It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature

[gaiacomm]

Yes, the person posing as "Dr. Judah Ben-hur" is Lance Haubrick.
Of that, I am certain.


Prove it!

[gaiacomm]

JR this is going to be a comedy watching you attempt to change spacetime and create one person out of two. Einstein should take note of this magic trick!

Ok JR we are waiting for your proof! Readers lets finally get closure on this and JR and company will self ban themseleves. Also Wayne make sure that the Chemtrail forum gets this story when finished. JR will be the laughing stock of the internet!

[halva]

We are already expending far too much of our time on this person Reynolds.

I am embarrassed to mention him to anyone outside this little ghetto we have here. I am certainly not going to say anything to CTC or anybody.

I am even embarrassed to a certain extent to have telephoned this innocent bystander Haubrick.. What kind of a world to we get ourselves into when we allow the absolute certainties of a Reynolds to influence ANY of our thoughts or actions.

We cannot make a laughing stock of Reynolds because we have all been contaminated by having too much to do with him.

Gaiacomm either get your Lance Haubrick to take Reynolds to court for slanderous misrepresentation or forget about this whole business.

[halva]

Yes, the person posing as "Dr. Judah Ben-hur" is Lance Haubrick.
Of that, I am certain.

What kind of a situation are we in when we spend our time arguing with a bullshitter who punts on uninvolved individuals NOT BEING BOTHERED to refute the nonsense that is said about them.

[gaiacomm]

What kind of a situation are we in when we spend our time arguing with a bullshitter who punts on uninvolved individuals NOT BEING BOTHERED to refute the nonsense that is said about them.

Your right! I already have taken care of JR and company in my own way. Lance can do whatever he pleases.

[gaiacomm]

Now that JR and company are out of the way, Wayne now you can now carry on with business.

[halva]

Given that you insisted on making overtures to Reynolds, I thought that you could both use your symbiotic relationship to improve your position instead of dragging the rest of us down.

Not so. Bad luck for both of you.

[jayreynolds]

I see that over at CTC I have been offered a wager. Gambling is sinful because it proposes to take something from someone with nothing given in return, so I will refuse the offer.
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002130.html

I will, however, propose a morally acceptable and mutually beneficial counteroffer.
In return for a seat onboard the sampling plane, I offer USD$200.00 to be given when sufficient funds have been collected from chemmies to pay for such an effort.

Just in case this sounds like a low bid offer, consider the math:

quotation for sampling effort- $5,000.00
This amount needs to be collected from chemmies, but how many are there?

List of "chemtrail" messageboards and membership:
I'm sure I have missed several forums. Pardon any omissions
=========================
method of destruction- 184 members
chemtrailcentral-2168
megasprayer news-289
etheric freedom fighters- 644
Carnicom's aerosol crimes&coverup~500
yahoo boards-
chemtrailsaustralia- 6
westcoastchemtrails-6
chemtrails_forum-16
californiachemtrails-127
chemtrails&more-38
chem-trails-5
tapa-chemtrails-159
cnadianchemtrails-21
canadianchemtrailtracking-11
chemicalsprayersjetheavy-9
chemtrailinternetresearch-58
chemtrailphotoscttusa-121
chemtrailsforum-15
chemtrailsphotos-117
chemtrailtrackingusa-3261
cloudbusters-578
chemtrails2- 71
arklatexchemtrailsreporting-34
chemtrailprotest-26
houstonskywatch-29
radarmatrix2003-114
californiachemtrails-91
chemtrailsuk-5
chemtrailtheories-14
tennesseechemtrails-25
chemtrackers-10
chemtrailillnessresearch-107
======================
Total membership- 8859

$5000.00 divided by 8859 people equals 56 cents each.
Therefore, Jay Reynolds' contribution will be equal to the contribution of 357 chemmies.

Bring it on, Wayne.

[halva]

My proposal was that you should accept Gaiacomm's offer, not make proposals to me. My only objective personally is to remove you from this debate.

The Lance Haubrick matter is not finished with yet.

1. Acknowledge, Raynolds, that you gamble on being regarded as so irrelevant and insignificant that a person like Haubrick could not be bothered trying to challenge the slanderous assertions you make about him on a public notice board.

2. Acknowledge also that the reason you are incapable of being friendly to Gaiacomm is that he reminds you so much of yourself.

[halva]

Another reminder that one alternative to continued contaminating exposure to Reynolds is to apply for membership in our closed forum.

There will be some information up soon in the closed forum on Gabriel Stetter's dealings with Greenpeace.

[halva]

Another bad development:

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002134.html

[jayreynolds]

Another bad development:

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002134.html

Well, Wayne, what molliani says is true, but that's not news.
The folks at chemtrailcentral knew giacon was a liar and a fraud a year ago, you just are a little slower on the uptake:

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/001395-2.html

BTW, somebody needs to take a look at that Ellyn. Besides being the most racist poster ever, at CTC, the supposed text she quotes from CTTUSA doesn't exist there!

She skillfully edited her post 4 times using black text on a black background to hide it, why?????? There is lots of hocus-pocus going on within the "chemtrails" hoax. many people are not what they would at first glance seem.

Many of them are what I would describe as "tarbabys". Read the story and you will understand why you shouldn't get all stuck up fighting a "tarbaby", rather get smart and expose them for what they really are.

'Ellyn' is a fraud and a liar too, in case you didn't know.. Not even a woman.......

[jayreynolds]

I always get a kick out of chemmies' selective memories when it comes to recollections of how the weather "used to be" before they joined the cult of belief. To hear them, it seems there was never a cloud in the 'always blue' sky. Summers were always hot, winters always cold, nothing ever changed.

So I had to laugh at Dona Terry's description of Houston's weather. She is about 60 years old, and yes indeedy Houston has had a very wet year. here is the way she describes it:
"I want to share what I see as a difference in our weather, as I
remember it, growing up on the Texas Gulf Coast. 50 years ago,
during July and August, all of the grass would be burned, brown, and
NOT growing. And the trees would be burned, most leaves brown and
dropping. Now, in comparison, just by looking, it seems that we are
living in a tropical paradise. I've never seen the lawns or trees
looking more plush – and it is mid-July. This notable change I
am guessing is due to the increase in the "greenhouse gases" in
our atmosphere (mostly CO2); all of the vegetation is deep green.
Much can be found on the Internet of the increase in CO2 in the
atmosphere now."

Guess again, Dona. Here is the truth about Houston's weather:
http://www.srh.noaa.gov/hgx/climate/iah/extremes/annualiah-top10.htm
Top 10
Wettest
72.86 1900
72.38 1919
71.18 2001
70.16 1973
68.97 1946
64.22 1949
63.85 1959
62.97 1961
62.84 1923
62.51 1907
Top 10
Driest
17.66 1917
22.93 1988
27.09 1901
27.10 1951
28.08 1999
29.03 1893
29.46 1948
30.59 1910
31.56 1956
31.78 1954
Top 10
Warmest
71.7 1933
71.5 1927
71.3 1954
71.2 1956
71.1 1950
71.1 1921
70.9 1965
70.8 1957
70.8 1911
70.7 1998
Top 10
Coolest
65.8 1976
66.5 1983
66.5 1979
66.7 1978
66.9 1891
67.1 1970
67.4 1997
67.5 1977
67.5 1903
67.5 1899

[halva]

1. Acknowledge, Raynolds, that you gamble on being regarded as so irrelevant and insignificant that a person like Haubrick could not be bothered trying to challenge the slanderous assertions you make about him on a public notice board.

2. Acknowledge also that the reason you are incapable of being friendly to Gaiacomm is that he reminds you so much of yourself.

I note, Raynolds, that you do not cite Lance Haubrick's non-response to your allegations about him as evidence of their correctness. Why don't you?

[halva]

Another reminder to those tiring of the smell of this sewer that there is an alternative forum.

And a reminder to the moderators of Arianna Online that it is possible to expel Reynolds.

[jayreynolds]

Another reminder to those tiring of the smell of this sewer that there is an alternative forum.

And a reminder to the moderators of Arianna Online that it is possible to expel Reynolds.


Why do chemmies have to run away to 'hidey holes' to talk, Wayne?
Why are you all so afraid to face the light of day and open debate?
Why are you so afraid of being challenged that you resort to calls to silence and "expel" anyone who disagrees with you?

Why can't you answer these simple basic questions about your own beliefs?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

WHY ARE YOU CHEMMIES SO AFRAID OF THESE SIMPLE QUESTIONS?

YOU FEAR THE ANSWERS BECAUSE THEY REVEAL THAT YOU ALREADY KNOW THAT "CHEMTRAILS" ARE JUST ORDINARY CONTRAILS.

YOU KNOW. [/

[jayreynolds]

Wayne, your leadership never fails to demonstrate their stupidity and ignorance.
Case in point:
Dona Terry, founder and banmistress of CTTUSA, writes:
"One characteristic of chemtrails is the "tassled look", where at
uniform intervals, the trails "drip", making it look like tassles are
hanging down from the line. This formation, in my opinion, is a
result of the "pump" action of the spraying mechanism. If it were a
true contrail, it would be a consistent stream of exhaust -- a nearly
straight line -- not the surges caused by the pump."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/message/113622
=======================
The periodic ripples seen in contrails is due to wake vortices that form from the wingtips.
For a scientific explanation, see:
http://eiger.mae.wvu.edu/AEAP99.html

For historic WWII contrail photos which prove this is nothing different from ordinary contrails made sixty years ago:
http://worldzone.net/science/reality2u30/wwiitrails.html
=========================
See, Wayne, you and Dona remain intentionally ignorant. You set yourself up for a fall when you shut your ears and refuse to participate in debate. You don't progress by learning anything, rather you remain gullible fools able to be hornswoggled by any old "tarbaby" that comes along.

Caution to chemmies:
Realize "chemtrails is a dead-end hoax.
Get smart.
Get over it.
Get out of it.
Get a life.

[halva]

1. Acknowledge, Raynolds, that you gamble on being regarded as so irrelevant and insignificant that a person like Haubrick could not be bothered trying to challenge the slanderous assertions you make about him on a public notice board.

2. Acknowledge also that the reason you are incapable of being friendly to Gaiacomm is that he reminds you so much of yourself.

Not only does Raynolds not even attempt to confront these statements. He also no longer even makes any pretence to doing anything other than using this thread to score points at the expense of individuals unknown to the Arianna forum who happen to preside over or participate in chemtrails forums from which he has been excluded.

[halva]

I note, Raynolds, that you do not cite Lance Haubrick's non-response to your allegations about him as evidence of their correctness. Why don't you?

[jayreynolds]

I note, Raynolds, that you do not cite Lance Haubrick's non-response to your allegations about him as evidence of their correctness. Why don't you?

Wayne, I've told you several times, Lance has been posing for years as "Dr. Judah Ben-hur".
He has been exposed numerous times over those years as a fraud and a liar.
I showed you above how your own best chemmies friends tried to show you last summer just what a goofball he is.

Now you have again gotten "stuck up" in his tarbaby, because you weren't born in the brier patch and haven't a lick'o sense. You did the same when you followed William Thomas, the same when you followed David Stewart, and the same when you followed Jim Phelps. Don't blame me when everyone you blindly follow turns out to be just another nutcase!

Just wait till the debate gets going between me and Gabe Stutter, he's probably yet another tarbaby too.

Bring him on, Wayne. I challenge Gabriel Stutter to public debate. Don't hide your new bhodissatva in chains, turn him loose and when the dust settles, see who survived!

[halva]

1. Acknowledge, Raynolds, that you gamble on being regarded as so irrelevant and insignificant that a person like Haubrick could not be bothered trying to challenge the slanderous assertions you make about him on a public notice board.

2. Acknowledge also that the reason you are incapable of being friendly to Gaiacomm is that he reminds you so much of yourself.

Acknowledgement, please.

I have spoken to Haubrick on the telephone.

[halva]

I challenge Gabriel Stutter to public debate. Don't hide your new bhodissatva in chains, turn him loose and when the dust settles, see who survived!

Chemtrail liars in Europe are not going to need your assistance, Raynolds, and will not welcome it.

You are guilty of hubris. Watch your back.

[gaiacomm]

JR and company will soon have other fun. The freedom of speech ethics will soon be tested in relation to the internet and forums.

The Lance vs Ben-Hur game is over. That point has already been proven. Jr and company are finished on that subject. That subject alone should prove to readers how easy it is to sway opinion and make statements and claims without hard facts and evidence to prove either way.

Its too easy to fall into a trap of truth if one wishes to know. JR relied on trust that he built on and then decided as most people do to betray it and use it for other reasons. Ben-Hur came out of the gate with his opinions and facts and did not attempt to win favor with anyone. He stands on his on two feet.

The same goes with chemtrails. JR and company are using the lack of hard evidence to disprove without investigation into the statements. What they don't realize is that the hard eveidence they seek is not on the internet. There are traces to find but it is like a bundle of string.
Until someone on the inside comes forward this chemtrail will always be elusive and vaque. It will only be a commercial venture for those who seek revenue.

JR and company just found another cause to pound on. But in fact they wish to know as well.

The first sign to them that something was wrong with the environment should have been years ago when we started to buy bottled water. Look at the price now? They should look into that cause.

As stated before I will assist in the unmasking of the chemtrail problem but it will take time and it will have to be presented to the media and not the internet first.

[halva]

Quoting from CTC:

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002134.html

"I think Jay lost all respect years ago and no one believes him anyway. He has no credibility."

Amen.

[gaiacomm]

Wayne about this article; I never said that I invented HAARP. I said that I made modifications to it over and above Mr. Eastlunds work. As for the interview it still stands and I have not backed out.

Maybe the powers that be do not wish to have me intereviewed. I do understand why. As for my life well I am well protected and will not go away. I know where the rabbit lives!
Let the Chemtrail people know what I just wrote if you like!

This message came from the Chem-Trail Tracking USA Web site, dated July 9, 2004:
Hi [name withheld],

Constance's accident occured at a time when she was heating things up in
Arizona. She had secured numerous radio interviews and had just finished a three
part Chemtrail documentary for a Phoenix TV station. Her plans for the fall
included a videotaped interview with a "whistleblower" Judah Ben Hur in
Florida. He claimed to be the inventor of HAARP, which strangely enough seems to be
something that many of the "whistleblowers" want to take credit for.

She had spoken with Ben Hur a couple of times on the phone and had contacted
me to be the camera person to accompany her for the interview. I think that
she just wanted company because I certainly don't have any expertise in that
field. lol! Within a week of that phone conversation with me, Ben Hur backed
down on exposing anymore to the Chemtrails groups, received his funding for
HAARP II, and Constance had her "accident". I heard that he recently resurfaced in
some groups but I haven't checked into the details of what he is saying now.

I was speaking with a close friend of hers and mine a couple of weeks ago
when she came up to visit me. Olivia had been with Constance in the hospital the
first two weeks that she was in ICU. She couldn't talk but could express
answers to yes and no questions. Olivia said that Constance knew that she would
not leave the hospital alive even though the injuries were not life
threatening. She never got to the place that she could tell what happened that night
but Olivia said that it was clear that it was no "accident".

I also count the death of the scientist Bill Mallow at SW Research in San
Antonio a Chemtrails related "take-out" as he was doing tests for Constance and I
when he got two types of virulent cancer that killed him within 11 weeks of
our delivering the samples of web fiber to him. Whitley Strieber backed down
quickly from his offer to help us get testing done after Bill died. None of
the scientists that he knew wanted anything to do with the stuff.

Love and Blessings,
[name withheld]
GS5555
Texas Wind

[jayreynolds]

This message came from the Chem-Trail Tracking USA Web site, dated July 9, 2004:
Hi [name withheld],


No such message exists at the Chemtrailtrackingusa message board website. It is yet another hoax. Likely it was a lame attempt to do some fearmongering among the "chemtrail" cult membership, which is in serious trouble.

The recent splitting up of factions at Chemtrailtrackingusa, Carnicom's video being ignored, and the rise of crass "chemtrail" commercialism has taken it's toll.

Evolution of the membership by natural selection has eliminated all ordinary people from the ranks.

The dregs that remain are dimwits like halva and Dona Terry, insane clown trolls like giacon and Billder, sickos down on their luck like Carnicom, Sore Throat and Deborah, cash hog cronies like Don Croft and cynical manipulators like William Thomas and Chem11.

The mountain of lies that has built up over the past five years by chemmies has made debunking the hoax extremely easy, as evidenced in this thread. The great majority of chemmie morons simply parrot the same old lies or ignorant error ridden claims that were debunked long ago, what fools! These days all I have to do is return to the archives and grab the old debunking material in place years ago. Often I've used it so often it is memorized.

Like I said, you guys have to get some new material.

Wayne, I've been following several German language public message boards discussing gabe stutter. While yerpeen chemmies are no different from their western counterparts, rational unemotional scientific thought over there has made it tough going for the cult. As yerpeens start to tap into on the vast trove of in-stock debunking available here, gabriel and his ilk are destined to be in big trouble. The bottom line is they are getting in far too late to overcome the inertia which has already dragged "chemtrails" into the muck.

Gabriel Stutter, along with the rest of you chemmie morons, should have intensively studied my website long ago to learn the truth and avoid falling into the silly dungheaps your people seem unable to stay out of.

Still, tell him he better take me up on my offer for debate now, while he has a chance to correct his most obvious errors, or resign himself to keep running until the day he must deal with me when there will be no chance left, and no hope of recovery afterwards.

That's the bottom line, for I am coming after him now.

[jayreynolds]

Here's an example of a German chemmie who simply copied the same old William Thomas misinformation[Note: He actually got it from 'Gabriel Stetter', who got it from William Thomas, now the whole EU is flooded with the same easily debunked errors!]
Original text in German:
http://www.das-gibts-doch-nicht.de/seite2780.php

translated text in English:
http://world.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.das-gibts-doch-nicht.de%2Fseite2780.php&lp=de_en

"Normal vapor trails form only behind the airplane. They extend usually only few kilometers behind the airplane and dissolve within 1-3 minutes in nothing! ' normal ones ' vapor trails form only at temperatures under -76 degrees and air humidity of 70 per cent or more. Under rare weather conditions they keep themselves hardly longer the than 20 minutes"

Wayne, you try to play that song to a pilot, meteorologist, climate scientist, or anyone else willing to look up the truth, and guess who's competely lost credibility?

Your people had better get their act together and rid yourselves of this sort of disinformation.

It's getting tiresome wading through your bullcrap up to my neck from sea to shining sea!

[jayreynolds]

Another person asks for chemmie proof.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/message/113662
(see revealing responses at bottom of above link)
Bottom line:
No proof given, the person asking got banned, and everyone else was encouraged to "do the research yourself", and directed to read Brian Holmes and William Thomas who keep repeating the same incorrect contrail formation temperature.

Mice caught in a maze!
Chemmie stupidity!
GET SMART!
GET OVER IT!
GET OUT OF THE "CHEMTRAILS" HOAX!

[foot_soldier]

TABOO**TABOO**TABOO**TABOO**TABOO**TABOO**TABOO

DO NOT MENTION AVIATION IMPACT ON GLOBAL ATMOSPHERE ! ! ! ! !

July 9, 2004

Jet exhaust may be adding to global warming

HAMPTON, Va. - (KRT) - Next time you're on a plane, think of this: The plane's exhaust might be adding just enough moisture to the atmosphere to create a cloud and keep it floating.

That cloud could stretch 1,000 miles long and 37 miles wide, depending on the weather and your flight distance.

Add that cloud to all the other clouds produced by airplane exhaust, and it creates a blanket effect - trapping heat that's radiating from the Earth. The end result: warmer temperatures on the surface.

In other words, your flight might be contributing to the greenhouse effect.

A recently published study by researchers at NASA Langley in Hampton, Va., concludes that clouds from airplane exhaust, or contrails, contributed to a .5-degree per decade warming trend in the United States between 1975 and 1994.

That might seem like a small amount, but those half-degrees add up over time. Environmentalists fear that global warming will bring about radical changes to weather patterns and agricultural production. Some worry that the polar icecaps could melt and cause the sea level to rise. Scientists vary on their level of alarm over global warming, but most agree that it's worth a serious look.

Greenhouse gasses like carbon dioxide are still the main focus of global warning research. But scientists had suspected that contrails might contribute to the greenhouse effect as well. The NASA study is the first time someone used real weather observations to document temperature change relating to contrails, said Patrick Minnis, a senior research scientist at Langley.

Minnis studied contrails and the feathery white cirrus clouds that develop from contrails. He also studied surface temperatures across the globe to see what, if any effect the clouds were having down below.

To understand his conclusions, you need to know a few facts about contrails, cirrus clouds and global radiation.

Not every flight creates a contrail. The conditions have to be just right, with temperatures of minus 40 degrees or colder at typical flying altitudes of 25,000 to 43,000 feet.

Clear skies cannot hold enough moisture to support a cloud. If a plane comes along, its exhaust can add just enough moisture to the air to condense and freeze, forming a sustainable cloud.

"You're basically turning `on' a cloud that wouldn't form on its own," Minnis said.

Minnis and researchers at a Hampton, Va., based firm called Analytical Services and Materials used data from global weather stations, the National Weather Service and the National Centers for Environmental Prediction, which collect detailed weather information necessary for a close look at cloud conditions.

"We analyzed data that had been painstakingly collected and analyzed by other people," said Kirk Ayers, a researcher with Analytical Services and Materials.

"And then painstakingly analyzed again by us," Minnis added.

The moisture levels over the United States did not increase during the study period. But the amount of cirrus clouds increased at a rate of about 1 percent per decade.

"Cirrus clouds can have a net warming or net cooling effect on the Earth, depending on how thick they are," Minnis said. "Cirrus clouds from contrails tend to be thin, and the effect of thin clouds tends to be warming."

After using satellite data to double-check his information, Minnis concluded that air traffic was adding enough contrails to the atmosphere to increase the coverage of cirrus clouds.

He also looked at surface temperatures using a database with 25 years of global weather records and found that temperatures increased in the United States along with the cirrus clouds.

Out of concerns about the environment, the airline industry in Europe is investing in research to reduce contrails, Minnis said.

There are two main options:

_Change the propulsion system of planes so water vapor isn't injected into the atmosphere.

_Avoid flying in humid areas of the upper atmosphere.

"Basically that would mean flying lower," he said. "But the trade-off there is that the air is thicker, so the plane is less efficient and you burn more fuel."

Bruce Wielicki, a NASA Langley scientist who was one of the first researchers to factor clouds into climate models in the 1970s, said Minnis' study points out how contrails, along with greenhouse gasses like carbon dioxide, are factors when studying how humans affect the climate.

"It's part of the story," Wielicki said. "It's not the main driver."

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/nation/9115985.htm

[halva]

[QUOTE=halva]Acknowledge, Raynolds, that you gamble on being regarded as so irrelevant and insignificant that a person like Haubrick could not be bothered trying to challenge the slanderous assertions you make about him on a public notice board.
/QUOTE]

By the way, if your 'interventions' in the European debate follow the 'chemtrails' vs 'contrails' line pattern you are not going to get far.

The more you involve yourself in Europe, the more you will get out of your depth, Raynolds. The game is not going to be played in ways that you can monitor or that you are familiar with.

[gaiacomm]

Now that JR and company are aware of who I am and what I am capable of doing the gameboard rules have changed a bit. I will be the moderator for now.

Hint: Find a junior scientist at Mosanto that works on plastic componds he will give you a classified document that you will need. His employ is 3 years to the date. Do your homework to find him. He is waiting for contact.

All of the rest of this data is public knowledge and can be cut and pasted all day...its now time to get serious and start making others nervous!

[halva]

Just go ahead and do what you are capable of doing, Gaiacomm.

[jayreynolds]

Not every flight creates a contrail. The conditions have to be just right, with temperatures of minus 40 degrees or colder at typical flying altitudes of 25,000 to 43,000 feet.
[/url]

Hey, Wayne, Deborah, it's impossible at this late a date, to correct the misinformation your people have put out regarding the temperature that ordinary contrails form. For years now, you've been claiming that contrails just don't persist more than a few minutes.

Only now, as your hoax fails, are you starting to come around to complaining about contrails.

Sorry, a bell once rung can't be 'unrung'.
The damage is done, you have no credibility because you fail to correct your errors.

So, now they know more in Duluth than the average chemmie about contrails.

This is one of the reasons why chemmies fear question #9, and won't touch it with a ten-foot-pole.

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

WHY ARE YOU CHEMMIES SO AFRAID OF THESE SIMPLE QUESTIONS?
.

[jayreynolds]

Just go ahead and do what you are capable of doing, Gaiacomm.

THE WONDERFUL TAR BABY STORY
"Didn't the fox never catch the rabbit, Uncle Remus?" asked the little boy the next evening.

"He come mighty nigh it, honey, sho's you born--Brer Fox did. One day atter Brer Rabbit fool 'im wid dat calamus root, Brer Fox went ter wuk en got 'im some tar, en mix it wid some turkentime, en fix up a contrapshun w'at he call a Tar-Baby, en he tuck dish yer Tar-Baby en he sot 'er in de big road, en den he lay off in de bushes fer to see what de news wuz gwine ter be."

[halva]

Yes, the person posing as "Dr. Judah Ben-hur" is Lance Haubrick.
Of that, I am certain.


Yes, the person posing as "Dr. Judah Ben-hur" is Lance Haubrick.
Of that, I am certain.


Yes, the person posing as "Dr. Judah Ben-hur" is Lance Haubrick.
Of that, I am certain.


Yes, the person posing as "Dr. Judah Ben-hur" is Lance Haubrick.
Of that, I am certain.


Yes, the person posing as "Dr. Judah Ben-hur" is Lance Haubrick.
Of that, I am certain.


Yes, the person posing as "Dr. Judah Ben-hur" is Lance Haubrick.
Of that, I am certain.


Yes, the person posing as "Dr. Judah Ben-hur" is Lance Haubrick.
Of that, I am certain.


Yes, the person posing as "Dr. Judah Ben-hur" is Lance Haubrick.
Of that, I am certain.

Just reaffirm, please.

[halva]

Look, dumbass, you failed to interest anyone at Tyndall and have now been exposed there for what you were trying to do.

Reaffirm please.

[halva]

1. Why do you play the self-appointed intermediary between "chemmies" and environmental scientists, given your claim that scientists are anyway perfectly capable of protecting themselves from the contagion of what you identify as "chemmie" viewpoints?

2. How can you say that you know geoengineering projects are not being pursued in the skies for climate mitigation purposes when not even the British government's scientific advisor will say that he knows that. Do you have access to better information than he does?

3. If there is a genuine need for geoengineering techniques to be applied to mitigate the symptoms of climate change, as many scientists assert, should it not be possible for this mitigation to be carried out without those involved in it having to fear accusations that they are behaving illegally?

Answer, please.

[halva]

THE WONDERFUL TAR BABY STORY
"Didn't the fox never catch the rabbit, Uncle Remus?" asked the little boy the next evening.

"He come mighty nigh it, honey, sho's you born--Brer Fox did. One day atter Brer Rabbit fool 'im wid dat calamus root, Brer Fox went ter wuk en got 'im some tar, en mix it wid some turkentime, en fix up a contrapshun w'at he call a Tar-Baby, en he tuck dish yer Tar-Baby en he sot 'er in de big road, en den he lay off in de bushes fer to see what de news wuz gwine ter be."

These are the cheap tricks of a person with NOTHING TO SAY.

[gaiacomm]

JR and company will leave me alone because of reasons they yet are aware of. As stated before they now know who I am. It is quite embarassing for them but because I am such a good sport I let it slide.

I once agian suggest you follow my lead hint! It just requires a little homework!

[jayreynolds]

Wayne, I have answered your questions multiple times. You must have reading comprehension problems.
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=57531&postcount=2071
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=58062&postcount=2080
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=58207&postcount=2083


giacon is Lance Hubrick. He is a fraud and a liar.
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=73733&postcount=2224

The head of research at Tyndall wrote me and said:
"As you know, Wayne Hall has been in contact with the Tyndall Centre, and we are aware of the chemtrail debate on the web. Aircraft contribute to warming, not cooling; contrails aren’t easily engineerable; and there is no evidence - despite decades of systematic aerosol and atmospheric analysis - that we are doing anything other than perfectly ‘normal’ pollution, which is of course a serious enough societal problem to address."

So, Wayne, this puts to bed your elaborate delusion that you have made any progress whatsoever trying to insinuate yourself into science based discussions.

If you ever did get somebody with credibility to buy into your hoax, you'd be shouting it to high heavens. You haven't, and so you run away and hide from my questions which reveal you to be repeating the same tired old misinformation that got you kicked out of Tyndall Centre in the first place.

Face it, dude, you are working yourself deeper into the mire each time you open your mouth, and asking me to forever repeatedly show your stupidity only reinforces the accuracy of my position, and the frailty of your own.

NOW ANSWER THE QUESTIONS YOU CONTINUE TO RUN FROM, WAYNE!

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Wayne, here's a
WOO-WOO WARNING!

Over at chem11's you are starting to attract hypochondriac nutcases. That they are allowed t continue their delusional parasitosis hoax within the context of your cult is a sign of how desperate your people are for membership. This Victoria Shover is a real doozie. For several years now she has shopped around at various support groups presenting with one child, then three, having just about every symptom and test known to man.
Victoria at megasprayer:
http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Discussion&num=1078422227&start=45
Victoria two years ago claimed scleroderma:
http://www.sclerodermasupport.com/support/stories/category/diffuse/victorias.htm
Victoria three years ago claimed hepatitis and two operations:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:vN3VwVyAKWIJ:health.groups.yahoo.co m/group/GIWorld-Hepatitis/message/5287+%22victoria+shover%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

One big problem. "Vicky " seems to be a man named Kurt:

Name: Shover, Kurt
Business Name: Don't have one yet
Location: Iowa
Email: vickisho@zeus.ia.net
Home/Member Page:
Objectives: Finding inexpensive decorative finials for refurbished lamps. Networking with other crafters about beginning/promoting my craft.
http://artsandcrafts.about.com/library/network/abc/blnetwork_s.htm

[halva]

Hey Jay, you know something. There's a woman next door who's our on her balcony watering her potplants at the moment. I think her name is Sophia. She's about 34 years old and she's got a cute little dog. She often takes him walking in the afternoons.

Would you like me to send you a photograph of her some time? I think she got the flu once or twice last winter. Nothing suspicious about that of course. A lot of people get the flu every winter.
Sometimes her sister visits her on weekends, bringing her two children with her. They take the kids to the park nearby here. The young boy, who's about ten, likes playing football.

There's a telephone directory sitting looking at me from my bookshelves on the other side of my office. If you like I could look up some of the names there and with a bit of effort I'm sure I could give you at least as much information about some of the people in it as I have given you about Sophia.

What do you say? Will you be in it? Have you ever thought of how much important data we ignore every single waking moment of our lives?

[halva]

The head of research at Tyndall wrote me and said:
"As you know, Wayne Hall has been in contact with the Tyndall Centre, and we are aware of the chemtrail debate on the web. Aircraft contribute to warming, not cooling; contrails aren’t easily engineerable; and there is no evidence - despite decades of systematic aerosol and atmospheric analysis - that we are doing anything other than perfectly ‘normal’ pollution, which is of course a serious enough societal problem to address."

TYNDALL: Space Control: Essential Capabilities
Active Climate Stabilization: Presently-Feasible Approaches to Both
Types of Climate Change
http://www.tyndall.ac.uk/events/past_events/active.pdf

These matters are under discussion in the closed forum. It seems they may have to make up their mind what they want to say on issues like this.

[halva]

Raynolds, who do you claim to have been in touch with at Tyndall?

[gaiacomm]

Wayne: why do you play games with this person JR and company? I think you should ignore him and continue on your way. He has no more creditability here anymore and has been caught in his own hoax of Haubrick and the Doc. I called his home and spoke to his wife Karen some time ago and found out some interesting facts. She is quit pleasent and kind and loves JR much. She of course remains neutral on his opinions. But I have spoken with her quit a few times since. JR is now aware of this now. I felt it time to clue him in on what really goes on when he is away. You see JR I can get real close and comfortable!

[halva]

Gaiacomm, if you can find a way of making Raynolds stop claiming that you are Lance Haubrick, that will be a good start.

After that it will be time to help demand of Tyndall, or the individual with whom Raynolds communicated (if he is not lying on this front also ) why they feel they have to give explanations about anything to a Bush supporter, climate-change sceptic and liar.

You say that you are capable of many things. Show that you are capable of making Raynolds stop saying that you are Lance Haubrick. If you have the ear of Raynolds' wife, use it.

[foot_soldier]

Scientists complain about Bush policies

By JOAN LOWY
Scripps Howard News Service
12-JUL-04

The Bush administration is using a variety of methods to suppress scientific research, information and viewpoints that are unfavorable to industry, speakers at a national conference on scientific integrity said Monday.

