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Bubba

12-04-2005, 10:34 PM

Research the accompanying footnotes first if you wish to challenge any facts contained in the following essay. NO NAME CALLING AND BASELESS ACCUSATIONS. Just the facts Jack!

__________________________________________________ ___

Auschwitz - Myths & Facts

By Mark Weber
IHR.org
1-29-5

Nearly everyone has heard of Auschwitz, the German wartime concentration camp where many prisoners -- most of them Jewish -- were reportedly exterminated, especially in gas chambers. Auschwitz is widely regarded as the most terrible Nazi extermination center. The camp's horrific reputation cannot, however, be reconciled with the facts.

Scholars Challenge Holocaust Story

Astonishing as it may seem, more and more historians and engineers have been challenging the widely accepted Auschwitz story. These "revisionist" scholars do not dispute the fact that large numbers of Jews were deported to the camp, or that many died there, particularly of typhus and other diseases. But the compelling evidence they present shows that Auschwitz was not an extermination center and that the story of mass killings in "gas chambers" is a myth.

The Auschwitz Camps

The Auschwitz camp complex was set up in 1940 in what is now south-central Poland. Large numbers of Jews were deported there between 1942 and mid-1944.

The main camp was known as Auschwitz I. Birkenau, or Auschwitz II, was supposedly the main extermination center, and Monowitz, or Auschwitz III, was a large industrial center where gasoline was produced from coal. In addition there were dozens of smaller satellite camps devoted to the war economy.

Four Million Victims?

At the postwar Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans exterminated four million people at Auschwitz. This figure, which was invented by the Soviets, was uncritically accepted for many years. It often appeared in major American newspapers and magazines, for example. [1]

Today no reputable historian, not even those who generally accept the extermination story, believes this figure. Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer said in 1989 that it is time to finally acknowledge the familiar four million figure is a deliberate myth. In July 1990 the Auschwitz State Museum in Poland, along with Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust Center, suddenly announced that altogether perhaps one million people (both Jews and non-Jews) died there. Neither institution would say how many of these people were killed, nor were any estimates given of the numbers of those supposedly gassed. [2] One prominent Holocaust historian, Gerald Reitlinger, has estimated that perhaps 700,000 or so Jews perished at Auschwitz. More recently, Holocaust historian Jean-Claude Pressac has estimated that about 800,000 persons -- of whom 630,000 were Jewish -- perished at Auschwitz. While even such lower figures are incorrect, they show how the Auschwitz story has changed drastically over the years. [3]

Bizarre Tales

At one time it was seriously claimed that Jews were systematically electrocuted at Auschwitz. American newspapers, citing a Soviet eyewitness report from liberated Auschwitz, told readers in February 1945 that the methodical Germans had killed Jews there using an "electric conveyor belt on which hundreds of persons could be electrocuted simultaneously [and] then moved on into furnaces. They were burned almost instantly, producing fertilizer for nearby cabbage fields." [4]

And at the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson charged that the Germans used a "newly invented" device to instantaneously "vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no trace left of them." [5] No reputable historian now accepts either of these fanciful tales.

The Höss 'Confession'

A key Holocaust document is the "confession" of former Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höss of April 5, 1946, which was submitted by the U.S. prosecution at the main Nuremberg trial. [6]

Although it is still widely cited as solid proof for the Auschwitz extermination story, it is actually a false statement that was obtained by torture.

Many years after the war, British military intelligence sergeant Bernard Clarke described how he and five other British soldiers tortured the former commandant to obtain his "confession." Höss himself privately explained his ordeal in these words: "Certainly, I signed a statement that I killed two and half million Jews. I could just as well have said that it was five million Jews. There are certain methods by which any confession can be obtained, whether it is true or not." [7]

Even historians who generally accept the Holocaust extermination story now acknowledge that many of the specific statements made in the Höss "affidavit" are simply not true. For one thing, no serious scholar now claims that anything like two and a half or three million people perished in Auschwitz.

The Höss "affidavit" further alleges that Jews were already being exterminated by gas in the summer of 1941 at three other camps: Belzec, Treblinka and Wolzek. The "Wolzek" camp mentioned by Höss is a total invention. No such camp existed, and the name is no longer mentioned in Holocaust literature. Moreover, the story these days by those who believe in the Holocaust legend is that gassings of Jews did not begin at Auschwitz, Treblinka, or Belzec until sometime in 1942.

No Documentary Evidence

Many thousands of secret German documents dealing with Auschwitz were confiscated after the war by the Allies. Not a single one refers to a policy or program of extermination. In fact, the extermination story cannot be reconciled with the documentary evidence.

Many Jewish Inmates Unable to Work

For example, it is often claimed that all Jews at Auschwitz who were unable to work were immediately killed. Jews who were too old, young, sick, or weak were supposedly gassed on arrival, and only those who could be worked to death were temporarily kept alive.

But the evidence shows that, in fact, a very high percentage of the Jewish inmates were not able to work, and were nevertheless not killed. For example, an internal German telex message dated Sept. 4, 1943, from the chief of the Labor Allocation department of the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office (WVHA), reported that of 25,000 Jewish inmates in Auschwitz, only 3,581 were able to work, and that all of the remaining Jewish inmates -- some 21,500, or about 86 percent -- were unable to work. [8]

This is also confirmed in a secret report dated April 5, 1944, on "security measures in Auschwitz" by Oswald Pohl, head of the SS concentration camp system, to SS chief Heinrich Himmler. Pohl reported that there was a total of 67,000 inmates in the entire Auschwitz camp complex, of whom 18,000 were hospitalized or disabled. In the Auschwitz II camp (Birkenau), supposedly the main extermination center, there were 36,000 inmates, mostly female, of whom "approximately 15,000 are unable to work." [9]

These two documents simply cannot be reconciled with the Auschwitz extermination story.

