AL FRANKEN KNOCKS DOWN DEAN HECKLER

[ellena]

Love ya Al but take a tranq or something...

By VINCENT MORRIS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AL FRANKEN
Broke glasses in scuffle.
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January 27, 2004 -- EXETER, N.H. - Wise-cracking funnyman Al Franken yesterday body-slammed a demonstrator to the ground after the man tried to shout down Gov. Howard Dean.
The tussle left Franken's trademark thick-rim glasses broken, but he said he was not injured.

Franken - who seemed in a state of shock and out of breath after the incident - was helped back to his feet by several people who watched the tussle. Police arrived soon after.

"I got down low and took his legs out," said Franken afterwards.

Franken said he's not backing Dean but merely wanted to protect the right of people to speak freely. "I would have done it if he was a Dean supporter at a Kerry rally," he said.

"I'm neutral in this race but I'm for freedom of speech, which means people should be able to assemble and speak without being shouted down."

The trouble started when several supporters of fringe presidential candidate Lyndon Larouche began shouting accusations at Dean.



Franken emerged from the crowd and charged one male protester, grabbing him with a bear hug from behind and slamming him onto the floor.

"I was a wrestler so I used a wrestling move," Franken said.

[Inhale2theChief]

Maybe Franken can borrow one of Rush's oxycontins :lol:

[Alexx]

hahahaha.

I would have done the exact same thing as Franken if I had been there. You can yell fire in a crowded room even if there is no fire, but you will pay a price. Likewise, the room was full of people who were there to hear Dean, the heckler heckled, and then he didn't.

The issue is not Franken at all. If you want to make an issue at all, perhaps it's that Dean should have had some security there to do his and Al Franken's bidding. George Bush has had to handle hecklers in the past, usually they are ushered away by security. Consider Franken a volunteer security guard and frankly, he did the right thing.

Bravo Franken!

[Woody]

Maybe he can borrow hillary's security.

ANy way, let's take stuart smalley, and the lone republican who pushed joan jett, lock'em in a room and see who comes out first.

[Inhale2theChief]

So you're a wanna be batterer? What franken did was Battery.....I don't give a crap how you spin it......

[Alexx]

If you believe that verbal abuse is less abusive than physical abuse, you are an idiot. :wink:

[Inhale2theChief]

And if you believe that tackling someone is appropriate and isn't battery YOU ARE AN IDIOT.........

[Alexx]

But which came first? The tackling is merely to stop the original abuse.

[Inhale2theChief]

Ah so 2 wrongs make a right? sheesh you are irrational

[Alexx]

I think the initial wrong action takes precedence, since, um, it happened first. The action taken to "correct" the initial wrong action would have never happened otherwise.

Are you a lawyer?

What I find most fascinating about courtroom philosophy as you are attempting to invoke is it rarely takes into account adrenaline reaction to a wrong or dangerous action. Courtrooms should be situated in dangerous places, not safe places, so that everyone in the court room can more relate to the reality of an event that they instead judge while sipping capuucino's.

[Tayken]

I think the initial wrong action takes precedence, since, um, it happened first. The action taken to "correct" the initial wrong action would have never happened otherwise.

Are you a lawyer?

What I find most fascinating about courtroom philosophy as you are attempting to invoke is it rarely takes into account adrenaline reaction to a wrong or dangerous action. Courtrooms should be situated in dangerous places, not safe places, so that everyone in the court room can more relate to the reality of an event that they instead judge while sipping capuucino's.

Unless the guy was yelling "Fire", Franken was completely wrong. I hope Franken is sued.

[Fritz the Cat]

Alex-

Serioulsy, you have showm both ignorance and illogical thinking in the only 2 threads I have seen you in.

In this thread you need to learn what the difference is between.

Over yelling and verbal abuse.

And then you need to compare and contrast the harm that can occur with both over yelling and assault and battery.

[Alexx]

Just because you worked for C-BS doesn't make you an expert. You probably never could stand up for anything for fear of losing your job while you worked there. You should be more concerned that you worked in an environment that kept you in fear of losing your job if you didn't do the wrong thing. Denying a mass group of people freedom of speech , especially when they come with a checkbook, is wrong, especially when our own president touts "freedom" in every other sentence out of his mouth.

---------------------------------------

Yelling at someone who you haven't even attempted to speak to first in a civil manner is abuse, pure and simple. I'm sure Franken asked the guy to be quiet, and he refused. The rest is justified.

[Fritz the Cat]

Oh gawd Alexx now you lost me.

you are whining because CBS won't play your liberal organisational slander ad...

and somehow that makes me a lemming.

You know who the lemming is? You. For listening to Moveon and believing they have a case against CBS without knowing the facts and rules regarding advertising.

You followed them blindly and trusted their judegemnt without doing anyindependent research.

Don't you have a cliff to run off of?

[Alexx]

I edited my previous post to make it more to the point, but the bottom line is the most watched event in our country, the super-bowl, and we prevent millions of people, not hundreds of thousands, but millions of people the right to express their feelings.

[Doug]

It is about time some democrats took action, the whores rioting to protest the the recount in Florida should have been pistol whipped.

[Alexx]

LOL!

I think they already were, by the Republicans.

As long as Al Franken warned the guy first, Al was in the right.

[Inhale2theChief]

Courtrooms should be situated in dangerous places, not safe places, so that everyone in the court room can more relate to the reality of an event that they instead judge while sipping capuucino's.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Guess Alexx has never been to LAX Courthouse!!!

And nice try on your excusing an assault/battery....

[Inhale2theChief]

Oh and where the hell does it say Franken warned anyone? You just divine that out of nowhere?

[Alexx]

I'm making an important distinction. If the heckler was first warned, he has no case. If the heckler was not warned, he might have a case.

[Inhale2theChief]

LMAO please go take a first year criminal law course and watch yourself get laughed out of class for such an asinine assertion.......

[Mykel]

LOVE Al Franken.

But no matter how I spin it, tackling someone IS measurably worse than verbally "abusing" someone.

When I agitate for my equal rights as a gay person, for example, I'm not agitating to make right wing Christians change the wording of their bibles, in spite of those words' ability to make me feel "abused."

Far right Christians have the right, just as I do, to make the claim that gays are sinners by mere virtue of being gay, but they do NOT have the right to legally censor ME or legally abridge my own rights to free speech, religion and the press.

If one of them, for example, were to tackle ME for heckling THEM at a far right public rally against gay rights, I would be pissed and probably file a lawsuit. Conversely, if a gay person were to tackle a homophobe for merely exercising his right to free speech, it would be just as wrong.

Ergo, Franken was wrong. He was not a member of the security team, he could have hurt the heckler or been hurt himself, and all he did was damage his and other liberals' credibility.

Mykel

[JackTheReaper]

I'm willing to give Franken a pass on this since politics is a dirty business. After all, if you want dirty, look at what the Republican Filth has done in Iraq to over 500 innocent American troops and 40,000 inncent Iraqis just because Saddam said he'd like to off daddykins.

So much hate and violence. So lttle time.So much need to stop hate speech like Franken tried.

[Fritz the Cat]

And there it is. The inevitable Iraq connection to Frankens acting like an asshole,

Un- Be- lee. va. bull.

[JackTheReaper]

Democrats are playing hardball, that's all, Felix. There's scum in the Oval Office that even Ajax can't get out. I don't blame them.

[Alexx]

The moment you imply that verbal abuse assault is less of a "crime" then physical assault, you are wrong. As for criminal law, yeah, it's criminal what is taught. Once again, our laws are enforced in environments that don't reflect reality.

If Franken warned the guy to quit interfering with Dean, and the guy refused, he needed to be stopped, IMMEDIATELY. The slower the response to stop this guy, the weaker it makes Dean look. Politics are involved in the situation and our laws have something to say about political persecution. Yes, Dean was being politically persecuted by the Heckler.

After the incident we all have opinions on what should have happened, but now we do it in a comfortable environment, that is the hypocrisy of law.

[Fritz the Cat]

Alex-

Where do you get this shit from? It wasn't Al fucking Franken's place or right to stop anybody from doing ANYTHING. And just because you ask someone to stop shouting over you does not give you the right to touch them let alone assault them.

Really, where in the waorld are you getting these fucked up notions? A rational person can not possilby think like you are.

The man had a right (IMO) to speak his mind. he could be asked to leave an h could be escorted out.

And anyways, where the hell do you get the idea he was "verbally assaulting Dean".

Dude, you are one warped motherfucker.

[Tayken]

The moment you imply that verbal abuse assault is less of a "crime" then physical assault, you are wrong. As for criminal law, yeah, it's criminal what is taught. Once again, our laws are enforced in environments that don't reflect reality.

If Franken warned the guy to quit interfering with Dean, and the guy refused, he needed to be stopped, IMMEDIATELY. The slower the response to stop this guy, the weaker it makes Dean look. Politics are involved in the situation and our laws have something to say about political persecution. Yes, Dean was being politically persecuted by the Heckler.

After the incident we all have opinions on what should have happened, but now we do it in a comfortable environment, that is the hypocrisy of law.

It isn't Franken's duty to physically assault someone. If he was warned, then either security or the police would have the right to physically remove him. Franken committed assault. The verbal abuse charge is moot and quite frankly is a crock for this incident.

[Fritz the Cat]

So Jack, you have decided that tow wrongs make a right? How very childish and asinine of you. No wonder you fucking libs aren't gonna get the vote. People can see through this bullshit and realize YOU AREN"T ANYBETTER THAN WHAT WE HAVE.

DUDE, read the quote and try to understand it.


"As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."

- Christopher Dawson

[Excessor]

It's just as bee lee v bull as watching some of the neocons on this board link Bill and Hillary Clinton to every subject, every jot and tittle...

[Alexx]

LOVE Al Franken.

Far right Christians have the right, just as I do, to make the claim that gays are sinners by mere virtue of being gay, but they do NOT have the right to legally censor ME or legally abridge my own rights to free speech, religion and the press.

If one of them, for example, were to tackle ME for heckling THEM at a far right public rally against gay rights, I would be pissed and probably file a lawsuit. Conversely, if a gay person were to tackle a homophobe for merely exercising his right to free speech, it would be just as wrong.

l

Lets say there was an openly gay candidate running for office, and at a rally someone started shouting down the gay candidate as the candidate spoke..... warn, dive, and tackle is the order of the day because people attending the rally didn't attend to hear the harrassing words of someone from the other side (afterall, CBS doesn't have to air the Moveon.org ad...).