Scientific research and regulation related to the environment and public health is also being undermined by an aggressive effort by corporate interests to challenge scientific information, even when that information represents a clear consensus of scientific opinion, scientists and public health advocates said.

"Within the scientific community the effects of the administration's (actions) have been chilling and demoralizing," Rep. Brian Baird, D-Wash., a clinical psychologist and former university professor, told the conference, sponsored by the Center for Science in the Public Interest, a public advocacy group.

"Researchers are practicing self-censorship or avoiding government careers entirely," Baird said. "Lifetimes of study are being abandoned, international collaborations are being curtailed, studies and data that could lead to valuable life-saving information are being neglected or blocked ... and some of the best scientific talent in the world is starting to leave our country."

Eric Schaeffer, who resigned two years ago as chief of enforcement at the Environmental Protection Agency in protest over the administration's air pollution policies, said the agency recently decided to exempt two-thirds of plywood manufacturing plants from an air pollution regulation after determining that the health benefits would be outweighed by the costs of complying with the regulation.

The EPA based its decision in part on a new industry study that concludes the risk of contracting nose and throat cancer from formaldehyde, widely used by the industry, is much less than the government had previously assumed, Schaeffer said.

At the same time, the EPA ignored two new studies by the National Cancer Institute and the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health showing formaldehyde exposure greatly increases the risk of leukemia, Schaeffer said.

"EPA has made some vague promises to study the leukemia studies," Schaeffer said.

White House science adviser John Marburger said administration critics are making "sweeping generalizations" based on "disjointed facts."

"This administration values and supports science, both as a vital necessity for national security and economic strength and as an indispensable source of guidance for national policy," Marburger said in a statement.

Some other recent controversies cited at the conference:

_ A scientist with 17 years at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service filed a complaint with the Interior Department alleging the agency approved eight real estate development projects despite scientific information indicating the projects would harm the endangered Florida panther by taking away essential habitat.

Scientist Andrew Eller Jr. said the agency ignored an independent review released earlier this year by a team of scientists on the best criteria for use in determining panther habitat.

_ After pumping tens of millions of dollars into education programs that promote complete sexual abstinence until marriage, the administration has dropped all attempts to scientifically assess whether abstinence education has any effect on out-of-wedlock births.

Similarly, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention discontinued scientific research to identify comprehensive sex education programs that reduce or delay teen sexual activity and teen pregnancy.

_ The administration has demanded that the World Health Organization, which is affiliated with the United Nations, first clear all U.S. government scientists with the Department of Health and Human Services before they can be appointed as delegates to the organization's meetings or serve on its panels.

http://www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cfm?action=detail&pk=SCIENCE-07-12-04

[gaiacomm]

Gaiacomm, if you can find a way of making Raynolds stop claiming that you are Lance Haubrick, that will be a good start.

After that it will be time to help demand of Tyndall, or the individual with whom Raynolds communicated (if he is not lying on this front also ) why they feel they have to give explanations about anything to a Bush supporter, climate-change sceptic and liar.

You say that you are capable of many things. Show that you are capable of making Raynolds stop saying that you are Lance Haubrick. If you have the ear of Raynolds' wife, use it.

The only way that anyone can stop JR by making claims would result in a felony conviction and a life sentence. The internet is a freeway where people can drop trash on the side roads.

The best thing for you is to leave him alone and just don't give him your time. But its hard when you don't know how to stop. JR has you where he wants you and until you get away he will control you like a "bitch in jail".

We have choices and you chose yours so deal with it or throw it back out it back out the window.

Why not help "footsoldier" out he seems to be wishing to know. JR is a lone wolf, just keep him on the mountain until the ice age comes and nature will deal with him.

As for his wife Karen she is a nice person and pleasent to speak with and email to. She does not interfere with JR's work. But she understands. Maybe oneday we will meet for tea!

Jr won't mind! Will you JR?

[halva]

Thank you for your helpful reply.

[jayreynolds]

Raynolds, who do you claim to have been in touch with at Tyndall?

Wayne, discussion of this matter is closed to you.
The quote is accurate and came dirctly from a PhD scientist at Tyndall Centre who wishes to remain anonymous within the context of our discussion here.

The person I am in contact with at Tyndall analyzes people such as yourself and has been aware of the chemtrail hoax for some time. A person at that level of scientific and indeed psychological knowledge can spot a chemmie moron coming from miles away. Even though they may wish to be inclusive in their decisionmaking, they must consider who helps and who hinders their aims and goals.

Needless to say your kind are considered a blot on the face of the climate change debate.
Your people appear to these folks to be intentionally trying to trivialize their issue and associate them with wack-o conspiracy theories, which is the one thing they desperately don't need.

I believe they would just as soon you went away, and never came back, and took Smeagol with you. They are polite, but I understand eyes roll whenever they talk about "chemtrail" people.

Did they really laugh out loud when you told them about how contrails require a minimum temperature of minus 76 degrees(-76F) to even form, as your buddies Brian Holmes, William Thomas, and Gabriel Stutter keep saying?
ROTFLMAO!!

How are you going to ever expect credibility when you can't even get the first thing correct, man? My god, you people flop down in failure the first frigging time you open your mouths!

[jayreynolds]

After that it will be time to help demand of Tyndall, or the individual with whom Raynolds communicated (if he is not lying on this front also ) why they feel they have to give explanations about anything to a Bush supporter, climate-change sceptic and liar.

Wayne, it's very silly of you to head out to insinuate yourself into a community of scientists under false pretenses, start bragging about it to me, and then expect me to be silenced.
The people at Tyndall have been very kind to me, showing me the sorts of questions you have asked and telling me how they were able to respond. I'm sure they have been similarly polite to you(publicly anyways).

As scientists, they deal in facts, not supposition, rumor, hearsay, and what-ifs. When you approached them with wacked out crap, and didn't even have the most basic facts straight about ordinary contrails, what did you expect them to do?

As scientists, they were able to read my website and find that all was well, facts were carefully laid out in linear, timeline, and analogue fashions that they were familiar with, all accurate, all documented, all correct. They saw that my homework was done, and done well.

You, on the other hand, presented with preposterous half-baked claims, facts so screwed up you can never get thm straight, and full of the most fallacious thought processes imaginable.
They knew in an instant exactly who and what you were.

"Here comes another chemmie moron, how long will it take to get rid of this one...?"

[halva]

Answer the question Raynolds. Otherwise I will assume that you are lying as you are lying about Haubrick. Who do you claim to have been in contact with at Tyndall?

You are on record as saying that you are not at all interested in what they are doing at Tyndall, that you don't believe in anthropogenic climate change, and that you think geoengineering is a load of crap. I have in my possession written statements from the Tyndall Centre stating that it is not their policy to enter into one-to-one discussions with people such as yourself.

Your claim about aerosol spraying inevitably leading to warming (which you attribute to someone at Tyndall - and it is true they are saying things like that) is contradicted by the paper from the Lawrence Livermore national laboratory I cited above and which is in the proceedings of Tyndall's January conference. What is your comment on the claims in that paper?

[jayreynolds]

Answer the question Raynolds. Otherwise I will assume that you are lying as you are lying about Haubrick. Who do you claim to have been in contact with at Tyndall?

You are on record as saying that you are not at all interested in what they are doing at Tyndall, that you don't believe in anthropogenic climate change, and that you think geoengineering is a load of crap. I have in my possession written statements from the Tyndall Centre stating that it is not their policy to enter into one-to-one discussions with people such as yourself.

Your claim about aerosol spraying inevitably leading to warming (which you attribute to someone at Tyndall - and it is true they are saying things like that) is contradicted by the paper from the Lawrence Livermore national laboratory I cited above and which is in the proceedings of Tyndall's January conference. What is your comment on the claims in that paper?

Wayne, sorry, not lying about Giacon being Lance Haubrick. Everybody knows he is a fraud and a liar.
Why else did he get banned from all the chemtrail forums?

They knew all this a year ago and gave him the boot. For some perverse reason you seem to be one of very few chemmies willing to take liars and frauds under your wing as a matter of policy!

As far as whom I am in contact with at Tyndall. Well, when you make full disclosure of what they have told you, including full text and names, then I will too.

"You are on record as saying:
- that you are not at all interested in what they are doing at Tyndall
Wayne, my interest with them is that I perceived that you intended to try and subvert them into supporting your cult's goals, by using their research as a 'front' to gain credibility which you have lost by your inability to get science straight. I began discussions with them so that they might be informed of your true intentions, that was all.

-"that you don't believe in anthropogenic climate change"
Correct, Wayne. Science doesn't hold 'belief'. The scientists at Tyndall are well aware that the hypothesis of anthropogenic 'global warming' is not a subject for 'belief'. They know that the atmosphere has just now returned to the temperature it attained in the middle ages BEFORE mankind increased CO2.

Now what do you suppose made it so warm back then, all those ox-carts running up and down the road???? All those men in their sailboats???? The flames of the Spanish Inquisition???

This was all in the pentagon report, BTW, which you claimed to have studied before starting this debate. The people at Tyndall know all this. Everybody knows. Everybody except Wayne Hall, all he needs is'belief". Hmmmmph!

"and that you think geoengineering is a load of crap."

Not so fast, son. I never said that. I see geo-sequestration as being possible, but don't see it as being economically feasible without nuclear power in the mix. I already participate in bio-sequestration, as a tree farm owner.

What I did say, and if you ask them, the scientists at Tyndall will agree, is that the ideas about doing this out the back of airplanes is impractical, "pie-in-the-sky". But don't take my word for it, show them what one of the world's best cloud scientists, the esteemed Dr. Patrick Minnis said, his objections to THAT particular speculation will hold up!
I once again challenge you to have them respond to his criticisms!
You have failed to report their statements.
http://www.rense.com/general9/naschem.htm
"I would also rule out the climate modifcation aspect. The effort would be too expensive, require too much manpower and equipment and probably would not work. Large, climate-changing programs have been hypothesized and written about for years, but inevitably they are pie in the sky. Maybe pies in the sky would change climate. Man's efforts to affect the weather are typically unplanned, like air pollution, city heat islands, contrails, etc. Weather modification is something that people have been trying for years with mixed success. It will continue to go on. But at the scale that would be associated with climate change? I doubt very seriously." "The best way to get a scattering effect that wil do anything is to load up the stratosphere with submicron sized particles. To accomplish anything noticeable in terms of a climate effect you would have to loft material equivalent in weight/particle number to that injected by a volcano of the magnitude of El Chichon or greater, more like Pinatubo in size.
That would mean the planes would have to deposit 20,000,000 tons of material in the stratosphere every 2 or 3 years. To keep it up there, it would be best to place it in the Tropics meaning they would have to reach altitudes of 55,000 to 60,000 ft. To match the Pinatubo output, this means for the miltary's C-141B Starlifter with a capacity of 34.3 tons, it would require only 20,000,000 / 34.3 = 582,030 flights in the course of say, 3 years or roughly 195,000 flights each year or 531/day just to go up and spray a bunch of junk into the stratosphere. How much fuel do you think that would require? If the military had 747s, then the number would drop by a third. But here is the problem. The volcanos put the material at altitudes above 60,000 ft. There are very few planes that can reach those altitudes and cargo planes are not included in that bunch. Most of them fly below 45,000 ft.They could only reach the stratosphere in polar regions and over the US during the winter. "

-"I have in my possession written statements from the Tyndall Centre stating that it is not their policy to enter into one-to-one discussions with people such as yourself."

Wayne, whatever gave you the idea that they wouldn't welcome being informed about your history of prevarication, your intention to piggy-back on their credibility, and the paucity of your cult's scientiifc positions? I was gratified to learn that they already knew about your cult. Word spreads fast among the scientiifc community. I understand that when they get finished making their staid presentations and eating their dried out chicken dinners at these conferences like the Ozone Symposium at KOS, they are like anyone else. They kick back with coffee and tell jokes about the chemmie nutcases, their bellies roll wih laughter at your foibles and ignorance,
and they then deplore your silly cult's pitiful efforts to bring them into the fold.

"Your claim about aerosol spraying inevitably leading to warming (which you attribute to someone at Tyndall - and it is true they are saying things like that) is contradicted by the paper from the Lawrence Livermore national laboratory I cited above and which is in the proceedings of Tyndall's January conference. What is your comment on the claims in that paper?"

Yes, of course they say things like that. Only yesterday your friend 'footsoldier'(Deborah)
was regaling us with the exact same data that so far shows that jets warm the sky!.
WAYNE YOU SIMPLY CAN"T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS, EITHER JETS WARM THE AIR OR THEY COOL IT, WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE DATA THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, AND WHERE IS YOUR RESEARCH THAT CONTRADICTS DR. MINNIS? ALL YOUR PEOPLE STILL SAY CONTRAILS CAN'T FORM ABOVE -76 degrees F!!!!!WHAT CREDIBILITY IS THERE WHEN YOU CAN'T GET THE BASIC FACTS STRAIGHT???

As far as my comments go, I agree with Dr. Patrick Minnis, that the airplane based geoengineering scheme is "pie-in-the-sky", and that the data so far shows that jets warm the sky. He has an impressive list of publications second to none.
http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/pages/minnis_pubs.html

Let's see what Schellnhuber says about those objections, and see his qualifications compared to Dr. Minnis'!

And ask him straight out what maximum temperature contrails can form at, then admit that you and your cult are guilty of woefully misinforming the public.This matter isn't going away, I am unanimous in that!

[halva]

Wayne, sorry, not lying about Giacon being Lance Haubrick. Everybody knows he is a fraud and a liar.
Why else did he get banned from all the chemtrail forums?

He did not get banned for being Lance Haubrick. I have spoken to Lance Haubrick, and he is not the person who posts here under the name of Gaiacomm.



As far as whom I am in contact with at Tyndall. Well, when you make full disclosure of what they have told you, including full text and names, then I will too.

I won't take you up on that.



This was all in the pentagon report, BTW,


Congratulations for getting the name right.



What I did say, and if you ask them, the scientists at Tyndall will agree, is that the ideas about doing this out the back of airplanes is impractical, "pie-in-the-sky". But don't take my word for it, show them what one of the world's best cloud scientists, the esteemed Dr. Patrick Minnis said, his objections to THAT particular speculation will hold up!


Lawrence Livermore have been plugging their scheme for doing things out of the back of airplanes for all they are worth. You still remain silent on that, yet it is all that is needed to provide the beginnings of an explanation for what thousands of people are seeing in the sky. Something which you cannot do and do not try to do.

I have analysed how you are attempting to play 'chemmies' and climate change scientists against each other, and this latest diatribe of yours is simply more evidence of what I have said.

Meanwhile there are other developments occurring that you apparently have not found out about, and that is something I am pleased to have achieved.

[halva]

The dialogue with the Tyndall Centre is not conducted on this forum and does not include Jay Reynolds.

[gaiacomm]

Well JR thank you for the statement. I was banned from Chemtrail Central because I would not fully cooperate with the questions asked. And so because of that I was considered a fraud. When children do not get their way they throw a fit. JR you had children and you know.

There is information that should not be placed in the hands of the public. JR you are smart enough to know that.

You also know that I am very missunderstood and for good reason. Most scientists are more public with their research and claims and are not political in public. Well I am one of those that decided to break away and go public. My work has always been kept quiet from prying eyes.

I would suggest you apologize to Lance for your honest mistake. As for me I already understand why you do what you do!

[halva]

What makes you say that it was an honest mistake on Raynolds' part to claim that you are Haubrick, Gaiacomm?

And what is it that leads you to say that you 'understand' why he tries to turn 'chemmies' against climate scientists, and vice versa?

[gaiacomm]

What makes you say that it was an honest mistake on Raynolds' part to claim that you are Haubrick, Gaiacomm?

And what is it that leads you to say that you 'understand' why he tries to turn 'chemmies' against climate scientists, and vice versa?

Because JR could only depend on what he read on the internet and drew is on conclusions.

And to your second question I just do know!

[gaiacomm]

The United States of America is afraid of China!

The USA is afraid of the power that China has with its Nuclear weapons, Bio weapons its armies and many other defense systems. The USA clearly understands that it cannot and will not push China into a conflict. The battles will be small fought on foreign soils where those countries have no control over their outcome. The UN is a puppet for the USA and NATO is a weak link in the chain.

China will lure the west to its vast economic buying power to drain the resources of others. It will wait like a dragon for the others to stretch their resources and their wars to the brink of extinction then China will make its move. It will not need the UN or Nato to make its choice. China will become the most powerful nation on earth in a very short time by waiting and watching and relying on the greed and egos and vanities of others to get them off balance.

The USA will never admit to defeat with China but Bush knows never to cross that line and never let the rest of the world know that it is afraid of China.

China is waiting to take Japan, Taiwan, and Korea from the USA and will. The Japanese people will become enslaved or suffer the fate of death.

Bush will be re-elected this year to continue 4 more years of rule. He knows he is an idiot but cannot deal with it right now. I wonder if one of Bush’s daughters were held captive in Iraq would he buckle under the demands placed by the captors?

You notice that Bush does not deal with China directly!

China will wait and side with Russia to be its front then you see the power of the Dragon!

Islamic fighters are small ants compared to the mighty Dragon!

Beware of the Black Pearl!

[halva]

For those tired of the noise of this thread, there is an alternative forum, and it will be cared for and protected.

[gaiacomm]

For those tired of the noise of this thread, there is an alternative forum, and it will be cared for and protected.


This thread is finished! We have all proven are points. JR did well with his posts and so did wayne. As for Chemtrails well we should leave the answers to the readers to find on their own and not the advocates of false truths!

I will suggest to the moderators of this forum to disconnect and take offline this thread!

[jayreynolds]

Lawrence Livermore have been plugging their scheme for doing things out of the back of airplanes for all they are worth. You still remain silent on that, yet it is all that is needed to provide the beginnings of an explanation for what thousands of people are seeing in the sky. Something which you cannot do and do not try to do..

Not true, Wayne.
I went to their homepage, and no sign of it.
http://www.llnl.gov/

I searched under climate and found their climate page, no sign of it there either.
http://irccsi.llnl.gov/

On their climate page I checked under "projects", no sign there.
http://irccsi.llnl.gov/projects.html

Now, Wayne, if they were "plugging....for all they are worth", they aren't worth much.
I say it is you, working science backwards, that is trying to push the idea of geoengineering for all you're worth!

Here is how you went wrong, Wayne. First, you heard the conspiracy theory about "chemtrails".
Somebody lied to you and told you that ordinary contrails don't persist, and that those that do are "chemtrails", then you just assumed that "chemtrails" were what you saw .

Bad moves, Wayne, an assumption based on a lie is a recipe for a disaster!

You've already admitted that you are totally and willfully ignorant about the science behind how ordinary contrails form. A normal rational person would undertake to learn whether, or not, what he sees fits within what are known to be ordinary for contrails.

You, on the other hand, refused to do so, and even after being informed that you were spreading misinformation that discredited your claims, you persist in the misinformation!

Bad moves again, Wayne. By repeatedly stating misinformation, even after being informed of the fact, you reveal yourself as a willful liar, one who cares not for the truth at all, and YOU ARE BECOMING KNOWN AMONG YOUR FRIENDS AS A DISINFORMATIONALIST.!

Finally, as to your claim that I "still remain silent on that[the geoengineering paper by Caldiera]."
Wayne, this morning I composed a lengthy post on that subject, and enumerated my criticisms of it, and even challenged you to refute them.

You then called it a "diatribe", saying, "The dialogue with the Tyndall Centre is not conducted on this forum and does not include Jay Reynolds."

The facts are that there is no dialogue. They finished with you weeks ago. They think you are a fruitcake, along with the rest of the world. Admit it, wayne, because sooner or later it will clear to all your chemmie friends that you got nowhere at Tyndall.

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS, WAYNE. When you shout for me to answer your questions, and I do, you can't call that a "diatribe", then say I remain silent. the two statements are exclusive!

That is simply ridiculous, and a sign that you cannot refute what I say, because there is no refutation possible!

Once again, you are shown lacking, beaten, kicked to the gutter, and down for the count.

[jayreynolds]

I have analysed how you are attempting to play 'chemmies' and climate change scientists against each other, and this latest diatribe of yours is simply more evidence of what I have said.

Wayne, it is not I who have caused trouble for you, you can only lay blame on yourself. You have to admit, and everybody else already knows, that you have hitched yourself a ride on a ship of fools. When you repeatedly direct people towards easily debunked people like William Thomas, Brian Holmes, Gabriel Stetter, and all the rest, who do you really have to blame?

The above mentioned tyros consistently tell us that contrails can ONLY form at temperatures below 76 degrees BELOW ZERO(-76F)!!!!!! When will you admit this is a lie, and start telling the truth and stop being a DISINFORMATIONALIST??????

IT IS YOU WHO HAVE PLAYED CHEMMIES AGAINST SCIENCE OLD BEAN!!!!
PERHAPS THIS IS WHY ALL YOUR CHEMMIE FRIENDS HAVE ABANDONED YOU, EH, WAYNE????

Now, if you indeed have "continuing dialogue" with a scientist somewhere, ask them to refute this, and show us the results. Absent such a response, it will be clear for all to see that science has given you the 'cold shoulder' you deserve.

"What I did say, and if you ask them, the scientists at Tyndall will agree, is that the ideas about doing this out the back of airplanes is impractical, "pie-in-the-sky". But don't take my word for it, show them what one of the world's best cloud scientists, the esteemed Dr. Patrick Minnis said, his objections to THAT particular speculation will hold up!
I once again challenge you to have them respond to his criticisms!
You have failed to report their statements.
http://www.rense.com/general9/naschem.htm
"I would also rule out the climate modifcation aspect. The effort would be too expensive, require too much manpower and equipment and probably would not work. Large, climate-changing programs have been hypothesized and written about for years, but inevitably they are pie in the sky. Maybe pies in the sky would change climate. Man's efforts to affect the weather are typically unplanned, like air pollution, city heat islands, contrails, etc. Weather modification is something that people have been trying for years with mixed success. It will continue to go on. But at the scale that would be associated with climate change? I doubt very seriously." "The best way to get a scattering effect that wil do anything is to load up the stratosphere with submicron sized particles. To accomplish anything noticeable in terms of a climate effect you would have to loft material equivalent in weight/particle number to that injected by a volcano of the magnitude of El Chichon or greater, more like Pinatubo in size.
That would mean the planes would have to deposit 20,000,000 tons of material in the stratosphere every 2 or 3 years. To keep it up there, it would be best to place it in the Tropics meaning they would have to reach altitudes of 55,000 to 60,000 ft. To match the Pinatubo output, this means for the miltary's C-141B Starlifter with a capacity of 34.3 tons, it would require only 20,000,000 / 34.3 = 582,030 flights in the course of say, 3 years or roughly 195,000 flights each year or 531/day just to go up and spray a bunch of junk into the stratosphere. How much fuel do you think that would require? If the military had 747s, then the number would drop by a third. But here is the problem. The volcanos put the material at altitudes above 60,000 ft. There are very few planes that can reach those altitudes and cargo planes are not included in that bunch. Most of them fly below 45,000 ft.They could only reach the stratosphere in polar regions and over the US during the winter. "

[halva]

Look Raynolds I don't give a damn about you. I have explained why I am staying on this thread, and it is not to debate with you.

Keeping the Chinese from taking over this board is a more important objective than winning arguments with you.

You don't want to examine the implications of the Lawrence Livermore input into the Tyndall debate, you don't want people to start from what they are seeing with their own eyes. You admit that your motives are malicious and that you want to obstruct independent debate between chemtrail activists and climate scientists. Mainly by psychologically pressurising climate scientists and above all by never allowing anybody anywhere to relax..

So far with me you have achieved the exact opposite of your ostensible objectives. You have been instrumental in putting me in contact with influential climate scientists and making it possible for them to make their first discoveries concerning 'chemtrails'.

They are not, to the best of my knowledge, and if they have any sense, following the debate here, so that I don't have to win pseudo-scientific arguments with you in order to retain credibility with them, or with anybody else. Quite the contrary.

You want to be present in every discussion, and have every aspect of debate centring not around the realities of anthropogenic climate change and what is being proposed and also apparently done in response to it but rather around your fetish of chemtrails and contrails.

The mania with which you try to insert this into the centre of the debate is politically, sociologically and psycho-pathologically, not scientifically, motivated. It is your world, your connections and your definition of reality that is at stake.

But you are not any more part of genuine reality than Gaiacomm is. Conducting debate with you is about as meaningful an activity as arguing with him about his ideas on the Chinese.

[halva]

7-9 January 2004

TYNDALL: Space Control: Essential Capabilities
Active Climate Stabilization: Presently-Feasible Approaches to Both Types of Climate Change
http://www.tyndall.ac.uk/events/past_events/active.pdf


Powerpoint Version
www.agci.org/energyPPT/Wood_Final.ppt


I do not agree with Teller and company with their proposal to inject metal reflective objects into the air to control the global warming problem. They are not fixing the problem but adding to it.

They do not understand the dynamics of the planet and how it works and repairs itself. It is living matter and must be treated as such!

This is the relevant Lawrence Livermore reference. W.H.

[gaiacomm]

I just thought it nice to change the subject a bit since the other one is a ping pong game.

This thread should cease or at least become a catch all for any ideas on anything!

[gaiacomm]

Bush wins as President in 2004!
George W. Bush will be re-elected as president for another 4 years. He has to finish his work. In order to become a cowboy you have to get the herd home and he has not done that yet.

[jayreynolds]

Look Raynolds I don't give a damn about you. I have explained why I am staying on this thread, and it is not to debate with you. Keeping the Chinese from taking over this board is a more important objective than winning arguments with you.

Of course you give a damn, Wayne. Why else have you made over 500 posts on this board?
You are hopelessly unable to stop as long as I want you to continue, and you have no choice but to respond to me if I wish you to do so. Why else have you repeatedly called for my banning, advertise other forums where you would like readers to move to, and begged people to stop responding to me???


You don't want to examine the implications of the Lawrence Livermore input into the Tyndall debate,

Of course I do, Wayne. I have twice in the past two days challenged the claims put forth by LLNL showing how their plan of using airplanes to put reflective particles in place in the stratosphere is impractical. I have done so before as well.
I again ask that you refute my reasoning, or find a qualified scientist who can. You appear unable to do so and so are quickly losing the debate and the respect of the scores of people reading this thread every day. Bring on the debate with a credible response, and admit that I am correct!


you don't want people to start from what they are seeing with their own eyes.

Of course I do. I want everyone to see for themselves how you cite erroneous people like Brian Holmes, William Thomas, and Gabriel Stetter, all of whom incorrectly state that contrails can only form at temperatures below -76 degreesF, while the truth is presented clearly on my website:
http://worldzone.net/science/reality2u30/normalcon.html


You admit that your motives are malicious and that you want to obstruct independent debate between chemtrail activists and climate scientists. Mainly by psychologically pressurising climate scientists and above all by never allowing anybody anywhere to relax..

Yes, I hold malice towards liars and disinformationalists. No, you will never have a chance to relax as long as i wish you to remain in tension. I challenge you to cite by name a climate scientist who will substantiate your claim that I have psychologically pressured him/her. You will not be able to do so, however.


So far with me you have achieved the exact opposite of your ostensible objectives. You have been instrumental in putting me in contact with influential climate scientists and making it possible for them to make their first discoveries concerning 'chemtrails'. They are not, to the best of my knowledge, and if they have any sense, following the debate here, so that I don't have to win pseudo-scientific arguments with you in order to retain credibility with them, or with anybody else. Quite the contrary.

Me thinks thou dost protest too much, Wayne. You can't say in one breath that I am exerting malicious psychological pressure, then say that I have had no effect! The scientist I am in contact with at Tyndall stated that they were already aware of the "chemtrail" hoax. When i directed them to my website they were able to learn the dirty truth your cult. Don't assume they haven't read all about you behind your back. A google with your name and the word chemtrails leads them straight to this thread!
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=wayne+Hall+chemtrails&btnG=Search


You want to be present in every discussion, and have every aspect of debate centring not around the realities of anthropogenic climate change and what is being proposed and also apparently done in response to it but rather around your fetish of chemtrails and contrails.

You are not making much sense here, Wayne. You are the one trying to persuade people that what they see are chemtrails. I say they are contrails. I have challenged you to debate over the LLNL paper, I have challenged you to debate contrails vs chemtrails, but you refuse to engage in a discussion of it, or provide a credible person who will. If you won't debate the subject, and you did challenge anyone to debate the subject in your first post 231 pages ago, what are you really trying to do here?


The mania with which you try to insert this into the centre of the debate is politically, sociologically and psycho-pathologically, not scientifically, motivated. It is your world, your connections and your definition of reality that is at stake. But you are not any more part of genuine reality than Gaiacomm is. Conducting debate with you is about as meaningful an activity as arguing with him about his ideas on the Chinese.

Wayne, take a long look at yourself in the mirror.
It's clear you are tired.
It's clear you can't compete scientifically.
It's clear I can bring up points forever which you cannot even begin to refute.
You have made so many errors here, and left so many questions unanswered, there is no way to correct them all.
Even though you have almost twice as many posts as I do, it has been a losing battle from the start of the very first page.
Every twist and turn you make, there is a countermove; swift, sharp, and to the point.
The more lies you tell, the deeper the pit you dig, and the more chains you forge with which I can bind you.
You are forced by me to remain here and be the "chemtrails whipping-boy" until I allow you to go away.
Now is your chance.
Give it up.
Get over it.
Get out of it.
Stop the hoax.

[jayreynolds]

Wayne, I again challenge you or your chemmie friends to answer some basic questions about the hoax which so preoccupies you. Should I let Dr. Schellnhuber know that you remain unable to answer these interrogatives which have remained unanswered for the past 230+ pages, Wayne?


4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "geoengineering"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

WHY ARE YOU CHEMMIES SO AFRAID OF THESE SIMPLE QUESTIONS?
.

I am adding another question to the list as of today. This one awaits responses which can be the subject of continuing debate among the scientifically literate, now that Wayne has decided he no longer wishes to continue and has left the forum.

10.Since it is physically impossible for today's jet fleet to accomplish the proposed LLNL geoengineering goal of placing particulate in the stratosphere, due to altitude ceilings, why do "chemtrail" promoters continue advocating that it is already being undertaken?

[gaiacomm]

Kerry will lose to Bush this election year because Oil is more important that tomato paste!

[gaiacomm]

President Bush's daughter wishes to enlist in the Army so she can go to Iraq and help fight the war on terror and make her daddy proud!

[halva]

Raynolds, I indicated as I said my reasons for staying on this board, and if you continue to claim that it is because of your presence here, I will remind you again exactly what I said.

But that is for another posting. For the moment, let me merely reassert that it is you who remain here because of me. I am possibly the last person left in the universe to whom it is possible for you to be "Jay Reynolds". You have been banned from every chemtrails forum on the internet. You are not a personage of the public media such as television and radio who are able to assert their reality as human entities to mass audiences. You depend entirely on the internet, and in fact, apart from on this thread, nobody is aware of your existence as "Jay Reynolds".

You cannot even persuade Lance Haubrick that he is Gaiacomm, because he doesn't know you exist and doesn't want to know. It is because this thread is your last lifeline to the personage of "Jay Reynolds" that your postings here are imbued with their peculiar frenzy.

If you lose this last link, you disappear entirely from the face of the earth.

You are here because of me, and it is true that I have indulged you far more than anybody else does or ever would. The moderators here are not indulging you. Their inertia in not removing you from this forum is a by-product of abstract ideological commitment to pluralism. You as an entity are not on their radar screen. They do not perceive that you exist either.

A posting or two back you entertained me with some ruminations about the Tyndall Centre. Until such times as I am told DIRECTLY by someone else other than you or one of your hangers-on, and ALSO receive documentary proof to the contrary, my position is that you have not had any communication with anybody at the Tyndall Centre. The Tyndall Centre has not gone against its stated policy of not engaging in one-to-one dialogue with climate change debunkers, You are simply inventing everything you have said to me in this respect.

As for argumentation about contrails vs chemtrails, I am not going to devote as much as another word to anything related to that issue, or rather non-issue.

I understand your desperation, because as I say, this thread is the LAST PLACE ANYWHERE where you can be "Jay Reynolds" and I have been the ONLY PERSON to have given you recognition in this role.

That recognition has now been withdrawn.

[jayreynolds]

Very cute, Wayne. However, like it or not, I am here and here you must remain, because I say so. See, you have many lessons to learn and I am the only one willing and indeed able to tell you the truth. Your chem-buddies won't do it, William Thomas and Gabriel Stetter won't do it. I am your last source for true and honest feedback, likely the only true friend you ever had.