The evidence shows that Auschwitz-Birkenau was established primarily as a camp for Jews who were not able to work, including the sick and elderly, as well as for those who were temporarily awaiting assignment to other camps. That's the considered view of Dr. Arthur Butz of Northwestern University, who also says that this was the reason for the unusually high death rate there. [10]

Princeton University history professor Arno Mayer, who is Jewish, acknowledges in a recent book about the "final solution" that more Jews perished at Auschwitz as a result of typhus and other "natural" causes than were executed. [11]

Anne Frank

Perhaps the best known Auschwitz inmate was Anne Frank, who is known around the world for her famous diary. But few people know that thousands of Jews, including Anne and her father, Otto Frank, "survived" Auschwitz.

The 15-year-old girl and her father were deported from the Netherlands to Auschwitz in September 1944. Several weeks later, in the face of the advancing Soviet army, Anne was evacuated along with many other Jews to the Bergen-Belsen camp, where she died of typhus in March 1945.

Her father came down with typhus in Auschwitz and was sent to the camp hospital to recover. He was one of thousands of sick and feeble Jews who were left behind when the Germans abandoned the camp in January 1945, shortly before it was overrun by the Soviets. He died in Switzerland in 1980.

If the German policy had been to kill Anne Frank and her father, they would not have survived Auschwitz. Their fate, tragic though it was, cannot be reconciled with the extermination story.

Allied Propaganda

The Auschwitz gassing story is based in large part on the hearsay statements of former Jewish inmates who did not personally see any evidence of extermination. Their beliefs are understandable, because rumors about gassings at Auschwitz were widespread.

Allied planes dropped large numbers of leaflets, written in Polish and German, on Auschwitz and the surrounding areas which claimed that people were being gassed in the camp. The Auschwitz gassing story, which was an important part of the Allied wartime propaganda effort, was also broadcast to Europe by Allied radio stations. [12]

continued...

Bubba

12-04-2005, 10:35 PM

continued......

Survivor Testimony

Former inmates have confirmed that they saw no evidence of extermination at Auschwitz.

An Austrian woman, Maria Vanherwaarden, testified about her camp experiences in a Toronto District Court in March 1988. She was interned in Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1942 for having sexual relations with a Polish forced laborer. On the train trip to the camp, a Gypsy woman told her and the others that they would all be gassed at Auschwitz.

Upon arrival, Maria and the other women were ordered to undress and go into a large concrete room without windows to take a shower. The terrified women were sure that they were about to die. But then, instead of gas, water came out of the shower heads.

Auschwitz was no vacation center, Maria confirmed. She witnessed the death of many fellow inmates by disease, particularly typhus, and quite a few committed suicide. But she saw no evidence at all of mass killings, gassings, or of any extermination program. [13]

A Jewish woman named Marika Frank arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau from Hungary in July 1944, when 25,000 Jews were supposedly gassed and cremated daily. She likewise testified after the war that she heard and saw nothing of "gas chambers" during the time she was interned there. She heard the gassing stories only later. [14]

Inmates Released

Auschwitz internees who had served their sentences were released and returned to their home countries. If Auschwitz had actually been a top secret extermination center, the Germans would certainly not have released inmates who "knew" what was happening in the camp. [15]

Himmler Orders Death Rate Reduced

In response to the deaths of many inmates due to disease, especially typhus, the German authorities responsible for the camps ordered firm counter-measures.

The head of the SS camp administration office sent a directive dated Dec. 28, 1942, to Auschwitz and the other concentration camps. It sharply criticized the high death rate of inmates due to disease, and ordered that "camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to significantly reduce the death rate in the various camps." Furthermore, it ordered:

The camp doctors must supervise more often than in the past the nutrition of the prisoners and, in cooperation with the administration, submit improvement recommendations to the camp commandants ... The camp doctors are to see to it that the working conditions at the various labor places are improved as much as possible.

Finally, the directive stressed that "the Reichsfhrer SS [Heinrich Himmler] has ordered that the death rate absolutely must be reduced." [16]

German Camp Regulations

Official German camp regulations make clear that Auschwitz was not an extermination center. They ordered: [17]

New arrivals in the camp are to be given a thorough medical examination, and if there is any doubt [about their health], they must be sent to quarantine for observation.

Prisoners who report sick must be examined that same day by the camp physician. If necessary, the physician must transfer the prisoners to a hospital for professional treatment.

The camp physician must regularly inspect the kitchen regarding the preparation of the food and the quality of the food supply. Any deficiencies that may arise must be reported to the camp commandant.

Special care should be given in the treatment of accidents, in order not to impair the full productivity of the prisoners.

Prisoners who are to be released or transfered must first be brought before the camp physician for medical examination.

Telltale Aerial Photos

Detailed aerial reconnaissance photographs taken of Auschwitz-Birkenau on several random days in 1944 (during the height of the alleged extermination period there) were made public by the CIA in 1979. These photos show no trace of piles of corpses, smoking crematory chimneys or masses of Jews awaiting death, things that have been repeatedly alleged, and all of which would have been clearly visible if Auschwitz had been the extermination center it is said to have been. [18]

Absurd Cremation Claims

Cremation specialists have confirmed that thousands of corpses could not possibly have been cremated every day throughout the spring and summer of 1944 at Auschwitz, as commonly alleged.

For example, Mr. Ivan Lagace, manager of a large crematory in Calgary, Canada, testified in court in April 1988 that the Auschwitz cremation story is technically impossible. The allegation that 10,000 or even 20,000 corpses were burned every day at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944 in crematories and open pits is simply "preposterous" and "beyond the realm of reality," he declared under oath. [19]

Gassing Expert Refutes Extermination Story

America's leading gas chamber expert, Boston engineer Fred A. Leuchter, carefully examined the supposed "gas chambers" in Poland and concluded that the Auschwitz gassing story is absurd and technically impossible.