Political persecution needs to be stopped as soon as possible because the longer the heckler heckles, the more the speaker loses support and authority. Assault laws are not the only laws to be considered here.
Why do you think the judge has a gavel. "Order in the court" is specifically designed to remind the court that the judge has the ultimate power in the courtroom, but to maintain that power, the judge needs to act swiftly at times. Swiftly at times, that is the key issue here. Time was of the essence.

You wouldn't want to see fireman to stop at all red traffic lights and wait until the light is green while on the way to a fire would you? You expect everyone else on the road to cooperate and pull over so they can get to the fire quickly and put out the fire.

Thank you Al "Fireman" Franken for putting out the fire in a quick and efficient manner and in the process you stamped out political persecution, literally.

[Fritz the Cat]

Alexx,

you are a fucking fruitckake. Funny stuff.

Warn. dive. Tackle.

And that is justified. What an idiot.

It is America you jackass, you are given the right to speak your mind man.

[Inhale2theChief]

Warn Dive tackle? lmao how about this for you....hooked,pushed and booked....is what should happen to anyone who pulls that crap franken did.

[JackTheReaper]

Right on Excessor ....... politics, that's all. Pugs want to dish it out but then like the true chicken excrement they are they can't take it being dished back to them.

Give what you expect to be given back --- the golden rule.

Live by the sword, die by the sword --- same thing.

Kill innocent kids and Iraqis for revenge --- expect defeat this Nov.

[Alexx]

If C-BS can stop Moveon.org from using their airwaves, then Al Franken can stomp a heckler from using democratic airspace at a democratic rally for republican purposes, as long as Franken warned him first.

The key here is time. Your position would only have validity if you could prove that the speaker would not be harmed politically if it took 1 minute or 10 minutes to shut the heckler up. Your avoidance of this aspect nullifies your position of assault. You aren't assault someone if time is of the essence and someone stands to lose the longer the heckler heckles.

The longer the heckler heckled Dean adversely affected Dean Politically, then Franken had the right to stop the heckler as quickly as possible, as long as Franken warned him first.

Time, Time, Time.

[Tayken]

If C-BS can stop Moveon.org from using their airwaves, then Al Franken can stomp a heckler from using democratic airspace at a democratic rally, as long as he warned him first.

The key here is time. Your position would only have validity if you could prove that the speaker would not be harmed politically if it took 1 minute or 10 minutes to shut the heckler up. Your avoidance of this aspect nullifies your position. If the amount of time the heckler heckled did affect Dean Politically, then Franken had the right to protect Dean, as long as he first warned the heckler.

Franken better talk to his lawyer and hope this guy doesn't file a lawsuit. Alexx you are being totally silly with your reasoning.

[Fritz the Cat]

I gott a get out of this thread. You two are the dumbest humans I have ever seen.

[Inhale2theChief]

Falsely yelling fire causes unneeded panic,which could cause people to rush the doors and trample others.............show me the panic created by some hecklers........annoyance is not panic

[Fair &Balanced Who Ca]

Hey man, Franken shouldn't have done that, and I think it's wrong. Violence is never the answer to anything. He should have had security escort the guy out, and give him rabbit punches to the body on the way, being very careful not to leave any bruises, like Bush's guys would.

TayKen, that's sarcasm, in case you're about to "sting" me on that last point.

Franken was wrong, Franken was wrong, Franken was wrong.

There. I've said it.

But it should awaken you Rightwing people that Liberals are NOT going to be anybody's whipping boy, and some of your guys have been employing thuggish tactics for awhile. And while that was going on, guys like you on the internet have laughed and applauded it, and reminded everyone day after day, post after post, that the liberals are a bunch of pansy pushovers, and you tough Rightwingers have the right to shout down anyone you want.

It happens on cable TV, it happens on the radio, and it happens right here on the internet.

So, the part of me that is NOT speaking as a responsible adult wants to cheer Franken on, and say, "YEAH! GO GET 'EM AL!"

That's not sensible though, because the next time, Al's gonna meet up with someone who is ready for him. He is a marked man.

I will join all you Republicans in denouncing Franken's behavior, but do me a favor. Give the guy a break if someone messes him up. He deserves to be ostracized a bit for this incident, but not beaten.

On the other hand, he may have just done it to spike book sales.

I still think it's funny how bent out of shape the right is on this board, calling everybody hypocrites if they don't just want Franken's hide. So he was wrong. So he did a bad thing.

How the FUCK does that reflect on liberals in general? I've never voted for Al Franken. All I've ever said about him is that he's damned funny, and that he's done a good job of making himself a magnet for Right-Wing vitriol, ala O'Reilly and Coulter, and all the other pseudo-fascists that have been CRAMMED DOWN MY THROAT 24/7.

You fucking schoolmarms on this thread are a big laugh. You all stood behind the "STOP THE VOTE" thugs in Florida, didn't you? Well, who didn't? Anybody? Every ONE of those guys now has a high-paying job with prominent Republicans. Just a bunch of American Voters, that's what you lot said about THAT whole bunch of bullshit.

Now this is just commentary, and not any kind of attempt to debate, in case anybody's got all kinds of righteous questions to put to me. It's my comment on this subject, and merely an opinion.

Just wanted to get that out of the way, because I may not be back before the thread dies.

[Inhale2theChief]

Whocares......they were friggin Larouche democrats for chrissakes.......why is it you lefties keep tryin to make this out to be a republican that freanken tackled?I don't car eif it was a repub ,a dem ,a martian ,a venusian that franken tackled.....It was wrong as you stated....and shouldn't be allowed to happen under EITHER party.

[Tayken]

Whocares......they were friggin Larouche democrats for chrissakes.......why is it you lefties keep tryin to make this out to be a republican that freanken tackled?I don't car eif it was a repub ,a dem ,a martian ,a venusian that franken tackled.....It was wrong as you stated....and shouldn't be allowed to happen under EITHER party.

Exactly. You made my point for me. FBWC seems to think these people were Republicans.

[Alexx]

Not acknowledging the time issue is just a form of denial of the political process. The longer the person heckled, the more it hurt the person who was speaking, pure and simple.

Somebody, be it Franken or someone else, had the right to warn the person to shut up and then if the warning went unheeded, they had the right to quiet the person as quickly as possible.

[Tayken]

Not acknowledging the time issue is just a form of denial of the political process. The longer the person heckled, the more it hurt the person who was speaking, pure and simple.

Somebody, be it Franken or someone else, had the right to warn the person to shut up and then if the warning went unheeded, they had the right to quiet the person as quickly as possible.

It doesn't work that way Alexx. The person or persons should be asked to leave. If they refuse to do so, then only security or the cops should escort them out. Franken has no business taking matters into his own hands. I personally hope he is sued.

[gr8dane]

Good ol' Al, defender of Freedom Franken.

He knows bullying is now widespread in both political spectrums:

In a January 23 Salon.com interview, former CIA officer Larry Johnson
was asked why the CIA seems to be openly revolting against this administration, given that political pressure has always been exerted on the organization by previous administrations of both parties?
Johnson responded:

"Put it this way, with this White House, I see an outright pattern of bullying: Gen. Eric Shinseki, the former Army chief of staff, warned that the U.S. was going to need several hundred thousand troops in Iraq, and he's attacked for that, and basically told that he doesn't know what he's talking about -- and he's fired essentially a year before he's out of that job. When it's time for him to retire, not a single senior representative of the Department of Defense or White House leadership is there for his retirement. Then there was Thomas White, the secretary of the Army who was forced out. There was a senior CIA analyst by the name of Fulton Armstrong who was attacked, using leaks to the press, which alleged that he was disloyal and somehow under the influence of the Cuban government. There was a prosecutor [ousted from] the Department of Justice who had warned that John Walker Lindh's father had hired a lawyer and that [the DOJ] needed to consider the Miranda rights.

So what we've seen is a repeated pattern across different agencies, all with the apparent sanction of the White House, of going after anybody who's a critic, or who's seen as not being in tune with the administration's message. When people raise legitimate issues that may not be consistent with existing policy, instead of conducting a fair intellectual assessment of those issues, those people are attacked and their character is impugned."
"I've been told that even a number of Republican members want to sign on to the efforts launched by Rep. Russ Holt [D-N.J. - regarding the Plame investigation], who's a former intelligence analyst at the State Department -- but they're saying 'If we do, Dennis Hastert is going to have our ass.' So, clearly the intimidation and the fear factor continues.

I believe there are some Republicans out there who recognize that this is wrong, who recognize they need to take a stand against it. To allow the partisanship to go on ... you know, sometimes it's like dealing with a bunch of 3-year-old kids: Everyone's arguing over who hit who last."

--------------------------------
Yeah, Al that was wrong,...

but you're still funny.

[Peter Angelo]

Revenge of the nerds.

Imagine!

If we have reached the point that violence is breaking out it should be fun at election time.

We are at one of history's intersections.

Our economy is bankrupt, and that is when the banks battle.

A new scam has to evolve and it is always painful - but interesting (in the Chinese curse sense of the word).

Book sales may have had something to do with it - but that's business - and the business of America is business.

[Kim]

Ah so 2 wrongs make a right? sheesh you are irrational

That argument only works when a Repub is using it to defend their actions.

I will agree that Franken was wrong. As if Dean doesn't have enough to contend with the "liberal" media showing his "Dean Scream" 15,000 times in the last week; now he has to deal with one of his supporters getting violent. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

[Em]

Whocares....you're my personal hero. Nice post.

I have to agree, with you, too. I LOVE Al Franken. Love him. Can't agree with him, but can't persecute him either. I mean, I can't pass judgement anyways until I hear more about this story. Does anyone have another source on this? I mean this stuff has a way of getting greatly distorted. And what did that heckler say exactly? I'm not trying to excuse Al, but it might explain things a bit.

[Bluecoller-eddie]

.

Alexx
I would have done the exact same thing as Franken if I had been there.

Bravo .Alexx..
The smart aleck punk should have his goddam teeth kicked down his throat.
He looks for trouble, he deserves what he gets, period.