Let me put it to you this way. What kind of friend let's his buddy leave the party rip-roaring out of his mind, knowing that that fellow will have to negotiate a downhill and twisted mountain road?

No, Wayne, as much as you might like to think so, the people you may have assumed were really on your side, people like Throatee, Amber, SMT, even Deborah Stark(footsldier) are the same people who let you go off the edge of the cliff into la-la land, off the road following Thomas and his ilk. They know that depending on that sort means having to atone for their errors and misinformation. They could have warned you, they could have shown you the better way, but they didn't.

I., on the other hand, have done my best to literally grab the keys for that car away from you.
I tried to stop you at the door.
I cajoled, argued, bitched and griped.
I told you what a stupid fool you were to go careering off into the dark, blind as a bat.
I pointed them out and evencorrected your errors for you.
I warned you in every way I could.

Yes, Wayne, I am likely the best, and possibly the last good friend you will ever have.

And what have I gotten in return?
The same cold-shoulder treatment you got from the folks at Tyndall, the old brush-off.
You have given me the threats about banning, the lies and deceit, the backstabbing and slurring.

Hey, I never even complained about you misspelling my name, not even once have I complained!

Look, Wayne. For me, being banned at a "chemtrails" forum means I am doing something right. If I was able to "go-along to get-along", I simply wouldn't be honest. I have enough integrity in my convictions that I cannot accommodate any deceit or misinformation at all, not even among people who appear to be in full agreement with me. Those most closely associated with me have found that out, over and over.

I base my self-respect and personal integrity on my own thoughts and actions, needing not in the slightest the approval or approbation of anyone else.

The dregs sink to the bottom.
The whey runs away.
The cheese stands alone.

For you, however, personal pride can only come from 'the group', or from an association with those you mistakenly perceive as worthy of emulation, even if those people are so low they can't stand up and face people like me in open, personal debate, people like William Thomas, Carnicom and the others. People even as low as that boost your esteem because you know you are even lower than they are!

Indeed, you seek out and covet the approval of others incessantly, because in your heart of hearts, you know you are just the same worthless asshole you have always been, and ever will be.........

[jayreynolds]

As for argumentation about contrails vs chemtrails, I am not going to devote as much as another word to anything related to that issue, or rather non-issue.

Famous last words?

yeah, right

[jayreynolds]

Strange thing, Wayne. I do recall reading this, but don't recall any chemmies ever touting this article. See for yourself.
http://198.107.45.79/story.php?story=1982

oh, I guess it's true. Chemmies really have no sense of humor:
http://www.wweek.com/story.php?story=2045

[halva]

1. Raynolds please don’t post links.

I remember from very early on that you posted a link, which I foolishly clicked, and it turned out to be a pornography site.

Since that day I have had a problem with unsolicited obscene e-mails.

2. I also note that since I announced I am no longer going to recognize the fictitious personage identifying himself on this thread as “Jay Reynolds”, Gaiacomm has also ceased posting. This suggests to me that “Gaiacomm” is in fact an alter ego of “Jay Reynolds”. This is certainly a more plausible idea than the preposterous notion that Lance Haubrick, who exists and to whom I have spoken on the telephone, has been posting here under the name of “Gaiacomm”. Lance Haubrick is clearly an ordinary, unassuming, young working man quite lacking either the motivation or the capacity to project the complex, contradictory, impulsive, fickle persona of the “Gaiacomm” we have become familiar with on this thread. “Jay Reynolds”, by contrast, would certainly be capable of also being “Gaiacomm”, and would be motivated to assume a second role on the forum in order to keep up audience involvement [the hope being, of course, that there is an audience, which there is not, apart from me], injecting a certain unpredictability, lightness and drama that would otherwise be lacking, if all we were being served here were monotonous catalogues of questions, personal attacks and endless variations on the essentially uninteresting “contrails/chemtrails” subject.

3. Raynolds. the fact is that you are a little wannabe and nothing more. You wannabe someone like the would-be cowboy you have presiding over your country, who has so far managed to get whole populations believing (or acting as if they believe) that his business associate Osama Bin-Laden, or his daddy’s customer and client Saddam Hussein, or someone like that, demolished the World Trade Center.

Raynolds, you cannot successfuly deceive on such a scale. It is beyond you. You cannot even persuade me, your only audience, that chemtrails are made of water vapour and that Gaiacomm is Lance Haubrick. The fact is that the role models you revere are doing you harm. If I were as anxious to be your friend as you are to be mine, this would deeply disturb me, and I would try to encourage you to turn elsewhere to find heroes for emulation.

But I am not. As I said, I have other reasons for remaining here.

[jayreynolds]

Listen up, Wayne.
You need help, man.
I never posted a link to any porn site.
Guess what, everybody in the world gets unsolicited porn e-mail spam, including children.
I am not posing as giacomm, as any of your chemmie friends will tell you.
He is Lance Haubrick, believe it, or not.

BTW, I thought you weren't going to recognize me anymore, but in your last posting you seem to have personified, in me, all your worst enemies rolled up in one!

You are a man clearly on the edge of sanity.
Now, jump!

[jayreynolds]

Wayne, since I have decided to become your best friend, I simply must share with you something that you might dread. It is text from my conversation with Dr. Sarah Cornell of the Tyndall Centre.
http://www.uea.ac.uk/~e136/

She tells me that you, too have been in contact with her.
As you know, she is the assistant to the director, John Schellnhuber. She is well qualified, and her work has included research(published in NATURE) analyzing atmospheric deposition of material from rain and snow. As you can imagine, she, along with thousands of other scientists, know exactly what sort of stuff is floating in the sky, and they know that there are NO "CHEMTRAILS".

This means, Wayne, that the moment you told her that there was a vast conspiracy to place tens of milllions of tons of particles in the sky, she knew you were fatally flawed, because she and her colleagues had already done experiments which disproved it!

First, here is what I wrote to her:
==========================
Dear Sirs/Madam,
It has come to my attention that one Wayne Hall has had recent communications with several employees of the Tyndall Centre staff. Mr. Hall most likely approached you without revealing his true intentions which is to involve the Tyndall Centre in a cult of false belief to which he belongs.

Wayne Hall believes in a long-running hoax which has developed a cult-like folllowing over the past five years. The short story is that Hall and his cohorts believe that when they see an airplane making contrails, that they are not ordinary contrails made of water vapor from jet engine exhaust,
but rather nefarious "CHEMTRAILS" sprayed by US military jets.

Some "Chemmies", as they are called, claim that "chemtrails" are:
1. A covert aerial immunization against bioweapons(2117 members)
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com
2.An attack by alien Reptilian overlords of doom(635 members):
http://eff2.proboards21.com/
3.Geoengineering to combat global warming(237 members)
http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi#stuff
4.chemtrails are for making people sick and various(3206 members)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/

"Chemtrail" believers are typically science illiterate, frequently gullible, and sometimes mentally unstable. Some have issued public threats to shoot down contrail forming airplanes with surface-to-air missiles. Some hold other beliefs on the new-age/alien abduction/anti-government/conspiracy/gaia fringe. Most are white middle class Americans with few real world worries and plenty of time on their hands. Most believe "chemtrails" are causing health problems. Almost none of them, however, believe the hoax enough to wear gas masks for protection, as gas masks just aren't very stylish.

This cult, which chiefly communicates via the internet, has existed for the past five years and has as it's primary activity recruitment of new members since it experiences a high turnover of membership. In the case of Wayne Hall, he seems particularly interested in gaining acceptance with the Tyndall Centre because of your recent conference on geoengineering.
His own personal theory is that you scientists are aware of "geoengineering chemtrails" because you can see the contrails he calls "chemtrails", but you are participating in a worldwide coverup because "chemtrails" would violate international law and you are culpable. The way he sees it, since the Tyndall Centre held the geoengineering conference you are trying to break the news about "chemtrails" gently because you truly believe, as he does, that they are necessary to prevent an imminent catastrophe from global warming. His goal is to engage you in discussions so that Tyndall Centre publicly lends support for his cult's claims that when they see contrails, they are seeing "chemtrails" sprayed by US military jets for geoengineering.

For my part, I am probably the longest running skeptic of the "chemtrails" idea, and created my own website debunking some of their claims:
http://worldzone.net/science/reality2u30/
Please consider what I have told you as simply my own person opinion, don't take my word for it.

A simple search using the keywords Wayne Hall and chemtrails will lead you soon enough to the facts of the matter on which you need to decide for yourselves:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Wayne+Hall+chemtrails&btnG=Google+Search

Feel free to let me know what your thoughts are about this, and if you have any further questions.
Sincerely,
Jay Reynolds
==========================
And here was her response:
===================
Dear Jay,

As you know, Wayne Hall has been in contact with the Tyndall Centre, and we are aware of the chemtrail debate on the web. My synthesis of the questions he has asked us is:

-Is it feasible to optimise climate through geoengineering? (specifically, the alteration of the planet’s albedo through cloud formation.)

-Do aircraft contrails have an effect on climate?

-Are aircraft contrails being deliberately put in the sky?

We, as scientists, can comment on some aspects of these questions, and I have responded directly to Wayne in a recent email (I did not put an entry on any of his discussion lists).

Very briefly, my answers are that scientists are looking at the feasibility of geoengineering on various scales, and bio- and geo-sequestration of carbon dioxide can be construed as current practical geoengineering efforts. We know human activity has changed how the planet’s systems function, so it is a valid research question to ask whether and how we can control our effects. For climate control, we certainly wouldn’t start by trying to tweak the clouds and atmosphere, though. Aircraft contribute to warming, not cooling; contrails aren’t easily engineerable; and there is no evidence - despite decades of systematic aerosol and atmospheric analysis - that we are doing anything other than perfectly ‘normal’ pollution, which is of course a serious enough societal problem to address.

There is, as you point out, a great deal else in that debate that is complete speculation, or a matter of opinion and political choice. Of course, as scientists, we have a responsibility to engage with the political world and wider society. But we cannot comment ‘scientifically’ on these issues of trust and political engagement. It is our role to inform society about climate change and its impacts, which is what I have done.

Sincerely,

Sarah



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dr Sarah Cornell CChem MRSC CMarSci MIMarEST

Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research

ZICER, School of Environmental Sciences

University of East Anglia

Norwich – UK

NR4 7TJ

Tel +44 (0)1603 591375

Fax +44 (0)1603 593901

www.tyndall.ac.uk

www.uea.ac.uk/~e136

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[jayreynolds]

Well, folks, there you have it. Wayne told you that I never have had any conversation with the Tyndall centre, that they absolutely had a policy of NOT replying to people like me, that I must have just concocted the whole thing!

I have proved him wrong.

Of course he also claimed that he has had great success persuading them to join his cause.

Well I don't have to prove him wrong, because his only friend there, Dr. Sarah Cornell, already has.

See, Wayne, it's always best to not overstate your case, you got the other chemmies to believing that you were really gaining ground, that you had the scientists at Tyndall centre onboard, when what you have really gotten is yet another in a long chain of rejections.

All your chemmie friends are watching, Wayne.
What are they going to think about your credibility now, Wayne???

[jayreynolds]

Wayne, I can see you are reading at this very moment. Your ears are turning red, my friend.
Your buddy,
Jay

[halva]

As far as whom I am in contact with at Tyndall. Well, when you make full disclosure of what they have told you, including full text and names, then I will too.


Raynolds, I have not disclosed anything to you, and you have disclosed to me that you have been in communication with Dr. Sarah Cornell.

If this is true it greatly simplifies matters. Thank you. I intend to persist in not revealing any corresponding information to you.

Marvellous what a little firmness can do.

It is clear that I was perfectly correct in my assumptions that you and Gaiacomm are indeed the same person. What has become even clearer is that "Gaiacomm" is not a pseudonym for Jay Reynolds, but in fact both "Gaiacomm" and "Jay Reynolds" are alternative personifications of none other than Dr. Judah Ben-Hur. This is a conclusion that has been maturing for a long period in my mind, but it has now grown to absolute certainty.

For a start the instability of Dr. Judah Ben-Hur, the triumphalist posturing followed by abject climbdowns, are behaviour that one would not associate with the single-minded macho aggressiveness of "Reynolds".

But as we can see in today's developments, it may be the "Reynolds" identify that is the cover. Dr. Judah Ben-Hur is a deeply subversive individual, with a huge grudge against the United States. What more ideal camouflage and alibi for him than to assume the mantle of the superpatriot Bush-supporting Reynolds?

In fact I suspect that it is as Dr. Judah Ben-Hur that Reynolds probably made his approach to Tyndall, and to Dr .Sarah Cornell, because in "Reynolds/Ben-Hur's" Jekyll/Hyde personality it is undoubtedly the suave, cosmopolitan Jewish intellectual that would be best equipped to insinuate his way into the heart of the shy but cultivated English researcher. To cover his tracks "Reynolds/Ben-Hur" was thus obliged to concoct an alternative correspondence, the correspondence that Jay Reynolds would have penned if it had been he that had made the overture. But, fully aware that the uncouth Texas oilman and tree-farmer Reynolds would be at a distinct disadvantage keeping the welcoming mat there at the door of Dr. Sarah if it should ever leak out that it is Reynolds, and not Dr. Judah Ben-Hur, that is represented here at Arianna's forum as having paid court to Dr. Cornell, Reynolds/Ben-Hur is desperately afraid that the truth could leak out, that someone here (or rather, I, halva, because no-one else is here) might betray the news to Dr. Sarah that the man who came knocking on her door, bouquet of carnations in hand, was not the charming, witty and urbane lion of the salons of Miami Dr. Ben-Hur but rather a churlish 4x4 driver with mud on his boots and distinctly pronounced prejudices to the effect that anthropogenic global warming is A LOAD OF OLD TEXAS COW DROPPINGS, and the activity of the Tyndall Centre almost without exception pursuit of pies in the sky. Did Judah Ben-Hur in his Reynolds manifestation not after all admit that he could not give a damn about anything the Tyndall Centre is doing, except insofar as it is of interest to "chemmie morons".

So, I do not predict any good outcome for this latest love affair of Ben-Hur/Reynolds with his transatlantic sweetheart Dr. Cornell. In fact what I predict is an outbreak of cognitive dissonance on Dr. Sarah's part as she strains to comprehend whether this man with his foot in her door is Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde, Ben-Hur or Reynolds, followed by panic-stricken rejection, repulsion and flight to saner and better informed company.

[gaiacomm]

This is really good, now I am three people! JR its quite obvious you will always think that I am Lance and thats ok. Actually it works out ok for all of us in the long run. Now Wayne says I am you.

Yes wayne you caught me I am JR. What do I do now? Come on Wayne focus your energy!

Anyway Karen and I will be meeting soon to have tea and discuss all of this ranting. JR if you wish come with us you can. After all she is your wife!

[jayreynolds]

Wayne, stay away from the edge.
Get a grip.
Hold on tight.
Stay there, someone will come for you soon.
regards,
Your suave cowboy jew buddy, wiping the crap off his boots on the salon carpet.
Jay Reynolds

[halva]

Wayne, discussion of this matter is closed to you.
The quote is accurate and came directly from a PhD scientist at Tyndall Centre who wishes to remain anonymous within the context of our discussion here.


Raynolds/Ben-Hur says that it is Lady Sarah who wishes to remain anonymous and so wishes their illegal liaison to remain secret, but how could this be so? How could it be possible for Judah Ben-Hur alias Jay Raynolds so frivolously to betray her trust just for the sake of being able boastfully to refute claims that she would never give herself to a man like him?

No. The matter is not so simple. In fact Lady Sarah was quite flattered to be courted by the charming, cosmopolitan Judah Ben-Hur and did not wish their love to be kept secret. It was in fact the gauche and uncouth Reynolds, to which grotesque personage the courtly Judah Ben-Hur reverts when the effects of the transforming potion he swallows have worn off, that wanted the secret of his affair with Lady Sarah to be kept from his own wife Karen.

Now, in a moment of unthinking bravado, he had allowed it to slip out. Karen was going to find out that she is married to a scheming, unfaithful deceiver. Halva, the only person following Raynold/Ben-Hur's confessional thread at Arianna's Forum, will send her the incriminating document, the damning revelation.

Desperately racking his brain for any subterfuge that will allow him to gain time and postpone the horrid day of reckoning, Raynolds/Ben-Hur seizes on the strategem of returning to his old habit of posting at Arianna's as Gaiacomm. There he subtly allows to slip out the equally damning and treacherous suggestion that in fact Karen too, is seeing another man. This, he hopes against hope, will blunt halva's determination to reveal, on moral grounds, the news to Karen about his Raynolds secret trysts with Lady Sarah. To complicate matters further he makes it appear that the other man in Karen's life is Dr. Judah Ben-Hur. This may seem impossibly mystifying, but in fact, let the truth be known, RAYNOLDS, despite all evidence to the contrary, is simply incapable of facing the truth that all the world already knows that he himself is Dr. Judah Ben-Hur.

How long can this desperate stratagem deter halva from breaking the news to Karen about Raynolds' cavortings with Lady Sarah?

[jayreynolds]

I never debunked anyone into insanity before, but they say there
is a first time for everything

[halva]

Raynolds I'm rather busy with the real debate at the moment, but I'll be back in due course.

Not to debate with you, needless to say.

[halva]

I never debunked anyone into insanity before, but they say there
is a first time for everything

This is not intended as a resumption of the debate with Dr. Judah Ben-Hur, but as a message to the public, if by any chance any unfortunate soul other than myself should chance to pass this way.

Dr. Judah Ben-Hur would doubtlesss have debunked VERY MANY people either into insanity or into withdrawal into their own private affairs, (in Greek "idiotikes hypotheses"). In other words if they have not become insane they have become IDIOTS.

The fact is that this "Jay Reynolds" persona adopted by Dr. Judah Ben-Hur purely and simply as an alibi and cover for his deep hatred of the United States of America (and of the state of Israel) so that his subversive desire to overthrow the Great Satan and himself become King of the Jews, took on a life of its own. So afraid of discovery and public exposure was Dr. Judah Ben-Hur that he put much more effort and energy into being his cover "Jay Reynolds" than he put into pursuit of his own original schemes of saving the world and becoming recognized as the new Messiah. The "Jay Reynolds" identity became a Frankenstein monster, adding to the sufferings of the world that Dr. Judah Ben-Hur had initially hoped to moderate by entering public life, albeit conspiratorially.

The whole story provides much food for thought and material for sober reflection.

[jayreynolds]

Hi, Wayne. Hope you're back on your meds.
Don't you just hate it when news like this gets out?
http://p090.ezboard.com/fcontrailsandchemtrails22884frm1.showMessage?topic ID=2407.topic

Tough ;uck we missed each other today, old buddy. I had to be in Temple this morning, a circumcision to attend to this time.

Now, you are making a claim that there is a debate going on? Let's see, debates are between people with opposing viewpoints openly presenting their best cases before the public, right?

Or is this a secret members only 'debate' between two people who are in the same choir?

I figured since you haven't bragged about the outcome the following possibilities exist:

1. No such 'debate' took place, it is a complete fantasy.

2. As in the case of the Tyndall centre, the opposing side disagreed and brushed you off, they wrote back saying they didn't believe in "chemtrails", but come back if you ever get proof.

Obviously, you haven't got any proof, as even your supposed best friend, Dr. Nikos Katsaros, Director of the Demokritos Institute of Athens told me, "No such proof of chemtrails exists."

Obviously you haven't won a debate, or you would be crowing about it. Obviously, you don't want public input because deceit must be worked in secret, behind veils, and beyond light.

Gosh, sounds like one of those conspiracies you chemmies are always accusing people of!

Either way, it's a ho-hum. Come back when you've got some new material, Wayne.

Oh, what do you think about the latest commercialization of the hoax, is this a good sign, considering that Carnicom is the fellow that dug into his jawbone day after day with a needle until he was able to extract a nerve ending and blamed it on "chemtrails"?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/message/113837

Oh, and don't forget he continues to spread other obvious disinformation:
From "Mech":
http://www.carnicom.com/mech1.htm

And what do you think about the T-shirt, coffee jug, and desk ornament trade being developed
around the chemtrails hoax? This guy gets around:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/message/113831
http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=Discussion&action=display&num=1090098070
========
And last but not least, how about's that cowboy Lance Armstrong cutting loose a can of Texas whup-ass over in france?
http://www.sundayherald.com/43491

[halva]

Dr. Judah Ben-Hur, if you want a debate, here post a reply to Reynolds as Gaiacomm.

[gaiacomm]

Dr. Judah Ben-Hur, if you want a debate, here post a reply to Reynolds as Gaiacomm.


Wayne: I am a patriot, period! My views of the world are my own based on experience and observation.

As for JR and me well this is a twist in a story! I think the debate for me is finished for now. Chemtrails needs someone from the inside to present hard evidence to the public.

The ping pong match with JR is just that. I directed you to Monsanto for your answer.

[halva]

Raynolds, stop avoiding the issue and give Raynolds the answers he's asking for.

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Wayne, you are now claiming that Jay Reynolds is a fiction concocted by "Dr. Judah Ben-hur".

Well, you'll have to admit that if that is true, then there should be no way that third-party confirmable proof of my existence such as this would be available:
http://www.tamug.edu/Develop/wherenowr.htm#R
http://www.tamug.edu/news/seagpdf/06.pdf

Now, my claim is that "Dr. Judah Ben-hur" is a fiction concocted by Lance Haubrick.
I challenge him to provide third-party confirmable proof of his existence. Not self-promotion at his own website or some PR site where anyone can post whatever. I mean real information
at an official site controlled by public persons who are willing and able to confirm the information presented.

Let's roll.

[gaiacomm]

Hey, Wayne, you are now claiming that Jay Reynolds is a fiction concocted by "Dr. Judah Ben-hur".

Well, you'll have to admit that if that is true, then there should be no way that third-party confirmable proof of my existence such as this would be available:
http://www.tamug.edu/Develop/wherenowr.htm#R
http://www.tamug.edu/news/seagpdf/06.pdf

Now, my claim is that "Dr. Judah Ben-hur" is a fiction concocted by Lance Haubrick.
I challenge him to provide third-party confirmable proof of his existence. Not self-promotion at his own website or some PR site where anyone can post whatever. I mean real information
at an official site controlled by public persons who are willing and able to confirm the information presented.

Let's roll.

JR, the Gaiacomm International Website is not controlled by me. Feel free to contact any of the Directors that are listed on the website. They all have their individual emails. After your conformation then I would like for you to apoligize to Lance.

Your move, JR!

JR, call me collect in Los Angeles if you like. Lance is not here he is in another State. Remember I have a 310 area code!

Lets talk JR, I won't bite!

[halva]

It is not mere personal stubbornness that keeps me posting here.

It is true that at some point earlier in the “debate”, when Sore Throat dropped out and it was more or less only Foot Soldier and Show Me Truth that were still making worthwhile postings I did start telling people to leave the thread and leave me to merely spam in foreign languages and so on, as I proposed.

For a long time Foot Soldier appeared unwilling to take this advice and continued making some very worthwhile postings, mostly references and links but nevertheless valuable.

From the beginning I have been unwilling to answer Raynolds’ questions and I did not ask him to answer them either. Gaiacomm did that, partly in order to give the false impression that he and Raynolds are not the same person. In fact I am not interested either in Raynolds' questions or in his answers.

I did ask him three questions of my own. This was his response to the first of them:

Question:
"1. Why do you play the self-appointed intermediary between "chemmies" and environmental scientists, given your claim that scientists are anyway perfectly capable of protecting themselves from the contagion of what you identify as "chemmie" viewpoints?"

Answer: Well, Wayne, I do it because I damn well feel like doing it, and there isn't a hell of a lot you can do about it, so bugger off and eat this, slag-boy.

Raynolds then attached extracts from a letter he wrote to the Tyndall Centre, making it clear that his intentions were to disrupt the dialogue we had initiated with them and frighten climate scientists away from talking to us, on any subject, those they were already debating, those that only we had expressed interest in, or those of mutual interest.

He failed in this.

Raynolds' whole stance on this thread resembles that of the Defense Department official rubbing it in to the Gulf War veteran that he cannot prove his cancer was caused by exposure to depleted uranium munitions. Sadism, in other words. The veteran in such an instance, being a petitioner, has to continue the dialogue with the official if he wants to keep petitioning.

But we are not in any such relation to Raynolds. We are asking nothing of him. He has nothing he can give us our deny us. Why should any of us be interested in giving him even the time of day?

Coming back to what I said at the beginning that it is not mere stubbornness that keeps me posting here: This thread is on the Arianna Huffington forum, Arianna Huffington being a politician who operates on the basis of the ground rules of liberal democracy, which attaches great importance to freedom of speech, privileging it over other values. It is arguably a matter of principle for a politican working within such a framework that public debate leave itself open to disruption and disorganization by people such as Raynolds.

Personally I do not think it is right that liberal democracy should enjoy a monopoly, that it should be the only kind of politics that people have the right to choose as a system by which they are governed. If one does not believe that freedom of speech is a supreme value that may override all other values, it should be possible to make a political choice that reflects this belief.

I acknowledge that Arianna Huffington has not been won over to conceptions of this kind. Therefore, apart from stubbornness, I remain here as a reminder of the conceptions, and the demand.

I reiterate that I am not going to attempt to answer any question asked by Raynolds/Judah Ben-Hur/Gaiacomm.

[jayreynolds]

JR, th' Gaiacomm Internashunal Website is not corntrolled by me. Feel free t'contack enny of th' Direcko's thet is listed on th' website. They all haf their indivijool emails. Af'er yer cornfo'mashun then ah w'd like fo' yo' t'apoligize t'Lance. Yer move, JR! Fry mah hide! JR, call me colleck in Los Angeles eff'n yo' like. Lance is not hyar he is in t'other State. Remember ah have a 310 area code! Lets talk JR, ah won't bite

!
Yeah, right.

All those email addresses come through the gaiacomm domain name and are accessible and answerable by you. And I am aware of how remote access to call fowarding can make it appear a person is anywhere he wants to appear to be, probably something that wayne doesn't know about.
.
Sorry, Lance Haubrick, I don't buy into sucker's games.
Only real third parties count in this challenge, not more of your 'sock puppets'.
Show us a full CV that can be checked out independently of any references you supply.

Gotcha!

[gaiacomm]

Yeah, right.

All those email addresses come through the gaiacomm domain name and are accessible and answerable by you. And I am aware of how remote access to call fowarding can make it appear a person is anywhere he wants to appear to be, probably something that wayne doesn't know about.
.
Sorry, Lance Haubrick, I don't buy into sucker's games.
Only real third parties count in this challenge, not more of your 'sock puppets'.
Show us a full CV that can be checked out independently of any references you supply.

Gotcha!

Well I guess you will have to wait to find out! Get the letter to Lance ready! Also say hello to Karen!

[jayreynolds]

The facts show that "giacon' is unable to provide any independent reference whatsoever, which he does not personally control, which can confirm that he, in fact, exists outside the construct of a pseudonym for Lance Haubrick.

See, wayne, no need to go wild and get crazy onus.

There is only one person telling the truth in these matters, and he is, Jay Reynolds.

Get used to it.
Get over it.
Get out of it.
End the "chemtrails" hoax.

currently 21969 page views

[jayreynolds]

THE TRUTH COMES OUT.
Below you will find that what I have been telling you is 100% correct.
The text was released by Dona Terry of CTTUSA and is insider talk between Wayne and Deborah('footsoldier') about Wayne's so-called
"debate" with Dr. Sarah Cornell of the Tyndall centre.

What have I been telling you?
-That Dr. Cornell has been telling Wayne that "chemtrails" are a fiction, that no "geoengineering" is taking place, that it is all chemmie speculation.

-That Deborah and her chemmie buddies KNOW THE TRUTH, that what they are seeing are not geoengineering "chemtrails" in the stratosphere, but ordinary contrails in the upper troposphere.

THEY KNOW THEY ARE PROMOTING MISINFORMATION AND LIES, BUT DO IT ANYWAYS.

Here it is, straight from the asses mouths:

Message 113843 of 113848 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg #

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/message/113843
From: "i_dont_chat" <i_dont_chat@y...>
Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:54 pm
Subject: Tyndall 5th Posting -- an interesting read

I am re-printing message #835, dated July 17, 2004, taken from this
Yahoo group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ama_lahi/

To CTTUSA Members: I joined this group because of an interesting
exchange on chemtrails, called Tyndall postings. This is the 5th
one. You can find the others at the group. You must join to read
them. Membership is upon approval. Please say that you are a member
of CTTUSA and are interested in the Tyndall postings. I am sure that
the owner will approval all of your memberships.

Now for the good stuff:

EXCERPTS from Tyndall 5th Posting and RESPONSES:

DEBORAH: Too bad the issues involved have become so hopelessly
politicized.

WAYNE: This is a formulation that you seem to share with Dr. Sarah
Cornell, who says: "We, as scientists, can comment on some
aspects of these questions… There is a great deal else in your debate
that is speculation, or a matter of opinion and political choice."

As far as I am concerned the difference between the stance of a person
who wants to tell the truth and a person who for allegedly political
reasons judges that it is better not to do so, does not deserve to be
called a `political difference' or a matter of `political
choice'.

Also, if a scientist, in the explanation he offers for a situation,
rather than explaining what `political choice' leads
politicians to do, does the same thing himself/herself, he/she ceases
to be a scientist (or rather ceases to deserve the respect claimed by
science) and becomes a politician.

**RESPONSE: For some reason I have a feeling I'm walking right into
the Jaws of Death here but so be it.

I interpret Dr. Cornell's comment above as follows: I think what she's
saying is that the researchers themselves can comment on the
specifically scientific aspects of a given project. (In my personal
experience most sientists are actually very pleased to respond to
public inquiry regarding the scientific aspects of their work as they
tend to be somewhat isolated owing to the demands of such an
intrinsically focused working environment.)

When Dr. Cornell says, "There is a great deal else in your debate that
is speculation, or a matter of opinion and political choice" I think
she is conveying by implication that public inquiry regarding the
political, social and ethical considerations of a given project is
considered to be the sphere of the public relations staff which are a
part of every research institution.

In other words, it is the job of the researchers to conduct the
studies and provide organized data - and it is the job of the public
relations staff to generate news releases and other communications
which serve to interpret the findings of the researchers to the
non-scientist public.

For what it's worth I am going to add here that I spent 15 years as a
research assistant in two labs of a major medical school doing
specialized cell culture and microsurgery, so I know from direct
experience that there is in fact a point beyond which scientists
simply cannot be completely open about their work until it is
completed, peer-reviewed and published. Also, the research process is
demanding, sometimes tedious and endlessly repetitive, often thankless
and very time-consuming as well as extremely rewarding and
exhilarating - and it above all requires a specific ability to
continually focus not only on a myriad of details but simultaneously
on the Big Picture as well. One has to be temperamentally suited for
this kind of work in addition to having an aptitude for it.

Bottom line - and based on my own experience - while I can understand
why people might think that Dr. Cornell is withholding the desired
answers to the questions at hand, it is my opinion that she is in fact
being completely honest about what she personally is in a position to
provide. It is up to the PR staff to interact with the public on other
than the specifically scientific components of an institution's work
in progress.

WAYNE: Some of the scientists at Livermore seem similarly to have
become politicians. For example, the `Active Climate
Stabilization' paper by Teller and others, which claims that its
recommendation will enable:

1. "Every person's right to a decent `energy standard of
living to be respected'"

2. "Severe energy rationing not to be crammed down the throat of
the Third World" ("Already a widely-rejected gambit and a
self-evidently unethical one" [sic]

This is OUTRAGEOUSLY POLITICAL. The moreso because public
participation (including `Third World' participation) in this
debate is being systematically blocked!!!! The blockage is a
prerequisite for the Livermore scientists being able to appoint
themselves `Third World' spokespersons and use terms like `self-
evidently'.

**RESPONSE: I've read this, too, Wayne, and I was every bit as
disgusted as you appear to be. I've read the texts of a great many of
the last 25 years' climate change think-tank discussions and have
found them to be permeated with a frankly patronizing orientation to
"Third World" considerations. I am being very restrained in my
characterization here.

{balance of text in my next posting-JR}

[jayreynolds]

{continued from last post}
To allow myself a moment of spontaneous gut expression, I will say
that not only does the "First World" reserve the right to pollute unto
death the basic life-support systems upon which every living being on
this earth depends for survival, but it also reserves the right to
link "solutions" directly to their impact on the economy that THEY
wish to sustain in order to support THEIR desired standard of living
AND to micro-manage response to the negative impact(s) of
anthropogenic climate change on the very people (easily 60% of the
world's population) who are least equipped to deal with them.

Unbelievably arrogant, infuriating and unconscionable.