Leuchter is the foremost specialist on the design and installation of gas chambers used in the United States to execute convicted criminals. For example, he designed a gas chamber facility for the Missouri state penitentiary.

In February 1988 he carried out a detailed onsite examination of the "gas chambers" at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek in Poland, which are either still standing or only partially in ruins. In sworn testimony to a Toronto court and in a technical report, Leuchter described every aspect of his investigation.

He concluded by emphatically declaring that the alleged gassing facilities could not possibly have been used to kill people. Among other things, he pointed out that the so-called "gas chambers" were not properly sealed or vented to kill human beings without also killing German camp personnel. [20]

Dr. William B. Lindsey, a research chemist employed for 33 years by the Dupont Corporation, likewise testified in a 1985 court case that the Auschwitz gassing story is technically impossible. Based on a careful on-site examination of the "gas chambers" at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek, and on his years of experience, he declared: "I have come to the conclusion that no one was willfully or purposefully killed with Zyklon B [hydrocyanic acid gas] in this manner. I consider it absolutely impossible." [21]

Summary

The Auschwitz extermination story originated as wartime propaganda. Now, more than 60 years after the end of the Second World War, it is time to take another, more objective look at this highly polemicized chapter of history. The Auschwitz legend is the core of the Holocaust story. If hundreds of thousands of Jews were not systematically killed there, as alleged, one of the great myths of our time collapses.

Artificially maintaining the hatreds and passions of the past prevents genuine reconciliation and lasting peace. Revisionism promotes historical awareness and international understanding. That is why the work of the Institute for Historical Review is so important and deserves your support.

continued.......

Bubba

12-04-2005, 10:35 PM

continued.........

Notes

1. Nuremberg document 008-USSR. IMT blue series, Vol. 39, pp. 241, 261.; NC
and A red series, vol. 1, p. 35.; C.L. Sulzberger, "Oswiecim Killings Placed
at 4,000,000," New York Times, May 8, 1945, and, New York Times, Jan. 31, 1986,
p. A4.
2. Y. Bauer, "Fighting the Distortions," Jerusalem Post (Israel), Sept. 22,
1989; "Auschwitz Deaths Reduced to a Million," Daily Telegraph (London), July
17, 1990; "Poland Reduces Auschwitz Death Toll Estimate to 1 Million," The
Washington Times, July 17, 1990.
3. G. Reitlinger, The Final Solution (1971); J.-C. Pressac, Le Crématoires
d'Auschwitz: La Machinerie du meurtre de mass (Paris: CNRS, 1993). On Pressac's
estimates, see: L'Express (France), Sept. 30, 1993, p. 33.
4. Washington (DC) Daily News, Feb. 2, 1945, pp. 2, 35. (United Press
dispatch from Moscow).
5. IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21, 1946).
6. Nuremberg document 3868-PS (USA-819). IMT blue series, Vol. 33, pp.
275-279.
7. Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235; R. Faurisson,
The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403.
8. Archives of the Jewish Historical Institute of Warsaw, German document
No. 128, in: H. Eschwege, ed., Kennzeichen J (East Berlin: 1966), p. 264.
9. Nuremberg document NO-021. NMT green series, Vol. 5. pp. 384-385.
10. Arthur Butz, The Hoax of the Twentieth Century (Costa Mesa, Calif.), p.
124.
11. Arno Mayer, Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The 'Final Solution' in
History (Pantheon, 1989), p. 365.
12. Nuremberg document NI-11696. NMT green series, Vol. 8, p. 606.
13. Testimony in Toronto District Court, March 28, 1988. Toronto Star, March
29, 1988, p. A2.
14. Sylvia Rothchild, ed., Voices from the Holocaust (New York: 1981), pp.
188-191.
15. Walter Laqueur, The Terrible Secret (Boston: 1981), p. 169.
16. Nuremberg document PS-2171, Annex 2. NC&A red series, Vol. 4, pp.
833-834.
17. "Rules and Regulations for the Concentration Camps." Anthology, Inhuman
Medicine, Vol. 1, Part 1 (Warsaw: International Auschwitz Committee, 1970), pp.
149-151.; S. Paskuly, ed., Death Dealer: the Memoirs of the SS Kommandant at
Auschwitz (Buffalo: 1992), pp. 216-217.
18. Dino A. Brugioni and Robert C. Poirier, The Holocaust Revisited
(Washington, DC: Central Intelligence Agency, 1979).
19. Canadian Jewish News (Toronto), April 14, 1988, p. 6.
20. The Leuchter Report: An Engineering Report on the Alleged Execution Gas
Chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek (Toronto: 1988). Available for
$17.00, postpaid, from the IHR.
21. The Globe and Mail (Toronto), Feb. 12, 1985, p. M3
#2001

About the Author

Mark Weber is director of the Institute for Historical Review. He studied
history at the University of Illinois (Chicago), the University of Munich,
Portland State University and Indiana University (M.A., 1977). For nine years he
served as editor of the IHR's Journal of Historical Review.

http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/auschwitz.shtml

Commentary
From Ted Twietmeyer
tedtw@frontiernet.net
1-30-5

This article was well-written and researched. And it also means that the Shindler's List film is fiction as well, which also depicts countless people being gassed daily. As for the crematories, I completely concur with the commentary in the article.

The Facts: It takes about 70 minutes (according to one furnace manufacturer's spec sheet, see
[1] ) to cremate a body even today. This is a burner of 400KW. If each crematory furnace were to cremate 20.6 bodies in every 24 hour period running 7 days a week, then to handle 20,000 bodies a day would require more than 971 furnaces running non-stop, AND sufficient fuel to keep them all operating. And all this, in a Germany that was always short on fuel?

Preposterous of historians to never look at the numbers!

