showed the same regard and respect for true debate.

Just like you, I want to know the truth and know it when I read it. However, I am handicapped as far as proving physics theories and HAARP, right now, is my research baby. I'm taking a break on it today. Trying with all our might to get Bushco out of office would be our best chance to improve the environment. That's the bottom line and 2006 is coming right up! I was very active politically ---- a poll watcher, a precinct leader and I was mad woman on the phonebanks! Moveon.org thrilled me and involved me, also, and I followed all the voting fraud news and inside information as well. Well, that's where I was during campaign season.

And as far as two parties -- I'm aware of that, too.... but the lesser of two evils would have proved better for the environment than the present PTB.

TC,

BC ;)

jayreynolds

02-27-2005, 05:58 PM

What you say about footsoldier is misrepresentation, as she has told you many times herself.

No, Wayne, she has admitted that she was for her part responsible for the promulgation of the barium hoax, a hoax which she has been running away from for years now. She is very ashamed of it and doesn't even want to speak of it at all. 'Footsoldier' has seen what happens to those who speak out against the chemmie cult. It isn't pretty. She knows just how much evil has gone on among her cohorts, what sort of lies, exagerrations, duplicity and coverups there are. It makes her sicker than ever. She has a conscience, but fears listening to it and acting as she knows she should.

That, coupled with the "politically correct" suppression of free speech imposed by the hive mentality of your people, have so far prevented her inner sense of shame from overcoming the threat of retribution she would receive if she came out and spoke the truth she is aware of.

But deception imposes it's own harsh penalty on those who use it.
And those who practice censorship fall under strong delusion, even as they wish to impose delusion upon others.

In essence, the sort of totalitarian measures you have helped impose have led to your people becoming ever-more misled, ever more marginalised, and ever-more seen in disdain by people who live outside your self-deluded 'reality'. You spite our face, though you'd like to see yourselves as beautiful people. The end result is an ugly bunch of outsiders, franticaly barring the doors lest a slight bit of light enter the tomb you have built for yourselves.

Tough luck for her, for you, and for those in your influence, and out of reach through your own hand.

Sick, that's what you are.

jayreynolds

02-27-2005, 06:01 PM

Scientific research search links, please????????

BC :)
Sorry, it is useless to try explaining this sort of complex issues to one who isn't ready to speakm the language.

foot_soldier

02-27-2005, 06:29 PM

Jay Reynolds wrote:
.....Sick, that's what you are.....
That's your opinion, Reynolds.

You've made a federal case out of a situation that is ancient history at this late date. A great deal of information has become available over the last five years. I think that's what you don't like to see being discussed in public venues.

Your self-righteous orientation to people who are slogging their way through piles of crap to arrive at a cohesive overview of the problems we face is getting ridiculous. It's your ruthless malignant slandering of people you don't even know that has gotten you banned from so many public forums - not the fact that you have a contrarian perspective on the matters at hand. Nobody is trying to curtail your "free speech" privileges - as if they could in the first place.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-27-2005, 08:13 PM

The term "HF pump" in that study was the "High Frequency" Radio Frequency E/M excitation that helped to ionize the ion region moreso.

The "pump" language is similar to how they speak of the gas media in a gas LASER being pumped by some form of wave energy. With LASERS they usually use light directly as a pump and the absorption lines of the gas media. In these atmospheric studies they use RF energy, which causes additional ions and elevated energy states.

So, like in LASERS the term means Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission.........the same conditions can happen when HAARP RF is used as an energy pump. If you look at certain CO2 LASER systems [SynRad is one company---http://www.synrad.com/Welcome/about_synrad.htm], these use RF power to establish the ions and elevated energy states, from which stimulated emissions and amplification can occur.

HF in that article means High Frequency. Look up RF pumped CO-2 LASERS for the details on the energy state issues and how it makes for Lasing. HAARP uses these principles with HF pumping.

halva

02-27-2005, 09:01 PM

It's your ruthless malignant slandering of people you don't even know that has gotten you banned from so many public forums - not the fact that you have a contrarian perspective on the matters at hand. Nobody is trying to curtail your "free speech" privileges - as if they could in the first place.

Once again this line of approach with Raynolds is a form of appealing to his non-existent "better self".

Raynolds trades on the American fetishism of 'freedom of speech'. For as long as you do not get over it, he has you by the short-and-curlies.

And America has the world in the same grip.

I am trying to curtail his free speech, in as much of my own vital space as possible. That is my right under the principle of freedom of association.

Any voluntary association of people has the right not to recognize Raynold's claim to be 'free' to address it.

And the citizenry has the right to grant law-making powers and executive powers to any voluntary association of people it chooses to. That right is underwritten by the United States' republican Constitution.

The political forces already exist that will deny Raynolds his freedom to continue saying what he says - and be heard by any entity that matters.

In other words the political forces already exist that can turn Raynolds into a 'chemmy'.

halva

02-27-2005, 09:10 PM

Halva seems caught in the political aspects of everything and the social aspects of board behavior. If his energy could be harnessed in the scientific area, not that he needs to go to college and major in science like someone suggested I do, but if he just worked on the science end of proving or disproving his assumptions, like "chemtrails", he might discover knowledge that he refuses or cannot even see at this time or might indeed be able to prove his case. He would also not be so dependent on a self proclaimed scientist whom he has never met in person, doesn't know anything about in terms of his professional credentials, and assumes the man has all the answers. It's rather pathetic.

Scientific research search links, please????????

BC :)

I am not going to try to justify any of my faults or weaknesses, but I have outlined on a number of occasions my view that the 'chemtrails' non-reception problem is a problem of the 'receiver', not of the 'transmitter'.

Everything I do centres on that assumption, which in no way precludes others from looking for 'evidence'.

Must we all be doing the same thing?

However, note, BC, that the debunkers' condescending, patronising and sexist comments about you focus on this 'evidence-hunting' aspect of your behaviour, which is formidably energetic, and indicative of a kind of intelligence, and I am not going to criticise it. But note that they make fun of it.

What does this show about them? They know that it is 'the receiver' is not working. They know that because they are part of the non-functioning receiver.

By the way, who is that scientist you refer to? I am mystified.

halva

02-27-2005, 09:19 PM

Michaels supports one of the biggest conspiracy theories ever..... the rest of the world wants to bring down the US with it's Kyoto Protocol ... it's all a plot to bring us down!

Yes. We should say that he is quite right. That will make more leftists and commies who at the moment are dispersing their energies on nonsense concentrate on Kyoto and climate change and see its potential.

halva

02-27-2005, 09:31 PM

some little right wing nerd from Mexico (originally from Colorado), Letxa, with a mind like a pinto bean, decided to offend everyone on CTC with his self proclaimed entitlement to "enlighten" all of us. How he expressed himself was for the most part, not absolutely rude, but for most of us, frustrating and difficult because he wouldn't read links provided, wouldn't academically refute claims, and beyond the subject of chemtrails, he would behave in a similar manner arguing political topics with only his brand of logic and without respect for the subject at hand, always having to be right even if he was proven wrong. Anway, his rudeness escalated to approach college student's inquiring about information links regarding the subject of "chemtrails" for a research paper and he posted first with a criticism of the student's teacher, an overt defilement of our group intelligence, and a comparison of chemtrails as more far-out and whacky than the UFO subject. Well, one has to laugh at all of it and either accept the guy as a closed minded ego-maniac and fool, or a paid government disinformation artist.... a.k.a.... debunker. So, I was instrumental in getting him kicked off the board because of his operating style.

It was unfortunate that Mojo, who was so masterful in dispatching of letxa at CTC, when he later came here did not wait long enough to study all the parameters in the interaction here and tried to take on Raynolds solo.

That was not a smart move, and when he came off second best as a result of that he got disillusioned.

stuart_allsop

02-27-2005, 10:15 PM

Jesus ate fish!Yes. As a devout Jew, he also ate the Passover, which usually involved roast lamb, and he also took part in all the other Jewish feasts and festivals, many of which involved ceremonial sacrifice, cooking, and eating of various animals. As a devout Jew, Jesus could most certainly NOT have been a vegitarian! Even to suggest it is absurd.

letxa2000

02-27-2005, 11:50 PM

BoomerChick: So, I was instrumental in getting him kicked off the board because of his operating style.

Did you mention the part where you got kicked off, too? And you got kicked off for violating the rules at CTC. I was kicked off because people at CTC don't like disagreement but I didn't break any rules.

Halva: It was unfortunate that Mojo, who was so masterful in dispatching of letxa at CTC...

Hahahahah. Sorry, it's been awhile since I visited this thread. Can't believe it's at 600+ pages now. I also can't believe your above comment, Halva. I totally destroyed Mojoman and his entire theory. Click here (http://www.letxa.com/nexradhoax.php) for details. Anyone that thinks Mojo "masterfully dispatched" me in that debate is as delusional as mojoman himself.

halva

02-28-2005, 12:00 AM

Did you mention the part where you got kicked off, too? And you got kicked off for violating the rules at CTC. I was kicked off because people at CTC don't like disagreement but I didn't break any rules.

Hahahahah. Sorry, it's been awhile since I visited this thread. Can't believe it's at 600+ pages now. I also can't believe your above comment, Halva. I totally destroyed Mojoman and his entire theory. Click here (http://www.letxa.com/nexradhoax.php) for details. Anyone that thinks Mojo "masterfully dispatched" me in that debate is as delusional as mojoman himself.

Letxa always responds with most interest to the mention of his own name, missing most of what's happening when people aren't talking about him.

By the way, I am not 'kicked off' CTC. I just don't post there much.

Note Letxa's mention of 'rules', which the debunkers at CTC to a man were always screaming should be refined and sharpened, so as then to devote themselves to twisting and manipulating them.

Freedom of association bestows on free citizens powers of discretion and freedom to override rules.

jayreynolds

02-28-2005, 03:46 AM

I am not going to try to justify any of my faults or weaknesses, but I have outlined on a number of occasions my view that the 'chemtrails' non-reception problem is a problem of the 'receiver', not of the 'transmitter'.
Everything I do centres on that assumption, which in no way precludes others from looking for 'evidence'.
Must we all be doing the same thing?
However, note, BC, that the debunkers' condescending, patronising and sexist comments about you focus on this 'evidence-hunting' aspect of your behaviour, which is formidably energetic, and indicative of a kind of intelligence, and I am not going to criticise it. But note that they make fun of it.
What does this show about them? They know that it is 'the receiver' is not working. They know that because they are part of the non-functioning receiver.
By the way, who is that scientist you refer to? I am mystified.

The pot calls the kettle black, and the blind lead the blind. I cut off their tails with a carving knife. See how they run.............................

jayreynolds

02-28-2005, 04:15 AM

Did you mention the part where you got kicked off, too? And you got kicked off for violating the rules at CTC. I was kicked off because people at CTC don't like disagreement but I didn't break any rules.

well, I went back over what happened at CTC with this BC. she has always been against free speech and ran the campaign along with Wayne to ban anyone who didn't "believe in the reality of chemtrails". Yes, I think she came here as she said, because Wayne asked her to for months, not to find truth, but to be his surrogate and post a lot of spam and act dumb when we tried to set her straight.

Yet with all her faults, she has some good sides. She is far more open than most chemmies, when she lets her guard down.
She has more conscience than 'footsoldier', though, and couldn't allow Jim Phelps to spread his BS unremarked, or Wayne his pathetic passive behavior. She sees Jimbo for the fraud he is and the disrepute his BS brings, and actually has the guts to call him on it. She sees how Wayne is holding on a senseless defensive position, yet offers no defense, and has enough independence to tell him how pathetic that is. For that I commend her.

Personally, though, you can't really teach an old bitch who's made up her mind, any new tricks.
For remarking on that, his refusal to accept both BC and Waynes denial of free speech, and calling Wayne on his intentional ignorance(speak of balck pots!) I commend Jim Phelps!

For my own part, perhaps I have no redeeming characteristics, yet I still want to find out if this board's software can handle 4 digits in it's page counter, and five in it's post views counter.

halva

02-28-2005, 04:25 AM

"Pathetic" is merely the Greek word for "passive". The opposite of "energetic".

And passivity of course is an energetic principle of judo.

As for the salami slicing - of course the knife comes out again. Now it's Jim Phelps who is the good guy and BC my marionette.

Why don't you see if you can get a double act going with letxa, now that he's come back.

jayreynolds

02-28-2005, 05:00 AM

That's your opinion, Reynolds.

You've made a federal case out of a situation that is ancient history at this late date. A great deal of information has become available over the last five years. I think that's what you don't like to see being discussed in public venues.

Your self-righteous orientation to people who are slogging their way through piles of crap to arrive at a cohesive overview of the problems we face is getting ridiculous. It's your ruthless malignant slandering of people you don't even know that has gotten you banned from so many public forums - not the fact that you have a contrarian perspective on the matters at hand. Nobody is trying to curtail your "free speech" privileges - as if they could in the first place.

