It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature

[whitemajikman]

Readers:

Its expected the type answer from ones that are ingnorant of their own ignorance!

Well Gaia you seem to be a sucker for punishment,and I'm bored ,so in light of my boredom and your stupidity
in underestimating my supposed ....as you say,Ignorance lets debate something with meaning.

1) What is your motives and what drives you to keep promoting the chemtrail hoax......?
2)Geo-engineering is not a hoax,What is the goal of geo-engineering...?
3)What part of the political spectrum do you currently reside....?
4) Would you call yourself an activist Gaia......?
5) Where are your whisle blowers.....5 years and no whistle blowers.
6) Who is reaping great profit from this hoax......?
7) What group Politically has everything to gain and nothing to lose by this hoax.
8)Why is there not one Scientist willing to go that extra mile to prove or disprove this hoax....?
9)Why in the last 3 years has every anti-nwo/survivalist/etc.....etc....etc...
picked up on the chemtrails hoax and now use them as a main theme of their hate sites......and their anti-establishment propaganda,but when questioned .....run back to their insulated enviroments and hide from scrutiny....as Halva has done time and time again.......?


10) here is the last and final question.....why do extreme chemmies run from debunkers and act like fascist little hitlers when they are challenged.......?


Answer all of these questions Truthfully.........Or are you going to take the Easy way out and run to the hills like Halva and so many others have done............In other words ......do you have any balls to stand by your convictions......to the end.......or are you just like The Mech's and Halva's of the world..... all mouth no brains.......?[/list]

[whitemajikman]

Gaia ....You there.........?.....lol :lol:

[tessd]

As I was reading the latest column, the tears were involuntarily streaming down my face.

I am so disheartened by what has happened to my wonderful country and I hope that John Kerry takes all of Arianna's suggestions.

I contribute by running a non-profit that raises money to pay for abortions for poor women across the country who would otherwise be forced to carry an uwanted pregnancy to term. However, it feels as if that's not enough so I am starting a project to organize my community to petition my city to overturn the so-called Patriot Act.

What plans do the rest of you have?

[Enviroman]

White, when you type, somehow you are typing inside the other persons quote and its hard to see what it is that you are typing.

[Enviroman]

As I was reading the latest column, the tears were involuntarily streaming down my face.

I am so disheartened by what has happened to my wonderful country and I hope that John Kerry takes all of Arianna's suggestions.

I contribute by running a non-profit that raises money to pay for abortions for poor women across the country who would otherwise be forced to carry an uwanted pregnancy to term. However, it feels as if that's not enough so I am starting a project to organize my community to petition my city to overturn the so-called Patriot Act.

What plans do the rest of you have?

The problem is, is that your city can not overturn it. It can make a "symbolic" statement, but it can only be overturned by courts, or congress has to pass legislation that overturns it

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Its expected the type answer from ones that are ingnorant of their own ignorance!

Well Gaia you seem to be a sucker for punishment,and I'm bored ,so in light of my boredom and your stupidity
in underestimating my supposed ....as you say,Ignorance lets debate something with meaning.

1) What is your motives and what drives you to keep promoting the chemtrail hoax......?
2)Geo-engineering is not a hoax,What is the goal of geo-engineering...?
3)What part of the political spectrum do you currently reside....?
4) Would you call yourself an activist Gaia......?
5) Where are your whisle blowers.....5 years and no whistle blowers.
6) Who is reaping great profit from this hoax......?
7) What group Politically has everything to gain and nothing to lose by this hoax.
8)Why is there not one Scientist willing to go that extra mile to prove or disprove this hoax....?
9)Why in the last 3 years has every anti-nwo/survivalist/etc.....etc....etc...
picked up on the chemtrails hoax and now use them as a main theme of their hate sites......and their anti-establishment propaganda,but when questioned .....run back to their insulated enviroments and hide from scrutiny....as Halva has done time and time again.......?


10) here is the last and final question.....why do extreme chemmies run from debunkers and act like fascist little hitlers when they are challenged.......?


Answer all of these questions Truthfully.........Or are you going to take the Easy way out and run to the hills like Halva and so many others have done............In other words ......do you have any balls to stand by your convictions......to the end.......or are you just like The Mech's and Halva's of the world..... all mouth no brains.......?[/list]




Answer:
) What is your motives and what drives you to keep promoting the chemtrail hoax......? I HAVE NO MOTIVE OR HIDDEN AGENDA, I JUST KNOW AS A PHYSICIST THAT CHEMTRAILS CAN BE CAUSED BY SOME OF THE CLAIMS OF THE ADVOCATES. IT IS NOT A HOAX BUT A WELL PLANNED EXAMPLE OF HOW SCIENCE AND BUSINESS CAN DO WHATEVER THEY PLEASE AND IF MISTAKES ARE MADE SO WHAT...SUE THEM!
2)Geo-engineering is not a hoax,What is the goal of geo-engineering...? TO PROMOTE SCIENCES THAT DEAL WITH CHANGING THE ENVIRONMENT TO FIT THE NEEDS OF FEW AND NOT THE MANY. AND A METHOD TO PROMOTE NEW TECHNOLOGIES TO EITHER CURE THE ENVIRONMENT SLOW IT DOWN OR EVEN CHANGE IT PERMANTLEY.
3)What part of the political spectrum do you currently reside....? I BELIEVE IN FREEDOM FOR ALL PEOPLE NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE...PATRIOT. WOMEN ARE EQUAL AS WELL!
4) Would you call yourself an activist Gaia......? YES
5) Where are your whisle blowers.....5 years and no whistle blowers. EITHER IN JAIL, PAID OFF, OR DEAD!
6) Who is reaping great profit from this hoax......? EVRYONE ON ALL SIDES!
7) What group Politically has everything to gain and nothing to lose by this hoax. NO GROUP...THEY ALL WORK COLLECTIVLEY!
8)Why is there not one Scientist willing to go that extra mile to prove or disprove this hoax....? BECAUSE OF EGO AND POSTION WITHIN THE ACADEMIA.
9)Why in the last 3 years has every anti-nwo/survivalist/etc.....etc....etc...
picked up on the chemtrails hoax and now use them as a main theme of their hate sites......and their anti-establishment propaganda,but when questioned .....run back to their insulated enviroments and hide from scrutiny....as Halva has done time and time again.......? I DON'T KNOW, ASK THEM!


10) here is the last and final question.....why do extreme chemmies run from debunkers and act like fascist little hitlers when they are challenged.......? ITS NATURAL FOR ALL PEOPLE TO BE DEFENSIVE AND SCARED OF TRUTH. BUT THAT IS TRUE FOR BOTH SIDES NOW IS IT NOT?

THE ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS ARE MY OPINION ONLY BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE AND FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE.

I HOPE THIS BEGINS A NEW BRIDGE TO EXCHANGE INFORMATION WITH EACH OTHER TO HELP US BOTH UNDERSTAND!

[gaiacomm]

I am still requesting quantifiable data and detailed photos of planes and their specialized spraying equipment.

There just seems to be so many side issues and people are talking about everything but evidence and data.

I am still hoping someone can provide the kind of data or evidence, things that one could include in a lab report. Or photographs of an aircraft, with type and equipment visible.

Answer:

I know where you can get the info you need. You will of course have to have a Top Secret status. And you will not be able to post the results but at least you will know!

I admit to being somewhat confused by this. I am sure that someone must have some data and photos , it seems there are a lot of believers of it. If you are saying there is evidence, but it is all classified, then that also means there is not any evidence in public hands, which poses a big problem.

Has not someone seen a plane and its spraying gear at least somewhere? I get the impression there are a lot of people who are very active in chemtrails websites, and it seems like with so many people, there is the potential for lots of people to watch airports for planes with unusual equipment attached. Planes have to take off and land somewhere. Could someone get a job at an airport to help watch for planes?


Answer:

Yes it is a big problem. Nobody will place themselve in arms way just to prove a point!
This is real not make believe!

[jayreynolds]

looks like your buddy Liakopoulos did a hit-and-run there Wayne. He confirmed what I thought. First his racism and next that he simply lifted all his chemtrail stuff from William Thomas. Great job, Liakopoulos, you have assured that chemtrails will not get out of Greece without a good laugh if anyone of a scientific or aviation background reads it, which is doubtful if it's all Greek!

Hey, Amber, before you go running off telling the world about what a racist Bill Cooper was, maybe you had better ask his wife, who is an ethnic Chinese lady from Taiwan, or maybe their two multi-racial children. While your at it give Aaron Russo a call. He's the Jewish hollywood producer running for president as a libertarian. Aaron and Bill Cooper founded the "Constitution Party" back before the turn of the century and Bill backed Russo for President. Yeah, some kinda racist, huh?

[gaiacomm]

looks like your buddy Liakopoulos did a hit-and-run there Wayne. He confirmed what I thought. First his racism and next that he simply lifted all his chemtrail stuff from William Thomas. Great job, Liakopoulos, you have assured that chemtrails will not get out of Greece without a good laugh if anyone of a scientific or aviation background reads it, which is doubtful if it's all Greek!

Hey, Amber, before you go running off telling the world about what a racist Bill Cooper was, maybe you had better ask his wife, who is an ethnic Chinese lady from Taiwan, or maybe their two multi-racial children. While your at it give Aaron Russo a call. He's the Jewish hollywood producer running for president as a libertarian. Aaron and Bill Cooper founded the "Constitution Party" back before the turn of the century and Bill backed Russo for President. Yeah, some kinda racist, huh?



Jay:

You are finished on this thread! You are done! You have lost!
You try anything to get a rise!
But what makes it all worth it for the Chemtrails cause is that you are afraid of me and others like me....!!! And you know why Jay...tell the readers Jay....its not my place to tell them...then you would turn it around!

So come on Jay..you knew when I started posting here that you would have to fess up!

We are waiting little man!

[jayreynolds]

ah, yes 18 pages of wishy-washy from the chemmie squashys.
But wait, there is something they can't deal with, something they don't want to deal with, something they dare not deal with:

I'm reposting the most deadly questions ever to be asked of any "chemtrail" believers. These questions are so deadly that none
dare touch even one, lest their whole balloon burst!

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

[gaiacomm]

JAY, JUST WAIT!

[gaiacomm]

ah, yes 18 pages of wishy-washy from the chemmie squashys.
But wait, there is something they can't deal with, something they don't want to deal with, something they dare not deal with:

I'm reposting the most deadly questions ever to be asked of any "chemtrail" believers. These questions are so deadly that none
dare touch even one, lest their whole balloon burst!

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?




Jay:

I will attempt to answer your questions, and then you go AWAY or I will have to tell on you!


1.Do you have a background in a technical field?YES, PHYSICS If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? MANY SCIENTIST IF THEY COULD REMAIN CLOAKEDIf no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not? THERE ARE MANY SCIENTIST THAT WOULD SUPPORT IF ONE WOULD COME FORWARD!

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? VARIOUS WEBSITES AND CLASSIFIED KNOWLEDGE If none can be relied upon, why not? MOST OF THE INFO YOU SEEK IS CLASSIFIED!...NSA!!!! AND OTHERS.

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences?NO, BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT A FORUM FOR THAT If not, why not? BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE IS CLASSIFIED!

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"? A IMBALANCE OF THE BIOSPHERE CAUSED BY MANMADE EMISSIONS AND INJECTIONS BY CHEMICALS AND OTHER BY PRODUCT EXHAUSTS INTO THE AIR, LAND AND SEA.

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not? DO A SEARCH ON THE INTERNET!

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails? THE CHEMICAL STRING IS DIFFERENT.

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails? WHAT IS PUBLIC AND WHAT IS NOT!

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"? NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT..PLEASE PROVIDE!

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information? NO MORE THAN YOU BEING A SOURCE!
_________________

[gaiacomm]

Now Jay its your turn!

Why not tell the readers and your supporters about yourself, what you do, why you do what you do, and your past and present lifestyle!

I really don't have the heart to tell on you...that is for you Jay!

I know it burns you to know I know and that I found you here.
You would give anything for me to go away!

But Jay, not this time, you owe me and yourself this coming out!

I will wait and give you the floor!

Consider it payback for what you did!.....you know what I mean Jay!

[Bonehead9]

Now Jay its your turn!

Why not tell the readers and your supporters about yourself, what you do, why you do what you do, and your past and present lifestyle!

I really don't have the heart to tell on you...that is for you Jay!

I know it burns you to know I know and that I found you here.
You would give anything for me to go away!

But Jay, not this time, you owe me and yourself this coming out!

I will wait and give you the floor!

Consider it payback for what you did!.....you know what I mean Jay!


You call those answers?

Nice try Lance, but you have to do better than that.

[gaiacomm]

Now Jay its your turn!

Why not tell the readers and your supporters about yourself, what you do, why you do what you do, and your past and present lifestyle!

I really don't have the heart to tell on you...that is for you Jay!

I know it burns you to know I know and that I found you here.
You would give anything for me to go away!

But Jay, not this time, you owe me and yourself this coming out!

I will wait and give you the floor!

Consider it payback for what you did!.....you know what I mean Jay!


You call those answers?

Nice try Lance, but you have to do better than that.



Now I see why you call yourself bonehead!

The answers are one post above the Jay post I wrote!

[Bonehead9]

No sh1t, you moron, that is what I was talking about.

[gaiacomm]

No sh1t, you moron, that is what I was talking about.


Well at least I answered the questions!

Maybe not the answers you wanted or would you prefer I lied!

[gaiacomm]

You are something else!

You have no idea what you are doing, do you?
But you at least try?

This link is for you!

http://bonehead.oddballs.com/

[Bonehead9]

Hmmm is this true?



My Public Files | My Other Posts | My Profile | Email Me Post # 1423
markdavey
New Member
12 Posts
Status: Hidden
Registered Aug 2003
04/11/2002 Entry: "Death Rays from California"
If you read one article today, read this one. Apparently a reporter at Wired "hacked" into the public email account for the Iraqi regime:

It's not clear whether Saddam uses e-mail or even knows how to operate a personal computer. But scores of people write to him each week at press@uruklink.net, the e-mail address listed on the official homepage of the Iraqi presidency since at least October 2000.

Messages sent to the account, Iraq's version of president@whitehouse.gov, run the gamut from fawning solicitations for autographed photos and media interviews to obscene death threats.

The e-mails sent to press@uruklink.net were obtained earlier this month by first clicking on a link labeled "Check your e-mail in Uruk" on the homepage of Iraq's state-controlled ISP, Uruklink.net, then guessing the login name and password -- both of which were the same five-letter word.

The... "best" part of the article are descriptions of messages from people offering to sell products, services or intelligence that will help the dictator in his fight against America. Some of these are most likely jokes or frauds, but the great state of California has cooked up a beauty:

On Aug. 16, the CEO of a California wireless technology-maker e-mailed Saddam to request a meeting. According to the CEO's message, the two could discuss "technology improvements and exporting of rich technology abroad."

In a press release dated Sept. 13, the company said it has developed "4G" wireless technology capable of being used "as a weapon to ignite large sections of the atmosphere and incinerate all living creatures within its pre-selected coordinates." The press release also called for the resignation of President Bush.

The press release in question reads like a ransom note written in magazine clippings -- ripe with comments such as "Remember; always tell the truth that way you have nothing to remember!" and the generous offer to "ad significant value to the geo-political arena and ad it selfishly."

After taking several deep breaths to squelch the giggles I notice that the release was authored by one Judah Ben-Hur at gaiacomm@att.net. Who is Giacomm? Certainly appears to be the company described in the Wired article, a bona fide California C Corporation with grand plans for "4G" wireless technology. After a stimulating tour of their web site I see that they are indeed working on an "Ionosphere enhancement" program that would let you use your cell phone to call from Los Angeles to Timbuktu without using any satellite technology. And oh yes, it would also let you turn any corner of the planet into cozy corner of hell:

Geomagnetic-field aligned ionization to control the reflection/scattering properties of radio waves will result in a number of outcomes. It will jam unwanted signals, make data stealth, and focus RF signals to localized areas to selectively ignite the surrounding atmosphere, which will create a flash burn effect. This effect will incinerate all air and ground living and non-living entities. In short, a military weapon of unprecedented proportions with no nuclear radiation generated aftereffects. This device can use the surrounding atmospheric layers to burn off everything in its path without firing a single shot


I have images of dialing "*666" into my cel phone, punching in some GPS coordinates and waiting for the news on CNN.

But don't worry, the folks at GaiaComm appear to be a good bunch of patriots. This, from their 9/11/2002 press release:

GAIACOMM CORPORATION is appalled and furiously angered by this terrorist and his accomplices... How can words express sympathy for these families left behind? Honestly, they cannot. However, GAIACOMM CORPORATION declares this day to all the families and relatives that its 4G wireless technology is going to be modified to become an anchor in the defense of America, so that terrorism can be halted. We dedicate our technology as a Technology for Peace in this decade.

Let it be known this day that we are modifying the Gaiacomm technology to become an arcane military incineration weapon, and its use is to thwart all terrorists who even hint of posing a threat to America or her allies.

But that was then... and more recently they've tried to pawn off their death ray to China, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Palestine, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Israel.

And in case there was any misunderstanding, "We are not terrorists but scientists attempting to use our technology for peace but http://www.crazysaddam.com/archives/00000028.shtml


http://forums.orgonite.com/All%20Other%20Issues/7575/


You sir, are a nut with delusions of granduer

[foot_soldier]

5/28/98
EUROPA - Press Release
http://europa.eu.int/comm/research/press/1998/pr2805en.html

Rapid increase of aircraft emissions could affect atmospheric ozone and climate in the future

Leading European researchers have concluded that aircraft emissions are small in comparison to all other man-made emissions, but could be significantly affecting atmospheric ozone and cloud cover with possible implications for climate change. These are the conclusions of a comprehensive review of the current state of knowledge carried out at the initiative of the European Commission and published today in the scientific journal "Atmospheric Environment".....

May 2000
Air traffic contributing to climate change and ozone destruction
http://rossby.metr.ou.edu/~spark/AMON/v4_n1/News/Airtraffic.html

[Excerpted from Solcomhouse, 4 May 2000]

By the year 2050, increased flights by jet airplanes will impact global climate through the greater number of contrails they will produce, according to a study completed in 1999 and published in a journal named Geophysical Research Letters.

A research team of American and German scientists, headed by Patrick Minnis of the NASA Langley Research Center in Hampton, Virginia, reports evidence that contrails cause a warming of the Earth's atmosphere. Currently their impact is small as compared to other greenhouse effects. They predict, however, that it may grow by a factor of six over the next 50 years. The researchers emphasize that these are conservative estimates, which take into account only the thicker contrails that can be readily observed. Thinner contrails and contrails that have developed into natural-looking cirrus clouds also affect climate, but their impact cannot yet be predicted. Other factors that would play a role include natural cloud cover, overlapping of contrails, and size of the ice particles that form in them. They call for further research into the full extent of current contrail coverage and the specific effect of contrails in forcing climate change.

Several scientific studies have suggested that aviation may contribute to detrimental chemical changes in the atmosphere (particularly ozone content), as well as possible climate modification. The most widely accepted assessments are those conducted by United Nations (U.N.) scientific organizations. Ozone trends are monitored by the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) and the World Meteorological Organization (WMO).

Air traffic and, therefore, contrails, are not evenly distributed around the globe. They are concentrated over parts of the United States and Europe, where local warming reaches up to 0.7 watts per square meter, or 35 times the global average. The ghostly white trails following airplanes and rockets through the sky, called contrails, are probably adding to global warming, according to scientists at NASA’s Langley Research Center, Hampton, Va. The contrails often turn into cirrus clouds, a thin, wispy type of cloud made of ice crystals. The most common form of high-level clouds are thin and often wispy cirrus clouds. Typically found at heights greater than 20,000 feet (6,000 meters), cirrus clouds are composed of ice crystals that originate from the freezing of super cooled water droplets. Cirrus generally occur in fair weather and point in the direction of air movement at their elevation. While some clouds tend to help cool the globe and negate the affects of global warming, thin cirrus clouds are heat trappers, holding in more heat than they reflect back into space.....

9/28/00
Fly the Filthy Skies
http://www.shhair.org/Articles/FlyTheFilthySkies.htm

Airline travel is slowly returning to normal after last year’s terrorism shock. But there’s another reason to rethink our reliance on planes they may be the great neglected culprit in pollution and global warming.

By Roesmary Frei. Special to the Globe and Mail

When the World Trade Centre fallout hit the North American psyche and economy early last year, the airline industry suffered more than other sectors but not as much as many people expected. The International Air Transport Association (IATA) has calculated a 3-per-cent drop in passenger traffic this year, but expects a 6-per-cent rise next year and an average growth rate of about 4 per cent throughout 2006.

So, never mind turbulence, bad food and jet lag even the spectre of terrorist attack has not clouded long-term proposals for the major airlines. But the air-travel boom carry with it a significant impact that few fliers are aware of, and even fewer take into account when making vacation or business plans.

According to the Global Policy Forum, a non-governmental organization based in New York City, airplane travel is the fastest-growing source of carbon-dioxide emissions. Jet emissions currently stand at 4 per cent of the world total, according the GPF, but that contribution is expected to triple by 2015.

The good news, according to the IATA, is that the world’s air fleet now is about 65 per cent more fuel-efficient than it was in 1970, and efficiency increased by 17 per cent from 1990 to 2000. Furthermore, according to the Natural Resources Defense Council, based in Washington, D.C., Delta Airlines pilots practise reduced engine idling to the fullest extent possible before takeoff and after landing. The NRDC noted that this simple procedure can reduce ground-level air pollutants by as much as 40 per cent.

But a widely reported study this summer ironically made possible by the temporary cessation of commercial flight in the United States after the Sept. 11 2001, attacks put a damper on such optimism. Dr. David Travis and his colleagues at the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater found that during the three-day hiatus from Sept. 11 to 14, the average temperature range over the United States was more than 10 degrees (Celsius) wider than normal.

As the Globe and mail reported in August, they suggested the fluctuation was caused by the absence of jet-engine contrails (the ice-crystal streams that form around the particles expelled into the air by passing planes) during the three days of quiet skies. In regions with significant airline traffic, contrails may act like artificial cirrus clouds, preventing temperature from climbing during the day and from dropping at night.....

11/10/00
Karta G. Murty, Department of Industrial and Operations Engineering
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~murty/planetravel2/planetravel2.html

Greenhouse Gas Pollution in the Stratosphere Due to Increasing Airplane Traffic; Effects on the Environment

Abstract:

The puzzle of climate is that atmospheric and oceanic temperatures have increased much more than can be explained by changes in the concentration of greenhouse gases. We suggest that part of the reason for this phenomenon may be the increasing volume of jet airline traffic round the clock and around the globe which is contributing to higher concentrations of greenhouse gases in the stratosphere than in the whole atmosphere. This indicates that the increasing volumes of airplane traffic worldwide have serious environmental consequences, perhaps more serious than the ozone hole phenomenon on which the attention of the scientific community is riveted.....

8/15/01
Pros and Contrails
Flying the redeye may help keep the planet cooler.
http://www.nature.com/nsu/010816/010816-10.html

Taking a plane just after dawn or just before sunset could be better for the environment, according to a study of contrails - the lustrous lines of ice crystals that streak the sky in the wake of jets.

They may look benign, beautiful even, but by reflecting heat rising from the ground, contrails have a small but significant environmental impact. "Globally they have a warming effect," says atmospheric scientist Gunnar Myhre.

To what degree depends on the angle of the Sun in the sky, find Myhre and his colleague Frode Stordal, at the Norwegian Institute for Air Research in Kjeller1. Around dawn and dusk, contrails act more like reflectors, bouncing incoming sunlight back into space.

"With a shift in air traffic towards sunrise and sunset, you could decrease this impact," Myhre says.

Patrick Minnis, an atmospheric scientist at NASA's Langley Research Center in Hampton, Virginia, agrees with the pair's findings, but thinks it would be "very unrealistic" to try to squeeze more air traffic into time slots around sunrise and sunset.

Even if it were possible to regulate when planes fly, "you couldn't force contrails into persisting for just a few hours a day", he cautions.....

[halva]

10) here is the last and final question.....why do extreme chemmies run from debunkers and act like fascist little hitlers when they are challenged.......?


Gaiacomm: ITS NATURAL FOR ALL PEOPLE TO BE DEFENSIVE AND SCARED OF TRUTH. BUT THAT IS TRUE FOR BOTH SIDES NOW IS IT NOT?


Gaiacomm what on earth do you mean by this statement?

[foot_soldier]

May 2002
Spreading of isolated contrails during the 2001 air traffic shutdown
http://ams.confex.com/ams/13ac10av/10ARAM/abstracts/40538.htm

5/11/02
Shutdown of air traffic aided contrail studies
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20020511/fob1.asp

Immediately after four hijacked airliners slammed into New York's World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and a field in southwestern Pennsylvania, the Federal Aviation Administration shut down all U.S. commercial air traffic for 3 days. The unprecedented grounding of airliners enabled airports to step up security measures. At the same time, scientists stepped up to a unique opportunity to study the influence of high-flying aircraft on Earth's climate.

One way that aircraft may affect climate is through their cloud like contrails, which appear behind jets flying at high altitude. Contrails are made of ice crystals that form within seconds around the small particles present in aircraft exhaust, says David J. Travis, an atmospheric scientist at the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater. Although jet fuel produces water vapor as it burns, more than 90 percent of the ice in long-lived contrails comes from water vapor already present in the air, says Travis.

Wispy cirrus clouds are the only ones that form naturally at the high altitudes where jets cruise. These thin clouds slightly cool Earth's surface by blocking some incoming sunlight, but they moderately warm the lower atmosphere by trapping a portion of Earth's outbound infrared radiation. Scientists have suspected that contrails have similar but stronger effects.

Travis and his colleagues looked at the average diurnal temperature range (DTR)—the difference between the day's high and low temperatures—reported at more than 4,000 weather stations across the continental United States. During the 3-day hiatus of air traffic last September, the average DTR was a little over 1°C wider than normal, even though the average DTRs computed for the 3-day periods immediately before and after that period were below normal.

Furthermore, says Travis, the Pacific Northwest, the Midwest, and the Northeast—areas of the country typically blanketed with aircraft contrails in mid-September—showed the largest changes in diurnal temperature range, mostly from increased daytime high temperatures. This bolsters the argument that contrails can significantly affect climate, Travis contends. He and his colleagues will report their findings next week in Portland, Ore., at a conference of the American Meteorological Society.....

5/16/02
ANALYSIS - Europe targets aviation industry for pollution levy
http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/15983/story.htm

LONDON - Europe is moving towards slapping charges on jet fuel, the fastest growing source of greenhouse gas emissions, ending the fuel's tax-free status and raising the cost of air travel.

The new levy could add 15 euros ($13.55) to ticket prices within the European Union within three years, hitting no-frills carriers. If implemented, the charge could pave the way for a global tax on the fuel which has been exempt since the second World War to encourage the airline industry.

The EU is waiting for a report commissioned last year looking at a range of options from a straight fuel tax to a permits system that penalises polluting airlines.

"There is the political will to do something. The community wants to adopt market-based mechanisms which will yield real environmental benefits," EU senior policy adviser Michael Rossell told Reuters from Brussels.....

8/7/02
Jet contrails alter daily temperature range
http://www.psu.edu/ur/2002/jetcontrails.html

University Park, Pa. – For three days after September 11, the Federal Aviation Administration grounded commercial aircraft in the U.S., stranding travelers, hindering mail delivery and interrupting courier service, but for scientists at Penn State and the University of Wisconsin–Whitewater, the three-day shutdown provided a rare glimpse of the climate effects of jet contrails.

“In the past, some studies have compared the climate of areas with little overhead air traffic with those under heavily used flight paths,” says Dr. Andrew M. Carleton, professor of geography at Penn State. “Other studies looked at cloud cover before the advent of heavy jet traffic in the1960s and afterwards, but these studies really provide circumstantial evidence.”

Carleton, and Dr. David Travis, climatologist at University of Wisconsin-Whitewater and Ryan Laurite, then an undergraduate at UW-W, looked at high and low temperatures recorded throughout the country during the three days of commercial air shutdown and at satellite photos taken during that time. The satellite photos show where contrails were occurring, mostly absent over the U.S. between Sept 11-14, but still occurring in Canada and northern Mexico.

“We show that there was an anomalous increase in the average diurnal temperature range for the period Sept. 11-14, 2001,” the researchers reported in today’s (Aug. 8) issue of the journal Nature. “Because persisting contrails can reduce the transfer of both incoming solar and outgoing infrared radiation and so reduce the daily temperature range, we attribute at least a portion of this anomaly to the absence of contrails.”.....

2002
Reducing the climate change impacts of aviation by restricting cruise altitudes
http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGS02/01331/EGS02-A-01331.pdf

12/18/03
Ministers warned on aircraft emissions
http://www.news.scotsman.com/print.cfm?id=2313998&referringtemplate=http%3A%2F

The "hard-won gains" in reducing carbon emissions must not be sacrificed for the growth of the aviation industry, the Government was warned today.

Environmental audit committee member Labour's Colin Challen (Morley and Rothwell) urged ministers in the Commons to take a "bold and decisive" apprach to reducing aircraft emissions.

Aviation is currently responsible for 10% of the climate chnage problem.

Treasury Economic Secretary John Healy told Mr. Challen climate change projections "overstate" the potential problem.

He insisted the transport White Paper, published this week, would strike the right balance between creating additional aviation capacity and tackling the environmental consequences.....

[Bonehead9]

Foot_Soldier, you are talking about ordinary contrails

[foot_soldier]

January 2004
Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research
The Climate Change Context of the Aviation White Paper
http://www.tyndall.ac.uk/media/press_releases/pr_28.pdf

3/3/04
Jetting Toward Climate Change
http://www.climateark.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=29940

CHICAGO, Illinois, March 3, 2004 (ENS) - Commercial jet aviation has the potential to soon become the number one cause of human caused climate change, according to a professor of industrial and operations engineering at the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor.
The study by Dr. Katta Murty cautions that major increases in commercial flights and expansions of airports would not only add to greenhouse gas emissions, but could further harm the protective ozone layer that surrounds the Earth.

Current industry projections predict the world's air transportation industry could triple within two decades.

"It is an important problem to analyze at what altitudes additional releases of greenhouse gases will have maximum impact on global warming," according to Murty.

"This study also points out that the much more rapid melting of polar ice near the North Pole compared to that at the South Pole," she said, "may have been caused by the very large fraction of jet air flights in the world occurring over the northern polar region."

Murty says jet aircraft atmospheric damage is unique in that exhaust emissions from such aircraft are deposited not only in the lower atmosphere but also in the cloud forming troposphere and higher, where resulting contrails are formed and other chemicals remain to interact for decades.

According to Dr. David Travis, professor and chair, Department of Geography and Geology, University of Wisconsin-Whitewater, research "has demonstrated that jet contrails have caused substantial increases in the high cloud coverage over the most heavily trafficked regions of the United States and Europe."