Ted Twietmeyer

[1] - Furnace spec sheet with cycle time:
http://www.ati-furnace.com/en/four_2/shema.htm

Comment
From William Purcell
1-31-5

I haven't read the entirety of Mark Weber's essay yet - but one fact that should ALWAYS be brought out - particularly in regard to this so-called "60th" commemoration of the ... er ... the ... "liberation" of Auschwitz in January of 1945 by the Red Army of the Communist Soviet Union is this fact: that camp in Poland - Auschwitz - merely underwent a CHANGE IN MANAGEMENT at THAT time, ie from "Nazi" to "Commie." It most definitely was NOT 'liberated' no matter how one looks at it.

That camp in Auschwitz was CONTINUED to be run as a concentration camp up until the year 1951 (!!!!) by the Communist USSR under Stalin until two years before Stalin's death when it was then converted (1951) into an official Communist 'State Museum' (read: anti-German Propaganda Factory) in then Communist Poland.

From 1945 up until 1951 when it finally finished its role as a functioning death camp - some 250,000 victims were put to death there. Victims of the Commies this time. It point of actually documented fact - this total of Stalinist victims actually exceeded the previous occupiers ' total by about three times : ie the ACTUAL number of persons who died in Auschwitz between 1940 and 1945 when the Germans were running that place was some 75,000 souls - 63,000 of whom were JEWISH - few if any of whom ever died from any "gassing."

Most died from the wartime typhus epidemic and severe malnutrition-induced illness

None of the 250,000 victims during the Stalinist period (1945 up to 1951) ever died of any "gassing" there, either, for that matter.

Most died from either being worked to death as slave laborers - or died of disease and starvation. A few died from firing squad style executions.

That's it.

Those are the ACTUAL, REAL historical facts about the real Auschwitz.

All of the rest is Propaganda. It had originally been claimed that "over 4.5 million" of the "six million Jews" had been "gassed" there. This figure went through many, many permutations and revisions by the JEWS THEMSELVES until about 1985, when Dr. Francisek Piper - the very one whom the American Jew, David Cole, interviewed in his now famous video - the one in which Piper admits that the "gas chamber" that was always shown to the tourists there - was actually built in 1947! - two years AFTER the war was over.

see: www.codoh.com
see: www.ihr.org
see: www.vho.org

It was Dr. Piper, Auschwitz Chief Archivist and historian for 27 years, who first 'officially' lowered the number to "1.5 million" and then, by 1988 - again lowered to "1.1 million."

So, then what happened to the 'extra' 3 or 4 MILLION Jews? Nothing.

The propagandists have kept up the "6 million" figure - in spite of all of the official reductions that have made over the years.

Van Pelt, a Dutch Jew, who was the big Jewish "expert " on "The Holocaust" by the time of the David Irving 'trial', maintained that "500,000" Jews had been "gassed" there. Yet another fantastic downward reivison of the original 4.5 million figure.

Yet, I understand that they are now back to the infamous "1.1 million" figure for the 'annniversary.'

Comment
By Mark Weber
2-5-5

When considering the story of the lost 'Six Million', most overlook an obvious and crucial source of data: the 1938 World Almanac which listed the populations of countries by religion.

If you add up the numbers for the all European countries - less the Brittish Isles and the Americas - there was total population of roughly 6 Million Jews in the whole of Europe when the war broke out. There were about a half million in Germany.

This simple and irrefutable fact clearly debunks that claim that '6 million' were killed...or there would not have been any Jewish people left to tell a story. It would have meant that Hitler completed his supposed goals for Europe.

Most people should be able to find a copy of the 1938 Almanac in thier library. I hope this sheds some new, clear and logical light on the story.

AllahAllah

12-04-2005, 10:54 PM

Bubba if anyone belongs in a camp it ought to be you with Mykel in charge.

Bubba

12-04-2005, 10:58 PM

Bubba if anyone belongs in a camp it ought to be you with Mykel in charge.

Hey buttwipe, what FACT are you challenging?

AllahAllah

12-04-2005, 11:08 PM

Srry for the comments Bubba- but I wish you'd get real and see the inconsistencies in your story. I don't even want to comment on them-

thomaspainerevisited

12-04-2005, 11:08 PM

Bubba, I'll probably carve up what you posted tommorrow, that is, since I know a little having studied this topic 12 hours a day for at least five days a week for more than several years.

.

TPR

govayers

12-05-2005, 03:08 AM

Big Ken knew where the Jews of Shell went. He found out interviewing their killers at Nuremburg. While he was at it, he found out more than he ever wanted to know. He brought a litlle maroon fez home. It was a Nazi executioner's cap. Nice black tassle and decorated like a Shriner's hat...Skull, Jesus, swastika, and SS emblem. I wore it to a couple of parties. Coolest party hat ever. I suppose the drunk traded it for a case of beer. What do you suppose one of these freaks would pay for that little gem? I'm guessing a quarter of a million. And, not to display. Just to wear to bed.

AllahAllah

12-05-2005, 03:31 AM

Bubba you wrote the following:
This is also confirmed in a secret report dated April 5, 1944, on "security measures in Auschwitz" by Oswald Pohl, head of the SS concentration camp system, to SS chief Heinrich Himmler. Pohl reported that there was a total of 67,000 inmates in the entire Auschwitz camp complex, of whom 18,000 were hospitalized or disabled. In the Auschwitz II camp (Birkenau), supposedly the main extermination center, there were 36,000 inmates, mostly female, of whom "approximately 15,000 are unable to work." [9]

Bubba this neither confirns or denies how many murders and killings occured at Auschwitz.
I've been to Auschwitz and funny that the German Government says millions died there!
For all we know the above memo may refer to the number put on work detail for a particular month(which would mean they were lucky and not kileed like most).

mickey

12-05-2005, 04:48 AM

I guess Lib went away for the weekend.

Tim

12-05-2005, 05:05 AM

When a poster puts up a thread and prefaces the material with "NO NAME CALLING AND BASELESS ACCUSATIONS. Just the facts Jack!" then you know a pail of swill is about to follow. This thread is no exception.