Well, maybe you'd like your involvement as editor of "Chemtrails Over America" to be "Ancient History".
http://home1.gte.net/quakker/documents/chemtrails_over_america.htm#coa

But you can't run away from the past, 'footsoldier'. The past follows like a 'shadow', as your buddy Don Johnson would like to say. You have much to answer for and you are lucky I am your conscience which reminds you of this deception, because it remains unresolved, and burns in your mind as such.

Now don't go getting all pissy about how I "don't like seeing things discussed". YOU are one of the biggest hypocrites who crowed as you spearheaded campaign after campaign to have my websites deleted and the speech of those who asked tough questions censored.

Yet, it is YOU who remains silent on a major hoax on this website which started the whole ridiculous "barium in chemtrails" thing which still holds many under it's spell.
It is YOU WHO PARTICIPATES IN THE COVERUP

And dont even try and deny it, woman, because you know that what I say is true!

As far as your contention that I slander people, well, we know that such an allegation requires proof that what I say is false, yet no suit against me has ever been undertaken, even after dozens of threats to do so. Plainly, YOU and your people KNOW that you have no proof, and that what I say isn't false at all, but rather is the whole truth. That is why you are doing your best to deflect attention away from your involvement with this "Chemtrails Over America" hoax in which your cohorts claimed to be CIA and NSA trained and associated:
http://home1.gte.net/quakker/documents/chemtrails_over_america.htm#Investigators

You try and pretend that I am making a federal case out of a situation that is ancient history. A great deal of information has become available over the last five years, yet you try to cover up the fact that you were the editor for this bogus document. I think that's what you don't like to see being discussed in public venues.[/b]

jayreynolds

02-28-2005, 05:07 AM

And passivity of course is an energetic principle of judo.

Don't look now, but being 'pathetic' is not a point of pride:
http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=pathetic

Insurrectionchemistry

02-28-2005, 05:48 AM

It appears Simon Stuart is telling more faked up stories of Jesus.

Jesus was not the loyal Jew, he was a Jewish reformer, who took up many great differences with the Phariss and the Torah. Jesus was against things like the temple being used for money changing, etc. Jesus tried to make himself the way, and totally challenged the Pharisee and Torah version of god.

Jesus God was loving and respecting of natural orders, and the Jewish version was feared and vengeful. They were direct opposites of one another.

Jesus may also have taken up the ways of the Essene, and these folks tended to be vegetarian.

Jesus was so opposed to the Pharisee/Torah version of things that his Revelations predicts the end of this Jewish version of things and then Jesus' vendication for going against it.

Jesus rejected the Jewish version of things and basically established what would become Christianity, which for a long long time tossed out the Jewish version of things. One of the biggest problems of today is the push to merge Judeo with Christian----when the two are juxtiposed.

This push started with the Holocaust issues against the Catholic Church, who up until that time rejected the Jewish versions of things. But when the economic power of the Jews conflicted with the money earnings of the Catholics, one gave in.

Judeo-Christian is not consistent with what Jesus was presenting. The Old Testament and the New Testament are direct opposite belief systems, each based on a different persona of god.

jayreynolds

02-28-2005, 06:06 AM

It appears Simon Stuart the telling more faked up stories of Jesus.

Jesus was not the loyal Jew, he was a Jewish reformer, who took up many great differences with the Phariss and the Torah. Jesus was against things like the temple being used for money changing, etc. Jesus tried to make himself the way, and totally challenged the Pharisee and Torah version of god.

Jesus may also have taken up the ways of the Essene, and these folks tended to be vegetarian.

Jesus was so opposed to the Pharisee/Torah version of things that his Revelations predicts the end of this Jewish version of things and then Jesus' vendications for going against it.

Look, Jimbo. You are the pro at telling faked up stories. Jesus could have jst multiplied the bread, yet, as Stuart pointed out, he also multiplied fish. No story, just fact. YOU present no evidence that Jesus was vegetarian, yet there IS evidence to the contrary.

As well, Josephus reports that the Essenes were friends of Herods. Indeed, Josephus even reported that the Essenes had told HEROD, as a child, that it would be HE that would become "King of the Jews". When Jesus was brought before him, Herod mocked him and sent him back to Pilate knowing what would happen.

Come on, jImbo, it's bad enough perverting science with your crap, don't try and pervert Christianity. God is not mocked.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-28-2005, 06:13 AM

Interesting observations:

It would appear Halva's early projections that the Reynolds Mafia would come to turn on persons like BC, as she became more knowledgeable. And as the right questions get addressed, and the truth begins to rise up, the Reynold's gang is going after BC.

This always seem to happen with persons that wise up and reject the misinformation stream from the Mafia games.

As for what is free speech and what is not: In the case of threats of violence this is not a protected free speech, as it is a crime.

Similarly, when persons conspire to obscure the truth of harmfull matters such as chemtrails, the man-made acid rain, the man-made ozone depletion, and the man-made global warming criteria------then such matters should be no more a free speech protection than any other crime. In the latter case, the issue appears to be if free speech is protection for racketeering. And the answer is---that it is not.

halva

02-28-2005, 06:50 AM

letxa2000

02-28-2005, 09:51 AM

Halva: By the way, I am not 'kicked off' CTC. I just don't post there much.

I wasn't even replying to you. I have no idea whether you were kicked off CTC or not. My reply was in response to BoomerChick.

Freedom of association bestows on free citizens powers of discretion and freedom to override rules.

The freedom to override rules setup by the very people that are overriding them? Sure, they have the freedom to do so. But they look like hypocrites in the process.

Insurrectionchemistry

02-28-2005, 03:24 PM

The NFx injection pathway is just like these other pathways shown here. Oak Ridge and the crooked US Govt. suppresses the NFx pathway being drawn on public access problem maps:

Boomer Chick

02-28-2005, 04:25 PM

Yes. As a devout Jew, he also ate the Passover, which usually involved roast lamb, and he also took part in all the other Jewish feasts and festivals, many of which involved ceremonial sacrifice, cooking, and eating of various animals. As a devout Jew, Jesus could most certainly NOT have been a vegitarian! Even to suggest it is absurd.

Yes, I didn't want to proclaim that I knew the dietary ingredients of passover, because I had forgotten, but I did know for sure that he consumed fish. Thank you for the additions and your knowledge, Stu!

BC ;)

Boomer Chick

02-28-2005, 04:44 PM

You see, this is the standard Raynolds trick. Anything to distract, make you anxious and apply your energy in a time-wasting manner. .

We have moved on here far beyond CTC, and it would be good if every non-debunker here could appreciate that.

These threads are aristocratic by comparison with CTC, despite the presence here of the debunkers.

Halva,

Interesting observations, Halva. It seems regarding their sudden turn on me, that something is bothering them beyond the usual. Could it be that as a group, we're getting closer to some truths? I would say that due to the presence of debunkers, when they're focused on the subject and not the poster his/her self, they tend to actually motivate me and often I've learned quite a bit from them in terms of science and their offered links. I actually did admire Renolds and that part of him I do still, and that part of Stuart that is dedicated to truth, I also admire. I wouldn't call it always as devisive and time-wasting as you have, but then again, I have only begun to experience a personal kind of harrassment, here. But concentrating on that and taking the time to respond to every ego and every little "sandbox" like post, IS a distraction and seemingly a form of game-playing that involves control.

Do you think Yaak owns a bulldog? They say animal owners resemble their pets!!! LOL!

BC :p

Boomer Chick

02-28-2005, 04:54 PM

Boomer Chick

02-28-2005, 04:59 PM

Thank you for responding.[TO STU] I was wondering about his [Dr. Ferraro]credibility. It seemed important to me at the time.

I knew the name; I just didn't realize how deeply involved he was/is. I had never seen him given so much credit before. I guess I didn't read the right material.

I have become highly suspicious of almost everything I see on the Internet; just too many hoaxters and tricksters out there.

Gee! How gentlemanly and well-mannered! And so highly suspicious of scientific papers listed in government sites and universities! Must be soooooooooo disconcerting!

ROFLMBO!!!!

BC :p

jayreynolds

02-28-2005, 05:34 PM

If you liked JayJay Jetplane, you'll surely get a kick from Amaroliman!
=> http://www.stormpages.com/amaroliman

foot_soldier

02-28-2005, 06:41 PM

Re: Post # 6833 by insurrectionchemistry:

That was a very interesting and instructive schematic you inserted there. What has happened to it?

Boomer Chick

02-28-2005, 06:50 PM

Sorry, it is useless to try explaining this sort of complex issues to one who isn't ready to speakm the language.

And to think I thought you were dedicated to the truth. Oh well, we all make mistakes.

Guess I won't be expecting scientific facts from you, nor refutation of scientific facts represented by scientists, nor agreement with them, and especially not sharing their papers which would be more explanatory than mere abstracts.

Just what is your purpose for being here, Jay? May I ask with all due respect, because there is indeed a part of me that respects a part of you -- that cannot be denied. But you're simply pulling this Boomer-Chick-is-dumb card -- IS JUST TOO OBVIOUSLY ..................... LOW. So, now that I post reputable scientists like Ferraro et al, ask serious questions, suddenly the low sound or is it the low spark of high heeled boys comes into play here? Why is that?

You bragged about your search engines to me on another thread and now you're refusing to share them with me. Fine. I'll find them myself.

About CTC for all who want to know: Yes, Letxa, I was kicked off because of the swampgas-Mech connection and Mech's totalitarian view of the board. He didn't want to ban Letxa for the reason I gave previously, even though we took a vote of the members and it was overwhelmingly in favor of getting rid of him. And ultimately it was Thermit who then decided, not Mech. And that through Mech into a tantrum mode, some of you may well know. And, I may repeat, that it was not because of Letxa's flaming, for indeed he was an almost perfect gentleman, but it was his outright and total denial of the possibility of chemtrails and disrespect of everyone on our board who were dedicated to gathering information that caused his demise. I gave you the situation. After Letxa was banned, I posted a "bye bye Letxa" with a smiley and Mech was all over me with his little red anger icons and e-mailed me privately with swear words and then I made a genuine mistake when copying a PM to the board ----I forgot to erase their first names. OOOPS! Mech jumped all over the opportunity and then kicked me off. He would not allow me back on, even with my case being stated as unfair through JBE's forwarding my letters. It was not fair and everyone knew it. Some people quit because of it, JBE was one and then another strong guy (a liberal) soon left. I was not invited to attend THIS board, except from Halva who posted a general invitation way back when he started posting here. I also mainly posted on the non-chemtrail part of CTC. I read often on the chemtrail parts and kept up on the postings of relevant science.

As I stated here when I first joined, I value the freedom to research and investigate any theory, and appreciate all intellectual arguments and scientific facts related to obtaining information. And in that process we will all benefit.

Even if there are some who believe without the proper amount of research or the attending to scientific data, what harm does it do?

So, I don't "believe" in anything -- instead I look for facts to make a discerned decision or supported viewpoint. I have to have the facts. This is why I respect Jay when he's in his fact mode. The people mode that often distracts is just that -- a distraction and now and then we all succumb. Because I respected the formation of a board to investigate the possibility of chemtrails (CTC) and their freedom to do so without harrassment, I found Letxa's attitude to be harrassment when he approached a student wanting to research the subject and rather than offer his own links to contrary information decided to down the whole subject, criticize his/her teacher, and totally discredit the IQ of all the members. That was not right and was not respecting freedom of inquiry and freedom of research, not to mention a total disregard for others by labelling them --- in other words: "wackos" "conspiracy theorists" and just plain stupid. It was not flaming, of course, but it was worse than flaming. His words conveyed his attitude perfectly and the attitude was one of total disrespect and disregard for people and for the freedom of inquiry and research. Period.

No, I will not quit this board just because of hollow name-calling because this board is not formed of individuals whose soul purpose is to investigate together something they all agree is worth investigating. This board is not owned and operated by a chemtrail investigator, either. This board is an open forum for those who want to investigate anything they so desire.

So why are you here, Jay? Yaak? Stuart? Just curious. When you offer your intellects in service of truth, I respect you. When you lower yourselves to personal attacks based on assumptions and motivated by who knows what..... you lower yourselves and no-one else. When you debate a legitimate issue, I respect it.

Now let's get back on track and debate climate change or weather manipulation or HAARP and what it does or doesn't do. OK?

This is me: wife, mother, former teacher, activist citizen --- my family at a pizza parlor : son and girlfriend, dh, me, daughter-in-law, son

ps: I don't dye my hair. No need to comment.

BC

Boomer Chick

02-28-2005, 06:54 PM

halva

02-28-2005, 08:12 PM

Halva,

Interesting observations, Halva. It seems regarding their sudden turn on me, that something is bothering them beyond the usual. Could it be that as a group, we're getting closer to some truths? I would say that due to the presence of debunkers, when they're focused on the subject and not the poster his/her self, they tend to actually motivate me and often I've learned quite a bit from them in terms of science and their offered links. I actually did admire Renolds and that part of him I do still, and that part of Stuart that is dedicated to truth, I also admire. I wouldn't call it always as devisive and time-wasting as you have, but then again, I have only begun to experience a personal kind of harrassment, here. But concentrating on that and taking the time to respond to every ego and every little "sandbox" like post, IS a distraction and seemingly a form of game-playing that involves control.