WAYNE: Dr. Sarah Cornell states: "This particular geoengineering
option [aerosol spraying] isn't excluded because it is "science
fiction" – on the contrary, our knowledge of the science facts
tell us unambiguously that trying to manipulate the atmosphere will
not lead to climate optimisation…

If you wanted to cool the planet by making clouds, you would be very
ill-advised to choose a mechanism (laying jet contrails) that made
clouds with such a short effective life, of the wrong type and in the
wrong place (indeed, contrails are likely to contribute to warming not
cooling), and that was also much more likely to add to the warming of
the planet by increasing the concentrations of climate-active
greenhouse gases."

W.H. Does this not contradict the assertions in the "Active
Climate Stabilization" paper, which claims to be an approach to
`preventing BOTH TYPES of climate change (i.e. both cooling and
warming).

**RESPONSE: Dr. Cornell's point here is that "laying jet contrails"
(in the upper troposphere) as a methodology to achieve a net planetary
cooling effect simply will not work as it has now been conclusively
determined that aviation contrails and resulting persistent contrail
cirrus actually exert a net WARMING effect on the atmosphere.

Note that she is not referencing the loading of the STRATOSPHERE with
particulate emissions, which is an ENTIRELY different matter.

WAYNE: Dr. Sarah Cornell writes: "Your concern seems to be that
emissions from aircraft are being altered deliberately to "sunscreen"
the planet. First of all, as I said, the radiative and chemical
effects of the contrails tend to work in the wrong direction for
cooling, and the net effects globally are uncertain or indeterminate.
Secondly, there is no evidence at all in the atmospheric chemistry
that chemically altered emissions are being generated."

"There is certainly no indication that either organic matter or
sulphate (the two most active materials for condensation nuclei for
aerosol formation) have been put into the atmosphere, apart from the
pollutants that we as society have tacitly accepted as normal and
acceptable as a trade-off for our pursuit of economic improvements.
These are a serious enough problem to address."

W.H. I reiterate my previous remark and add that the second part of
the statement goes against my experience, because particularly in
winter I see aircraft spraying something into the atmosphere over
Athens and elsewhere. They are clearly not scheduled flights. They
involve more than one plane flying back and forth in formation. I want
an explanation what they are and what they are doing. An OFFICIAL
explanation. If we don't get it we will have to sideline existing
officialdom and replace it with officialdom that serves our needs
better..

RESPONSE: I, too, am sick and tired of seeing, for the last five
years, our skies being literally STRAFED with shaving cream-thick
trails and resulting chaotically-spreading "cirrus". One thing I can
say here, and I think it's important to keep this in mind, is that
what we are seeing is taking place in the upper troposphere - NOT in
the stratosphere where the by now familiar-to-us-all Tellerian aerosol
climate mitigation proposals are specifically designed to be deployed.
END

Group, Wayne has been sending these Tyndall postings to me, via my
Yahoo email. I don't know anything about who the participants are. If
you are interested, join the group and inquire.

So, group, what do you think? I'm interested in your comments.

Dona, aka i_dont_chat

[jayreynolds]

Well, now we know why Wayne and his chem-cult buddies want to keep things secret. The things they say behind closed doors are QUITE different from what they say in public indeed!

I'm betting heads will roll and delete buttons are being pushed tonight, in an effort to coverup what little has been released.

Funny, the way the truth has a way of sneaking out all of it's own accord, isn't it, chemmies?

It's as if the truth has a will of it's own and actively seeks out ways that it can shed light on darkness. I think that is as it should be, and chemmies need to take note of the fact.

You can't hide from the truth, it's always there.

love it.

[gaiacomm]

Well, now we know why Wayne and his chem-cult buddies want to keep things secret. The things they say behind closed doors are QUITE different from what they say in public indeed!

I'm betting heads will roll and delete buttons are being pushed tonight, in an effort to coverup what little has been released.

Funny, the way the truth has a way of sneaking out all of it's own accord, isn't it, chemmies?

It's as if the truth has a will of it's own and actively seeks out ways that it can shed light on darkness. I think that is as it should be, and chemmies need to take note of the fact.

You can't hide from the truth, it's always there.

love it.


Jay;

You seek independent verification on me then I suggest you contact any special agent with either the CIA, FBI, NSA, or Secret Service. Contact the head offices and ask for verification of Dr. Judah Ben-Hur. Make sure you tell them its the Dr. that calls for Regime Change within the USA and Project Tesla. I would love to be a fly on the wall!

You seem to contact everyone else so whats the difference?

Gotcha....your move!


Oh yes one more thing JR, Be careful what you wish for....

[foot_soldier]

"jayreynolds" wrote:

.....they know the TRUTH - that what they are seeing are not geoengineering "chemtrails" in the stratosphere, but ordinary contrails in the upper troposphere.....

Yes, Reynolds - and you've been spending a lot more time over the last five years than most of us have put together - DERAILING, DISRUPTING and SUPPRESSING all attempts at substantive dialog regarding the impact of "ordinary contrails" on Earth's atmosphere, climate patterns and hydrology cycles. In other words, THE TRUTH.

You seem to think you've accomplished some kind of victory here.

Whatever makes you happy.

[halva]

An item by Jeremy Reynalds (sic) in the 'Talon News' of June 28, 2004 makes it abundantly clear why Dr. Judah Ben-Hur would seek to hide behind the identity of the strutting loud-mouthed Bushite Jay Reynolds.

After describing the Florida scientist's "ambitious plans to market his global wireless communication system using land-based antennas", Reynalds reveals that "Judah Ben Hur's need for international cooperation to fulfill his dream has landed him in hot water with some people".

A recent post on the conservative bulletin board service Free Republic read in part, "The posts that I have uncovered that this guy has made include rejection by the U.S. government for his little device, which made him really angry. He promptly made the rounds to other countries, and all shot him down. THEN, he turned the other cheek, and even sent Saddam e-mail."

In a recent interview with Talon News, Hur said the writer is absolutely correct in saying that he communicated with the former Iraqi dictator. In late 2002, Hur did send e-mails to former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, but not, he said, to pass on intelligence information.

According to Hur, "My communications system requires that antennas be placed in Iraq. I went around the State Department. I needed cooperation from all of the countries within that region for a global communication system. I did get a response back from one of Saddam's associates. He was open."

However, Hur insisted, he was not doing anything illegal with his activities. Hur said he acting as a goodwill ambassador to try to generate some positive communication, the results of which he would report back to the State Department afterwards.

"I did tell the State Department that I was going to contact individuals and nations not friendly to the United States," Hur said.

And, Hur added in his e-mail negotiations with the then Iraqi authorities, all he asked them was whether they were willing to have antennas placed on their soil and in return, they would then get access to the technology.

According to Hur's web site, "Gaiacomm seeks to provide complete and affordable communication infrastructure solutions worldwide. High-speed global communication is the catalyst to information exchange in real time. This will allow enlightened minds to devote themselves into other areas of intellectual and technical enquiry. By encouraging a transparent exchange of information, peace and goodwill will undoubtedly be fostered."

But Hur's prolific postings on the Internet over the last few years have made people more than a little nervous about his "peace and goodwill."

For example, in an online message found by Talon News, Hur appeared to call for jihad -- an Islamic holy war.

Hur's essay was attributed to Al Jazeera and posted on the China Daily Bulletin Board Service (web site).

Apparently published on April 22, 2004, the online message read in part:

"'Strange times are those in which we live when old and young are taught in falsehoods school. And the one man that dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and a fool.' - Plato"

"'And those who perform jihad for us, we shall certainly guide them in our ways, and God is surely with the doers of good.' (Quran XXXIX; 69)"

"'You have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad.' (Hadith)"

"To all who read and understand: it is time to take the next step in understanding. After careful and meticulous research, including access to files and data guarded by the United States Government, I have uncovered information that has been written about, talked about, read about, and in many cases silenced to protect and to confuse those who wish to uncover its not so guarded secrets."

"Careful and planned exposure of this information seems to be the only way to begin the process of enlightenment of not just the American people but all peoples of this planet who are considered common men and women."

However, Hur said that he is not calling for violence of any kind.

"What I am saying is that the American people need to look at their Constitution and rewrite it," Hur said. "I am calling for an awakening and a recall of the constitution. If I was calling for violence I would not have a link to the Department of Homeland Security."

Hur said there was a simple reason for his message.

"It was to let Muslims know that I understand the Quran and that what they are doing is wrong, but I am not saying that Islam is bad. We all live on this planet -- just in different rooms. My communication system will require everyone to cooperate," Hur explained.

Hur said that if he were really up to no good, he wouldn't have a board of advisors with individuals such as Florida Commissioner of Education Jim Horne, former Florida DOE Chief Technology Officer Ruben P. Lopez, attorney-at-law, J. Allison DeFoor II, the 1990 Lt. Governor running mate of former Florida Governor Bob Martinez, and William E. Horne, President-CEO, Outback Sports, Inc.

Another message on the American Patriot Friends Network (APFN) cast further doubt on Hur's claim to be an apostle of peaceful change.

The message read in part, "It is now time for us all to begin the liberation process to freedom and break the chains that control us all and replace the government of the United States with one that is by the people and for the people. Every attempt will be made to keep this movement bloodless. However, if blood and sacrifice is the only way then let it be so. As a Physicist, I have direct access to technology military weapons systems, and all other forms of technology that can be switched off or destroyed."

"There exist a small but growing number of scientists and engineers that are willing to use their intelligence to begin the movement on the road to freedom. They are Christians, Muslims, Jewish, Buddhists, Hindu, and many other religious belief systems," Hur continued in the message.

"We need to get the word out to the world that there is a serious movement in America that will quickly work towards replacing the entire system of Government in the United States with one that will work for the people," Hur said.

Another of Hur's messages on the same online bulletin board read in part, "Form a coalition of peoples that will standup to the Regimes that control us and replace them completely with one that is truly governed and managed by the people and for the people."

"When we all stand up against the regime it will shout loud, but will soon get tired of its voice, then we take our trumpets and march in the streets and blow them until the walls of despair and control come crumbling down around us," Hur said.

Another post from Hur lumped the United States in the same category as Usama bin Laden. It read in part, "Gaiacomm: A message to the Taliban, Usama Bin Laden, Hamas, Saddam Hussein, al Qaeda, State of Israel, United States of America, Mother Russia, All other so-called Terrorist groups and countries that support religious ignorance. If the above-mentioned individuals and Nations do not listen and change the current social, economic, religious, political arena then a revolution of unprecedented proportions will be levied on all responsible parities without any regard, absolutely!"

Hur added, "The people of this planet must be rid of all infections completely in order to be healed."

Hur said that contacts of his who live in countries where freedom of speech is restricted have asked him in amazement why he isn't in prison for making his controversial views so widely known.

Hur said he tells them that America allows what he does. He wryly suggested that President George W. Bush might even want to use him as a free speech poster child for his reelection campaign.

"I'm promoting democracy," Hur said proudly.

It's all well and good to wax enthusiastic about American democracy, but anyone can understand the everyday difficulties that would be faced by a man preaching Muslim jihad in the United States. The "Reynolds" persona (notice that Ben Hur even has his thinly disguised alter ego writing articles in the 'Talon News') is an obvious necessity to distract attention from a proportion of the activities of this man. Evidence is being gathered and will in due course be presented to the public on how Judah Ben-Hur has been pretending FOR YEARS to be Reynolds, transforming himself into the most single-minded and relentless of chemtrail debunkers and anti-chemtrail activists in order to curry favour with the sections of the United States power elite who would otherwise have given short shrift to the subversive, however 'peacefully' so, Judah Ben-Hur.

Ask yourself how it is that they have left this Ben-Hur undisturbed in Bush's America and you will soon find your investigations on the right track.

The ridiculous staged argument between Gaiacomm and Reynolds over Reynolds' transparently phony assertions about Gaiacomm being in fact a low-profile and extremely publicity-shy white-collar worker Lance Haubrick are merely the latest diversion to distract attention from the fact that for years this "Jay Reynolds" has simply been the secret identity of the jihad warrior Judah Ben-Hur.

[jayreynolds]

"jayreynolds" wrote:

.....they know the TRUTH - that what they are seeing are not geoengineering "chemtrails" in the stratosphere, but ordinary contrails in the upper troposphere.....

Yes, Reynolds - and you've been spending a lot more time over the last five years than most of us have put together - DERAILING, DISRUPTING and SUPPRESSING all attempts at substantive dialog regarding the impact of "ordinary contrails" on Earth's atmosphere, climate patterns and hydrology cycles. In other words, THE TRUTH.

You seem to think you've accomplished some kind of victory here.

Whatever makes you happy.

Well, I'm glad the truth has finally come out, Deborah. about how you know chemtrails are such a sham. You have known for quite awhile, too, haven't you.

You seem to still have no shame about the part you have played in the inception and progress of the hoax, however.

Well, let me tell you, my dear. Not only does the truth always come out, but those who do evil, and that includes you and those you continue to abet and run cover for, get what they deserve.

Yes, this is a victory for the truth, and yes, you have once again been beaten by the truth.
That is why you are responding, isn't it!

[jayreynolds]

. The "Reynolds" persona (notice that Ben Hur even has his thinly disguised alter ego writing articles in the 'Talon News') is an obvious necessity to distract attention from a proportion of the activities of this man. Evidence is being gathered and will in due course be presented to the public on how Judah Ben-Hur has been pretending FOR YEARS to be Reynolds, transforming himself into the most single-minded and relentless of chemtrail debunkers and anti-chemtrail activists in order to curry favour with the sections of the United States power elite who would otherwise have given short shrift to the subversive, however 'peacefully' so, Judah Ben-Hur.

Man, Wayne, you are whacked. Now your old buddy Lance is giacon, Jay Reynolds, Ben-hur, and Jeremey Reynalds, who runs a homeless shelter in Albuquerque?
http://www.joyjunction.org/reynalds.html

Look, the only people you can independently confirm identities for here are Lance, Myself, and Jeremy Reynalds. We are definitely distinct human beings with lives all our own. The fake is giacon/ben-hur, and his part is being played by Lance Haubrick.
Get real, dude, it's embarrassing debunking you, Wayne Hall, when you play the part of a lunatic.

As far as this:
"Evidence is being gathered and will in due course be presented to the public on how Judah Ben-Hur has been pretending FOR YEARS to be Reynolds."
BRING IT ON

[foot_soldier]

Here are some examples of the evil material Reynolds is so offended by:

For What It's Worth - Initiated 9/14/03
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessage?topicID=7471.top ic

CO2 - Initiated 7/14/03
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessage?topicID=7385.top ic

Downwinders - Initiated 3/19/04
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessage?topicID=7720.top ic

Atmospheric Tracers - Initiated 11/30/00
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessage?topicID=3822.top ic

Extensive Reference: Aviation & Global Atmosphere - Initiated 1/27/01
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessage?topicID=4169.top ic

GM Crops - Initiated 7/20/03
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessage?topicID=7391.top ic

Background Information - Initiated August 2000
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailsstratosphericandtroposphericozoneresear ch

================================

You can take your threats of eternal damnation and put them where the sun don't shine, Mr. Reynolds. I'm not doing anything immoral, illegal or unconstitutional. Go find someone else to shit on. The fact that you are diametrically opposed to the idea that we do have some serious environmental problems in this world does not give you the right to suppress the voices of those who do not agree with you.

[halva]

“In general the art of all truly great national leaders at all times consists among other things primarily in not dividing the attention of a people, but in concentrating it upon a single foe. The more unified the application of a people’s will to fight, the greater will be the magnetic attraction of a movement and the mightier will be the impetus of the thrust. It belongs to the genius of a great leader to make even adversaries far removed from one another seem to belong to a single category, because in weak and uncertain characters the knowledge of having different enemies can only too readily lead to the beginning of doubt in their own right.

Once the wavering mass sees itself in a struggle against too many enemies, objectivity will put in an appearance, throwing open the question whether all others are really wrong and only their own people or their own movement are in the right.

And this brings about the first paralysis of their own power. Hence a multiplicity of different adversaries must always be combined so that in the eyes of the masses of one’s own supporters the struggle is directed against only one enemy. This strengthens their faith in their own right and enhances their bitterness against those who attack it.”

Adolf Hitler: "Mein Kampf", Houghton-Mifflin, New York, p.118

Raynolds/Ben-Hur note well!

[jayreynolds]

Here are some examples of the evil material Reynolds is so offended by:
For What It's Worth - Initiated 9/14/03
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessage?topicID=7471.top ic
CO2 - Initiated 7/14/03
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessage?topicID=7385.top ic
Downwinders - Initiated 3/19/04
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessage?topicID=7720.top ic
Atmospheric Tracers - Initiated 11/30/00
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessage?topicID=3822.top ic
Extensive Reference: Aviation & Global Atmosphere - Initiated 1/27/01
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessage?topicID=4169.top ic
GM Crops - Initiated 7/20/03
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessage?topicID=7391.top ic
Background Information - Initiated August 2000
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailsstratosphericandtroposphericozoneresear ch
================================
You can take your threats of eternal damnation and put them where the sun don't shine, Mr. Reynolds. I'm not doing anything immoral, illegal or unconstitutional. Go find someone else to shit on. The fact that you are diametrically opposed to the idea that we do have some serious environmental problems in this world does not give you the right to suppress the voices of those who do not agree with you.

Ironic indeed, Deborah. When I click on the above URLs each and every one, without exception, leads me to the same screen which says:
"YOU ARE BANNED FROM THIS COMMUNITY".

And you have the gall to say I suppress you?

I do know what the contents of those thousands of posts, which you have made with no suppression from me! are, however.

They are simple copy/pastes from the work of other people, monkey work, the sure sign of a simpleton unable to think for herself. A lame attempt at imputing something, but never really getting down to facts, because the facts show that for all your propaganda, what scientists like Dr. Sarah Cornell REALLY say is that the demon which you serve, the "chemtrail" hoax, is just a falsity, a "speculation", or, as she put it:

"and the net effects[of ordinary contrails] globally are uncertain or indeterminate.
Secondly, there is no evidence at all in the atmospheric chemistry
that chemically altered emissions are being generated."

Compare the scientist's remarks to what Deborah preached four years ago:

"I feel that the "contrails" we are now seeing are a "litmus test" of current atmospheric conditions and are showing us VERY CLEARLY that atmospheric chemistry is seriously altered."

Sounds like you've been debunked once again, Deborah, despite your 1000's of hysterical cut/pastes!

So, the facts show that I haven't suppressed Deborah at all, she is able to post thousands of times at Carnicom's board with nary a problem, but the result of all that wasted effort has been absolutely nil on the scientifc community!

Deborah, what really got your claws out was that it was exposed that you don't really believe in all those thousands of posts, that they were all a waste, that you don't really believe in the hoax anymore, and that to really be honest, you would have to become a debunker like me and expose your fellow chem-cult members to be the miserable lairs you know yourself to be.

Yes, you are inwardly jealous of the freedom I have to say what I really feel, you are jealous of the freedom I have that you don't enjoy, the freedom that only speaking the truth can give. What digs you worst of all is that you do have a conscience, and it is saying exactly what I am saying.

That is why you revel in my banning, you cringe when your hypocrisy is exposed, and you misplace your hatred of yourself upon me,
because I speak what you think you cannot say.

But freedom is possible for anyone, even you, Deborah. You only need to speak the truth and a new world will open before you.

Expose the hoax for what you know it is, Deborah.
Expose the old lars like A.C Griffith your buddy who started the "barium in chemtrails" hoax. Expose Carnicom for the mentally ill sicko he really is.
Expose William Thomas, Chem11, and all the rest of the liars you know so well.

Get over it.
Get out of it.
Start now the sooner to be free- end the hoax.

[jayreynolds]

Adolf Hitler: "Mein Kampf", Houghton-Mifflin, New York, p.118
Raynolds/Ben-Hur note well!

I note your megalomania is nearly complete, Wayne. You are now openly quoting the madman Hitler, making his words your own.

Sorry, Hitlerian rhetoric won't cover for you, Wayne. You may be mad, but you are no Adolph Hiter, however much you may hope to move the world of men. You are a pitiful excuse for human being, a featherweight in a hurricane, a grain of sand on the beach, helpless against the tide of truth.

I see you have adopted yet another orphan 'whistlebunker'.
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6686
When will you ever learn?

[halva]

Ironic indeed, Deborah. When I click on the above URLs each and every one, without exception, leads me to the same screen which says:
"YOU ARE BANNED FROM THIS COMMUNITY"..

That is extremely good news, and confirms what I said a couple of postings ago, that the desperation with which you cling to the "Jay Reynolds" identity here and to attempting to debate with me in particular, is a reflection of how marginal and threatened a species you have become. The fact is that there is no longer any need for your particular style of debunking, even among those who are throwing up smokescreens. The "it's for your own good" line is coming in, in a big way.

It is unfortunate that Footsoldier has reopened the substantial debate with you. I have been trying to persuade her for a long time to withdraw entirely from this thread and devote all the energy she is investing in this subject to discussion and research in an environment that is free from disturbance by you and your pitiful hangers-on.

Regrettably, Footsoldier is too attached to liberal-democratic ideals to understand that extending freedom of speech to individuals of dubious and ambiguous identity such as yourself is not only inadvisable but in fact inadmissible.

I suspect that "Jay Reynolds" is shortly going to be dispensible even as an alter ego and cover for the Islamic subversive Dr. Judah Ben-Hur. "Reynolds'" prestige in his own peer group will have sunk so low that the "Reynolds" identity will no longer be useful to Dr. Ben-Hur in any way.

[gaiacomm]

Jay;

You seek independent verification on me then I suggest you contact any special agent with either the CIA, FBI, NSA, or Secret Service. Contact the head offices and ask for verification of Dr. Judah Ben-Hur. Make sure you tell them its the Dr. that calls for Regime Change within the USA and Project Tesla. I would love to be a fly on the wall!

You seem to contact everyone else so whats the difference?

Gotcha....your move!


Oh yes one more thing JR, Be careful what you wish for....

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Wayne, your latest fiction isn't going to be available at 'Blockbuster' anytime soon, eh?

"And amidst all this impending doom, the probable end of Life on Earth (and the solar sytem itself as we know it), the author somehow finds the time to get worked up about how "draconian" the Kyoto Protocol is...? He's going to be living fifty miles below the surface fretting over how his Boeing stocks are tanking because the airline industry is suffering bcause of Kyoto?"
http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=technosphere&action=display&num=1090128906

"Sorry, I'm very skeptical of the source, and the solution."
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6686

Seems like some chemmie would take it upon him/herself and track down the source of this misinformation and expose it, since it comes directly from a frequent poster at Carnicom's. Oh, well, THAT would be far too logical, and expose the chemmie who likely has skeletons of his/her own. How am I doing, Deborah?
ha!.

[foot_soldier]

10/29/2000

THE OZONE LAYER: NOT A FUTURE CRISIS

THE NEED FOR ACTION NOW

by Keith C. Heidorn, Ph.D., ACM

E-mail: ub451@freenet.victoria.bc.ca
1930 Venross Place, RR#1
Saanichton, BC V0S 1M0
(604) 652-8436

http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailsstratosphericandtroposphericozoneresear ch.showMessage?topicID=34.topic



Reynolds:

Fuck off.

[halva]

It is not mere personal stubbornness that keeps me posting here.

It is true that at some point earlier in the “debate”, when Sore Throat dropped out and it was more or less only Foot Soldier and Show Me Truth that were still making worthwhile postings I did start telling people to leave the thread and leave me to merely spam in foreign languages and so on, as I proposed.

For a long time Foot Soldier appeared unwilling to take this advice and continued making some very worthwhile postings, mostly references and links but nevertheless valuable.

From the beginning I have been unwilling to answer Raynolds’ questions and I did not ask him to answer them either. Gaiacomm did that, partly in order to give the false impression that he and Raynolds are not the same person. In fact I am not interested either in Raynolds' questions or in his answers.

I did ask him three questions of my own. This was his response to the first of them:

Question:
"1. Why do you play the self-appointed intermediary between "chemmies" and environmental scientists, given your claim that scientists are anyway perfectly capable of protecting themselves from the contagion of what you identify as "chemmie" viewpoints?"

Answer: Well, Wayne, I do it because I damn well feel like doing it, and there isn't a hell of a lot you can do about it, so bugger off and eat this, slag-boy.

Raynolds then attached extracts from a letter he wrote to the Tyndall Centre, making it clear that his intentions were to disrupt the dialogue we had initiated with them and frighten climate scientists away from talking to us, on any subject, those they were already debating, those that only we had expressed interest in, or those of mutual interest.

He failed in this.

Raynolds' whole stance on this thread resembles that of the Defense Department official rubbing it in to the Gulf War veteran that he cannot prove his cancer was caused by exposure to depleted uranium munitions. Sadism, in other words. The veteran in such an instance, being a petitioner, has to continue the dialogue with the official if he wants to keep petitioning.

But we are not in any such relation to Raynolds. We are asking nothing of him. He has nothing he can give us our deny us. Why should any of us be interested in giving him even the time of day?

Coming back to what I said at the beginning that it is not mere stubbornness that keeps me posting here: This thread is on the Arianna Huffington forum, Arianna Huffington being a politician who operates on the basis of the ground rules of liberal democracy, which attaches great importance to freedom of speech, privileging it over other values. It is arguably a matter of principle for a politican working within such a framework that public debate leave itself open to disruption and disorganization by people such as Raynolds.

Personally I do not think it is right that liberal democracy should enjoy a monopoly, that it should be the only kind of politics that people have the right to choose as a system by which they are governed. If one does not believe that freedom of speech is a supreme value that may override all other values, it should be possible to make a political choice that reflects this belief.

I acknowledge that Arianna Huffington has not been won over to conceptions of this kind. Therefore, apart from stubbornness, I remain here as a reminder of the conceptions, and the demand.

I reiterate that I am not going to attempt to answer any question asked by Raynolds/Judah Ben-Hur/Gaiacomm.

Nor am I going to respond to any comment.

[halva]

Raynolds/Ben-Hur!!

Ben-Hur/Raynolds still seems to be interested in dialogue.

Try talking to yourself.

[jayreynolds]

Deborah, you really need to reread what I wrote and take it to your heart.
I know that the evil inside you hates me only because I speak out loud what your own conscience tells you inside. Only you can make it right.



Ironic indeed, Deborah. When I click on the above URLs each and every one, without exception, leads me to the same screen which says:
"YOU ARE BANNED FROM THIS COMMUNITY".

And you have the gall to say I suppress you?

I do know what the contents of those thousands of posts, which you have made with no suppression from me! are, however.

They are simple copy/pastes from the work of other people, monkey work, the sure sign of a simpleton unable to think for herself. A lame attempt at imputing something, but never really getting down to facts, because the facts show that for all your propaganda, what scientists like Dr. Sarah Cornell REALLY say is that the demon which you serve, the "chemtrail" hoax, is just a falsity, a "speculation", or, as she put it:

"and the net effects[of ordinary contrails] globally are uncertain or indeterminate.
Secondly, there is no evidence at all in the atmospheric chemistry
that chemically altered emissions are being generated."

Compare the scientist's remarks to what Deborah preached four years ago:

"I feel that the "contrails" we are now seeing are a "litmus test" of current atmospheric conditions and are showing us VERY CLEARLY that atmospheric chemistry is seriously altered."

Sounds like you've been debunked once again, Deborah, despite your 1000's of hysterical cut/pastes!

So, the facts show that I haven't suppressed Deborah at all, she is able to post thousands of times at Carnicom's board with nary a problem, but the result of all that wasted effort has been absolutely nil on the scientifc community!

Deborah, what really got your claws out was that it was exposed that you don't really believe in all those thousands of posts, that they were all a waste, that you don't really believe in the hoax anymore, and that to really be honest, you would have to become a debunker like me and expose your fellow chem-cult members to be the miserable lairs you know yourself to be.

Yes, you are inwardly jealous of the freedom I have to say what I really feel, you are jealous of the freedom I have that you don't enjoy, the freedom that only speaking the truth can give. What digs you worst of all is that you do have a conscience, and it is saying exactly what I am saying.

That is why you revel in my banning, you cringe when your hypocrisy is exposed, and you misplace your hatred of yourself upon me,
because I speak what you think you cannot say.

But freedom is possible for anyone, even you, Deborah. You only need to speak the truth and a new world will open before you.

Expose the hoax for what you know it is, Deborah.
Expose the old lars like A.C Griffith your buddy who started the "barium in chemtrails" hoax. Expose Carnicom for the mentally ill sicko he really is.
Expose William Thomas, Chem11, and all the rest of the liars you know so well.

Get over it.
Get out of it.
Start now the sooner to be free- end the hoax.

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Wayne Hall. For some time you have been touting Gabriel Stetter as a fine representative of your cult, despite his(preposterous) insistence that ordinary contrails can only form at temperatures below -76F.

Here is a challenge to those of you in yerp, and your new messiah Stetter:

Present your claims before the largest body of aerosol scientists in the world this September 6-10, in Budapest at the
European Aerosol Conference.
http://www.aeroszol.hu/conference/

CONFERENCE TOPICS
Aerosol chemistry
Aerosol instrumentation
Aerosol modelling
Aerosol standards
Atmospheric aerosols
Bioaerosols
Combustion aerosols
Fundamental aerosol physics
Health aspects of aerosols
Indoor aerosols
Industrial aerosols
Nanoparticles
PM10/PM2.5
Radioactive aerosols


The Greek representative to the conference, Athanasios G. Konstandopoulos, would be a logical choice to review your presentation before travelling all the way to Budapest only to be rejected, Wayne.
http://cornelius.cperi.certh.gr/html/people/agk.htm

It's always best to be rejected at home rather than face international degradation!

[jayreynolds]

Looking further at the work of the Aerosol and Particle Technology Laboratory there in Thessaloniki, Greece, it would seem logical that Wayne accept a challenge to speak with these people and in conjunction with his supposed friend 'Dr. Nikos Katsaros', conduct atmospheric analysis to determine whether, or not, there is any validity to the chemtrail claims.
http://cornelius.cperi.certh.gr/

There is NO DOUBT that the equipment and expertise available at that facility would be able, if indeed any such "chemtrails" exist, to detect even nano-particulates in the air of Greece.

[u]In fact, most likely such tests to establish 'background ambient conditions' are likely conducted as a routine part of all experiments.[/u

I hereby challenge halva to provide such data or admit he has no factual basis for his claims whatsoever. Failure to accept the challenge is yet again prima-facie evidence that he laready knows that he is participating in a hoax and fears exposure by the facts.

Just look at the equipment available:
http://cornelius.cperi.certh.gr/html/facilities.htm
State-of-the-art facilities belong to the group and are employed for its research tasks:

Engine dynamometer facility (Test cell)

Modern Common-rail, 1.9 Lt diesel engine
Small and full scale emission control testing units

Ceramic filter and membrane testing unit for hot gas clean-up

Sprays and atomization nozzle characterization rig

Lab scale aerosol reactor and catalytic coating development rig

Pilot Aerosol Spray Pyrolysis unit (ASP)

Pilot reactor for Self-Propagating High-Temperature Synthesis (SHS) of ceramic powders

Gaseous emissions analyzers

CO, CO2, O2, NOx, HC engine exhaust analyzers (Horiba MEXA 7400D)
Dual NOx analyzer (Ecophysics)
CO, CO2 (Horiba), NOx (TEI) analyzers
O2 analyzer (Beckman 755)
Fast Mass Spectrometer for Exhaust Gas Analysis (Airsense 2000, V&F)
Quadruple Mass Spectrometer (Omnistar TM, Pfeiffer)

Aerosol and particle measurement (3 nm to 1000 mm) and generation instrumentation

Combustion Aerosol Standard (CAST, Matter Engineering)
Phase-Doppler Analyser with Ar-ion laser (Dantec)
Aerosizer & Aerodisperser (Amherst Process Instruments)
Single Particle Counter Sizer Velocimeter (PCSV-Process Metrix)
Scanning Mobility Particle Sizer (SMPS 3936, TSI)
Electric Low Pressure Impactor (ELPI, Dekati)
Differential Mobility Analyzer (DMA-Vienna type)
Nano-DMA (Yale U. /U. Malaga/CIEMAT design)
Condensation Particle Counter (CPC 3022, CPC 3025A, TSI)
Long Path Multiwavelength Extinction sensor (LPME, Wizard Zahoransky)
Photoelectric Aerosol Sensor and Diffusion Charger (PAS/DC) (NanoMet system, Matter Engineering)
Ultrasonic Nebulizer (Omron)
Electrospray droplet generator
Mini-dilution tunnels for exhaust sampling

Advanced high-speed infrared camera system (FLIR SC2000)

Modular Compact Rheometer (MCR 100, Physica)

Biological cell exposure facility for diesel emissions

Commercial and in-house developed simulation software (CFD, FEM, discrete particle dynamics) in serial and parallel implementations

Linux computational clusters (one 16-node fast-Ethernet and one 8-node Myrinet based)

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Wayne, your latest fiction isn't going to be available at 'Blockbuster' anytime soon, eh?