The scum-bags are over on another thread crying for the asshole.
I posted the below on the other thread


............R O T F L M F A O

........several supporters :!:
....One liberal against several assholes :!:
Sounds like a fair fight to me :!: :!:

What's the matter boys, don't like the FACT that a liberal has
bigger BALLS than the whole bunch of you dickless scum-bags put together.

....Way to go AL :!:
My kind of MAN...................

You dickless scum-bags like to PLAY heeroo from 6000 miles away


The truth is..... pResident craven coward is a goddam liar, period.
......Iraq is innocent of 911
The problem with republicans is....
...........YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH...

-------------- bluecoller -- the grumpy old
kraut ----
.
.

[Inhale2theChief]

There is a history of Larouche supporters heckling at the dem debates,rallies etc......I don't recall anyone being tackled at those events...as a matter of fact they were escorted out and a few have been arrested ......

[Islanders_for_the_cup_04]

There is a history of Larouche supporters heckling at the dem debates,rallies etc......I don't recall anyone being tackled at those events...as a matter of fact they were escorted out and a few have been arrested ......
You know something? I'm starting to wonder if there is more to the story than what we've read. I read three different articles and they all tell the story a little differently each time. I wonder if we'll get a more elaborate one tommorow.
There was one written that said frankens glasses were broken at the bridge of his nose. They also differ in telling when and where the incident ocurred. Did anyone het any quotes from eyewitnesses?

[Islanders_for_the_cup_04]

Franken emerged from the crowd and charged one male protester, grabbing him with a bear hug from behind and slamming him onto the floor.
Another article states that the man was being escorted out by security when this happened.

[Inhale2theChief]

Only article I've seen is the NY Post story.You have the links to those other stories ? I'd like to see them if ya do.

[Islanders_for_the_cup_04]

Only article I've seen is the NY Post story.You have the links to those other stories ? I'd like to see them if ya do.
OK. But I'm gonna go research for them and see if I can find them.
BTW The NY post is kind of a tabloid paper. I do read it but only for the sports section. This is despite the fact that they fired Wallace Mathews one of my favorite sports writers!!!!!!!

[mickster]

The NY Post is Fox News on toilet paper.

[Islanders_for_the_cup_04]

http://news.bostonherald.com/election2004/election.bg?articleid=681Franken fights back vs. Dean dissenter
By David R. Guarino and Elisabeth J. Beardsley
Tuesday, January 27, 2004

Al Franken may be used to stand-up comedy, but yesterday it was more like knockdown-drag out comedy.

The sometime-comic, full-time liberal Democrat took on an outspoken Lyndon LaRouche supporter who loudly interrupted a rally for former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean in Manchester, N.H., yesterday.

The protester shouted, ``You're not a real Democrat, You're going to lose,'' and was being ushered out of the Palace Theater when Franken - in town to pundit and spin for various television stations - tackled the unidentified man.

In the process, Franken broke his trademark glasses right at the bridge of his nose.

After tearing in to a back room without his specs, Franken emerged a bit red-faced and with bright yellow tape holding his glasses together after the event.

On a side note, apparently the LaRouche supporters favor Bay State Sen. John F. Kerry of all people.

Shouting down Dean for not fully taking on Vice President Dick Cheney, the protester several times yelled, ``Only Lyndon LaRouche and John Kerry are Democrats. You're not a Democrat.''

Somehow, we're sure Kerry appreciates the support.

BTW I think the Herald and the post are owned by the same corporation.

[Gerry]

It was a sight more impressive with Franken taking on the heckler than if a security team had done so. He may be subject to a charge of battery but I dare say the jerk won't file against Franken. Good on Franken :lol:

[Fritz the Cat]

Ok. Next time a liberla is hecklig a republican. I hope they shoot him. Filet his mother and ass rape his little sister. Serves him right, huh?

[Islanders_for_the_cup_04]

Ok. Next time a liberla is hecklig a republican. I hope they shoot him. Filet his mother and ass rape his little sister. Serves him right, huh?
Fritz what the fuck does this have to do with liberals and conservatives?

[Gerry]

***Ok. Next time a liberla is hecklig a republican. I hope they shoot him. Filet his mother and ass rape his little sister. Serves him right, huh?***

A bit of hysteria Kitty?

[katie]

even if he did file,he would have to prove DAMAGES and only 50% at the most would be granted, because he
was responsible for that action happening to him by
being a heckler inan emoyionally charged arena.

[Fritz the Cat]

Katie-

he does not have to prove damages to get Franken arrested for assault.

As far as suing for cash, he has to prove damages.

[Fritz the Cat]

Fritz what the fuck does this have to do with liberals and conservatives?

EVERYTHING islander. that was the main reason I started this thread.

you can't tell me that if this was reversed and A Republican candidate was getting heckled, and a republican audience member slammed the heckler to the ground. That the liberals of this forum wouldn't be in here whining and crying and moaning about the NAZI party and the nasty pugs and their violent ways.

It so happens that it was a liberal, so all you guys just shrug and come up with excuses for the fucking guy.

Plain and simple double fucking standards.

Do yu remember the heckler in the upper tier of the shopping mall that was yelling "blood for oil" when bush was speaking about 5 months back? She was escorted down the hall to a distance and then let go.

And the liberals I know where bitching about that. freedom of speech and her right to dissent and how foul it was of the BA to stiffle her opinion.

Then it happens to you guys and the guy gets attacked and all the sudden its a blind eye.

Hilarious. How you guys post and keep straight faces is beyond me.

[katie]

its not assault.If he tackled him without threats its battery. Asfor the criminal charge,the heckler could not
determine if charges would be pressed. Law enforcement and the district attorney would have to hear the releventFACTS

[illcommandante]

Al could have found out the guy's number and spoken with Ignacio. It could have beem handled quietly.

[Islanders_for_the_cup_04]

you can't tell me that if this was reversed and A Republican candidate was getting heckled, and a republican audience member slammed the heckler to the ground. That the liberals of this forum wouldn't be in here whining and crying and moaning about the NAZI party and the nasty pugs and their violent ways.
Didnt we go over this on another thread? why are you repeating yourself again?
This has nothing to do with liberals and Conservatives. It was between two Democrats. Another thing , if you hate the cycle so much what are participating in it? If you hate it when it is done to a republican dont bitch when a liberal does it. Thats called hypocricey!!!
Also when we go over the free speach thing on another thread and resolve it , then you bring it up on another and continue the assault it makes you look like a huge phoney!!!!

[Fritz the Cat]

Katie-

What proof does ther have to be...Franken admitted to the crime in thenewspaper.

as·sault ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-sôlt)
n.
A violent physical or verbal attack.

A military attack, such as one launched against a fortified area or place.
The concluding stage of an attack in which close combat occurs with the enemy.
Law.
An unlawful threat or attempt to do bodily injury to another.
The act or an instance of unlawfully threatening or attempting to injure another.



[/b]

[PassingThru]

First, here are two more accounts of this incident; one is a news report from CNN, the other a commentary from National Review Online.

************************************************** ***********
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/27/elec04.prez.democrats.larouche/
LaRouche supporters disrupt Democrats

MANCHESTER, New Hampshire (CNN) -- Followers of perennial presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche interrupted a campaign event for former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean on Monday before being drowned out by Dean supporters and removed from the room with the assistance of comedian Al Franken.

As Dean was addressing a crowd in Manchester, the fans of LaRouche -- who is something of an outcast in the Democratic Party for his extremist views -- began screaming that Dean is "a liar" and not a Democrat. They said the only candidates telling the truth are LaRouche and Sen. John Kerry, the apparent front-runner in the race.

The crowd began cheering "Howard Dean, Howard Dean," drowning out the LaRouche supporters as they were removed from the room.

Franken, a comedian and self-described liberal well-known for his attacks on the Bush administration and conservative-leaning media, helped carry out one of the disrupters. In the process, Franken's glasses were knocked off his face and broke in two.

Putting them back together with electrical tape, he quipped he had been "deputized" by Dean's security.

LaRouche supporters also heckled Sen. Joe Lieberman at a town hall meeting at Milly's Tavern in Manchester Monday evening.

Observers said the LaRouche crowd was forcibly removed by Lieberman supporters and Capitol Hill security staff who guard the senator.

Several people in the audience said they were completely unaware that there had been any disruption, but the Manchester Police were summoned to the scene and responded en masse.

Earlier, at a Kerry event, a woman asked the candidate, "Will the Democratic candidates tell us about the American situation in the global economy? Will you? And if not, why?"

"I think you've asked that question about three different places we've been, on behalf of Lyndon LaRouche," Kerry responded before stating his stances on international trade and domestic job growth.

CNN's Jeanne Meserve and Sasha Johnson contributed to this report.


************************************************** ***********
http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200401270912.asp

January 27, 2004, 9:12 a.m.
Dems Take New Hampshire
The final tour.

By Deroy Murdock

MANCHESTER, N.H. — Granite State Democrats were treated to a virtual blizzard of retail politics Monday. In vans, buses, and even a helicopter, the Democratic presidential contenders raced from just north of the Massachusetts border to just south of the Canadian frontier frantically looking for votes. Opinion polls put springs in their steps as the race seemed to tighten for the top two spots between Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts and former Vermont governor Howard Dean while General Wesley Clark and senators John Edwards of North Carolina and Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut wrestled for the bronze medal in the nation's first primary.

High noon on a cold, crisp, perfectly sunny Monday saw Dean on stage at the Palace Theater on Hanover Street here. After nearly self-immolating in what has become known as his "I have a scream" speech after placing third in the Iowa caucuses a week ago, Dean was a picture of cool resolve.

After being introduced by a perfectly eloquent Martin Sheen — who observed that "One man with courage is a majority" — Dean took to the stage with his wife, Judy. Until last week, she was known as Judith Steinberg and seldom seen. Dean's campaign schedule now refers to her as "Dr. Judy Dean." She joined her fellow M.D. husband at yesterday's first three events.

"Let me thank President Bartlett," Governor Dean quipped, referring to Sheen's character on NBC's West Wing. In a modulated, relaxed, and steady tone, Dean spoke to a capacity crowd at the Palace. Some 500 or so people filled nearly every seat. The aisles were packed with voters, activists and journalists. Green signs and purple banners reflected his endorsement by AFSCME and SEIU, two major public-service workers' unions. At least 29 TV cameras recorded the moment.