Do you think Yaak owns a bulldog? They say animal owners resemble their pets!!! LOL!

BC :p

BC, as soon as you remove your chador you become unacceptable to all these creeps.

I am amazed at the proportion of their crud you are able, and motivated, to assimilate and respond to.

stuart_allsop

02-28-2005, 08:23 PM

Jesus was not the loyal Jew, he was a Jewish reformer, who took up many great differences with the Phariss and the Torah.What do you mean by "Phariss"? And which version of Torah are you referring to? There is a HUGE difference between the various definitions and versions of Torah, so you'll need to be much more specific that that! You can't just throw around such an immensely broad term without defining it! I guess you mean Tanach, but you might also mean Mishna, or just Humash, but I'm assuming yuo don't mean Midrash, as that would make no sense.

I'm wondering: if Jesus was a reformer, as you claim, then how come he consistently refused to reform, even when urged to do so by his followers?

I'm also wondering: If Jesus was so dead-set against the Torah as you claim he is, then why did he quote from it so extensively? And if the Torah was so terribly wrong, how come it predicts Jesus and his life so very accurately, down to the tiniest detail? You have some major contradictions here between what you claim and what is evident from full contextual study of the Bible.

Also, I challenge you to back up your claim by pointing to verses from ther New Testament, in context, where Jesus clearly and unequivocally says that Torah has it backwards, is wrong, and where he reverese it, setting a totally opposed new precedent. I can show you many places where he BUILDS on the Torah, adding ADDITIONAL material, making some rules tougher than they were previously, relaxing other a bit, but there are absolutely zero places where he reverese a Torah principle.

Jesus was against things like the temple being used for money changing, etc. Of course he was! Because God himself was against it! God had never planned the temple courtyard for that purpose, and it was being defiled. In fact, Jesus was UPHOLDING the Torah here, since the Torah made it abundantly clear that the outer court was Holy, and not to be used for such purposes. So in direct contradiction to your claims, the specific case you mention undeniably demonstrates that Jesus AGREED with the Torah, so much so that he personally and very physically enforced the Torah by kicking out the trash from the outer court.

The example you chose does not support your argument: It refutes it.

Jesus tried to make himself the way, and totally challenged the Pharisee and Torah version of god.No he did not: He corrected several of the mistakes that the Pharisees were making in keeping to the LETTER of the Torah law, but not the SPIRIT of the Torah as a whole. That was their major problem: They wanted to force others to dot every "I" and cross every "T", and forgot all about the humanity, compassion, mercy, and caring. Jesus took them to task for that, big time. He made it very clear that they were doing the right thing by sticking to the Torah, but that they needed to add something else to that: love, and to stop teaching distorions of the Torah. AT NO POINT does Jesus EVER contradict the Torah.

Jesus God was loving and respecting of natural orders, and the Jewish version was feared and vengeful. They were direct opposites of one another.Right. That was the point: the Pharisees had distorted the entire Tanach, twisting it to give themselves power, and Jesus made it his task to set them straight, forcing them to recognize what a mess they had made of it. Which is why they conspired to kill him. Which is, of course, just what Jesus wanted them to do. In short, the Jewish leaders had so much distorted the Tanach (Torah) that Jesus had to spend a lot of time setting them straight, and he did so by scathingly ridiculing them in public, USING THE TORAH to show them up for the tiwsted fools they were. Jesus did NOT contradict the Torah: he enforced it.

Jesus may also have taken up the ways of the Essene, and these folks tended to be vegetarian.No, Jesus was a Nazarene, and therefore not an Essene. The Essene philosophy, since it was basically Jewish, had many things in common with what Jesus taught, but that does not mean that Jesus borrowed from Essene teachings, or was inclined that way. It just means that much of the Essen teachings were still undistorted, and still followed the Torah (Tanach), which is what Jesus taught. Some parts did not conform, of course, and you'll find that Jesus NEVER espoused any of those parts, and on the contrary, he refuted them rather thoroughly.

Jesus was so opposed to the Pharisee/Torah version of things...No, the two are not equivalent: The Pharisees were way off from correct teaching of the Torah (Tanach). Jesus was opposed to the Pharisees, certainly, but not to the Torah. He was opposed to the Pharisses only because they presented a distorted version of the Torah that wasn't even close to what the Torah really teaches.

... that his Revelations predicts the end of this Jewish version of things and then Jesus' vendication for going against it.Nope. Jesus did not write the book of Revelations: John did, while imprisoned on the Isle of Patmos, around 60 years after Jesus died. It's hard to see how Jesus could write Revelations after he was already dead.

Jesus rejected the Jewish version of thingsNo he didn't. He rejected the distorted Jewish version of the Torah, and urged everyone to keep to it even more strictly than they had before. He even said, in as many words, that his purpose was not to replace or reject the Torah, but rather to fulfill it!

...and basically established what would become Christianity, which for a long long time tossed out the Jewish version of things.No, Christianity has NEVER tossed out the "Jewish version of things"! That's a rather absurd statement! Christianity is FOUNDED on the Jewish version of things, and builds on it, in a NEW way that was only possible after Jesus had come and gone. Until that time, the Torah was the ONLY way. After that time, the ONLY way became the Torah plus Jesus. Jesus without the Torah is meaningless. The Orah without Jesus is meaningless. They do not contradict each other: They COMPLEMENT each other.

One of the biggest problems of today is the push to merge Judeo with Christian----when the two are juxtiposed.No, they are one and the same, except that Judaism is incomplete, since it does not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

This push started with the Holocaust issues against the Catholic Church, who up until that time rejected the Jewish versions of things.Huh? What exactly do you mean by "Holocaust issues against the Catholic Church"? You are grossly misusing the term "holocaust" there. You don't ISSUE a holocaust: You start one. Saying that you "issue" a holocaust is kind of like saying that you "issue" a camp fire to warm your coffee on!

Judeo-Christian is not consistent with what Jesus was presenting.Yes it is. Perfectly consistent. Jesus corrected the gross distortions introduced by the Pharisees, placing Judaism once again in harmony with the Torah, and extending it to add himself as the final step.

The Old Testament and the New Testament are direct opposite belief systems, each based on a different persona of god.No, they thoroughly compliment each other in a really amazing way, with teh New Testament neatly completing and fulfilling everything predicted in the Old Testament, and the Old Testament laying the groundwork and foundations which Jesus built on and completed with his own life, forming one whole, coherent, complete picture.

It's really amazing how this works out so perfectly, with all the deatils dovetailing together so neatly and seamlessly, especially aconsidering that the Bible was written in three languages by about 40 people over a period of some 1,600 years! When you study the Bible in depth, you become more and more amazed at just how fantastically the Old Teatament and New Testament fit together into one cohrenet whole, even down to the finest details.

halva

02-28-2005, 08:31 PM

Boomer Chick

02-28-2005, 09:17 PM

BC, as soon as you remove your chador you become unacceptable to all these creeps.

I am amazed at the proportion of their crud you are able, and motivated, to assimilate and respond to.

Sorry, Halva, I don't know the word, chador so if I removed it I wouldn't know what I'm removing! Did you typo here, or is this a Greek word I'm not familiar with?

I guess the overall big picture here is that I can weed out their offered truths from their factless diatribes. Not everything is black and white. As soon as one succumbs to black and white thinking about anyone or anything one is hooked into a blind battle of sorts. Think about it. If you know another human being, intimately, is that human being always right, always wrong, always lying, always telling the truth, always anything???? If one remains objective and centered in one's being only watchful for truth nuggets and able to see the full spectrum of human behavior, including in oneself, the truth comes more easily and is more identifiable. One can set one's intention on the truth and not on other extraneous incoming data. When one is stuck in a certain mindset and view, as in black and white thinking, one cannot move from that position very easily and is rendered blind on the finer points or even obvious ones. Therefore, it is in this aspect of spirituality, if you will, that will free your mind to see more clearly and more wholly the human beings surrounding you, either in cyber space or at your table at the cafe or in a meeting. Spiritual growth affords us the centeredness, the calmness, and inflabability to become open to the truth and selective as to what one reacts to. To be solely reactionary is to allow the object of reaction -- too much power -- as well as sink into one's ego for that moment -- fanatical judgmentalism. One must be dedicated to the truth, no matter what it brings and allow the emotional areas, most certainly spawned of the ego in the negative realms, to remain simmering on the back burner, as one colloquially says here.

Does this make sense to you? As well, no one but God or your God should ever have total power of the word of truth. You can respect others, but to give them sole power of holding the truth for you, is never a wise proposition. You and your spiritual self with the intent to discern, will then develop the ability to discern over time. And of course the mind is involved, but only when the ego steps out of the way is it empowered to see and think clearly..

About the U.S. ? Well, politics is a part of the environmental situation here. As I told FS, our best bet is to get more Democrats in office and get a Dem elected in '08. Our various states and environmental organizations do a fine job with what we have here. And need I go over the state of the state with you? You know very well the corporate/gov. situation here, so please don't panic over there in sunny Greece, OK? We're all doing our best here and of course there are secret DOD ops and of course the oil/energy/pharm/banking corporations all play their stinking parts here and yes, it's becoming uncomfortably fascist and freaky! So PLEASE quit your whining from over there and help us by contributing some information. The politics is known -- it's difficult to navigate and lobbiests fight lobbiests and its a crap system. We know that.

Now what about chemtrails? Have you found any facts on it? What about HAARP? Have you researched anything about it lately? Don't you think arming yourself with facts will get you further in your pursuit of your own credibility in order to present them to others?

As far as climate change, the debate, even between scientists is still raging, however the greenhouse gas situation is recognized with more scientists than the opposing side. Kyoto is just a tiny step in the right direction, but nature is probably and ultimately the final word on it all.
We are the biggest contributer of greenhouse gases in the world! We know that, but try to control this administration with both houses of Congress sycophantically following the president and his listening to his sycophant scientists and his energy cadre -- and you get no movement. But many are going around the Feds with state mandates and private dedications to Kyoto and more, as well as businesses selling their mitigation mechanisms to industry. I know we're slow, but with the administration the way it is -- what do you expect? I posted links to help you see that more is being done that what meets your eye. And yet I know it's sad to view us from over there.

PLEASE stop your whining and questions of a political nature. Can't you imagine how frustrated we are?

BC :rolleyes:

Boomer Chick

02-28-2005, 09:41 PM

http://greenspin.blogspot.com/2005_02_27_greenspin_archive.html#1109505320349044 17

Sunday, February 27, 2005New study records the natural variability of climate over very short periods of time.....

I should like to commend to readers the following seminal paper on climate change, which has just appeared in a most prestigious scientific journal. This, I think, once and for all, establishes the inherent natural variability of climate, and it exposes any oxymora of 'climate stability', even over the shortest of time-scales:

Coniglio Kaninchen, Jr 2005. "Weather and faunistic adaptation during the 'Forest Period' in southern England: a textual analysis of sudden short-term climate change." Journal of Deconstructed and Hybrid Climates, Vol. 27(1), 2005, pp. 234-57.

Abstract: the much-studied 'Forest Period' (Fp) persisted in southern England for only the briefest of geological time, being conservatively-dated to between October 14th, 1926 and October 11th, 1928, although some scholars argue that 'Forest' remnants may have survived on, and around, tumuli, or small mounds [see: Margot Mythenmaker, 1958. "The utopia of 'enchanted places' revisited." The Panenic Review, Vol. 56(2), [1958] 1959, pp. 3-9].

In this new study, Kaninchen analyses the changes in weather and forest fauna that were recorded for the so-called 'Forest Period' (Fp) in the extant 'Annals' of Winnie Ille Pu (forthwith abbreviated to: WiP). Even though these 'Annals' clearly post-date the 'Forest Period' by some years, it is argued that they are based on older vernacular sources and that they are remarkably accurate with respect to the broader environmental patterns that characterised the 'Forest Period'.