Travis says these increases in high clouds have led to suppression of the temperature range causing both daytime cooling and nighttime warming in areas where contrails are most abundant.....

=====================================

3/11/04
Press Release
EUROPA [European Commission]
All provisions of the Kyoto Protocol now legally binding in the EU
http://europa.eu.int/rapid/start/cgi/guesten.ksh?p_action.gettxt=gt&doc=IP/04/322|0|RAPID&lg=EN&display=

Climate Change: All provisions of the Kyoto Protocol now legally binding in the EU

Today, a Decision of the European Parliament and the Council enters into force, which makes all the remaining requirements under the 1997 Kyoto Protocol legally binding in all Member States. The targets of the EU and its individual Member States related to emissions of greenhouse gases became binding in 2002. The new Decision relates in particular to the way in which emissions have to be monitored and reported in accordance with the Protocol. With this step, all provisions of the Kyoto Protocol have become EU law and the EU has reaffirmed its global leadership in fighting climate change and implementing the Protocol. The Kyoto Protocol to the U.N. Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) is the only international framework to combat global warming.

"Now we have adopted all the necessary EU legislation to carry out our commitments under the Kyoto protocol," said Margot Wallström, European Commissioner for the Environment. "This means that we are fully implementing this important Protocol even before it has entered into force at international level. As a strong bloc of soon-to-be 25 countries, the European Union has a special responsibility to show global leadership and pave the way for other countries to follow suit."

The Kyoto Protocol and agreements reached at subsequent Conferences of the Parties envisage strict accounting, reporting and review procedures of emissions to ensure transparency as well as a high quality and comparability of data. This is one of the elements that make the Protocol one of the most advanced, innovative and comprehensive environmental treaties in the world.

The new Decision (1) provides concrete procedures for accounting, reporting and review of emissions, replacing and widening the previous Greenhouse Gas Monitoring Mechanism Decision, which only covered requirements arising from the 1992 UNFCCC. In addition, it addresses reporting and monitoring issues related to the EU's "Burden Sharing Agreement", under which each Member State has accepted an individual target for limiting or reducing its greenhouse gas emissions when the EU ratified the Kyoto Protocol in 2002.

The new rules will allow Member States and the EU to monitor their progress towards meeting their reduction targets and, based on this, take additional measures, if necessary. The Decision also provides for the necessary co-ordination between the EU and the Member States during the UN compliance and review procedures envisaged by the Kyoto Protocol. Within the EU, the Commission has to assess progress annually and, if necessary, propose suitable measures.

Background

The Kyoto Protocol to the UNFCCC was ratified by the European Union and its Member States on 31 May 2002. To date, 121 Parties have ratified. The Kyoto Protocol commits the EU to reducing its greenhouse gas emissions by 8% below 1990 levels during the first "commitment period" 2008 to 2012. Under the "Burden-Sharing Agreement", which became legally binding for the Member States when the EU ratified the Kyoto Protocol (Council Decision 2002/358/EC of 25 April 2002), this target is shared between the 15 Member States.

The rules require that, for the Protocol to enter into force, at least 55 Parties to the UNFCCC ratify it and that those account for at least 55% of the CO2 emissions in 1990. Apart from the US, who have decided not to ratify, Russia is the only country that has not ratified yet and whose 1990 emissions would help reach the 55% threshold.

Additional information can be found at:

http://europa.eu.int/comm/environment/climat/home_en.htm

[halva]

The material that footsoldier is posting now reminds me of a point that is worth making to debunker and non-debunker alike. Since early this year, via the Guardian and BBC in particular, there has been a 'limited hangout' on the question of geoengineering and on the question of the effects of aircraft emissions on the global environment.

The Tyndall Centre of Climate Change research, in conjunction with the MIT, ran a seminar on Climate Change in January where there was discussion of geoengineering techniques including aerosol spraying as a means of mitigating climate change. The Tyndall Centre even sent a delegation to Washington to talk to President Bush about Climate Change, its urgency, and the necessity for the United States government to change its policies in relation to it.

From the viewpoint of these Climate Change scientists the activities of debunkers such as Reynolds must constitute a headache, greatly complicating the task of doing what they are currently doing: breaking the news gradually to the public about geoengineering both as future policy and as existing reality, in a way that remains under their control.

The remarks by one of the debunker morons here that footsoldier's postings concern 'ordinary contrails' and not 'chemtrails' foreshadows the problem that is going to emerge in this connection for debunkers soon.

[foot_soldier]

"halva" wrote:


From the viewpoint of these Climate Change scientists the activities of debunkers such as Reynolds must constitute a headache, greatly complicating the task of doing what they are currently doing: breaking the news gradually to the public about geoengineering both as future policy and as existing reality, in a way that remains under their control.

The remarks by one of the debunker morons here that footsoldier's postings concern 'ordinary contrails' and not 'chemtrails' foreshadows the problem that is going to emerge in this connection for debunkers soon.



BINGO

However, the issue is not necessarily limited to geo-engineering. "Ordinary contrails" have their own effect. I would think this would be becoming rather self-evident.

[halva]

Footsoldier your last point is one that Deborah at Chemtrail Central Forum has been making for some time.

By the way, I was standing in the queue at the bank this morning when my eye fell on the programme for the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens. It was not the first time I have seen it, but it brought back to mind how this programme and its highly visible advertising of 'chemtrails' is an issue that is more than ripe for exploitation.

http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=Discussion&action=display&num=1069283108

Don't know what's happened to the photograph. I'll have to see if I can get it back on-line.

Perhaps this is something for Liakopoulos to start pushing on his television programme.

[amber]

Hey, Amber, before you go running off telling the world about what a racist Bill Cooper was, maybe you had better ask his wife, who is an ethnic Chinese lady from Taiwan, or maybe their two multi-racial children. While your at it give Aaron Russo a call. He's the Jewish hollywood producer running for president as a libertarian. Aaron and Bill Cooper founded the "Constitution Party" back before the turn of the century and Bill backed Russo for President. Yeah, some kinda racist, huh?


Hey. Mrs Reynolds, with your comprehension skills, I'm surprised you can pass water let alone exams. :roll: So is it illiteracy or deliberate misrepresentation that caused you to interpret my post incorrectly?

Even a child would see that I posted a quote about William Cooper, (you know your friend is was being arrested for fraud at the time of his death), which was taken from The Fortean Times. At no point did I accuse him of being a racist. I asked if YOU shared his views. I've asked you several times if you shared ANY of his views on ANYthing.

And let's just remind ourselves of who actually threw real accusations of racism, in big bold letters, on this board....YOU, Mrs Reynolds :roll:

Nice deflection though 'Uncle Jay Jay' :roll:

[amber]

Enviroman - this is the sort of sight that makes ordinary people question what they are actually seeing.


Now what's going on here? Is the local airport having a sports day? These planes are having a race to see who can cross the finishing line first?

Are pilots having a contrail party?

Interviewing to join the Red Arrows?

Sky artists?


10:30 a.m. PDX contrails laid in patterns south to north ....counting over 12 inline on a clear blue sky. These were laid within a 10 minute period all ending at a specific coordinate

http://www.rense.com/general50/chmm.htm

[halva]

Reynolds bringing your henchmen to this forum as you have, you are not going to save either yourself or them. Your reinforcements are not reinforcing you. Their obvious lack of intelligence makes them an embarrassment even to you, and a liability. What a shame for you that you have disqualified yourself for the rest of your time on earth from having other companions.

[amber]

[amber]

Mrs Reynolds stated:


Simply said, the idea that a secret conspiracy could be currently taking place to somehow convince thousands of owners, mechanics, and pilots abuse their aircraft's engines by "Changing the fuel mixture in a jet engine to burn rich" is ludicrous

Ludicrous?


The UK Ministry of Defence admits experimenting on public - 1940-1979 ..who knows about since then? Now?
© Antony Barnett, public affairs editor
Observer.co.uk
Sunday April 21, 2002
The Ministry of Defence turned large parts of the country into a giant laboratory to conduct a series of secret germ warfare tests on the public.

A government report just released provides for the first time a comprehensive official history of Britain's biological weapons trials between 1940 and 1979.

Many of these tests involved releasing potentially dangerous chemicals and micro-organisms over vast swaths of the population without the public being told.

While details of some secret trials have emerged in recent years, the 60-page report reveals new information about more than 100 covert experiments.

The report reveals that military personnel were briefed to tell any 'inquisitive inquirer' the trials were part of research projects into weather and air pollution.

The tests, carried out by government scientists at Porton Down, were designed to help the MoD assess Britain's vulnerability if the Russians were to have released clouds of deadly germs over the country.

In most cases, the trials did not use biological weapons but alternatives which scientists believed would mimic germ warfare and which the MoD claimed were harmless. But families in certain areas of the country who have children with birth defects are demanding a public inquiry. (Of course they were ignored, like we all are now when we ask what the hell is being sprayed up in the skies over our heads that's making us all sick ..~R~)

*One chapter of the report, 'The Fluorescent Particle Trials', reveals how between 1955 and 1963 planes flew from north-east England to the tip of Cornwall along the south and west coasts, dropping huge amounts of zinc cadmium sulphide on the population. The chemical drifted miles inland, its fluorescence allowing the spread to be monitored. In another trial using zinc cadmium sulphide, a generator was towed along a road near Frome in Somerset where it spewed the chemical for an hour.

While the Government has insisted the chemical is safe, cadmium is recognised as a cause of lung cancer and during the Second World War was considered by the Allies as a chemical weapon.

In another chapter, 'Large Area Coverage Trials', the MoD describes how between 1961 and 1968 more than a million people along the south coast of England, from Torquay to the New Forest, were exposed to bacteria including e.coli and bacillus globigii , which mimics anthrax. These releases came from a military ship, the Icewhale, anchored off the Dorset coast, which sprayed the micro-organisms in a five to 10-mile radius.

The report also reveals details of the DICE trials in south Dorset between 1971 and 1975. *These involved US and UK military scientists spraying into the air massive quantities of serratia marcescens bacteria, with an anthrax simulant and phenol.

Similar bacteria were released in 'The Sabotage Trials' between 1952 and 1964. These were tests to determine the vulnerability of large government buildings and public transport to attack. In 1956 bacteria were released on the London Underground at lunchtime along the Northern Line between Colliers Wood and Tooting Broadway. The results show that the organism dispersed about 10 miles. Similar tests were conducted in tunnels running under government buildings in Whitehall.

Experiments conducted between 1964 and 1973 involved attaching germs to the threads of spiders' webs in boxes to test how the germs would survive in different environments. These tests were carried out in a dozen locations across the country, including London's West End, Southampton and Swindon. The report also gives details of more than a dozen smaller field trials between 1968 and 1977.

In recent years, the MoD has commissioned two scientists to review the safety of these tests. Both reported that there was no risk to public health, although one suggested the elderly or people suffering from breathing illnesses may have been seriously harmed if they inhaled sufficient quantities of micro-organisms.

However, some families in areas which bore the brunt of the secret tests are convinced the experiments have led to their children suffering birth defects, physical handicaps and learning difficulties.

David Orman, an army officer from Bournemouth, is demanding a public inquiry. His wife, Janette, was born in East Lulworth in Dorset, close to where many of the trials took place. She had a miscarriage, then gave birth to a son with cerebral palsy. Janette's three sisters, also born in the village while the tests were being carried out, have also given birth to children with unexplained problems, as have a number of their neighbours.

The local health authority has denied there is a cluster, but Orman believes otherwise. He said: 'I am convinced something terrible has happened. The village was a close-knit community and to have so many birth defects over such a short space of time has to be more than coincidence.'

Successive governments have tried to keep details of the germ warfare tests secret. While reports of a number of the trials have emerged over the years through the Public Records Office, this latest MoD document - which was released to Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker - gives the fullest official version of the biological warfare trials yet.

Baker said: 'I welcome the fact that the Government has finally released this information, but question why it has taken so long. It is unacceptable that the public were treated as guinea pigs without their knowledge, and I want to be sure that the Ministry of Defence's claims that these chemicals and bacteria used were safe is true.'

The MoD report traces the history of the UK's research into germ warfare since the Second World War when Porton Down produced five million cattle cakes filled with deadly anthrax spores which would have been dropped in Germany to kill their livestock. It also gives details of the infamous anthrax experiments on Gruinard on the Scottish coast which left the island so contaminated it could not be inhabited until the late 1980s. (Wait..I thought the terrorists had anthrax they could drop on us any second and we're supposed to be terrified of them? ~R~)

The report also confirms the use of anthrax and other deadly germs on tests aboard ships in the Caribbean and off the Scottish coast during the 1950s. The document states: 'Tacit approval for simulant trials where the public might be exposed was strongly influenced by defence security considerations aimed obviously at restricting public knowledge. An important corollary to this was the need to avoid public alarm and disquiet about the vulnerability of the civil population to BW [biological warfare] attack.'

Sue Ellison, spokeswoman for Porton Down, said: 'Independent reports by eminent scientists have shown there was no danger to public health from these releases which were carried out to protect the public.

'The results from these trials will save lives, should the country or our forces face an attack by chemical and biological weapons.'

Asked whether such tests are still being carried out, she said: 'It is not our policy to discuss ongoing research.'

antony.barnett@observer.co.uk

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4398507,00.html

[amber]

An FAA official in charge of air traffic control over the northeastern United States has confirmed an ongoing military operation in America's skies. In an exclusive taped interview with freelance radio reporter S. T. Brendt, the Air Traffic Control (ATC) manager said he was told on as many as four occasions in March, 2001 to re-route commercial air traffic around military aircraft taking part in an undisclosed aerial operation over the northeastern seaboard.

On her way to the interview location, Brendt observed six big jets laying brilliant white lines above a broken cloud layer. Instead of dissipating like normal condensation trails, these lingering plumes grew wider and wider, intersecting and merging.

Speaking on condition of strict anonymity as intense chemtrail activity continued overhead, this Deep Sky federal aviation source expressed concern over the classified nature of military operations repeatedly conducted at altitudes between 37,000 and 40,000 feet. While air traffic controllers normally ignore air traffic above 10,000 feet, the ATC manager said he was ordered to divert incoming European air traffic away from the military planes. When asked why, he said, "I was told there was a military exercise in the area. Of course, they wouldn't give me any of the particulars".

The initial FAA disclosure came on March 12, as mass aerial maneuvers saturated northeastern U.S. skies with Xs, circular patterns and parallel lines characteristic of chemtrail activity reported by pilots, police officers and former military personnel across the United States. Brendt contacted the FAA official after counting more than 30 big jets spreading persistent plumes within 45 minutes. Lou Aubuchont confirmed Brendt's count, noting that during his stint in U.S. Navy intelligence he had never seen a military exercise of such magnitude. After Brendt called in her sightings, assistant WMWV news director Richard Dean counted 370 chemical trails criss-crossing his nearby location for six-and-a-half hours. But local Air Traffic Controllers reported only nine commercial jets on their radars at the time. Thousands of eye-witnesses have reported similar spray activity obscuring North American skies over the past two years.

In December, 2000 Canadian aviation authority Terry Stewart investigated a Victoria caller's complaint of intensive chemtrail activity over the British Columbia capitol. In a taped message, the environmental manager for the Victoria International Airport checked with the control tower and
reported, "it's a military exercise, U.S. and Canadian air force exercise that's going on. They wouldn't give me any specifics on it".

Stewart added that he found the incident - one of hundreds reported over B.C. since the fall of 1998 - very odd.


The aircraft laying lingering X's and grids over Vancouver Island have been photo-identified as USAF KC-135 and KC-10 aerial refueling tankers. U.S. Air Force Weather Force Specialists intent on fulfilling an official USAF mission to Own The Weather refer to chemical cloud cover spread by high flying tankers as aerial obscuration. Outbreaks of acute upper respiratory and gastrointestinal illness fatigue, headaches, joint pain, dizziness, and nose bleeds have filled hospital emergency rooms across the U.S. and Canada following heavy spray days.

In November, 1999, 550 residents of the small town of Espanola, Ontario presented a petition to the Canadian government demanding an explanation and an end to aerial spraying by USAF tankers they claimed was making children and adults sick over a 55 square mile area. The Air Force denied flying tankers over Espanola. The Canadian defense ministry has yet to respond to the citizens' complaint.

On Nov. 20,1999, Brendt was admitted to hospital with a gushing nosebleed and pains in her chest after inadvertently photographing dozens of chemtrails over Parsonsfield, Maine. Nosebleeds are a common symptom of chemtrail exposure. Now I know what this is, Brendt says. I never get nosebleeds.

[amber]

Note this was filed in 1990/91.


Inventor(s): Chang; David B. , Tustin, CA
Shih; I-Fu , Los Alamitos, CA

Applicant(s): Hughes Aircraft Company, Los Angeles, CA
News, Profiles, Stocks and More about this company

Issued/Filed Dates: March 26, 1991 / April 23, 1990

Application Number: US1990000513145

IPC Class: G21K 1/00;

Class: Current: 250/505.1; 244/158.R; 250/503.1; 250/504.R;
Original: 250/505.1; 250/504.R; 250/503.1; 244/158.R;

Field of Search: 250/505.1,504 R,503.1,493.1 244/136,158 R


Abstract:
:
A method is described for reducing atmospheric or global warming resulting from the presence of
heat-trapping gases in the atmosphere, i.e., from the greenhouse effect. Such gases are relatively
transparent to sunshine, but absorb strongly the long-wavelength infrared radiation released by the
earth. The method incudes the step of seeding the layer of heat-trapping gases in the atmosphere
with particles of materials characterized by wavelength-dependent emissivity. Such materials
include Welsbach materials and the oxides of metals which have high emissivity (and thus low
reflectivities) in the visible and 8-12 micron infrared wavelength regions.
Attorney, Agent, or Firm: Sales; Michael W.; Denson-Low; Wanda; Primary/Assistant Examiners:
Berman; Jack I.;


U.S. References: Show the 2 patents that reference this one Patent Issued Inventor(s) Applicant(s) Title
US3222675* 12 /1965 Schwartz
US4755673 7 /1988 Pollack et al. Hughes Aircraft Company Selective thermal radiators
* some details unavailable

First Claim: Show all 18 claims
What is claimed is:
1. A method of reducing atmospheric warming due to the greenhouse effect resulting from a layer of
gases in the atmosphere which absorb strongly near infrared wavelength radiation, comprising
the step of dispersing tiny particles of a material within the gases' layer, the particle material
characterized by wavelength-dependent emissivity or reflectivity, in that said material has high
emissivities with respect to radiation in the visible and far infrared wavelength spectra, and low
emissivity in the near infrared wavelength spectrum, whereby said tiny particles provide a means
for converting infrared heat energy into far infrared radiation which is radiated into space.




THE WELSBACH PATENT-- In 1991, a practical patent for “stratospheric Welsbach seeding for reduction of global warming” was filed by the Hughes aircraft company. Besides reflecting incoming sunlight, Welsbach materials are oxides of metals that convert heat trapped by greenhouse gases near the surface of the earth into far-infrared wavelengths that radiate into space. The Hughes patent suggests that these very tiny metal flakes could be “added to the fuel of jet airliners, so that the particles would be emitted from the jet engine exhaust while the airliner was at its cruising altitude.” Aluminum oxide can withstand temperatures far higher than jet engine exhausts. While highly abrasive in larger sizes, a former engineer for Alcoa aluminum says that aluminum in the 10 to 100 micron sizes called for in the sunscreen patent would simply polish jet turbine blades without harming them. The engineer added that this “very fine, talcum-like” aluminum powder would appear as a “pure white plume” in the sky.

[amber]

Mrs Reynolds wrote:


The result would have been a catastrophe, she would have become a laughingstock, like Dennis Kucinich. Didn't take long for him to 'see the light', now did it?

BUT



Congress Addresses Chemtrails
On October 2, 2001, Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) introduced the "Space Preservation Act of 2001" (HR 2977), which called for the elimination of "exotic weaponry" from space. Among the weapons to be banned were weather-modifying weapons such as HAARP (High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program) and chemtrails. Though HR 3616 was later amended to remove the section that would have banned chemtrails, the original bill acknowledging the existence of chemtrail technology remains on the pages of the Congressional Record.

[amber]

Ohio is the home of Wright-Patterson – the air force base working with electromagnetic and weather modification technology. A scientist working at Wright-Pat recently told reporter Bob Fitrakis that two different projects are being conducted. One involves cloud creation experiments to lessen the effect of global warming. Other chemtrails are connected with the military’s extremely high-power Radio Frequency beam weapon in Alaska called HAARP. “The scientist claims that the two most common substances being sprayed into chemtrails are aluminum oxide and barium stearate. When you see planes flying back and forth marking parallel lines, X-patterns and grids in a clear sky, that’s aluminum oxide, according to the scientist. The goal is to create an artificial sunscreen to reflect solar radiation back into space to alleviate global warming. In some cases, barium may be sprayed in a similar manner for the purpose of “high-tech 3-D radar imaging.” (Columbus Alive Dec. 6, 2001) HR2977 HR2977 is creating a “buzz” in the Air Traffic Control community. Introduced last October by Ohio Rep. Dennis Kucinich, this bill called for the peaceful uses of space, and a ban on “exotic weapons”. Section 7 of the “Space Preservation Act of 2001” sought specifically to prohibit “chemtrails”. Kucinich recently told the Columbus Alive newspaper (Jan. 24, 2002) that despite official denials, as head of the Armed Services oversight committee he is well acquainted with chemtrail projects. “The truth is there’s an entire program in the Department of Defense, ‘Vision for 2020,’ that’s developing these weapons,” Kucinich told reporter Bob Fitrakis. The U.S. Space Command’s 2020 vision calls for “dominance” of space, land, sea and air. Though “section vii” naming chemtrails, HAARP and other planet-threatening weapons has since been removed in a substitute bill - “under pressure” according to Kucinich - the original bill remains intact and on-file in the congressional record. CONTRAILS VS CHEMTRAILS The unusual white plumes reported by Air Canada pilots, police officers and former military personnel over Canada and the U.S. during the past three years are often contrasted by brief, pencil-thin contrails left by commercial jets flying above them. Contrails form when water vapor clumps around dirt particles acting as nuclei. According to NASA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, contrails can only form at temperatures below minus 76 degrees, and humidity levels of 70 percent or more. Even in ideal conditions, contrails rarely last more than 20 minutes. But atmospheric studies by NASA and NOAA - including TARFOX, ACE-Asia, ACE-I and II, INDOEX and Project SUCCESS - confirm that artificial clouds and contrails can be manufactured under conditions of low humidity by dispensing particles from aircraft. The smaller the size of the nuclei introduced into the atmosphere, the greater the rate of artificial cloud formation. Controllers across the United States know from their professional training that these chemicals fall to the ground. Without exception they expressed their concern to Deep Sky about possible risks to human health, “They want to know what the heck is in there,” S.T. Brendt reported. “One of them said, ‘Aluminum or barium – that’s not something you want to be breathing.’” Over the last few months, the controller have been told that the troubling aerial operations involve “climate experiments”.

[halva]

How to get to the Olympic Games cheaply:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4481821

[jayreynolds]

Kucinich had over 24 hours of free time on national TV over the past six months. never mentioned chemtrails. This is from the largest newspaper in his home district.

Cleveland Plain Dealer
March 9, 2003

Many Kucinich backers are out there - way out


"Kucinich's willingness to listen to non-main stream groups has created some controversy.

For instance, in his original 2001 bill to ban the use of weapons in space, Kucinich listed a series of weapons that should be outlawed.

The list went beyond the interceptor missiles and subatomic particle beams often associated with government's "Star Wars" programs.

His bill banned "other energies" directed at individuals or targeted groups for the purpose of "mood management or mind control." It also banned "chemtrails."

The term chemtrails is part of a conspiracy theory that has been at the center of lively Internet chat room debates and radio talk shows.

Its supporters believe the white streaks jets leave in the sky - known as contrails, which are formed by condensed water vapors - are actually toxic substances the government is spraying on people.

After being questioned about the bill last year, Kucinich rewrote it, removing the controversial language

"I'm not into that," he insisted. "Understand me. When I found out that was in there, I said, Look, I'm not interested in going there.' "
http://www.kucinich.com/Way%20Out%20There.htm

[Bonehead9]

The material that footsoldier is posting now reminds me of a point that is worth making to debunker and non-debunker alike. Since early this year, via the Guardian and BBC in particular, there has been a 'limited hangout' on the question of geoengineering and on the question of the effects of aircraft emissions on the global environment.

The Tyndall Centre of Climate Change research, in conjunction with the MIT, ran a seminar on Climate Change in January where there was discussion of geoengineering techniques including aerosol spraying as a means of mitigating climate change. The Tyndall Centre even sent a delegation to Washington to talk to President Bush about Climate Change, its urgency, and the necessity for the United States government to change its policies in relation to it.

From the viewpoint of these Climate Change scientists the activities of debunkers such as Reynolds must constitute a headache, greatly complicating the task of doing what they are currently doing: breaking the news gradually to the public about geoengineering both as future policy and as existing reality, in a way that remains under their control.

The remarks by one of the debunker morons here that footsoldier's postings concern 'ordinary contrails' and not 'chemtrails' foreshadows the problem that is going to emerge in this connection for debunkers soon.


So. does any of this prove that Chemtrails exist?


NO!


You are a moron to think that you are actually winning in this debate.


BTW I noticed that someone tried to start a chemtrails thread over on the Curent Events forum here and was prety quickly ridiculed by the members of this forum.

[amber]

Kucinich recently told the Columbus Alive newspaper (Jan. 24, 2002) that despite official denials, as head of the Armed Services oversight committee he is well acquainted with chemtrail projects.

Notice he says DESPITE OFFICIAL DENIALS and that his source for the 'chemtrail projects' is the Armed Services oversight committee!
NOT the internet; not 'non-main stream groups' BUT the Armed Services oversight committee


“The truth is there’s an entire program in the Department of Defense, ‘Vision for 2020,’ that’s developing these weapons,” Kucinich told reporter Bob Fitrakis. The U.S. Space Command’s 2020 vision calls for “dominance” of space, land, sea and air.

The truth....is there in the DOD Vision for 2020....not the truth is there on the net and on conspiracy sites.


The reason for his comments in your post is as CLEAR AS CRYSTAL:


Though “section vii” naming chemtrails, HAARP and other planet-threatening weapons has since been removed in a substitute bill - “under pressure” according to Kucinich - the original bill remains intact and on-file in the congressional record

Under pressure... Now who would apply that pressure? And why?
Kucinich clearly states his sources and they do not include the internet...Ordinary people will have to question why he suddenly back-peddaled and make their own minds up.

[jayreynolds]

halva wrote;
"By the way, I was standing in the queue at the bank this morning when my eye fell on the programme for the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens. It was not the first time I have seen it, but it brought back to mind how this programme and its highly visible advertising of 'chemtrails' is an issue that is more than ripe for exploitation.

http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=Discussion&action=display&num=1069283108

Don't know what's happened to the photograph. I'll have to see if I can get it back on-line.

Perhaps this is something for Liakopoulos to start pushing on his television programme.

Halva you chemmie moron. You simply can't avoid making all your buddies look stupid, well maybe that's because they are!

Your skywriting picture was made by these guys at the olympics in Atlanta.
http://www.skytypers.com/skywriting.html

"Skywriting is a single plane twisting and turning at an altitude of about 10,000 feet emitting a biodegradable trail of vapor to form spectacular letters and symbols in the sky.

Among their many accomplishments they have participated in the Opening Ceremonies of the 1984 OLYMPICS by skywriting the Olympic symbol, of 5 interlocking rings overhead"

[halva]

Liakopoulos can decide whether he wants to use it on his television programme, and if so how.

I think he should. It would be a good conversation opener.

And he could even quote Uncle Jay's viewpoint so as to introduce you to Greek audiences.

If it turns out that you are right, you could get some good P.R. out of that, and you might even be able to plead for a reduction in sentence.

By the way thanks for telling us where the rings are from. I was thinking of going to Olympic Committee here to ask, and they may not have known.

[jayreynolds]

I'm way ahead of you, dearie.


amber quoted:
"Kucinich recently told the Columbus Alive newspaper (Jan. 24, 2002) that despite official denials, as head of the Armed Services oversight committee he is well acquainted with chemtrail projects

Got that one wrong, too, amber. Why do you chemmie morons never get anything right?

Kucinich was never head of the Armed Services Oversight Committee.

amber quoted:
'“The truth is there’s an entire program in the Department of Defense, ‘Vision for 2020,’ that’s developing these weapons,” Kucinich told reporter Bob Fitrakis. The U.S. Space Command’s 2020 vision calls for “dominance” of space, land, sea and air. "

As a proud citizen of the most powerful nation in the world, I am pleased
that my nation would have 'dominance' of space, land, sea, and air.

amber wrote:
"Under pressure... Now who would apply that pressure? And why?
Kucinich clearly states his sources and they do not include the internet...Ordinary people will have to question why he suddenly back-peddaled and make their own minds up."

I called Kucinich's office and told them that if he didn't take it out of the bill, It would become a campaign issue that would make him look foolish.
His aide told me she knew they were simply ordinary contrails. He refused comment, and my suggestion that he create a press release distancing himself from the hoax. No members of the "chemtrail" cult had enough faith to camp out and protest against his action. So much for 'activism', huh?
=================

"If you think Kucinich doesn't have some dirt around to get smeared, think again. I must wonder what the RNC backrom boys could make of his promotion of "chemtrails" in HR 2977? "Chemtrails", in case you haven't heard, is a hoax that claims jet contrails are actually military planes spraying poisonouschemicals across the world for various nefarious purposes.

It seems that Dennyboy either believes the hoax or doesn't read the bills he sponsors. Yes, the "chemtrails" reference was removed in the later version of the bill- The Space Preservation Act.

Yes, could be a very interesting debate comeback for Dubya in a pinch.

5- Posted by: Jay Reynolds on June 11, 2003 11:52 PM"

http://www.nathannewman.org/log/archives/000815.shtml

=================
Actually, not just me, sweetie.

"Moonbow learned of this today when I called Congressman Kucinich's office in Ohio and asked for a definition of the word "chemtrails" as it appears in HR 2977 bill that was submitted to Congress on October 2, 2001. I was told that I was the first person to call about the wording of that bill and also the first person to ask about the word "chemtrails" in it. Apparently, the Congressman's office is not aware that Chemtrails are a large phenomena on the internet and it appeared that no one in his office knew anything about what a "chemtrail" actually was!"
http://www.moonbowmedia.com/ei/ct/hr2977.htm
===============
If the truth ever comes out, it will be found that Carol Rosin(LSD guru) and Anthony Webre(manic-depressive) of ICIS(strange acronym-double entendre) wrote HR2977 and slipped "chemtrails" into a bill about space based weapons. When it became clear the items mentioned were internet hoaxes, they were dropped from the bill.
Jay

[jayreynolds]

halva,
Liakopoulos will soon have to defend himself against me in Greece.