"And amidst all this impending doom, the probable end of Life on Earth (and the solar sytem itself as we know it), the author somehow finds the time to get worked up about how "draconian" the Kyoto Protocol is...? He's going to be living fifty miles below the surface fretting over how his Boeing stocks are tanking because the airline industry is suffering bcause of Kyoto?"
http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=technosphere&action=display&num=1090128906

"Sorry, I'm very skeptical of the source, and the solution."
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6686

Seems like some chemmie would take it upon him/herself and track down the source of this misinformation and expose it, since it comes directly from a frequent poster at Carnicom's. Oh, well, THAT would be far too logical, and expose the chemmie who likely has skeletons of his/her own. How am I doing, Deborah?
ha!.

Ok, tracking this down, Holmestead says he got it from Marjorie Teitjin(daystar1952), who was postiing as long ago as 2001 on the Carnicom exboard forum. Holmestaed doesn't say which forum she posted at.

"Later that same day (7 July 2004)[5:41 pm] Marjorie posted in a forum a lengthy response that she had already received from a reader of the Rense article. And as she said there: "I'm not sure if he/she is an 'insider' or just a researcher." But, may I add, he/she certainly appears to be a student of film! "

This person, whose identity 'Marjorie' doesn't disclose, says, "Several months ago I met a flight engineer who is a regular crew member aboard a re-fitted U.S. Air Force Boeing aircraft that is part of the aerosol mission out of Edwards. I will call him “Roger Anderson,” although that is not his real name. He is a friend of a friend of mine who works in chemical engineering. Anderson was quite frank with me after I divulged to him all I knew at that point about the history and mission of chemtrails. We were sitting in the corner of an almost deserted BBQ restaurant in the city of Simi Valley, California."

Ok, so allegedly this person who Marjorie withholds the name of, calims to know a pilot who flies a "chemtrail" plane, but uses a pseudonym for him.

There you have it, folks. Two choices, true or false?

Some chemmie needs to begin tracking down the sources, because if true, this chain of deception leads directly to the source of your claims. If false, it leads directly to the source of your deception. Either way, if you folks are truly interested in answers, you need to know.

So bring it on.

[halva]

We have achieved our essential objective of establishing a parallel framework for serious scientific discussion free from the noise of 'divide and rule' strategies whose aim is to maximise antagonism, mutual distrust, mutual stereotyping, misunderstanding and suspicion between chemtrail activists and climate scientists.

We will allow Raynolds/Ben-Hur to continue his dialogue with Ben-Hur/Raynolds here. He will keep going forever, because there is nowhere else other than this thread that he is allowed to post, ANYWHERE, so he is very motivated to keep convincing himself that he EXISTS.

This does not mean the thread will not be monitored, with possible intervention if it is necessary to come in to deal with other possible noise here other than the noise of Raynolds/Ben-Hur TALKING TO HIMSELF.

[gaiacomm]

Here we go round the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, here we go round the mulberry bush so early in the morning!

[jayreynolds]

We have achieved our essential objective of establishing a parallel framework for serious scientific discussion free from the noise of 'divide and rule' strategies whose aim is to maximise antagonism, mutual distrust, mutual stereotyping, misunderstanding and suspicion between chemtrail activists and climate scientists.

Translation:

"We have abandoned all pretense of having free and open public debate as we originally called for on page 1 of this thread. This has been necessary because we were unable to match wits with the opposition and were unable to implement totalitarian measures or coverup strategies. We have instead retreated to a "chemtrail believer's only forum at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ama_lahi/

This forum has restricted membership, and not only are non-members not allowed to post, they are also enied access to even read what is being said. there has been a total of 1(one) new post on the forum this week, and nine postings so far this month. Nevermind that this forum was originally dsignated a "direct democracy" forum, it is now unabashedly a closed society of like-minded automatons, all pretense to democracy has been abandoned.

There will be no mistrust as no one will be allowed to distrust anyone else. There will be no antagonism because we will all think exactly alike. There will be no stereotyping or misunderstanding between members because we are all exact copies of each other and no deviation in thought, word, or deed is allowed. There will be no suspicion allowed within the membership, suspicion is reserved for Party leadership only. party leadership is supplied by Wayne Hall, forum owner, who reserves the right to ban anyone, for any reason, at any time he so pleases. Welcome to the New World Order."

[gaiacomm]

Here we go round the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, here we go round the mulberry bush so early in the morning!

[jayreynolds]

revealing poll over at chemtrailcentral.com:
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6702

I had to laugh my ass off when I saw "chem11"(AKA. Val Valerian) try to buly the site owner
'Thermit'(Mark Steadham) about his claim that "chemtrails" were for biological innoculation.
'Chem11' wrote:
"And who the hell voted for biological innoculation..??? REVEAL YOURSELF!!"

Mark Steadham wrote:
"I voted for it old Chem-Boy, and there's nothing you and your ugly little rubusto-smoking insult puppy can do about it, now, is there?
--------------------------------
Chem11 is such a dumbass. Here are the facts of the matter. despite a veneer of logic and science put forward by chemmies, in the end you have to be a wack-job to remain in the cult, and Mark Steadham is no exception.

Steadham's belief comes, not from any empirical or logical basis at all, but from both a mentally ill cult leader who claims to channel aliens from Zeta reticuli, Nancy Leider, and a $90 per hour(Visa, MC accepted) telephone psychic named Michele Mayama.

What's that, you say you don't believe me?
I never asked you to, check it out for yourself!
-----------------------------
Well, let's let mark Steadham speak for himself:
Here is the current version of a webpage from chemtrailcentral titled "Channelling":
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/channel.shtml
[Note to Mark, she says we will see chemical warfare in five years. What will you do next year when she is proven wrong?]
----------------------------
Well, there is nothing there that says Mark Steadham buys into this channelling crap, say you?
There is nothing at all about the now totally discredited Nancy Leider and "Zeta reticuli" there at all!
No, not exactly, I'll admit.
But there was a previous version of that webpage, a version which was purposely altered after Mark steadham slipped up in a moment of mirth among his fellow wingnuts, more on that later....
-----------------------------
Here is an archived version of Steadham's original webpage, courtesy of the "Wayback Machine", and the text which Steadham has now deleted from the current version:
http://web.archive.org/web/20000823070819/http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/channel.shtml

"In our quest to understand what is occurring regarding Chemtrails, we need to collect information from all potential sources. Channeling provides a unique source of information, as the information is, by definition, channeled from somewhere beyond our normal frame of reality."
"The value of channeled information is dependant upon two main factors: the objective quality of the reception of the information stream and the subjective content of that information stream. Just because you have a great connection, doesn't mean that what you are receiving is good, so discernment upon channeled texts must be judiciously applied.

Presented below are two channeled commentaries on Chemtrails. Research of the two different sources and their library of channelings, indicates that both channels are of a high quality. The value of the content is a subjective matter and must be judged individually."

"ZetaTalk
The ZetaTalk website is produced by Nancy, the Zeta Emissary. The Zetas, also known as Greys, are from the star system of, what we call, Zeta Reticuli. Nancy remembers personal visitations by the Zetas beginning in early childhood and this relationship has grown and she now is their emissary. The impressive large body of work available at the ZetaTalk site discusses, among other things, Zetan relationships with Humans, the concepts of Service-to-Self vs. Service-to-Others, and an impending world-wide cataclysm to strike May 2003."
--------------------------------------------
Note that Nancy Leider made the fatal mistake of setting a near-future date for her prognosication. When May 2003 came and went with no such "cataclysm", her cult disintegrated.
--------------------------------------------
Now, still, this doesn't prove that Mark Steadham always believed what these charlatans were saying, perhaps he just recently decided that "chemtrails" were a form of biological innoculation.
Like I have always said, don't believe me, see for yourselves:
"My Theory" by Mark Steadham, FOUR YEARS AGO-
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5
"I think that certain people high in the intellegence organizations and military, and other very wealthy people are attempting to prevent a biological attack by using aerial inoculations. I don't think the government wants to hurt us, I think they are trying to help or at least maintain the status quo, but I don't trust they know 100% what they are doing with this biological experiment they are performing. And also what is the price of this 'protection' that appears to make many ill? "
--------------------------------------
Not enough yet?
Steadham speaks out again-
"I do sincerely believe that the government is attempting to protect it's citizens from the most horrific weapons of the modern world, biological weapons. There is much evidence that they are interested in doing this."
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=62248&highlight=#62248
--------------------------------
And finally the icing on the cake, this revealing little thread speaks volumes about many of chemtrailcentral's most proliifc posters' daliance from reason into the woo-woo world of aliens.
I note that this thread has undergone significant and covert after-the-fact editing in the years since it's creation, to coverup text the participants don't wish you to see. You may view the archived version and see the difference;
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000016.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20010423002159/http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000016.html
---------------------------------
So, there you have it, a little glimpse into the whacko world of chemmies, complete with coverups and skillful edits to hide what THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO SEE. A history lesson for all, new and old, into just who and what we are dealing with........

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Wayne, I see you have had one new message over at your "Secret College" of chem-cult members. Woooooooo!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ama_lahi/
regards,
jay

[gaiacomm]

Here we go round the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, here we go round the mulberry bush so early in the morning!

[halva]

Catherine Austin Fitts
at the
Boston Social Forum

When: Friday July 23rd and Saturday July 24th

Where: University of Massachusetts at Boston

A forum within the World Social Forum process, the Boston Social Forum has been called to help progressive activists to begin to answer some very basic questions: What kind of future do we want for Boston? For our region? For our nation? For the world? What is our vision of a better society? The BSF is a 3-day forum convening July 23-25, 2004 just prior to the Democratic National Convention.

For further details:
http://www.bostonsocialforum.org/
http://www.othereconomies.org

Catherine is participating in three events:

I. Panel: Cooperative Capital: Innovative Models for Reclaiming Our Economies

When: Friday, July 23rd, 3:00-4:30pm

Where: Wheatley 158

Catherine Austin Fitts
Solari, Inc.

Michael Garjian
E2M Project
http://www.e2m.org

Ethan Mitchell
Vermont Mutual Aid Fund

Moderator: Ethan Miller

II. Panel: Dirty Money with Lucy Komisar*

When: Saturday July 24th 8:30-10am ET

Where: University of Massachusetts at Boston, Wheatley 158

*About Lucy Komisar
Investigative journalist and author on international policy issues, with special expertise on offshore bank and corporate secrecy and on human rights policy; member Council on Foreign Relations; theater critic; member Drama Desk (New York). Formerly: John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur grantee, John Simon Guggenheim fellow. Author: Corazon Aquino: The Story of a Revolution; Down and Out in the USA: A History of Public Welfare; The New Feminism. Articles on political subjects from about 40 countries for the major U.S. newspapers. Strategic briefing paper for the Rockefeller Foundation on how to approach the human rights situation in South Korea (1995). Lecturer at New School for Social Research, NYC, on "Foreign Political Conflicts and Struggles for Democracy." Radio Commentator for "In The Public Interest."

III. Workshop: Reengineering Our Community Economies: Taking Back Our Wealth

How do we reverse the financial drain in our communities, including the real deal of "dirty money" and the related politics and risks? This highly interactive workshop by Catherine is designed to explore options with folks interested in hands on efforts -- both those who want to take information actions as individuals or clubs as well as those with entreprenurial experience interested in full time action. The focus is on US communities but global discussions and comparisons will be welcome.

When: Saturday July 24th 1:00-3:00pm ET

Where: Science 63/Science Center

To Post Comments or Questions:
http://www.solariactionnetwork.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1245

[jayreynolds]

*About Lucy Komisar
Investigative journalist and author on international policy issues, with special expertise on offshore bank and corporate secrecy and on human rights policy; member Council on Foreign Relations

Leave it to Wayne Hall to suggest that we listen to the lies of a member of one of the most reviled clubs of the American oligarchy.........

[jayreynolds]

Oh, me oh, my. Looks like 'Thermit' has finally grown tired of Billder the Bold posting his pseudoscience tripe in the 'CT Science' foum at Chemtrailcentral.
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6704
You can bet that sort of hyped up nonsense which in the end discredits more than it aids the cult wasn't going unnoticed. Secret emails and PMs likely flew begging 'someone' to do something about the insanity.
I notice Throat and Deborah have been silent.......
They know.........
Their nest will have to go..........
"Basically, cut-and-paste articles aren't appropriate in this forum, new topics should represent some effort in research, documentation, and presentation."
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5937

[jayreynolds]

Remember last week on the chemtrail-cult messageboard "chemtrailtrackingusa', a member asked to see tangible proof that "chemtrails" were something other than ordinary contrails?
That person was banned and told to go do thgeir own research.

Remember the week before, the question came up as to why chemmies haven't in five years made a real attempt to obtain a sample and analysis of a purported "chemtrail"?

Well, it's plain that no proof is available to show anyone skeptical, because none exists, and no attempt at getting proof will ever be paid for by "chemtrail" believers. Plenty of money for internet subscriptions, new computers, and the sundry things that make a person happy, but none to prove one way or another about their claims, right?

Just another example of chemmie hyocrisy is this blatant advertisement by Dona Terry, the banmistress of CTTUSA, selling of all things, coffee cups underb the guise of being-
EDUCATIONAL MATERIALS!!!!!

But don't believe me, see for yourself-
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/message/113884

[jayreynolds]

Go figure. Now that money has entered the picture, chemmies are at each other's throats screaming about lawsuits, people stealing each others ideas of how to milk somebody out of
$15.00 for a $1.00 T-shirt.

Don't believe me, see it for yourselves:
-----------------------------
"What has me kind of tweaked is that the whole "guinea pig" and
"chemtrail" connection was my invention back in March of 2000. There
are a variety of ways to communicate the chemtrail message. Why did
they have to steal my method?

I could easily sue under section 43(a) of the Lanham Act for
violation of my design (using a guinea pig in chemtrail context) but
I won't. I would like the "creator" of the shirt to quit using it,
and to come up with their own idea to continue spreading the word
about chemtrails.
I wasn't asking a big price ($10) for my custom T-shirt. I donated
many more of them than I sold. When it first came out, I charged $15
and donated $5 from each shirt sold to Will Thomas. It just doesn't
seem right to me that a company who obviously was exposed to my
design would use the same concept and not even ask my permission.
There. I've said my piece."
MediaMike, Phoenix
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/message/113912
---------------------------------------
"Media Mike, you said your piece. I am going to say mine.
Your comments are silly. Are you saying you were the FIRST person to
say we are being used as guinea pigs because of the spraying? How
ridiculous. Everyone involved in this chemtrail research has used the
term "guinea pig" at one time or another, and certainly at least a
year before you got into this arena. You don't have a patent on
refering to a guinea pig in a chemtrail context, for Pete's sake. It
is not anything you "created". It is figure of speech.

Your tactics are so divisive, to begrudge the point. Instead,
couldn't you please be happy that the chemtrail activity is getting
some attention? And be willing to share in the effort and in the $$$
profit? People don't manufacture products without a profit motive. No
one has "copied you" by saying we are being used as guinea pigs. We
ARE! It isn't a stretch to come up with that comparison.

This is EXACTLY why I shy away from allowing sales promotions in this
Group. Greed rears its ugly head. And one hawker starts complaining
about another's products. It wastes everybody's good time. Ugh!
Dona, aka i_dont_chat"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/message/113912
The above comment was by Dona Terry, who only yesterday was hawking
"chemtrail" coffee mugs!
Money-grubbing chemmie hypocrites.

[halva]

,,,,,,,,,,scientific discussion free from the noise of 'divide and rule' strategies whose aim is to maximise antagonism, mutual distrust, mutual stereotyping, misunderstanding and suspicion between chemtrail activists and climate scientists.

Raynolds/Ben-Hur will continue his dialogue with Ben-Hur/Raynolds here forever, because there is nowhere else other than this thread that he is allowed to post, ANYWHERE, so he is very motivated to keep convincing himself that he EXISTS.

[gaiacomm]

Wayne:

I find your thoughts quite interesting. JR and I are two very different people but if it makes you feel better to keep us the same thats fine. JR does it with Lance and I.

Keep up your work. Keep in mind that the data that JR posts is of public knowledge and does nothing to help the cause. What you need is what JR does not have access to. You notice that nobody touches this subject? Good reason. The truth hurts and some people will go to jail!

[jayreynolds]

Uh, oh, Wayne. Jay has a lot of time on his hands now that you've run away. It's a dangerous thing, leaving him looking for things to do..........

To: GWUP http://www.gwup.org/
From: Jay Reynolds

Dear Sirs,
I am an American who has written extensively about a new pseudoscience subject called "Chemtrails", which is currently being discussed in the Swiss and German press:
http://cropfm.mur.at/sendung_chemtrails.htm

"Chemtrails" of course, are simply ordinary contrails(kondensstriefen).

My own skeptical website on "chemtrails', is here:
http://worldzone.net/science/reality2u30/

I would like your help in making contact with one of your 700 members in Germany or Switzerland which can bring my five years experience with this material to your people.
I would especially enjoy contacts with experience in meteorology, aviation, or physical science, and a contact within Basel, Switzerland, the home town of Gabriel Stetter, a promoter of the "chemtrails" hoax.

My intent is to arrange interviews, speaking engagements, and both website and paper publishing in German.

Can you help me?

Best regards,
Jay Reynolds

[halva]

Go for your life. With any luck you may find things boomeranging for you in Switzerland and Germany as they did in Greece.

I have not heard Gabriel Stetter say so much as one word about you.

[gaiacomm]

Uh, oh, Wayne. Jay has a lot of time on his hands now that you've run away. It's a dangerous thing, leaving him looking for things to do..........

To: GWUP http://www.gwup.org/
From: Jay Reynolds

Dear Sirs,
I am an American who has written extensively about a new pseudoscience subject called "Chemtrails", which is currently being discussed in the Swiss and German press:
http://cropfm.mur.at/sendung_chemtrails.htm

"Chemtrails" of course, are simply ordinary contrails(kondensstriefen).

My own skeptical website on "chemtrails', is here:
http://worldzone.net/science/reality2u30/

I would like your help in making contact with one of your 700 members in Germany or Switzerland which can bring my five years experience with this material to your people.
I would especially enjoy contacts with experience in meteorology, aviation, or physical science, and a contact within Basel, Switzerland, the home town of Gabriel Stetter, a promoter of the "chemtrails" hoax.

My intent is to arrange interviews, speaking engagements, and both website and paper publishing in German.

Can you help me?

Best regards,
Jay Reynolds


JR sure wants to make MO Money!

[jayreynolds]

Go for your life. With any luck you may find things boomeranging for you in Switzerland and Germany as they did in Greece.

I have not heard Gabriel Stetter say so much as one word about you.

Things always go right for me, Wayne, because I'm doing the right thing.

However, let's examine how things went with you in Greece and elsewhere.

You began boasting about how Greenpeace, Tyndall Centre, Dr. Christos Zerefos and Dr. Nikos Katsaros were on your side in support of your claim that contrails were actually "chemtrails".

Well, months are gone now and not a word from Greenpeace, they have abandoned you.

Tyndall centre flat out said that "chemtrails" don't exist, and that the only practical method of geoengineering is CO2 sequestration.

Dr. Christos Zerefos replied directly to me saying, "I never stated that chemtrails frame over Greece are coming from military jets using aluminum oxides. Contrails usually seen in the cloudless Greek skies are of course results of contrails."

Dr. Nikos Katsaros replied directly to my inquiry, saying, "Dear Mr. Reynolds, As you probably know there is no scientific evidence whatsoever concerning chemtrails and there composition."

So just who supports you in Greece, Wayne, other than the face you see in your mirror?
You've already admitted even your wife doesn't believe in "chemtrails"!

As for Gabriel Stetter, better get him reading these 230 pages, so's he gets an idea of the nightmares which are soon to beset him. He needs to get back to the simple work he's suited for like reshelving books at the library, if he knows what's good for him...........

[halva]

This thread is on the Arianna Huffington forum, Arianna Huffington being a politician who operates on the basis of the ground rules of liberal democracy, which attaches great importance to freedom of speech, privileging it over other values. It is arguably a matter of principle for a politican working within such a framework that public debate leave itself open to disruption and disorganization by people such as Raynolds.

Personally I do not think it is right that liberal democracy should enjoy a monopoly, that it should be the only kind of politics that people have the right to choose as a system by which they are governed. If one does not believe that freedom of speech is a supreme value that may override all other values, it should be possible to make a political choice that reflects this belief.

I acknowledge that Arianna Huffington has not been won over to conceptions of this kind. Therefore, apart from stubbornness, I remain here as a reminder of the conceptions, and the demand.

[hoot]

Hi, new here and so am just going to post a small message to see how it tests out. I can see that this board is filled with some mighty $$$$wordsmiths(looks like a GS17-18 and his whole sub-section from Langley : as per protocol 11) Sorry, i'm not sorry,i'm not one. Takenote i was drafted 11-2-65 and am a man of few words.~~~~Takecheer folks in that your efforts are deemed so very very dangerous to them - Remember the old saying about flak over the target!

[halva]

Raynolds' whole stance on this thread resembles that of the Defense Department official rubbing it in to the Gulf War veteran that he cannot prove his cancer was caused by exposure to depleted uranium munitions. Sadism, in other words. The veteran in such an instance, being a petitioner, has to continue the dialogue with the official if he wants to keep petitioning.

But we are not in any such relation to Raynolds.

[halva]

This thread is acquiring a new function: a testing ground for those seeking admission to Ama Lahi.

But the discussion at Ama Lahi is narrowly focused and may not suit everybody.

Those seeking to escape Reynolds and find useful information can go to Megasprayer and Chemtrail Central Forum also.

[jayreynolds]

Well, looks like 'ol lady Dona won't allow any mention of persistent contrails over at her shop.
Guess that means Deborah is out-o-business with those chemmies at CTTUSA!

But isn't she just doing her cause great harm, considering the wealth of reliable, confirmable, and documented scientific information out there? Surely, one day, her fellow chemmies will have to run up against such information and deal with it. It doesn't pay to hide the truth from your cult, Dona. You may be able to define reality any way you like on your little messageboard, and it seems you've deleted messages # 21,22, 28,32, 40, 44, 45,&46. But you simply have no control outside that narrow bandwidth, the truth exists outside your frequency, like it or not, Dona!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/message/113949

"The debate of persistent contrails VS chemtrails is not allowed here.
The persistent condensation trail lie is a tactic which is being used
to shut us up.
Please don't try again to post anything about persistent contrails.
If members want to research them, they can use their search engine.
i_dont_chat

[jayreynolds]

This thread is acquiring a new function: a testing ground for those seeking admission to Ama Lahi.

But the discussion at Ama Lahi is narrowly focused and may not suit everybody.

Those seeking to escape Reynolds and find useful information can go to Megasprayer and Chemtrail Central Forum also.

Hey, Wayne, your ama_lahi messageboard says:
"Ama lahi is a direct democracy discussion group continuing the dialogue begun on 24th June 2000 at the Ama Lahi taverna in Athens, Greece."

What is a "direct democracy" messageboard doing with such a closed membership that even non-members can't read what is being said?

Doesn't sound like "democracy" at all, and not even close to "direct democracy" at all.

I'll bet that even if members get in, they find out that no deviance from Wayne Hall's personal paradigms are allowed, that Wayne Hall isn't a direct democracy advocate at all, that he is a leftist totalitarian oligarch twit. probably this is why you only had two postings last week...........

and Wayne Hall made both of them!!!

[halva]

Months are gone now and not a word from Greenpeace, they have abandoned you.


We do not ask anyone to arbitrate between us and Greenpeace, other than the Social Forums, which both Greenpeace and ourselves constitute, and where your opinion would not be sought.

[jayreynolds]

Olympic Gawkers Gouged by Greedy Greeks
USAToday
7/27/04
ATHENS (AFP) — Some three dozen cafe and restaurant owners in Athens have been fined for price-gouging, after overcharging their customers by up to 500%, the Greek news agency ANA reported Wednesday........ More than a quarter of all restaurants checked violated the prices law — seven of the 37 establishments alone were at Athens airport. Owners have been hauled before court and fined for their practices, the news agency reported.
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2004-07-27-athens-gouging_x.htm
===============================
I would be remiss in not advising all to stay away from the Olympic Games. Security in Greece has always been abysmal. No amount of security cameras installed in July can make up for terrorist plots likely in place for months or years.

On a brighter note, the uplink I'm getting shows your movements quite clearly, Wayne.

Be sure to turn and smile for the camera whenever you can see the Zeppelin, old boy!

[jayreynolds]

We do not ask anyone to arbitrate between us and Greenpeace, other than the Social Forums, which both Greenpeace and ourselves constitute, and where your opinion would not be sought.

You mean the "Socialist Forums", right, Wayne?

For those not familiar, these are meetings where old-man trotskyites with beards types get to pretend they are 'activists' by making proclamations and such. I'm sure they are very popular in Greece, widely known overseas as "the last Communist nation in Europe".

But don't take my word for it. The Communist party is quite open about what they are doing over there, and Wayne simply cannot deny that he's running with the REDS.

Note the little flag in the upper "LEFT" corner????

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/530/esf.html
==========================
Oh, one last 'dig'. For all those 'global warming' hacks out there. I'm typing this morning in an overcoat, after sleeping under heavy covers. Record breaking cold weather in the US has brought temperatures down to nearly 40 degrees over the past two nights at the end of July.

If this is "global warming", bring it on!

[halva]

Social forums.


Catherine Austin Fitts
at the
Boston Social Forum

When: Friday July 23rd and Saturday July 24th

Where: University of Massachusetts at Boston

A forum within the World Social Forum process, the Boston Social Forum has been called to help progressive activists to begin to answer some very basic questions: What kind of future do we want for Boston? For our region? For our nation? For the world? What is our vision of a better society? The BSF is a 3-day forum convening July 23-25, 2004 just prior to the Democratic National Convention.

For further details:
http://www.bostonsocialforum.org/
http://www.othereconomies.org

Catherine is participating in three events:

I. Panel: Cooperative Capital: Innovative Models for Reclaiming Our Economies

When: Friday, July 23rd, 3:00-4:30pm

Where: Wheatley 158

Catherine Austin Fitts
Solari, Inc.

Michael Garjian
E2M Project
http://www.e2m.org

Ethan Mitchell
Vermont Mutual Aid Fund

Moderator: Ethan Miller

II. Panel: Dirty Money with Lucy Komisar*

When: Saturday July 24th 8:30-10am ET

Where: University of Massachusetts at Boston, Wheatley 158

*About Lucy Komisar
Investigative journalist and author on international policy issues, with special expertise on offshore bank and corporate secrecy and on human rights policy; member Council on Foreign Relations; theater critic; member Drama Desk (New York). Formerly: John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur grantee, John Simon Guggenheim fellow. Author: Corazon Aquino: The Story of a Revolution; Down and Out in the USA: A History of Public Welfare; The New Feminism. Articles on political subjects from about 40 countries for the major U.S. newspapers. Strategic briefing paper for the Rockefeller Foundation on how to approach the human rights situation in South Korea (1995). Lecturer at New School for Social Research, NYC, on "Foreign Political Conflicts and Struggles for Democracy." Radio Commentator for "In The Public Interest."

III. Workshop: Reengineering Our Community Economies: Taking Back Our Wealth

How do we reverse the financial drain in our communities, including the real deal of "dirty money" and the related politics and risks? This highly interactive workshop by Catherine is designed to explore options with folks interested in hands on efforts -- both those who want to take information actions as individuals or clubs as well as those with entreprenurial experience interested in full time action. The focus is on US communities but global discussions and comparisons will be welcome.

When: Saturday July 24th 1:00-3:00pm ET

Where: Science 63/Science Center

To Post Comments or Questions:
http://www.solariactionnetwork.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1245

[gaiacomm]

Hey JR and Wayne why don't we three get together and have some Earl Grey tea? I will buy the first round!

We seem to be the last ones so why not be friends and laugh about these posts. Maybe we can meet once a year and reflect!

[jayreynolds]

Social forums.
When: Saturday July 24th 1:00-3:00pm ET


Wayne, you are such a chemmie-commie idiot.
That particular forum is over, it was held three days ago.

Still, perusing the Boston Socialist Forum website, I note that the communist "Angela Davis" was scheduled to speak. For those who don't remember who she was, here's a bio:

Radical Black leader, author, and Communist. Davis was born on January 26, 1944, in Birmingham, Alabama. Her mother, Sallye E. Davis, had been politically active since her college days, and Angela participated in demonstrations with her mother from the time she was in elementary school. To insure her a better education, her parents sent her to Elizabeth Irwin High School, a private progressive school in New York. The school had many radical teachers and students, and Angela soon joined a Marxist study group.

Continuing to be a strong leader within the Communist Party USA, she ran for vice president alongside Communist presidential candidate Gus Hall in both the 1980 and 1984 elections. However, her ties with the Communist Party ended in 1991. During the Communist coup against reformer Mikhail Gorbachev that year, Davis sided with Gorbachev and subsequently left the party. She and her expelled comrades went on to work with the group Committees of Correspondence, which seeks to unite all radical socialist groups in the United States. She is still a member even today.

http://reds.linefeed.org/bios/davis.html
----------------------------------
I see that exposure of Wayne's connections with the Communists rattled him so much all he could do was spam the board with an irrelevant advertisement for yet another commie group, and for a meeting which has already come and gone!

Second, note that he cannot even attempt to distance himself from the REDS, because he knows he has been caught RED-HANDED.
Perhaps this was his intention al the time, posing as a 'direct-democracy' advocate to infiltrate the chemmies and turn some into commie pawns?

Nah, such subterfuge is far beyond his capabilities, but could someone else with brains have put him up to it?

Nah, someone with brains recognizes Wayne would eventually brag about it, he's not very good at keeping secrets.
He's also not very good at ignoring me, but then again I never gave him permission to, did I?
ha!

[halva]

Hey JR and Wayne why don't we three get together and have some Earl Grey tea? I will buy the first round!

We seem to be the last ones so why not be friends and laugh about these posts. Maybe we can meet once a year and reflect!

The three you refer to, I take it, are halva, Reynolds/Ben Hur and hoot.

Hoot says 'I have some good info on the "aerosol community" that I would like to spread around!!!'

[halva]

Wayne is not very good at keeping secrets. He's also not very good at ignoring me.
ha!

The only real question about the never-ending Reynolds/halva story is who loses more from it in terms of peer-group prestige and constructive use of time.

[hoot]

Here's a little "contrail" picture jr. http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/glakes/glakes.jpg Us poor hicks here in Michigan got used for the beta testing for this skat in the early 90's and THEY screwed-up and forgot to whipe all the satellite images from those early days. It was easy for THEM to fly up from Wright Patterson and test their spray patterns out over the Lakes out of gereral publicsight. The X sprayed with its center located 25 miles west of the Mackinaw Straits is used to gauge the spray dispersal rates and wind drifts from the satellite monitors. The town in Ontario, Esposa, that sued THEM for their poisoning in 1998, is located about 80 miles east downwind of the X that marks the center of this 150 mile by 150 mile band of 27+ parrallel "contrails"///// jr you'd best have your boss roast herr Minnus for this screw-up

[gaiacomm]

JR and Wayne lets go get a beer! I will buy the first round!

[halva]

You have to invite hoot too. Three's company, two's a crowd.

[gaiacomm]

You have to invite hoot too. Three's company, two's a crowd.


Ok, Hoot you can come to. Now we three must decide on when and where we meet each year to start our new friendship and drink a beer. Anywhere in the world is fine by me.

[jayreynolds]

Here's a little "contrail" picture jr. http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/glakes/glakes.jpg Us poor hicks here in Michigan got used for the beta testing for this skat in the early 90's and THEY screwed-up and forgot to whipe all the satellite images from those early days. It was easy for THEM to fly up from Wright Patterson and test their spray patterns out over the Lakes out of gereral publicsight. The X sprayed with its center located 25 miles west of the Mackinaw Straits is used to gauge the spray dispersal rates and wind drifts from the satellite monitors. The town in Ontario, Esposa, that sued THEM for their poisoning in 1998, is located about 80 miles east downwind of the X that marks the center of this 150 mile by 150 mile band of 27+ parrallel "contrails"///// jr you'd best have your boss roast herr Minnus for this screw-up

First of all, if you wish to be taken seriously, at least write as if you passed through sixth grade, Mr. Hoot. Evidently you aren't familiar with me. I don't necessarily take a chemmie's(or anyone else's) word for anything, and don't expect you to do the same with me. I make it a personal challenge to check things out for myself. In order to verify his claims, he needs to present some tangible evidence to back them up.
To wit:

Hoot appears to be making the claim that the picture he cites was taken "in the early '90's".
He is hereby challenged to submit evidence backing up his claim, otherwise it is unfounded.