Take a look where the author is coming from.

Institute for Historical Review

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/historical_review.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=3&item=ihr

Once a leading voice in the international movement to deny the Holocaust and vindicate Hitler and the Nazi regime, the Institute for Historical Review has been in decline for several years. It has been unable to convene a major international conference or publish its Holocaust-denying Journal of Historical Review since 2002. Currently its activities have been limited to hosting minor extremist gatherings -- usually featuring a speech by IHR director Mark Weber and occasionally another Holocaust denier such as David Irving -- and operating its Web site and its e-mail list. Weber is also a supporter of embattled Holocaust denier Ernst Zündel. IHR's most significant recent activity was a conference it conducted together with the neo-Nazi National Alliance in Sacramento, California, in April 2004.

Institute for Historical Review (IHR)

http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/ihr.shtml

Question:

What is the Institute for Historical Review?

Andrew Mathis Responds:

The IHR was founded by Willis Carto in 1978. Carto has a long history on the far right-wing, first in the John Birch Society and then later as founder of the Liberty Lobby, a PAC dedicated to ending U.S. aid to Israel. He also served on the Wallace for President campaign in 1968, and he has published the newspaper Spotlight, which featured conspiracy theories and alternative views of history.

It may be easy to say that Carto is merely critical of Israel and he is not an anti-Semite. However, his advocacy for neo-Nazi "martyr" Francis Parker Yockey (author of Imperium, which the IHR sells, a Mein Kampf for the postwar era) makes it quite clear that he is a garden-variety Jew-hater, not to mention an anti-black and anti-Latino racist.

dannavy85

12-05-2005, 05:25 AM

Fuck you Bubba you revisionist Nazi cock sucker.

Fair &Balanced Who Ca

12-05-2005, 05:45 AM

Bubba, I don't want to get into any name-calling here.

Oh who am I kidding.

You're a fucking nazi slug with the stench of rancid diarrhea oozing from your spotty, fetid behind, and saying that is an insult to all fucking nazi slugs with the stench of rancid diarrhea oozing from their spotty, fetid behinds.

If you ever had a redeeming character trait, it was long before you cut your first tooth. Quit posting Holocaust Denial, you lousy fuck. It got sickening a long time ago.

Nobody is going to pretend to enter into a rational discussion with a fucking sick racist asshole like you, today, or any other day, so why keep pretending you think it's going to happen. You simply post this garbage, like a kid who just made a super-duper big mudpie out of his own shit, and then sit back and applaud how great Bubba is.

The only problem is nobody else thinks Bubba is great. Everybody else thinks Bubba sucks.

Bubba sucks.

Got it?

Fuckwad.

isaly

12-05-2005, 06:17 AM

thomaspainerevisited

12-05-2005, 06:30 AM

thomaspainerevisited

12-05-2005, 06:32 AM

TPR: Sounded like a forced admit thingy. HA! You suddenly announce when you say anything new. Technique? Well, so I suddenly read down.

Neither institution would say how many of these people were killed, nor were any estimates given of the numbers of those supposedly gassed. [2] One prominent Holocaust historian, Gerald Reitlinger, has estimated that perhaps 700,000 or so Jews perished at Auschwitz. More recently, Holocaust historian Jean-Claude Pressac has estimated that about 800,000 persons -- of whom 630,000 were Jewish -- perished at Auschwitz. While even such lower figures are incorrect, they show how the Auschwitz story has changed drastically over the years. [3]

TPR: And, the European Gypsies sort of went poof--mostly, that is, in a day or so. Actually, many were proud of this accomplishment.

Bizarre Tales (TPR: Like this whole period in man's history wasn't bizarre.)

At one time it was seriously claimed that Jews were systematically electrocuted at Auschwitz. American newspapers, citing a Soviet eyewitness report from liberated Auschwitz, told readers in February 1945 that the methodical Germans had killed Jews there using an "electric conveyor belt on which hundreds of persons could be electrocuted simultaneously [and] then moved on into furnaces. They were burned almost instantly, producing fertilizer for nearby cabbage fields." [4]

And at the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson charged that the Germans used a "newly invented" device to instantaneously "vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no trace left of them." [5] No reputable historian now accepts either of these fanciful tales.

TPR: Never heard of this? Yes, sounds unexpected. Although, we also had the magic bullet by Supreme Court personnel--taking orders. (Also see Chekov above). OK, if true, but there's lots that substantiates the basic reality of murder in the camps. OH, that guy in Lanzman's Shoah was just making it all up; the Jews paid him. HA!

The Höss 'Confession'

A key Holocaust document is the "confession" of former Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höss of April 5, 1946, which was submitted by the U.S. prosecution at the main Nuremberg trial. [6]

Although it is still widely cited as solid proof for the Auschwitz extermination story, it is actually a false statement that was obtained by torture.

Many years after the war, British military intelligence sergeant Bernard Clarke described how he and five other British soldiers tortured the former commandant to obtain his "confession." Höss himself privately explained his ordeal in these words: "Certainly, I signed a statement that I killed two and half million Jews. I could just as well have said that it was five million Jews. There are certain methods by which any confession can be obtained, whether it is true or not." [7]

Even historians who generally accept the Holocaust extermination story now acknowledge that many of the specific statements made in the Höss "affidavit" are simply not true. For one thing, no serious scholar now claims that anything like two and a half or three million people perished in Auschwitz.

The Höss "affidavit" further alleges that Jews were already being exterminated by gas in the summer of 1941 at three other camps: Belzec, Treblinka and Wolzek. The "Wolzek" camp mentioned by Höss is a total invention. No such camp existed, and the name is no longer mentioned in Holocaust literature. Moreover, the story these days by those who believe in the Holocaust legend is that gassings of Jews did not begin at Auschwitz, Treblinka, or Belzec until sometime in 1942.