What's that, you never dreamed you would be opposed, you thought I could do nothing? You are not dealing with a chemmie moron here, you stupid little fool.

I am in contact with anti-LAOS(People's Orthodox Alarm) organizations and legitimate scientists who are receptive about exposing the chemtrails hoax over there. When it happens, it will be too late take back all the foolishness you people have been putting out.

The people of Greece are fed up with Rellos, Papathemelis, Karatzaferis, Leokopoulos, and all the other junta lovers, chauvinist demagogues, and Byzantium Orthodox fascists like Wayne Hall. Greek scientists are appalled
at the way you have made a mockery of their credibility as they seek to be accepted as EU members.

I'm taking the fight to your door, Wayne. When it comes, you will be massacred by the truth.

Prepare yourself to be exposed, Wayne Hall.

[amber]

Subcommittee on National Security, Emerging Threats and International Relations (Committee on Government Reform): Jurisdiction includes matters relating to the Departments of Defense, State and Justice.
Republicans
Christopher Shays (CT), Chrm.
Michael Turner (OH), V. Chrm.
Dan Burton (IN)
Steven LaTourette (OH)
Ron Lewis (KY)
Todd Platts (PA)
Adam Putnam (FL)
Ed Schrock (VA)
John Duncan, Jr. (TN)
Tim Murphy (PA)
William Janklow (SD)
Democrats
Dennis Kucinich (OH), Ranking Member
Tom Lantos (CA)
Bernard Sanders (VT)
Stephen Lynch (MA)
Carolyn Maloney (NY)
Linda Sanchez (CA)
C.A. Dutch Ruppersberger (MD)
Chris Bell (TX)
John Tierney (MA)

http://66.102.11.104/search?q=cache:lB5ax_Uz0_IJ:www.house.gov/kucinich/press/russia.html+Dennis+Kucinich+armed+services+oversig ht+committee&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Increasing the significance of the trip for Rep. Kucinich is the fact that he was recently elected as the ranking member of the National Security subcommittee of the Government Oversight Committee.



'“The truth is there’s an entire program in the Department of Defense, ‘Vision for 2020,’ that’s developing these weapons,” Kucinich told reporter Bob Fitrakis. The U.S. Space Command’s 2020 vision calls for “dominance” of space, land, sea and air. "


If the truth ever comes out, it will be found that Carol Rosin(LSD guru) and Anthony Webre(manic-depressive) of ICIS(strange acronym-double entendre) wrote HR2977 and slipped "chemtrails" into a bill about space based weapons

Grounds for libel there I believe Mrs Reynolds, I shall follow your example and contact these people straightaway.
Did they also mangage to slip chemtrails in to the DOD Vision for 2020?





I called Kucinich's office and told them that if he didn't take it out of the bill, It would become a campaign issue that would make him look foolish.


I think you over-estimate your significance you horrible little man :wink:

[gaiacomm]

Amber:

I like your photos and the way you respond to others rather than react!

Keep up the good work! Real good info...you and Halava and others are educating quite well!

[gaiacomm]

10) here is the last and final question.....why do extreme chemmies run from debunkers and act like fascist little hitlers when they are challenged.......?


Gaiacomm: ITS NATURAL FOR ALL PEOPLE TO BE DEFENSIVE AND SCARED OF TRUTH. BUT THAT IS TRUE FOR BOTH SIDES NOW IS IT NOT?


Gaiacomm what on earth do you mean by this statement?

Halva:

Just what it says. Its not an attack on any side but a statement to for both sides to understand that their are differences and that sometimes makes people afraid of truth.

The silly statement about hitler and all by the little is why he is a little man.

And Jay is afraid that I will post his truth for all to see. Its amazing what money can buy!

[gaiacomm]

Hmmm is this true?



My Public Files | My Other Posts | My Profile | Email Me Post # 1423
markdavey
New Member
12 Posts
Status: Hidden
Registered Aug 2003
04/11/2002 Entry: "Death Rays from California"
If you read one article today, read this one. Apparently a reporter at Wired "hacked" into the public email account for the Iraqi regime:

It's not clear whether Saddam uses e-mail or even knows how to operate a personal computer. But scores of people write to him each week at press@uruklink.net, the e-mail address listed on the official homepage of the Iraqi presidency since at least October 2000.

Messages sent to the account, Iraq's version of president@whitehouse.gov, run the gamut from fawning solicitations for autographed photos and media interviews to obscene death threats.

The e-mails sent to press@uruklink.net were obtained earlier this month by first clicking on a link labeled "Check your e-mail in Uruk" on the homepage of Iraq's state-controlled ISP, Uruklink.net, then guessing the login name and password -- both of which were the same five-letter word.

The... "best" part of the article are descriptions of messages from people offering to sell products, services or intelligence that will help the dictator in his fight against America. Some of these are most likely jokes or frauds, but the great state of California has cooked up a beauty:

On Aug. 16, the CEO of a California wireless technology-maker e-mailed Saddam to request a meeting. According to the CEO's message, the two could discuss "technology improvements and exporting of rich technology abroad."

In a press release dated Sept. 13, the company said it has developed "4G" wireless technology capable of being used "as a weapon to ignite large sections of the atmosphere and incinerate all living creatures within its pre-selected coordinates." The press release also called for the resignation of President Bush.

The press release in question reads like a ransom note written in magazine clippings -- ripe with comments such as "Remember; always tell the truth that way you have nothing to remember!" and the generous offer to "ad significant value to the geo-political arena and ad it selfishly."

After taking several deep breaths to squelch the giggles I notice that the release was authored by one Judah Ben-Hur at gaiacomm@att.net. Who is Giacomm? Certainly appears to be the company described in the Wired article, a bona fide California C Corporation with grand plans for "4G" wireless technology. After a stimulating tour of their web site I see that they are indeed working on an "Ionosphere enhancement" program that would let you use your cell phone to call from Los Angeles to Timbuktu without using any satellite technology. And oh yes, it would also let you turn any corner of the planet into cozy corner of hell:

Geomagnetic-field aligned ionization to control the reflection/scattering properties of radio waves will result in a number of outcomes. It will jam unwanted signals, make data stealth, and focus RF signals to localized areas to selectively ignite the surrounding atmosphere, which will create a flash burn effect. This effect will incinerate all air and ground living and non-living entities. In short, a military weapon of unprecedented proportions with no nuclear radiation generated aftereffects. This device can use the surrounding atmospheric layers to burn off everything in its path without firing a single shot


I have images of dialing "*666" into my cel phone, punching in some GPS coordinates and waiting for the news on CNN.

But don't worry, the folks at GaiaComm appear to be a good bunch of patriots. This, from their 9/11/2002 press release:

GAIACOMM CORPORATION is appalled and furiously angered by this terrorist and his accomplices... How can words express sympathy for these families left behind? Honestly, they cannot. However, GAIACOMM CORPORATION declares this day to all the families and relatives that its 4G wireless technology is going to be modified to become an anchor in the defense of America, so that terrorism can be halted. We dedicate our technology as a Technology for Peace in this decade.

Let it be known this day that we are modifying the Gaiacomm technology to become an arcane military incineration weapon, and its use is to thwart all terrorists who even hint of posing a threat to America or her allies.

But that was then... and more recently they've tried to pawn off their death ray to China, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Palestine, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Israel.

And in case there was any misunderstanding, "We are not terrorists but scientists attempting to use our technology for peace but http://www.crazysaddam.com/archives/00000028.shtml


http://forums.orgonite.com/All%20Other%20Issues/7575/


You sir, are a nut with delusions of granduer


Answer:

I have no control over people who tamper with information. But again I take no defense. Only if I am quoted directly and it is changed.
And I see you have taken info from peoples comments.

And since you got it from the internet I guess it is a true cut and paste!

Gee I am sure their is more....bring it all in if you dare!

[gaiacomm]

Jay:

I will attempt to answer your questions, and then you go AWAY or I will have to tell on you!


1.Do you have a background in a technical field?YES, PHYSICS If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? MANY SCIENTIST IF THEY COULD REMAIN CLOAKEDIf no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not? THERE ARE MANY SCIENTIST THAT WOULD SUPPORT IF ONE WOULD COME FORWARD!

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? VARIOUS WEBSITES AND CLASSIFIED KNOWLEDGE If none can be relied upon, why not? MOST OF THE INFO YOU SEEK IS CLASSIFIED!...NSA!!!! AND OTHERS.

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences?NO, BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT A FORUM FOR THAT If not, why not? BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE IS CLASSIFIED!

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"? A IMBALANCE OF THE BIOSPHERE CAUSED BY MANMADE EMISSIONS AND INJECTIONS BY CHEMICALS AND OTHER BY PRODUCT EXHAUSTS INTO THE AIR, LAND AND SEA.

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not? DO A SEARCH ON THE INTERNET!

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails? THE CHEMICAL STRING IS DIFFERENT.

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails? WHAT IS PUBLIC AND WHAT IS NOT!

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"? NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT..PLEASE PROVIDE!

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information? NO MORE THAN YOU BEING A SOURCE!
_________________

[gaiacomm]

Debunkers:


Well your futile attempts to discredit and sway opinion about me is old news. I am here to stay not here on this forum but in the real world where people meet face to face and their is no place to hide.

I admit I am not your average scientist but then again that is because of what I know. I am not perfect by no means but I know that I am not stupid.

Some think I am Lance and have labeled me other names.

You all have information you can get on Gaiacomm on the internet. And thats ok! There is nothing to hide!

But I know that none of you carries a security clearance of any value.

You would not even post here because of the threat of losing it and other warnings.

As for me I have already past the point of no return.

I have tired of the lies and mis-leading statements made by my peers and friends. Taking a stand for what is right is also precieved as a ego, insane, crazy motive.

I guess that is what happend to the individuals that plotted to seperate from England in 1776!

But that was history right? And Bill Gates with IBM, Tesla, Faraday, Maxwell, Di Vinci, Martin Luther King, Womens rights leaders and so many others that decided to stand up and change the course of history by question and solution. And gee to help us all!

Its easy to point fingers and point out a problem but to discover a solution and then changing it is even more difficult but not impossible.

Chemtrails is a real issue and needs to be addressed. People are afraid of truth as shown with the death of Jesus and others for whatever reasons.

What has happened to America? Passive sheep that just follow anyone, anywhere...and then bitch when things don't go their way. But still stand on a hill and throw stones at people and then run and hide.

Be glad of the internet because it allows lonely people to communicate with others, and unfortunatly predators of all kinds to flourish.

Label me what you want but at least I am doing something to change my way of life!

[liakopoulos]

There is no substitude for experience. I didn't even have to see or hear you Raynolds. I saw you coming all the way .Tell your zionist boss that we'll try to pile information on chemtrails here at Arriana's instead of wasting our time with you. PS. Try to stop or limit your insults to everybody.

[gaiacomm]

There is no substitude for experience. I didn't even have to see or hear you Raynolds. I saw you coming all the way .Tell your zionist boss that we'll try to pile information on chemtrails here at Arriana's instead of wasting our time with you. PS. Try to stop or limit your insults to everybody.


I agree!

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Its expected the type answer from ones that are ingnorant of their own ignorance!

Well Gaia you seem to be a sucker for punishment,and I'm bored ,so in light of my boredom and your stupidity
in underestimating my supposed ....as you say,Ignorance lets debate something with meaning.

1) What is your motives and what drives you to keep promoting the chemtrail hoax......?
2)Geo-engineering is not a hoax,What is the goal of geo-engineering...?
3)What part of the political spectrum do you currently reside....?
4) Would you call yourself an activist Gaia......?
5) Where are your whisle blowers.....5 years and no whistle blowers.
6) Who is reaping great profit from this hoax......?
7) What group Politically has everything to gain and nothing to lose by this hoax.
8)Why is there not one Scientist willing to go that extra mile to prove or disprove this hoax....?
9)Why in the last 3 years has every anti-nwo/survivalist/etc.....etc....etc...
picked up on the chemtrails hoax and now use them as a main theme of their hate sites......and their anti-establishment propaganda,but when questioned .....run back to their insulated enviroments and hide from scrutiny....as Halva has done time and time again.......?


10) here is the last and final question.....why do extreme chemmies run from debunkers and act like fascist little hitlers when they are challenged.......?


Answer all of these questions Truthfully.........Or are you going to take the Easy way out and run to the hills like Halva and so many others have done............In other words ......do you have any balls to stand by your convictions......to the end.......or are you just like The Mech's and Halva's of the world..... all mouth no brains.......?[/list]




Answer:
) What is your motives and what drives you to keep promoting the chemtrail hoax......? I HAVE NO MOTIVE OR HIDDEN AGENDA, I JUST KNOW AS A PHYSICIST THAT CHEMTRAILS CAN BE CAUSED BY SOME OF THE CLAIMS OF THE ADVOCATES. IT IS NOT A HOAX BUT A WELL PLANNED EXAMPLE OF HOW SCIENCE AND BUSINESS CAN DO WHATEVER THEY PLEASE AND IF MISTAKES ARE MADE SO WHAT...SUE THEM!
2)Geo-engineering is not a hoax,What is the goal of geo-engineering...? TO PROMOTE SCIENCES THAT DEAL WITH CHANGING THE ENVIRONMENT TO FIT THE NEEDS OF FEW AND NOT THE MANY. AND A METHOD TO PROMOTE NEW TECHNOLOGIES TO EITHER CURE THE ENVIRONMENT SLOW IT DOWN OR EVEN CHANGE IT PERMANTLEY.
3)What part of the political spectrum do you currently reside....? I BELIEVE IN FREEDOM FOR ALL PEOPLE NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE...PATRIOT. WOMEN ARE EQUAL AS WELL!
4) Would you call yourself an activist Gaia......? YES
5) Where are your whisle blowers.....5 years and no whistle blowers. EITHER IN JAIL, PAID OFF, OR DEAD!
6) Who is reaping great profit from this hoax......? EVRYONE ON ALL SIDES!
7) What group Politically has everything to gain and nothing to lose by this hoax. NO GROUP...THEY ALL WORK COLLECTIVLEY!
8)Why is there not one Scientist willing to go that extra mile to prove or disprove this hoax....? BECAUSE OF EGO AND POSTION WITHIN THE ACADEMIA.
9)Why in the last 3 years has every anti-nwo/survivalist/etc.....etc....etc...
picked up on the chemtrails hoax and now use them as a main theme of their hate sites......and their anti-establishment propaganda,but when questioned .....run back to their insulated enviroments and hide from scrutiny....as Halva has done time and time again.......? I DON'T KNOW, ASK THEM!


10) here is the last and final question.....why do extreme chemmies run from debunkers and act like fascist little hitlers when they are challenged.......? ITS NATURAL FOR ALL PEOPLE TO BE DEFENSIVE AND SCARED OF TRUTH. BUT THAT IS TRUE FOR BOTH SIDES NOW IS IT NOT?

THE ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS ARE MY OPINION ONLY BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE AND FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE.

I HOPE THIS BEGINS A NEW BRIDGE TO EXCHANGE INFORMATION WITH EACH OTHER TO HELP US BOTH UNDERSTAND!

[gaiacomm]

Jay:

I will attempt to answer your questions, and then you go AWAY or I will have to tell on you!


1.Do you have a background in a technical field?YES, PHYSICS If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? MANY SCIENTIST IF THEY COULD REMAIN CLOAKEDIf no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not? THERE ARE MANY SCIENTIST THAT WOULD SUPPORT IF ONE WOULD COME FORWARD!

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? VARIOUS WEBSITES AND CLASSIFIED KNOWLEDGE If none can be relied upon, why not? MOST OF THE INFO YOU SEEK IS CLASSIFIED!...NSA!!!! AND OTHERS.

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences?NO, BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT A FORUM FOR THAT If not, why not? BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE IS CLASSIFIED!

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"? A IMBALANCE OF THE BIOSPHERE CAUSED BY MANMADE EMISSIONS AND INJECTIONS BY CHEMICALS AND OTHER BY PRODUCT EXHAUSTS INTO THE AIR, LAND AND SEA.

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not? DO A SEARCH ON THE INTERNET!

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails? THE CHEMICAL STRING IS DIFFERENT.

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails? WHAT IS PUBLIC AND WHAT IS NOT!

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"? NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT..PLEASE PROVIDE!

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information? NO MORE THAN YOU BEING A SOURCE!
_________________

[liakopoulos]

Who is giving you your infos Jay? Is it the MOSSAD? Let me give you a piece of advise. They are useless. Let me give you some info too. I am anti-LAOS . You are dangerously ignorant.

[gaiacomm]

Jay,

I am sending you a PM for you to review first. If you wish me to post it let me know or you can. I would prefer if you did!

I told you sometimes its not nice to fool with mother nature!

[liakopoulos]

Are you coming to Greece Jay? Oh God, I am terryfied! How shall I defend myself against a collosal scientiest like you?

[liakopoulos]

What can someone do if he has:a) an ELF modulated 10 gigawatt source. b)a flat cloud containing aluminium oxiede particles at an altitude of 30000 feet ,somewhere where he can clearly see it c)a zionist boss with a perverted mind.

[Bonehead9]

What can someone do if he has:a) an ELF modulated 10 gigawatt source. b)a flat cloud containing aluminium oxiede particles at an altitude of 30000 feet ,somewhere where he can clearly see it c)a zionist boss with a perverted mind.

I personally would be wondering why those aluminum oxide particles were not showing up on the local weather or ATC radar screens.

Why is that?

Why don’t they show up?

What about on the military radars?

What do you think that the Turkish military would think if they saw a large cloud of radar reflective particles over Greece? Or are you going to suggest that the Greek and the Turkish military are both conspiring together on this?

[Enviroman]

I admit to being rather confused by the metholology utilized among people here. When I have submitted scientific lab reports and field data, there is never word about politics, conjecture, emotions, feelings, perceptions. Its just data, and possibly a hard conclusion based strictly on the data, samples, measurements. But no mentions of Jews, Mossad, Arabs, feelings, what I think of other people, my own political beliefs, etc.
I sometimes include specific locations, elevations and geographic measurements, backing up by mapping also. But typically especially in environmental testing, documentation is a must, as is following prescribed protocols for sample gathering and testing.

And that is how scientific investigations and experiments work. I still think as many people out there that share the "Chemtrail" belief, there has to be someone with some definitive photo or lab analysis supporting it.

[liakopoulos]

Who says that they tell the public ,what they see on their radar screens?

[Enviroman]

I think it is possible to get tours of places to do air traffic control. Maybe someone can be at a radar facility at a tour, in communication with someone who is outside, looking at the sky.

I dont think FAA radar controllers have to have a Top Secret Clearance or anything, so just lumping them into a conspiracy because of conjecture, is not helpful. Lets stay with what we know and have data of. But we cant just create a new conspiracy each time to explain something we do not know.

[Bonehead9]

Who says that they tell the public ,what they see on their radar screens?

You can find real time images of weather radar all over the internet.

Furthermore you are implying that all of the ATC, Weather service, and every two bit disgruntled radar jockey in the service is in on the conspiracy.

In fact, under your logic, everyone in the world is in on it except you.


OOOPs, I was not supposed to tell you that. :D

[Bonehead9]

I admit to being rather confused by the metholology utilized among people here. When I have submitted scientific lab reports and field data, there is never word about politics, conjecture, emotions, feelings, perceptions. Its just data, and possibly a hard conclusion based strictly on the data, samples, measurements. But no mentions of Jews, Mossad, Arabs, feelings, what I think of other people, my own political beliefs, etc.
I sometimes include specific locations, elevations and geographic measurements, backing up by mapping also. But typically especially in environmental testing, documentation is a must, as is following prescribed protocols for sample gathering and testing.

And that is how scientific investigations and experiments work. I still think as many people out there that share the "Chemtrail" belief, there has to be someone with some definitive photo or lab analysis supporting it.


Believe me, Enviroman, the Chemtrails hoax has nothing to do whatsoever with science and everything to do with paranoia.

Notice how the various supporters of this theory present themselves as "heros" for their crusade against this so-called conspiracy?

These people also believe in zero point energy, scalar weapons, crop circles, UFO's, planet X, Atlantis, New Age Crystal b.s, you name it.

[letxa2000]

These people also believe in zero point energy, scalar weapons, crop circles, UFO's, planet X, Atlantis, New Age Crystal b.s, you name it.

Sounds kind of like the checklist of beliefs that the Ghostbusters had when interviewing a new employee. :)

[jayreynolds]

When Jewish scientists inside Greece challenge Liakopoulos with the twelve deadly questions on ET-1, will he be happy he had a chance to try out his answers here, or sad when he is left speechless in front of the camera?.

NOW ANSWER THE QUESTIONS "PROFESSOR", OR CAN YOU ONLY PLAGIARIZE THE WORK OF WILLIAM THOMAS?

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. Upon what evidence did you conclude that 4000 Jews were warned to stay home from work at the world trade center on 9/11?

11. If you shake hands with a Greek, should you count your fingers afterwards?

[amber]

Bonehead9 wrote:
These people also believe in zero point energy, scalar weapons, crop circles, UFO's, planet X, Atlantis, New Age Crystal b.s, you name it.

letxa2000 wrote:
Sounds kind of like the checklist of beliefs that the Ghostbusters had when interviewing a new employee.

How do you follow such a well thought out post...hang on...my three year old neice shares your sense of humour and repartee..may be you can chew the fat with her later?

'These people'... is a bit of a generalisation isn't it? Not very scientific, seeing as you were responding to evionman's confusion about lack of hard data :? Got the stats?

You have no idea who people are on the net, let alone what they believe in, so your 'checklist' ('ghostbusters'..still splitting my sides at that one :roll: ) is again a biased assumption and not very scientific, which WAS what you were criticising 'these people' about wasn't it?

One person we DO know about, though, is your friend Jay and his friend William Cooper....just in case you'd forgotten:


he could confirm "150 per cent" of the ‘Lear Hypothesis’; a paper by John Lear containing allegations of the US Government’s alliance with ETs who, in exchange for advanced alien technology, were ‘allowed’ to abduct unwilling human subjects for experimentation and the harvesting of biological material

[jayreynolds]

Honey, you need to take a serious look at ICIS Webre and Carol Rosin. SHE is the one that brags about all her drug induced years on LSD with Timothy Leary, even traffiking in LSD overseas. Webre's wife wrote all about how he has suffered from manic-depression throughout his adult life, and spent many years as acult member following a madman who claimed to be god. These things are public record in their own statements.

These are the sorts of losers your people send out against the truth, and they simply don't have a chance.

Take it up with them, they said it, otherwise how would I know? I'm just a "horrid little man" that has kept a half-dozen chemtrailers tied in knots for twenty pages and asked them ten or so questions that has them so scared they have lost their minds. I'm getting e-mails wondering if you people are real, or if this whole thing is a lost episode from Monty Python.

ha!
Jay

[amber]

Take it up with them

I have, thanks for the advice


I'm getting e-mails wondering if you people are real, or if this whole thing is a lost episode from Monty Python.

Wow! good for you! You must be playing with yourself with all that attention, don't get it very often do you?

Well Mrs Reynolds, I was hoping you would finally clear up the William Cooper association, but I seemed to have tied you up in knots with that..nevermind :roll:

But life goes on and I must leave you,.. moving house, things to do. Sorry, you will have to call someone else 'honey, sweetie...etc...Perhaps Bonehead? You make a gorgeous couple :wink: Feed off someone else for a while, you vampire,...and give that hand a rest once in a while...You WILL go blind :oops:

[letxa2000]

'These people'... is a bit of a generalisation isn't it? Not very scientific, seeing as you were responding to evionman's confusion about lack of hard data Got the stats?

"These people" seems accurate to me. I haven't been involved in this debate as long as others who have been dealing with this for years, apparently, but what I've seen thusfar suggests that those that believe in chemtrails do tend to believe in the things that Bonehead9 suggested they believe in. It might not be accurate of everyone, but it seems to be a fairly accurate generalization.

In any case, there has been no satisfactory response to Reynolds' 10 or so questions. Gaiacomm responded but it was an empty response in which he basically conceded there was no evidence to support the claims which is pretty much why you find people unwilling to believe it. You want to talk about the issues? Let's see a real response to the questions Reynolds has posed.

[liakopoulos]

I think that you both have a good point there. Do you know how a wether doppler radar register a flat cloud consisting of jet exaust gasses , natural vapor and metallic particals just a few micros in length?

[liakopoulos]

I was talking to bonehead9 and lextra2000 not Raynolds. Hey Jay ,wanna hear a greek proverb?

[liakopoulos]

Little Jay, be sure that you don't want to meet me in front of a camera ,neither behind it.

[amber]

Sorry couldn't resist one last post


I haven't been involved in this debate as long as others

yea, school does limit your time on the net




it seems to be a fairly accurate generalization.


Are you serious? Something is either accurate or it is not...you cannot be a little accurate..a lot accurate and certainly not fairly accurate.
And generalisations are, by definition, not accurate.

[Bonehead9]

I think that you both have a good point there. Do you know how a wether doppler radar register a flat cloud consisting of jet exaust gasses , natural vapor and metallic particals just a few micros in length?


What difference does the size of the particle make? If the particle density in a given area of a so-called chemtrail is dense enough to reflect light, then it will be dense enough to reflect radar, no matter what size the particles are.

Here are some studies of interstellar dust using radar.
http://www.physics.utoledo.edu/~aod03/abstracts_pdf/p2.17.pdf

http://www.physics.utoledo.edu/~aod03/abstracts_pdf/p2.19.pdf



The use of weather radar to examine dust storms (http://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/64783.pdf)


And, just for my Greek friends

Mt. Etna:



Caption: ”The image to the left shows details using the infrared and 11 micron channel. The plume of smoke is very evident in the image due to the temperature difference between the smoke and the sea. Interestingly, the smoke is cooler than the sea - much like the vapour trails that follow a jet aircraft.

source (http://earth.esa.int/ers/article_archive/etna072001.html)

Pretty cool, huh? And it looks like you can see some persistant contrails off to the west of the island, where the prevailing winds are lifting up moisture laden air into the stratosphere as the air mass moves over the mountains. :D



In addition, there are a number of different systems that could be used to observe submicron particles. LIDAR is an emerging new tool in the study of atmospheric aerosols.

Given how widespread that you claim chemtrails are, it is a wonder that none of the scientists doing LIDAR research are up in arms over the chemtrails interfering with their research.

[Bonehead9]

OK, my Hellenic friends, I have a challenge for you.

Read this (http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/public/etd-936202349751421/etd.pdf)

I challenge you to convince the author of this thesis (a fellow Greek) that chemtrails are real.

He can be e-mailed at christos@birch.ee.vt.edu

Good luck.

[letxa2000]

Letxa2000: I haven't been involved in this debate as long as others

Amber: yea, school does limit your time on the net

Do "you people" have some gene that causes you to think that age has any relevance to anything whatsoever? I hadn't seen anyone make another person's age an issue since sometime in my early teens until I started debating other folks with ideas similar to yours in another forum--suddenly it was like I was back in grade school where one's age is more important than one's knowledge or contribution. It seems to be a comment of desperation when there is nothing else useful to say and, quite frankly, it's childish.


Letxa2000: it seems to be a fairly accurate generalization.

Amber: Are you serious? Something is either accurate or it is not...you cannot be a little accurate..a lot accurate and certainly not fairly accurate. And generalisations are, by definition, not accurate.

Your response is what your comrades would consider "nit-picking" had I made the comment. Nonetheless, the process of generalizing (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=generalizing) includes the definitions "To reduce to a general form, class, or law", and "To infer from many particulars" and "To draw inferences or a general conclusion from". A generalization is accurate if it achieves those goals. Since most people that believe in chemtrails also believe in some combination of the other beliefs mentioned by bonehead9, the generalization is accurate. This does not means it applies to everyone in the group but unless you don't understand the concept of a generalization then that was never implied.

Now if we could leave semantics and jabs at my age, would you be interested in responding to the 10 or questions Reynolds has posted and no-one has yet responded to in any sufficient fashion?

[Bonehead9]

I wonder if “chemtrails” ever mess up the data collected by these scientists?


http://www.ofps.ucar.edu/ace-asia/dm/data_list.html

[gaiacomm]

Jay:

I will attempt to answer your questions, and then you go AWAY or I will have to tell on you!


1.Do you have a background in a technical field?YES, PHYSICS If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? MANY SCIENTIST IF THEY COULD REMAIN CLOAKEDIf no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not? THERE ARE MANY SCIENTIST THAT WOULD SUPPORT IF ONE WOULD COME FORWARD!

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? VARIOUS WEBSITES AND CLASSIFIED KNOWLEDGE If none can be relied upon, why not? MOST OF THE INFO YOU SEEK IS CLASSIFIED!...NSA!!!! AND OTHERS.

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences?NO, BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT A FORUM FOR THAT If not, why not? BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE IS CLASSIFIED!

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"? A IMBALANCE OF THE BIOSPHERE CAUSED BY MANMADE EMISSIONS AND INJECTIONS BY CHEMICALS AND OTHER BY PRODUCT EXHAUSTS INTO THE AIR, LAND AND SEA.

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not? DO A SEARCH ON THE INTERNET!

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails? THE CHEMICAL STRING IS DIFFERENT.

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails? WHAT IS PUBLIC AND WHAT IS NOT!

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"? NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT..PLEASE PROVIDE!

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information? NO MORE THAN YOU BEING A SOURCE!
_________________

[gaiacomm]

When Jewish scientists inside Greece challenge Liakopoulos with the twelve deadly questions on ET-1, will he be happy he had a chance to try out his answers here, or sad when he is left speechless in front of the camera?.

NOW ANSWER THE QUESTIONS "PROFESSOR", OR CAN YOU ONLY PLAGIARIZE THE WORK OF WILLIAM THOMAS?

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. Upon what evidence did you conclude that 4000 Jews were warned to stay home from work at the world trade center on 9/11?

11. If you shake hands with a Greek, should you count your
fingers afterwards?


Jay,

Did you get your PM message?

By the way questions 10 and 11 are not appropiate on this forum.
And terrorist threats can be reported to the FBI which includes rascist remarks and other slanderous remarks.

You know we are still at war on terrorism and now the FBI, etc has to follow up on complaints filed!

You and your kind really need to obey certain moral rules here.

A well placed letter to Arianna describing this conduct with her name attached to this website should at least force the administrators to take some sort of legal action.

A well placed letter to some select newspapers should do the trick!

I doubt that Arianna would like her name associated with race and relegious comments and threats on her website!

[gaiacomm]

Jay;

People like you is what gives debate a bad name.

You just cannot get the picture, can you!

How about a sneak peek of your future, Jay?