"You can't trust right-wing Republicans with your money," Dean said, neither bellowing nor screaming. What he called George W. Bush's "credit-card presidency," Dean predicted, would invoice tomorrow's grandchildren for the massive spending and deficits today.

Fair enough, but Dean called on a young man in the balcony to offer his story. He said that he moved to Vermont and worked as a dishwasher. Thanks to Vermont's big-government health system, "I got to see a doctor for $2 and a dentist for $3, and I still got a lollipop." The crowd laughed and applauded. The man added: "Some people heard Dean scream and ran away. I heard Dean scream, and I woke up."

The question obviously occurs: If it costs this man's dentist more than $3 of his time and materials to drill his patient's teeth, who picks up the rest of that bill? The tooth fairy?

Dean graciously accepted a brand-new stethoscope from a husband-and-wife pair of physicians who support him. He then took questions from the audience about appointing women to his Cabinet, curbing teen pregnancy, and unraveling the Gordian knot that is Palestine.

One questioner then ignored the instructions to use a microphone and started shouting from the audience.

"Why are you covering up for Dick Cheney? You are going to lose!" he screamed. "Drop out of the race. You're no Democrat. Only Lyndon LaRouche and John Kerry are real Democrats."

After ranting away for a few more moments, Dean's security staff and a few Deaniacs managed to yank this crank into the back of the auditorium.

But just then, a second protester stood up and began his own high-volume tirade.

"Dean's a liar!" he hollered.

At that point, comedian Al Franken rose from among the journalists and others near the stage and said, "Let's get him out of here."

Franken and a few others hustled the second man outside. As they did so, the first ill-mannered LaRouchite reemerged, this time standing in the balcony to the left of the proscenium, bellowing as before and looking ominously like John Wilkes Boothe just before he leapt from the balcony onto the stage of Ford's Theater and landed with a bang in the history books.

Throughout all this commotion, Howard Dean's fuse stayed long and moist. He focused on the questioner who had the floor, somehow discerned her question through the clamor and gave a coherent answer about Iran's mullahs while bedlam prevailed around him. Perhaps exhaustion and a cold had tempered Dean. Maybe he had drilled into deep reserves of self-discipline. In any case, Dean remained refreshingly composed as two clowns tried to turn a successful campaign stop into a one-ring circus.

After Dean thanked the crowd and waved goodbye, someone approached Franken who had returned to his spot at the front end of the right aisle. The Saturday Night Live veteran's trademark horn-rimmed glasses now were held together in the middle with tape. They broke as Franken foiled the attempted Palace coup.

"I never thought of you as a bouncer," the man said. "Maybe they could pay you do that."

Franken replied: "I think we security guards deserve a working wage."

[Fair &Balanced Who Ca]

you can't tell me that if this was reversed and A Republican candidate was getting heckled, and a republican audience member slammed the heckler to the ground. That the liberals of this forum wouldn't be in here whining and crying and moaning about the NAZI party and the nasty pugs and their violent ways.


Now I get it. You're grouchy about all that Nazi stuff.

I'm not kidding man, I've had some Republican stalkers that were true whackjobs, and God help you if you had a Gore/Lieberman yard sign in Campaign 2000. I'm afraid your side still has the upper hand when it comes to thuggery.

Regardless of these were LaRouche plants or had they been Republican Freeper types, Leftists are going to start turning more violent.

They've been pushed around enough. Now I'm not saying that's a reflection of the Left as a whole; my point is simply that there are more and more liberals who are tired of being bullied.

Why whine and cry about it? Why not DO something about it?

Franken didn't hit the guy with a lead pipe, like most of the big politicians would; in fact I'm not hearing much about him causing any physical pain at all.

I submit once more that you guys are frothing at the mouth over an incident that is strange, and kind of funny.

Once more, Al Franken in no way represents the Democratic Party, or liberals in general. The guy's a comedian.

And no wonder I didn't know what pary LaRouche was from. Doesn't this guy consistently get like 1% of the vote, or something? And hasn't he been running since the sixties? Who the hell pays attention to him?

[Alexx]

Well Fritz, the only way Mr. Booth could have been stopped before murdering Lincoln would have been if he had been "assaulted". Your overdramatization of the word assault is melodramatic.

Now when Clinton lied about a BJ, now that was something to get yourself all worked up about.

[Fritz the Cat]

Alexx,

What the hell are you babbling about? Assaulting someone to stop them from murdering somone else is not against the law.

Assaulting someone becase you don't like what they are saying or how they are syaing it is against the law.

Dude, I am being very serious here, you look dumb, quit while you are still in the game and try another thread. You can not reason your way around this, Franken broke the law.

[Fritz the Cat]

Your overdramatization of the word assault is melodramatic.

you can't be serious here. Franken's actions are in line with the definition. He attack another person with the intent ot threaten and harm them. ASSAULT.

[Tayken]

Your overdramatization of the word assault is melodramatic.

you can't be serious here. Franken's actions are in line with the definition. He attack another person with the intent ot threaten and harm them. ASSAULT.

Agreed Fritz. Picking someone up in a bear hug and slamming them to the floor is assault. There is no mistaken identity of who committed this act of violence. Let us hope that this LaRouche follower makes Franken pay dearly for this act of violence.

Shame on the liberals on this board who apologize for Franken's actions.

[Kim]

Ok. Next time a liberla is hecklig a republican. I hope they shoot him. Filet his mother and ass rape his little sister. Serves him right, huh?

Fritz,

Just a wee bit heavy-handed, don't you think? A bit over-the-top? Stay cool guy, okay? :(

[Fritz the Cat]

Kimmy-

It was for shock value. Heavy handed, I agree. I'll watch it next time.

:P

[PassingThru]

In the National Review Online piece, you'll notice that "At least 29 TV cameras" were at this event. With that number of tv cameras present, had something as dramatic as Franken body-slamming a heckler to the ground occurred, I think someone would have had it on tape. (Especially as is WAS Stuart Smalley - who could resist?) But then again, maybe the body-slamming didn't happen until after the heckler was already subdued and carried outside where only members of Murdoch's print media were available to observe.

The quotes attributed to Franken are an enigma. If he didn't take the action described, why would he be saying such things as "I got down low and took his legs out," and "I was a wrestler so I used a wrestling move" as quoted by Murdoch print media? Is it possible that this was a bit of male puffery, a Smalley affirmation, or - imagine - a self-deprecating joke from a comedian? Could it be that the two fell to the ground? Then again, if a New York Post reporter covering the event was interviewing Franken after the tussle, with broken glasses, why wasn't a press photographer with him for pictures? Why is there a stock archival picture of Franken accompanying the story rather than one displaying those taped and broken glasses? If you get the impression I'm a little skeptical of Murdoch media coverage, give yourself an A.

When (and if) a filmstrip hits the airwaves or the net, though, someone please let me know. It should be entertaining viewing.

If Franken had taken violent and inappropriate action, such as unilaterally tackling and body slamming this individual to the ground as implied, he would be wrong, wrong, wrong as F&BWC iterated. It would infuriate me to hear Rush Limbaugh had displayed the same type of hubris under similar circumstances, so I wouldn't give Franken a pass.

But here is where I might give both Rush and Al a break: if the security personnel at the event were sufficiently compromised that they couldn't both protect the candidate and remove the number of disruptive hecklers, and they assisted in the removal of hecklers with the minimal required force, I would give them a pass. It would seem from the one article that the security guards did have their hands full and this might actually have been the case. And both coverages have Franken as only one of a few to escort this heckler out of the hall.

[Islanders_for_the_cup_04]

Pssing thru thanks for the links. Like I said it sounds like there are many versions of what acctually happened. Could it be that some media sources might have blown this whole thing up?

[Fritz the Cat]

Pssing thru thanks for the links. Like I said it sounds like there are many versions of what acctually happened. Could it be that some media sources might have blown this whole thing up?

LOL. Maybe. But of course that lead us to wondering what articles the left posts that are media "blow ups"

[Mykel]

the longer the heckler heckles, the more the speaker loses support and authority. - Alexx

Alexx,

Which is precisely the reason I am against BushCo for keeping liberal anti-war protesters in "free speech zones" far from the President. If the protesters were allowed to "heckle" him up close, he would soon lose support and authority.

Why, then, do you think it would be appropriate to censor a lone heckler? Aren't we liberal anti-war protesters some of the loudest hecklers on the planet? And isn't one of the biggest beefs we have with the Right their refusal to let us heckle the President or anyone else in an upclose and personal way?

Remember the old song, "Sticks and stones"? It means that words can never hurt us. You have now concluded that they do.

I urge you to ponder the long term ramifications of your conclusion.

Mykel

[Fritz the Cat]

Mykel...

Dude. Nice work.

[PassingThru]

IFTC04 and Fritz: Yes, who covers a story will often dictate what emphasis is put on it. I started searching for as many legitimate (as in known organizations) media accounts I could find on this. The following excerpt is from NewsMax. Seems Franken may have gotten a leg up. Gotta love the title.

************************************************** ***********
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/1/27/94253.shtml
Tuesday, Jan. 27, 2004 9:04 a.m. EST

Wild Man Franken Assaults Dean Critic

The altercation was witnessed by NBC Washington bureau chief Tim Russert, who called Franken's antics "unbelievable."

"One of the Lyndon LaRouche guys got up and started screaming and yelling," Russert told radioman Don Imus Tuesday morning.

"The press guy for Dean tried to grab onto him and remove him and he couldn't do it. All of a sudden, Al Franken jumped out of the media gallery, ran down and grabbed this guy on the leg and started wrestling him to the ground.

"It was unbelievable. He was really into it," the NBC News star said.
************************************************** ***********

I do find myself disappointed there is no film clip. Was Russert's camera man too mesmerized to focus? Perfect stuff for SNL's News Update. But note here again: the person who was unsuccessfully attempting to corral this protestor alone was Dean's press secretary. Where was the security contingent? Perhaps outside with those other individuals. Seems Franken was only lending a hand.

[Fritz the Cat]

Passing-

I don't quite think NewsMax is the org to get any kind of unbiased report from.