No Documentary Evidence

Many thousands of secret German documents dealing with Auschwitz were confiscated after the war by the Allies. Not a single one refers to a policy or program of extermination. In fact, the extermination story cannot be reconciled with the documentary evidence.

TPR: The German's used CODE WORDS to mean EXTERMINATION--it was the policy that was punishable for violation. It was so ordered. You want to get technical do you Bubba.

Many Jewish Inmates Unable to Work

TPR: YES: Starved, used, and often died in that "WORK SECTION" of Auschwitz.

For example, it is often claimed that all Jews at Auschwitz who were unable to work were immediately killed. Jews who were too old, young, sick, or weak were supposedly gassed on arrival, and only those who could be worked to death were temporarily kept alive.

TPR: SO are the claimed authors denying the SELECTION at the train disimbarking platform outside of Auschwitz-- hu? Bubba.

But the evidence shows that, in fact, a very high percentage of the Jewish inmates were not able to work, and were nevertheless not killed. For example, an internal German telex message dated Sept. 4, 1943, from the chief of the Labor Allocation department of the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office (WVHA), reported that of 25,000 Jewish inmates in Auschwitz, only 3,581 were able to work, and that all of the remaining Jewish inmates -- some 21,500, or about 86 percent -- were unable to work. [8]

TPR: They drug the dead out---often. Starved, worked, and then died.

This is also confirmed in a secret report dated April 5, 1944, on "security measures in Auschwitz" by Oswald Pohl, head of the SS concentration camp system, to SS chief Heinrich Himmler. Pohl reported that there was a total of 67,000 inmates in the entire Auschwitz camp complex, of whom 18,000 were hospitalized or disabled. In the Auschwitz II camp (Birkenau), supposedly the main extermination center, there were 36,000 inmates, mostly female, of whom "approximately 15,000 are unable to work." [9]

That's 67, 000 perhaps at ONE TIME- BUBBA. Where'd the rest go-BUBBA. HA!

These two documents simply cannot be reconciled with the Auschwitz extermination story.
Which, of course, was an exaggeration---4million, so it was perhaps a million or more at Auschwitz--the rest of the three not killed by the order police or two minus the total at Auschwits still leaves two million for such places as Mauthausen--etc.

The evidence shows that Auschwitz-Birkenau was established primarily as a camp for Jews who were not able to work, including the sick and elderly, as well as for those who were temporarily awaiting assignment to other camps.

TPR: WHAT EVIDENCE?

That's the considered view of Dr. Arthur Butz of Northwestern University, who also says that this was the reason for the unusually high death rate there. [10]

WHO IS HE?

Princeton University history professor Arno Mayer, who is Jewish, acknowledges in a recent book about the "final solution" that more Jews perished at Auschwitz as a result of typhus and other "natural" causes than were executed. [11]

TPR: Perhaps, but "who is Jewish, acknowledges" sort of sounds like a forced confession.

Anne Frank

Perhaps the best known Auschwitz inmate was Anne Frank, who is known around the world for her famous diary. But few people know that thousands of Jews, including Anne and her father, Otto Frank, "survived" Auschwitz. The 15-year-old girl and her father were deported from the Netherlands to Auschwitz in September 1944. Several weeks later, in the face of the advancing Soviet army, Anne was evacuated along with many other Jews to the Bergen-Belsen camp, where she died of typhus in March 1945. Her father came down with typhus in Auschwitz and was sent to the camp hospital to recover. He was one of thousands of sick and feeble Jews who were left behind when the Germans abandoned the camp in January 1945, shortly before it was overrun by the Soviets. He died in Switzerland in 1980.
If the German policy had been to kill Anne Frank and her father, they would not have survived Auschwitz. Their fate, tragic though it was, cannot be reconciled with the extermination story.

TPR: I never spent much time on Ann Frank.

Allied Propaganda

The Auschwitz gassing story is based in large part on the hearsay statements of former Jewish inmates who did not personally see any evidence of extermination. Their beliefs are understandable, because rumors about gassings at Auschwitz were widespread.

TPR: Hey Bubbles, the designs as well as the problems associated with the gas chambers were written in German reports--and how to fix the problems. For example, they built the doors so they opened inward--oops. The people were piled up against the doors, so it was troublesome to get the bodies out. OH, and like IG Farben and some other companies didn't produce Zyklon-B.

Allied planes dropped large numbers of leaflets, written in Polish and German, on Auschwitz and the surrounding areas which claimed that people were being gassed in the camp. The Auschwitz gassing story, which was an important part of the Allied wartime propaganda effort, was also broadcast to Europe by Allied radio stations. [12]

TPR: SO, it was mass suggestion was it Bubba? Bubba, I've read hundreds of individual accounts of life in the consentration camps--some conflicts, or course, but what is you point? And so, I read down-- perhaps I'll comment more later.

continued...

thomaspainerevisited

12-05-2005, 06:36 AM

Fuck you Bubba you revisionist Nazi cock sucker.

HEY, some of the exaggeration also detracts from the honest story of what took place, which was pretty dang aweful. I say get the bullshit out of the way, which happens to be also much of what --if not most of what--- the revisionists claim (READ THEIR REVISION INTO THE LAST REMARK).

TPR

thomaspainerevisited

12-05-2005, 06:54 AM

[QUOTE=Bubba]continued......

Survivor Testimony

Former inmates have confirmed that they saw no evidence of extermination at Auschwitz.

An Austrian woman, Maria Vanherwaarden, testified about her camp experiences in a Toronto District Court in March 1988. She was interned in Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1942 for having sexual relations with a Polish forced laborer. On the train trip to the camp, a Gypsy woman told her and the others that they would all be gassed at Auschwitz.