[jayreynolds]

liakopoulos wrote:
I think that you both have a good point there. Do you know how a wether doppler radar register a flat cloud consisting of jet exaust gasses , natural vapor and metallic particals just a few micros in length?

liakopoulos, I find it very interesting that a person who claims(with no proof) to be a physics professor would be asking such a question, since you supposedly wrote a book on the subject of "chemtrails". The most elementary of physics regarding remote sensing should have led you to ask that question long ago.

Guess who brought up the question, originally, and long ago?
The answer is- Jay Reynolds!
Where did he do it?
Chemtrailcentral.com, in the "rumpus room" forum during 2003!
Where is the proof that I did so?
The proof was deleted, in fact, the entire forum was deleted because it is the "FINAL SOLUTION" to the "chemtrails" hoax!

This single question completely blows apart the whole idea of "chemtrails" being other than ice crystals typical of contrails, and especially material of a non-aqueous substance. Even then, doppler radar shows density differences of SMOKE PLUMES FROM FOREST FIRES, SPACE ROCKET LAUNCHES, and even density differences of ORDINARY AIR MASSES.

IS IT STARTING TO GET THROUGH TO YOU MORONS YET?

YOU HAVE BEEN DUPED, FOOLED, TAKEN INTO A TRAP, CONSUMED,
DIGESTED, AND NOW SPAT OUT.

TIME TO ADMIT IT, "CHEMTRAILS" ARE JUST ORDINARY CONTRAILS.

FIGHT AGAINST ORDINARY CONTRAILS IF IT PLEASES YOU BUT STOP MAKING CLAIMS THAT HAVE PROVEN TO BE BOGUS.

WHEN YOU FINALLY ADMIT "CHEMTRAILS" ARE A HOAX, JAY REYNOLDS GOES AWAY AND LEAVES YOU ALONE, GET IT????

WHEN YOU FINALLY ADMIT THE TRUTH, THAT YOU DON"T LIKE BIG FAT CONTRAILS, SCIENCE WILL BE ON YOUR SIDE!!!!!

YES, REAL SCIENTISTS WITH REAL NAMES, REAL RESEARCH IS ALREADY UNDERWAY PEOPLE!!!!

IS IT STARTING TO GET THROUGH TO YOU MORONS YET?

[gaiacomm]

Readers;

We all know that Jay is afraid of me because he knows I know him!

Remember in the movie "A Beautiful Mind" a statement was made about sometimes you have to choose to ignor them even though you know or think they are there!

We all have choices so choose to ignore Jay and his people and post around them...they need us to feed...so don't feed them!

Jay is so alone and fearful, I pity you little man...afaid to come and play!

[gaiacomm]

Jay,

was it your people that thought the world was flat?

And that some people were witches?

And the sun revolves around the earth!

That a airplane was possible?

Cure for smallpox?

Gunpowder?

Jet engine?

Computer?

Light bulb?

AC power?

Radio?

TV?

Movies?

internet?

Kodak film?

Steel?

Nuclear power?

Submarines?

Guns?

DVD?

Wireless protocol?

Lawyers?

Doctors?

Chemtrails?

GPS?

weather mod?

Americas Idol?

Bernie Mack?

I could go on!

The world is blessed knowing that there are only a few of you left!

[gaiacomm]

So Jay...whatA Journey Through The Labyrinth
by Jay Reynolds


This report describes the results of my efforts, using the Freedom
Of Information Act(FOIA), to confirm and inquire about material
samples sent to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency(EPA) on 1/12/2000 by Clifford Carnicom and David Peterson representing the "Chemtrail Research Fund".

Background


Since early 1999, reports have circulated which allege that viewers of contrails have also observed web-like material falling from the sky, which they assumed were related to the aircraft. One of these reports was discussed in my first article on the subject, in which I simulated the rate of fall of such a material, and found that it descended so slowly and was horizontally displaced so much that it could not have been related to the contrail seen.


During November and December of 1999, Clifford Carnicom claimed to have received samples of such a substance, one of which he says he sent to EPA addressed to Carol Browner, the EPA Administrator. Carnicom also has displayed various microphotographs which he claims come from one of these samples. Significantly, Carnicom claimed to Joseph Farah, the Editor of WorldNet Daily, that he had lab test results, but that,

" ...it could be easily proven that the lab conclusions were false...".
Carnicom has never presented these lab conclusions, or described how they could be proven false.


During 2000, I wrote an extensive article, the first of it's kind, which discussed how falling webs have been observed for over 100 years and are known to be the ordinary result of spider dispersal. In the article, I described exactly what amino acids would be found by HPLC analysis in normal spider webs, thus allowing unknown web material to be identified.


While he has never displayed any actual laboratory analysis of the material,
Carnicom later claimed that:

"Numerous red blood cells, white blood cells, and
unidentified cell types have been found within the
sub-micron fiber sample previously presented and submitted on
Jan 20 2000 to Carol M. Browner"

The above claim has not been professionally evaluated, and no real laboratory tests have been presented.


In February, 2001, Carnicom claimed to have collected air samples
in which he also found "red blood cells". This claim was evaluated by two pathologists and a hematologist at the request of Erminia Cassani, a "chemtrails" believer, who concluded:

"For Mr. Carnicom (or anyone) to put the idea into the mind
of readers, many of them already horribly scared by what might
be in chemtrails aerosol, seems dangerously irresponsible when he has performed such a spurious analysis to begin with and the opinion
of "red blood cells" was not rendered by a medical professional,
and at least 3 professionals who specialise in the study of blood have
said "no" these photos do not look like red blood cells, although
one thought they might resemble them.


How many mentally and physically fragile people out there
will read Mr. Carnicom's proclamations of "proof" that
chemtrails are a biological testing program and perhaps
commit suicide or otherwise harm themselves or others in some
kind of public gun attack, or bombing, or the like, fearing the
worst, i.e. that their country is performing dangerous biological
testing on United States citizens via raining down red blood cells
on all of us to infect us with something? To those of us in
the medical community who work everyday to save lives these
type of incendiary statements fall into the reckless endangerment
category and is tantamount to crying "fire!" in a theater. I for
one would ask Mr. Carnicom to turn his considerable efforts
and his obvious very high intelligence toward helping look
for the real Chemtrails answers rather than obscure and muddy
the picture with more hysteria producing "biological specimens"
of questionable origin that do not hold up under professional scrutiny."


By November, 2000, Carnicom had reported several responses from EPA, none of which addressed the sample sent whatsoever, but all of which stated EPA's belief that what had been observed were normal contrails.

I found EPA's refusal to even mention the material samples sent by Carnicom in their correspondence to him very curious, while "chemtrail" believers, and Carnicom himself, used that fact to support the idea that EPA was engaging in a cover-up.





In order to confirm whether or not such a sample had in fact been sent to EPA, and if in fact the EPA documents displayed by Carnicom were genuine, I submitted a Freedom of Information Act Request to ascertain the truth of the matter. Such a FOIA request had been briefly discussed by Carnicom and others, but no results have been forthcoming.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FOIA REQUEST SENT


[Message Sent November 25, 2000]

HQ FOIA Operations Staff
United States Environmental Protection Agency
1200 Pennsylvania Avenue (1105A)
Washington, DC 20460
(202) 564-7333 FAX (202) 501-1818
Email: hq.foia@epamail.epa.gov

Re: Freedom of Information Act Request

Dear Sirs:

This is a request under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C., Sec. 552.

I request that a copy of the following documents [or documents containing the following information] be provided to me:

1. Documents related to the receipt, handling, and disposition of alleged material samples sent on 1/12/2000 to the Office of Carol M. Browner, EPA Administrator, by Clifford E. Carnicom and David C. Peterson representing the "Chemtrail Research Fund", and allegedly received by Carol M. Browner via certified return receipt mail at EPA on 1/20/2000 as described at this internet website:
http://www.carnicom.com/epa3.htm

2. Documents generated in response to this alleged material subsequent to it's receipt, including its current location, any material or biological analysis results done at EPA or by any other US government agency, communication within EPA related to this material, or communication with any other US government agency.

3. Documents generated in response to the letter attached to the material allegedly sent by Carnicom and Peterson, which documents represent internal communication within EPA, or with any other US government agency.

In order to help determine my status to assess fees, you should know something about me. I am a representative of the news media affiliated with VERITAS News Service, and have previously written articles on this subject. <http://williamcooper.com/contrails.htm>

This request is made as part of news gathering and not for a commercial use. I understand that representatives of the news media may obtain 100 copied pages free, with no charge for search time or review time from the EPA.

I am aware that I am entitled to make this request under the Freedom of Information Act, and if your agency response is not satisfactory, I am prepared to make an administrative appeal.
Please indicate to me the name of the official to whom such an appeal should be addressed.

I am aware that if my request is denied I am entitled to know the grounds for this denial.

I am aware that while the law allows your agency to withhold specified categories of exempted information, you are required by law to release any segregable portions that are left after the
exempted material has been deleted from the data I am seeking.

I request a waiver of all fees for this request. Disclosure of the requested information to me is in the public interest because it is likely to contribute significantly to public understanding of the
operations or activities of the government, and is not primarily in my commercial interest, nor a business trying to get information on industrial competitors.

Sincerely,

Jay Reynolds
Central Bureau Chief
VERITAS NEWS SERVICE



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



FURTHER CORRESPONDENCE



[Message Sent Tuesday, 13 February, 2001]

From: "Jay Reynolds" <reality2u30@hotmail.com>
To: <borushko.margaret@epa.gov>
Sent: Tuesday, 13 February, 2001 2:23 PM
Subject: Regarding OTAQ FOIA request RIN-00860-01

Dear Ms. Borushko,
I am writing you in reference to my FOIA request RIN # 00869-01 originally sent November 25, 2000. I understand my request went unassigned until my first inquiry on Jan 2, 2001 when I was told it was first input into the chain of events for it's fulfillment.

I did receive confirmation and the reference number on January 5, 2001.

On February 8, 2001, I again made inquiry by phone and was directed to Vivian Warden(202-564-7613) who told me the request had been assigned to Lillian Davis(202-5647418).

On February 12, 2001, I contacted Ms. Davis, who told me it had been assigned to Sabrina Hamilton(202-564-1083).

Today, February 13, 2001, I contacted Ms Hamilton who told me it had been assigned to you. I understand from Ms. Hamilton that you may be out of town, and left a message on your voice mail this afternoon.

I am now hopeful that I have reached the responsible person who can fulfill my request. In order to help you do this as easily as possible, please know that I am available through email to answer any questions you may have regarding my request. I endeavored to make the request sufficiently specific enough so that the information needed will fully inform my readers, but
also broad enough so that information about which I am not certain will be included.

Further, let me assure you totally that I definitely am not one of the misguided people that just "believe" they are being sprayed from aircraft when they see contrails. Since March of 1999, when my first article was written in VERITAS on this subject, through 2000, and up to the present day I see no tangible evidence that this is occurring.

My work has been cited by the Congressional Research Service in their 1999 Report to Congress on this controversy, and also is cited by the USAF responding to the "chemtrail hoax".

I am a journalist who will follow a story wherever it goes, however, and am particularly aware of the position that Mr. Clifford Carnicom has taken and his many allegations against EPA. I am also aware of the Contrails Fact Sheet and have directed my readers to it by means of a
prominent link at my website. I am also aware of the letters Mr. Carnicom has sent, at least those which he has displayed on his website, and those replies from EPA, which he has also posted on his website.

The purpose of my FOIA is to document and follow, from it's receipt through it's present whereabouts, any material sample which Mr. Carnicom alleges that he sent to EPA. My readers need to know if in fact anything was sent, and what became of it if it was actually sent.

Further, if any such material has been analyzed or identified, I request a copy of any and all analysis made so that my readers may be fully informed.

Further, my readers need to know the rationale and reasoning behind any decisions made in regards to this matter, which will require me to obtain any and all internal documents which represent communication pertaining to these decisions.

Again, I am available to answer any questions you may have regarding this request, and hope that it will be fulfilled within the specified time frame of 5 U.S.C., Sec. 552, and EPA guidelines. For your reference, below are the specifics of my request as copied from my original document.

Best regards,
Jay Reynolds
Central Bureau Chief
VERITAS NEWS SERVICE



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EPA Responds to FOIA Request


[Letter received March 5, 2001]


UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
NATIONAL VEHICLE AND FUEL EMISSIONS LABORATORY
2565 PLYMOUTH ROAD
ANN ARBOR, MICHIGAN 48105-2498

Jay Reynolds
Central News Bureau
Veritas News Service

Subject: Freedom of Information Act Request; RIN 00860-01

Dear Mr. Reynolds,

In response to your Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request of November 25, 2000, in which you request information related to alleged material sample,we are supplying copies of the following relevant documents that are responsive to your request. Each copy is identified by a number that corresponds to the numbers shown below.

1. Certified Mail envelope, NO. Z 218 710 731, dated January 14, 2000, from Chemtrail Research Fund, Aspen, Co, to Carol M. Browner, EPA Administrator, Washington, DC

2. Letter from David C.Peterson, Chemtrail Research Fund, to Carol M. Browner, EPA Administrator, dated January 12, 2000

3. Letter from Clifford Carnicom, Chemtrail Research Fund, to Carol M. Browner, EPA Administrator, dated January 12, 2000

4. Label dated 1/12/00, "Fibrous Substance Sample For EPA Identification," attached to Ziploc bag container.

5. First page, of two-page reply letter from EPA's Assessment and
Standards Division, dated February 22, 2000, David C. Peterson,
and Clifford E. Carnicom, of the Chemtrail Research Fund,

6. Second page of letter described immediately above, signed by
Robert Larson, for Chester J. France, Director, Assessment and
Standards Division

7. Priority Mail envelope, tracking no. 7000 0600 0025 7524 4547 ,
dated June 6, 2000, from Chemtrail Research Fund, Aspen, Co, to
Carol M. Browner, EPA Administrator, Washington DC

8. Letter from Clifford E. Carnicom, and David Peterson, Chemtrail
Research Fund, to Carol M. Browner, EPA Administrator, dated
May 30, 2000

9. Letter from Clifford E. Carnicom, Chemtrail Research Fund, to
Carol M. Browner, EPA Administrator, dated January 12, 2000

10. Label dated 1/12/00, "Fibrous Substance Sample For EPA
Identification"

11. Reply letter from EPA's Assessment and Standards Division,
dated June (day not readable) 2000, to Clifford E. Carnicom, and
David C. Peterson, of the Chemtrail Research Fund, signed by
Robert Larson, for Chester J. France, Director, Assessment and
Standards Division

12. First page, of two-page reply letter from EPA's Assessment and
Standards Division, dated February 22, 2000, to David C.
Peterson, and Clifford E. Carnicom, of the Chemtrail Research
Fund,

13. Second page of letter described immediately above, signed by
Robert Larson, for Chester J. France, Director, Assessment and
Standards Division

14. Email to president@Whitehouse.GOV, dated 07/12/2000, from
Scot Pfeiffer, Irving, TX

15. Document with heading, "EPA Refuses To Identify Sample"

16. First page, two-page reply letter from EPA's Assessment and
Standards Division, dated February 22, 2000, to David C.
Peterson, and Clifford E. Carnicom, of the Chemtrail Research
Fund

17. Second page, of two-page reply letter from EPA's Assessment and Standards Division

18. First page, two-page reply letter from EPA's Assessment and
Standards Division, dated November 29, 2000, to Mr. Scot
Pfeiffer, Irving, TX [JAY REYNOLDS NOTES: This letter is essentially identical to Item 16&17 above]

19. Second page of letter described immediately above, signed by
Ines Storhok, for Chester J. France, Director, Assessment and
Standards Division [JAY REYNOLDS NOTES: This letter is essentially identical to Item 16&17 above]

The alleged material sample submitted to EPA from the Chemtrail Research Fund was not analyzed for its chemical and physical properties. A difficulty with this sample is that it is minimal in quantity and lacks a verifiable chain of custody, with origins that cannot be established, e.g., where and when retrieved.

We are granting your request for a fee waiver in accordance with the Agency's regulations, 40 CFR, Part 2, Section 2.120(d). The enclosed information totals 19 pages.


Sincerely,
(Ines Storhok for)
Robin Moran, Director
Light Duty Onroad Center


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FOIA Response Appealed

[Message sent March 6, 2001]

HQ FOIA APPEALS OFFICER
HQ FOIA Operations Staff
United States Environmental Protection Agency
1200 Pennsylvania Avenue (1105A)
Washington, DC 20460
(202) 564-7333 FAX (202) 501-1818
Email: hq.foia@epamail.epa.gov

Re: Freedom of Information Act Request Appeal

Dear Sir or Madam:

This is an appeal under the Freedom of Information Act,
5 U.S.C. Sec. 552.

On 10/25/2000, I requested documents under the Freedom of Information Act. My request was assigned the following identification number: [RIN 00860-01].

On 3/5/2001, I received a response to my request in a letter signed by [Ines Storhok, for Robin Moran, Director, Light Duty Onroad Center] I am writing to obtain a precise determination
of why portions of my request have been denied, and to resubmit my request on appeal.

My original request(copy attached below) included the request for:

QUOTE- Item [1]. Documents related to the receipt, handling, and disposition of alleged material samples sent on 1/12/2000 to the Office of Carol M. Browner, EPA Administrator, by Clifford E. Carnicom and David C. Peterson representing the "Chemtrail Research Fund", and allegedly received by Carol M. Browner via certified return receipt mail at EPA on 1/20/99 as described at this internet website:
http://www.carnicom.com/epa3.htm

I am reasonably satisfied that item [1] of my original request
has been responded to.

QUOTE- Item [2]. Documents generated in response to this alleged material subsequent to it's receipt, including its current location, any material or biological analysis results done at EPA or by any other US government agency, communication within EPA related to this material, or communication with any other US government agency.

My original request for item [2] documents has not been substantively responded to.

No documents generated by EPA in response to the sample were sent to me in fulfillment of my original request, no exemption was specified, and no statement was made that the requested material does not exist.

The cover letter sent by EPA in response to my original FOIA request states, "The alleged material sample submitted to EPA from the Chemtrail Research Fund was not analyzed for its
chemical and physical properties. A difficulty with this sample is that it is minimal in quantity and lacks a verifiable chain of custody, with origins that cannot be established, e.g.,
where and when retrieved."

My original request was for documents which EPA should have used to quantify whether or not the sample is in fact minimal, and would necessarily include a description of the sample mass and volume. Without such basic factual information, EPA would not have been able to determine whether the sample is minimal or not.

I appeal my original request for any documents related to a material or biological analysis of the sample submitted to EPA by the Chemtrail Research Fund, which was not responded to by EPA.

Standard practice within government upon receipt of such a material sample would necessarily include documentation to establish and maintain EPA's own chain of custody. My request
for "Documents generated in response to this alleged material subsequent to it's receipt, including its current location," was not responded to.

I appeal my original request for documentation responsive to my request, documents which establish EPA's own chain of custody in handling of this material from receipt to
it's current location.

My original request for documents related to, "communication within EPA related to this material, or communication with any other US government agency" was not responded to. I am aware that any such communication within EPA of a factual nature does not fall within exemption, and the factual portions of ALL communication falling under my original request must be released. Public disclosure to me has been made by EPA that, "A difficulty with this sample
is that it is minimal in quantity and lacks a verifiable chain of custody, with origins that cannot be established, e.g., where and when retrieved." This public disclosure of EPA's opinion negates future privilege of internal communication under exemption 5, because the opinion has not been kept within the agency and is now a matter of public record.

I appeal my original request for documentation responsive to my request for "communication within EPA related to this material, or communication with any other US government agency"

QUOTE- 3. Documents generated in response to the letter attached to the material allegedly sent by Carnicom and Peterson, which documents represent internal communication within EPA, or with any other US government agency.

My original request for item [3] documents has not been substantively responded to.

No documents generated by EPA in response to the item [3] were sent to me in fulfillment of my original request, no exemption was specified, and no statement was made that the
requested material does not exist.

I appeal my original request for documentation responsive to my request in item [3].

In summary, the documents that were withheld must be disclosed under the FOIA because disclosure of the requested information to me is in the public interest because it is likely to
contribute significantly to public understanding of the operations or activities of the government, and is not primarily in my commercial interest, nor a business trying to get information on industrial competitors.

I am aware that while the law allows your agency to withhold specified categories of exempted information, you are required by law to release any segregable portions that are left after
the exempted material has been deleted from the data I am seeking. I am aware that the intent of Congress in writing the Freedom of Information Act was to provide full disclosure
interpreted broadly, and with a presumption in favor of such disclosure.

I request a waiver of all fees for this request.

In order to help determine my status to assess fees, you should know something about me. I am a representative of the news media affiliated with VERITAS News Service, and have previously written articles on this subject. <http://williamcooper.com/contrails.htm>

This request is made as part of news gathering and not for a commercial use. I understand that representatives of the news media may obtain 100 copied pages free, with no charge for search time or review time from the EPA.

I am aware that if my request is denied I am entitled to know the grounds for this denial.



Sincerely,
Jay Reynolds
Central Bureau Chief
VERITAS NEWS SERVICE



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Standard Documentation Used by EPA
happend here:

[gaiacomm]

Jay....what?



Jay Reynolds was born in Dallas, Texas during the summer of 1955, and spent his childhood there. During that time, he developed a love of reading and observation. From an early age, he worked in the family business building municipal water systems and industrial buildings, and a working knowledge of many trades. His parents instilled in him a strong work ethic and moral values, and he became fluent in the Spanish language.


He attended the Texas Maritime Academy of Texas A&M University at Galveston, TX, graduating in 1977 with a Bachelor of Science degree in Marine Engineering. During that time, he was able to travel worldwide and qualified to become a Third Assistant Ship's Engineer, Steam/Diesel, Unlimited Horsepower.
His studies at the University included all engineering disciplines, with heavy emphasis on power generation and marine propulsion systems, and also oceanography, meteorology, and navigation.


After graduation, he received further training and became a Field Service Engineer for the General Electric Corporation, working on the Texas gulf coast providing technical direction in both construction and maintenance of large steam and gas turbines and shipboard engines. He also traveled widely in Central America. In 1979, seeking further opportunity, he moved to the island of St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands, and joined the Hess Oil Virgin Islands Corporation, where he was employed as a Gas Turbine Engineer and supervised maintenance of nine gas turbine power generators with waste heat recovery boilers at one of the world's largest oil refineries.


On St. Croix, and in subsequent travels around the Caribbean, he became an accomplished diver, spearfisherman, and sailor, and immersed himself in West Indian culture. Eventually, a home garden grew to become a full-time enterprise which was called "Blue Chips Farm", a farm which produced organically grown tropical fruits and vegetables. This operation, with the able assistance of his beautiful wife, Karen, was expanded when he developed a cannery operation to create gourmet quality preserves and sauces, which were marketed to the tourist trade. Blue Chips consistently won prizes at local fairs and their products were sold throughout the islands and by mail-order.

In 1989, Blue Chips was featured in Organic Gardening magazine for it's innovative system of alternating crop beds with permanent mulch generating strips thus supplying organic matter, mulch, reducing erosion, and slowing evapotranspiration. During off seasons, Jay continued his engineering work off the farm as Port Engineer for General Offshore Corporation, which performed quality control testing of U.S. Navy antisubmarine detection devices.


On September 19, 1989, St.Croix was devastated by Hurricane Hugo, a powerful category 5 hurricane that completely devastated the island. The damage was further accomplished by widespread looting in the aftermath. After total destruction of the farm and the island's economy, Jay was asked to return to the Hess Oil refinery during their rebuilding, this time working as Fired Boiler Supervising Engineer, where he continued for the next two years.


In 1992, the Reynolds repatriated to the United States mainland and purchased property to begin development of a self-sufficient homestead in the midwest. They have restored a 120 year old log cabin and built barns and outbuildings. Current efforts are nearing completion of a super-insulated Victorian style home built using native stone and the slip-form method. Soil is being built up using large amounts of organic matter and legume crops, and orchard trees have been planted. Their family now includes two children, some small animals, and a secure location to live, with timber, bottomland, a creek, and a free-flowing spring.


Upon returning from 12 years offshore, Jay was astonished at the changes he found in his nation. The loss of American rights, the submersion of sovereignty, lowering of educational achievement, and the decline of America's preeminence in manufacturing were especially troubling. Seeking answers and solutions, he allied with William Cooper, a great American who has been documenting these changes and their possible outcomes. Jay's research has helped in the production of a newspaper, VERITAS, the Harvest-Trust website, and Mr. Cooper's nightly broadcast "The Hour of the Time". His writing has been featured on several websites and newspapers, and he hopes to provide the best information possible, fully documented and verifiable by any reader. He is willing to listen to all viewpoints and strives to establish reality based on factual information and logical analysis. His work has been completely without remuneration and is for the benefit of all.

[gaiacomm]

When Jewish scientists inside Greece challenge Liakopoulos with the twelve deadly questions on ET-1, will he be happy he had a chance to try out his answers here, or sad when he is left speechless in front of the camera?.

NOW ANSWER THE QUESTIONS "PROFESSOR", OR CAN YOU ONLY PLAGIARIZE THE WORK OF WILLIAM THOMAS?

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. Upon what evidence did you conclude that 4000 Jews were warned to stay home from work at the world trade center on 9/11?

11. If you shake hands with a Greek, should you count your
fingers afterwards?


Jay,

Did you get your PM message?

By the way questions 10 and 11 are not appropiate on this forum.
And terrorist threats can be reported to the FBI which includes rascist remarks and other slanderous remarks.

You know we are still at war on terrorism and now the FBI, etc has to follow up on complaints filed!

You and your kind really need to obey certain moral rules here.

A well placed letter to Arianna describing this conduct with her name attached to this website should at least force the administrators to take some sort of legal action.

A well placed letter to some select newspapers should do the trick!

I doubt that Arianna would like her name associated with race and relegious comments and threats on her website!

[halva]

Reynolds, in the game of life most people imagine themselves as referees. You, by contrast, are a football that thinks it is a footballer.

[halva]

And by the way, without any feeling that I have to give explanations to you about anything, the word "kathigitis" in Greek is used for both high school teachers and university professors. Many Greek people whose English is not as good as yours or mine (but better than your Greek) misuse the word 'professor' in English.

[Enviroman]

I think that you both have a good point there. Do you know how a wether doppler radar register a flat cloud consisting of jet exaust gasses , natural vapor and metallic particals just a few micros in length?


What difference does the size of the particle make? If the particle density in a given area of a so-called chemtrail is dense enough to reflect light, then it will be dense enough to reflect radar, no matter what size the particles are.

.

Actually particle size does matter with precipitation radar. It is tuned and calibrated, for the resonance that would be expected from water droplet size such as rain. They do not want fog, clouds, etc to resonate and send back to signal.

[liakopoulos]

To GAIACOMM: I congratulate you on the calm way of dealing with the "Raynolds" phenomenon. To ENVIRONMAN: I am glad that you answered for me ,since I have limited time to spend at this forum. Thank you. Fom me, time is a luxury I do not have in abundance. So having to reply to"JAY'S" THREATS AND INSULTS, leaves me no time to do what I am supposed to do in this forum. I must say though, that I find it most tempting to expose someone who is a WINNER IN HIS OWN MIND ,being actually mr nobody. Please let me to contribute to this conversation by stating the fact that aluminum exists in the JP series airplane fuel. So its oxiedes eventually emerge with the exaust gasses of the jet engines. A simple tracer action in altavista can proove that. If we can agree on that, then we can start talking instead of giving parallel monologs. Thank you all.

[liakopoulos]

Concerning the ability of tracing a flat cloud consisting of jet exaust gasses ,natural vapor and tiny metalic particles, the answer is that you "might" detect it as a simple meaningless cloud and never trace the aluminum or barium in it. Someone could do that using LIDAR, but think of that, LIDAR might sound like star trek technology to everyday meteorologists who try to do their best with what they have in hand. In the particular case of flat clouds when we say tiny particles ,we refer to the scale of just a few microns. So flat clouds created by the dispersion of ....trails are usually of no importance to rutine observers. At the first chance that i'll have I'll give you pictures of ...trails (for conversation's sake I am not calling them contrails or chemtrails) in Greece that proove that the white gasses left behind by airliners demonstrate odd atidute to say the least, looking like fall outs. SO IF WE WANT TO SERIOUSLY TALK IN THIS FORUM INSTEAD OF HAVING TO ANSWER TO THE THREATS AND INSULTS OF JAY WHO IS A WINNER ONLY IN HIS OWN MIND, LET US START ON THE BASIS THAT WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS REALLY HAPPENING AND LET US TRY TO PRESENT WHAT WE HAVE IN HAND.

[Bonehead9]

but think of that, LIDAR might sound like star trek technology to everyday meteorologists who try to do their best with what they have in hand.
[/b]


What an arogant, asnine, idiotic statement.


BTW, have you tried to contact your compatriot yet?

A person who has quite likley never heard of chemtrails. see if you can convince him of your theories.

[liakopoulos]

Raynolds wrote:
WHEN YOU FINALLY ADMIT "CHEMTRAILS" ARE A HOAX, JAY REYNOLDS GOES AWAY AND LEAVES YOU ALONE, GET IT????
Dear Jay, a psychiatrist friend of mine ,who is a democratic jew, is very much interested in your case and he says that deep inside you are not a bad person and all your symptoms are due to the opression you recieved through your childhood. So, little Jay wants to be the winner .OK you win.Now let us work please ,because we really care to find out what your bosses are after. For more information little Jaaahaaay, call a local psychiatrist because your case is really very very common. But I still have this question. Are you in for the money or for the fun of it?

[jayreynolds]

halva wrote:
"And by the way, without any feeling that I have to give explanations to you about anything, the word "kathigitis" in Greek is used for both high school teachers and university professors. Many Greek people whose English is not as good as yours or mine (but better than your Greek) misuse the word 'professor' in English.

So, you are abstrusley telling us that Leokopoulos is a high school teacher. Well, that makes us educational equals, then, because I have taught High School students too. Of course, I also have quite a few years experience working with gas turbine engines for the General Electric co, the world's leader, as a Field Service Engineer. I suppose Leokopoulos might pump his own petrol at the station.


Leokopoulos wrote:
". Please let me to contribute to this conversation by stating the fact that aluminum exists in the JP series airplane fuel. So its oxiedes eventually emerge with the exaust gasses of the jet engines. A simple tracer action in altavista can proove that. If we can agree on that, then we can start talking instead of giving parallel monologs."

I wouldn't be surprised if jet fuel contains trace metals in proportion to those found in the earth's crust, of which aluminum is the third most common element. After all, petrochemicals are refined from oil which comes out of the earth! Since earth also contains metals such as iron, calcium, and magnesium I expect they would be in jet fuel also.

I'd like to see Leokopoulos' proof for his claim.

Show us the complete metal profile of "JP series fuel", at least. While you are at it, show us comparable data for crude oil, from whence our kerosene based jet fuel is refined, and standard K-1 kerosene, used for illumination. Let's compare the three analysis.