[Islanders_for_the_cup_04]

Passing-

I don't quite think NewsMax is the org to get any kind of unbiased report from.
Fritz, Neither is the post. You may as well read the Enquirer for an unbiased news source. The point isnt the news sourde anyway Passing is showing you how this story gets told in many different ways. Dont you think its odd that each paper gives another version.
Kinda sounds like the guy Franken went after was dong more than just shouting doesnt it? The best way to get information is to read all versions of the story and work your way from their. Try to figure out what conflicts and what is consistant.
We saw one story where they said the guy was in the middle of security escort to another where the guy was running all over the place. Interesting no?

[PassingThru]

Fritz -

I should clarify. Quoting from NewsMax.com is not meant as an endorsement of their objectivity on my part. Indeed, I know better. Still, they are quoting from a radio interview with an NBC tv newscaster. Personalities all, but known and verifiable down the line.

You may have noticed that I didn't rely on only one accounting, choosing instead to survey what was out there. Of all the possible coverage of what actually smacks of being a major story ("Celebrity Runs Amok"), one neutral account from CNN and one measured account from conservative National Review Online are out there to balance four sensationalized accounts from largely imflammatory right wing media groups. Could it be it is actually a non-story? Watch for further developments. 8)

(Thanks IFTC04. You got it.)

[Kim]

[Tim Russert...]NBC News star said.

Now are news anchors are called stars? :shock:

This was a prime example of the bias of reporting that was discussed in another thread here the other day. M-Theory had declared that reporting on cable news like Fox was biased. Woody told him that without actually watching Fox (which M-T admitted he did not watch), he could not possibly have a valid opinion on Fox's bias.

To a degree, this thread proves M-Theory correct.

Check out the battle in the thread:

http://www.ariannaonline.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4549

[katie]

Tim Russert=General Electric=war machinr (jet engines) and a soaring profit this year !

[hardcorpsI]

Personally, unless the guy was hurt and I it doesn't appear that he was, I don't think there should be any charges against Franken. I think he should be tried in the court of public opinion instead.

OTH, if somebody had tackled Franken, you can bet that guy would be sitting in jail and looking at a lawsuit.

[Kim]

Personally, unless the guy was hurt and I it doesn't appear that he was, I don't think there should be any charges against Franken. I think he should be tried in the court of public opinion instead.

OTH, if somebody had tackled Franken, you can bet that guy would be sitting in jail and looking at a lawsuit.

HC,

You started out so good. Reasoned and logical.

Then you blew it in the end. Mighty big assumption you make.

[hardcorpsI]

It is an assumption and of course I have no way of really knowing how Franken would react, but I just can't see that guy letting something go.

[Alexx]

the longer the heckler heckles, the more the speaker loses support and authority. - Alexx

Alexx,

Remember the old song, "Sticks and stones"? It means that words can never hurt us. You have now concluded that they do.

Mykel

I've never believed in that saying. At best, it was strictly to help kids cope while growing up. It's very important to not be stopped in life by the callous word of another, but on the other hand, verbal abuse is just as bad as physical abuse, so the saying is flawed.

[Tayken]

Tim Russert=General Electric=war machinr (jet engines) and a soaring profit this year !

You obviously own no GE stock. You really should research a little more before making an idiot of yourself.

[Mykel]

But Alexx,

The sentiment you express, though with noble intentions, is now biting liberals hard with accusations of anti-Americanism, treason and even, God-forbid, anti-Semitism, all because we "heckle" American hegemony, Bush/Cheney conflicts of interest and Israeli military brutality against the Palestinians.

They aren't letting us get our message out precisely because they feel we are mere hecklers.

Once society goes down the road of preventing words---even seemingly hurtful words---from being spoken, it is not long before virtually everything we say is monitored and censored.

I'm a big boy. I can take it. If someone heckles me, I just heckle back. If security needs to be called, then let them do the escorting out.

Tackling someone---if indeed, it's true that Franken did this, though now, I'm not so sure with all the different accounts---is simply inappropriate.

Heckling, however, is SPEECH.

Heckling is GOOD.

Heckling is a funny word. Say it with me.

HECKLEHECKLEHECKLEHECKLEHECKLE.

See?

Mykel

[maria]

Mykel,

I agree with you for the most part, however i do feel that there should be mandates on protesting. Case in point being the abortion clinics and "pro-lifer" protests. i don't feel that they should be allowed to protest right in front of the doors of clinics. i don't think they should be miles away either. I think everyone has a right to protest as long as there is a fair distance between that which is protested and the protesters.

I don't feel franken should have tackled they guy, if he did, I do feel that that is left up to the security.

[ellena]

i think there's a big diff between heckling private citizens VS. selected public officials, etc.

[Alexx]

It appears it was the appearance of a second heckler in the grassy knoll that
sent Franken into a tizzy. I'd call two hecklers an insurgency.

[PassingThru]

First we have the Manchester Union Leader from NH with data gathering after the fact. Interesting testimony from the theater's manager, and inclusion of Franken having put hands on two hecklers with a statement that he didn't do so in the first case until after he had been elbowed by the heckler and his glasses knocked off.

Note though that this story concludes with "Franken told the New York Post . . . " (emphasis mine) rather than "The New York Post quotes Franken as saying . . . " It is an important distinction as, unless members of the Union Leader Staff were present for the Post/Franken interview, they can't possibly know if what the Post printed is indeed what Franken told them.

Journalism today is getting very sloppy in such matters.

************************************************** ***********
News - January 28, 2004
http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=32449

Al Franken rousts
heckler from Dean rally
Union Leader Staff

AL FRANKEN
MANCHESTER — Liberal activist and comedian Al Franken helped eject a boisterous heckler from a crowded Howard Dean rally at the Palace Theatre Monday, the theater’s manager said yesterday.

The heckler began yelling from the rear of the theater while the Democratic Presidential hopeful was taking questions from the audience, theater manager Peter Ramsey said.

Two members of Dean’s security team immediately moved in on the man, who shoved and elbowed them, Ramsey said.

“He was screaming. He was out of control,” Ramsey said.

Ramsey said he went over to help calm the situation and also got elbowed and pushed.

“All of a sudden, I looked to my right, and Al Franken was grabbing onto this man’s back,” Ramsey said.

“He (Franken) gave him a hefty Patriots block. He should be a Patriot,” Ramsey said.

“I never met Al Franken before. He is now my new hero,” Ramsey said of the former “Saturday Night Live” writer.

Ramsey said a news photographer later told him Franken reacted to being elbowed by the protester, who knocked his glasses off.

When a second heckler — apparently working in tandem with the first — emerged from the audience, Dean security men and Franken went over to deal with him while the first protester headed to the balcony, Ramsey said.

While Ramsey pursued the first man to the balcony, he said, he saw Franken and three other men escort the second heckler out the stage door.

Once in the balcony, Ramsey encountered a more disturbing sight.

The protester had clambered over two or three people and had perched himself on the balcony railing.

“I thought he was going to jump. He was screaming at Dean. I was scared for a minute that he was going to jump on the stage and attack Dean,” Ramsey said.

One New Hampshire voter sitting in the balcony said the heckler “kind of barreled through like a Patriots fullback.”

“The way he moved, I thought he was going to jump or something,” Wendy Branch of Northwood said. “Even if he didn’t intend to jump, he was setting himself up for a fall. It was a little alarming.”

Ramsey said the heckler left quietly after Ramsey threatened to call the police. But Ramsey figured the more likely reason the protester left was that few television cameras were set up in the balcony.

Ramsey said Dean’s staff told him the protesters were supporters of fringe Presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche.

Franken told the New York Post he body-slammed the demonstrator to the ground.

“I got down low and took his legs out,” Franken told the newspaper.

Franken said he is not backing Dean, but merely wanted to protect free-speech rights.

“I would have done it if he was a Dean supporter at a Kerry rally,” he told the Post.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And the GOPUSA chose a Talon News piece which is an embellished amalgam of the Post and Russert comments. Notice where the Post had Franken simply "saying", Talon News "reporter" Jimmy Moore has him "exclaiming". There is a connotative difference between the two words, and the second conveys a cognitive sense of heightened emotion. Ah, yes, the art of communicating . . .

************************************************** ***********
http://www.gopusa.com/news/2004/january/0128_franken_dean_heckler.shtml

Frazzled Franken Manhandles Dean Heckler; Says He was Protecting Free Speech
By Jimmy Moore
Talon News
January 28, 2004

MANCHESTER, NH (Talon News) -- Liberal author and soon-to-be radio talk show host Al Franken physically manhandled a heckler during a speech by Democrat presidential candidate Howard Dean on Monday.

The New York Post reports that Franken, who recently signed a one-year deal with Progressive Media to host a live, three-hour liberal radio show to apparently challenge Rush Limbaugh, broke his glasses in the confrontation, but was not hurt after charging at a male supporter of Democrat presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche when he began yelling at Dean.

Franken, who said he was "deputized" by the Dean campaign to handle the heckler, said he did what he had to do to subdue the person trying to distract Dean from his message.

"I got down low and took his legs out," Franken stated, explaining he needed to fix his broken glasses with electrical tape after the fall.

Franken picked up the unidentified LaRouche supporter and body slammed him to the ground.

"I was a wrestler so I used a wrestling move," Franken exclaimed.

The police were called to the scene, but Franken was not immediately arrested for battery. The victim has not said whether he will pursue criminal charges against Franken.

Although he says he is not supporting Dean for president, Franken explained his physical action against the heckler was necessary to protect free speech.

"I'm neutral in this race but I'm for freedom of speech, which means people should be able to assemble and speak without being shouted down," Franken argued, neglecting the fact that he squelched the free speech rights of the heckler with his actions.

Afterwards, Franken said he would probably do it again if someone tried to vocally protest while a Democrat presidential candidate was speaking.

"I would have done it if he was a Dean supporter at a Kerry rally," he explained.

The incident started while Dean was speaking when several LaRouche supporters in the audience yelled that Dean was a "liar" and not a real Democrat like LaRouche and Democrat presidential front-runner Sen. John Kerry (D-MA).

The eventual victim of the attack by Franken was especially disruptive and drew the ire of the liberal icon. Franken reacted the way he did while the crowd began chanting "Howard Dean" over and over until each of the dissidents were escorted out.

Interestingly, one of the witnesses of the brutality shown by Franken was NBC's "Meet the Press" host Tim Russert.