Despite the undoubted geological brevity of the 'Forest Period', Kaninchen postulates that it is possible to recognise no fewer than seven (7) different climatic phases (Phases FpI to FpVII) for the 'Forest Period' (Fp):

(a) Phase FpI: a cool-temperate phase, when the forest was characterised by bears, small pigs (Porcellus spp.), rabbits (Leporus spp.), and donkeys, and, possibly, by the now extinct, Vusillus spp. During this phase, the weather was breezy and balmy in summer, but noted for light snow falls during the winter months, when Vusillus hunting was a major occupation;

(b) Phase FpII: a 'global warming' phase, in which a meliphagous elephant species, (Heffalumpus anglicus C. Robin, 1926), was recorded for the first time in 'The Forest'. This extinct animal has captured the imagination of many later palaeontologists. The animal would take honey by its trunk, and it was hunted by means of large elephant traps, or pits, baited with honey;

(c) Phase FpIII: the FpII warming phase gave way to a much drier phase, associated with the arrival in 'The Forest' of a distinctive speces of kangaroo (Canga maternalis A. Lenardo, 1958). As the WiP annals record, the precise origins of this kangaroo species are somewhat in doubt: "Nemo undenam orti essent scire videbatur, sed nunc in silva erant: Canga ac Ru ille parvulus." (WiP VII, l. 1-2). It appears that the advent of this rather dominant species caused much disturbance among the indigenous fauna;

(d) Phase FpIV: the dry phase, FpIII, ended in dramatic circumstances, with the arrival of intense storms and considerable floods (WiP IX, l. 1: "Pluebat et pluebat et pluebat."). The lesser fauna was ecologically stressed during this phase that was referred to as: "tempus terribilis inundationis maximo". Nevertheless, some bird species came into their own, including a large owl, Bubonis pomposus (C. Robin) A. Lenardo, 1958, which would perch for hours on larger branches above the rising flood waters;

(e) Phase FpV: the phase of storms and floods, however, soon gave way to a mini-Ice Age, usually termed the 'Tiddely Ice Age' (TpIA). This was characterised by extremely heavy snow fall. Even animals like the hardy donkey (Eeyorensis paludosus C. Robin, 1926) became ecologically stressed during this phase of bitter cold, although its predilection for eating flattened thistles (Cirsium spp. and Carduus spp.) gave it a competitive advantage;

(f) Phase FpVI: the cold, however, with remarkable swiftness (a sudden temperature rise estimated to be around 26 degrees Celsius), gave way to a semi-tropical climate which saw the advent into 'The Forest' of savanna-woodland animals, such as a highly-active species of tiger (Panthera tiggerensis I. Bounce, 1930). Some scholars have even argued that this phase also witnessed the return of a rare Heffalumpus sp.;

(g) Phase FpVII: during the terminal phase, there was a reversal to milder, cooler, Atlantic conditions, as the Northerly Jet Stream buckled over 'The Forest'. This gave rise to extremely strong winds and 'sting jets', which destroyed most of the trees, bringing the 'Forest Period' to an end, leaving only "sex pini" and relicts of the "Silva C. Jugerum". Bird taxa, including Bubonis pomposus, were severely affected during this final phase.

Kaninchen concludes that this record of dramatic natural climate change during so short a geological period puts current ideas of 'global warming' into clear perspective, and that, even were we able to manage any human component of such change, we would still be subject to dramatic lurches in climate of the type described for the 'Forest Period'. He further observes that the so-called 'Hockey Stick' is an artefact of current obsessions with 'presentism' and that detailed historical studies are vital for any understanding of both long-term and short-term climate change.

Finally, Kaninchen stresses the high levels of faunal adaptivity exhibited during the rapid climate changes of the 'Forest Period', and he notes that we have a tendency to exaggerate the inability of nature to adapt to such changes.

Philip, well that really 'pooh-poohs' the gloomsters, who are, of course, the true 'climate-change deniers'. So much for La Brea, then [see also Stotty's 'Los Angeles' Tar Pits tell the tale of environmental change']. Afternoon tea - and a game of pooh-sticks, everyone?
Posted by: Philip / 11:48 AM / E-mail this post to a friend:

________________________________________

I have to post all sides of all arguments! No need to ignore this one!

BC ;)

halva

02-28-2005, 11:30 PM

Sorry, Halva, I don't know the word, chador so if I removed it I wouldn't know what I'm removing! Did you typo here, or is this a Greek word I'm not familiar with?

The chador is the heavy veil worn by Muslim women in countries such as Saudi Arabia.

About the U.S. ? Well, politics is a part of the environmental situation here. As I told FS, our best bet is to get more Democrats in office and get a Dem elected in '08.

Didn't you get a Dem elected in '04?

And then he went and announced that he had lost.

How are you going to prevent the same thing happening again for a third time?

The computerisation and privatisation of the elections, effectively removing them from public scrutiny and forcing (the most progressive!!!) Democrats to channel their energies into bringing them back into scrutiny rather than developing alternative policies, could be used to strengthen the credentials of the social forum system as an alternative to the existing multiparty system.

Ruppert and Catherine Austin Fitts, both of whom you like, do not favour investing any hopes in the Democrats, or in the now utterly discredited pseudo-election process.

PLEASE quit your whining from over there and help us by contributing some information.

Jim Phelps was right in his dismissive remarks about cut and pasting. I don't want to discourage you and Footsoldier from doing it, but there is already much more information being posted here than I (or even you) can absorb. Wouldn't you prefer me to read more of what you post rather than posting myself?

Now what about chemtrails? Have you found any facts on it?

A new article on chemtrails has just come out from Gabriel Stetter. It's in German, and not on-line, as far as I know.

What about HAARP? Have you researched anything about it lately? Don't you think arming yourself with facts will get you further in your pursuit of your own credibility in order to present them to others?

Other people in Greece are finding information on HAARP.

As for chemtrails/geoengineering I already know much more than almost all the people I am dealing with in the real world, so learning even more, although a priority, is not number one priority. I don't gain credibility in the first instance from being more knowledgeable but from finding the way to get people's political prejudices working with me rather than against me.

jayreynolds

03-01-2005, 03:50 AM

One question to ask is: how is the whole 'chemtrails' problematic to find its place in the thematics of accepted, non-stigmatised, off-internet political debate and activity?

Is the answer that we have to stop casting politicians in the role of the people who have to solve the problem and take on that role ourselves?

It may be easier for that to happen in Europe because we are building new institutional structures here.

How can it be done in the US?

Lokk, Wayne, if you found some proof, and spoke the truth, there would be no debate. Since you haven't done either, there will be none. All that is left are frustrating dead-end lies and hoaxes.
This is why ex-chemmies outnumber confirmed cases 10,000 to 1. What are left are the dumb dregs, and thse with hidden agendas. Real people have moved on.

jayreynolds

03-01-2005, 03:57 AM

You know very well the corporate/gov. situation here, so please don't panic over there in sunny Greece, OK? :

perhaps you need to research a little about Greece's environment. Lucky they are a flyspeck country, because their total sulfur emissions are greater than those of Germany or France. Let THAT sink in a minute and realize the filth Wayne's sunny little island produces as he sits smoking at the cafe.

halva

03-01-2005, 04:09 AM

perhaps you need to research a little about Greece's environment. Lucky they are a flyspeck country, because their total sulfur emissions are greater than those of Germany or France. Let THAT sink in a minute and realize the filth Wayne's sunny little island produces as he sits smoking at the cafe.

All of this is completely true, and we brought it to the attention of the public both at the OI.KI.A. demonstration of February 12th
http://www.oi-ki-a.gr/february12.htm

and the ATTAC-Hellas public meeting of February 16th.

halva

03-01-2005, 04:12 AM

Look, Wayne, if you found some proof, and spoke the truth, there would be no debate. Since you haven't done either, there will be none. All that is left are frustrating dead-end lies and hoaxes.
This is why ex-chemmies outnumber confirmed cases 10,000 to 1. What are left are the dumb dregs, and those with hidden agendas. Real people have moved on.

Yes, finally those with the hidden agendas will bring the tens of thousands of ex-chemmies out of retirement.

How many of those ex-chemmies will remember YOU, I wonder?

That will be Judgement Day for Raynolds.

The co-optation of ecologists and climate scientists into the 'chemtrails' hushup is going to be as much of a boomerang as the co-optation of Greens and Eurocommies into NATO's smashing of the Balkans.

jayreynolds

03-01-2005, 07:56 AM

Yes, finally those with the hidden agendas will bring the tens of thousands of ex-chemmies out of retirement.

How many of those ex-chemmies will remember YOU, I wonder?

That will be Judgement Day for Raynolds.

The co-optation of ecologists and climate scientists into the 'chemtrails' hushup is going to be as much of a boomerang as the co-optation of Greens and Eurocommies into NATO's smashing of the Balkans.

Wayne, the big "chemtrails" hushup here at ariannas is coming from your people regarding the origin of the barium hoax. Despite an admission that 'footsoldier' was personally involved with the group claiming to be CIA and NSA trainedand associated, which first promoted the barium hoax, you, BC. Jim Phelps, and others continue to stonewall about this monstrosity.

Nevertheless, one day 'footsoldier' will have to come out and admit the who, what, when and why this whole sordid episode took place. For my part, despite my confidence that the truth will eventually be told, I will cntinue hammering away until your people come clean. I do this because it is true that evil can only triumph if good men do nothing. If you want to fight against me, bring it on. I've NEVER tried to shut you up, even though you and your people want to do that to me.

Boomer Chick

03-01-2005, 10:05 AM

The chador is the heavy veil worn by Muslim women in countries such as Saudi Arabia.

A gender commentary? Nice. So now I'm an oppressed woman who follows the patriarchal society blindly?

Get a grip!

Didn't you get a Dem elected in '04?

And then he went and announced that he had lost.

How are you going to prevent the same thing happening again for a third time?

We're working on that, too! http://bradblog.com/

What makes you think a little guy in Greece knows more and is more actively pursuing justice in our country than those of us here? Get off your high Trojan horse, please!

The computerisation and privatisation of the elections, effectively removing them from public scrutiny and forcing (the most progressive!!!) Democrats to channel their energies into bringing them back into scrutiny rather than developing alternative policies, could be used to strengthen the credentials of the social forum system as an alternative to the existing multiparty system.

Ruppert and Catherine Austin Fitts, both of whom you like, do not favour investing any hopes in the Democrats, or in the now utterly discredited pseudo-election process.]

Democrats have historically supported environmental legislation of all kinds. Your ignorance is quite amazing. Why don't you do a google search on Democrats and the environment. Ruppert and Fitts see a lot and know the underpinnings of our economic and monetary system, the Federal Reserve and all the dots connecting it, including CIA ops. It's how the gov. has worked regardless of party for decades. In one of Fitt's talks, she asked every person in her 100 person audience if they could push a button and change it now, change the system as it is which supports all the banks, all the retirements, the value of the dollar EVERYTHING -- would you do it? Only one person voted to push the button. Why? Because who in their right mind in any country knowing their way of life, their children's future, their ability to feed and clothe themselves, educate themselves would all GO in an instant by pushing the button?? The system needs to change, the corrupt need to go, but to do it instantly is not possible and would cause such suffering that the act of pushing the button would do more harm than what is actually happening. Truth is rising to the surface, many are becoming informed and aware and time will bring us, through activism and the legal system (if it survives) either a change for the better or a sudden and vicious collapse.

Your controlling mindset even flows into our country's overall political scene. Realize you can't do anything about it. But we can and we're working on it.

Jim Phelps was right in his dismissive remarks about cut and pasting. I don't want to discourage you and Footsoldier from doing it, but there is already much more information being posted here than I (or even you) can absorb. Wouldn't you prefer me to read more of what you post rather than posting myself?]

Cutting and pasting is sharing knowledge. Links can be given, but to support scientific evidence one must include the scientists.... DUH! No, I would appreciate links to supportive, credible, scientific inquiry -- do you think YOU have all the answers? Are so arrogant to believe that people will listen to you without scientific evidence? Please. Don't rattle my truth cage!

A new article on chemtrails has just come out from Gabriel Stetter. It's in German, and not on-line, as far as I know.

When it's translated, that would be good reading.

Other people in Greece are finding information on HAARP.

Fine, no contributions from you, then, on the subject.

As for chemtrails/geoengineering I already know much more than almost all the people I am dealing with in the real world, so learning even more, although a priority, is not number one priority. I don't gain credibility in the first instance from being more knowledgeable but from finding the way to get people's political prejudices working with me rather than against me.

And how do you prove your case to others without scientific backup? In order to persuade other people's perceptions in a political way, you must use the art of rhetorical persuasion, and that includes, but not solely, expert testimony, credible scientific evidence, lab tests that confirm your suppositions that chemtrails are composed of particulates that are dangerous, and your own ability show a dedication to truth and scientific inquiry. If you are an honest person and have contributed to that reputation and use the art of logic and persuasive rhetoric, you may then inlist others to your cause. Otherwise, you spin your wheels and get nowhere!

Understand?

Now quit worrying or is it your narcissistic need to feel in control that I see?

I am realizing the contribution of aviation-produced cirrus cloud production as a contributory factor in global warming. As far as the metallics, I am not convinced that they are being sprayed here or in Europe. Period. Find me evidence to support your claims and I will be not have to be a "believer." The scientific proof will move the subject into the realm of fact.

If you're such an environmental activist, how do you have time to participate in such an inconsequential board? Those who actively work to change things don't sit on boards and argue with others. They're out doing something. I need to join an organization myself and quit wasting my time. But as long as I'm learning something, my time is not wasted.

BC ;)

halva

03-01-2005, 10:18 AM

I've NEVER tried to shut you up, even though you and your people want to do that to me.

As far as I can see you've done little else over the last five years and more other than try to shut people up. Only a few postings ago you were boasting about how well you had succeeded.

Yes, I want to shut you up because, not understanding the code in which you communicate, people take what you say literally and become confused. .

Boomer Chick

03-01-2005, 10:32 AM

jayreynolds

03-01-2005, 10:41 AM

As far as I can see you've done little else over the last five years and more other than try to shut people up. Only a few postings ago you were boasting about how well you had succeeded.

Yes, I want to shut you up because, not understanding the code in which you communicate, people take what you say literally and become confused. .