Most likely what we will find is that all these fuels have some traces of aluminum. The amounts will not be large enough to attribute a conspiracy to, or great enough to have any effect, even in the hands of,
as Liakopoulos put it, "a zionist boss with a perverted mind."

Furthermore, Liakopoulos wrote:
"What can someone do if he has:a) an ELF modulated 10 gigawatt source. b)a flat cloud containing aluminium oxiede particles at an altitude of 30000 feet ,somewhere where he can clearly see it...?"

What in the world are you talking about? Surely you must have some reason to say this. What is your implication? What ELF modulated 10 gigawatt source? A flat coud containing aluminum oxide particles where?
And how would you "clearly see it"?

YOU made the comment, YOU explain it.

No need to be evasive now.....

[liakopoulos]

OK Jay since you are talking without being insulting, here it comes ; Public Health Statement
for
Jet Fuels JP-4 and JP-7

CAS# JP-4 50815-00-4
JP-7 N/A


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This Public Health Statement is the summary chapter from the Toxicological Profile for jet fuels JP-4 and JP-7. It is one in a series of Public Health Statements about hazardous substances and their health effects. A shorter version, the ToxFAQs™, is also available. This information is important because this substance may harm you. The effects of exposure to any hazardous substance depend on the dose, the duration, how you are exposed, personal traits and habits, and whether other chemicals are present. For more information, call the ATSDR Information Center at 1-888-422-8737.


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This statement was prepared to give you information about jet fuels JP-4 and JP-7 and to emphasize the human health effects that may result from exposure to them. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has identified 1,397 hazardous waste sites as the most serious in the nation. These sites make up the National Priorities List (NPL) and are the sites targeted for long-term federal clean-up activities. JP-4 has been found in at least 4 of these sites. JP-7 has not been found in any NPL site. However, the number of NPL sites evaluated for JP-4 and JP-7 is not known. As EPA evaluates more sites, the number of sites at which JP-4 and JP-7 are found may increase. This information is important for you to know because JP-4 and JP-7 may cause harmful health effects and because these sites are potential or actual sources of human exposure to JP-4 and JP-7.

When a chemical is released from a large area, such as an industrial plant, or from a container, such as a drum or bottle, it enters the environment as a chemical emission. This emission, which is also called a release, does not always lead to exposure. You can be exposed to a chemical only when you come into contact with the chemical. You may be exposed to it in the environment by breathing, eating, or drinking substances containing the chemical or from skin contact with it.

If you are exposed to a hazardous chemical such as JP-4 or JP-7, several factors will determine whether harmful health effects will occur and what the type and severity of those health effects will be. These factors include the dose (how much), the duration (how long), the route or pathway by which you are exposed (breathing, eating, drinking, or skin contact), the other chemicals to which you are exposed, and your individual characteristics such as age, sex, nutritional status, family traits, lifestyle, and state of health.


1.1 What are jet fuels JP-4 and JP-7?
JP-4 and JP-7 (jet propellant-4 and jet propellant-7) are substances that are used by the U.S. Air Force as aircraft fuels. They are also called jet fuel-4 and jet fuel-7. JP-4 is a colorless to straw-colored liquid. It smells like gasoline and/or kerosene. JP-7 is also a liquid, usually colorless. It smells like kerosene. Both JP-4 and JP-7 are flammable. JP-4 can be made by refining either crude petroleum oil or shale oil. JP-7 is made by refining kerosene, a product of refined crude petroleum. Both JP-4 and JP-7 are blends of other chemicals made according to standards specified by the U.S. Air Force for each fuel. Both JP-4 and JP-7 are liquids at room temperature, but they can also change into vapor.

In the toxicological profile, JP-4 and JP-7 are discussed together.

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1.2 What happens to jet fuels JP-4 and JP-7 when they enter the environment?
We have information about what happens to JP-4 or its components in the environment. Although JP-7 is similar, there is not much information about what happens to it in the environment. JP-4 enters the environment when it spills or leaks into water or soil. It can enter the air during manufacturing, by evaporation of spills, and when it is discarded or jettisoned from jets during flight. JP-4 is a mixture of many chemicals. After it is released, the mixture spreads out in the atmosphere, and the component chemicals behave differently than they did in the liquid mixture. The behavior of each component in the environment depends on its individual chemical and physical properties. When JP-4 enters the air from flying jets as unburned fuel, some of the constituent chemicals fall back to the earth and land on water or soil. Other chemicals stay in the air and may change to different compounds when they react with light or other chemicals. Most of the chemicals in JP-4 evaporate when JP-4 spills into water. Some of the chemicals that do not evaporate as fast may dissolve in the water. If the water is very rough when the spill occurs, more JP-4 components will dissolve in the water. The chemicals that dissolve in the water are broken down further by microorganisms or become attached to the solid materials, called sediment, in the water. The chemicals that bind to this sediment may settle to the bottom of the water and stay there for a long time. When JP-4 spills or leaks to soil, some of the chemicals evaporate, but many of them are broken down by microorganisms. Some of them may also stick to the soil. Components that do not break down easily and components that stick to soil particles may stay in the soil for a long time. Currently, no information is available about what happens to JP-7 or its
components in the environment, but it is similar in composition to JP-4 so it would probably act like JP-4 when it enters the environment.

We know that many chemicals found in JP-4 can break down in the atmosphere to other chemicals, but we do not know what many of these breakdown products are. We have some information on several chemicals found in jet fuel (for example, benzene, toluene, hexane, xylene, and lead). We know more about what happens to them when they enter the environment as individual chemicals. When they enter the environment as part of jet fuel, they may behave the same way as when they are released alone. You can find more information on several individual components of jet fuel in the ATSDR toxicological profiles for these chemicals.

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1.3 How might I be exposed to jet fuels JP-4 and JP-7?
It is unlikely that you would be exposed to JP-4 unless you work with jet fuel or live very close to where it is used or spilled. Exposure to JP-4 can occur if you touch soil or water contaminated from a spill or leak. If you drink water contaminated with JP-4 you will be exposed to the chemicals in the mixture. You might breathe in some of the chemicals evaporating from a spill or leak site if you stay in the area where an accident has occurred. Exposure to some components might occur from air releases if the components settle to the ground near populated areas.

Workers involved in making or transporting JP-4 or in refueling military aircraft that use JP-4 might breathe air containing it. They might also spill some on their skin. Occupational data from 1981 to 1983 show that about 4,866 workers employed in 633 plants might have been exposed to JP-4.

No information is available specifically on exposure of individuals to JP-7. However, it is similar in composition to JP-4 and it is reasonable to assume that you could be exposed to it in the same way as described above for JP-4.

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1.4 How can jet fuels JP-4 and JP-7 enter and leave my body?
JP-4 and JP-7 can enter your bloodstream when you breathe them in, when you drink water containing them, or when your skin comes in contact with them. This can occur in the workplace or if you live near a manufacturing facility or an Air Force base. We do not know how much of the compounds your body might take up if you breathe them, drink them, or get them on your skin. We have no information on what happens to these chemical mixtures once they enter your body. We do not know if they remain in any tissues in the body. We also do not know whether these compounds leave the body in the urine or feces.

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1.5 How can jet fuels JP-4 and JP-7 affect my health?
We know very little about the human health effects caused by JP-4 and JP-7. Breathing in large amounts of JP-4 would cause you to feel suffocated and breathing would be painful. Animal studies showed that breathing in extremely high levels of JP-4 and JP-7 does not cause death. We do not know if breathing in large amounts could cause death in people. Breathing in high levels of JP-4 has caused harmful effects on the nervous system. Some of the nervous system effects in people include headache, dizziness, nausea, depression, anxiety, memory loss, and irritability. Nervous system effects have occurred in people exposed to vapor from jet fuels like JP-4 for short and long periods in their jobs. Laboratory animals that breathed very high levels of JP-4 vapor for a short time developed nervous system effects, including poor coordination and convulsions. In lower doses, JP-4 vapor has caused animals to have a depressed level of activity compared with animals that were not exposed. Experimental animals have also had decreased numbers of white blood cells after breathing JP-4 vapor. Changes in liver cells have also been seen in animals exposed to either JP-4 or JP-7 vapor. Studies in animals show that both JP-4 and JP-7 can cause skin and eye irritation. JP-4 may cause skin cancer in mice or rats after exposure by skin contact. The data about cancer effects from breathing in JP-4 or JP-7 are not clear-cut. No data about cancer effects exist for exposure to JP-4 or JP-7 by eating or drinking. We do not know if JP-4 or JP-7 causes cancer in people. We do not have any information on whether JP-4 or JP-7 can cause birth defects or if they affect reproduction.

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1.6 Is there a medical test to determine whether I have been exposed to jet fuels JP-4 and JP-7?
There is no medical test that shows if you have been exposed to JP-4 or JP-7. For information on tests for measuring exposure to some individual components of jet fuels, see the ATSDR toxicological profiles on benzene, toluene, xylene, and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.

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1.7 What recommendations has the federal government made to protect human health?
The government has developed regulations and guidelines for JP-4 and JP-7 and the chemicals in them. These are designed to protect the public from the possible harmful health effects of the chemicals.

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) and the Air Force Office of Safety and Health (AFOSH) regulate levels of petroleum products in the workplace. The maximum allowable amount of petroleum distillates in workroom air during an 8-hour workday, 40-hour workweek, is 500 parts per million (ppm).

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1.8 Where can I get more information?
If you have any more questions or concerns, please contact your community or state health or environmental quality department or:

Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry
Division of Toxicology
1600 Clifton Road NE, Mailstop E-29
Atlanta, GA 30333

Information line and technical assistance:

Phone: 888-422-8737
FAX: (404)498-0093
ATSDR can also tell you the location of occupational and environmental health clinics. These clinics specialize in recognizing, evaluating, and treating illnesses resulting from exposure to hazardous substances.

To order toxicological profiles, contact:

National Technical Information Service
5285 Port Royal Road
Springfield, VA 22161
Phone: 800-553-6847 or 703-605-600

[jayreynolds]

Leokopoulos wrote:
"At the first chance that i'll have I'll give you pictures of ...trails (for conversation's sake I am not calling them contrails or chemtrails) in Greece that proove that the white gasses left behind by airliners demonstrate odd atidute to say the least, looking like fall outs."

Would your photos look like these CONTRAIL photos, Liakopoulos?

http://www.wolkenatlas.de/wolken/wo12507.htm

http://www.wolkenatlas.de/wolken/wo01727.htm

http://www.wolkenatlas.de/wolken/wo12508.htm

Do you note a superficial resemblance to the process occurring in the contrails above, also occurring in the naturall formed clouds here?:

http://www.wolkenatlas.de/wolken/wo13414.htm

==========================
Looks like you know the answer, don't you, Liakopoulos?
"for conversation's sake I am not calling them contrails or chemtrails)"

[gaiacomm]

To GAIACOMM: I congratulate you on the calm way of dealing with the "Raynolds" phenomenon. To ENVIRONMAN: I am glad that you answered for me ,since I have limited time to spend at this forum. Thank you. Fom me, time is a luxury I do not have in abundance. So having to reply to"JAY'S" THREATS AND INSULTS, leaves me no time to do what I am supposed to do in this forum. I must say though, that I find it most tempting to expose someone who is a WINNER IN HIS OWN MIND ,being actually mr nobody. Please let me to contribute to this conversation by stating the fact that aluminum exists in the JP series airplane fuel. So its oxiedes eventually emerge with the exaust gasses of the jet engines. A simple tracer action in altavista can proove that. If we can agree on that, then we can start talking instead of giving parallel monologs. Thank you all.


Thank you!

You keep up the great work as well.

[liakopoulos]

HERE IS WHAT TELLER SAYS:Environmental Issues
Edward Teller Advances Global Warming Cure Nuclear physicist Edward Teller says that the jury is still out on whether or not greenhouse gases are leading to global warming, but that contemporary technology offers considerably cheaper options for addressing any global warming effects than politicians and environmentalists are considering.

One approach, first proposed by theorist Freeman Dyson in 1979, would counteract any warming effect of greenhouse gases by diminishing by about 1 percent the amount of sunlight reaching the Earth's surface.

This could be done by deliberately introducing fine particles -- such as those thrown up naturally from volcanoes -- into the upper atmosphere to scatter sunlight and heat back into space.

Such a solution might cost as much as $1 billion a year -- or just $100 million if technologically advanced options were employed.

That would be between 0.1 percent and 1 percent of the $100 billion a year it is estimated would be required to price-ration fossil fuel usage down to 1990 levels in the United States alone.
Teller says that cooling caused by volcanic eruptions shows this technique would work. For exmaple, the erruption of Mexico's El Chichon in the 1980s cooled the Northern Hemisphere by about one-quarter as much as the average prediction for global warming expected by 2100.

According to Teller, the director of the U.S. Global Change Research Program's Coordination Office has been promoting such geoengineering for three decades, and one National Academy of Sciences report a few years ago commented on "the relatively low costs at which some of the geoengineering options might be implemented."

Teller and his colleagues presented their proposal for geoengineering at the 22nd International Seminar on Planetary Emergencies in August 1997.

Source: Edward Teller (director emeritus, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory), "The Planet Needs a Sunscreen," Wall Street Journal, October 17, 1997.

[gaiacomm]

Jay;

Why not present your facts of what you know in your own words on chemtrails?

I do have a question...I need to build a toilet for my boat could you help?
Marine engineering does deal with toilets too right?

Jay, I read all your letters and requests even the ones that you did not post and you seem to be a reasonable person so why the attacks on others? Are you afraid of something or have you finally found a place where nobody can harm you and steal your farm again!

[jayreynolds]

ha, ha, ha!
Liakopoulos is posting about two jet fuels, JP-4 and Jp-7.

JP-4 is a wide cut distillate of kerosene and naptha, very similar to gasoline, JP-8 has replaced JP-4 in almost every case, as the US military has gone to JP-8 as an "all-purpose fuel"

JP-7 is a rarely used synthetic jet fuel developed for high altitude reconnaisance planes such as the SR-71.

Now, are you contending that jet fuel is harmful if breathed?
No argument, so is automobile petrol and diesel.

However, if you are trying to say that jet fuel is being sprayed at 30,000 feet, and reaching the ground over Greece, you simply haven't done any computations regarding plume spreading, dispertion, etc. The idea is quite laughable for those who did the computations, Mr. "Professor". Note that even 'Sore' has dropped that claim, as it was laid to rest years ago.

You are in the big leagues now, Liakopoulos, not dealing with a set of nodding chihuahua doggies in the back window of an old car. It's becoming clear just how far behind the 8-ball you really are!

next.......

[gaiacomm]

You worked for Hess oil?
Well this link shows how Hess and others are major violators of pollution!

http://www.environmentaldefense.org/documents/1586_Facility%20Rankings.htm

[gaiacomm]

http://www.hess.com/index2.htm

They are so nice!

Polluters! Chemtrails?

[gaiacomm]

Jay;

You do know know about chemtrails!

http://www.house.gov/reform/min/pdfs/pdf_inves/pdf_enviro_oil_refine_rep.pdf

[liakopoulos]

Not quite Jay, what you will all eventually see happened before my very eyes. Unfortunatelly I'll give you the photos tomorrow because I have them in mini DV and not in the hard disk. I have videotaped two aircraft flying at the same time, at the same hight. The ...trail of the first dissapeared in 25 secs,the ...trail of the other remained and dispersed. How about that. Same altitude ,same time ,same temperature. Obviously not the same exhaust gasses.

[gaiacomm]

http://mhswebtvprinting.tripod.com/wrcindex.html

[gaiacomm]

Jay;

Tell Karen we all say hello! Does she read these as well?

[jayreynolds]

Liakopoulos wrote:
"HERE IS WHAT TELLER SAYS:Environmental Issues
Edward Teller Advances Global Warming Cure Nuclear physicist Edward Teller says that the jury is still out on whether or not greenhouse gases are leading to global warming.

This could be............
Such a solution might...............
........it is estimated..............

"the relatively low costs at which some of the geoengineering options might be implemented."

Liakopoulos, Mr Teller is a smart man, no doubt. Were you aware he also "proposed" to use nuclear bombs to dig out new harbors where such were needed but not available?

That "proposal" never got off the ground, either.

The case against geoengineering by jet aircraft being a "low-cost" option was addressed early on in this debate. The actual report data shows it would take 100,000 fully loaded flights of 747 aircraft each 83 days to make it work.

Where are these planes?

The best low-cost alternative was actually naval artillery. Heard any dull thuds lately?

[gaiacomm]

Jay;

I sure wish you would stick to one side::::::::


Upon returning from 12 years offshore, Jay was astonished at the changes he found in his nation. The loss of American rights, the submersion of sovereignty, lowering of educational achievement, and the decline of America's preeminence in manufacturing were especially troubling. Seeking answers and solutions, he allied with William Cooper, a great American who has been documenting these changes and their possible outcomes. Jay's research has helped in the production of a newspaper, VERITAS, the Harvest-Trust website, and Mr. Cooper's nightly broadcast "The Hour of the Time". His writing has been featured on several websites and newspapers, and he hopes to provide the best information possible, fully documented and verifiable by any reader. He is willing to listen to all viewpoints and strives to establish reality based on factual information and logical analysis. His work has been completely without remuneration and is for the benefit of all.

[liakopoulos]

JAY WROTEYou are in the big leagues now, Liakopoulos, not dealing with a set of nodding chihuahua doggies DON'T FLATTER YOURSELF JAY. THIS IS NOT A BIG LEAGUE .I am also sorry because for a moment I came to believe that you could get serious

[gaiacomm]

Jay;

For comments you and others made and etc!



https://tips.fbi.gov/

[liakopoulos]

I never said that they are spraying fuel

[liakopoulos]

Hey JAY ,are the FEDs after you?

[liakopoulos]

Hey Jay, dig thishttp://www.atsdr.cdc.gov:55555/toxprofiles/tp121-c3.pdf

[liakopoulos]

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov:55555/toxprofiles/tp121-c3.pdf

[gaiacomm]

Jay;

There is freedom of speech but racist remarks, threats and other violations of civil rights are not permitted anywhere and since this forum can be viewed by the public including minors it places this forum in violation. I am sure now that Arianna or her staff will be contacted.

Jay, I suggest you leave this place!

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

This forum was created to allow us all to voice our opinions and concerns and refrain from attacks, threats and slander.

Halva wished to start a thread that would encourage readers to ad or comment on chemtrails. Then you get the ones that follow this subject like some mutated virus that won't go away.

Well the only vaccine is the LAW! Its to bad that we have to call on Big Brother to be a moderator on this forum but it sends a message to Jay and his supporters that we have zero tolerance for this type of conduct.

Jay if you and your supporters stop posting here I will also go away with you all and leave these people to express themselves without the insults.

Jay, lets you and me go somewhere else and leave these people alone!

No defeat no winners no losers!

Jay just be reasonable!

[liakopoulos]

I 'LL COME TO. I LIKE GAICOMM'S WAY OF THINKIN' ,AND JAY IS LIKE A BAD HABBIT.

[halva]

Anyone who is really fed up and/or bored with J.R. and company and doesn't feel any necessity to stay here on principle can go to Megasprayer.

http://chem11.proboards2.com/

[gaiacomm]

I 'LL COME TO. I LIKE GAICOMM'S WAY OF THINKIN' ,AND JAY IS LIKE A BAD HABBIT.


Thank you! I respect your views as well!

[gaiacomm]

Anyone who is really fed up and/or bored with J.R. and company and doesn't feel any necessity to stay here on principle can go to Megasprayer.

http://chem11.proboards2.com/

Halva:

Great forum!

But I think you all started something here and should stand your ground. I and others will take Jay with us!

[gaiacomm]

Jay and supporters of Jay;

I am waiting for your answer!

The complaint has been filed with the appropiate agencies so I am just publicly giving you and your supporters a way out!

And Jay you know that the agencies have to take all complaints very seriously!

I am waiting!

[letxa2000]

Not quite Jay, what you will all eventually see happened before my very eyes. Unfortunatelly I'll give you the photos tomorrow because I have them in mini DV and not in the hard disk. I have videotaped two aircraft flying at the same time, at the same hight. The ...trail of the first dissapeared in 25 secs,the ...trail of the other remained and dispersed. How about that. Same altitude ,same time ,same temperature. Obviously not the same exhaust gasses.

I look forward to seeing the images and/or video, as well as an explanation of how you determined that they were flying at the same height.

[liakopoulos]

Quite simple. Same kind of aircraft, projected at the same size at the maximum zoom on the camera screen. Not very scientific ,but gives only a narrow window of error.

[letxa2000]

Quite simple. Same kind of aircraft, projected at the same size at the maximum zoom on the camera screen. Not very scientific ,but gives only a narrow window of error.

I look forward to seeing it.

[Enviroman]

But also to be fair, "Size" of the object is more relevant in regards to liquids than solids. Radars are calibrated for larger drops like rain and not clouds, but if it is solids, then that is different, because you are dealing purely with radar reflection and there is no resonance occurance.

Like when the Columbia was lost, there was a very large trail left in the atmosphere which was VERY detectable on the airborne precipitation (I prefer that term than "weather" radar, because there is always weather, even if it is not precipitating) radar.

So that could be a tell tail sign of of a release of metallic type particles, if you saw a similar return on radars.

Some other options you have to help you compile real data :

When I worked at an airport during college, we would often keep expired navigational charts around to give out free, instead of just tossing them. If you can find a FBO (fixed base operator) at the airport that sells charts, you can ask if they have any expired ones you can have. You can tell them it is for some flight sims at home.

If you want to do airport photography at a small airport, that is usually pretty easy. At bigger ones, at least with fences, security, you can probably go tell the security or police beforehand who you are and want you want to do.

Just do not try that in Greece though. Airport/airbase photography is not legal there I believe. Its a bit different in US, where there are many more airports, and many are private

[jayreynolds]

Liakopoulos wrote:
"Not quite Jay, what you will all eventually see happened before my very eyes. Unfortunatelly I'll give you the photos tomorrow because I have them in mini DV and not in the hard disk. I have videotaped two aircraft flying at the same time, at the same hight. The ...trail of the first dissapeared in 25 secs,the ...trail of the other remained and dispersed. How about that. Same altitude ,same time ,same temperature. Obviously not the same exhaust gasses.

I agree that two aircraft do not create the same exhaust gases, each produces it's own!

You have posted toxic data on JP-4, JP-5, JP7, and JP-8 fuels. Those are all military designations for jet fuels.

Why haven'tyou posted toxic data on Jet A-1 type jet fuel, used in civilian jets, and why haven't you posted toxic data for dielsel fuel?

Why post any of those items at all?

Did you post them because early chemtrail speculation was based on the idea that jet fuel was being "sprayed"?

Simply put, Liakopoulos, it already takes all the jet fuel produced worldwide to make the contrails you already see, there simply is no more left to spray all over God's creation!

First of all, were the airplanes traveling parallel or intersecting courses, east, west, north, south, what were the headings of each plane?

What aircraft type were they(you say they were identical size)?

Is persistence of a contrail evidence that it is not an ordinary contrail?

Exactly how homogenous do you expect the atmosphere to be?

Which of the following is true:
a. Only ripe olives are served onboard Greek ships.
b. One should always keep one's backside against the wall while sailing on a Greek ship.
c. If one drops the soap while showering on a Greek ship, never bend over to pick it up.
d. None of the above, showering is not encouraged onboard Greek ships.

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

This forum was created to allow us all to voice our opinions and concerns and refrain from attacks, threats and slander.

Halva wished to start a thread that would encourage readers to ad or comment on chemtrails. Then you get the ones that follow this subject like some mutated virus that won't go away.

Well the only vaccine is the LAW! Its to bad that we have to call on Big Brother to be a moderator on this forum but it sends a message to Jay and his supporters that we have zero tolerance for this type of conduct.

Jay if you and your supporters stop posting here I will also go away with you all and leave these people to express themselves without the insults.

Jay, lets you and me go somewhere else and leave these people alone!

No defeat no winners no losers!

Jay just be reasonable!

[Enviroman]

I must admit I am getting confused again, which is not a difficult thing to accomplish :)

But from some of the previous messages seem to suggest "chemtrails" is pollution resulting from normal aviation, and other messages suggest it is something else different, as in a deliberate chemical release.

Can someone clear it up for me?

Thanks again!!!

[foot_soldier]

[foot_soldier]

[foot_soldier]

This is a normal situation:

[foot_soldier]

I hope this clears up your confusion, Enviroman.

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

This forum was created to allow us all to voice our opinions and concerns and refrain from attacks, threats and slander.

Halva wished to start a thread that would encourage readers to ad or comment on chemtrails. Then you get the ones that follow this subject like some mutated virus that won't go away.

Well the only vaccine is the LAW! Its to bad that we have to call on Big Brother to be a moderator on this forum but it sends a message to Jay and his supporters that we have zero tolerance for this type of conduct.

Jay if you and your supporters stop posting here I will also go away with you all and leave these people to express themselves without the insults.

Jay, lets you and me go somewhere else and leave these people alone!

No defeat no winners no losers!

Jay just be reasonable!

[jayreynolds]

Well, well. And so, we get back to posting pictures of contrails.

After 25 pages of asking, not a single "chemtrail" cultist will dare to even try answering ten simple questions about their claims.

In 25 pages of asking, not a single "chemtrail" cultist will dare to even show any proof able to withstand the slightest scrutiny.

What did they try?

To begin with, 'Sore' and halva concentrated on the geoengineering claim.
Their "proof" consisted of articles ripped from websites which spoke of PROPOSALS and THINK-TANK WHAT-IFS.
Their main website was found to be in error, claiming that 1010 kg of material could affect earth's climate, A REALLY SAD JOKE.
Turns out the REAL SCIENTIFIC PAPER WAS MISQUOTED, and the real quantity of material it would take to affect earth's climate was 10 BILLION kg, which would take 100,000 flights of loaded 747 aircraft every 83 days.

Then in come the "Patent POSERS", carrying loads of patents, some of which actually have nothing to do with anything off a desktop, BUT PATENTS ARE JUST IDEAS, CLAIMS. I can show you the most silly patents imaginable, none of which will ever get off the drawing board.

Then comes the BARIUM BALONEY, with a chart that, on it's surface seems to show an increase in airborne barium in California. But when you look at the underlying data, you find two sites IN LOS ANGELES can be attributed for the rise in barium, showing that the rise is associated with a GROUND SOURCE,not airplanes. Along with that, a two year old promise to get lab analysis by 'Sore' turned out to have never been undertaken, SOME KIND OF PHONY ACTIVIST HE TURNED OUT TO BE!

Then comes Giacomm, a certified nutcase, and one who halva encouraged and actually congratulated for showing up here, posting complete nonsense, making them all look like a bunch of lunatics. Well, newcoers might not have known it, BUT HALVA HAD PREVIOUSLY CALLED FOR GIACOM"S BANNING AT CHEMTRAILCENTRAL.COM BECAUSE HE WAS WRECKING THEIR CREDIBILITY"

And lastly comes Liakopoulos, who when looked at closely and prodded a little, showed himself to have a hidden agenda, that he wants to blame whatever, including chemtrails, on the Jews, he's a racist anti-semite. plain and simple. Liakopoulos has gone on TV in front of lots of people, according to my informants, pushing the chemtrail hoax. No way is he backing off no matter what, he's in it for life, becauise if he backs down, he is telling people the rest of his stuff is garbage too. He's doomed to live chemtrails down, the rest of his miserable life, like it or not.

So we come to page 26, and the rats might indeed be scurrying off to chem11 land, where they can once again insulate themselves in the "HIVE" and lick their wounds. They may come in with furious talk like angry cyborgs, but they leave whimpering like small dogs.

They had 26 pages to show what they had to give in full view of the host, Mrs. Arianna Huffington. A lady with national and even international recognition, somebody who really IS SOMEBODY.

And guess what they went and did?

THEY BLEW IT.

[foot_soldier]

Forgot to post this one. How do you like this photo of a normal situation created by normal contrails, Mr. Reynolds? Do you like the way this looks? Thank you.

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

This forum was created to allow us all to voice our opinions and concerns and refrain from attacks, threats and slander.

Halva wished to start a thread that would encourage readers to ad or comment on chemtrails. Then you get the ones that follow this subject like some mutated virus that won't go away.

Well the only vaccine is the LAW! Its to bad that we have to call on Big Brother to be a moderator on this forum but it sends a message to Jay and his supporters that we have zero tolerance for this type of conduct.

Jay if you and your supporters stop posting here I will also go away with you all and leave these people to express themselves without the insults.

Jay, lets you and me go somewhere else and leave these people alone!

No defeat no winners no losers!

Jay just be reasonable!

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

This forum was created to allow us all to voice our opinions and concerns and refrain from attacks, threats and slander.

Halva wished to start a thread that would encourage readers to ad or comment on chemtrails. Then you get the ones that follow this subject like some mutated virus that won't go away.

Well the only vaccine is the LAW! Its to bad that we have to call on Big Brother to be a moderator on this forum but it sends a message to Jay and his supporters that we have zero tolerance for this type of conduct.

Jay if you and your supporters stop posting here I will also go away with you all and leave these people to express themselves without the insults.

Jay, lets you and me go somewhere else and leave these people alone!

No defeat no winners no losers!

Jay just be reasonable!

Jay I apppreciate the comments you make about me and I will always will remember how you took the time to let me know.

I am sure that your wife Karen would be a lilttle taken back and your children if they knew that you had such a different persona on the internet.

There have been people that have been offended with your remarks including children that happen to admire Arianna and have commented that they find your views offensive and rude. This data along with other info will be passed on to the law enforcement offices to decide rather to investigate. This of course will become public if just reason is found.

So Jay I suggest you cease soon!

You see Jay, keep in mind that we can all post what we want until someone decides to prosecute, then we have to stop!
So maybe you can be the fall guy this time!

So keep posting if you dare!
And if you do you might wish to clean it up, children are watching!

[gaiacomm]

One last thought Jay;

No matter what you say, Chemtrails are real and will be eventually proven over time. And you Jay, you will fade into black!

[Enviroman]

I am glad some photos were included, but however, it is going towards what I was trying to say should be avoided. You dont want to have a situation were it is being decided on perception and what someone "feels" is normal.

What would be best to include with a photo, is HOW it is not normal, and what specific guidelines one can use so one can decide it on their own, so that it does not rely on. You do not want to leave it open for opinions, you want to make it so when you have applicable guidelines and criteria, so it isnt about feelings. You want to give specific reasons, and leave nothing to be open ended.

Remember, you are wanting to convince those who may not share your view, or those who are not as inclined to share your same beliefs.

[halva]

Following the terrrorist attacks in Spain, NATO is now taking over responsibility for security at the Athens Olympic Games.

The leftist parties are screaming about this, and getting ready to campaign.