"One of the Lyndon LaRouche guys got up and started screaming and yelling," Russert stated on the Don Imus radio show on Tuesday. "The press guy for Dean tried to grab onto him and remove him, and he couldn't do it."

Russert said he was thoroughly surprised by what he saw next.

"All of a sudden, Al Franken jumped out of the media gallery, ran down and grabbed this guy on the leg and started wrestling him to the ground," Russert recalled. "It was unbelievable. He was really into it."

LaRouche protesters also appeared without incident at campaign events on Monday held by Kerry and Sen. Joseph Lieberman (D-CT).

Copyright © 2004 Talon News -- All rights reserved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It seems, with the exception of CNN and the Union Leader, the story is only being carried by conservative sources. Of those, with the noted exception of National Review Online, the version they find most satisfying in retelling is the Post's.

[Alexx]

I hope Saturday night live gets an "exclusive" reenactment deal with Al. By the time Al gets done with the rewrite Spiderman would have nothing over Al.

[hardcorpsI]

"I was a wrestler so I used a wrestling move," Franken exclaimed.

Finally, something I have in common with Franken.

Maybe he and Dennis Miller should have a cage match. Former SNL comedians who think they know politics and public policy in no holds barred fighting.

[hardcorpsI]

"I was a wrestler so I used a wrestling move," Franken exclaimed.

Finally, something I have in common with Franken.

Maybe he and Dennis Miller should have a cage match. Former SNL comedians who think they know politics and public policy in no holds barred fighting.

[Fritz the Cat]

Hard.

Me too. Wrestled competitively 21 years.

[schmed]

So you're a wanna be batterer? What franken did was Battery.....I don't give a crap how you spin it......


Dear Inhale,

You had exactly one source--The NY Post. This gives you enough information to draw such harsh conclusions?

Before you prejudge any further, the following eyewitness accounts contradict all of your conclusions. They also paint a clearer and more complete picture of what happened.

BRIEF EXCERPT:

Two members of Dean’s security team immediately moved in on the man, who shoved and elbowed them, Ramsey said.

“He was screaming. He was out of control,” Ramsey said.

Ramsey said he went over to help calm the situation and also got elbowed and pushed.

“All of a sudden, I looked to my right, and Al Franken was grabbing onto this man’s back,” Ramsey said.

“He (Franken) gave him a hefty Patriots block. He should be a Patriot,” Ramsey said.

“I never met Al Franken before. He is now my new hero,” Ramsey said of the former “Saturday Night Live” writer.

http://theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=32449

You also posted the following:

Falsely yelling fire causes unneeded panic,which could cause people to rush the doors and trample others.............show me the panic created by some hecklers........annoyance is not panic
_________________
The play,Sir,is over. -Marquis de Lafayette 1781

EXCERPT OF PANIC:

The protester had clambered over two or three people and had perched himself on the balcony railing.

“I thought he was going to jump. He was screaming at Dean. I was scared for a minute that he was going to jump on the stage and attack Dean,” Ramsey said.



Inhale, read the full link. There is even more.

By my count, you posted to this subject 12 times since yesterday. Now that there are some facts before you, do you care to comment further?

[Inhale2theChief]

Sure if he tackled the guy it's battery ....We'll just wait and see if more comes out on this.......

[Inhale2theChief]

Two members of Dean’s security team immediately moved in on the man, who shoved and elbowed them, Ramsey said.

“He was screaming. He was out of control,” Ramsey said.

Ramsey said he went over to help calm the situation and also got elbowed and pushed.

“All of a sudden, I looked to my right, and Al Franken was grabbing onto this man’s back,” Ramsey said.


Dean's security team seemed to be addressing the situation......

[PassingThru]

i think there's a big diff between heckling private citizens VS. selected public officials, etc.

I agree Ellena, this is one distinction people need to make and there are many nuances to consider in the issue.

As to words not hurting, why have slander and libel laws evolved? Lies are merely words. But we do recognize words that are untruths not only can hurt but are usually designed with that purpose in mind.

Aside from whether what Franken did was appropriate, there is an ongoing discussion of free speech, protest, and what constitutes the legal exercise of the same in this thread. The idea that we have right to the same, all places, all the time, we all know to be wrong. And some here have made comments touching upon that.

Somebody who is not a special invited guest better not show up in my bedroom protesting of an early Saturday morning. That would be unlawful intrusion, breaking and entering, trespass, and possibly a whole slew of other violations of the law contingent on local ordinances. Depending on the time of the morning, even an invited guest may find his ass hauled off to the local precinct for disturbance of the peace. So following candidates (or even elected/appointed officials) into their bedrooms, the privacy of their homes, uninvited*, to conduct a protest, is a no-no.

(*Sorry folks, if its your spouse, s.o., child or other legal resident, you may be s.o.l. unless you can prove they've devised a calculated strategy to do so in order to abuse you.)

How about prowling around the grounds on which that house sits? Well, trespass, prowling, stalking, public nuisance and disturbance laws may apply. Keep off my grass dude and watch out for the Queen Mum roses.

How about the public access sidewalk and/or roadways in the vicinity of my home? Well, now you're talking, (yelling, screaming, heckling and bannering) within your rights - as long as it's at a decent hour AND you don't prevent lawful access/ingress to my property. I can grit my teeth all I want but probably do little about it - unless, again, stalking, harassment or public nuisance laws may apply. But these are extremely specific statutes in most cases.

There are so many facets to consider: whether the heckling is of a private or public figure (or a public figure at a private event), whether the location is a private or public venue, whether the heckling imposes upon the rights of the person heckled in a measurable way.

I think it safe to say that the President giving a public access speech is the fair target of free speech opposition. The routes to the speech venue, the public space around the venue, are legitimate areas for conducting the same. If, during his speech a citizen in the audience takes exception to something said or wishes to express dissatisfaction with his/her public servant (which is his role in our democracy), they are within their rights. And actually, it should be up to the audience of that speech, not the Secret Service or all the President's men, to determine if the person is infringing. If the citizenry gathered to hear the President find that the audience member is addressing issues they want the President to speak on, they should in solidarity support pressure to receive answers. The President is accountable to every citizen. In our age of staged presentations, we seem to forget that.

In regards to the LaRouche supporters at the Dean event: were they entitled to freely heckle Dean? No.

Gasp! Why not? Because it was a private, not a public space. And they did not pose a question regarding his policies or his stated platform. They attempted instead to utilize the space paid for by this candidate's supporters, and the media that was there to hear this candidate, to launch a promotion for another candidate. This is not a free speech issue. This is a fair use issue.

Had they the acumen needed to succeed in debasing Dean while promoting LaRouche, they would have organized plants within the audience with targeted questions designed to trip Dean up, perhaps quoting LaRouche from time to time. Then they would have been both within the law on complying with use of the facility and gotten their message across.

[Neurobürger]

King, Dennis. Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism. New York: Doubleday, 1989. 415 pages.
LaRouche started as a sectarian leftist and self-styled intellectual in the late 1960s. By 1973 cadres from his National Caucus of Labor Committees launched "Operation Mop Up" and began beating up rival leftist groups. Within several years the NCLC stepped over that thin line between sectarian leftism and the right wing, and was cooperating with the KKK, Liberty Lobby, and law enforcement officials. In the early Reagan years, LaRouche's anti-Sovietism found expression through his lobbying on behalf of Star Wars and his access to U.S. intelligence and other officials. His publications such as Executive Intelligence Review are taken seriously by journalists and investigators because of their demonstrated access to occasional inside information. At the same time, LaRouche's people are understandably regarded with a certain amount of healthy suspicion.

LaRouchian political theory is a mixture of Kant, anti-Semitism, and paranoic tirades against everything from British empiricism to Oliver North. It is something of a mystery how LaRouche funds his organization, which is also active in Germany. He was convicted in 1988 of conspiracy, mail fraud, and tax evasion (charges that grew out of his organization's sleazy fund-raising practices), and is serving a 15-year sentence. One suspects, however, that this clue provides a partial answer at best.
ISBN 0-385-23880-0


Operation Mop Up

Copyright © 1992 by Dennis King

[FROM LYNDON LAROUCHE AND THE NEW AMERICAN FASCISM, CHAPTER 3]


LaRouche’s writings in the late 1960s displayed an intense curiosity about the history and methods of European fascism.Â* His research, so his followers thought, was aimed at learning how to prevent fascism.Â* But his analysis differed in subtle ways from that of other leftists.Â* One of the first observers to spot something amiss was his old rival Tim Wohlforth.Â* In a 1968 article, Wohlforth noted LaRouche’s “preposterous theoryâ€� that the Nazi murder of six million Jews had been motivated solely by economics.Â* “It seems,â€� wrote Wohlforth, “that when [the Nazis] Worked the Jews to a point where there was no labor power left in them, they simply sent them to the gas chambers to save the cost of upkeep for unproductive slaves.â€�Â* Wohlforth saw LaRouche’s theory as just a one-sided analysis of Nazi motives.Â* He didn’t suspect that LaRouche one day would develop his own brand of fascism.

In 1971, LaRouche published a major article on the prospects for fascist base building in America.Â* Only with a mass base, he observed, could a “storm trooperâ€� organization have “saleable qualitiesâ€� that flight attract support from “leading governmental and financial interests.Â* He predicted that such a movement would emerge soon on the basis of a “populistâ€� ideology and diverse appeals to rival ethnic groups.Â* This movement would begin to furnish the capitalists with gangs to “break strikes and break up socialist and union meetings.â€�Â* Although at first it might include fascist-minded Jews, it would sooner or later turn on the Jewish community.Â* The Jews, LaRouche observed, were “a most visible and thus ‘ripe’â€� candidate for the role of scapegoat.

LaRouche also predicted that a new type of left-wing group, defined as “left-proto-fascist,â€� would take part in the street violence on the side of overtly right-wing ethnic fascists.Â* In subsequent articles he examined how the alleged controllers of fascism, the American capitalist class, might use advanced brainwashing techniques to transform leftist college students into precisely this type of left-fascist “zombie.â€�Â* He meanwhile began to teach his own leftist followers to regard themselves as “Prometheans,â€� an elite far above the rest of humanity.