Wayne, I just went back for four pages and find no occasion where I boasted of shutting you or anyone else up. You won't cite any occasion where I insisted that anyone be silent or silenced.
Both you and BC, among others, have done so, but not me.

I ordinarily write as literally as I can. Your writings are so convoluted and abstruse it's no wonder you have failed to garner any support whatsoever from ordinary posters who happen along here at ariannas, or even Arianna herself. You are quite confused, even to the point where some of your cohorts are wondering for your sanity.

jayreynolds

03-01-2005, 10:55 AM

"A new article on chemtrails has just come out from Gabriel Stetter. It's in German, and not on-line, as far as I know."

When it's translated, that would be good reading. ;)

I'm thinking this latest article promotes Jim Phelp's stuff. Won't THAT be a 'crock', BC?

Boomer Chick

03-01-2005, 10:57 AM

Wayne, I just went back for four pages and find no occasion where I boasted of shutting you or anyone else up. You won't cite any occasion where I insisted that anyone be silent or silenced.
Both you and BC, among others, have done so, but not me.

I ordinarily write as literally as I can. Your writings are so convoluted and abstruse it's no wonder you have failed to garner any support whatsoever from ordinary posters who happen along here at ariannas, or even Arianna herself. You are quite confused, even to the point where some of your cohorts are wondering for your sanity.

Excuse me, Jay. On private boards formed for a purpose, those who refuse to respect that purpose should not be allowed, just like women's clubs that don't allow men, or pilot's clubs that don't allow ship captains. Get it? This is a public domain board, not a private board. You can call it silencing, but I don't. And ultimately, it was Thermit's decision... after a democratic poll.

BC

Boomer Chick

03-01-2005, 10:59 AM

I'm thinking this latest article promotes Jim Phelp's stuff. Won't THAT be a 'crock', BC?

We'll just have to see.

BC ;)

halva

03-01-2005, 01:05 PM

Halva,

http://207.44.245.159/article8171.htm

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=voter+fraud+supression&btnG=Google+Search

Listen to the top link and read as much as you can on the bottom link.... then you might have a clue!

Another link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss//duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=326096

Those who have ears......

BC

BC, if I weren't here Raynolds would already have proven to you that there was no fraud or cheating of any kind by the Republicans in the the 2004 US presidential election and that you are nothing more than a sore loser.

He isn't at the moment challenging you on any of your assertions about your 2004 Presidential elections because he knows that for you and him to start arguing about that would take the pressure off me.

You see, I am useful to you also.

halva

03-01-2005, 01:48 PM

I am realizing the contribution of aviation-produced cirrus cloud production as a contributory factor in global warming. As far as the metallics, I am not convinced that they are being sprayed here or in Europe. Period. Find me evidence to support your claims and I will be not have to be a "believer." The scientific proof will move the subject into the realm of fact.

I admit that I don't know whether what is up there is sulphates or metals or whatever. This is something that we here in Europe have to start investigating, once we have the right structures, which don't rotate entirely proving whether or not some of us are 'conspiracy theorists'.

When we look out from Aigina at night to the sky over Athens it is patently obvious that there are some reflective materials in the sky, reflecting the lights of the city back down on it.

I don't remember seeing anything like that ten years ago.

Boomer Chick

03-01-2005, 01:56 PM

BC, if I weren't here Raynolds would already have proven to you that there was no fraud or cheating of any kind by the Republicans in the the 2004 US presidential election and that you are nothing more than a sore loser.

He isn't at the moment challenging you on any of your assertions about your 2004 Presidential elections because he knows that for you and him to start arguing about that would take the pressure off me.

You see, I am useful to you also.

No one, let alone Reynolds, is capable of convincing me against knowledge I already possess.

When I first joined here I allowed everyone to be where they are politcally and unified us on the subjects at hand. If you want to talk about politics here in America, start a thread on it on the general forum or here, but don't expect me to join in with that area of discussion on these climate, geo-engineering, weather manipulation, and HAARP related threads. It's a waste of time to bring in the whole gamut of opposing views. This is what focus is all about.

You need to focus, join a political board, or start your own thread on politics-- Euro-American or whatever. OK? Environmental politics regarding cover-ups directly related to government operations in your country and ours could be discussed, but not unless it it directly relevant, OK?
And it would be helpful if you could undergird your commentary with reputable sources as well.

FS and I have started compiling, on another thread (INHOFE) what is going on with our Senate Committee regarding the most recent legislation on the Clean Air Act -- so if you're curious you can read over there.

I never said I didn't need you, but you need to attempt to maintain objectivity and focused contributive work. OK? Please stay.

BC :rolleyes:

jayreynolds

03-01-2005, 05:03 PM

Excuse me, Jay. On private boards formed for a purpose, those who refuse to respect that purpose should not be allowed, just like women's clubs that don't allow men, or pilot's clubs that don't allow ship captains. Get it? This is a public domain board, not a private board. You can call it silencing, but I don't. And ultimately, it was Thermit's decision... after a democratic poll. BC

Wayne Hall has long called for the moderators to silence me on THIS "public domain" board, you tried to silence Jim Phelps here.

There is no difference, except that you, being an American, should know better. I said it before and I will say it again, such actions are un-American. In case you didn't know the history of chemtrailcentral, things went along fine for over a year, before advocates of banning dissenting opinion came to hold power, and Thermit became uninterested in searching for answers about "chemtrails".

The simple fact is that no hoax can exist without banning dissenting opinion, and that is primarily why Wayne has found no converts to the hoax among Arianna Huffington's membership. He might try to contend that I have tried to shut him up, yet the numbers show that he has always taken more opportunities to post than I have. I have also continually told him he is not free to leave this board until I give him permision to do so.

It is also why, after six years of this hoax, no progress has been made whatsoever and the discussion boards which ban dissent are stagnant wastes of time. Even essential debate among believers is stifled by 'political correctness' and accomodation of farcical baseless claims. Despite all the banning, in fact, less and less progress has been made
by your hoax over the last two years than any one previous year. At the current rate of decline, only a few dozen 'die-hards' will be left very soon, and they tend to increasingly marginalize themselves even more over time.

In 2000, I predicted to Thermit that chemtrailcentral would be all over in five years. He certainly isn't an active member any longer. Considering that after six months only 24 people have now bothered to take their poll about "What are chemtrails for?", I'm pretty well on target.

Insurrectionchemistry

03-01-2005, 05:44 PM

CTC is most always so polite a place to introduce information and share.
It is very different than the liars club that tries to paint false claims here.

Looks like Chemtrails is hotter than ever, as seen in this recent email to mark sky from one of his cliff video recipents:

=======
To: mark sky
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:37 am
Subject: Carnicom video
Hi Mark,

since I cant post...
just wanted to let ya know that someone has managed to get both the Carnicom video and In Plane Site on a local cable channel5 (FOX) out of Watebury Conn the last 3 Sat nites (9-10pm or so). They must serve at least 250000 people! Keep up the good work.

========

The email note above is not from myself in Tennessee, but from someone in New England, and was listed on a CTC thread for the video distribution.

jayreynolds

03-01-2005, 06:11 PM

Boomer Chick

03-01-2005, 06:27 PM

Wayne Hall has long called for the moderators to silence me on THIS "public domain" board, you tried to silence Jim Phelps here.

Excuse me? Phelps was attacking me personally ad infinitum and he learned to control it, didn't he? Flaming, as such, is not allowed even on public domain boards. I have never wanted to suppress his ideas nor his religious or scientific posts.

There is no difference, except that you, being an American, should know better.

I should know better? I don't allow children or high schoolers to disrespect one another in a classroom. I don't allow others to berate me unfairly and personally when the purpose of discussion boards is to discuss. As I said before, freedom of speech only goes so far and you, my friend, from all accounts, have represented America in a far more negative way than I have. But I haven't witnessed that on this board since I joined, so I would not be included in those who would testify to my previous statement. You are persistent, I will say, and often caustic, but big red letters are no biggy and name calling hasn't gotten to the point of outright flaming regarding you, so..... whatever.

I said it before and I will say it again, such actions are un-American.

You'll have to write an essay on that statement before I'll buy it. You can have your opinions, but I don't agree with this one. Besides, if you use the standard for yourself that you're using on me, you would indeed be unAmerican by your own standard as expressed so far.

In case you didn't know the history of chemtrailcentral, things went along fine for over a year, before advocates of banning dissenting opinion came to hold power, and Thermit became uninterested in searching for answers about "chemtrails".

The simple fact is that no hoax can exist without banning dissenting opinion, and that is primarily why Wayne has found no converts to the hoax among Arianna Huffington's membership. He might try to contend that I have tried to shut him up, yet the numbers show that he has always taken more opportunities to post than I have. I have also continually told him he is not free to leave this board until I give him permision to do so.

LOL! He is not free, heh? That's an interesting twist. You have probably pummeled him quite well. And now and then I hear "hypocrite" and "liar" from you, so to sensitive people this might be quite offensive. But Halva keeps coming back for more and so did Phelps. I even found Phelps to be more masochistic than Halva, remember? It was all a chidlish kind of banter from my view, anyway.

It is also why, after six years of this hoax, no progress has been made whatsoever and the discussion boards which ban dissent are stagnant wastes of time. Even essential debate among believers is stifled by 'political correctness' and accomodation of farcical baseless claims. Despite all the banning, in fact, less and less progress has been made
by your hoax over the last two years than any one previous year. At the current rate of decline, only a few dozen 'die-hards' will be left very soon, and they tend to increasingly marginalize themselves even more over time.

It was never "my hoax," dearie. You could say that to Carnicom, but not me. I read and was open to the possibility and defended those who were searching, but the more I searched the more I couldn't find supporting evidence. My efforts turned to politics and 911 and I only joined a chemtrails board (CTC) to learn more. I didn't learn that much more, but I did learn to debate and research 911. Like I said, when boards are constructed for only those who want to research a certain subject and they find that the opposing opinion is harrassing, they have the right, on a private board, to ban those who don't respect. BIB and Wolf Larson still post or were never banned on CTC because they learned how to disagree with respect. And I do admit that swampgs and mech were potty mouths! I saw it and was embarrassed for them. Mojo, also, flamed way too much and he should have been banned long before Letxa.

In 2000, I predicted to Thermit that chemtrailcentral would be all over in five years. He certainly isn't an active member any longer. Considering that after six months only 24 people have now bothered to take their poll about "What are chemtrails for?", I'm pretty well on target.

I hope you're proud of yourself. I wonder if you hadn't been involved at all, what the membership numbers would be? Do you think you had a direct role in the natural progression of peoples' knowledge and awareness? Of course your prediction was right.... there's simply not enough supporting scientific evidence for people to cling to the notion of purposeful spraying. HOWEVER, I give freedom and respect to those who want to continue their investigations and I say ..... fine, go ahead, do what you want! Who does it harm?

If you feel good about bringing opposing information to those who you feel cling to false psuedo-science, than hoooray for you! But as you look back, do you have a clear conscience that you comported yourself in a manner for which your children could be proud? If so, then your work was well done. Ultimately, you are your own judge, not me, not anyone else. I have admired you from what I've seen and even though I've known ABOUT your notorious ways..... but I don't care.

What you could do at this point, is write a book on it. Honestly, I think you have enough material to write a book on the phenomena that took place and the people involved in it. Without committing libel or slander, you could write quite a book based on your debunking abilities, your skeptical view, and the history of the chemtrail phenomena on the internet. Why not? You could list your sources as you go with the source list at the end, have a famous pilot or environmentalist write your preface and you write your forward and introduction and for your aknowledgements, why you could include your Maverick gang and those who helped you, including scientists to whom you wrote, etc. What say you? Great idea? Plenty of people have written books as skeptics of this or that theory -- it would be nothing new as a premise for a book. If you want manuscript form information, I can get it for you.

I agree to disagree with you, Jay. No biggy! I'm not here to defend your Americanism or mine. I know I'm a patriot of sorts and I know you feel you are, too. So, do your thang! I'll do mine ... that's the American way.... and that's freedom.

BC 8)

jayreynolds

03-01-2005, 06:39 PM

just wanted to let ya know that someone has managed to get both the Carnicom video and In Plane Site on a local cable channel5 (FOX) out of Watebury Conn the last 3 Sat nites (9-10pm or so). They must serve at least 250000 people! Keep up the good work.

he-he. somebody is pulling a fast one on 'ol mark.
The only Fox affiliate in Connecticut is channel 61 out of Hartford. Besides, Fox always carries "America's Most Wanted" on the Saturday night 9-10EST slot, not shoddily produced conspiracy theory videos.

Prolly, some hoaxer is having Mark Sky spend all his time copying and sending videos to dead-letter boxes nationwide.
Maybe that is a good way to keep him occupied so he can't hurt himself.
Sound like a good idea to me!
Ha!
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7757&start=45

jayreynolds

03-01-2005, 06:46 PM

What you could do at this point, is write a book on it. Why not? What say you? Great idea?
Well, I'd repeat my previous answer to you, but it seems to go in one ear and out the other.............

Boomer Chick

03-01-2005, 07:02 PM

BC-Just what is your purpose for being here, Jay?