But the focus of the campaign should be the Pentagon report that started this discussion thread. and the Pentagon view that climatic change is a worse threat than terrorism.

Let us turn the Pentagon against NATO.

[halva]

Anyone interested in the subject of continuity should read the thread at Megasprayer from immediately prior to my first posting here:

http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Discussion&num=1075386432&start=0


That triggered Reynolds intervention so that he could continue talking about subjects that interest him, and about which he has been declaiming with unchanging monotony for at least five years.

They are off topic for this thread at Arianna's forum.

[foot_soldier]

"Enviroman" wrote:


You dont want to have a situation were it is being decided on perception and what someone "feels" is normal.

No, I sure don't. God forbid. That's why I provided the material on Pages 18-19.

I hope it will be of some use, sometime, somewhere.

Good Bye.

[halva]

Footsoldier we would be honoured to have you with us at Megaprayer if you can't put up any more with the imbecilic debunker input here.

Thank you for your superb contribution to the discussion.

[Enviroman]

I like your signature Halva. I wish more in the environmental movements could learn to present data and theories without alarmist talk, or when they assume we are all stupid and can only protect someplace if we are shown pictures of cute fuzzy animals, instead of taking part in a rational debate of science and issues.

[halva]

Thank you Environman.

[halva]

THE PENTAGON SAYS CLIMATE CHANGE IS A BIGGER THREAT THAN TERRORISM

YES TO THE PENTAGON, NO TO NATO

[jayreynolds]

halva said he wanted debate.
Once he got it he ran away.
Be careful what you ask for.
You might just get it.

[halva]

What do you mean run away?

I haven't run away.

But I'm not going to discuss off-topic issues just because it suits you.

It doesn't suit anyone interested in the initial subject matter of this thread: the Pentagon report on climate change.

[jayreynolds]

You will not be allowed to participate at chem11 proboards.

[jayreynolds]

In his opening thread on page one, halva wrote:
"It is time for there to be exposure, and honest public debate, about what is ALREADY being done by the proponents of geoengineering 'solutions'."

His sentence is a challenge to debate what halva says is "ALREADY BEING DONE" to accomplish geoengineering. halva has repeatedly claimed that CHEMTRAILS are what is "ALREADY BEING DONE". he is taking the affirmative position in debate that chemtrails are a reality.

I will take the negative position, that "chemtrails" are nothing more than ordinary contrails.


Please answer the following basic questions, or present your factual case to support your claim above.

Either you will engage in debate on topic, or you concede that after 27 pages, you cannot yet answer even the most basic questions regarding your claim.
============

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. What is your claim about the purpose of "chemtrails, what are they for?

[letxa2000]

THE PENTAGON SAYS CLIMATE CHANGE IS A BIGGER THREAT THAN TERRORISM

Actually, the Pentagon said no such thing. You've been reading too much inaccurate reporting and doing too little research yourself.

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

This forum was created to allow us all to voice our opinions and concerns and refrain from attacks, threats and slander.

Halva wished to start a thread that would encourage readers to ad or comment on chemtrails. Then you get the ones that follow this subject like some mutated virus that won't go away.

Well the only vaccine is the LAW! Its to bad that we have to call on Big Brother to be a moderator on this forum but it sends a message to Jay and his supporters that we have zero tolerance for this type of conduct.

Jay if you and your supporters stop posting here I will also go away with you all and leave these people to express themselves without the insults.

Jay, lets you and me go somewhere else and leave these people alone!

No defeat no winners no losers!

Jay just be reasonable!

Jay I apppreciate the comments you make about me and I will always will remember how you took the time to let me know.

I am sure that your wife Karen would be a lilttle taken back and your children if they knew that you had such a different persona on the internet.

There have been people that have been offended with your remarks including children that happen to admire Arianna and have commented that they find your views offensive and rude. This data along with other info will be passed on to the law enforcement offices to decide rather to investigate. This of course will become public if just reason is found.

So Jay I suggest you cease soon!

You see Jay, keep in mind that we can all post what we want until someone decides to prosecute, then we have to stop!
So maybe you can be the fall guy this time!

So keep posting if you dare!
And if you do you might wish to clean it up, children are watching!

[gaiacomm]

One last thought Jay;

No matter what you say, Chemtrails are real and will be eventually proven over time. And you Jay, you will fade into black!

[jayreynolds]

'halva' wrote:
"It is time for there to be exposure, and honest public debate, about what is ALREADY being done by the proponents of geoengineering 'solutions'."

Bring it on, halva, don't tell all your fellows to run away to chem11 proboards and hide from the public.

There will be no "honest public debate" there, because that is a website that doesn't allow debate over the "reality of chemtrails". It is run by chem-cultists who have no nterest at all in honest debate, and you well know it.

[halva]

When I first posted here the point that I wanted to make clear to Mrs. Huffington and those influenced by her is that it is not only the politics of President Bush that is 'fooling with Mother Nature' but that there is another dimension to the climate change question: geoengineering, proposals concerning which are put forward by all sections of the relevant technically qualified political establishment, not just those associated with the Republican Party or President Bush's faction of it, but also Democrats and non-party 'technocrats'.

I also asserted that geoengineering is not a question merely of theory but also of practice, but this is a secondary issue, and with the thirty pages of rhetoric that has now been devoted to both sides of it (whether to your satisfaction or not), the most important point - that no present-day discussion of climate change can avoid geoengineering - has been quite adequately made for any impartial observer, and for me, so that it would be fitting to end the digression and revert to the basic topic of this thread, which is the Pentagon paper on climate change.

You and your disciples may argue that the paper in question does not reflect the views of the Pentagon, but in my judgement you will have about as much success persuading the public of this, at least in Europe, as 'chemmies' have so far had success in persuading the the general public that chemtrails are not contrails.

[gaiacomm]

One last thought Jay;

No matter what you say, Chemtrails are real and will be eventually proven over time. And you Jay, you will fade into black!

[Sore Throat]

What we have today campers is more "Aviation-Induced High Cirrus Clouds producing Filtered Sunshine"

You gotta like that term, "Filtered Sunshine".

Interesting how commonplace that has become to our daily weather-readers.

************************************************** **********

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/orl-edpweaver11031104mar11,1,2565222.story

Abrupt climate change
Cutting back on fossil fuels urgent for national security

By Lynn E. Weaver

A new element has been added to the debate over global warming, taking it far beyond the realm of just another environmental issue. Scientific experts and even specialists in the Pentagon are recognizing it as a major threat to our economy and even our national security.

It's clearly time for the government to recognize the urgency, to stop the delaying and rationalizing, and to set the country on a clear strategy of cutting back sharply on the amounts of fossil fuels that we burn.

At the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, Robert Gagosian, director of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Massachusetts, said that policy-makers must begin considering the possibility that abrupt climate change could begin taking place within the next two decades. This could have massive implications for our society and our economy.

And now the Pentagon's strategic planners are apparently taking the threat seriously and recognizing the risk to our national security. Defense Department analysts are examining the potential impact of violent weather patterns and the economic, social and political upheavals that could result. Recent studies show warming's impact in the Arctic, where the sea ice is in retreat, and its potentially devastating effect on Alaska's fragile tundra. Climate researchers say that some regions of the world could be hit by megadroughts, while unpredictable monsoons in others could cause catastrophic flooding.

Beyond the economic destruction that could be visited on the United States, the damage to developing countries might make the problems between "have" and "have-not" nations far more severe, leading to increased world unrest.

Rather than recognize the urgency of this threat, politicians continue to see it as a pawn in their verbal battles. They use it to score points, usually without taking the implications seriously or proposing solutions that have any chance of actually working.

The problem is simple. The industrialized world, and particularly the United States, is burning vast quantities of fossil fuels -- oil, coal and natural gas -- which release carbon dioxide and heat up the environment. The challenge is to back off from fossil fuels and make greater use of energy sources that release little or no greenhouse gases.

Unfortunately, politicians who lean to the right largely ignore the problem and try to wish it away. If they pose any solutions, they are long-term -- nothing that would change our energy-use patterns today. They seem to want us to produce and burn more oil, gas and coal, not use less.

And just as unfortunately, politicians who lean to the left tend to grossly simplify the issue. They pretend that if we voluntarily cut back on our energy use, drive smaller cars and begin relying more on alternative-energy sources like wind and the sun, the problem will disappear. They don't want to acknowledge the obvious -- that solar and wind alone cannot meet the enormous energy needs of our cities or our transportation.

If we were taking the climate-change risk seriously, there would be a national energy strategy -- with adequate resources committed -- to meet it. Our government officials would be informing and motivating the public to support it. And it would be based not on one or two simplistic slogans, but on the full range of alternatives that will be necessary to meet this pressing problem.

The plan would provide greater incentives for all of us to use energy more efficiently and cut back further on waste. And it would encourage the use of solar, wind, geothermal and other renewable-energy sources everywhere they make technical and economic sense. Beyond that the strategy would speed up the development of hydrogen-fuel cells, especially as fuel for automobiles, and expand the use of nuclear power, which provides carbon-free energy.

The new advanced design of nuclear-power plants offer even greater benefits, in terms of cost, reliability, safety and security. And over the long term, they can produce the hydrogen that can help replace fossil fuels in automobiles.

Time is a key factor in the introduction of new energy sources, for it takes 15 to 20 years before they can have a major impact on our energy budget.

The country needs to act now to ensure social stability and national security.

Lynn E. Weaver is the president emeritus of the Florida Institute of Technology in Melbourne. He wrote this commentary for the Orlando Sentinel.

[halva]

'We face climate disaster'
By Ben Leapman, Evening Standard Political Reporter

The Government's chief scientist today set out an "apocalyptic vision"
of global warming bringing back the conditions which drove the dinosaurs
to extinction.

Professor Sir David King told a House of Lords committee that urgent
action was needed "within the next few years" to avert the threat of
sudden and severe climate change.

He claimed that last summer's heatwave was a man-made event and a
warning sign of worse to come.

And he defied Downing Street by repeating his charges that global
warming is a bigger threat than terrorism, and that Washington is
failing to tackle the problem.

On a recent trip to America to talk about the threat of global warming,
Sir David was warned by Downing Street to limit his contact with the media.

A memo from a No10 aide was leaked to a journalist in Seattle, where the
scientist was delivering a lecture.

Today, Sir David told the peers that the level of carbon dioxide in the
atmosphere was probably the highest it had been for 65 million years,
since the Palaeocene epoch when most dinosaurs became extinct.

He said the era saw a "massive reduction" in life on earth and added:
"The Antarctic was the best place to be at that time. The rest of the
world was virtually uninhabitable."

He also delivered a thinly-veiled attack on President George Bush by
praising the effort which individual American states were making to curb
their carbon dioxide emissions, in the absence of a ruling from Washington.

And he accused American oil giant Exxon of funding lobbyists who are
trying to undermine the consensus on global warming by suggesting that
scientists are divided on the nature of the problem.

Sir David said: "This is the biggest issue for us to face this century.

"It's man-made. The science is done. It's complete. It's a matter of
political understanding. I personally have little doubt that
unfortunately, as time moves on, the global warming events such as the
very high temperatures in Europe over the past summer and the flooding
two years before will occur more frequently, and the understanding of
what's driving these will become more apparent.

"And I think nations across the world will understand... that action has
to be taken."

In the past few centuries, carbon dioxide in the air has risen from 270
to 370 parts per million and is still on the increase, Sir David said.

He predicted that if the level reached 550 parts per million, the polar
ice caps would melt and the Gulf Stream current would be reversed,
plunging Europe into a new ice age while the rest of the globe overheated.

To avoid that threat, he said, the level needed to be stabilised at 450
parts per million.

[Bonehead9]

Here is a chilly blast from the past (http://www.globalclimate.org/Newsweek.htm)

Was it only a little over 25 years ago when we thought we were headed into a new ice age?

[Bonehead9]

Another take on the "pentagon report." (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCommentary.asp?Page=%5CCommentary%5Carchive%5C 200402%5CCOM20040210e.html)

:D

Let's be sure to look at all side of the issue shall we?

[Bonehead9]

FWIW some interesting data on the Little Ice Age (http://www.grisda.org/origins/10051.htm).

[Bonehead9]

Uh, Oh are we really heading into another little ice age? (http://mitosyfraudes.8k.com/Calen/Landscheidt-1.html)

[jayreynolds]

It has now been stated by halva that he will not attempt to debate what he previously said he would debate.

halva's original challenge read:

"It is time for there to be exposure, and honest public debate, about what is ALREADY being done by the proponents of geoengineering 'solutions'."

Halva has conceded, by non-participation, that no proof exists of "chemtrails" whatsoever, just as his Greek friend Nikos Katsaros said, and that he cannot debate the subject. halva also refuses to even attempt an answer to the most basic questions about the subject he most passionately speaks about where genuine open and honest debate is not allowed. This further demonstrates the factual and logical poverty of halvas arguments.

It has also been made clear that 'Sore', who originally stated:

"The key question is whether such contrails are in fact artifically enhanced through burning rich engine mixtures, high sulfur content fuel, metallic particles and/or polymers, is still an issue of debate."

'Sore' did actually take a minor shot at supporting the idea of "rich engine mixtures. He was shot down by factual inconsistencies which show that particular conjecture ludicrous..

'Sore' never even addressed the other three "issues of debate" he originally challenged with. In the end, 'Sore' went down hard, just like all "chemtrail" cultists, shot down in flames when his rhetoric was exposed as mere speculation, false data and unsupported claims, phony 'activism', and empty promises.

And so, the "chemtrail" cult has returned with a strategy of continued refusal to engage in substantive debate at a forum dedicated to such debate, and in a thread where they themselves made the original challenge to debate. For what else can they really do? Beaten and battered, they can only exist in a state of denial, and hope no one notices what really happened.

You chemmies take others for fools such as yourselves, ha.

Their new strategy is standard cut/copy/paste of news stories, functions suited to low achieving lowbrows, satisfied to simply hold their hands over their ears and chant n-na-na-na-na-I-can't-hear-you!! As if quantity of propaganda could ever counter real truth brought out by challenges, demonstrated by facts, and logic that reduces ill-logic to ashes.

I am quite satisfied to see them reduced to such a course.

To see them rendered like unto ostriches, deaf-mute, and accomplishing absolutely nothing. Fought back into small cages where they mutter and slobber, tiny, insignificant, and pitiful.

[jayreynolds]

"Here is a chilly blast from the past

Was it only a little over 25 years ago when we thought we were headed into a new ice age?"

Well, about time somebody reproduced one of those old articles. Somewhere in storage I have a paperback book from the 1970's which carried the same message:

ICE AGE COMING!

Yeah, right. It's really as if these people think nobody will notice that last summer they were crying about warming, and this winter they are crying about cooling. I'm sure as soon as it gets about 80 degrees in Boston, somebody will start blaming the heat wave on the upcoming ice age!

The inside word is that those two guys that wrote that phony paper were really cia white-propaganda masters, and the piece they wrote was designed specifically to allow people like halva and 'Sore' to discredit themselves by beginning a flip-flop that would ruin their credibility. Looks like it's working as intended.
[/quote]

[GreenDragon]

Excuse me,buit is water not a chemical? Oh that's right it is a chemical ,Dihydrogen Monoxide(H2O).I'll be damned according to IUPAC water is a chemical .So therefore contrails are Chemtrails .You lose.game ,set ,match.

[GreenDragon]

Excuse me,buit is water not a chemical? Oh that's right it is a chemical ,Dihydrogen Monoxide(H2O).I'll be damned according to IUPAC water is a chemical .So therefore contrails are Chemtrails .You lose.game ,set ,match.

[GreenDragon]

LMAO filtered sunshine,it's all filtered why the hell you think thew sky looks blue? It's becasue nitrogen the most abundant gas int he atmosphere refracts that visible frequency of the electromagnetic spectrum,so ya all sunlight is filtered.Keep searching for your lunatic conspiracy theory

[halva]

People who have abandoned this discussion are not 'chemmies', or at least not all.

Footsoldier was a person whose expressed political views were the same as Arianna Huffington's. He was brought much closer to the views of 'chemtrails' activists by witnessing the 'debate' here. But then he got fed up, because what was basically an off-topic subject, admittedly introduced by me, but then taken up by many people of opposing viewpoint apparently insensitive or indifferent to the views of Arianna Huffington, was dominating the board and had become apparently unremovable.

In the final analysis, Reynolds' position is sustained by the balance of political forces and appeals to power.

But this could change from one day to the next. We are in correspondence with people such as Sir David King and Hans-Joachim Schellnhuber. They have abstained from the chemtrails debate, but this abstention is to the detriment of their declared positions on the climate change issue. If they decided to close the mouth of a Reynolds they could do so with one public statement, or perhaps even a private one.

If I were in such a fragile position as Reynolds is, I would be less offensive towards people on whose toleration I might be dependent in a tomorrow when I can no longer keep saying the things I have been saying for so long now.

[halva]

Reynolds why did you claim that I would not be able to post at Megasprayer?

Having explained, do you concede being wrong?

[whitemajikman]

[quote]People who have abandoned this discussion are not 'chemmies', or at least not all.

Footsoldier was a person whose expressed political views were the same as Arianna Huffington's. He was brought much closer to the views of 'chemtrails' activists by witnessing the 'debate' here. But then he got fed up, because what was basically an off-topic subject, admittedly introduced by me, but then taken up by many people of opposing viewpoint apparently insensitive or indifferent to the views of Arianna Huffington, was dominating the board and had become apparently unremovable.

In the final analysis, Reynolds' position is sustained by the balance of political forces and appeals to power.

But this could change from one day to the next. We are in correspondence with people such as Sir David King and Hans-Joachim Schellnhuber. They have abstained from the chemtrails debate, but this abstention is to the detriment of their declared positions on the climate change issue. If they decided to close the mouth of a Reynolds they could do so with one public statement, or perhaps even a private one.

If I were in such a fragile position as Reynolds is, I would be less offensive towards people on whose toleration I might be dependent in a tomorrow when I can no longer keep saying the things I have been saying for so long now.






Halva I have had it with your Impotent threats,so in light of all the new info I have gathered in the last 48hrs regarding your anti-semetic and terrorist ties you are about to be check-mated and the beautiful part about this is that you have given me in all your posts the people that will benefit most from this information including your own government................in other words your racism will be your downfall.........and you are now from this moment on a non-issue and your credibility which you seem to think you have is now dead................p.s. Arianna was the first person I sent this info to,so consider yourself exposed and on this board your views now amount to nothing.........because really who would take a racist's view point seriously .....I can tell you not Arianna thats for sure..........

[halva]

You too (i.e. like Raynolds) overestimate your power White Magic Man.

[liakopoulos]

Everybody who tries to warn the sleeping herd ,is automatically named a fasist, a racist, an antisemit ect. .Since the miniors of the dark side of zionism can not ridicul the issues or the ideas, they try to ridicule the person. I hereby refuse to continue participating in this non scientific travesty. PS. Hey Jay ,you are being sprayed too.

[jayreynolds]

He can't even read plain english.
"Reynolds why did you claim that I would not be able to post at Megasprayer?
Having explained, do you concede being wrong?"
lol :lol:

[gaiacomm]

He can't even read plain english.
"Reynolds why did you claim that I would not be able to post at Megasprayer?
Having explained, do you concede being wrong?"
lol :lol:


Jay....fade into Black!!!!

[whitemajikman]

[quote]You too (i.e. like Raynolds) overestimate your power White Magic Man.
_________________

Halva ,Do you have Costas Karamanlis's ear........? No, you do not, nor am I over estimating the power of THE TRUTH......oh and Halva 3.8% of The popular vote for your cause does not give you the right or the power which you so desire to spread anti-semitism. P.S Did you know that the ADL has you on their list and has quite a bit of very interesting info on your anti-semetic ties.....? You are a racist plain and simple but if you wish to keep this charade up......by all means be my guest,for in the end you are your own worst enemy,And I think it is you this time who has underestimated the POWER of TRUTH.

WMM

[gaiacomm]

He can't even read plain english.
"Reynolds why did you claim that I would not be able to post at Megasprayer?
Having explained, do you concede being wrong?"
lol :lol:


Jay....fade into Black!!!!

[Bonehead9]

He can't even read plain english.
"Reynolds why did you claim that I would not be able to post at Megasprayer?
Having explained, do you concede being wrong?"
lol :lol:


Jay....fade into Black!!!!


Spamming again, huh, Conn man?

[Azerelus]

Mr. Reynolds, you are an ass.

A Pompous Ass at that.

It is amazing to watch you continue to mis-read and misinterpret what these folks have been telling you. I think you do it on purpose, just so you can look like you know more than you let on. Which you don't. We are left with the feeling that you are less than what you claim.

I have taken an interest in you to see what makes you tick. A little research and I find that you have pulled all the stops when it comes to "proving" your point.

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING - stands in your way to "teach" the world it's error. This is an obsession nothing less.

You must have dedicated thousands of hours to the subject, even made a web site to argue Chemtrails. I have read volumes of your brand of crap - Crap considering that you tend to take pot shots at anything you can, including, but not limited to; people's religious views, their sexuality, even their gender. Assuming that you have passed on race simply because you can't see what skin color these people have.

You use these things to "prove" that they know nothing. Idiotic way to do business but you persist.

This Thread shows time and time again just how asinine you really are. You have targeted points which have been answered, again and again, yet you demand more "evidence" or more "discussion" on points which have no bearing on the initial post of this thread.

There is something not right with the mind that obsesses over a thing. If as you claim, Chemtrails/contrails are normal, then there is no reason why you should obsess on this matter. But you do.

Every Group, Club, Discussion Board that you have gone to the people think you are stupid, crazy, insane, or just pathetic to the extreme.

Do you understand that? Do you understand that you are laughed at?

The name of Jay Reynolds is synonymous with Idiot.

Everything, and I mean everything that you have asked as been answered at least on one or more of these boards.

Just stop it, give it up. You can't win.

Azerelus

[halva]

You will not be allowed to participate at chem11 proboards.

??????????

"I have no idea what Reynold's is yapping about."

(Convenor of chem 11 proboards).

[halva]

The Olympic Games chemtrails (or skywriting??) that I referred to at

http://www.ariannaonline.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6429&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=270

are now on-line again and can be seen at:

http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=Discussion&action=display&num=1069283108

[Bonehead9]

. . . you tend to take pot shots at anything you can, including, but not limited to; people's religious views, their sexuality, even their gender. Assuming that you have passed on race simply because you can't see what skin color these people have.


I’ll be the first to admit that Jay can get a little abrasive at times, but it goes both ways. The Chemies are also prone to the insults and such.


You have targeted points which have been answered, again and again, yet you demand more "evidence" or more "discussion" on points which have no bearing on the initial post of this thread.


Where have his questions been answered? Gaiaconman tried to b.s. them, but he said nothing. Jay’s questions are valid and his point is valid. Those that believe in chemtrails have failed to present any coherent, logical, science based proof of their claims.

In addition, you fail to see the subtle, yet telling point that his posts have made

The belief in chemtrails is not based on any physical evidence, but rather, it is based on prejudice, paranoia and delusions.

[gaiacomm]

Chemtrails are real and they do exist, period!

[Bonehead9]

Chemtrails are real and they do exist, period!

I am still waiting for solid, physical proof of this.

OK, how about just providing a simple answer to a simple question.

What are they made of?

[halva]

Gaiacomm forget it.

[whitemajikman]

Gaiacomm forget it.


Once again The Truth prevails and the Racist scaremongers must seek shelter from the blinding Truth,as is the case with most if not all of the members of the great CHEMTRAIL CULT.

Halva your days of freedom are numbered and so are gaiacom's not just the man but the terrorist corporate empire he has built on lies.


regards
WMM

[gaiacomm]

Gaiacomm forget it.


Once again The Truth prevails and the Racist scaremongers must seek shelter from the blinding Truth,as is the case with most if not all of the members of the great CHEMTRAIL CULT.

Halva your days of freedom are numbered and so are gaiacom's not just the man but the terrorist corporate empire he has built on lies.


regards
WMM


The FBI has got you also so keep posting with Jay!

[gaiacomm]

Slander can be acted on in court with the right lawyer. Time to set a case history on internet posting forums. A class case needs to be born.
Freedom of expression? Lets see a landmark case started on Ariannas forum!

[whitemajikman]

The FBI has got you also so keep posting with Jay!



You may be right ......but with all the knowledge I possess that won't be a problem .......you on the other hand are about to see what justice is all about .......just ask Alex Jones......... 8)

[whitemajikman]

Slander can be acted on in court with the right lawyer. Time to set a case history on internet posting forums. A class case needs to be born.
Freedom of expression? Lets see a landmark case started on Ariannas forum!

Gaia,Your legal problems are about to begin,and I am rolling on the floor busting a gut...........YOU the biggest purveyor of slander on the internet wants to start a class action suit.........come on .....bring it on....this will be quite the soap opera......and entertaining, you hypocritical poor excuse for a human being. :lol:

[gaiacomm]

Slander can be acted on in court with the right lawyer. Time to set a case history on internet posting forums. A class case needs to be born.
Freedom of expression? Lets see a landmark case started on Ariannas forum!

Gaia,Your legal problems are about to begin,and I am rolling on the floor busting a gut...........YOU the biggest purveyor of slander on the internet wants to start a class action suit.........come on .....bring it on....this will be quite the soap opera......and entertaining, you hypocritical poor excuse for a human being. :lol:


Thank You!

[gaiacomm]

Slander can be acted on in court with the right lawyer. Time to set a case history on internet posting forums. A class case needs to be born.
Freedom of expression? Lets see a landmark case started on Ariannas forum!

Gaia,Your legal problems are about to begin,and I am rolling on the floor busting a gut...........YOU the biggest purveyor of slander on the internet wants to start a class action suit.........come on .....bring it on....this will be quite the soap opera......and entertaining, you hypocritical poor excuse for a human being. :lol:


Thank you!

[Bonehead9]

Chemtrails are real and they do exist, period!

I am still waiting for solid, physical proof of this.

OK, how about just providing a simple answer to a simple question.

What are they made of?


Anybody?


All I want is a chemical formula.

I have heard all sorts of things that have been proposed.

Give me one definite constituant.

anything.

Barium? but what form, a salt? an alloy? what?

Aluminum?

An oxide? a salt? What?


:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

[jayreynolds]

halva,
I told giacomm he would not be allowed to post at chem11proboards, not you. Go back and read the post if you want, I must have given you a 'brain hemmorhoid' for sure, eh?.

I see you are trying your best to limit damage and exposure by ending you and your friend's participation here. Maybe you will be able to do so, but you're really too late.

That's just too bad, because this thread has been accessed thousands of times by pretty much everybody. You personally started threads at four "chemtrail" cult messageboards which directed viewers towards this debate. The thread has remained at the top of discussion at chemtrailcentral.com for over two weeks now. You and your cohorts are still daily being exposed as insouicant lie-mongers, worthless do-nothings, and ignorant know-nothings.

Your refusal to even attempt answers to basic questions relevant to your own claims speak encyclopedic volumes about how close you know your hoax really is to being exposed. You know that the pandora's box they open is the end of all your deception, and have been on the move, running scared, since they were mentioned.

and just think, in your naive foolish little way, you actually believed you could propagandize Mrs. Arianna Huffington to become a "chemtrail believer", a fellow cult member! Ha, by now she, and anybody with half a peanut for a brain reading this thread is so innoculated against the "chemtrail" mind-control virus you seek to replicate, they have lifetime immunity!

Well, guess what? The questions aren't going away, and guess again if you think you can hide from them. One day indeed you, Sore, 'amber', azerelas, Liakopoulos and all the rest will be forced to deal with the reality they impose, like it or not. You are such a damn fool to run, because by doing so you show yourself in front of all your friends exactly what cowards you all are. But what the hell, none of you are any better than the rest, none of you had any answers, so the only real question is who was a little more cowardly than the rest? I'll leave you all to sort that one out, but suffice it to say, none of you has the guts to probably even bring it up, do you?

bye-bye halva, damned if you didn't screw yourself over once again.

======================
Liakopoulos,
Hey, try on a real scientist for size, meet Georgios Amanatidis, probably knows more about contrails, and meteorology in general, than any other Greek! If you can convince him of "chemtrails", I'll quit immediately.
Let me know what he says, lol :lol:
http://www.pa.op.dlr.de/aac/committee.html
=======================

azerelas,
I must have hurt you really bad. That's good!
I'm glad I don't feel your pain. Burn, baby, burn!

see you wimps, later, K?
Jay

[jayreynolds]

Dear Readers,
For the past several months, a lively debate has ensued on another forum regarding climate change. The debate has almost totally focused on two debaters, 'Sore', who recently ran away from this forum, and Eduardo Ferreyra(real name!), from Argentina. The debate has mainly been won by Ferreyra, who actually left for some time and recently returned.

Stung seriously by his return, the cultists banned Eduardo from participation. The banning was publically approved by our own 'halva', who also frequently called for my banning here. The mantle of debate was taken up by one 'Jackboot', prompting 'halva' to make this comment.
So much for 'halva' being an advocate of "democracy".
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000094-10.html

"Mech, keep it up. Ban Jackboot too. Ban as much as is required."

'halva' you are truly a little nazi. :evil:

[jayreynolds]

What would you call a group of people who remain fearful for five years that someone only six miles away is affecting the very air that they breathe, but hasn't made any tangible effort to go over there and see what the hell is going on?

These same people never wear gas masks to protect themselves from the poison-du-jour, but they do create websites full of distorted photos of the site, just six miles away, where they think the poison is coming from, but they never make a tangible effort to use a telescope to photograph what the hell is going on.

These same people drive some thousands of miles in their cars each year, but won't even try going six miles to see what the hell is going on.

What do you call people like these?

Think about it.

[jayreynolds]

halva wrote:
"We are in correspondence with people such as Sir David King and Hans-Joachim Schellnhuber. They have abstained from the chemtrails debate, but this abstention is to the detriment of their declared positions on the climate change issue."

You mean you wrote them an email and they didn't respond.

Who would have known that would happen?
:lol:

[halva]

Actually his name was Jackpot.

E-mail messages to the Tyndall Institute have been answered.

Thanks for the tip with Amanatidis.

[halva]

W.H. What is the answer to Reynolds' question on why chemtrails don't show up on radar?

Answer: It depends on the type of RADAR, freq and its settings on range and sensitivity. Weather RADARs maps large and dense clouds very well. They want large area effects generally and the computer systems remove smaller clutter effects.

Just because Al seeding starts the water vapor process, does not mean that it won't detect on weather RADAR. When they grow large enough----they show up well.

The amplitude of the RADAR returns depend on the amounts of water vapor or its density. So, the beginning water vapor collection won't return much signal to the RADAR and the simple lines won't show. Unless one adjusts the sensitivity up and shortens the resolution to show fine details. And turns off some of the computer smoothing.

Many RADARs are after long range and low on the horizon detection, and many chemtrails start off high in altitude and as thin lines.