Upon arrival, Maria and the other women were ordered to undress and go into a large concrete room without windows to take a shower. The terrified women were sure that they were about to die. But then, instead of gas, water came out of the shower heads.

TPR: COVERED IN SCHINDLER'S LIST!

Auschwitz was no vacation center, Maria confirmed. She witnessed the death of many fellow inmates by disease, particularly typhus, and quite a few committed suicide. But she saw no evidence at all of mass killings, gassings, or of any extermination program. [13]

TPR: Auschwitz was big, and do the words compartimentalization mean anything to you Bubba. The Germans were experts; unfortunetly we took lessons.

A Jewish woman named Marika Frank arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau from Hungary in July 1944, when 25,000 Jews were supposedly gassed and cremated daily. She likewise testified after the war that she heard and saw nothing of "gas chambers" during the time she was interned there. She heard the gassing stories only later. [14]

TPR: I'm going to skip to the summary.

Summary

The Auschwitz extermination story originated as wartime propaganda.

TPR: Governments exaggerate; the Russians even exaggerated German attrocities; but didn't the Germans also kill twenty million or more? NEXT!

Now, more than 60 years after the end of the Second World War, it is time to take another, more objective look at this highly polemicized chapter of history. The Auschwitz legend is the core of the Holocaust story. If hundreds of thousands of Jews were not systematically killed there, as alleged, one of the great myths of our time collapses.

TPR: Auschwitz is but one part of the Holocaust. ONE PART BUBBA!

Artificially maintaining the hatreds and passions of the past prevents genuine reconciliation and lasting peace.

TPR: There have been movements that want to kill a whole people because "one" human was murdered. So, do you think 4 versus 6 million will stop madness? Or, is it finally the recognition that children are not there parents?

Revisionism promotes historical awareness and international understanding. That is why the work of the Institute for Historical Review is so important and deserves your support.

TPR: DO they defend their arguements other than through their stuff?

TPR: Are they seeking honesty? Clarity? OH, Bubbles, I was tired so I didn't comment all the way down. If you want to know something in particular ask.

Thomas Paine Revisited

thomaspainerevisited

12-05-2005, 07:01 AM

Bubba, what are you trying to say?

Let's see. . . approx. 6,000,000 jews killed . . doesn't make sense that 4,000,000 of 'em were killed at Auschwitz. . . anyone with a brain would know that. . .

Are you trying to say that 6,000,000 Jews weren't killed?

Are you SURE you don't have your historical revisionist hat on this morning?
__________________________________________________ ___________________

TPR: Six million Jews Killed. Was it 5.3? Numbers like this are screwy; they also tend to irritate me. Why? The difference means what?

TPR: Nevertheless: best estimate, 3 million Jews were killed by the Order Police away from the CAMPS. See Goldhagen and others.

TPR: Using subtraction, that leaves three million people out of the six not killed by the Order Police, who by the way were mostly Jews who were shot in the back of the head near roadsides.

TPR: NOW, divide those three million between "many" death camps, of which Auschwitz was but one--to understand only that it wasn't an Auschwitz phenomenon alone.

TPR: So, there you go. OH, and by your logic you don't have a brain dude. "Everyone knows that?" Everyone who might "knows that" would be WRONG! Guess you need a course in logic as well as Order Police Battalion 101.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060995068/103-8786630-3999848?v=glance&n=283155

Also see:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060995068/ref=ase_theamericanisraeA/103-8786630-3999848?s=books&v=glance&n=283155&tagActionCode=theamericanisraeA

These two books cover the murder of Jews by the German Order Police--- estimated by some at about three million.

TPR

Lib

12-05-2005, 08:44 AM

dannavy85

12-05-2005, 02:33 PM

You're a fucking nazi slug with the stench of rancid diarrhea oozing from your spotty, fetid behind, and saying that is an insult to all fucking nazi slugs with the stench of rancid diarrhea oozing from their spotty, fetid behinds.

Bravo FaB!!!

dannavy85

12-05-2005, 02:37 PM

Just a thought.....the 6 million jews could have been exterminated by any or all of the following....

Firing squads

gas chambers

slave work

body experaments

It's just that the Gas Chambers are the most widely single used method identified with the Nazi regime. It does not mean that 6 million jews were murdered by this method alone.

However, Bubba is a revisionist nazi scumbag, that is fact. Seems we didn't kill enough of these freaks in 1945.

Mykel

12-05-2005, 04:06 PM

ALL war is genocide.

thomaspainerevisited

12-05-2005, 04:55 PM

ALL war is genocide.

GENOCIDE: The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group. Does that mean in the era post Clausewitz that every group is ready to expunge every national, racial, political, or religious, or ethnic group that are standing in their way? How did you come to that conclusion MYKEL, or do you define Genocide differently.

TPR

whitemajikman

12-06-2005, 12:19 PM

Red Cross Denied Jewish Holocaust
by THUNDERBAY.INDYMEDIA.ORG

(Excerpt from "The Jews And The Concentration Camps: A Factual Appraisal By The Red Cross."

There is one survey of the Jewish question in Europe during World War Two and the conditions of Germany's concentration camps which is almost unique in its honesty and objectivity, the three-volume "Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross on its Activities during the Second World War," Geneva, 1948.

This comprehensive account from an entirely neutral source incorporated and expanded the findings of two previous works: Documents sur l'activité du CICR en faveur des civils détenus dans les camps de concentration en Allemagne 1939-1945 (Geneva, 1946), and Inter Arma Caritas: the Work of the ICRC during the Second World War (Geneva, 1947). The team of authors, headed by Frédéric Siordet, explained in the opening pages of the Report that their object, in the tradition of the Red Cross, had been strict political neutrality, and herein lies its great value.

The ICRC successfully applied the 1929 Geneva military convention in order to gain access to civilian internees held in Central and Western Europe by the Germany authorities.