I am here primarily to debunk the chemtrails hoax.
Debunk- expose while ridiculing; especially of pretentious or false claims and ideas
I also am here to amuse myself and exercise my brain. Life down on the farm way back 'o the woods doesn't allow much social interaction, especially durng winter.

BC- So, now that I post reputable scientists like Ferraro et al, ask serious questions, suddenly the low sound or is it the low spark of high heeled boys comes into play here? Why is that?

J-That was Stuart's decision. He gave his reasons.

Fair on the first part. And I asked you to answer the questions I gave to Stuart who declined and you never answered.

BCHe didn't want to ban Letxa for the reason I gave previously, even though we took a vote of the members and it was overwhelmingly in favor of getting rid of him.

J-I don't believe that is an accurate statement regarding the banning. If there was a vote by the membership, I certainly didn't see it. Care to show me?

We voted first on a forum thread. Then the webmasters communicated about it and Thermit THEN made the decision. It was announced as you quoted. The time elements weren't given. And the board the way it is now, has been revamped and changed and I don't know where the archives are for those thread. You are free to search if you want. I don't care if you don't believe me, it's what happened and it's in the past and I reported it as I experienced it, it's all I can do. And no, I don't lie, and yes, I can be forgetful, but not on this.

And the record shows that your suggestion for dealing with people who might debunk was this:

BC-And ultimately it was Thermit who then decided, not Mech. And that through Mech into a tantrum mode, some of you may well know.

J-Not according to 'Mech', who said:

What mech said on the announcement was what he said. It does not disagree with what I discribed as the timeline of the events. Well, as far as what I said, I probably said it in terms of rewriting the rules to not allow any harrassing debunkers. And like I said previously, those were not the BIB and Wolf Larson types.

BC-And, I may repeat, that it was not because of Letxa's flaming, for indeed he was an almost perfect gentleman, but it was his outright and total denial of the possibility of chemtrails and disrespect of everyone on our board who were dedicated to gathering information that caused his demise. I gave you the situation.

I never said it was due to Letxa's flaming. Didn't you read what I said? It was his complete and utter disrespect of the people on the board and their wanting to research. I'm not going to go over it again.

J-I am aware of the situation. You spearheaded the un-american action against Letxa. The whole sordid episode can be viewed here:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000107.html

BC-I was not invited to attend THIS board, except from Halva who posted a general invitation way back when he started posting here.

J- But this is what you said:

Yes, well, privately he'd e-mail me at times, but publicly he only invited me along with everyone else when he first started. Halva was not a big poster over on CTC and I didn't really get to know him at all over there. His invitations were few and far between and my coming here had nothing to do with him. I don't care if you believe this or not, Jay. It's not important. And your "un-american" stuff is laughable. I've done more for America than you've done, Jaybo! Try getting involved in your local politics, be a precinct leader, work on phonebanks, attend your political party meetings, make a speech or two, poll watch, and then tell me that's un-American. You make me laugh! Private internet boards have nothing to do with being American or UnAmerican. What a crock.

BC- As I stated here when I first joined, I value the freedom to research and investigate any theory, and appreciate all intellectual arguments and scientific facts related to obtaining information.

J-No, i have to disagree. The record has shown just how much appreciation you have for argument. It only goes so far as you want it to go, then the hammer and sickle comes out and the call for banning. I'm not blind or stupid. I also have a particularly good memory for what people say. Some have called it remarkable. I'll try to not hold it against you, but it has left a strong impression on me.

The hammer and sickle or rolling pin and pan only come out when someone personally attacks me, not when they intelligently argue points. DUH! You're really getting hilarious, here!

Judging by some of your 'misstatements' above, your comprehension troubles, and some rather wild gyrations in social interactions, I really don't know what to make of you. Are they intentional lies? Are you just forgetful? Or is there really something else involved? Time usually tells more and I'm willing to wait it out.

No hormones this time, heh? Well, your nit-picky judgmentalism based on personal things just doesn't phase me, Jay. If you think I'm forgetful, OOOOOOH, I'm sure as heck going to try to remember better, heh? Your whole stance here is so silly I can't believe I'm responding to you. It's laughable. Oh well, maybe I put you on the defensive with my questioning. Just thought it would be a good mind exercise for you. Well, at least I know I have an audience in you, and that you will TRY to make me tow some JayLine, but frankly, my dear...... I don't give a darn. Hehehehe!

Here's a good one:

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it,"....... Mark Twain.

Well, I can say one thing, you sure up the ante in the drama department! Whooooo WEEEE!

Lovin' the energy! Are we done with this distraction, yet? Hey wait a minute, are you in that cabin with no one to fight with? Geeze, I didn't even think of that. Well, it all makes sense! MuHUWAHAHAHA! SMooch! Let's all dance now.... do cee do and swing your partner round and round, swing her on the floor and throw her on the ground, lift her up and twirl her on your toes, and spin her cross the floor and see how far she goes...... :mrgreen:

BC :D

jayreynolds

03-01-2005, 08:22 PM

Try getting involved in your local politics, be a precinct leader, work on phonebanks, attend your political party meetings, make a speech or two, poll watch, and then tell me that's un-American. BC :D

I've served as election judge and poll watcher many times, hand counted votes, have written and gotten county legislation passed, always campaign door-to-door for elections, letters to-the-editor, grassroots property rights activism, speech to the school board, and served a term as Chairman for my county's Republican Party. This, as a 'furriner' who just got here 12 years ago. In my part of Arkansas, which hasn't elected a Republican for seventy years, even a dog catcher, that sort of stuff get's you disqualified for government jobs and ostracized among many people in 'polite society'. Ya got nuthing on me.

halva

03-01-2005, 08:53 PM

What you could do at this point, is write a book on it. Honestly, I think you have enough material to write a book on the phenomena that took place and the people involved in it. Without committing libel or slander, you could write quite a book based on your debunking abilities, your skeptical view, and the history of the chemtrail phenomena on the internet. Why not? You could list your sources as you go with the source list at the end, have a famous pilot or environmentalist write your preface and you write your forward and introduction and for your aknowledgements, why you could include your Maverick gang and those who helped you, including scientists to whom you wrote, etc. What say you? Great idea? Plenty of people have written books as skeptics of this or that theory -- it would be nothing new as a premise for a book. If you want manuscript form information, I can get it for you.

I agree to disagree with you, Jay. No biggy! I'm not here to defend your Americanism or mine. I know I'm a patriot of sorts and I know you feel you are, too. So, do your thang! I'll do mine ... that's the American way.... and that's freedom.
BC 8)

You do your thing, I'll do mine. That's the American way, and that's freedom.

Perhaps it was possible when there was what Europeans (but perhaps not the 'native Americans') saw as an 'empty continent' to occupy.

In other parts of the world where the story of the rise and fall of peoples and civilisations is more complex, conceptions of 'freedom' are also more nuanced.

The idea of Raynolds writing a book about what he has been doing for the last five-six-seven years touches on a sore point with him. He would like to be big-time asshole like Michael Crichton, who the media talk about. But the mainstream is not interested in shedding too much light on this sordid little story of 'chemmies' and debunkers.

The consequences would be counterproductive.

Anyway, we keep circling around and around the same point. Freedom of speech.

Articles have been posted recently about how the ideal of freedom of speech is misused in giving space to superficially scientific articles that question the reality of anthropogenic global warming. It is beginning to dawn on the political mainstream what the consequences of 'freedom of speech' really are.

They can do nothing about this through utilising their own political system. All they can do is turn up the level of hysteria, as with the BBC 'Global Dimming' video.

But when it comes to hysteria nobody can ever compete with a hardened anti-communist cold-warrior, who has acquired mastery of the hysteria mode through generations of practice.

As I pointed out....only the 'social forum' system contains built-in, reflexive, automatic censorship mechanisms against people like Raynolds. At the moment these censorship mechanisms work too narrowly. They lump into the 'racist' category many people who should perhaps be given more of a hearing. But given the situation we are in, and given that the more sophisticated sectors of the community cannot provide us with the institutions we need to defend ourselves, their advantages outweigh their disadvantages.

The narrowness cannot be invoked by Raynolds as legitimation of anything about himself. He can never be something other than part of the problem.

Raynolds is not going to consent to a 'live and let live' settlement, BC.

Boomer Chick

03-01-2005, 09:09 PM

I've served as election judge and poll watcher many times, hand counted votes, have written and gotten county legislation passed, always campaign door-to-door for elections, letters to-the-editor, grassroots property rights activism, speech to the school board, and served a term as Chairman for my county's Republican Party. This, as a 'furriner' who just got here 12 years ago. In my part of Arkansas, which hasn't elected a Republican for seventy years, even a dog catcher, that sort of stuff get's you disqualified for government jobs and ostracized among many people in 'polite society'. Ya got nuthing on me.

Amen, citizen Jayne! Hehe! (tried to rhyme with Cain) I'm glad you did your political best! Oh yeah, I forgot going door to door! And writing articles and letters.... blah blah. The walking all those apartment stairs was hard on the knee bone, too! Well, as I said, one Amurican to another --- HOWDY !!!!

So ya ready to take me for a spin on the dance floor, heh?

BC ;)

halva

03-01-2005, 09:16 PM

CTC is most always so polite a place to introduce information and share.
It is very different than the liars club that tries to paint false claims here.

Looks like Chemtrails is hotter than ever:

To: mark sky
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:37 am
Subject: Carnicom video
Hi Mark,

since I cant post...
just wanted to let ya know that someone has managed to get both the Carnicom video and In Plane Site on a local cable channel5 (FOX) out of Watebury Conn the last 3 Sat nites (9-10pm or so). They must serve at least 250000 people! Keep up the good work.

IC, what do you mean you can't post?

Aren't you able to post at CTC?

Boomer Chick

03-01-2005, 10:13 PM

You do your thing, I'll do mine. That's the American way, and that's freedom.

Perhaps it was possible when there was what Europeans (but perhaps not the 'native Americans') saw as an 'empty continent' to occupy.

Halva, freedom of expression for now and for most is what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about geographical freedom of movement. And if we were talking about that aspect, the US has Greece and Australia beat as far as population per square mile. There's plenty of room here!

In other parts of the world where the story of the rise and fall of peoples and civilisations is more complex, conceptions of 'freedom' are also more nuanced.

And you meant to say? Nuanced? We're talking the Bill of Rights and the Consitution and no, its not as nuanced here in terms of our knowing our freedoms. We know them and we don't like it when any of them are threatened. Remember our Revolution? You may assume that people in Europe are more "tactful" would be our term, and discreet in their communications with eachother, but I know people from various countries and I find them more outspoken, more opinionated and more loud than many in our country. Some Germans I've known were the most obnoxious and next to that, the Polish! But, they were only individuals and one cannot judge from individuals whole populations, now can they?

The idea of Raynolds writing a book about what he has been doing for the last five-six-seven years touches on a sore point with him. He would like to be big-time asshole like Michael Crichton, who the media talk about. But the mainstream is not interested in shedding too much light on this sordid little story of 'chemmies' and debunkers.

I see nothing wrong with someone writing a book when they're so dedicated to a subject. I don't care what the book is about. And it's not expensive. Many publishing companies give advances and there are so many smaller publishing outfits now that the market is incredibly mobile, facile, and individualized. Mainstream would have nothing to do with this project, frankly.

The consequences would be counterproductive.

Counter productive for whom? I see nothing counterproductive about it whatsoever. If he wrote the book objectively and stuck to the verified facts, and avoided slanderous accusations and unfounded libel, then he could write quite an interesting expose of his encounters and his observations.

Anyway, we keep circling around and around the same point. Freedom of speech.[/quote[

So? Sometimes it's a good thing to review!

[quote]Articles have been posted recently about how the ideal of freedom of speech is misused in giving space to superficially scientific articles that question the reality of anthropogenic global warming. It is beginning to dawn on the political mainstream what the consequences of 'freedom of speech' really are.

Actually, opposing articles on any subject are a relevant and good way to balance things. As one article stated, as long as the science itself is peer reviewed and acceptable science, the more reports we can read the better. One scientist says this another says that, but indeed, it is the science itself that should be scrutinized for its efficacy. Being able to read all of the reports is indeed an integral and valued part of our freedom of the press.

They can do nothing about this through utilising their own political system. All they can do is turn up the level of hysteria, as with the BBC 'Global Dimming' video.

Various factions will always employ their scientists, but the consumer must beware as is the mantra of the wise.

But when it comes to hysteria nobody can ever compete with a hardened anti-communist cold-warrior, who has acquired mastery of the hysteria mode through generations of practice.

Generations of practice? Are you talking the Bushies? The Bush family? I agree with that one, and the European cohorts in crime as well. They are going down, don't worry.

As I pointed out....only the 'social forum' system contains built-in, reflexive, automatic censorship mechanisms against people like Raynolds. At the moment these censorship mechanisms work too narrowly. They lump into the 'racist' category many people who should perhaps be given more of a hearing. But given the situation we are in, and given that the more sophisticated sectors of the community cannot provide us with the institutions we need to defend ourselves, their advantages outweigh their disadvantages.