Most of the weather RADAR systems are looking and mapping the large area effects, and they run filters that tend to smooth out data like thin chemtrail lines.

Chemtrails show up real well on satellite detection, even over the Gulf War zone during that time.

One can certainly tune a weather RADAR to detect chemtrail lines---

[Bonehead9]

By that analysis, what is the point of chaff (http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/wrhq/LITETAs/TALITE9609/talite9609.html)?

[gaiacomm]

Jay:

I see you are up to your old tricks!

Jay, you have used up this board as well. Work on your victorian house and kiss Karen for me!

[halva]

Bonehead, would you like to talk direct to the expert rather than having me act as your messenger boy? (On an issue which interests you much more than it does me!)

[gaiacomm]

Slander can be acted on in court with the right lawyer. Time to set a case history on internet posting forums. A class case needs to be born.
Freedom of expression? Lets see a landmark case started on Ariannas forum!

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

This forum was created to allow us all to voice our opinions and concerns and refrain from attacks, threats and slander.

Halva wished to start a thread that would encourage readers to ad or comment on chemtrails. Then you get the ones that follow this subject like some mutated virus that won't go away.

Well the only vaccine is the LAW! Its to bad that we have to call on Big Brother to be a moderator on this forum but it sends a message to Jay and his supporters that we have zero tolerance for this type of conduct.

Jay if you and your supporters stop posting here I will also go away with you all and leave these people to express themselves without the insults.

Jay, lets you and me go somewhere else and leave these people alone!

No defeat no winners no losers!

Jay just be reasonable!

Jay I apppreciate the comments you make about me and I will always will remember how you took the time to let me know.

I am sure that your wife Karen would be a lilttle taken back and your children if they knew that you had such a different persona on the internet.

There have been people that have been offended with your remarks including children that happen to admire Arianna and have commented that they find your views offensive and rude. This data along with other info will be passed on to the law enforcement offices to decide rather to investigate. This of course will become public if just reason is found.

So Jay I suggest you cease soon!

You see Jay, keep in mind that we can all post what we want until someone decides to prosecute, then we have to stop!
So maybe you can be the fall guy this time!

So keep posting if you dare!
And if you do you might wish to clean it up, children are watching!

[letxa2000]

W.H.: What is the answer to Reynolds' question on why chemtrails don't show up on radar?

Answer: It depends on the type of RADAR, freq and its settings on range and sensitivity. Weather RADARs maps large and dense clouds very well. They want large area effects generally and the computer systems remove smaller clutter effects.

Birds, smoke, dust and even pollen can be picked up by NEXRAD weather radar. Military chaff shows up very well on radar. So what exactly are these chemtrails made up of that aren't being picked up?


The amplitude of the RADAR returns depend on the amounts of water vapor or its density. So, the beginning water vapor collection won't return much signal to the RADAR and the simple lines won't show. Unless one adjusts the sensitivity up and shortens the resolution to show fine details. And turns off some of the computer smoothing. Many RADARs are after long range and low on the horizon detection, and many chemtrails start off high in altitude and as thin lines.

NEXRAD is capable of picking up even temperature inversions. And while I agree that NEXRAD could have problems picking up a very "thin line" (though it does pick up chaff exceptionally well), that thin line would have to spread to cause any significant effect on anything. At that point the line would no longer be thin and there'd be a greater probability of it being picked up just as dust and pollen shows up. And since these supposed "chemtrails" are supposedly laid down in grids and parallel lines we should see evidence on satellite or radar of clouds appearing in grid or parallel fashion. Why don't we see that?

[halva]

In a civilized forum, experts would feel free to come forward and address these issues in their own name.

On a forum that has been invaded by Big Chief Ray-Jay and his braves, scientists will not easily present themselves, because they know they will be subjected to ad hominem argumentation and character assassination.

Thus, because I am determined that I will dance on Ray-Jay's grave, I have to play messenger boy.

So it goes.

[jayreynolds]

have a lot to hide. Just like fake "professsors" and fake advocates of "direct democracy" that always want to ban people with different opinions. So, halva, you were thinking jackboot instead of jackpot. How freudian of you, you little nazi. :lol:

so, scared to show all your friends the truth about the olympic skywriting?
It means you become a debunker, debunking yourself and others. Not enough guts, huh?
http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=Discussion&action=display&num=1069283108

[halva]

Anything more to offer in the ideas department, Ray-Jay?

The Olympic skywriting photograph has been restored. It is at the bottom of the thread.

It's a shame. There is so much content in this thread. If from this point onwards it just consists of a two-person slanging match, finally the whole 'debate' is just going to be erased.

[jayreynolds]

halva wrote:
"Answer: It depends on the type of RADAR, freq and its settings on range and sensitivity. Weather RADARs maps large and dense clouds very well. They want large area effects generally and the computer systems remove smaller clutter effects.
Just because Al seeding starts the water vapor process, does not mean that it won't detect on weather RADAR. When they grow large enough----they show up well.
The amplitude of the RADAR returns depend on the amounts of water vapor or its density. So, the beginning water vapor collection won't return much signal to the RADAR and the simple lines won't show. Unless one adjusts the sensitivity up and shortens the resolution to show fine details. And turns off some of the computer smoothing.
Many RADARs are after long range and low on the horizon detection, and many chemtrails start off high in altitude and as thin lines.
Most of the weather RADAR systems are looking and mapping the large area effects, and they run filters that tend to smooth out data like thin chemtrail lines.
Chemtrails show up real well on satellite detection, even over the Gulf War zone during that time.
One can certainly tune a weather RADAR to detect chemtrail lines---"

Well, well, well. I see halva has dropped all pretenses to "Let us deal gently with the truth. No more scaremongering: about nukes, about the climate, about terrorists, about anything." halva is thinking in terms of jackboots now, lol.

halva, it's clear enough your "scientist" is Jim Phelps, "DOE whistleblower".
Anybody that wants can go see his sort of tripe right here:
http://members.aol.com/magnu96196/chemtrails.html

To put it bluntly, Jim Phelps is in la-la land. He claims to have invented both chemtrails and HAARP. When you get down to the meat of what Jim Phelps says, he is some sort of religious fanatic raving about the 'end times'. Don't like it? Sue me.

Let's take a look at the bottom line of what Jim Phelps is saying:

"One can certainly tune a weather RADAR to detect chemtrail lines"

Ok, where's the beef? Show your proof. Reports come in hourly night and day of "chemtrails", show us one on weather radar. You've had many months since I first challenged you to show "chemtrails" on radar. Now is the time your bluff is getting called out publicly. NOW!

Oh, can't handle that one, can you? :oops:

Well, let's look a bit closer:
"Most of the weather RADAR systems are looking and mapping the large area effects, and they run filters that tend to smooth out data like thin chemtrail lines."

Oh, really? Well, maybe you could explain just how weather radar picks up the smoke plume from this steel mill, and shows it as a line?

http://www.crh.noaa.gov/lot/webpage/smokeplm.htm

OOPS! , looks like Jim Phelps goofed up again! :shock:
Let's look closer still:

"Many RADARs are after long range and low on the horizon detection, and many chemtrails start off high in altitude and as thin lines."

Well, I'll grant you, the steel mill plume was actually at low altitude, since it came out of a smokestack. So, you say weather radar looks long range and low on the horizon, eh? Well, the fact is, weather radar covers as low as a few thousand feet and in this image, a smoke plume from a rocket launch gone awry can be easily seen at 50,000 feet!

http://www.ov-10bronco.net/users/merlin/Flight/kaboom.htm

Woopsie, Jim Phelps bites a big one, kaboom! :cry:

That's what happens when you use a nutcase for reference, just like your buddy Liakopoulos uses stuff he ripped from William Thomas, bet his book says contrails can only form at below -76 degreesF, am I right, Liakopoulos?


And so, the challenge to display examples of alleged 'Chemtrails' on ordinary weather radar remains unfulfilled, and the alleged "scientist"(Jim Phelps) trotted out anonymously by 'halva' has been shown to be an imbecile who tried to fool you, but failed in the face of the facts.


You people rant about how Jay Reynolds subjects you to "ad hominem argumentation and character assassination". Look, people, I'll use fact and logic to argue the merits of actual claims, just like I do above.

I'll also use a person's previous statements that discredit them, and reveal their character as they themselves reveal it. If the ad hominem truth of a person's own words assasinates, don't blame the one who brings it to your attention just because the one who made the gaffe doesn't want it brought out.

Blame the one whose own conduct brings himself into ridicule.

You people just don't get it, you are failures, one and all. :lol:

[gaiacomm]

Jay:

I see you are up to your old tricks!

Jay, you have used up this board as well. Work on your victorian house and kiss Karen for me!

[mathec]

In response to Bonehead9 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:13 pm:

"I am still waiting for solid, physical proof of this.
OK, how about just providing a simple answer to a simple question.
What are they made of?"
===================

That’s right Bonehead9, where’s the physical proof of this? All those miles wide white strips in the skies stretching from horizon to horizon, visible for hours as they spread and turn into grey-blue haze mist – must be mass illusions…seen only by people with chemtrails embedded into their brains.

I remarked to J. Reynolds once, that I’m watching two, three planes flying parallel to each other leaving a wide strip white trail (what we call chemtrail), behind them; but at the same time I see a plane flying between these strips of white trails (now spreading side-ways), with its short contrail constantly dissolving, unlike the other trails which last from horizon to horizon for hours.

Jay was kind enough to put my mind to rest with a scientific explanation. Namely that there are various air pockets of various temperature and chemical intensities affecting the contrails in different ways. Fair enough, not being a scientist, I’ll have to take his word for it. But still… what still puzzles me is – how is it that these air spaces/pockets creating only normal contrails exist only between what is termed chemtrails, but not one is to be observed all along the wide trails extending from horizon to horizon?

I’m told that the skies over the oceans are free of these chemtrails, pardon me – contrails, as are some Continents – Australia for example, from where I came to Germany. Only yesterday I watched a CNN documentary, showing a some Australian landscapes with lamb-wool clouds covered beautiful clean blue skies, something I have not yet seen here in three years that I’ve been here. Have not seen even a patch of clear blue sky yet. It’s always covered with a dirty bluish gray haze – the results of these thick chem/contrails spreading into the atmosphere. I just hope that there are no hallucinatory elements in them drifting to the ground…turning me into a chemtrail addict like the others

Steve

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

I suggest that this thread be dissolved for obvious reasons. What started as a question became a mud slinging debate with posters from the underworld fighting with the lord of the rings. No winners in this contest, just confusion, slander, insults, threats, racist remarks, religious remarks, scientific debate with no creditable representation and just a good ole free for all.

Jay and others have some good points and so does Halva and his group. Maybe the way of presentation without all of the chatter would help promote some understanding of the facts.

We all know that it is very difficult to prove chemtrails at the level you wish and the other side knows this and taunts you all into a box canyon of debate.

But there is enough de-classified facts that do warrant a full disclosure by someone.

Finding that someone is the problem...finding the holy grail is the problem.

Until both sides can come to terms with each other and use the resources that are avaliable to both sides an answer to all of your questions with proof can be gotten.

Then it is up to both sides to accept the results with dignity, period!

I rest my case!

[jayreynolds]

mathec wrote:
"I remarked to J. Reynolds once, that I’m watching two, three planes flying parallel to each other leaving a wide strip white trail (what we call chemtrail), behind them; but at the same time I see a plane flying between these strips of white trails (now spreading side-ways), with its short contrail constantly dissolving, unlike the other trails which last from horizon to horizon for hours."

Funny, whenever contrails start/stop due to encountering air with insufficient misture to persist, or high enough to not allow contrail formation, "chemtrail" cultists are quick to assume that:
-"someone must have shut off the chem-pumps"
-" the chem-nozzles must have clogged"

However, take a look at this photo and tell me why those clouds can persist and create "mare's tails" in only those particular areas of the sky, but ordinary contrails made of water crystals should not be able to persist at all, and certainly not ever persist in only certain places?
http://www.wolkenatlas.de/wolken/wo13414.htm

Is any of this sinking in yet?

mathec wrote:
"I’m told that the skies over the oceans are free of these chemtrails, pardon me – contrails, as are some Continents – Australia for example, from where I came to Germany. Only yesterday I watched a CNN documentary, showing a some Australian landscapes with lamb-wool clouds covered beautiful clean blue skies, something I have not yet seen here in three years that I’ve been here. Have not seen even a patch of clear blue sky yet. It’s always covered with a dirty bluish gray haze – the results of these thick chem/contrails spreading into the atmosphere."

I actually think your description of skies in Germany are an exagerration.
As far as the oceans being clear of persistent contrails, here are two satellite photos from 1987 which show three hours persistence and spreading over the north sea:
http://www.royal-met-soc.org.uk/weatherclub/secondary/scisky3.html

want something more recent, in color maybe?

http://seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEAWIFS/TEACHERS/ATMOSPHERE/contrails.html

http://epod.usra.edu/archive/epodviewer.php3?oid=93760

You people aren't playing with children.
Jay

[letxa2000]

But still? what still puzzles me is ? how is it that these air spaces/pockets creating only normal contrails exist only between what is termed chemtrails, but not one is to be observed all along the wide trails extending from horizon to horizon?

As you said, the atmosphere is not constant and different air masses have different temperatures, humidity, etc. Your observation that the air pockets that create normal contrails only exist between those that you term chemtrails is more likely a difference in altitude. It's very hard to estimate the altitude of aircraft. While it's certainly not impossible that three planes flying at the same altitude can be flying through differing airmasses, when they're flying at different altitudes it's a virtual certainty.


I?m told that the skies over the oceans are free of these chemtrails, pardon me ? contrails, as are some Continents ? Australia for example, from where I came to Germany.

Mexico is essentially contrail-free. I live in the second or third largest city in Mexico and there are virtually no contrails. I saw one last week and thought, "Cool! A contrail in Mexico!" There are far fewer planes flying in Mexico (and Australia) than there are in the U.S., hence fewer contrails.

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

I suggest that this thread be dissolved for obvious reasons. What started as a question became a mud slinging debate with posters from the underworld fighting with the lord of the rings. No winners in this contest, just confusion, slander, insults, threats, racist remarks, religious remarks, scientific debate with no creditable representation and just a good ole free for all.

Jay and others have some good points and so does Halva and his group. Maybe the way of presentation without all of the chatter would help promote some understanding of the facts.

We all know that it is very difficult to prove chemtrails at the level you wish and the other side knows this and taunts you all into a box canyon of debate.

But there is enough de-classified facts that do warrant a full disclosure by someone.

Finding that someone is the problem...finding the holy grail is the problem.

Until both sides can come to terms with each other and use the resources that are avaliable to both sides an answer to all of your questions with proof can be gotten.

Then it is up to both sides to accept the results with dignity, period!

I rest my case!

[whitemajikman]

Jay and others have some good points and so does Halva and his group. Maybe the way of presentation without all of the chatter would help promote some understanding of the facts.




Gaia your methods are transparent, in your attempt to distance yourself from harms way,may I remind you that you are a HUGE part of Halva's "GROUP",and that you yourself have been the purveyor of this hoax for just as long, if not longer.

You have been riding shotgun for Halva and his self styled nazi's since the inception of both these threads and now you seem to think that by projecting a "voice of reason" this absolves you. You cant even answer simple scientific questions that are posed to you.Your weak attempts at Damage control are not going un-noticed .

Put plainly you are a COWARD of the worst kind,you spread lies,fear and deception on a daily basis and have sided with nazi's because they are the only ones besides the ignorant marks(sheeple), which will take this hoax seriously,you have spent a better part of half a decade in search for that elusive Scientist or government official who will bring your hoax to the main-stream with zero success.

p.s. maybe you should switch from chemtrails to seeking out the whereabouts of the HOLYGRAIL,at least this subject matter has some basis of TRUTH and is based upon something tangible.

[halva]

I don't agree with the idea of dissolving this thread, Gaiacomm.

The most important moves in this chess game are being played off-line, and since Big Chief Ray-Jay is determined to tough it out to the very end, that end will come suddenly and unexpectedly.

The scientific expertise we have available to us is as it is, and we will use it. By cutting and pasting, of course, at least in my case, as I am not a scientist.

Apart from that we have the obvious element of eyewitness testimony, that little popular truth evoked by Steve Mathe and attributed such little significance by Big Chief Ray-Jay. Let Steve keep reminding him of it if he wishes.

There is nothing else to say.

[halva]

There is a big difference between chaff and thin lines of water vapor. Chaff is a hard metallic reflector, and causes a huge return signal. So, this should not even enter the discussion for vapor comparisons. Like comparing bowling balls to grains of rice.

I guess we could argue why we don't see domestic airplanes on the nightly weather reports----as these are hard metallic targets as well.

Chemtrails do grow or spread----as the Al method is a seeding technique. They gain in water density and typically smear across the sky as they gain more water vapor density.

At that point the line would no longer be thin and there'd be a greater probability of it being picked up just as dust and pollen shows up.


=======
One can pick chemtrails up with RADAR methods. But one usually does not see them on the evening weather report on the TV-----these look at large area effects. The computers that process the RADAR returns can be set to tune into the effect or to reject it.

One can even see chemtrails on the satellite photos and there are some
interesting ones from the Gulf War conflict. Lots of folks tend to track the
chemtrails on satellite.

And since these supposed "chemtrails" are supposedly laid down in grids and parallel lines we should see evidence on satellite or radar of clouds appearing in grid or parallel fashion. Why don't we see that?
=========


Mainly because that is not the case. Some military efforts will occasionally do this---but rarely. The Mil planes fly higher and use more de-icer, which is the chemtrail additive. It is as simple a technology as leaded gasoline. These will often appear denser.

Most chemtrails come from regular domestic planes flying standard corridors. Sometimes this is seen as many parallel paths in the sky and sometimes when these corridors cross, it is seen as a grid like appearance with X patterns.

There are photos of the corridor type chemtrails all over the
Internet---laying parallel lines. I see them over this area in the US all the time. There are all kinds of variances in the upper atmosphere moisture and this sometimes makes them look like the chemtrails stop and restart.

There are all kinds of wind shears in these altitudes that can pull these
corridor airs over other distant air------and this cause all kinds of patterns
over the course of a day.

Who came up with this assertion that chemtrails don't show with RADAR
methods? What were the conditions for the assertion? The RADAR system type and its program settings?

[Bonehead9]

There is a big difference between chaff and thin lines of water vapor. Chaff is a hard metallic reflector, and causes a huge return signal. So, this should not even enter the discussion for vapor comparisons. Like comparing bowling balls to grains of rice.


Ooops, I think you slipped up there Halva.

"thin lines of water vapor"

So are you admitting that chemtrails are in fact, "thin lines of water vapor?"

[halva]

I'm not admitting anything. I told you I'm just transcribing and you can argue with the person concerned directly for all I care.

[mathec]

In response to J. Reynolds, I stand corrected on some points, but knowing of governments interference and experiments with the climate…I’m still left with .00.1% gnawing feeling that there may be something about chemtrails which I leave with a big question mark for the time being.

I did open the links you supplied Jay, and the satellite pictures did show these trails over the waters, and the Royal Meteorology Institute’s explanations of these contrails more or less satisfy my curiosity. I also agree with letxa2000 about the lack of these trails over Australia possibly because of light air traffic.

Jay:> “I actually think your description of skies in Germany are an exaggeration.”

This is the part about which I’m not satisfied about. I live in about the middle of Germany with a very busy air traffic above, with the sky smeared with a dirty blue-gray haze almost constantly, the results of these trails spreading out. Why don’t they disappear completely like the normal contrails that last only a few seconds? It is this part of the equation that none have answered convincingly yet. They do cut down the rays of the sun quite substantially. Can we leave out that this is not a government program attempting to reduce the hot-house effects and ultra violet radiation – for our own good? After all, everything governments do…they do it for our own good – don’t they? :)

[letxa2000]

There is a big difference between chaff and thin lines of water vapor. Chaff is a hard metallic reflector, and causes a huge return signal. So, this should not even enter the discussion for vapor comparisons. Like comparing bowling balls to grains of rice.

Granted. And that's why you don't see contrails on weather radar, generally speaking. But my understanding of "chemtrails" is that some people think they aren't water vapor. So what is this "mystery chemical" that isn't water vapor and isn't visible on radar? If we're talking about water vapor then we're talking about contrails, not chemtrails.


I guess we could argue why we don't see domestic airplanes on the nightly weather reports----as these are hard metallic targets as well.

NEXRAD has logic that automatically discards any echo which shows a Doppler velocity inconsistent with weather phenomena. An airplane is going to be cruising along at 450mph and that's a bit faster than your average raindrop or hail so NEXRAD assumes the return is either erroneous or not weather-related and discards it. This works in many cases although NEXRAD can only detect relative velocity which means an airplane that is due north of the radar and heading west will have "zero" velocity since it's not getting any closer to or further from the radar. When that happens it is possible to see airplanes on NEXRAD imagery but you'll probably think it's just part of the ground clutter and since NEXRAD only updates every 5-11 minutes it's not like you can see the "dot" moving across the radar. Or maybe the local news station has an image filter that automatically drops all single-pixel returns to reduce the clutter.


Chemtrails do grow or spread----as the Al method is a seeding technique. They gain in water density and typically smear across the sky as they gain more water vapor density. At that point the line would no longer be thin and there'd be a greater probability of it being picked up just as dust and pollen shows up.

But even so, they're supposedly layng down chemtrails. These will start as a thin line and then spread out. We should see more radar and satellite images that show very long, skinny clouds slowly getting wider. Again, I don't think we're observing that. I've certainly never seen it.


Most chemtrails come from regular domestic planes flying standard corridors. Sometimes this is seen as many parallel paths in the sky and sometimes when these corridors cross, it is seen as a grid like appearance with X patterns.

Are you talking about contrails or chemtrails? And what is the difference?


Who came up with this assertion that chemtrails don't show with RADAR methods? What were the conditions for the assertion? The RADAR system type and its program settings?

I'm talking about the fact that if chemtrails are being intentionally sprayed and if it's for weather-control (as I've heard others state), then presumably the weather-control will happen approximately where the chemtrail was sprayed. So if you have a long, skinny chemtrail that provokes changes in the weather (cloud formation?) then we ought to be able to look at radar or satellite and see the changes along the position of the chemtrail. I'm not saying don't see contrails on satellite or that those contrails don't often spread out to cover a larger area, I'm just saying that I have seen no evidence from satellite or radar that suggests that there is any strange weather, such as major storm development, occurring in proximity to the "chemtrails."

[Bonehead9]

Intersting.

http://www.ariannaonline.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7175

172+ veiws, 7 votes.


Halva, no one cares about your chemtrails.


:twisted:

[jayreynolds]

Just tell Jim Phelps to come on over here and take it like a man.
We'll leave him with a small bit of self respect, and he needs to be taught some lessons. It'll make him a better, stronger human being.

[airtankerpilot]

This has to be the most silly thing I have ever seen.

It is a clear case of people, instead of making an effort to understand something , just jump to some silly conclusion, like a herd of sheep.

Do you people honestly think contrails have to look exactly the same every time? I mean from reading your chemtrail sites, thats the whole basis of your belief? Do you think it is always the same temperature, humidities, with same kinds of aircraft, at the same altitudes?

NO

How simplistic and intellectually lazy to have such silly beliefs.

You people are scared of weather service radars.

You are scared of planes that fly close, or parallel.

You are scared of planes that fly intersecting paths.

You are scared of planes that follow each other on a route.

You are scared of planes that do not have big colorful paint schemes you cant see from 6-8 miles away verticially and who knows how much horizonally.

And you with your talk of being against alarmist environmental talk? That is so dishonest of you, when you are trying to alarm people into believing in some kooky conspiracy, that is devoid of ANY evidence. That is alarmist and dishonest.

And how about when you people can not understand basic weather? Of course when weather systems approach, cirrus is a natural indicator. And the same conditions that allow naturally forming cirrus, also promote cirrus from aircraft engines. But instead of realizing that, you then assume the aircraft have completely changed the weather.

AFter all of these years, chemtrail believers still have not realized it?? A front does not approach as a vertical wall of air. It is steeply sloped, often at about 100:1 gradient, with air at the ground sometimes the last to be affected.

How can people have such a mindset of being scared of everything they do not understand? What about weather radars and airplanes that scare you? Why is it if you believe in chemtrails, you have to believe in all kinds of other conspiracies?

And chemtrail believers call other "Sheeple"??? Chemtrails believers are the biggest sheep there are, just following each others blind and silly conspiracies.

And its the same replies when questioned, must be from a form letter.

"Well dont you care about the environment"

"Prove it is not happening"

"Oh so you dont believe in conspiracies"

"So you trust the government huh"

"You are just a Bush supporter"

Always a tactic to divert attention away from absolutely no evidence.

All this time, and all you have are photos of airliners, and photos of military planes dumping fuel.

NOT ONE "SPRAY GEAR" equipped plane, not one photo.

If you go look on chemtrail central, they still believe "chaff" is a powder or some liquid you can spray.

And I have seen bats on weather radar, birds sometimes too. It can happen.

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

I suggest that this thread be dissolved for obvious reasons. What started as a question became a mud slinging debate with posters from the underworld fighting with the lord of the rings. No winners in this contest, just confusion, slander, insults, threats, racist remarks, religious remarks, scientific debate with no creditable representation and just a good ole free for all.

Jay and others have some good points and so does Halva and his group. Maybe the way of presentation without all of the chatter would help promote some understanding of the facts.

We all know that it is very difficult to prove chemtrails at the level you wish and the other side knows this and taunts you all into a box canyon of debate.

But there is enough de-classified facts that do warrant a full disclosure by someone.

Finding that someone is the problem...finding the holy grail is the problem.

Until both sides can come to terms with each other and use the resources that are avaliable to both sides an answer to all of your questions with proof can be gotten.

Then it is up to both sides to accept the results with dignity, period!

I rest my case!

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Its expected the type answer from ones that are ingnorant of their own ignorance!

Well Gaia you seem to be a sucker for punishment,and I'm bored ,so in light of my boredom and your stupidity
in underestimating my supposed ....as you say,Ignorance lets debate something with meaning.

1) What is your motives and what drives you to keep promoting the chemtrail hoax......?
2)Geo-engineering is not a hoax,What is the goal of geo-engineering...?
3)What part of the political spectrum do you currently reside....?
4) Would you call yourself an activist Gaia......?
5) Where are your whisle blowers.....5 years and no whistle blowers.
6) Who is reaping great profit from this hoax......?
7) What group Politically has everything to gain and nothing to lose by this hoax.
8)Why is there not one Scientist willing to go that extra mile to prove or disprove this hoax....?
9)Why in the last 3 years has every anti-nwo/survivalist/etc.....etc....etc...
picked up on the chemtrails hoax and now use them as a main theme of their hate sites......and their anti-establishment propaganda,but when questioned .....run back to their insulated enviroments and hide from scrutiny....as Halva has done time and time again.......?


10) here is the last and final question.....why do extreme chemmies run from debunkers and act like fascist little hitlers when they are challenged.......?


Answer all of these questions Truthfully.........Or are you going to take the Easy way out and run to the hills like Halva and so many others have done............In other words ......do you have any balls to stand by your convictions......to the end.......or are you just like The Mech's and Halva's of the world..... all mouth no brains.......?[/list]




Answer:
) What is your motives and what drives you to keep promoting the chemtrail hoax......? I HAVE NO MOTIVE OR HIDDEN AGENDA, I JUST KNOW AS A PHYSICIST THAT CHEMTRAILS CAN BE CAUSED BY SOME OF THE CLAIMS OF THE ADVOCATES. IT IS NOT A HOAX BUT A WELL PLANNED EXAMPLE OF HOW SCIENCE AND BUSINESS CAN DO WHATEVER THEY PLEASE AND IF MISTAKES ARE MADE SO WHAT...SUE THEM!
2)Geo-engineering is not a hoax,What is the goal of geo-engineering...? TO PROMOTE SCIENCES THAT DEAL WITH CHANGING THE ENVIRONMENT TO FIT THE NEEDS OF FEW AND NOT THE MANY. AND A METHOD TO PROMOTE NEW TECHNOLOGIES TO EITHER CURE THE ENVIRONMENT SLOW IT DOWN OR EVEN CHANGE IT PERMANTLEY.
3)What part of the political spectrum do you currently reside....? I BELIEVE IN FREEDOM FOR ALL PEOPLE NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE...PATRIOT. WOMEN ARE EQUAL AS WELL!
4) Would you call yourself an activist Gaia......? YES
5) Where are your whisle blowers.....5 years and no whistle blowers. EITHER IN JAIL, PAID OFF, OR DEAD!
6) Who is reaping great profit from this hoax......? EVRYONE ON ALL SIDES!
7) What group Politically has everything to gain and nothing to lose by this hoax. NO GROUP...THEY ALL WORK COLLECTIVLEY!
8)Why is there not one Scientist willing to go that extra mile to prove or disprove this hoax....? BECAUSE OF EGO AND POSTION WITHIN THE ACADEMIA.
9)Why in the last 3 years has every anti-nwo/survivalist/etc.....etc....etc...
picked up on the chemtrails hoax and now use them as a main theme of their hate sites......and their anti-establishment propaganda,but when questioned .....run back to their insulated enviroments and hide from scrutiny....as Halva has done time and time again.......? I DON'T KNOW, ASK THEM!


10) here is the last and final question.....why do extreme chemmies run from debunkers and act like fascist little hitlers when they are challenged.......? ITS NATURAL FOR ALL PEOPLE TO BE DEFENSIVE AND SCARED OF TRUTH. BUT THAT IS TRUE FOR BOTH SIDES NOW IS IT NOT?

THE ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS ARE MY OPINION ONLY BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE AND FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE.

I HOPE THIS BEGINS A NEW BRIDGE TO EXCHANGE INFORMATION WITH EACH OTHER TO HELP US BOTH UNDERSTAND!

[gaiacomm]

ah, yes 18 pages of wishy-washy from the chemmie squashys.
But wait, there is something they can't deal with, something they don't want to deal with, something they dare not deal with:

I'm reposting the most deadly questions ever to be asked of any "chemtrail" believers. These questions are so deadly that none
dare touch even one, lest their whole balloon burst!

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?




Jay:

I will attempt to answer your questions, and then you go AWAY or I will have to tell on you!


1.Do you have a background in a technical field?YES, PHYSICS If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? MANY SCIENTIST IF THEY COULD REMAIN CLOAKEDIf no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not? THERE ARE MANY SCIENTIST THAT WOULD SUPPORT IF ONE WOULD COME FORWARD!

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? VARIOUS WEBSITES AND CLASSIFIED KNOWLEDGE If none can be relied upon, why not? MOST OF THE INFO YOU SEEK IS CLASSIFIED!...NSA!!!! AND OTHERS.

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences?NO, BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT A FORUM FOR THAT If not, why not? BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE IS CLASSIFIED!