He also claims that the contrails shown are not ordinary contrails, but rather are "spray patterns".
He is hereby challenged to submit evidence that they are something other than ordinary contrails, if none is presented, the claim remains unfounded..

He also claims that there is a town called "Esposa" in Ontario Province.
He is hereby challenged to present evidence that such a town exists. If none is presented, the claim that such a town exists cannot stand.

He also claims that this supposed town "sued THEM". Lawsuits require court filings. I hereby challenge him to identify the plaintiff, defendant, and venue for such a lawsuit, if it existed. If none is presented, the claim that such a suit ever existed is bogus.

I predict today, 7/28/04, that none of the above challenges will ever be met by any tangible documentation or physical evidence whatsoever.

I also predict that before one weeks time has passed, if he persists in debating me on this topic, Mr. 'Hoot' will be shown to be A FRAUD, A LIAR, AND AN ABSOLUTE FOOL

[gaiacomm]

Hoot:

Now you have met the Big Bad Wolf! Be careful of your data because JR and Company know the answers. You have to come up with something new...and by all means please do your homework before you take on JR and company!

[halva]

Thanks for helping out with screening hoot, Raynolds/Ben Hur.

[jayreynolds]

So where's the beef, 'hoot'?
Will you wither on the vine at just a few words from me?
Remember that a choice to not respond is an admission that it was all a lie, supported by nothing, worthless, and useless.

[gaiacomm]

So where's the beef, 'hoot'?
Will you wither on the vine at just a few words from me?
Remember that a choice to not respond is an admission that it was all a lie, supported by nothing, worthless, and useless.


Does that apply to my questions to you JR? Like Lance, etc.

[hoot]

hee hee hee me did boo-boo! _ town called Espanola for real! _me only know what me read in papers on WillThomas.net _me no like go places where bad men in black dress live!!! _me know herr Minus heap big false talker like liar moon men in silver suits in his nasaTRIBE_herr big chief Minnus has the big head problem like little chief jr_him callum first warparty in 93 MINNUS_him takum big sky pictures of him kills_him no hiddemm good http://gacp.giss.nasa.gov/campaigns/index.html ****** Hey guys i might take you up on that beer. Might i suggest an island off the coast of Belize in January? THEY are setting up Grove 2 there, hee hee hee this ones for the "ladies". Hear they had their first one this year. Plus one of my old hippie days stompping grounds is just south of there in Livingston .***** Could you help me find a site I lost last month in a crash? It was called Rantings of a Chemtrails Activist and address was something like trukola@tripod.com. Lots of good info with some great poetry about this situation .***** I'm going to start trolling for salmon soon on Lake Michigan realized a few months ago what the "fibers" are that have been fouling everybodys lines since the late 90's. Can send anyone a wad if they want something to test.

[gaiacomm]

Hoot:

I would like some of that fiber to test here in a lab in california.

[jayreynolds]

hee hee hee me did boo-boo! _ town called Espanola for real! _me only know what me read in papers on WillThomas.net _me no like go places where bad men in black dress live!!! _me know herr Minus heap big false talker like liar moon men in silver suits in his nasaTRIBE_herr big chief Minnus has the big head problem like little chief jr_him callum first warparty in 93 MINNUS_him takum big sky pictures of him kills_him no hiddemm good http://gacp.giss.nasa.gov/campaigns/index.html

As predicted, hoot proffered no evidence whatsoever for his claims.
He did, in an abstruse manner, identify a town which is in Ontario, but made no further mention or reference to the purported lawsuit, such a lawsuit never existed, or ever will. He appeared to base his claims on the website of William Thomas, the now-discredited "chemtrail" promoter.

In the challenged posting, 'hoot' referenced this image from a NASA website, saying,
http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/glakes/glakes.jpg
"Us poor hicks here in Michigan got used for the beta testing for this skat in the early 90's and THEY screwed-up and forgot to whipe all the satellite images from those early days.

NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH

The image, along with an extensive scientific paper, was presented at 2:15 pm on May 14, 2002, before a large audience in Portland, OR at the 10th Conference on Aviation, Range, and Aerospace Meteorology of theAmerican Meteorological Society. The paper was titled
"A STUDY OF CONTRAIL SPREADING OVER THE GREAT LAKES" with principal author, Dr. David P. Duda, Hampton University, Hampton, VA, with Dr. Patrick. Minnis of NASA and Dr. Rabindra Palikonda of AS&M, Inc..
http://ams.confex.com/ams/13ac10av/10ARAM/abstracts/39764.htm

The photo, and the associated research paper, far from being "whiped(sic) out" as claimed by 'hoot', was reported in 'Science News Online' and other publications.
http://www.phschool.com/science/science_news/articles/shutdown_of_airlines.html

The photo itself was taken by the SEAWIFS satellite, which was not launched until 1997, therefore the claim that it was "in the early nineties" is patently false.

So, 'hoot', all three of my predictions have come to fruition within 24 hours. You have been shown to be a FRAUD, A LIAR, AND AN ABSOLUTE FOOL!
I could add that you are an idiot for taking me on in the first place, but why belabor the point?
Next?

[jayreynolds]

Thanks for helping out with screening hoot, Raynolds/Ben Hur.

Hey, Wayne, as far as I can tell, this 'hoot' is a real hoot, and is extarordinarily
suited to join your 'House of Nuts" over there at Ama_Lahi. I can with confidence say that
you should push him for all he's worth.
After all, the scum rises to the top!
ha!

[gaiacomm]

Hey Hoot:

Don't worry about JR just get something that is new and somewhere where JR has not been before. Also don't forget to send us some fiber I will pay for shipping!

[gaiacomm]

Hoot:

Here is a little bio on JR:


Jay Reynolds was born in Dallas, Texas during the summer of 1955, and spent his childhood there. During that time, he developed a love of reading and observation. From an early age, he worked in the family business building municipal water systems and industrial buildings, and a working knowledge of many trades. His parents instilled in him a strong work ethic and moral values, and he became fluent in the Spanish language.


He attended the Texas Maritime Academy of Texas A&M University at Galveston, TX, graduating in 1977 with a Bachelor of Science degree in Marine Engineering. During that time, he was able to travel worldwide and qualified to become a Third Assistant Ship's Engineer, Steam/Diesel, Unlimited Horsepower.
His studies at the University included all engineering disciplines, with heavy emphasis on power generation and marine propulsion systems, and also oceanography, meteorology, and navigation.


After graduation, he received further training and became a Field Service Engineer for the General Electric Corporation, working on the Texas gulf coast providing technical direction in both construction and maintenance of large steam and gas turbines and shipboard engines. He also traveled widely in Central America. In 1979, seeking further opportunity, he moved to the island of St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands, and joined the Hess Oil Virgin Islands Corporation, where he was employed as a Gas Turbine Engineer and supervised maintenance of nine gas turbine power generators with waste heat recovery boilers at one of the world's largest oil refineries.


On St. Croix, and in subsequent travels around the Caribbean, he became an accomplished diver, spearfisherman, and sailor, and immersed himself in West Indian culture. Eventually, a home garden grew to become a full-time enterprise which was called "Blue Chips Farm", a farm which produced organically grown tropical fruits and vegetables. This operation, with the able assistance of his beautiful wife, Karen, was expanded when he developed a cannery operation to create gourmet quality preserves and sauces, which were marketed to the tourist trade. Blue Chips consistently won prizes at local fairs and their products were sold throughout the islands and by mail-order.

In 1989, Blue Chips was featured in Organic Gardening magazine for it's innovative system of alternating crop beds with permanent mulch generating strips thus supplying organic matter, mulch, reducing erosion, and slowing evapotranspiration. During off seasons, Jay continued his engineering work off the farm as Port Engineer for General Offshore Corporation, which performed quality control testing of U.S. Navy antisubmarine detection devices.


On September 19, 1989, St.Croix was devastated by Hurricane Hugo, a powerful category 5 hurricane that completely devastated the island. The damage was further accomplished by widespread looting in the aftermath. After total destruction of the farm and the island's economy, Jay was asked to return to the Hess Oil refinery during their rebuilding, this time working as Fired Boiler Supervising Engineer, where he continued for the next two years.


In 1992, the Reynolds repatriated to the United States mainland and purchased property to begin development of a self-sufficient homestead in the midwest. They have restored a 120 year old log cabin and built barns and outbuildings. Current efforts are nearing completion of a super-insulated Victorian style home built using native stone and the slip-form method. Soil is being built up using large amounts of organic matter and legume crops, and orchard trees have been planted. Their family now includes two children, some small animals, and a secure location to live, with timber, bottomland, a creek, and a free-flowing spring.


Upon returning from 12 years offshore, Jay was astonished at the changes he found in his nation. The loss of American rights, the submersion of sovereignty, lowering of educational achievement, and the decline of America's preeminence in manufacturing were especially troubling. Seeking answers and solutions, he allied with William Cooper, a great American who has been documenting these changes and their possible outcomes. Jay's research has helped in the production of a newspaper, VERITAS, the Harvest-Trust website, and Mr. Cooper's nightly broadcast "The Hour of the Time". His writing has been featured on several websites and newspapers, and he hopes to provide the best information possible, fully documented and verifiable by any reader. He is willing to listen to all viewpoints and strives to establish reality based on factual information and logical analysis. His work has been completely without remuneration and is for the benefit of all.

[hoot]

sorry jr it's against my religion to be perfect, humm somewhere you haven't been? Chemring? Edgewood? The Guide Stones? humm i'll have to go out in the woods, make a fire , and muse about that one for a few days

[jayreynolds]

sorry jr it's against my religion to be perfect, humm somewhere you haven't been? Chemring? Edgewood? The Guide Stones? humm i'll have to go out in the woods, make a fire , and muse about that one for a few days

Not perfect?
Hell, hootie, your score is just minus of zero so far.
Not a very credible response from somebody whose whole claim has been demolished.

Perhaps you want another try, eh?

Try these on for size. They are basic questions central to the issue of your "chemtrails" claims,
questions which should be very easy to answer for anyone holding such a belief:

I heerby challenge 'hoot' to answer these ten questions:

1.Do you have a background in a technical field? If not, whom do you consider to have such a background who would state the case for "chemtrails" being a case of "geoengineering"? If no one with such a background exists after five years of interest(enough time for a baccalaureate degree to be earned) why not?

2.Which resource do you depend upon for accurate, sound scientific informaton about "chemtrails"? If none can be relied upon, why not?

3.Several meetings were held this past year which were unparalleled opportunities for you to present papers or exhibits to distinguished scientists in fields relevant to "aerosol research" and "aviation emissions". I have examined the proceedings and found no evidence that such a presentation was made. Did you, or any other"chemtrail" interest person present at these conferences? If not, why not?

4. What is your personal definition of 'chemtrails"?

5. What are ordinary contrails, how are they formed, and what determines whether they persist, or not?

6. In what way are alleged "chemtrails" different from ordinary contrails?

7.What is the best scientific proof available that "chemtrails" are anything other than ordinary contrails?

8.Could you please direct our attention to a photo of an
archetypical "chemtrail", one which you would attribute to "chemtrails"?

9. halva cites William Thomas in his case for "chemtrails". William Thomas has stated the following: "the formation of condensation trails requires temperatures lower than about minus 76 F". Is that statement correct, and if not, do you personally consider Thomas an accurate source of information?

If you rely on the statements or writings of others in your explanation, please cite the sources by name and location, publication, URL link, etc, in the standard manner.

[gaiacomm]

Here we go again! Hoot, make sure you take your time before you answer these questions. I already did and so did Wayne now its your turn! I know you can do it...!

[halva]

OK Hoot, you've passed the test. You don't need to stick around here anymore.

[jayreynolds]

Hey, Wayne, as I have numerous times before, I am again recommending an unparallelled opportunity for you chemmies to present your claims face-to-face before real scientists.

I hereby challenge you to hire exhibit space at the 4th Annual Meeting of the European Meteorological Society 26-30 September 2004. Held in Nice, France in the Acropolis Conference Centre, it will consist of a broad and open scientific conference with oral and poster presentations as well as symposia and special lectures.
http://www.copernicus.org/ems/2004/

Here is the page describing exactly how you can make your exhibition:
http://www.copernicus.org/ems/2004/exhibition.htm

Although the deadline for inclusion in the meeting programme book has passed, I believe that booth space is still obtainable, and I strongly urge you to act quickly to see that your viewpoint is represented.

There.
See, you can have no better friend than Jay Reynolds if you indeed seek the truth.

Will you accept the challenge, or do nothing and bow your head in shame?

I predict that no effort will ever be made by a chemmie to subject their claims to public scrutiny among real scientists or project their recruitment efforts among those knowledgeable in the field of atmospheric science.

They know their claims are bogus, they know that what they see are ordinary contrails, after all.

[jayreynolds]

OK Hoot, you've passed the test. You don't need to stick around here anymore.

What's the matter, Wayne?
You think you can boss anyone you like, or are you afraid that 'hoot will inflict further embarrassment on your cohorts when he is subjected to further slam-dunk debunking
like this:
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=87225&postcount=2413

[gaiacomm]

Hey JR I got a better idea. Why don't you organize a conference here in the US in your town and we will take care of the tab, This way I don't have to pay your way. Are you up for the challenge?

[jayreynolds]

Hey JR I got a better idea. Why don't you organize a conference here in the US in your town and we will take care of the tab, This way I don't have to pay your way. Are you up for the challenge?

I don't organize conferences for chemmies, and your people have a dismal track record for funding anything. No thanks.

'Sore throat' should take advantage of this upcoming event in his home town, but is too fearful that his status as a 'suit' for a multinational pharmaceutical corporation would be compromised:
http://www.agu.org/meetings/fm04/

Chemmie morons know their limitations, so-to-speak.

[gaiacomm]

No JR what I mean is that we will organize a conference on Chemtrails and you organize one that is aganist it. Now we wil pay for both. We will allow your organization to participate and attempt to debunk our data! So we look for space in your town get the permits and suppliers and lets say 2 days. We will get scientists and business leaders to talk. So what about that.

First of its kind in the USA! Co-sponsored by JR himself and all his chemmie friends!

[jayreynolds]

we will organize a conference on Chemtrails!

Bring it on.

[gaiacomm]

Ok JR since the host city will be yours. Would you be so kind to direct us to your mayors office and city planning so we can begin. Also do you know of a hall, convention center or university room we could use? What local newspapers are in your town, TV and radio?
What is the near airport and train station? Bus lines, etc. We also need police escort service/guard service.

Come JR supply some info so we can get started. It takes a couple of months at least to plan this. You will get creidt. Now you will represent the opposite side of Chemtrails. Wayne if you wish to help let me know.

Yes we need a good title! JR any ideas! Be serious.

[jayreynolds]

Come JR supply some info so we can get started.

I don't organize conferences for chemmies.
Besides, chemmies never follow through because they haven't
the courage of their convictions. Just like your claim to be going to the conference at Kos, Greece to lecture on "chemtrails".
Just like your prediction about June 30th in Iraq being the end of the world.
Just like your promises to 'reveal all' about haarp and "chemtrails".
It was all just blowing smoke up Wayne's ass!

NOTICE TO CHEMTRAILCENTRAL.COM READERS-
A FULL EXPOSE OF WHO, WHAT, WHEN, AND WHERE THE "DEEP SHIELD" HOAX CAME FROM IS AVAILABLE AT THIS LINK:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030627145117/www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000078.html

[size=4]THE ABOVE LINK IS A "MUST READ" DEBUNKING IN TWO PAGES, DOCUMENTING HOW 'DAVID G. STEWART' COMPOSED THE "DEEP SHIELD" HOAX.

Note that the above link is an archived version of the actual webpage at CTC, from a forum which was [b]DELETED IN IT'S ENTIRETY as part of yet another chemmie coverup.
The information presented at the forum where I was briefly allowed to post was a thermonuclear bomb obliterating this element of the hoax and it's existence could not be allowed, thus the whole forum was deleted.

[halva]

What's the matter, Wayne?
You think you can boss anyone you like, or are you afraid that 'hoot will inflict further embarrassment on your cohorts when he is subjected to further slam-dunk debunking
like this:
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=87225&postcount=2413

I'm not stopping Hoot from staying here if he wants to, but why should he?

Anyway I've found someone else for you to harass. A mainstream Greek journalist in an absolutely mainstream Sunday newspaper has just published a big feature article in the science section, taking as its starting point the recent Athens blackout and going on to give a rundown of HAARP and its capabilities and then giving an account of "Deep Shield" and chemtrails/geoengineering. There is even a photo-montage with a chemtrail aircraft flying across the face of the moon, so I would say you are duty bound to be at least as ferocious with mainstream journalist Tassos Kafantaris about it as you were with me about the photomontage published in Ethnos in February last year.

I'll provide translations and links to make things as easy as possible for you. Get to work!!!

[halva]

http://tovima.dolnet.gr/demo/owa/tobhma.print_unique?e=B&f=14220&m=H01&aa=1&cookie=

That is the link to the article in Greek.

The photomontage is
http://tovima.dolnet.gr/data/D2004/D0725/1reh1d.gif

I'll translate all the article finally, starting with the bits most relevant to chemtrails/geoengineering.

There is information on Tassos Kafantaris at this link (in Greek: I'll translate it).
http://www.ebusinessforum.gr/content/calendar/kafantaris.pdf

'Tassos Kafantaris is an informations systems engineer and journalist. He has completed a wide range of studies (MSc in Automation and Computers, MSc in CAD/CAM, Civil Law) and has extensive qualifications and experience in administration of large-scale works, quality control, technology auditing and industrial planning both as a manager and as a consultant. He has been writing on new technologies since 1980. The last three years (prior to 2002 W.H.) he has edited the electronic commerce magazine “xRAM” and the science and technology section of the newspaper ‘To Vima’. .'

You can see his e-mail address at the bottom.

[gaiacomm]

I don't organize conferences for chemmies.
Besides, chemmies never follow through because they haven't
the courage of their convictions. Just like your claim to be going to the conference at Kos, Greece to lecture on "chemtrails". (YES I WISH I COULD HAVE GONE BUT DUTY CALLED)
Just like your prediction about June 30th in Iraq being the end of the world.( NOT THE END OF THE WORLD BUT PEOPLE DID DIE THAT DAY AND THAT WAS THE END OF THEIR WORLD!)
Just like your promises to 'reveal all' about haarp and "chemtrails".(HAARP IS CONFIDENTIAL, CHEMTRAILS WELL YOU HAVE YOUR ANSWERS WHY SHOULD I WASTE MY TIME.
It was all just blowing smoke up Wayne's ass! (NO JR, UP YOURS!)


Good points JR!

[halva]

The HAARP of Climate (Vima Science, 25th July 2004)
by Tassos Kafantaris

Monday's blackout brought to mind its counterpart in the North-Eastern United States in 2003. At that time environmental organizations charged that the blackout had been caused by a peculiar system of aerials called HAARP. No official culprit was ever found, but the suspicions which accumulated and continue to accumulate exceed the wildest imaginations of science fiction. Apart, perhaps, from the imagination of its founder, the Prometheus of electricity, Nikola Tesla.

Around a year ago, at 4.14 on 14th August 2003 (and precisely after the closing of the Stock Exchange in Wall Street), the electricity network that supplies the North-Eastern United States and Canada shut down, returning 55 million people to the pre-electricity era. Investigating what had gone wrong, technicians found the cause at a crucial point where the current is transferred from the Mid-Western states to the East. Suspicions arose in relation to the network operators, comments were heard about out-of-date equipment, but the committee of experts that was constituted to identify who and/or what was responsible could not find any specific faults or operational errors. Nor had it been a natural phenomenon - like lightning or solar flares. There had been nothing that could have caused a general blackout. The only strange coincidence was that the same day and time, at 4.00 p.m., one of the most controversial experiments at intervention in the climate, HAARP, had beamed its signals at the ionosphere of our planet. According to its title, (High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program), this experiment 'investigates the possibilities of an artificial high-frequency aurora so that we can come to understand, replicate and control the ionospheric processes that influence the efficiency of communications and monitoring systems. More tangibly, what is involved is 180 antennas that have been constructed in a region of Alaska by the US Air Force and Navy in collaboration with the University of Alaska and another fourteen higher education institutions. The complex came into operation in 1993, with a projected research life-span of twenty years. The peculiarity of these antennas is: they are not passive recipients of signals, like all the antennas and radars that we are familiar with, but transmit radio waves to the outer layers of the earth's atmosphere, the ionosphere. The ionosphere is the layer at an altitude of seventy to two thousand kilometres that protects us from the sun's radiation, but which also makes possible radio-communication over all the length and breadth of the planet, reflecting radio waves. When HAARP's forest of antennas is put in operation , it emits a 3.6 megawatt pulse towards the ionosphere, through the spectrum of frequencies between 2.8 and 10 MHz. The consequences of of the pulse are then monitored by radar so that the similar, but much larger-scale, effects of solar storms on the earth, and the disturbance they bring to radio communications, may be understood. The installation in question is one of three, in total, owned by the United States. There is another near Fairbanks in Alaska and another near the Aresibo telescope in Puerto Rico. The European Union also maintains a similar research centre at Tromiso in Norway. If therefore we confine ourselves to this official data, the activities of HAARP amount to a legitimate research effort. That it has contributed with its electromagnic wave to overloading of the electricity network and has led to blackouts is something probable, but as yet unproven. For many researchers in environmental organizations, however, the activities of HAARP are just the tip of a vast iceberg.

THE SECRET STRINGS OF THE HAARP

The ideas on which HAARP is based are those developed in 1907 by the prodigious Serb physicist Nikola Tesla, the man to whom we owe the alternating-current electricity networks. A peerless visionary, deeply humanistic, Tesla had become preoccupied with the idea of deriving energy from the ionosphere with its wireless telecommunications potential. He saw the combination of ionosphere and planet as huge battery that could produce free energy for all the human race. To demonstrate the viability of his theories he constructed a transmission mast, quite similar to those now to be seen in HAARP. The experiment was partially successful, but the mast was destroyed. Irritated by his insistence on possibility of free distribution of energy, his financial sponsors allowed him to founder in debt. A little before the outbreak of war, Tesla presented a proposal at the Defense Department for a complex of antennas that could locate and shoot down anything that came into US airspace. His ideas were ridiculed as fantasies and Tesla died unhappy, impecunious and neglected. However, his notes were confiscated by the FBI in the interests of 'national security'.

Forty years later another researcher, the physicist Bernard Eastlund, made use of the same ideas when he was invited to Alaska as a scientific consultant to find a way of utilizing the huge deposits of natural gas that had been discovered in the north of the state. The region where the deposits were located was so remote that the cost of transporting energy for the drilling and the construction of a pipeline network was prohibitive. Eastlund took the ideas of Tesla as his starting point, and on that basis elaborated a proposal for an ionospheric conductor of energy. The company exploiting the deposits, ARCO, were not enthusiastic about his proposal, but the related inventions that Eastlund hastened to patent in 1985 attracted interest in military circles. They perceived that with a system like this they could interfere with telecommunications anywhere in the world and....quite a lot else. They therefore commissioned the affiliate of ARCO that had the rights to Eastlund's first inventions...to construct HAARP. In 1994 a company with connections to the Army, E-systems, bought out the ARCO affilifate and immediately afterwards announced the extension of HAARP research to the sector of subterranean tomography. Militarily that translates into the radiation in question being utilisable in detection of subterranean galleries, tunnels and shelters.

All these developments produced a reaction in Eastlund. He revealed that the military had transformed the initial research mission of HAARP into a project for a super-weapon. Distinguished physicists took up ths issue in periodicals such as Physics and Society, in which they confessed to feeling anxiety at the possible repercussions. Various researchers who by their own admission had worked on HAARP started to leak - always anonymously - what the new goals of the programme were. From what has been published between then and now, it is surmised that HAARP now possesses the following fearful 'operational capacities:':

* It can focus on a specific region of the planet and destroy telecommunications there.

* It can overload electricity networks and cause blackouts.

* It can locate nuclear missiles and destroy them through overheating their electrical circuitry.

* It can X-ray the earth's interior, registering all natural or artificipal tunnels or cavities.

* It can intervene in the processes generating extreme climatic phenomena, both impeding and causing such phenomena. For example, it can either disperse a typhoon or cause one.

* It can generate microclimate such as rain, fog, etc.

* It can generate artificial ozone, in regions, for example where the ozone hole is dangerously enlarged. And it can destroy ozone.

* It can influence the mood of populations through transmission of electro-magnetic radiation at specific frequencies, generating extreme behaviour and catatonic conditions.

It is certain that such a multi-faceted spectrum of potentials is the best possible gift for the adherents of conspicracy scenarios. Especially when each potential goes with its own corresponding patent lodged by Eastlund, along with as many successors that have been characterized top-security, so that the Pentagon does not permit their publication. The material for a mystery story is certainly there. How can one separate the wheat from the chaff? The most recent, and shattering scenario is one that was started in circulation from an e-mail by an anonymous meteorologist, who stated that he works on HAARP. According to this so far uncorroborated source, HAARP is the last safety shield protecting the planet Earth.

(Continued on page 251 [posting 2510]}

[jayreynolds]

[QUOTE=halva]

There is information on Tassos Kafantaris at this link (in Greek: I'll translate it).
http://www.ebusinessforum.gr/content/calendar/kafantaris.pdf

'Tassos Kafantaris is an informations systems engineer and journalist. He has completed a wide range of studies (MSc in Automation and Computers, MSc in CAD/CAM, Civil Law) and has extensive qualifications and experience in administration of large-scale works, quality control, technology auditing and industrial planning both as a manager and as a consultant. He has been writing on new technologies since 1980. The last three years (prior to 2002 W.H.) he has edited the electronic commerce magazine “xRAM” and the science and technology section of the newspaper ‘To Vima’. .' QUOTE]

Well, just off the top of my head, I'm wondering exactly how 'TO VIMA' is going to handle the lawsuit for violation of this copyrighted photo? Are Greek tabloids in a habit of doing such things?
http://www.vinland.com/MoonPlane.html

Perhaps the old adage is true, "When you shake hands with a Greek, be sure to count your fingers afterwards."

(More later)
NOTICE TO CHEMTRAILCENTRAL.COM READERS-
A FULL EXPOSE OF WHO, WHAT, WHEN, AND WHERE THE "DEEP SHIELD" HOAX CAME FROM IS AVAILABLE AT THIS LINK:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030627145117/www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000078.html

[size=4]THE ABOVE LINK IS A "MUST READ" DEBUNKING IN TWO PAGES, DOCUMENTING HOW 'DAVID G. STEWART' COMPOSED THE "DEEP SHIELD" HOAX.

Note that the above link is an archived version of the actual webpage at CTC, from a forum which was [u][b]DELETED IN IT'S ENTIRETY as part of yet another chemmie coverup.
The information presented at the forum where I was briefly allowed to post was a thermonuclear bomb obliterating this element of the hoax and it's existence could not be allowed, thus the whole forum was deleted

[gaiacomm]

The HAARP of Climate (Vima Science, 25th July 2004)

The chemtrails/geoengineering-related section starts as follows:

"How can one separate the wheat from the chaff? The most recent, and shattering scenario is one that was started in circulation from an e-mail by an anonymous meteorologist, who stated that he works on HAARP. According to this so far uncorroborated source, HAARP is the last safety shield protecting the planet Earth.

According to this source, the World Health Organization revealed secretly to governments of the most technologically advanced countries the findings of its studies, according to which climatic developments, in conjunction with reduction of ozone in the atmosphere, will eliminate life from the face of the earth within the next 75 years! The governments agreed to a secret plan for intervening in the climate known as 'Shield' (The Shield Project), so that on a case-by-case basis the most sensitive regions can be inoculated with artificially created ozone. The objective is gradually, by the year 2050, to reverse the Earth's downward trajectory. For this to be accomplished, he says, the atmosphere of the earth is being sprayed by aircraft from the collaborating countries (and these include the USA, Canada, the European Union and Russia) with particles of barium, aluminium and titanium. This creates the required second pole, the first being that of the ionosphere. HAARP discharges into the ionosphere the necessary energy which, recycled, returns into the atmosphere to the 'pole' of the sprayed particles. From the electrical stimulation produced there is artificial production of ozone, blocking the carcinogenic effects of the sun in the area unprotected by nature...

If this is being done, why the secrecy? On the one hand, says the anonymous source, because panic from knowledge of what is about to happen would trigger uncontrollable situations, on the other hand because the particles are claiming, and will continue to claim over coming decades, millions and even billions of victims, chiefly from diseases of the respiratory system.

As breathtaking as this scenario may seem, in the absence of charges from an identifiable source and corroboration of evidence, we are obliged to regard it as a figment of the imagination. But we cannot ignore an identifiable and official allegation that was lodged in August 2002. The Russian parliament, the Duma, presented to President Putin the findings of a study by commissioners of international relations and defence, signed by 90 parliamentarians, in which the following statement is made: 'The United States is developing new integrated geophysical weapons which can affect the atmosphere of the earth...(etc. etc.)

The article concludes: 'Very many questions, to which we will perhaps start to get some answers in the immediately coming years. And in the meantime we will continue to look suspiciously at the once innocent lines behind aircraft in the sky'.

(I will fill in the blanks in the translation over the next days, WH)


Sounds like Gaiacomm!

[gaiacomm]

Very Interesting:

Gaiacomm is up to something! 29.Jul.2004 15:31

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Moore link


As a former FBI Agent I can assure you all that this Gaiacomm is real and this Judah Ben-Hur is real and is currently under close watch due to the National Security nature of the technology and the public political opninion that seems to be all over the internet. There is no direct threat to our National Security by Dr. Ben-Hur but there is a chance that the technology could be compromised and used by our enemies aganist us and Dr. Judah Ben-Hur being kidnapped or convinced to go the other way.

I suggest that Gaiacomm and Dr. Judah Ben-Hur be placed under control of the NSA or FBI until further notice.

[gaiacomm]

Gaiacomm is up to something! 29.Jul.2004 15:31

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Moore link


As a former FBI Agent I can assure you all that this Gaiacomm is real and this Judah Ben-Hur is real and is currently under close watch due to the National Security nature of the technology and the public political opninion that seems to be all over the internet. There is no direct threat to our National Security by Dr. Ben-Hur but there is a chance that the technology could be compromised and used by our enemies aganist us and Dr. Judah Ben-Hur being kidnapped or convinced to go the other way.

I suggest that Gaiacomm and Dr. Judah Ben-Hur be placed under control of the NSA or FBI until further notice.


Gaiacomm Technology! 31.Jul.2004 08:56

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Statford, Phd link


I agree with that statement. As crazy as it sounds and reads we cannot take any chances. This Dr. Ben-Hur and this Gaiacomm Technology should be locked up before someone gets hurt. I read some of this guys essays and I pray to god he is on our side. Because if he is not then we are in trouble. He must be someone to be able to post such patriotic commentary and be left alone and in addition be a scientist who has a technology that can be wireless or ignite the atmosphere in selected areas of the planet. The fact that there is no info on this person is suspect that this has to be real. I checked out the website and the technical claims and I find them sound. I am an Engineer who first thought it a scam but after reading and comparing notes it makes since especially that I already work for a Government funded project thru DOE.

We are at war with terrorists and I want to be assured that Dr. Judah Ben-Hur and his technology is under our control. God also help us if you think that he could be kidnapped to another country and forced to use it on us. I hope he is loyal to the United States. Bush better get this in the coral fast before someone else. Does Kerry know about this?


Is GAIACOMM INTERNATIONAL for real ? 31.Jul.2004 12:21

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A mathematician / program developer link


My thoughts same as the former FBI agent posting.
Gaiacomm International is for real.

Their claims make certain mathematical sense in that select areas of the Earth's atmosphere CAN be ignited. No living human substance remains due to extremely high temparatures inflected.

If Bush doesn't grab this company and its technology ( how ever far developed it is ) then maybe we need a new leader. Hope Kerry is up to the challenge.

WHAT IF ... Gaiacomm is real, and its technology CAN do what it claims ? Do we as Americans take that chance ? We took a chance on 9-11-2001 that Osama bin Laden was just a bunch of hot air. Well, he was. The World Trade Centers emitted a lot of hot air. Do we go for two ?

Plus, the cell phones don't work worth a crap. Very unreliable. Maybe this Gaiacomm can get us decent telephone service in the US before the Chinese beat us to it.