LaRouche’s implication was clear:Â* The NCLC must learn from fascism and adopt some of fascism’s tactics.Â* But his followers still regarded themselves as good Marxists (in spite of their elitist pretensions) and retained a visceral hatred of fascism.Â* If LaRouche wanted to steer them to the right, he would have to turn the NCLC into a controlled environment for ideological reeducation--a political cult.

The NCLC’s transformation occurred in three overlapping stages during 1973-74.Â* First, LaRouche ordered his followers into the streets for a campaign of savage attacks on rival leftist groups called Operation Mop Up.Â* This forced them to either deepen their commitment or get out.Â* It also isolated them irrevocably from the rest of the left.

Second, LaRouche staged “ego-stripping� sessions at NCLC meetings, instilling in his followers a sense of shame over any ideological wavering or lack of courage they might have displayed during Mop Up.

Finally, he whipped up an atmosphere of hysteria inside the NCLC based on allegations of an assassination plot against himself.Â* The acceptance of these bizarre allegations severed most of the remaining links between NCLC members and everyday reality.

Operation Mop Up was preceded by months of squabbling between the NCLC and the Communist Party USA.Â* NCLC members had frequently disrupted CP meetings with long harangues from the floor.Â* The CP began tossing them out and published articles alleging that they were government agents.Â* Matters escalated in early 1973 when the NCLC announced a conference in Philadelphia to build a national organization for welfare recipients and the unemployed.Â* CP members and other local activists started a campaign to discredit the conference, calling its NCLC organizers racists as well as agents.Â* The NCLC leadership was furious.Â* A New Solidarity front-page editorial, entitled “Deadly Crisis for CPUSA,â€� warned the CP that if it didn’t back off it would face an all-out counterattack.Â* The CP failed to take the threat seriously.

On the conference’s opening day the anti-NCLC coalition sent a sound truck through the black community and staged a picket line with signs comparing the NCLC to the Ku Klux Klan.Â* This failed to stop the event, which was attended by several hundred white middle-class activists and a handful of welfare mothers.Â* The harassment did, however, give LaRouche the pretext he needed.Â* He called an emergency meeting of the East Coast NCLC.Â* “From here on in,â€� he declared, “the CP cannot hold a meeting on the East Coast….Â* We’ll mop them up in two months.â€�Â* The NCLC, he promised, would seize “hegemonyâ€� on the left--i.e., replace the CP as the dominant organization.

Many NCLC members were shocked and frightened by LaRouche’s announcement, but he anticipated their reluctance:Â* “I know you better than you know yourselves, and for the most part you’re full of crap, “he said.Â* “This isn’t a debating society anymore.â€�

A front-page New Solidarity editorial, “Operation Mop Up:Â* The Class Struggle Is for Keeps,â€� echoed LaRouche’s call.Â* “We must dispose of this stinking corpse [the CP],â€� the editorial said, “to ensure that it cannot act as a host for maggots and other parasites preparing future scabby Nixonite attacks on the working class….Â* If we were to vacillate … we would be guilty of betraying the human race.Â* Our job is to pulverize the Communist Party.â€�

Meanwhile, the NCLC leadership prepared an extraordinary psycho-theological document, “The CP Within Us,â€� to bolster morale.Â* The key to winning Mop Up, it argued, was to expunge the inner voice of cowardice and hesitation (i.e., the CP) within each NCLC member.

Months prior to Mop Up, LaRouche had ordered the most physically agile NCLC members to undergo training for street fighting.Â* This training was now stepped up.Â* Members were organized into flying squads armed with metal pipes, clubs, and numchukas (Korean martial arts devices consisting of two sticks attached by a chain).Â* The idea was to go into action as mini-phalanxes with the numchuka wielders in the center.

Mop Up began in New York, [and] then spread to Philadelphia, Buffalo, Detroit, and other cities.Â* Attackers were sometimes brought from out of town so their faces wouldn’t be recognized.Â* In several cities they broke up public meetings and invaded leftist bookstores, beating anyone who tried to bar their way.Â* In New York they ambushed individual CP leaders on the street.Â* In Detroit they administered a savage beating to a partially paralyzed left-wing activist on crutches.Â* In Philadelphia, twenty-five to thirty NCLC members raided a meeting of the Public Workers Action Caucus.Â* “The steps were a mass of blood,â€� said a PWAC activist.Â* “As soon as I walked out I was hit by a pole.â€�Â* Although no one was critically injured in any of the attacks, several were hospitalized with broken bones and many required medical treatment for cuts and bruises.

The NCLC rhetoric kept pace with the attacks.Â* “The red Communist Party has turned into a den of yellow cowards,â€� announced a LaRouche spokesman in Philadelphia.Â* “CP Recruiting Pallbearers for Its Own Funeral,â€� blared a headline in the April 30 New Solidarity.

When members of the Socialist Workers Party and other Trotskyist groups came forward to defend the CF despite past differences, the NCLC responded with an announcement that henceforth the Trotskyists would be fair game.Â* Undeterred, dozens of SWP supporters showed up to guard the CP’s New York mayoral candidate, Rasheed Storey, after the NCLC announced it would break up a speech he was scheduled to give at Columbia.Â* Doug Jenness, a member of the defense squad, recalls that about forty LaRouchians “filtered into the hall, some wearing leather jackets.Â* They had staves concealed under blankets.Â* When Storey started speaking, they stood up and moved forward, putting on brass knuckles and displaying numchukas.Â* “Storey and other speakers were whisked out the back.Â* The battle then began in earnest.Â* Although the NCLC was finally driven from the hall, six members of the defense squad required treatment.

An unsigned front-page New Solidarity article, “Their Morals and Oursâ€� (named after an anti-Stalinist treatise by Trotsky), expressed anger at the attitude of LaRouche’s former Trotskyist comrades.Â* The SWP, the article complained, “has been saying, ‘Smash the Communist Party’ for almost forty years, yet when some left organization proceeds to actually smash the CP, the SWP leaders and members roll their glazed eyes heavenward, expecting the entire galaxy to fall upon them.â€�

“Their Morals and Oursâ€� revealed the tactical thinking behind Mop Up.Â* It boasted that fifty NCLC members could “routâ€� three hundred CP members and that the CF would have to mobilize at least six times as many fighters to even become a “serious obstacle.â€�

This bravado strongly resembled the passage in Mein Kampf in which Hitler, describing an altercation between Nazis and leftists in a Munich meeting hall 111 1921, crowed that “our enemies, who must have numbered seven and eight hundred men, [were] beaten out of the hall and chased down the stairs by my men numbering not even fifty.�

“Their Morals and Oursâ€� also said that destroying the CP meant showing that it was “a ‘paper tiger,’ rightfully an object of pitying contempt in the eyes of the working person.â€�Â* This idea was further developed in another New Solidarity article:Â* “All those mighty ‘Communists’ can do is hide behind the nightsticks of the local police, while publishing tear-jerking accounts of their own casualties.â€�

Again, there is a similar formulation in Mein Kampf:Â* “Any meeting which is protected exclusively by the police discredits its organizers in the eyes of the broad masses….Â* [A] heroic movement will sooner win the heart of a people than a cowardly one which is kept alive only by police protection.â€�

Such parallels did not go entirely unnoticed within the NCLC.Â* Christine Berl, one of LaRouche’s top disciples (who quit the following year), recalls that she was assigned to prepare a report for a 1973 NCLC conference on how Hitler built up the Nazi Party.Â* “It scared me,â€� she says.Â* “I began to see it was the very tactics Lyn was using.â€�Â* Berl says that she presented her doubts in the form of a puzzle:Â* How do we distinguish ourselves from the Nazis?Â* The audience was unable to give a clear answer.

New York in 1973 was hardly comparable to Munich in 1921.Â* There were no Freikorps veterans and ruined shopkeepers to flock to LaRouche’s banner.Â* And his street fighters were middle-class intellectuals, not desperate lumpen proletarians.Â* Indeed the majority of them were not fighters at all.Â* Most Mop Up attacks were carried out by just a few dozen persons.Â* Even the most enthusiastic of these became nervous as the CP and SWP fought back, their defense squads often outnumbering the attackers.Â* “I pissed blood for a month,â€� recalls a female NCLC member who was injured while charging a Detroit SWP rally.Â* The Chicago regional NCLC sent a memo to New York stating that it wasn’t strong enough to “deal directlyâ€� with the CF.Â* Would the leadership send “defense reinforcements?â€�Â* Until such reinforcements arrived, the Chicago organization would keep most of its activities “low-key or underground,â€� the memo said.Â* By May, the NCLC leadership was finding it difficult to whip up enthusiasm for fresh attacks even in New York.

It is widely believed among leftists that the police in some cities encouraged Mop Up.Â* This suspicion is understandable in light of well-documented police harassment of left-wing groups in the late 196os and early 197os.Â* But former LaRouchians who participated in Mop Up say they don’t recall any police encouragement.Â* At the time, the NCLC regarded the police as the enemy, acting in cahoots with the CP and the SWP to repress the true forces of Revolution.Â* This view was vehemently expressed in the pages of New Solidarity as the police cracked down on Mop Up in city after city.Â* Several NCLC members were arrested in Philadelphia, including a top LaRouche aide.Â* More were arrested in Boston.Â* In Buffalo felony indictments brought the local Mop Up to a grinding halt.Â* In New York City two NCLC members were charged with second-degree assault and possession of a deadly instrument after they attacked black CP leader Ron Tyson.Â* One of Tyson’s attackers was rearrested a week later for assaulting an SWP member.

The only evidence of a law enforcement role in Mop Up points not to local police but to the FBI.Â* The findings of a federal judge in an SWP lawsuit against the FBI suggest that once Mop Up was under way, the bureau’s New York office attempted to aggravate it as part of a campaign of anonymous mailings and other malicious pranks to keep leftist sects at each other’s throats.Â* Federal Judge Charles D. Breitel of the Southern District of New York reviewed classified FBI files in 1979 as a court-appointed Special Master acting for plaintiff SWP.Â* His report noted that a letter had been sent to the NCLC during Mop Up listing the names, home telephone numbers, and addresses of SWP members.Â* “Unless the Government is prepared to allow disclosure of all informationâ€� in the deleted part of the file, Breitel ruled, “it should be conclusively presumed that the letter was sent by the FBI.â€�

LaRouche knew just how far he could push Mop Up.Â* Before the stalemate with the CP could turn into a rout for his followers, he declared victory and called everything off.Â* In fact, Mop Up did no real political harm to the CP.Â* A few meetings were canceled in the first weeks, but thereafter the CP continued its normal activities behind a screen of defense squads.Â* However, Mop Up was a great success for LaRouche.Â* It induced his followers to believe that those they had attacked, and who had fought back, were permanently the enemy.Â* No longer were non-NCLC leftists seen as rivals within a common Marxist tradition.Â* They had become unredeemable devils, traitors to the working class, subhuman police agents; fascists.Â* Mop Up thus marked a bizarre new stage in the NCLC’s political evolution--the stage of anti-fascist fascism.