Who Phelps as racist? Who are you talking about as the "more sophisticated sectors"? What "insitutions" to protect ourselves? I'm sorry, Halva, you seem a little tipped on the OOOZO this morning. Is it morning there? Could you please just speak directly? Are you talking science searches? I found a whole bunch of them today.

The narrowness cannot be invoked by Raynolds as legitimation of anything about himself. He can never be something other than part of the problem.

Raynolds is not going to consent to a 'live and let live' settlement, BC.

Halva, you put expectations and rules on others. You label them and I wish you would see in a broader perspective. I know what you think and see about him, but I'm asking you to let it go and just concentrate on you and what you want to focus upon regarding YOUR subjects. Honestly, no one has power unless you allow them to. He's just a man sitting at his computer and his words are just words and you give words too much power if you imagine them as such. The world is much bigger than this forum and you could express yourself in much larger arenas of public and social life. Reynolds is my brother, just as you are my brother --- and if we can't live in in peace and communicate with peace in our hearts than you -- who cannot change tension into peace are just as at fault as those you accuse. DO YOU HEAR ME? You must BE the change you seek in the world, first, and then ask it of others! You, in this post, are invoking a defense mechanism in another. You will reap what you sow! You didn't have to post this about Reynolds. If you consider yourself to be a truth and peace person, a social activist of sorts, well, you had better start walking the walk and talking the talk, because time is running out. My brother, time is running out.

Good morning and good night!

BC :)

halva

03-01-2005, 11:18 PM

From where I am sitting here the situation regarding free speech is quite simple: an anthropogenic climate change (and pro-genetically modified food) pressure group such as the Scientific Alliance, Michael Crichton's respectable-society allies, will be given a respectful hearing in parliament. Gabriel Stetter or other 'chemmies' will not.

Parliament does not dare to say to the Scientific Alliance what it says to chemmies: 'Fuck off, go away. We're not going to listen to you.'

The objective is not to produce a situation where both sides will be listened to respectfully. That is impossible. It can and will never happen.

There must be (there is) another 'parliament' that will listen to the chemmies and tell the Scientific Alliance to fuck off. The demands of pluralism are satisfied if the two parliaments can co-exist without one smashing the other.

Of course my objective, and all our objectives, must be to minimise the power and influence of the parliament that listens to the Scientific Alliance. Take away its powers so that it occupies the marginal role now occupied by the social forums.

Insurrectionchemistry

03-02-2005, 12:35 AM

For the occasional browser that may encounter this Forum's discussion thread:

One should make no mistake that Reynolds and his gang are no different than a theif and a petty thug.

These thieves seek to steal things, like your rights to have environmental impact statements on the changes in the jet fuel and jet engines that mark up the skies with ugly lines that bleed into Sun obscuring haze.

They steal your right to know about the additional acid rain effects that raise the toxic metals content in the food and water chain, that lead to additional disease problems in both animals and man.

These are the things his GOP oriented theivery seek to take from everyone in the world, using harassment methods, like a group of petty thugs attempting to hide theft behind faked up free speech.

Reynolds and his thugs seek to harass people into giving up their rights to public involment and their rights to know what these changes in jet emissions are doing to the planet and why these factors were changed.

These Reynolds methods are the signs of criminal related issues, not those of upstanding citizens seeking enlightenment for the masses and protection of their rights as citizens.

Insurrectionchemistry

03-02-2005, 12:46 AM

Halva inquires:

IC, what do you mean you can't post?

Aren't you able to post at CTC?
======

It was an email to mark from someone in new england. I am in Tennessee, not New England. Recall the first line---I say CTC is a much more pleasant environment without GOP oriented thiefs and thugs around to harass people.

Mark is passing out the new Cliffie chemtrails production and it is getting air time on public tv channels.

People need to take some of these video copies to the public and community tv stations for airing and take copies to public libraries for public access.

Things are not what the GOP delusional world of theft of citizens rights would proclaim.

Insurrectionchemistry

03-02-2005, 01:06 AM

Simon Stuart (who happens to have the same last name as UK Royal blood folks from the Jewish line of David's throne) and his faked up views on religion:

Revelations has many quotations from Jesus and his followers views. Jesus was of the family of David Via his mom, which was a very wealthy group of the Royal line. Jesus was well traveled and even seems to have gone to the UK to look at family tin mines. He knew the metals business. He likely also knew the volcano make rich mining areas for gold and other metals and minerals.

Jesus was given life by the Magi's acceptance and knowledge of the true elements of religion. Much of the Moses stuff came from his experiences in Egypt, where the rulers used religion and temples for their political success factors.

Moses god included mother nature factors in the form of the Mt. Sinai volcano near Midian. It was this alchemy from the volcanos the Egypians feared would come to kill them, that Moses attempted to shape into god. Moses and his brother in law Jethro learned to live and work around these emissions. Even to gather manna from the metals fallout in the volcanic plume.

The message in revelations is a strong one that predicts the end of the Jews by fire, and such a prediction only comes against those that tell great lies and cause great deceptions.

That this be the case and that this faction have used these methods to gain wealth and power via those games is going to be their demise.

halva

03-02-2005, 01:39 AM

People need to take some of these video copies to the public and community tv stations for airing and take copies to public libraries for public access.

Things are not what the GOP delusional world of theft of citizens rights would proclaim.

I sent off my order today for the new version of Carnicom's video.

halva

03-02-2005, 01:45 AM

I'm thinking this latest article promotes Jim Phelp's stuff. Won't THAT be a 'crock', BC?

Raynolds, what do you mean when you say you 'are thinking' that Gabriel S.'s article promotes Jim Phelps?

I feel embarrassed about asking the question 'what do you mean', but in this case I don't suppose any great harm can be done.

jayreynolds

03-02-2005, 03:39 AM

Amen, citizen Jayne! Hehe! (tried to rhyme with Cain) I'm glad you did your political best! Oh yeah, I forgot going door to door! And writing articles and letters.... blah blah. The walking all those apartment stairs was hard on the knee bone, too! Well, as I said, one Amurican to another --- HOWDY !!!!

So ya ready to take me for a spin on the dance floor, heh?

BC ;)

Hey in my rural area, no apartment stairs. You have to be ready for mean dogs and hillbillies with shotguns. Seriously, I've seen a pistol slipped into a pocket after the guy opened the door.

jayreynolds

03-02-2005, 03:48 AM

Reynolds is my brother, just as you are my brother ---
BC :)
well, let's just say he's your adopted brother, BC. I certainly don't want to be related to Wayne.

jayreynolds

03-02-2005, 03:53 AM

Of course my objective, and all our objectives, must be to minimise the power and influence of the parliament that listens to the Scientific Alliance. Take away its powers so that it occupies the marginal role now occupied by the social forums.

wayne, you have mantioned the European Social Forum many times, yet you have failed to present the case for "Chemtrails" as I challenged you to do.
http://www.fse-esf.org/en/
Even in that, you are a failure.

jayreynolds

03-02-2005, 03:57 AM

These thieves seek to steal things, like your rights to have environmental impact statements on the changes in the jet fuel and jet engines that mark up the skies with ugly lines that bleed into Sun obscuring haze.
.

hey, Jimbo, last year EPA asked for public comments on their proposed rules reagrding avaiation pollution. Where were your comments, or those of other chemmies?

For that matter, where is that lab analysis of jet fuel you promised to get for us, or are you still just blowing smoke instead of a whistle?

jayreynolds

03-02-2005, 04:00 AM

Raynolds, what do you mean when you say you 'are thinking' that Gabriel S.'s article promotes Jim Phelps?

I feel embarrassed about asking the question 'what do you mean', but in this case I don't suppose any great harm can be done.
I haven't seen the article. If you have it, post a link to it. If he brings Jimbo's claims into the mix, he shows himself to be an even greater crock than when he brought 'deep shield' and the claims that ordinary contrails don't persist. Anyone with a dose of reason takes ne look, and they laugh at Stetter's tripe. I need a good laugh every day.

So, where's the beef?

BTW, In the US, the term 'crock' is a reference to that article which is called a "chamber pot" in jolly old England. Pip-pip old bean!

halva

03-02-2005, 07:23 AM

Insurrectionchemistry

03-02-2005, 07:26 AM

halva

03-02-2005, 07:32 AM

I haven't seen the article. If you have it, post a link to it. If he brings Jimbo's claims into the mix, he shows himself to be an even greater crock than when he brought 'deep shield' and the claims that ordinary contrails don't persist. Anyone with a dose of reason takes ne look, and they laugh at Stetter's tripe. I need a good laugh every day.

So, where's the beef?

BTW, In the US, the term 'crock' is a reference to that article which is called a "chamber pot" in jolly old England. Pip-pip old bean!

As a matter of fact there is extended reference to Jim Phelps in the article. I just wanted to see if you knew that already.

I, and not only I, naturally I, want to get more information about what exactly is being done. If we can't get any information from official sources inevitably we will read and pay attention to what Jim Phelps says, until such times as we have something more authoritative to go by.

I don't know if G. Stetter's article is on line. He sent to me by regular mail the magazine it is published in.

halva

03-02-2005, 08:57 AM

wayne, you have mantioned the European Social Forum many times, yet you have failed to present the case for "Chemtrails" as I challenged you to do.
http://www.fse-esf.org/en/
Even in that, you are a failure.

Reposted from "Ama Lahi"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ama_lahi

"Last Friday 5th November (2004) ATTAC-Hellas organized a public meeting on
the European Constitutional Treaty, misnamed European Constitution,
attracting an attendance of between sixty and seventy people. The
speakers were 1) the constitutional law professor Antonis Manitakis,
well-known in Greece for his writings on the European Constitution,
2) the Cypriot trade union activist Nikos Trimiklionitis, who has
also written on constitutional issues, including in the
magazine 'Theseis', 3) the former Europarliamentarian Michalis
Papagiannakis. ATTAC's positions were outlined by Gerasimos Georgatos
and I was the convenor.

The title of Manitakis's address was 'Rejection of the European
Constitutional Treaty: first step in the popular process of European
integration'. Trimiklionitis spoke on the proposed constitution as a
mechanism for promoting illegal immigration. Papagiannakis spoke in
favour of the existing treaty.

All agreed, however, on the necessity of upgrading the role of the
European Social Forum, the institutionalisation of which - in my
conception - is the way by which Direct Democracy can take root in
the European Union."

p.s. In December the liberal Papagiannakis stood for the Presidency of the Greek Synaspismos party
http://www.syn.gr/index/en/enmainframe.htm
but lost to the ex-Stalinist Alexandros Alavanos.

Papagiannakis remains de facto head of the 'ecological' wing of the Synaspismos. He is a supporter of the campaign against climate change.

(Photographs from the public meeting: Papagiannakis extreme right, Manitakis to his left.)
http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/CuBiCLe/29501/349590/0/vote2.jpg
http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/CuBiCLe/29501/349591/0/vote3.jpg

Boomer Chick

03-02-2005, 10:10 AM

Hey in my rural area, no apartment stairs. You have to be ready for mean dogs and hillbillies with shotguns. Seriously, I've seen a pistol slipped into a pocket after the guy opened the door.

Hehehe! I believe you! When covering our own precinct, not in town, we had to drive to the homes in our rural area, acreage averaging five to ten, and it was so time consuming we ended up attaching information to the mailbox stands and newspaper holders! When people were home, we talked to them of course. But the most dangerous part of it was dealing with that little mini-Doberman!!! Of course we didn't dare approach the homes of the opposing party.... only the non-affiliated voters and the registered voters of our party! Republicans, however, came to our house even with a Kerry Sign posted out front! Amazing chutzpa!

The Dems are outnumbered in our whole county, and especially our precinct, by Republicans. It's the most conservative county in all of Colorado. However, the demographics are gradually changing and the independents outnumber the Republicans in some precincts and the Dems are gaining numbers in others. In only one precinct do Dems have demographic chance if they would all vote, and this time around the Dems turned out in that precinct and did outnumber the Repubs at the polls. It's not a place where local state Dem candidates often win or win at all. Only had one candidate won in the last 15 years, and he lost the first time he ran and ran again and won. In the Colorado legislature, the Dems outnumber the Republicans.

BC ;)

Insurrectionchemistry

03-02-2005, 10:10 AM

Halva writes:

" As a matter of fact there is extended reference to Jim Phelps in the article. "

=====

Interesting, sounds like there will be lots of new free advertising to focus on the invention of chemtrails and what the science for the big picture represents. These are indeed exciting times.

Darn, he did not send me a copy of the article, or perhaps the transatlantic route is a little slow. It took 3 weeks for a simple letter to get to Oregon from Tennessee recently. I think they shipped it via the Panama Canal or Cape South route.

Now, one of the most interesting points to begin to consider on the whys and hows of chemtrails is simply to look at the way volcanoes work. Much of the science on the making of chemtrails came right off the pages of how the transport for volcanoes work. How they tend to form hygroscopic metal compounds that carry metals widely and how they also tend to form metal sufites that fall out near the emission points.