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"? A IMBALANCE OF THE BIOSPHERE CAUSED BY MANMADE EMISSIONS AND INJECTIONS BY CHEMICALS AND OTHER BY PRODUCT EXHAUSTS INTO THE AIR, LAND AND SEA.

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not? DO A SEARCH ON THE INTERNET!

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails? THE CHEMICAL STRING IS DIFFERENT.

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails? WHAT IS PUBLIC AND WHAT IS NOT!

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"? NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT..PLEASE PROVIDE!

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information? NO MORE THAN YOU BEING A SOURCE!
_________________

[foot_soldier]

I'm not sure why I'm even bothering to post but I can't help noticing that no one here is even remotely addressing the impact of aviation contrails and contrail cirrus on the global atmosphere, weather patterns, etc. The international science community and a great many international policymakers certainly seem to be taking this pretty seriously. It almost seems like there are some people here who don't want to see this particular issue looked at too much. Strange thread.

[halva]

Footsoldier, welcome back, and please know that you can find intelligent discussion on climate change at Megasprayer,

http://chem11.proboards2.com/

There are more and more people coming to this thread at Arianna's forum whose only purpose is to sabotage debate either of climate change or of measures against it, rational or irrational, and those who were hoping that a coherent debate could be maintained in the absence of moderation have given up that hope and left.

Fortunately there are other arenas of real-world political struggle that are not so easy to sabotage as a forum like this, and that is where the fight will go on.

And there are also properly moderated forums like Megasprayer.

None of this means that I plan to leave here, but I have to make best use of what time I have.

[halva]

On the subject of aviation and climate change:

http://www.tyndall.ac.uk/media/press_releases/pr_28.pdf

This issue deserves to be taken up elsewhere on the Arianna forum where the chemtrail debunkers have now also invaded.

It is a distinct issue from the 'chemtrails vs contrails' topic, which is the only thing the debunkers are interested in talking about, as if they live on some other planet.

[halva]

If I interpret that forum's convenor correctly, there would be no objection to Gaiacomm posting at Megasprayer.

I don't know why Big Chief Ray-Jay claimed there would be.

As with much that he says, I suppose it's just a question of try it out and see if it frightens them.

[jayreynolds]

halva wrote:
"There are more and more people coming to this thread at Arianna's forum whose only purpose is to sabotage debate either of climate change or of measures against it, rational or irrational, and those who were hoping that a coherent debate could be maintained in the absence of moderation have given up that hope and left."

halva, you have done everything you can to avoid debate. Don't start lying about how you have done everything you could to sabotage debate by calling for your opponents to be banned and by refusing to answer questions from the other side. Finally, the people on your side simply ran away.

Speaking of questions, in honor of the 33rd page of this thread, here are the questions your side wouldn't answer in 33 pages:

Have your scientist Jim Phelps answer them if you are too afraid.

Either you will engage in debate on topic, or you concede that after 33 pages, you cannot yet answer even the most basic questions regarding your claim.
============

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If so, what is it? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

10. What is your claim about the purpose of "chemtrails, what are they for?

[halva]

http://www.columbusalive.com/2001/20011206/120601/12060101.html

Ken Caldeira, a scientist at Lawrence Livermore Labs and one of the country’s leading experts on weather modification, conducted the original computer modeling for the use of aluminum oxide to fight global warming. He told Columbus Alive, “We originally did this study to show that this program [using massive spraying for weather modification] shouldn’t be done,” due to negative health effects. Caldeira said there are persistent rumors that the Bush administration will announce geo-engineering weather modification projects this spring. Caldeira sees this as “political suicide.”

[jayreynolds]

halva wrote:
"If I interpret that forum's convenor correctly, there would be no objection to Gaiacomm posting at Megasprayer.

I don't know why Big Chief Ray-Jay claimed there would be. "

Look, Wayne, giacomm will not be allowed to post at chem11proboards.
That's the word, take it to the bank.

I see it finally got too much, even chem11 couldn't allow you to carry on your 'olympic chemtrail hoax' and exposed it for what it really was.
http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=Discussion&action=display&num=1069283108

Be careful, there's been more and more 'chatter'
coming out between the lines amongst some you might consider allies. Make no mistake, the thousands of page views this thread has generated have mostly been from "chemtrail" believers. They see how stupid you were to come outside the box and perform so poorly. The ones like chem11 positively ache to post but don't because too close an association with an idiot nzi such as yourself has it's own costs. 'Sore' abandoned you and everybody there remembers how you sabotaged so much at Chemtrailcentral. Watch your backside, halva, the more you screw up the less support you have, and it's starting to show.

[halva]

I told people to stop wasting their time here, so don't talk to me about 'abandonment'.

[jayreynolds]

Well, bring on the debate, halva, don't lie to people and say someone tried to "sabotage" it.

Bring it on.
Answer the questions, halva.

If it's debate you want, get after it.

[jayreynolds]

wrote that piece three years ago.
Where's the beef?

[halva]

United States Patent 6,315,213
Cordani November 13, 2001
Method of modifying weather
Abstract
A method for artificially modifying the weather by seeding rain clouds of a storm with suitable cross-linked aqueous polymer. The polymer is dispersed into the cloud and the wind of the storm agitates the mixture causing the polymer to absorb the rain. This reaction forms a gelatinous substance which precipitate to the surface below. Thus, diminishing the clouds ability to rain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inventors: Cordani; Peter (1374 N. Killian Dr., Lake Park, FL 33403)
Appl. No.: 598660
Filed: June 21, 2000

Current U.S. Class: 239/2.1; 239/14.1; 252/194
Intern'l Class: A01G 015/00
Field of Search: 239/2.1,14.1 252/194

What is claimed is:

1. A method for artificially modifying weather by seeding a rain cloud comprising:
forming an aqueous solidifier material capable of retaining over three hundred times its own weight in water, wherein said aqueous solidifier material is a cross-linked aqueous based polymer; dispersing said material into a suitable cloud formation, wherein the wind generated by the storm causes said solidifier to mix with rain to form a gel like substance; said gel like substance being of sufficient weight to precipitate to the surface below thereby diminishing the velocity of the cloud.

2. The method of claim 1 wherein said dispersion of aqueous solidifier is from an aircraft traversing the cloud.

3. The method of claim 1 wherein said dispersion of aqueous solidifier is from the surface below.

4. The cross-linked aqueous polymer of claim 1 wherein said polymer is a cross-linked modified polyacrylamides.

5. The cross-linked polymer of 1 wherein said material is between 50 and 4000 microns.

6. The method of claim 1 wherein the amount of said aqueous solidifier needed is precalculated based upon the size of the storm and the absorption properties of said aqueous solidifier.

7. The methods of claim 1 wherein said aqueous solidifier is biodegradable and nonhazardous.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Description
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FIELD OF THE INVENTION

This invention relates generally to weather modification and in particular to the use of polymers to absorb aqueous solutions capable of modifying a weather situation.

BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

Hurricanes, tropical storms, typhoons, and the like weather patterns can cause severe damage to land, buildings, and living creatures. The resulting damage from even an isolated event can be billions of dollars as evidenced by Hurricane Andrew.

Cloud seeding is a known process for artificially modifying the weather by injecting a composition into a cloud for formation of an ice freezing nuclei. Silver iodide is a well known substance used for cloud seeding. Ice freezing nuclei have the effect of creating rain, reducing hail, and possibly preventing rain by overseeding.

U.S. Pat. No. 5,174,498 discloses a cloud seeding material useful for seeding supercooled clouds in order to augment rainfall. The material used in seeding is defined as a aliphatic long-chain alcohol.

U.S. Pat. No. 4,600,147 discloses a cloud seeding method of inserting liquid propane from a rocket. The liquid propane is used to generate large numbers of ice crystals in supercooled clouds.

U.S. Pat. No. 5,357,865 discloses yet another method of cloud seeding. This invention includes the use of a pyrotechnic composition such as potassium chlorate or potassium perchlorate which act as nuclei for precipitable water drop formation.

U.S. Pat. No. 4,096,005 discloses a pyrotechnic cloud seeding composition comprising silver iodate and a fuel from the consisting of aluminum and magnesium.

Thus, the prior art teachings are directed to methods of creating rain. What is lacking in the art is a method of lessening the wind velocities of a storm.

SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

The instant application discloses a method of modifying weather by seeding storm clouds with a polymer. The storm clouds are seeded by dispersing a superabsorbent polymer into the cloud in sufficient quantities to cause a large absorption of water. The reaction of the water with the polymer creates a gel-like substance that precipitates to the surface. Thus, causing an internal constriction with the cloud to lessen storm velocities.

A superabsorbent polymer is a resin capable of absorbing water up to several thousands times as its own weight. These superabsorbent polymers are prepared from water-soluble polymers, but have cross-linking structures which render the polymers water-insoluble. By taking water-soluble ethylenically unsaturated monomers which readily undergo vinyl polymerizaton, such as acrylamide, with the use of cross linking agents, a polymer can be produced that is of uniform small size, has a high gel capacity, is highly insoluble, but highly water swellable i.e. a superabsorbent polymer. (Gel capacity refers to the property of the water swollen polymer to resist viscosity changes as a result of mechanical working or milling.)

Superabsorbent polymers can be dehydrated to a powder. When the powder is added to an aqueous solution and agitated, the polymer is able to absorb many times its weight of the water molecules and a gel-like substance is formed. Superabsorbent polymers are particularly suited for uses where rapid asorption of aqueous fluid is desired or for uses where the swelling properties in water are employed.

Accordingly, it is an objective of the instant invention to present a method for artificially modifying weather wherein a polymer is used to cause wind dissipation by heaving weighting condensation with the clouds.

It is another objective of the instant invention to present a method for seeding a rain cloud with a cross-linked polymer such that the wind of the storm provides the agitation for the reaction of the polymer with the water.

It is an additional objective of the instant invention to present a method for modifying storms such that the solid end product is biodegradable and nonhazardous.

Other objectives and advantages of this invention will become apparent from the following description wherein are set forth, by way of example, certain embodiments of this invention.

DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE INVENTION

The present invention relates to a method for artificially modifying weather by solidifying portions of a cloud in a storm such as a hurricane, by introducing polymers into the cloud. This method utilizes "superabsorbent" aqueous based polymers, preferably cross linked modified polyacrylamides which can be used in any application where aqueous solidification is permissible. An example of a superabsorbent aqueous based polymer is manufactured by JRM Chemical Inc. under the trademark H-series.

In the present invention, a solid form of the superabsorbent polymer, such as a powder, is introduced into the rain clouds of a storm in a suitable manner, for instance a aircraft may traverse the storm and release the polymer seeds or they may be released from a seeding flare delivered from the surface or from an aircraft. The amount of polymer needed is predetermined based upon the size and severity of the storm along with the absorption capacity of the polymer used. The wind of the storm provides the agitation that causes the polymer to bind with the water forming a gel-like substance. As a result of this method, wind based water storms can be artificially modified.

The use of a biodegradable polymer allows for safe use of the ocean wherein the high salinity of the water will expedite the degradation of the material. Various biodegradable superabsorbent polymers include carboxy-methylcellulose, alginic acid, cross-linked starches, cross-linked polyamino acids and a cross-linked modified polyacrylamides.

In a dry state the preferred polymer may be considered a particle having a diameter less than 4000 microns but greater than 50 microns. In a swollen state the particle may have a diameter greater than three hundred times its weight. In a totally water-swollen state, the particles contain up to about 99.98 weight percent of water and a little as about 0.1 weight percent of polymer. Thus, such particles could hold from ten to thousands of times their own weight. By seeding a leading edge of a violent storm, such as a hurricane, the winds cause a mix of the material wherein moisture is absorbed by the material causing a shearing effect. The shearing effect causes the polymers to absorb, lose, and reabsorb water countless times. During this exchange, the weight of the water being transferred allowing for wind shearing that assists in lessening the velocity of the wind.

The shearing forces are affected by the nature of the interactions between the particles during such collisions. When attractive forces dominate, the particles will aggregate and the dispersion may destabilize.

Example: A hurricane is seeded with approximately 30,000 lbs of a superabsorbent aqueous based polymer by use of a transport plane flying through the leading edge of the storm. Within twenty seconds the polymer will obtain over 70 percent of its absorption capacity or nearly three hundred times its weight. The winds of the storm will continue to disperse the materials causing a form of internal flocculation disrupting the feeding nature of the storm. When presented close to land, the storm will not have sufficient time to reform to its previous strength.

It is to be understood that while I have illustrated and described certain forms of my invention, it is not to be limited to the specific forms herein described. It will be apparent to those skilled in the art that various changes may be made without departing from the scope of the invention and the invention is not to be considered limited to what is shown in the drawings and described in the specification.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='6,315,213'.WKU.&OS=PN/6,315,213&RS=PN/6,315,213

[gaiacomm]

ah, yes 18 pages of wishy-washy from the chemmie squashys.
But wait, there is something they can't deal with, something they don't want to deal with, something they dare not deal with:

I'm reposting the most deadly questions ever to be asked of any "chemtrail" believers. These questions are so deadly that none
dare touch even one, lest their whole balloon burst!

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?




Jay:

I will attempt to answer your questions, and then you go AWAY or I will have to tell on you!


1.Do you have a background in a technical field?YES, PHYSICS If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? MANY SCIENTIST IF THEY COULD REMAIN CLOAKEDIf no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not? THERE ARE MANY SCIENTIST THAT WOULD SUPPORT IF ONE WOULD COME FORWARD!

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? VARIOUS WEBSITES AND CLASSIFIED KNOWLEDGE If none can be relied upon, why not? MOST OF THE INFO YOU SEEK IS CLASSIFIED!...NSA!!!! AND OTHERS.

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences?NO, BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT A FORUM FOR THAT If not, why not? BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE IS CLASSIFIED!

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"? A IMBALANCE OF THE BIOSPHERE CAUSED BY MANMADE EMISSIONS AND INJECTIONS BY CHEMICALS AND OTHER BY PRODUCT EXHAUSTS INTO THE AIR, LAND AND SEA.

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not? DO A SEARCH ON THE INTERNET!

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails? THE CHEMICAL STRING IS DIFFERENT.

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails? WHAT IS PUBLIC AND WHAT IS NOT!

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"? NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT..PLEASE PROVIDE!

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information? NO MORE THAN YOU BEING A SOURCE!
_________________

[jayreynolds]

Your Dr. Nikos Katsaros, PhD. has at his disposal the resources of a complete chemistry analytical lab. if such a thing was eing dropped on Greece he could detect it. He told me no evidence supports the idea of "chemtrails",
"WHATSOEVER".

Where's the beef?

I can find patents for flying saucers, doesn't mean they have ever been built, or ever could really work. that's why your patent starts out by saying:

"What is claimed is:"

Let's keep a debate about facts in the realm of reality, not just empty claims.

[gaiacomm]

ah, yes 18 pages of wishy-washy from the chemmie squashys.
But wait, there is something they can't deal with, something they don't want to deal with, something they dare not deal with:

I'm reposting the most deadly questions ever to be asked of any "chemtrail" believers. These questions are so deadly that none
dare touch even one, lest their whole balloon burst!

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?




Jay:

I will attempt to answer your questions, and then you go AWAY or I will have to tell on you!


1.Do you have a background in a technical field?YES, PHYSICS If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? MANY SCIENTIST IF THEY COULD REMAIN CLOAKEDIf no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not? THERE ARE MANY SCIENTIST THAT WOULD SUPPORT IF ONE WOULD COME FORWARD!

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? VARIOUS WEBSITES AND CLASSIFIED KNOWLEDGE If none can be relied upon, why not? MOST OF THE INFO YOU SEEK IS CLASSIFIED!...NSA!!!! AND OTHERS.

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences?NO, BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT A FORUM FOR THAT If not, why not? BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE IS CLASSIFIED!

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"? A IMBALANCE OF THE BIOSPHERE CAUSED BY MANMADE EMISSIONS AND INJECTIONS BY CHEMICALS AND OTHER BY PRODUCT EXHAUSTS INTO THE AIR, LAND AND SEA.

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not? DO A SEARCH ON THE INTERNET!

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails? THE CHEMICAL STRING IS DIFFERENT.

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails? WHAT IS PUBLIC AND WHAT IS NOT!

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"? NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT..PLEASE PROVIDE!

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information? NO MORE THAN YOU BEING A SOURCE!
_________________

[letxa2000]

halva: There are more and more people coming to this thread at Arianna's forum whose only purpose is to sabotage debate either of climate change or of measures against it, rational or irrational, and those who were hoping that a coherent debate could be maintained in the absence of moderation have given up that hope and left... And there are also properly moderated forums like Megasprayer.

Moderation should only serve to keep a forum enjoyable when people start the name-calling (which I've seen both sides guilty of over time). "Proper" moderation should never be used to shut opposing viewpoints out. That's censorship, not moderation. Big difference.

[gaiacomm]

halva: There are more and more people coming to this thread at Arianna's forum whose only purpose is to sabotage debate either of climate change or of measures against it, rational or irrational, and those who were hoping that a coherent debate could be maintained in the absence of moderation have given up that hope and left... And there are also properly moderated forums like Megasprayer.

Moderation should only serve to keep a forum enjoyable when people start the name-calling (which I've seen both sides guilty of over time). "Proper" moderation should never be used to shut opposing viewpoints out. That's censorship, not moderation. Big difference.


Readers:

I suggest that this thread be dissolved for obvious reasons. What started as a question became a mud slinging debate with posters from the underworld fighting with the lord of the rings. No winners in this contest, just confusion, slander, insults, threats, racist remarks, religious remarks, scientific debate with no creditable representation and just a good ole free for all.

Jay and others have some good points and so does Halva and his group. Maybe the way of presentation without all of the chatter would help promote some understanding of the facts.

We all know that it is very difficult to prove chemtrails at the level you wish and the other side knows this and taunts you all into a box canyon of debate.

But there is enough de-classified facts that do warrant a full disclosure by someone.

Finding that someone is the problem...finding the holy grail is the problem.

Until both sides can come to terms with each other and use the resources that are avaliable to both sides an answer to all of your questions with proof can be gotten.

Then it is up to both sides to accept the results with dignity, period!

I rest my case!

[halva]

It is a non-viable pose that you are striking here Gaiacomm.

[airtankerpilot]

Halva and debate do not belong in the same paragraph. Debate is not when everyone has the same idea and conclusions. Its when there are two sides to a debate, but he has repeated stated his desire to see the other side squelched and banned.

There is no debate on that megasprayer site, just the paranoid and blind, patting each other on the back with their kooky conspiracy talk.

Go on there and try and debate, and see how long before you get banned.

How can you have a debate without the other side? Halva obviously wants to steer the debate to a friendly venue where the other side can be shut up.

This is a perfectly good place for a debate, where neither side is hosting the board, and no one can be banned.

If you cant take the heat, then quit making silly accusations of spraying and accusing airline and military pilots of spraying their own country and the world.

Its obvious the chemtrail side intentionally avoids researching the specifics of aviation, aircraft, air traffic control, weather etc.

All they can do is show contrail photos, post patents, and claim that is proof.

All this time, not one photo of a plane outfitted for spraying, not one lab report, not even one sample.

If you want to have an idea of how paranoid these people can be, look at these two examples.

The owner of the carnicom.com chemtrail site, is now resorting to pulling his teeth out on his own, looking for "fibrils" and fibers. His chemtrail belief led him to silly ideas of blood cells released from aircraft, and now he is doing Do it Yourself Dentistry.

And there is good old Sonny E Gowl, who writes down the plates of every car that drives past his house, because they are all "spraying" him.

These are the mindsets of chemtrail believers. Lots of paranoia, goofy conspiracies, but no evidence or specifics.

[jayreynolds]

chemtrail debunking is growing in popularity.
This site from Denmark.

http://www.hans-egebo.dk/Skeptic/contrails.htm

Coming soon, a Greek chemtrail debunking site.
Won't that be nice, wayne?

[airtankerpilot]

I did not draw it, but I like it. Accurately captures the paranoia, and lack of any real science in their pet conspiracy.

[jayreynolds]

"This is getting fun over there, watching them squirm. They have admitted they have no evidence, and halvas idea of debate is numerous attempts to move the discussion to megasprayer.

Oh and shall we count how many times they have tried to divert the subject away from their lack of evidence?"
http://pub31.ezboard.com/fcontrailsandchemtrails22884frm1.showMessage?topic ID=2311.topic
===================
"My old hometown newspaper used to regularly publish letters about chemtrails - they had a few nuts in town promoting it, and about every day there were letters in the newspaper. It was quite a farce. The main proponent even made a video and showed it on the public access channel. Sadly, my mother bought into the whole thing. I've pointed out to her that I've worked on aircraft with jet engines, and I've never, ever, seen any chemtrail apparatus, so she has to conclude either that I am lying to her and part of the coverup, or she is wrong. She was nonplused, yet I think she still believes it. oye.

A typical claim in the newspaper was along the lines of "i was driving along... looked up, saw an airplane, suddenly a chemtrail started to form, and instantly I felt a bad itching in my throat....took me a trip to the hospital and 3 days to recover..."

A rational person would write in about dispersal rates and how there is no way they could feel the effect of any chemical sprayed at 30,000 ft just seconds after it was released, and the typical response was along the lines of "I know what I experienced...blah, blah, blah".

There are not enough rolly eye smilies in the world to properly express my feelings on this subject."
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870365824
========================
"I doubt any of those panzies would take you up on it. If they don't have the power to ban you during a debate (BTW how do you debate with somebody who's delusional anyways?) then they know better and how they would be made a fool. What you need to understand and look at ctc is if you think different and are not a believer you are banned. Time and time again we see this xxxxx xxx tactic by these folks. I hope they have a public awareness meeting near me in the up and coming future, I'll go and challenge them in person right on the spot. I know a flyboy who would be willing to go with and make mince meat out of the chemmie folk.
dam straight!
http://com1.runboard.com/b13thcentury.fthenewdebunkatorium.t43
=========================
"I have recently become interested in the “chemtrail controversy” to which much web space is currently dedicated. I must admit, I have certain reservations regarding the validity of the many assertions I have read and interpretations of the photos I have seen.

I hold a private pilot license and, as a pilot, I have a rudimentary understanding of meteorology and the formation of clouds and “contrails” (condensation trails) produced by aircraft. Much of the “chemtrail evidence” I have seen does not mesh with solid scientific facts I have been taught as a pilot."
http://www.nmsr.org/chemtrls.htm
==========================
"We've all seen planes flying overhead. Sometimes they leave long lasting contrails behind them. Well, someone got it into his head that these contrails weren't "normal".

Someone must be spraying the populace with chemicals, and that "someone" must be the government because no one wants to deceive and kill the people as much as the government. Of course, if the government killed everyone, I don't know who's supposed to pay the taxes that keeps the government going, but that is another issue altogether."
http://www.seawana.com/conspiracy_chemtrails.php
=========================
"Classic symptoms of schizophrenia.

was foil hats, now chemtrails, used to be demons.

schizophrenic patients have symptoms of malevolent "entities" or odd "feelings" that they cannot control. Auditory hallucinatons ("kill the children for satan!" ) etc.

It's believed that there is somethign wrong with their brains so that they do not have the sensation of "I am thinking this" but that some part of their brain thinks it but it "feels" like it is coming from without.

It is so disturbing and horrible---but unimaginable that the "They" out there is actually the "I"---that victims want to do everything they can to stop it.

So whatever the common ideas of the age (electricity, chemicals, demons) are, they assume there must be something out there that is evil to explain their symptoms.

What is really strange and unfortunate is that the one thing that actually does make them better (medication) is something that many really will do anything to avoid taking. of course they think the doctors are all out to get them too.

now not all chemtrail believers are paranoid schizophrenics obvoiusly, but it is a sign that the weakness is there.

if there is something "big" and "out there" and "mysterious" and not under somebody's control, that causes massive anxiety.

why else the paranoia about radiation?
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=28570
==========================

[jayreynolds]

so, you want to "spiral on down" into the mind of a chemtrail moron?
Be my guest:
Jay
===================
Purple 'Reptoid" Crow

Purple "Reptoid" Crow
Lizard aliens, the NWO, Chemtrails and much more!

Have you seen a Reptilian entity shift forms?
If so - I want to hear from you.

Not all forms of fascism have to equate precisely to the classic form represented by Hitler or Mussolini. Fascism doesn't have to involve mass genocidal slaughter, nor does it have to be equal in degree to the fascism practiced by members of the Axis powers. Traits of classic fascism include: strong nationalism, expansionism, belligerent militarism, meshing of big business and government with a corporate/government oligarchy, subversion of democracy and human rights, disinformation spread by constant propaganda and tight corporate/government control of the press.

Today all of these conditions exist in most countries to various degrees.

Some years ago a Judge's remarks after sentencing someone in a "tax crime" case in the Northwest, a federal judge expressed the opinion that people involved with "these groups" (You know who you are!) are actually afflicted with some type of mental illness. I think he meant it. This judge simply hadn't the foggiest notion how any sane human being could lose family, fortune, and freedom and still refuse to give in. Perhaps this judge knew exactly what he was doing being a shepherd for 'rebelious sheeple'. Of interest, the judge made no comment on what manner of mental health allows a man known as "Your Honor" to omfortably facilitate the government's destruction of another man's life in the absence of any charging statute or plainly demonstrated legal duty to hich a penalty statute might apply. Aiding and abetting political and judicial fraud could be a sign of an evil heart; but perhaps we should withhold judgment. "Your Honor" could plead "mental illness".

Though it goes by various names, there is a loosely associated band of people who just have a terrible time tolerating tyranny -- especially the lying, hypocritical, cowardly variety. Amongst this merry band of "patriots" (although what is left to be "patriotic" about is sometimes a wonder) there is a good bit of disagreement, even rancor. This is not surprising. After all, what personality types are apt to take a stand against a power as awesome and intimidating as the government of the United States, Canada or the UK? Shy, cautious people-pleasers? No offense to all the "B-type" personalities out there, but ... I don't think so.

There are probably numerous stories similar to that of our un-named "patriot".

One day after years of research, personal paranormal encounters and interviews with hundreds of eye witnesses to UFOs and alien abduction, Purple Crow hears allegations that "UFO research groups" are a fraud and the world is not what it seems, especially in the field of paranormal research. The word "Illuminati" is first uttered by a cryptic shaking man who after uttering these very words runs to his car and skids off as if about to die for merely speaking to Purple Crow. Purple is the independent, self-confident, curious type, so he digs into the subject. Purple Crow has learned to ALWAYS ask questions after years of personal paranormal encounters, including direct ET contact. In a few months his entire world view is turned upside down as he has discovered far more than he bargained for. Believing that "the Truth shall set you free", Purple confronts his peers regarding these 'rumours', certain that this corruption must be exposed and he can make a difference.

On the initial leg of his sojourn, Purple meets a number of kindred souls who reinforce his views and appear to share his contempt for "the lie" and his desire to confront those who perpetrate it.

Jumping ahead 2 or 3 years, Purple's girlfriend has taken the Y2K supplies (2 months before midnight 2000), the house and the bank account ... and left him. Another employer has fired him, and he is living out of the back of his friend's house across the US border. This goes on for a couple of years as Purple, living like a Jew running from the NAZIs, attempts to regain his balance, during which time Purple writes a book while staying in a few different 'safe houses' and finds a way to generate some relatively "safe" and quite temporary cashflow for the first time in a while in the form of donations for his research on his new website. Purple then finds out that the "unregulated" world of "free enterprise" has at least as many crooks, hucksters and fools in it as the "system" ever hoped to have. Book-deal after book-deal falls through while he attempts to share everything he knows with earnest intent to help others help themselves. Friends turn into enemies as ears and hearts close to what Purple has exposed with documented factual reports.

Keep in mind that Purple is now several years into being deprived of his family, his career and much of anything resembling a "normal" life. Purple is experiencing the "convert's awakening": people may go to your church and read out of the same scriptures you do, but that does not mean they understand things the way you do; nor does it mean they are automatically competent and trustworthy. All corruption comes from WITHIN each system of trust.

Purple Crow discovers that the "patriot" world of solid political change also has a few people who are self-serving, dishonest, deceived, desperate and, in some cases, just not very bright. About this time Purple is feeling isolated, betrayed, a bit hopeless ... and, yes, incredibly angry. Everything he believed in ten years ago has turned to crap; and now the people who showed him this crap in the first place are themselves turning out to be crap. To quote the forlorn Mel Brooks' character in the movie of the same name, "Life stinks!"

Purple now becomes quite a handful -- a bit unstable, to put it mildly. Not knowing what other direction to take, Purple actually accelerates his study of every theory he can find that might explain how "they are doing it to us." Each new theory comes with an impressive rationale and set of "proofs", along with a handful of anecdotal "wins". However, Purple becomes a rabid new convert to each "silver bullet" and angrily denounces his former gurus, placing himself as the new guru of truth all the while attempting to inspire others to do as he has done, following no one, trusting few -- denouncing anyone else who dares to debunk his newly found set of "proofs". Purple has even been known to spread nasty, vindictive information about other people in "the Movement", even going so far as to threaten them with "legal action".

Virtually all of Purple's former family and friends, of course, have thought he was crazy from the instant he announced that income tax is an illegal fraud, a tired old argument that he leaves to other 'researchers' to continue to expose. Now, however, people "in the Movement" are becoming convinced that Purple is a genuine nut-case, maybe a government agent, and certainly a detriment to any effort to restore honest, Constitutional government free from corruption. Purple's bold, outspoken research has left him pretty much on his own as he heads back to a more underground private life where he continues to explore even deeper realms of contact with otherworldly beings to share in mutual respect whatever he can before the inevitable global ET contact day transpires.

So, what do people think of Purple Crow? Some people tend to agree with the judge: Purple is now genuinely afflicted with a form of 'mental illness'. The difference is that some people know who did it to him. Purple was quite literally shoved into the abyss of emotional illness by none other than "Your Honor" and every other judge like him -- as well as every friend, every family member, and every Canadian, American and European who suffers from the far more serious problem of character deficiency.

Give thanks for all the Purple Crow's out there who were strong enough to continue to be "mentally ill" enough to recognize and resist corrupt government, let alone the same sickness that lives within the paranormal 'community'. Purple may make some bad choices in his own personal behavior. He may sink into confusion, even self-deception, and may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer; but whatever his personal shortcomings, Purple Crow was at least MAN enough at some point to take a stand against corruption, tyranny -- and against the TRULY insane behavior of an entire society that holds up a set of ideals, principles and laws collectively misrepresented, trampled and defiled on a daily basis.

Give me a man driven mad by adherance to the principle of truth over ignorant bliss any day over a man whose "success" in this world requires him to be a liar, a coward and a hypocrite. God may heal the former; the latter may never see His face.


ENTER MAIN SITE:

http://geocities.com/Reptoid_27/

hey, who am I to debate with logic like this?