[schmed]

And if you believe that tackling someone is appropriate and isn't battery YOU ARE AN IDIOT.........


In light of the above referenced eyewitness accounts, tackling someone who was creating a panic and alarming a crowd seems entirely appropriate and isn't battery.

EXCERPT:

“The way he moved, I thought he was going to jump or something,” Wendy Branch of Northwood said. “Even if he didn’t intend to jump, he was setting himself up for a fall. It was a little alarming.”


I will agree with your last post, however, when you suggest we should wait for more information before making conclusions.

Too bad you didn't feel the same way yesterday.

[mickster]

In the scheme of things, this was a lot ado about not very much

[Kim]

Maybe he and Dennis Miller should have a cage match. Former SNL comedians who think they know politics and public policy in no holds barred fighting.


:lol: :lol:

I'd pay money to see that!

[two_iron]

so would I, tuna-breath.....<snicker>....who could Al Franken take besides Christopher Reeves? That runt couldn't whip Micheal Jackson much less a full grown man....heh

[ellena]

Al vs. Ann Coulter. Axes or nailguns?

[Kim]

I think Miller could beat Franken. Franken would kick old Rush's butt though!

And 2Fe, using Chris Reeves was in really bad taste.

[Kim]

Al vs. Ann Coulter. Axes or nailguns?

We'd have to give Al an equalizer to combat Ann's vitriol..........how about a chain saw?

He could use her adam's apple as a target.






My bad! :oops:

[Fritz the Cat]

Funny stuff Kim

[two_iron]

ellena....is that a pic of you or courtney love? If it's you, do you mind if one were to splooge to your pic? I'm asking for a friend of mine....

[ellena]

it's supersquirrel, silly! look again.

[Fritz the Cat]

Ellena-

Don't you mean

DAHN DAH DAH, THOOPER THQUIREL?

[mickster]

two iron, if you, er, your friend does that, make sure you cover the keys in plastic first. The people at Best Buy repair will look at you funny.

[Kim]

Back at you Fritzy! I keep telling tayken I'm a red-head!





No........this isn't my cat or my man!

Can you all tell I am studying really hard! I'm supposed to be writing a paper on business ethics. :oops:

[PassingThru]

Well it seems both left and right here have largely concluded Al Franken's supposed actions was a good thing. If nothing else, they generated speculation for future entertainment programs. :lol:

[two_iron]

thanx mickster....but I don't think my friend is interested anymore.... I'm assuming he's not into rodentia...well between that and the hairy legs straddling the commode...

[Alexx]

Well it seems both left and right here have largely concluded Al Franken's supposed actions was a good thing. If nothing else, they generated speculation for future entertainment programs. :lol:

While I would favor your conclusion, I don't think the evidence backs you up.

[wbarley]

Hey,

I find nothing about this on Google, how about the name of the paper it was published, and who this fellow Vincent Morris is. The whole thing sounds a bit fishy to me.

Thanks!

[schmed]

Hey,

I find nothing about this on Google, how about the name of the paper it was published, and who this fellow Vincent Morris is. The whole thing sounds a bit fishy to me.

Thanks!

Hey wbarley!

Here is a summary:

On Jan. 27 the NY Post released a brief story about the Franken event written by Morris.
http://nypost.com/news/nationalnews/16692.htm

The Drudge Report put the story on its web site the same day. The emphasis was on Franken assaulting a demonstrator. The story spread and was released over multiple news outlets with little or no additional reporting.

On Jan. 28 the New Hampshire Union-Leader, a local paper near where the event actually took place, published an extensive article containing numerous eyewitness accounts of the disturbance. The witnesses told a story markedly different than that of the NY Post, gave a more complete account of the events, and spoke very favorably of Franken.
http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=32449

The national media largely ignored the Union-Leader story and the first-hand accounts it contained. Instead, they parroted the Post account, convicted Franken of assault in their editorials, and pondered about the end of his career and the beginning of his lawsuits.

On Jan. 29 the Washington Times ran an article suggesting Franken should be charged with assault. The Times had access to the Union-Leader article--they referenced it by name in their story. Yet, they chose to not report on any of the positive eyewitness accounts of Franken. The only first-hand account they quoted was comparing Franken's move to a "hefty Patriots block". That's it. They failed to report that the same witness was elbowed and pushed by the instigators before Franken intervened. The same witness said, "I never met Al Franken before. He is now my new hero."
http://washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20040128-114415-1604r


Fair and Balanced? Read the above three articles. Then you decide.

[Fair &Balanced Who Ca]

ellena....is that a pic of you or courtney love? If it's you, do you mind if one were to splooge to your pic? I'm asking for a friend of mine....

two_iron, why don't you stop pretending that it's pictures of adult WOMEN that you do that to? Why don't you tell us what REALLY gets you going, such as dead people, animals, and other things too sick for me to post here. You truly are a degenerate scumbag, and don't do your party a lot of favors by posting this shit.

Could you have posted anything more foul, and perverse?

Oh wait, maybe you could:


so would I, tuna-breath.....<snicker>....who could Al Franken take besides Christopher Reeves? That runt couldn't whip Micheal Jackson much less a full grown man....heh

Do you know who I think he could beat up? You. You're obviously some thirteen year old kid, who's skipping school or something.

You make me sick, you lousy, lame fuckstick.

[Syd]

January 27, 2004 -- EXETER, N.H. - Wise-cracking funnyman Al Franken yesterday body-slammed a demonstrator to the ground after the man tried to shout down Gov. Howard Dean.

So much for "freedom of speech."

[schmed]

January 27, 2004 -- EXETER, N.H. - Wise-cracking funnyman Al Franken yesterday body-slammed a demonstrator to the ground after the man tried to shout down Gov. Howard Dean.

So much for "freedom of speech."


Oh Syd, Syd, Syd...Where did we go wrong? :roll:

You ignore eyewitness accounts. They were linked above but you obviously chose not to read them. Instead, you favor the drivel spewed from the tabloid New York Post, spread by the rightist Matt Drudge, and leaped upon by the echo chamber of the neo-con pundits. Do not repeat, like a mantra, whatever Rush or Bill or Sean or Matt tell you to say. Think for yourself, Syd.

I believe there is hope, Syd. I do not believe that you are dittoed beyond repair.

Click here, Syd. Click here and be saved from the depths of ignorance. Click here and be cleansed by the font of truth and facts. Oh please, Syd.

EXCERPT FROM INTERVIEW WITH EYEWITNESS PETER RAMSEY:

The emails that I've been getting, and the way that some people are talking about this story, is that this was a peaceful demonstration, and that Al Franken suppressed a heckler's freedom of speech.

No, no. This guy should have been arrested. He pushed me and no one from the Dean campaign handled him improperly until he started flicking his arms around and pushing. You have to remember that the Dean people did not go to him until it was clear he was not going to be quiet. To make this absolutely clear, and I saw it happen, and I'm president of the Palace Theater, which means I'm the manager: Al Franken did nothing wrong, in fact he helped.

http://alfrankenweb.com/pramsey.html


Rejoice in the truth. Rejoice.

[wbarley]

Thank you Schmed for the links! The story definitely sounded bogus to me, especially the supposed quotes from Franken himself. Perhaps next time ellena can include the link, so when we see it's from the NY Post or for that matter, Matt Drudge, we can be forewarned!

[Syd]

As he got to the back, the guy started flicking his arms and hit Franken. I saw that happen. He hit two or three others, he was pushing people and he pushed probably six people and with his elbows he probably hit two or three, and Franken pushed him out the door with probably four or five other men. The guy was fighting the whole way.

Sorry, I stand corrected. The guy did sound like a wacko and I can't blame Franken for taking the guy down...

[Kim]

Sorry, I stand corrected. The guy did sound like a wacko and I can't blame Franken for taking the guy down...

Good for you, Syd. I commend you on your willingness to look at more than one story and you willingness to admit you were mistaken. It is amazing how so much of the "news" is created rather than just being reported.

[Syd]

Good for you, Syd. I commend you on your willingness to look at more than one story and you willingness to admit you were mistaken. It is amazing how so much of the "news" is created rather than just being reported.


Thanks, Kim. It's different if the guy just said a comment out loud, but it sounds like that guy was really causing a lot of trouble...

[mickster]

The cons are the kings of WMD: Words of Mass Distraction

[Fritz the Cat]

The cons are the kings of WMD: Words of Mass Distraction

Did you make that up all by yourself? How long have you been waiting to pop it out in the forum?

Really would have been funny had it been in a thread more germane to its subject.

[mickster]

Beg to differ, Fritz. Your thread was a perfect example.

[Fritz the Cat]

Mickster-

Sure it was. Somehow a pertinent thread about Franken is distraction? Interesting. Anyways, it was a funny line.

[schmed]

As he got to the back, the guy started flicking his arms and hit Franken. I saw that happen. He hit two or three others, he was pushing people and he pushed probably six people and with his elbows he probably hit two or three, and Franken pushed him out the door with probably four or five other men. The guy was fighting the whole way.

Sorry, I stand corrected. The guy did sound like a wacko and I can't blame Franken for taking the guy down...

Syd,

I, too, am sorry. Sorry for implying that you would only listen to the drum beat from the neo-con media machine. Your open-minded statements proved me wrong. You set an example for us all.

[Syd]

Syd,

I, too, am sorry. Sorry for implying that you would only listen to the drum beat from the neo-con media machine. Your open-minded statements proved me wrong. You set an example for us all.


Thanks....that's very nice of you to say that...

[Bluecoller-eddie]

.
bump ta de bump. :lol:
comment later. :wink:

-------------- bluecoller -- the grumpy old
kraut ----