One of the most interesting equations for volcanoes is how they are creditied with forming the atmosphere for this planet. All the gases the volcanoes emit break down into the oxygen environment that came to sustain plant life and then animals. It was perhaps this genesis effect that Moses chose to place volcanoes in the same significance as god.

The most important factor to being with in global warming and the ozone hole is to begin with the steady state equations for how the planet was built by these volcanic emissions and their very strong emissions of sulfur, as in SO2 and H2S that dominated the effects with metals retention in soils.

Then one comes along and adds the man-made emissions, like the higher emissions of HCl from coal burning and the NOx compounds from air combusion of hydrocarbons. Then one can see what happens with the steady state balance equations that were the norm for millenea.

It is here that the real science behind chemtrails is proven by just natural processes that came to make clouds in these times before man, and that set up the trace metals presence in the soils.

Once one gets the idea to look at this as the point of origin for life on planet Earth, then add in the man-made shifts from that steady state equation--------one finds not only the origin of illness and diseases-----but also a simple equation that relates to eternal life.

So, in Moses making a volcanoe effects into a version of god, there is some truth, but the truth falls short in the presentation of Genesis. It falls into a sort of veiled secret of those times and a way to empower themselves over others by shielding these simple sciences from other's view.

Which is how so much of the blame game has to focus on the Jews covering up these rather simple effects and profiting from them.

jayreynolds

03-02-2005, 10:23 AM

I sent off my order today for the new version of Carnicom's video.

I'm wondering if he has video of his "home dentistry experiment" on there.

Remember, the one where he dug into his gums with a needle(OUCH!) for weeks until he was able to extract a nerve ganglion which he then displays online?

Showed this web page to a doctor, he diagnosed Clifford as having a form of delusional behavior, coupled with self-mutilation............
http://www.carnicom.com/med1.htm

jayreynolds

03-02-2005, 10:30 AM

One should make no mistake that Reynolds and his gang are no different than a thief and a petty thug.

These thieves seek to steal things, like your rights to have environmental impact statements on the changes in the jet fuel and jet engines that mark up the skies with ugly lines that bleed into Sun obscuring haze.

They steal your right to know about the additional acid rain effects that raise the toxic metals content in the food and water chain, that lead to additional disease problems in both animals and man.

Citizens have the right to know about a poison like HF being rained down into the gardens and how the fluorine atom upsets the human immune system in the long term.

These are the things his GOP oriented theivery seek to take from everyone in the world, using harassment methods, like a group of petty thugs attempting to hide theft behind faked up free speech.

Reynolds and his thugs seek to harass people into giving up their rights to public involment and their rights to know what these changes in jet emissions are doing to the planet and why these factors were changed.

These Reynolds methods are the signs of criminal related issues, not those of upstanding citizens seeking enlightenment for the masses and protection of their rights as citizens.

Hey, Jimbo, I helped you out a lot in making corrections to obviously false stuff on your pathetic hoax. Some of it you changed as a result. I also asked plenty of times for documentation of your claims, but none ever came. Can't blame me for not trying to help you prepare somewhat for those tough days ahead when you start getting debunked elsewhere, and haven't a leg to stand on. You'll be begging Jay Reynolds to come help you, but I'll be sniggering in the background watching you fall into eating the poison pill that I never told you about.............

Boomer Chick

03-02-2005, 10:34 AM

Just a reminder. Her site presents nothing new and is our of date, but this article struck me for some reason:

Reader beware:

From M.E. Cassini

http://208.56.43.12/ei/ct/chemfacts4.htm

PROPAGANDA

As mentioned earlier, I would like to detach information I contributed to Chemtrails research from some dangerous propaganda that is being woven into many of these "cut and paste" Chemtrails articles. Propaganda, I would like also to say, has absolutely nothing to do with Chemtrail tracking/research and quite frankly reeks of White Supremacist agendas, re: the inclusion of an ancient racist tract, The Protocols of The Elders of Zion, with New World Order take-over paranoia which it is being purported is supposedly masterminded by Jewish Bilderberger-types who propose to "rule the world".

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a fake document that was created during the reign of Czar Alexander, father to the last Czar of Russia, Nicholas II. It was created by that Czars’s cabinet as an excuse to crack down on the Bolshevists who were threatening to overturn the Imperial Crown of Russia. These cabinet members penned a "secret" document detailing the plan of the "Elders of Zion", i.e., Jewish people, to take over the world, overthrow the Imperial Crown nations, and institute their own oligarchy by a handful of Jewish Elders. These cabinet members then signed Jewish names (as many Bolshevists were Russian Jews) to the document as being the authors of it. They then distributed this document throughout St. Petersburg and Russia. Eventually, the document found its way to England and Europe as the crown heads of Europe were related by blood to the Russian Imperial Crown, and thus, all Crown nations were at risk by these Jewish Elders proposal to do away with Imperial rule. This document circulated throughout Europe for decades and it wouldn’t be until much later, in the 20th century, that the document did its most devastating damage. It was championed by Goebbels, Hitler’s propaganda minister, as something that would help the Third Reich convince the German people of the growing "Jewish Menace". Suffice it to say, that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion , in the hands of the Nazi’s this time around, became the torch that lit the fires of the Holocaust and kept the ovens of Auschwitz burning night and day until 6,000,000 souls had perished.

About a month ago, I received an e-mail which made note of this document as related to Chemtrails research. Needless to say, my heart sunk to think that this piece of trash that wreaked so much pain and havoc in the world was still circulating, now proposed as foundation for the New World Order take-over, essentially stating that The United Nations were, in fact, the "Elders Of Zion" in disguise and that the New World Order was really the original plan described over a century ago by these Jewish Elders. And, basically, that Chemtrails were the evidence of this plan via the New World Order/United Nations/Elders of Zion, going into effect. This garbage tract was being circulated by all people, a Christian minister, whom shall go nameless here, and it was being distributed as a forward to numerous people on a Chemtrails mailing list. If anyone might wonder why the mainstream media will not touch the Chemtrails story with a 10 foot pole, this one incident may explain it. This tract appears on White Supremacist websites as their reason why Hitler should have finished the job. So, if Chemtrails researchers truly want to be heard by the mainstream media, I suggest they disentangle themselves from this dangerous nuclear weapon of propaganda that is being bandied about in forwarded e-mail lists to Chemtrails researchers. No one, and I do mean NO ONE, in the mainstream media, nor the United States Senate or Congress, will so much as give any of us the time of day with this racist albatross around the Chemtrails issue’s neck. So let it go on record here, in this public venue, that I do not support this pitiful, hate-mongering piece of trash, as having any association or relation to serious Chemtrails research, and I, for one, completely dissociate myself, my work, my name, my anything, with anyone who does support it, whether they are fellow Chemtrails researchers or whom they are. You are no colleague of mine if you support this and/or passively keep silent on its distribution.

BC

jayreynolds

03-02-2005, 10:36 AM

I don't have to present the case to you. You are just another citizen and speak for nobody.

No, silly, Wayne you keep saying you are counting on these "social forums" to present your case
for the chemtrails hoax. Yet you never have gotten "chemtrails" to be a topic at the social forum.

Sound like you wannabe, but can't hack it. Maybe you could arrange a lecture by Jim Phelps at the next ESF. Make sure he set's sail a few weks ahead, wouldn't want to fly over and make any contrails, now, would we!...........he-he-he

jayreynolds

03-02-2005, 10:48 AM

[QUOTE=halva] Trimiklionitis spoke on the proposed constitution as a
mechanism for promoting illegal immigration. Papagiannakis spoke in
favour of the existing treaty.

All agreed, however, on the necessity of upgrading the role of the
European Social Forum, the institutionalisation of which - in my
conception - is the way by which Direct Democracy can take root in
the European Union."
QUOTE]

Won't it be cool when 60 million Turks can just ride the ferry and invade into Greece, take over without firing a shot, Wayne?

But hey, democracy is a two-way street. When you buy into it, you have to abide by whatever laws the mob decides on, and can change to, from minute to minute.
Of course, that's why democracy is so bad, and was rejected as a form of governemnt suited for free people like Americans.

If yerpeen countries want to destroy themselves economically with Kyoto, and nationally with a Union, so be it. When you raise up the next Hitler, he'll already have the political aparatus pre-set for total domination of the continent, then we get to bomb the whole place this time!

jayreynolds

03-02-2005, 10:55 AM

As a matter of fact there is extended reference to Jim Phelps in the article. I just wanted to see if you knew that already..

Man, Wayne, if you had a hand in that, you screwed up big time. I can see some amusing times coming along from this.............

You know the problem with hitching your wagon to an insane clown troll is that once the bogus information is out there, especially online, i can't be recalled so easily, evn if it passes it's 'expires by' date. A bell, once unrung, can't be 'unrung'. I still get chemmies coming along swearing up and down that ethylene dibromide is in jet fuel. It makes for easy debunking.

jayreynolds

03-02-2005, 11:00 AM

Just a reminder. Her site presents nothing new and is our of date, but this article struck me for some reason:
Reader beware:
From M.E. Cassini
http://208.56.43.12/ei/ct/chemfacts4.htm
BC

Margareta has more moral authority and integrity in her left toenail than most chemmies have in their whole being. Most likely that is why her site is out of date. Too bad she hasn't seen fit to 'out' lots of other stuff she knows about related to promoters of the hoax.

Insurrectionchemistry

03-02-2005, 12:13 PM

http://www.doewatch.com/chemtrails.html

POLITICS AND RELIGION RUN AMUCK

Back in the mid-80s when I isolated these fluorine problems connected to the NFx injection into the atmosphere dominating global warming and the AlFx problems connected to a dominate effect in the human illness equation, I did not know the total level of corruption in both the Government and in Religion that it would reveal. Those discoveries revealed a truth monster of epic proportion, and a better solution.

The game going on hiding chemtrails is a big one that is on the order of a mythical hydra, which needs all its heads chopped off at once to end the exploitation games. The heads for this hydra were born in stages over a long period of time. Perhaps the beginning came with the formation of the rulers and religion models of old Egypt and how their rulers came to power in conjunction with the support of their so called gods and religious temple establishments. The large temples of Egypt's Karnack region speak to how well the rulers funded these religion factors to stay in power and rule the kingdom. Then later, how Moses used this concept for his invention of Judaism and the beginnings of the Torah. In these times god was invented by man for man's purposes and it is still largely that way today.

Other critical points came down the line with the Throne of David and the establishment of the rich Royal Family descendents, which over the millennia gained much monetary power. This power would come to consolidate around the establishment of Catholicism and the Pope of the Roman Empire, which was largely run by Jewish persons in the beginning. And this Royal Line come to control most of the big money in Europe and even make the laws via the Church they controlled. The biggest game in all of Europe was that of religion and they pretty much dictated to those in power what the laws were to be and it catered to the Jewish Royal money system.

Another critical point concerned the US and how the European Jewish money sought to market slaves in the US. It began with slaves being sold to the northern manufacturing states, which failed because the slaves could not deal with the complexities. So, this European slave trader moved down to the US's Carolinas to market the slaves to the Southern Plantation owners. This met with some acceptance in the beginning, but became the roots of the Civil War in the end. The same Jewish Royal money line that supplied these slaves was the same one that funded the US Civil War and bought up a huge interest in the US. When President Lincoln detected the money games, he was killed by Royal Family loyalist named Booth.

In the US this Jewish Wealth Empire controls the bulk of the press in newsprint and on television, they dominate Hollywood, they attempt to dominate and dictate to religion in the US, and they have the money to elect those to Congress and the presidency that will support their continued monopoly over the US.

The problems became worse with the Rockefellers planned the Federal Reserve Banking System among the US wealthy of Jekyl Island, Ga. This put the European Jewish Rothschilds in control of the US Govt. money system and their banks able to demand varied levels of usury. In this time the Rockefeller oil interests also established the pharmaceuticals business and the American Medical Association. This was the beginning of the industrial age and lots of pollution would follow from the use of fossil fuels and industry emissions of all kinds of pollution that would set up illness patterns.

This Royal Jewish wealth is what demanded too much from Germany and started up the beginning of WWII. This Jewish wealth system declared war on Hitler in 1933 for Germany kicking the Jews out of the money control and Govt. of Germany. This was a direct attack on the Jewish Rothschilds Empire and Monoply on economic control of Europe. The Rothschilds real last name was Bauer and they were of German descent and wealth. They did not like being removed from their economic power position by Hitler.

These Rich Jewish bankers set up pulling both the UK and US into this war for economic empire over Europe. Everyone thought the Roman Empire was dissolved, but its seed of power still existed in the form of all these very wealthy Jewish Royal family types. Even the queen of the UK is directly related to this Jewish bloodline that goes back to the Throne of David. It was both Churchhill and Roosevelt catering to this system of wealth that drew each country into a war with Germany.

As we get nearer to the present day, it was persons like US President John Kennedy who encountered the economic dictatorial power of this Jewish dominated system. Some call them the "Illuminati" and others call them the "Bilderburg" conference persons, but they are collectively around 200 Jewish Royal bloodline families that control 80 percent of the wealth in Europe and try to have the same level of control over the US. They collective represent a monopo