[gaiacomm]

Bush, don't let this technology get away! 31.Jul.2004 15:20

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ronald Steins, Retired Military Commander link


There is a lot of hype over this Gaiacomm technology and its discoverer Dr. Judah Ben-Hur. Well I have not found any published material from this person in the science world but that is ok. Must be a cover to protect the truth of the science. The website is impressive! Not to say that this person does not exist, he does and has a technology that is pretty impressive from what I can read over the Internet. Somehow he has remained an enigma from the science world, which I can understand if you wish to protect your secret. Never publish what you don't want copied or stolen. Barring that I have found that the technology proposed does have some merit if it can be proved thru extensive testing. If those litmus tests can be proven then this Gaiacomm 4G wireless technology will change the telecom market, as we know it and another Bill Gates will be in the making.

I also wonder why the FBI, CIA or NSA has not taken this person under their wings. I mean what a cover! Ben-Hur? Come on how original. This guy moves thru the Internet like a shadow and from what I can tell has a following. He critiques the President on one hand and praises him on the next. He calls for Regime Change in the USA but wishes freedom for everyone. What a character. Maybe he should run for President of the USA!

At least we would have chariot races on the front lawn!
As a US citizen and we are at war I think we should take this technology seriously and we should at least protect it or it might end up in Iraq!

[halva]

Just to cut through the smokescreen being emitted by Raynolds/Ben Hur at this moment I would remind readers (are there any?) of the following exchange on this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by halva
Here is a question for you. If it turns out that there are chemtrail spraying programmes, and they are not a hoax. would you say that you support such programmes that are 'for our own good'!? Or would you say that you are against them?


Wayne, such an act would be illegal under the US Code , and I support the rule of law. Internationally, it would violate the Nuremberg Code and I would also condemn it. You pitiful excuses for "activists" would have no better advocate than me if there were any proof that what you see are other than ordinary contrails, which they are. If I were on your side, the issue would have been settled already, done and over with.


So it is down in black and white. When the existence of chemtrails is proven, Raynolds/Ben Hur will be the leader of the opposition to it/them.

[jayreynolds]

NOTICE TO CHEMTRAILCENTRAL.COM READERS-
A FULL EXPOSE OF WHO, WHAT, WHEN, AND WHERE THE "DEEP SHIELD" HOAX CAME FROM IS AVAILABLE AT THIS LINK:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030627145117/www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000078.html

THE ABOVE LINK IS A "MUST READ" DEBUNKING IN TWO PAGES, DOCUMENTING HOW 'DAVID G. STEWART' COMPOSED THE "DEEP SHIELD" HOAX.

Note that the above link is an archived version of the actual webpage at CTC, from a forum which was DELETED IN IT'S ENTIRETY as part of yet another chemmie coverup.
The information presented at the forum where I was briefly allowed to post was a thermonuclear bomb obliterating this element of the hoax and it's existence could not be allowed, thus the whole forum was deleted
=====================================
In other news, Wayne, it looks like giacon is yet again 'salting the mine' in vain attempts to create personas which he hopes people will swallow as references for his existence as other than Lance Haubrick. Supposed "FBI agents", "Retired military commanders", "PhD scientists"
will be posting stuff at some messageboard somewhere, most likely. Rather 'self-serving', wouldn't you say, Lance?

Here is the reality of exactly who 'giacon' is:
'giacomm' AKA 'Dr.Judah Ben-hur' is a fraud and a liar. His real name is Lance Haubrick.
One look at his face will easily show that he is mentally unstable.
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/photos/haubrick.jpg

Though he graduated from Oregon State University with a master's degree in environmental engineering, his career has been a failure. Sensing this, before graduation, he fabvricated a grandiose delusion in which he was employed by Giacomm, a fictional corporation whose business has nothing whatsoever to do with environmental engineering.
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/new...Jan02/water.htm

He has, since then fabricated ever-more grandiose proclamations which have been posted on free 'press release websites-
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...G=Google+Search

Haubrick suffers from Multiple Personality Disorder, which is usually produced as a result of violent childhood sexual trauma so horrible that it has to be dissociated from the host consciousness and lodged in an alternate personality. His main 'public mouthpiece'
alternate personality is "Dr, Judah Ben-hur", supposedly a physicist, who however, is inept at making any physics sense.

The reality is that Haubrick never has risen past being a sewer inspector on an Indian Reservation employed by Indian Health Services in Martin, South Dakota.
http://engr.oregonstate.edu/mailman...ber/000553.html

After receiving continued threats from Lance Haubrick, many of which were made during working hours on a government owned computer, I contacted his supervisor, Albert Berreth, who was interested to read the threats made, and agreed that Haubrick was indeed a very disturbed individual. Berreth agreed to monitor Haubrick's antics and had his computer security manager contact me, who stated that they would cooperate fully with law enforcement officials if I wished to have him charged criminally.

The threats were stopped.

The fact is that Haubrick has been, and currently is, a very sick person in desperate need of psychiatric help. The most friendly gesture I could make is to tell him to immediately commit himself to a psychiatric hospital for diagnosis and treatment. He might find sanity and justice for the homosexual abuse he suffered as a child, but not by submerging his own distorted personality beneath a fake one. Get help now, Lance Haubrick.

[jayreynolds]

So it is down in black and white. When the existence of chemtrails is proven, Jay Reynolds will be the leader of the opposition to it/them.

Yes, of course, Wayne. I have said this for over five years now.

However, in the ensuing five years, what have we gotten?

Hoaxers who lay claim to anonymous sources stating undocumentable claims about barium, aluminum, innoculations, claims to have invented haarp, or even to have their own personal version of it!

What do all these supposed "whistleblowers" have in common, Wayne?

They all lead the readers through a fantasy which self-selects those whose personal paradigms will accept the premise, or those whose bullshit filter is so malfunctioning that they just believe whatever they are told.

They are all dead end roads which purport to tell a story, but in actuality lead the readers on to no end, no tangible, verifiable, person place, or thing is ever mentioned!

Chemmies(Wayne in particular), am I getting through to you?

[gaiacomm]

JR is once again fixated on this Lance Haubrick phenomena.

What JR will have to learn very quickly is that sometimes if often not one must do their homework completely and not rely so heavily on the Internet to provide the information you seek. JR has made many attempts to flush me into the open but will not get the story of the century, which does not belong to him but to others that deserve it. Wayne Hall is a person who is on a quest to uncover the truth about Chemtrails. His heart and soul is in total exposure of the truth. The problem right now is that there are people like JR who prey on these people and attempt to sway opinion and fact. There are others who attempt and are quite successful in gaining profit from these anomalies of man and nature by building websites and publishing books to milk the fears and concerns of others.

Poor Lance Haubrick who at one time wished to work for Gaiacomm but plans changed. Unfortunately the Internet is a reservoir of information some current some not some manipulated some not. If in fact JR spent the quality time and researched the truth he in fact would have seen the difference in the two. Soon JR will have to apologize to Lance and his Supervisor for the slanderous remarks made to him. As for me the fact that soon JR and others will realize the mistake he made in placing me and Lance as the same person will destroy JR’s creditability and prove once and for all that someone can be wrong. That fact alone will satisfy my interests in JR.
JR is not the Holy Grail and is not the lone wolf of the truth. JR has found a niche market on the Internet to exploit. And has become quite good at it. Convincing many and confusing more.

The nice thing about the Internet is, once you learn its secrets it can be used as a tool that can open many doors and close many doors on information. Once you gain access to what is behind the door with the proper key the entire world of information is at your fingertips.

The only fault that I see with JR is that he is ignorant of his ignorance.


www.gaiacomminternational.com
The Art of Global Wireless Communications

[halva]

Have you submitted your questionnaire to Tassos Kafantaris, Raynolds/Ben Hur?

Or invited him to this site, telling him in no uncertain terms that if he declines to come he is a cultist and hoaxer and afraid of scientific debate?

And also told him about the copyright issue with the photograph, of course, in a suitably self-righteous tone, digging up some threat if you can find one, and make it stick?

You have his e-mail address. You can do these things.

I suspect you have not.

After all, he is not a political activist but a professional journalist and there is an unspoken code governing relations between people like you and those in positions of institutional power, and influence, however modest. People who are not activists but professionals doing their job.

You are aware that if you did any of these things he would know that it is you who are the hoaxer and the cultist, and he would not bother even replying to you.

As I said, this thread is the last place in the universe where you continue striking the Jay Reynolds pose, and even here your options are rapidly narrowing.

[jayreynolds]

Have you submitted your questionnaire to Tassos Kafantaris, Reynolds?
Or invited him to this site, telling him in no uncertain terms that if he declines to come he is a cultist and hoaxer and afraid of scientific debate?
And also told him about the copyright issue with the photograph, of course, in a suitably self-righteous tone, digging up some threat if you can find one, and make it stick?
You have his e-mail address. You can do these things. I suspect you have not. After all, he is not a political activist but a professional journalist and there is an unspoken code governing relations between people like you and those in positions of institutional power, and influence, however modest. People who are not activists but professionals doing their job.
You are aware that if you did any of these things he would know that it is you who are the hoaxer and the cultist, and he would not bother even replying to you.
As I said, this thread is the last place in the universe where you continue striking the Jay Reynolds pose, and even here your options are rapidly narrowing.

Wayne, you promised a complete translation, links, etc. I am waiting for this thus-far unkept promise to be fulfilled. I expect at the end of the article he disclaims it all and says it is the belief of a bunch of cultic lunatics, but will wait and see before I judge him personally, even for the photo copyright violation. So, bring it on, let's see the whole article, unless there are some of the extremist juntalover or racist type comments you'd rather not let us see?

Wayne, doesn't the article you linked to say that the anonymous source called 'deep shield' is "unreliable"?

========================================
NOTICE TO CHEMTRAILCENTRAL.COM READERS-
A FULL EXPOSE OF WHO, WHAT, WHEN, AND WHERE THE "DEEP SHIELD" HOAX CAME FROM IS AVAILABLE AT THIS LINK:[/b][/size]

http://web.archive.org/web/20030627145117/www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000078.html

THE ABOVE LINK IS A "MUST READ" DEBUNKING IN TWO PAGES, DOCUMENTING HOW 'DAVID G. STEWART' COMPOSED THE "DEEP SHIELD" HOAX.

Note that the above link is an archived version of the actual webpage at CTC, from a forum which was DELETED IN IT'S ENTIRETY as part of yet another chemmie coverup.
The information presented at the forum where I was briefly allowed to post was a thermonuclear bomb obliterating this element of the hoax and it's existence could not be allowed, thus the whole forum was deleted

[gaiacomm]

JR is once again fixated on this Lance Haubrick phenomena.

What JR will have to learn very quickly is that sometimes if often not one must do their homework completely and not rely so heavily on the Internet to provide the information you seek. JR has made many attempts to flush me into the open but will not get the story of the century, which does not belong to him but to others that deserve it. Wayne Hall is a person who is on a quest to uncover the truth about Chemtrails. His heart and soul is in total exposure of the truth. The problem right now is that there are people like JR who prey on these people and attempt to sway opinion and fact. There are others who attempt and are quite successful in gaining profit from these anomalies of man and nature by building websites and publishing books to milk the fears and concerns of others.

Poor Lance Haubrick who at one time wished to work for Gaiacomm but plans changed. Unfortunately the Internet is a reservoir of information some current some not some manipulated some not. If in fact JR spent the quality time and researched the truth he in fact would have seen the difference in the two. Soon JR will have to apologize to Lance and his Supervisor for the slanderous remarks made to him. As for me the fact that soon JR and others will realize the mistake he made in placing me and Lance as the same person will destroy JR’s creditability and prove once and for all that someone can be wrong. That fact alone will satisfy my interests in JR.
JR is not the Holy Grail and is not the lone wolf of the truth. JR has found a niche market on the Internet to exploit. And has become quite good at it. Convincing many and confusing more.

The nice thing about the Internet is, once you learn its secrets it can be used as a tool that can open many doors and close many doors on information. Once you gain access to what is behind the door with the proper key the entire world of information is at your fingertips.

The only fault that I see with JR is that he is ignorant of his ignorance.


www.gaiacomminternational.com
The Art of Global Wireless Communications

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[halva]

Wayne, you promised a complete translation, links, etc.

I'll give you the complete translation. What links do you want?



I am waiting for this thus-far unkept promise to be fulfilled. I expect at the end of the article he disclaims it all and says it is the belief of a bunch of cultic lunatics, but will wait and see before I judge him personally, even for the photo copyright violation. So, bring it on, let's see the whole article, unless there are some of the extremist juntalover or racist type comments you'd rather not let us see?

There are no disclaimers, and the only reservation is what you have already read: that because the Deep Shield source is anonymous, what he says cannot be treated as iron-clad evidence. However, David Stewart is not inaccessible to people to whom he wishes to be accessible, and that is not negligible as a factor that could weigh with journalists. Also, as I said, the writer of the article is not a political activist like Liakopoulos [it is not Liakopoulos' ideology that is the key to the crucial difference -it is the fact that he is an activist].

Of course, I am now getting close to involving myself in substantial debate with you, something I said I wouldn't do and which few others are prepared to do voluntarily. But after all, a miracle could occur and you could see that the writing is on the wall for the line you have been pursuing for so many years now, and make the necessary adjustments.

There are a number of points of detail on which Tassos Kafantaris' article could be criticised, I think. But helpful, constructive criticism is not the kind that you are interested in, or practise.

[jayreynolds]

I'll give you the complete translation.
Well, where is it?

[halva]

If you'd looked at the original posting you'd see that I'm adding to it bit by bit.

There is nothing else of importance, just the Tesla story, which I will translate over the next days.

What's your hurry? The delay gives you some time for reflection.

[jayreynolds]

Wayne, why does this Tassos falsely assert that "deep shield" claims to be a meteorologist and who works on Haarp? No such claim was made in the email hoax that David G. Stewart wrote.

Also, Wayne, going back to the original text of Stewart's hoax, he was asked this question:
from: http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5956&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=ff45604b2325c91d79d3b10a13f243da
Q- 3. What other military programs are in place involving the spraying of barium and what are their purposes? Do you know and understand the chemical make up of the element?

"A little knowledge will go a long way to understanding the need to use barium: Barium is often used in barium-nickel alloys for spark-plug electrodes and in vacuum tubes as a drying and oxygen-removing agent. Barium oxidizes in air, and it reacts vigorously with water to form the hydroxide, liberating hydrogen. In moist air it may spontaneously ignite. It burns in air to form the peroxide, which produces hydrogen peroxide when treated with water. Barium reacts with almost all of the nonmetals; all of its water-soluble and acid-soluble compounds are poisonous. Barium carbonate is used in glass, as a pottery glaze, and as a rat poison. Chrome yellow (barium chromate) is used as a paint pigment and in safety matches. The chlorate and nitrate are used in pyrotechnics to provide a green color. Barium oxide strongly absorbs carbon dioxide and water; it is used as a drying agent. Barium chloride is used in medicinal preparations and as a water softener. Barium sulfide phosphoresces after exposure to light; it is sometimes used as a paint pigment. Barite, the sulfate ore, has many industrial uses. Because barium sulfate is virtually insoluble in water and acids, it can be used to coat the alimentary tract to increase the contrast for X-ray photography without being absorbed by the body and poisoning the subject.

Note what Barium Oxide can do, absorb carbon dioxide - one of the chief gasses causing the green house effect."

First of all, let it be known that David G. Stewart, who promulgated the email supposedly sent by "deep shield", is a carpenter with no scientiifc knowledge. In preparing his hoax, Stewart had to give the impression of knowledge which was beyond his own personal capability, so in answering as "deep shield", he went to an internet source and copied WORD FOR WORD
the text quoted above.

It comes directly WORD FOR WORD from the INFOPLEASE website:
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0806202.html
"Barium is often used in barium-nickel alloys for spark-plug electrodes and in vacuum tubes as a drying and oxygen-removing agent. Barium oxidizes in air, and it reacts vigorously with water to form the hydroxide, liberating hydrogen. In moist air it may spontaneously ignite. It burns in air to form the peroxide, which produces hydrogen peroxide when treated with water. Barium reacts with almost all of the nonmetals; all of its water-soluble and acid-soluble compounds are poisonous. Barium carbonate is used in glass, as a pottery glaze, and as a rat poison. Chrome yellow (barium chromate) is used as a paint pigment and in safety matches. The chlorate and nitrate are used in pyrotechnics to provide a green color. Barium oxide strongly absorbs carbon dioxide and water; it is used as a drying agent. Barium chloride is used in medicinal preparations and as a water softener. Barium sulfide phosphoresces after exposure to light; it is sometimes used as a paint pigment. Barite, the sulfate ore, has many industrial uses. Because barium sulfate is virtually insoluble in water and acids, it can be used to coat the alimentary tract to increase the contrast for X-ray photography without being absorbed by the body and poisoning the subject.

Being scientifically illiterate, when Stewart saw that "Barium oxide strongly absorbs carbon dioxide", he decided to add that element to his hoax, writing, "Note what Barium Oxide can do, absorb carbon dioxide - one of the chief gasses causing the green house effect"

Now, to an illiterate, this might sound like a great idea, just add barium oxide to the atmosphere and let it suck up all the CO2 and VOILA!, no more 'greenhouse'!

The problem is, however, that when a scientist looks at this claim it turns out to be presposterous(and please check this out with your friend the chemist Dr. Nikos Katsaros, Wayne, who should've caught this already).

Here is the problem:
The chemical reaction equation where barium oxide(BaO) combines with carbon dioxide(CO2) looks like this:
BaO+CO2--> BaCO3
In order for this reaction to take place, it requires one mole of barium oxide with a molecular mass of 153 grams/mole to absorb one mole of CO2 with a molecular mass of 44 grams/mole, to produce witherite.

Considering the energy required(which produces CO2) to produce, process, transport, load, then flown and release as "chemtrails" the far greater quantity of barium oxide needed to absorb a tiny amount of carbon dioxide, it is preposterous that any net reduction of CO2 could be expected!

So, folks, just a quick fact checking of the first 200 words of the "deep shield" paper shows it to be fabricated from copy/paste material found on the internet. It also becomes clear
that this "Tassos" fellow, touted as being a "Master of Science" is unable to evaluate a simple stoichiometric balance equation and recognize that what he is being told is false!

I won't bother at this time to point out that if planes flew around spraying aluminum such activity would be plainly visible on any weather radar screen as hard white lines, but we might eventually get into that...........

I am left with the impression that there could be a reason why present-day Greece is better known for it's production of minor foodstuffs than for it's scientific achievement. If this is what you have in your "mainstream" science magazines, Wayne, I am certainly sad for your people.

[jayreynolds]

If you'd looked at the original posting you'd see that I'm adding to it bit by bit.
There is nothing else of importance, just the Tesla story, which I will translate over the next days. What's your hurry? The delay gives you some time for reflection.

Well, the story appears to be mainly about Haarp, at least from the english words present and the map of Alaska, so I'd be interested in reading that part. Likely it will be the meat of the article I would suppose. As far as me being in a hurry, well, you were the one prodding a response to 'Tassos', and I'd not be fair if I had only read part of the article, now would I?

Perhaps I should ask why the hurry for me to have a rush-judgement, and why the delay in translation and minimization of the balance of the article's content, Wayne?

Is there something in that part of the article you are trying to hide?

[gaiacomm]

JR is once again fixated on this Lance Haubrick phenomena.

What JR will have to learn very quickly is that sometimes if often not one must do their homework completely and not rely so heavily on the Internet to provide the information you seek. JR has made many attempts to flush me into the open but will not get the story of the century, which does not belong to him but to others that deserve it. Wayne Hall is a person who is on a quest to uncover the truth about Chemtrails. His heart and soul is in total exposure of the truth. The problem right now is that there are people like JR who prey on these people and attempt to sway opinion and fact. There are others who attempt and are quite successful in gaining profit from these anomalies of man and nature by building websites and publishing books to milk the fears and concerns of others.

Poor Lance Haubrick who at one time wished to work for Gaiacomm but plans changed. Unfortunately the Internet is a reservoir of information some current some not some manipulated some not. If in fact JR spent the quality time and researched the truth he in fact would have seen the difference in the two. Soon JR will have to apologize to Lance and his Supervisor for the slanderous remarks made to him. As for me the fact that soon JR and others will realize the mistake he made in placing me and Lance as the same person will destroy JR’s creditability and prove once and for all that someone can be wrong. That fact alone will satisfy my interests in JR.
JR is not the Holy Grail and is not the lone wolf of the truth. JR has found a niche market on the Internet to exploit. And has become quite good at it. Convincing many and confusing more.

The nice thing about the Internet is, once you learn its secrets it can be used as a tool that can open many doors and close many doors on information. Once you gain access to what is behind the door with the proper key the entire world of information is at your fingertips.

The only fault that I see with JR is that he is ignorant of his ignorance.


www.gaiacomminternational.com
The Art of Global Wireless Communications

Project HAARP/Tesla.

[gaiacomm]

JR, Project HAARP for what its worth is a government funded project to research atmospheric principles and other Pre PHD work from universities that wish more Government funding after graduation. The Dept of Navy is very careful what they disclose on their public website.
Only a very very small handful of scientists will discuss what is not public and some of those are already dead for various reasons so the circle is even smaller.

So have fun looking for the holy grail!

[jayreynolds]

The peculiarity of these antennas is: they are not passive recipients of signals, like all the antennas and radars that we are familiar with, but transmit radio waves to the outer layers of the earth's atmosphere, the ionosphere.


Strange, I thought everyone was familiar with radio transmitting antennas. How on earth do people think those signals they receive get to their receivers, anyways? Transmitting radio waves to the ionosphere isn't especially remarkable, either, this is exactly how 'shortwave" AM and medium wave radio works to propagate their signals, they all bounce off the ionosphere.

Show us the parts about the "capability" of haarp, wayne. That should be good.

[jayreynolds]

Only a very very small handful of scientists will discuss what is not public and some of those are already dead for various reasons so the circle is even smaller.


Ok, name them and "why they are already dead for various reasons", Lance.

[gaiacomm]

Strange, I thought everyone was familiar with radio transmitting antennas. How on earth do people think those signals they receive get to their receivers, anyways? Transmitting radio waves to the ionosphere isn't especially remarkable, either, this is exactly how 'shortwave" AM and medium wave radio works to propagate their signals, they all bounce off the ionosphere.

Show us the parts about the "capability" of haarp, wayne. That should be good.

The higher the frequency the more directional it becomes and you have objects in the way so instead of using the Ionsophere to propogate you now use the magnetic field of the earth to propagate your signal oh yes and you will need an isotropic antenna to broadcast the ominidirectional signal Now you need to reflect off the magnetic field for it to work so you will have to use a freq. that is conducive which would be TERAHERTZ. Now we have to get over the horizon or global coverage that means that you have to have a low freq carrier to carry the signal globally. Now where is the information packets oh yes they must be interlaced with the low freq.

And of course you must have power to get the signal coverage you desire.

Now lets see who do we know that can broadcast globally now? Whales can! Oh but we kill them don't we!

Physics 999!

If you wish to know more go to www.gaiacomminternational.com

[gaiacomm]

Ok, name them and "why they are already dead for various reasons", Lance.

I can smell consipracy in the air!

[gaiacomm]

Wayne is busy!

http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/waynehall.html

[gaiacomm]

Seems like you and JR have something in common!

Wayne Hall is a Greek citizen born in Australia, graduate of the University of Sydney, teacher and freelance translator in Athens. In the nineteen eighties he was a member of European Political Disarmament, the non-aligned British-based anti-nuclear-weapons movement. In the late nineteen eighties he joined the editorial board of the Greek ecological magazine Nea Ecologia. He was a founding member of ATTAC-Hellas, Greek section of the international citizen's movement ATTAC and has a personal website kindly hosted by the Greek student newspaper Diplomatic Times: http://www.diplomatictimes.com/hddf/hddf. He is married and has one son.


"Strategies Against Climate Change" is © Wayne Hall (halva@hellasnet.gr), 2004 and is used with permission here at www.Holmestead.ca.

[gaiacomm]

http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/deepshieldII.html

[jayreynolds]

http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/deepshieldII.html
from your link:
"Think of all the pre-1978 cars on the road - they are still producing a good many chemicals that leech into every corner of the globe."

Huh? How many people does this guy really see running around driving 26 year old cars?

For the truth about how David G. Stewart wrote the "deep shield" hoax, see:
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=89837&postcount=2448

[gaiacomm]

from your link:
"Think of all the pre-1978 cars on the road - they are still producing a good many chemicals that leech into every corner of the globe."

Huh? How many people does this guy really see running around driving 26 year old cars?

For the truth about how David G. Stewart wrote the "deep shield" hoax, see:
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=89837&postcount=2448


JR you do make a good point!

[halva]

Wayne, why does this Tassos falsely assert that "deep shield" claims to be a meteorologist and who works on Haarp? No such claim was made in the email hoax that David G. Stewart wrote.

I rather wondered that myself. But please don't ask me why Tassos asserts this or that. Ask him.



In preparing his hoax, Stewart had to give the impression of knowledge which was beyond his own personal capability, so in answering as "deep shield", he went to an internet source and copied WORD FOR WORD


The interview took the form of exchange of e-mail, though D.S. says (and I believe) that he later spent a lot of time together with 'Deep Shield'. But the fact that the interview was written means that Deep Shield himself could have done the copying, if there has been copying..

These points of detail you are picking up are very interesting and some of the things you say may be valid, but as you know well, the outcome of political confrontations is not determined by minor points of scientific accuracy. The fact that articles like Tassos Kafantaris's are coming out in the mainstream press is a new development, and is perceived as such, as the number of telephone calls to the handful of people in Greece who have been involved in this issue can testify.

If in the light of all this you still persist in doing exactly what you have been doing for all these years, you deserve whatever you finally have coming to you. My spamming in Chinese and Hebrew was intelligent compared to the way you are reacting.

Also, you are making these comments about Tassos Kafantaris' article to ME, not to him.

[jayreynolds]

The interview took the form of exchange of e-mail, though D.S. says (and I believe) that he later spent a lot of time together with 'Deep Shield'. But the fact that the interview was written means that Deep Shield himself could have done the copying, if there has been copying..

Wayne, David G. Stewart, when challenged with overwhelming facts, was forced to admit that there were no emails-

"Yes, there was three posts made which are said to be emails from A Friend.
I lied.


These points of detail you are picking up are very interesting and some of the things you say may be valid, but as you know well, the outcome of political confrontations is not determined by minor points of scientific accuracy. .

Wayne, this shows how little you know of science. A close analogy that you may understand is cooking. Imagine what would happen if , through a "minor inaccuracy", one added salt rather than sugar when making 'halva'. The result would be a total failure, un-acceptable, worthless.

That's the way it is with the truth, too. Stewart tried to concoct a believeable hoax, one which, on the surface, to a non-critical thinker unfamiliar with the science involved, might appear genuine.

But once dissected, the core of the hoax becomes visisble, rotten, maggot-festering, worthless for anything.

Isn't it becoming clear that Tassos, Holmes, Wayne, Hall, and so many others have obviously neglected to use sound principles of evaluation when looking at the 'deep shield' stuff?

In Tassos' case, no analysis, scientific or logical was presented at all, the whole section devoted to 'deep shield' was just a reiteration of the claims made by David G. Stewart, with no critical thinking applied whatsoever!

That is not science, that is blind acceptance. If Tassos had his 'Master of Science' wits about him, he would have thought,

"Now, if planes were flying back and forth across the world spraying aluminum, as 'deep shield' said, such a reflective metal would leave behind an unmistakably luminescent trail on ordinary weather radar!"

Putting on his 'Master of Science' hat, he would write,
"In science. we test hypothesis to find if they are true. If the hypothesis fails then test, we scrap it and test another, this is how we find the truth!"

But, sadly, in Greece, such logic seems to have fallen by the wayside.
At the two places you posted the article to, Wayne, I see no substantive commentary, so looks like the whole thingy is pissing in the wind. Let Greeks buy into a hoax for all I care, perhaps they deserve losing some fingers once in awhile.

I'm still waiting for the balance of the 'translation', if you're not too scared to show us the nasty bits..........

[gaiacomm]

Dear Brian:

Yes there are other research centers that claim to have similar attributes
to HAARP but those are primarily support centers that gather data and send
it to HAARP in Alaska and in some cases to Russia labs. As for physical
locations I am sure that in
time I can provide that to you. There are some NSA issues that prevent it
now.

I will stay in touch and keep you current about Gaiacomm.

Sincerely,
Dr. Judah Ben-Hur
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Holmes" <G.Brian.Holmes@sympatico.ca>
To: "gaiacomm" <gaiacomm@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 11:46
Subject: Re: Holmestead - Chemtrails comments.


> Hi:
>
> Many thanks - I now see what you were getting at...
>
> I have seen the CT sky with what appeared to be some sort of modulation
> that is unlike herring bone clouds. Perhaps that is the HAARP in action.
>
> If you are familiar with the subject of HAARP is it true that there are
> many other facilities other than the one claimed to be in Alaska?
>
> Other than that - I wish you well with your venture!
>
> Best regards,
>
> B.
>
> *****
>
> gaiacomm wrote:
> > Dear Brian:
> >
> > No real connection to Chemtrails other than we use Tesla's technology
for
> > our wireless system and we use the same technology as HAARP. We just
wanted
> > you to be aware that other technology exists that can be used for
weather
> > mod or weapons systems and of course for wireless communications.
> >
> > Thanks for your response!
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brian Holmes" <G.Brian.Holmes@sympatico.ca>
> > To: "gaiacomm" <gaiacomm@sbcglobal.net>
> > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 15:09
> > Subject: Re: Holmestead - Chemtrails comments.
> >
> >
> >
> >>Hi - I'm sorry but I need a little more.
> >>
> >>I visited the web site and don't see the connection...
> >>
> >> B.
> >>
> >> *****
> >>
> >>gaiacomm wrote:
> >>
> >>>Maybe this will help!
> >>>
> >>>www.gaiacomminternational.com <http://www.gaiacomminternational.com>
> >>>
>
>
> --
> BRIAN HOLMES,
> "Holmestead" 140 Thunder Beach Road,
> Concession 17, Township of Tiny, RR4,
> Penetanguishene PO, Ontario, Canada, L9M 2H7
> Phone: 705 533-4287 Fax: 705 533-1764
> Web sites: http://www.Holmestead.ca/
> http://www.librarygardentour.ca/
> http://www.computersforkids.ca/
>
> Protect our water & stop landfill site 41
> http://www.stopdumpsite41.ca
>
>

[gaiacomm]

Wayne:

Our Olympic Games are beginning now ahead of schedule before Athens. Check your mail!

[hoot]

A nice place to go for some pretty haarp pictures file://A:\NRL%20Monterey%20Aerosol%20Page.htm If the link doesn't work and it has probably been closed by now; put Naval Research Laboratory Monterey Aerosol Page in your search engine and start from there. See if you can get into Sea WiFS

[gaiacomm]

Already inside!

http://seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEAWIFS.html

[halva]

Raynolds, I am going to put up the rest of Kafantaris' translation, in which there is nothing that I am frightened of you seeing.

The fact that you keep addressing your comments to me indicates that you are more interested in Wayne Hall than you are in the 'chemtrails hoax'. Or rather that you are too complexed to address yourself to professionals.

You are a little man who likes tormenting the little fish.

[gaiacomm]

I am still waiting for JR to point me the direction in his city so I can begin to organize the first public debate on Chemtrails with both sides to present their cases to the public and have a panel of common people judge the results. From there we can present our case to the US Supreme Court for a ruling.

[jayreynolds]

[QUOTE=halva]
"According to this source, the World Health Organization revealed secretly to governments of the most technologically advanced countries the findings of its studies, according to which climatic developments, in conjunction with reduction of ozone in the atmosphere, will eliminate life from the face of the earth within the next 75 years! The governments agreed to a secret plan for intervening in the climate known as 'Shield' (The Shield Project), so that on a case-by-case basis the most sensitive regions can be inoculated with artificially created ozone."

So, what David G. Stewart is claiming with his hoax is that despite worldwide monitoring of ozone, including by scientists in Greece at Thessaloniki, an enormous coverup involving thousands upon thousands of scientists, meteorologists, and even students is maintained.

His allegations, however, are testable, if ozone is as precarious as he says it is, why can no chemmie produce evidence of it being so?

Thinking further, if planes making contrails were releasing a substance in the upper troposphere(30-40,000 ft high), and this substance were capable of creating "artificial ozone", as alleged, this also is testable. For ordinary ozone does not form significantly in that portion of the atmosphere, rather it forms in the mid-to-upper stratosphere, most at around 80,000 feet, far above the capability of aircraft, and twice that of ordinary jetliners or air tankers!

So, here we have two cases which are testable:

1.- is ozone actually so depleted that "artificial ozone" needs to be produced?

2.- is such ozone present at atmospheric levels coincident with ordinary flight levels, in levels sufficient to establish a 'shield', and absent at it's normal stratospheric levels?

If the answers to either 1 or 2 above is correct, there is some empirical rationale to believe 'deep shield'.

If not, he is a liar.

I challenge any chemmie to obtain ozone measurements to prove their case. This can be independently done from the ground using a dobson meter, and taking air samples from a ordinary commercial jetliner at cruising altitude, then analyzing the sample.

Will you be willing to do such a test, Wayne, or Brian Holmes, or any of the others? Not hard at all to prove your case, i'd say, and if you had results they would undoubtedly be publishable in a scientific journal, at which point the author would become a Nobel nominee.

If you are unwilling to test your hypothesis, you are as bogus as David G. Stewart, William Thomas, and all the others.

[jayreynolds]

Mexican Journalists Get HELLASS Welcome To Greece

"Three uniformed men got out and confiscated their IDs and accreditation, along with their telephones and equipment. The officials then searched them in such a violent way that one of them fell to the ground. At the same time, they were insulted and threatened.

According to Kalligas, they were then handcuffed and take to the headquarters of the port police. Vaquiero was ordered to put his hands on a table. When he did not comply quickly enough, a policeman banged his head against the table.

Kalligas said that when an official from the 2004 Athens Games organising committee came to verify their accreditation, their handcuffs were removed. But they were put back afterwards. They were then led to a kind of gymnasium while being administered kicks to make them walk quickly. There, with their heads bent and legs wide apart, they were again insulted and threatened. When a policeman began to lower the trousers of one of the journalists, an officer came in and said : "None of that here." The behaviour of the policemen changed completely when senior military officers arrived.

The journalists were only able to telephone their TV station when the Mexican ambassador arrived. They filed a complaint today. The Greek news media yesterday just reported the Mexican TV crew's arrest without mentioning their claims that they had been subjected to violence. When the international news agencies reported the allegations that they had been hit, threatened and insulted, the local media just used the statement issued by the merchant marine ministry."

http://www.categorynet.com/fr/cp/details.php?id=51362

FOR SHAME, WAYNE!

[jayreynolds]

Damn, Wayne, you sorta shut down the whole forum for about a week?
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=73169#73169

I owe you one, old buddy!

[gaiacomm]

HAARP has nothing to do with balckouts in any form. The blackout in Greece was a human error not checked. Haarp does not interfere with your daily lives but it does interfere with the weather at times. There are more potent systems out there that are more destructive than HAARP!

[halva]

Raynolds, if my tardiness in translation deters you from posting, you are motivating me to do it even more slowly than I am now.

Also, you are still persistently addressing ME, as if you are indifferent to the accuracy of the comments I made about this habit.

In your postings on Greece you are also apparently forgetting whose forum this is.

And by the way, I am not an ambassador for anything concerning the Olympic Games, which like many ordinary Greeks I am systematically avoiding.

[jayreynolds]

Raynolds, if my tardiness in translation deters you from posting, you are motivating me to do it even more slowly than I am now.
Also, you are still persistently addressing ME, as if you are indifferent to the accuracy of the comments I made about this habit.
In your postings on Greece you are also apparently forgetting whose forum this is.
And by the way, I am not an ambassador for anything concerning the Olympic Games, which like many ordinary Greeks I am systematically avoiding.

Ok, you can withhold translation for whatever reason you wish, it only makes it clearer that there is something you wish to hide in that article. I continue to dissect it, and the 'deep shield' hoax was based on.

No, my comments on the greek article are not simply directed towards you. In fact, they are merely peparatory to writing the author and editors of Lambrakis Press, and even towards chemmies in general. So far, the following constructive criticisms have been leveled:

1. The article, said to be published in a "mainstream" science magazine, contains no critical analysis whatsoever, when such application of the scientific method is a hallmark of science.

2. The 'deep shield' emails can be definitively shown to be and were confessed to be, the work of one David G. Stewart, a woodworker who relied on word-for-word cut/paste from ordinary internet sources in more than one instance, not the work of an alleged "meteorologist who works on haarp".

3. The photo displayed as representing "spraying" is in fact of ordinary contrails from an Air India passenger jet, photo was published without attribution and represents a violation of copyright.

4. Several factual mistakes are easily found within the "deep shield" text which confirm that they were not written by a scientist, but rather a person with only cursory knowledge. The author 'Tassos', negelected to address these glaring errors, or to apply logic and critical fact checking towards the claims it made.

I add now yet another criticism.

Sound journalism, besides reporting the who, what, where, and when of a subject matter, includes, especially in a matter where difference of opinion exists, representations of both opposing viewpoints. Even if no visible opposition exists, it is encumbent for the author to seek out such opinions from any interested parties. In this case, 'Tassos' merely reported the claims of 'deep shield', whom he admits must be considered "unreliable", but negelected to question and report the opinions of those most familiar with the air, namely pilots and atmospheric scientists. This represents yet another failure of the article to meet ordinary standards. It is ironic that the largest convocation of ozone scientists in the world recently met in Kos, Greece. Such an opportunity comes around only every four years, and despite being informed of and challenged to present their case before the assembly, no greek or other chemmie dared to openly state their case before that august body.

Wayne also has ignored my challenge to produce independent empirical evidence that ozone levels require an "artificial shield" as claimed by David G. Stewart, or evidence that such an artificial ozone is being formed at altitudes where it is not normally found.

Wayne Hall knows that he was hoaxed.

Ironic also that his avoidance itself precludes his ever having a chance to prove his case!

[jayreynolds]

WELL HERE IT IS, WAYNE. YOUR CHANCE TO PROVE YOUR CASE AWAITS YOU IN THESSALONIKI!

Wayne Hall is hereby challenged to test the 'deep shield' hypothesis, that stratospheric ozone levels are so low that in fact an 'artificial shield' must be created by areal applications of chemicals and power applications from haarp, to produce 'artificial ozone' in the upper troposhere.

The current state-of the-art instrument for measuring column ozone levels from the ground is the Brewer MKIII spectrophotometer. These precision instruments are solely manufactured by Kipp & Zonen:
http://www.kippzonen.com/product/brewer.html

Serendipity has it that exactly such an instrument is available in Thessaloniki, Greece, at the Aristotle University there.

http://www.bpu.auth.gr/researchDetails.asp?id=140
[b]"Direct ultraviolet spectral measurements are performed at Thessaloniki, Greece (40.5N, 22.9E), with a Brewer MKIII spectrophotometer since 1997."
-------------------------------------
Not only does an instrument exist at Thessaloniki, but THE ENTIRE NORTHERN HEMISPHERE''S OZONE IS MAPPED AT THESSALONIKI!
http://lap.phys.auth.gr/ozonemaps/

"Since 1990 WMO has arranged for the preparation of daily maps of total ozone distribution over the Northern Hemisphere during the period 1 November to 31 March. This activity was requested by WMO Members. The basis for these maps are ozone data obtained from about 90 monitoring stations of the WMO Global Ozone Observing System (GO3OS) which is now part of the WMO Global Atmosphere Watch (GAW) that are submitted in near-real time. Over the ocean areas these data are complimented by satellite data (TOMS in the past, SBUV-2 during winter-spring 1995-96, and currently TOMS on Earth Probe). Since summer 2001 there are also available in near-real time maps based both on ground based and GOME total ozone observations. The preparation and distribution of the maps is made by the WMO Northern Hemisphere Daily Ozone Mapping Centre operated by the Laboratory of Atmospheric Physics at the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki (Greece)."

Wayne Hall has only a 4 & 1/2 hour eco-friendly train ride
http://www.greece.gr/BUSINESS/Infrastructure/onthefasttrack.stm
to go visit Thessaloniki and prove 'deep shield' a fake.

Will Hall follow in the footsteps of that famous Greek, Aristotle, founder of the scientific method, and test his hypothesis, or shrink from that duty?????

WHAT SAY YOU, WAYNE HALL, WILL YOU STAND LIKE A MAN, OR RUN AND HIDE LIKE A MOUSE???

[jayreynolds]

chemmies proving Jay Reynolds correct:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/message/114141

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/message/114143

Thanks, folks!

[halva]

It is ironic that the largest convocation of ozone scientists in the world recently met in Kos, Greece. Such an opportunity comes around only every four years, and despite being informed of and challenged to present their case before the assembly, no greek or other chemmie dared to openly state their case before that august body.


You have a short, and selective memory. I made it quite clear what our strategy would be in relation to the Kos conference. Rather than going there, we invited them to come to us, and they did.

I am not going to get involved in any debate concerning Tassos Kafantaris and/or Lambrakis. .

You will not achieve escalation, because I am your sole interlocutor and raison d'etre. But if you did, it would be to my benefit.

But you won't because none of the people whose names you mention have ever heard of you, or ever will. Everything you do is confined to this thread. You make everything up, like the story about Gaiacomm being Lance Haubrick, when we all know that Gaiacomm is you. It is all just fiction. You and Gaiacomm are both fictitious and you are the same person.

[gaiacomm]

JR sure is a wealth of information. I needed to purchase some new atmospheric equipment so now thanks to JR I have another source.

I will repeat for the record that HAARP and DEEP SHIELD are two different subjects one being real the other a ?.

JR be calm and wait there is truth coming your way real soon!

[halva]

Thank you for your comment, Raynolds/Ben Hur.

[jayreynolds]

WELL HERE IT IS, WAYNE. YOUR CHANCE TO PROVE YOUR CASE AWAITS YOU IN THESSALONIKI!

Wayne Hall is hereby challenged to test the 'deep shield' hypothesis, that stratospheric ozone levels are so low that in fact an 'artificial shield' must be created by areal applications of chemicals and power applications from haarp, to produce 'artificial ozone' in the upper troposhere.

The current state-of the-art instrument for measuring column ozone levels from the ground is the Brewer MKIII spectrophotometer. These precision instruments are solely manufactured by Kipp & Zonen:
http://www.kippzonen.com/product/brewer.html

Serendipity has it that exactly such an instrument is available in Thessaloniki, Greece, at the Aristotle University there.

http://www.bpu.auth.gr/researchDetails.asp?id=140
[b]"Direct ultraviolet spectral measurements are performed at Thessaloniki, Greece (40.5N, 22.9E), with a Brewer MKIII spectrophotometer since 1997."
-------------------------------------
Not only does an instrument exist at Thessaloniki, but THE ENTIRE NORTHERN HEMISPHERE''S OZONE IS MAPPED AT THESSALONIKI!
http://lap.phys.auth.gr/ozonemaps/

"Since 1990 WMO has arranged for the preparation of daily maps of total ozone distribution over the Northern Hemisphere during the period 1 November to 31 March. This activity was requested by WMO Members. The basis for these maps are ozone data obtained from about 90 monitoring stations of the WMO Global Ozone Observing System (GO3OS) which is now part of the WMO Global Atmosphere Watch (GAW) that are submitted in near-real time. Over the ocean areas these data are complimented by satellite data (TOMS in the past, SBUV-2 during winter-spring 1995-96, and currently TOMS on Earth Probe). Since summer 2001 there are also available in near-real time maps based both on ground based and GOME total ozone observations. The preparation and distribution of the maps is made by the WMO Northern Hemisphere Daily Ozone Mapping Centre operated by the Laboratory of Atmospheric Physics at the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki (Greece)."

Wayne Hall has only a 4 & 1/2 hour eco-friendly train ride
http://www.greece.gr/BUSINESS/Infrastructure/onthefasttrack.stm
to go visit Thessaloniki and prove 'deep shield' a fake.

Will Hall follow in the footsteps of that famous Greek, Aristotle, founder of the scientific method, and test his hypothesis, or shrink from that duty?????

WHAT SAY YOU, WAYNE HALL, WILL YOU STAND LIKE A MAN, OR RUN AND HIDE LIKE A MOUSE???

Let the record show that Wayne Hall ran like a mouse from the challenge to actually test the claims of David G. Stewart[AKA. "Deep Shield"] against actual ozone measurements taken in his presence at Thessaloniki, Greece. He knows that such a test would prove, once and for all, that his entire worldview of "chemtrails" is a hoax, and that he is promoting the hoax knowingly.

[hoot]

You are right jr the ozone layer is at 70-80 thousand feet up. Ya, there is no evidence with the present percentage of oxygen at 19% that we are going to ever go without that good ole O3. Why I've even heard that that 03 layer is only a few feet thick. Is that true? That these 03 holes are just dips in the altitute that this feet thick layer forms at. Is that true? Maybe I've been snookered. humm Why maybe even those geologists-biologist that say that life couldn't get out of the oceans till the atmosphere had a least a 2% oxygen content so that a UVb protective 03 layer could form had it wrong. Why,I even remember reading this silly study 35 years ago when I was in grad school about how some "real "scientists induced 100% skin cancers in mice by feeding them in their food 400ppm of a azo dye used for food coloring called butter yellow. Seems all 100 of the little buggers excreated enough of this benzene containing compound through their skin where exposed to the UV rays in normal sunlight it broke down to cancer causeing benzene. Silly "scientists didn't think nothing of it because this was one of their control groups. They knew it was going to happen because this was what happenned to tens of thousands of people in the 50s and 60"s that ate this azo dye in their magarine . Oh, don't worry jr THEY quietly switched to another azo dye called sunset yellow (F&C yellow #6)that has a much slower effect. Very interesting though that if you look at the label of any "sunscreen " on the drug store shelf you will see a simple little compund called oxybenzene in the "active" ingredients. humm

[gaiacomm]

JR sure is a wealth of information. I needed to purchase some new atmospheric equipment so now thanks to JR I have another source.

I will repeat for the record that HAARP and DEEP SHIELD are two different subjects one being real the other a ?.

JR be calm and wait there is truth coming your way real soon!

[jayreynolds]

You are right jr the ozone layer is at 70-80 thousand feet up. Ya, there is no evidence with the present percentage of oxygen at 19% that we are going to ever go without that good ole O3. Why I've even heard that that 03 layer is only a few feet thick. Is that true? That these 03 holes are just dips in the altitute that this feet thick layer forms at. Is that true? Maybe I've been snookered.

Well, here are actual profiles of ozone concentrations at various altitudes over Canada, and yes, 'hoot', you've been snookered many times, I'm sure.

READ AND WEEP, CHEMMIES

http://woudc.ec.gc.ca/e/ozone/All_sonde_graphs.htm

Looks like Brian Holmes has been proven wrong, Wayne. Ozone is just fine where it should be, up in the stratosphere, and not present where it shouldn't be, in the troposphere.

This proves through actual balloon-borne measurements that the claims of David G. Stewart(AKA 'deep shield') are bogus, null, and void.

Looks like your people have all been 'snookered', chemmie morons.

[halva]

The fact that there is a 'Jay Reynolds' who behaves as he does is something that it is worth trying to explain. There is certainly more point to trying to explain than there would be to accepting the 'challenges'. Given that Reynolds' response when challenged is to issue a challenge himself, and given that neither side has any reason to accept the other side's challenges, it is well to understand that what is going on here is not a collaborative attempt to get at the truth. It is a war. Truth can prevail only if Raynolds is removed from the scene.

The Manhattan Project is the paradigm to which all the present activity that is generating 'Jay Reynolds' personality types can be traced back, and there is also remarkable institutional continuity: the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory, for example, is a player from the beginning to the end.

Prior to Hiroshima/Nagasaki, Los Alamos was as non-existent as chemtrails are today. Most of the thousands of people working there had no idea of the purpose of what they were doing. Those who knew had to accept the rules of a new way of living in this world where it is a question of duty to tell lies to your friends and family. The ultimate betrayal. This was the most thorough method for eradicating all happiness and all quality from human life. The justification evoked was 'national security' because of the alleged necessity of developing nuclear weapons before the Nazis did so, since if they got them first they would use them first, on the U.S. and its allies.

This Nazi threat was a myth. The Atlanticist governing elite had had a very good understanding with the Nazis all through the 1930s, and even when war started it would have been possible to choose a different approach to competing in a race for nuclear weapons.

The fact is that SCIENTISTS IN NAZI GERMANY HAD MORE RESPECT FOR THE INTEGRITY OF SCIENCE THAN DID THE POLITICAL LEADERSHIP (AND AS A RESULT ALSO THE SCIENTIFIC ESTABLISHMENT) OF THE ALLIES. Even as late as 1939, 'national security' requirements had not led to imposition of censorship on scientific papers dealing with nuclear fission and its potential for use in bombs. After the publication of a letter from Joliot-Curie indicating the feasibility of a fission bomb, a high-level meeting was held in Berlin, and there was an attempt at it by one of the German scientists to censure his colleagues for freely publishing their scientific work on nuclear fission, given its obvious strategic importance. There was almost no support at all for this viewpoint.

In 1941 a moral debate took place among German scientists on the subject of nuclear weapons and as a result of it Werner von Heisenberg travelled to German-occupied Denmark to speak with Professor Niels Bohr. Bohr had so far resisted German attempts to involve him iin the war effort. Heisenberg proposed to Bohr an international agreement among scientists not to work on nuclear weapons projects.

But Bohr interpreted Heisenberg's proposal as a German attempt to neutralise the Allied superiority in nuclear physics. He replied that military research everywhere was inevitable and thus also proper. And when he escaped two years later from Denmark, he embarked on a passionate campaign to tell the world that Nazi Germany was on the verge of developing a fission bomb.

The choice of J. Robert Oppenheimer to head the atomic bomb project was a natural complement to this sudden inability of Allied politicians to deal effectively with the Nazis, with whom their relations had previously been so harmonious. Oppenheimer had been emotionally identified with the Republican side in the Spanish Civil War, whose defeat left him available for committing himself to the 'fallback position' of fighting the Nazis on behalf not of 'liberty' or 'socialism' but of 'democracy'. He was the obvious instrument for the new purpose.

It is really time for the Oppenheimer story to be retold. Its usual packaging as a moral tale against McCarthyism does not do justice to its true dimensions and significance. The anti-Communist primitives who tried so hard to get Oppenheimer removed from the Manhattan Project were ABSOLUTELY JUSTIFIED in what they were trying to do, but their simple-minded American patriotism was no match for the forces they were up against, and which all of us continue to be up against.

The 'patriots' who were prevailed upon to lay off Oppenheimer in 1943 were later unleashed against him in the McCarthy era. Who does not see the parallel between this and the attempted co-option of supporters of Allende and his Communist allies to support a vindictive retrospective campaign of vengeance against the no-longer useful dictator Pinochet in the 1990s. Some responded too.

Dialectics.

[gaiacomm]

Wayne:

Good point! I can assure you that times have changed and their are some scientists that are Patriots and know how to fight!

[jayreynolds]

The fact that there is a 'Jay Reynolds' who behaves as he does is something that it is worth trying to explain. There is certainly more point to trying to explain than there would be to accepting the 'challenges'. Given that Reynolds' response when challenged is to issue a challenge himself, and given that neither side has any reason to accept the other side's challenges, it is well to understand that what is going on here is not a collaborative attempt to get at the truth. It is a war. Truth can prevail only if Raynolds is removed from the scene.

Wayne, let's look at some of the challenges I have made:
1. A list of 10 direct basic essential questions regarding your claims. These questions are central to the issue for both sides, and lead towards the truth if answered truthfully. I have completed answers to all of them, Wayne has not. He is therefore shown to be uninterested in the truth.

2.Multiple challenges to present the 'chemtrail" claims before reputable scientists knowledgeable in related fields. All but one of these challenges were ignored. In the one case of the Tyndall Centre, only serendipity allowed us to find that the scientists there gave no credence whatsoever to the "chemtrail" claims, though they are intimately associated with proposed 'geoengineering'. Such presentations would be of great benefit to his cause, if indeed his claims were found truthful and correct. The unanswered challenges show that Wayne Hall is uninterested in publicly risking being scrutinized by established experts in the field of atmospheric science, because he knows that indeed the claims are bogus.

3. The most recent challenge involved testing the claims of David G. Stewart(AKA. 'deep shield')
which say that earth's stratospheric ozone is insufficient to shield us from UV radiation, and that airplanes are spraying aluminum and barium to create ozone at ordinary flight levels.
I challenged Wayne Hall to travel 4&1/2 hours up the road and witness actual ozone measurements being taken which will show sufficient ozone in the stratosphere, where it should be, and ordinary low ozone levels at flight levels Stewart claims it to be. Wayne Hall refused to address the challenge at all, a challenge which, if it revealed Stewart's claims to be truthful, would be to his credit and amount to proof that the "chemtraiL" claims were factual

Indeed, in each of the three challenges above, one side risks everything, while the other risks nothing. It is the side which speaks the truth which risks nothing, and the side which knows it lies who hesitates to accept the challenge, for he knows what a risk it entails.

[gaiacomm]

JR has good points as well!

[halva]

3. The most recent challenge involved testing the claims of David G. Stewart(AKA. 'deep shield')
which say that earth's stratospheric ozone is insufficient to shield us from UV radiation, and that airplanes are spraying aluminum and barium to create ozone at ordinary flight levels.
I challenged Wayne Hall to travel 4&1/2 hours up the road and witness actual ozone measurements being taken which will show sufficient ozone in the stratosphere, where it should be, and ordinary low ozone levels at flight levels Stewart claims it to be. Wayne Hall refused to address the challenge at all, a challenge which, if it revealed Stewart's claims to be truthful, would be to his credit and amount to proof that the "chemtraiL" claims were factual


I have already said two or three times, to deaf ears, that my instincts tell me, and experience confirms, that the best way to approach scientists on anything connected with these controversial matters is not to to go to their territory and broach the controversial subject there, but rather to invite them to come to ours, so that they are spared the experience of cognitive dissonance and conflicting role expectations. That was the positive lesson derived from Kos and its aftermath.

DID I NOT SAY THAT, RAYNOLDS?? WHY ARE YOU DEAF TO THESE POINTS? The answer is of course that you have no respect either for the scientists concerned, or for your 'chemmie' opponents. Your only objective is to find new ways of demoralising, disorienting and intimidating both. Which is quite legitimate, of course, if one is fighting a war. But why does your war against chemmies extend to scientists also?

As for ozone, I do not have to go to Thessaloniki to read:

Canada adopts new sun radiation risk index
http://www.healthyontario.com/english/news_details.asp?channel_id=0&text_id=1938

Excess UV-b radiation found deadly to amphibian species
http://www.cnn.com/EARTH/9712/09/deadly.sunlight.ap/

Amphibian declines complicated, disturbing
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/newsarch/2000/Feb00/frogs.htm

Worldwide Amphibian Declines: How big is the problem and what are the causes?
http://elib.cs.berkeley.edu/aw/declines/declines.html

That said, please be informed that of the portion of my time and energy I reserve for you, the bulk of it, from this point onward, now that the prospect seems perhaps to have become more feasible, will be devoted not to discussing anything with you but to pursuing the objective of getting you removed from this thread.

[gaiacomm]

Now Wayne has good points. I like ping pong.

[jayreynolds]

I have already said two or three times, to deaf ears, that my instincts tell me, and experience confirms, that the best way to approach scientists on anything connected with these controversial matters is not to to go to their territory and broach the controversial subject there, but rather to invite them to come to ours, so that they are spared the experience of cognitive dissonance and conflicting role expectations.

Wayne, my challenge for you to go four hours down the road was to observe for yourself while ozone measurements were taken over your area. This is called the "scientific method", where a hypothesis(such as that made by David G. Stewart(aka. "deep shield") is tested against empirical measurements of actual ozone.

Like I said, I am issuing the challenge, I am willing to take the risk that you might actually find that what Stewart says is true, but you, on the other hand, have shown yourself unwilling to even try and prove your claim at all!

The difference between us is that I know I am right, and you know you are wrong.

You know that "chemtrails" are simply ordinary contrails, THAT is why you refuse the challenges, not "so that [the scientists] are spared the experience of cognitive dissonance and conflicting role expectations", but rather so that you are spared the embarrassment of having your whole hoax crumble around you!

It's so pitiful, Wayne, to deal with such impotent opponents, you chemmies are about the weakest excuses I've ever known for human skin.


That said, please be informed that of the portion of my time and energy I reserve for you, the bulk of it, from this point onward, now that the prospect seems perhaps to have become more feasible, will be devoted not to discussing anything with you but to pursuing the objective of getting you removed from this thread.

So, rather than answer basic questions, present your claims publicly before experts familair with the subject matter, or even gathering evidence which could prove/disprove your case, you have yet again chosen to try to silence me from challenging your belief system, something you should welcome if indeed your faith were true, but now we all know just how thin of an onionskin veneer your 'faith' really amounts to. You know damn well that what you are promoting is a lie, and that's why you are running for cover like a cockroach, little twerp!

Well, bring it on, little man, let the chips fall where they may.

[halva]

Wayne, my challenge for you to go four hours down the road was to observe for yourself while ozone measurements were taken over your area. This is called the "scientific method", where a hypothesis(such as that made by David G. Stewart(aka. "deep shield") is tested against empirical measurements of actual ozone.

Raynolds, the techniques you have developed for disorganizing and intimidating 'chemrails' actvists and climate scientists were developed in the United States where there is a prevalent ideology of 'science' that does not have so much influence in older societies. You are now harassing Europeans as well as Americans, and it would be best for you to bear in mind that you could acquire more credibility by factoring in concepts like 'politics', 'war', 'society' and so on, not just science. The fiction that we all live in one big experimental laboratory is something you like to amuse yourself with, and deploy as an all-purpose red herring. Personally, I believe that it is politics that is decisive in the chemtrails issue, with the finding of 'proof' only secondary, something that becomes relevant when the political battle begins to be won. There is something ridiculously childish about the opposite assumption: the notion that in the circumstances prevailing today if one finds proof, one can immediately start celebrating.
You truly do insult our intelligence, Raynolds.

You would like us to be children, imagining a society of caring parents who will come to our assistance if we present our problems to them in the proper way.

What is lacking in contemporary societies is not knowledge but facilties for assimilating and implementing knowledge. There is freedom of speech but nobody is listening.

You yourself do not listen when I explain the approach to working with scientists that has so far produced some results. And you do not explain why you implicate climate scientists in your war against chemmies. This lack of respect for scientists, and worse, is not confined merely to sending chemmies against them to embarrass them, or betraying their confidence, as you did with Dr. Cornell. If the reports one hears are true, you have done far worse than that.



So, rather than answer basic questions, present your claims publicly before experts familair with the subject matter, or even gathering evidence which could prove/disprove your case, you have yet again chosen to try to silence me from challenging your belief system.

You have silenced and demobilized many people, so yes, Raynolds, if I can possibly manage it, I am going to silence you.

[gaiacomm]

I like Red Herring it serves well on a plate full of lies and deciet! Once eaten it allows me a onetime chance to see thru the "looking glass" to get the truth!

[jayreynolds]

Raynolds, the techniques you have developed for disorganizing and intimidating 'chemrails' actvists and climate scientists were developed in the United States where there is a prevalent ideology of 'science' that does not have so much influence in older societies. You are now harassing Europeans as well as Americans, and it would be best for you to bear in mind that you could acquire more credibility by factoring in concepts like 'politics', 'war', 'society' and so on, not just science. The fiction that we all live in one big experimental laboratory is something you like to amuse yourself with, and deploy as an all-purpose red herring. Personally, I believe that it is politics that is decisive in the chemtrails issue, with the finding of 'proof' only secondary, something that becomes relevant when the political battle begins to be won. There is something ridiculously childish about the opposite assumption: the notion that in the circumstances prevailing today if one finds proof, one can immediately start celebrating. You truly do insult our intelligence, Raynolds.
You would like us to be children, imagining a society of caring parents who will come to our assistance if we present our problems to them in the proper way.
What is lacking in contemporary societies is not knowledge but facilties for assimilating and implementing knowledge. There is freedom of speech but nobody is listening.

What a ridiculous string of absurdities.
Yes, there is freedom of speech, but you have already declared that it must be suborned if one's politics don't agree with the 'masses'. The reason why no one is listening to your people, Wayne, is because the world simply doesn't jump when somebody makes an exceptional claim without exceptional evidence.

The notion that the scientific method was invented in the USA is similarly baseless. It was definitely created by greeks far superor to what is coming out of there now. The chain of progress of man out of superstition and into rationality leads back through Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates, not some baseless cult 'belief system' or so-called 'political realities'..

Your insistence on banning opposing thought and word is in direct contradiction to Socrates, who argued that truth can be found through methodical questions and answers.
That is exactly the method I was using in asking my ten unanswered questions, and how I am able to logically deduce by your reticence to answer them, that you are uninterested in the truth!

Plato, well he went further, and helped establish theoretical ways of thinking, but in the end his idea that knowledge is not possible of earthly things, but only of 'ideal substances/foms' was fatally wrong. You are among those people stuck in the Platonic trap, accompanied by a litany of 'believers' who swear that they can create reality through thought, and that perception is everything, "damn reality it doesn't matter, we can create our own". It is the realm of madmen, megalomaniacs, newagers, and of course, POLITICS!

The antidote to such folly, of course, is Aristotle. His contributions to logic and reasoning have proven incalculably valuable to the progress of man out of the superstition and tyranny of belief and towards true knowledge about reality.

His scientific methods of observation, hypothesis, experimentation, repetition, and evaluation leads to the truth about reality, a truth that no skeptic can deny, A PROVEN TRUTH AGAINST WHICH NO ARGUMENT CAN BE MOUNTED!

Aristotle would laugh his ass off to see how chemmies work, to jump from mere hypothesis, "I see a persistent contrail, therefore my theory is....", to a conclusion, "it must be spraying". For without testing of the hypothesis, and then logical evaluation of the results, you are left with mere 'belief', a point at which personal prejudice, ulterior motives, and indeed liars prosper.

He would have a student trying such perfidy flogged for sure!

So, Wayne, when you say, "Personally, I believe that it is politics that is decisive in the chemtrails issue, with the finding of 'proof' only secondary, something that becomes relevant when the political battle begins to be won.", you have no idea what satisfaction it gives me.

You have put the cart before the horse, you are trying to push a rope down the road, your gun is half-cocked, your theory is half-baked.

From that moment on, I can see that you, along with the dwindling remnants of your cult, are doomed to failure, to an endless feedback loop of GIGO, a succession of disappointment, and ultimately, disillusionment.

I'm going to have fun watching you on the way down, sucker!

[jayreynolds]

You have silenced and demobilized many people, so yes, Raynolds, if I can possibly manage it, I am going to silence you.

Wayne, you would do better to learn from their bitter experiences against the battle-ax of truth.
Resistance is futile.

[halva]

Unlike you, whose thinking has been distorted by the half-assed Christianity of fundamentalist American Protestantism, the ancient Athenians, as well as knowing about democracy and free speech, also had a code in war.

I have greater reserves than you, Raynolds, and I will bury you. You are a barbarian.

[gaiacomm]

Readers:

Don't you all just like ping pong? Who will win this debate between the infamous JR and the Socialist Greek Wayne?

This thread has become an amusement park of words. I still say that those two should combine their knowledge and work together to find the answer. Apart they will always debate.

[gaiacomm]

How about a public poll on this forum and have the readers read thru the thousands of posts and decide which side is right or makes sense. Is it JR and company or Wayne and company?

[gaiacomm]

Unlike you, whose thinking has been distorted by the half-assed Christianity of fundamentalist American Protestantism, the ancient Athenians, as well as knowing about democracy and free speech, also had a code in war.

I have greater reserves than you, Raynolds, and I will bury you. You are a barbarian.


Wayne: First rule of war, Never ever tell your enemy what you are thinking!

[halva]

First rule of interpersonal intercourse: Establish that you exist.

[hoot]

Way off subject,but an extension of the mostly hidden butter yellow skin cancer medical cover-up from the 1950s' that I openned a few days back. If the powers that be did decide to add oxybenzene to "sun screens " to induce more skin cancers, that would allow them to in turn tell their faithful honest , but dumb ,minnions in the sciences and military that we must do this massive aerosol spraying program to stop that "bad" UVb radiation from cancering out all life on earth; how would they go about promoting the increased use of these new "sun screens"? Average common sense should tell the population that we have existed since the beginning without the need for "sun screens" from that bad bad ole sol. Now this is going to take some real selling! Do you remember that charactor Zonker from the Doonesbury strip. What was his real message other than that long hairs were dirty useless slackers? Wasn't he a big promoter of "sun screens" after all was said and done? It's a funny thing when you look closely at Zonkers creator Garry Trudeau. Why,he was Skull and Bones at Yale 1970; his first strip there was about GWB branding his pledges with a red hot coat hanger; his senior thesis was about a nazi, he just happened to have a beheading strip out days before the Berg tape was released ; humm///// to help out on my research of the history air chem warfare i'm trying to track down a rumor that the Brits used aerosols from planes against the Iraq people to put down the uprising of 1919. does anyone here have any proof? I have the us army aerosol pattents from that year.