By contrast, the ICRC was unable to gain any access to the Soviet Union, which had failed to ratify the Convention. The millions of civilian and military internees held in the USSR, whose conditions were known to be by far the worst, were completely cut off from any international contact or supervision.

The Red Cross Report is of value in that it first clarifies the legitimate circumstances under which Jews were detained in concentration camps, i.e. as enemy aliens.

In describing the two categories of civilian internees, the Report distinguishes the second type as "Civilians deported on administrative grounds (in German, "Schutzhäftlinge"), who were arrested for political or racial motives because their presence was considered a danger to the State or the occupation forces" (Vol. 111, p. 73).

These persons, it continues, "were placed on the same footing as persons arrested or imprisoned under common law for security reasons." (P.74).

The Report admits that the Germans were at first reluctant to permit supervision by the Red Cross of people detained on grounds relating to security, but by the latter part of 1942, the ICRC obtained important concessions from Germany.

They were permitted to distribute food parcels to major concentration camps in Germany from August 1942, and "from February 1943 onwards this concession was extended to all other camps and prisons" (Vol. 111, p. 78).

The ICRC soon established contact with camp commandants and launched a food relief programme which continued to function until the last months of 1945, letters of thanks for which came pouring in from Jewish internees.

Red Cross Recipients Were Jews

The Report states that "As many as 9,000 parcels were packed daily. From the autumn of 1943 until May 1945, about 1,112,000 parcels with a total weight of 4,500 tons were sent off to the concentration camps" (Vol. III, p. 80). In addition to food, these contained clothing and pharmaceutical supplies. "Parcels were sent to Dachau, Buchenwald, Sangerhausen, Sachsenhausen, Oranienburg, Flossenburg, Landsberg-am-Lech, Flöha, Ravensbrück, Hamburg-Neuengamme, Mauthausen, Theresienstadt, Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, to camps near Vienna and in Central and Southern Germany. The principal recipients were Belgians, Dutch, French, Greeks, Italians, Norwegians, Poles and stateless Jews" (Vol. III, p. 83).

In the course of the war, "The Committee was in a position to transfer and distribute in the form of relief supplies over twenty million Swiss francs collected by Jewish welfare organisations throughout the world, in particular by the American Joint Distribution Committee of New York" (Vol. I, p. 644).

This latter organisation was permitted by the German Government to maintain offices in Berlin until the American entry into the war. The ICRC complained that obstruction of their vast relief operation for Jewish internees came not from the Germans but from the tight Allied blockade of Europe. Most of their purchases of relief food were made in Rumania, Hungary and Slovakia.

The ICRC had special praise for the liberal conditions which prevailed at Theresienstadt up to the time of their last visits there in April 1945. This camp, "where there were about 40,000 Jews deported from various countries was a relatively privileged ghetto" (Vol. III, p. 75).

According to the Report, "'The Committee's delegates were able to visit the camp at Theresienstadt (Terezin) which was used exclusively for Jews and was governed by special conditions. From information gathered by the Committee, this camp had been started as an experiment by certain leaders of the Reich ... These men wished to give the Jews the means of setting up a communal life in a town under their own administration and possessing almost complete autonomy. . . two delegates were able to visit the camp on April 6th, 1945. They confirmed the favourable impression gained on the first visit" (Vol. I, p . 642).

The ICRC also had praise for the regime of Ion Antonescu of Fascist Rumania where the Committee was able to extend special relief to 183,000 Rumanian Jews until the time of the Soviet occupation.

CONTINUED.......

whitemajikman

12-06-2005, 12:20 PM

The aid then ceased, and the ICRC complained bitterly that it never succeeded "in sending anything whatsoever to Russia" (Vol. II, p. 62). The same situation applied to many of the German camps after their "liberation" by the Russians.

The ICRC received a voluminous flow of mail from Auschwitz until the period of the Soviet occupation, when many of the internees were evacuated westward. But the efforts of the Red Cross to send relief to internees remaining at Auschwitz under Soviet control were futile. However, food parcels continued to be sent to former Auschwitz inmates transferred west to such camps as Buchenwald and Oranienburg.

No Evidence Of Genocide

One of the most important aspects of the Red Cross Report is thatit clarifies the true cause of those deaths that undoubtedly occurred in the camps toward the end of the war.

Says the Report: "In the chaotic condition of Germany after the invasion during the final months of the war, the camps received no food supplies at all and starvation claimed an increasing number of victims. Itself alarmed by this situation, the German Government at last informed the ICRC on February 1st, 1945 ... In March 1945, discussions between the President of the ICRC and General of the S.S. Kaltenbrunner gave even more decisive results. Relief could henceforth be distributed by the ICRC, and one delegate was authorised to stay in each camp ..." (Vol. III, p. 83).

Clearly, the German authorities were at pains to relieve the dire situation as far as they were able.

The Red Cross are quite explicit in stating that food supplies ceased at this time due to the Allied bombing of German transportation, and in the interests of interned Jews they had protested on March 15th, 1944 against "the barbarous aerial warfare of the Allies" (Inter Arma Caritas, p. 78).

By October 2nd, 1944, the ICRC warned the German Foreign Office of the impending collapse of the German transportation system, declaring that starvation conditions for people throughout Germany were becoming inevitable.

In dealing with this comprehensive, three-volume Report, it is important to stress that the delegates of the International Red Cross found no evidence whatever at the camps in Axis occupied Europe of a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews.

In all its 1,600 pages the Report does not even mention such a thing as a gas chamber. It admits that Jews, like many other wartime nationalities, suffered rigours and privations, but its complete silence on the subject of planned extermination is ample refutation of the Six Million legend.

Like the Vatican representatives with whom they worked, the Red Cross found itself unable to indulge in the irresponsible charges of genocide which had become the order of the day. So far as the genuine mortality rate is concerned, the Report points out that most of the Jewish doctors from the camps were being used to combat typhus on the eastern front, so that they were unavailable when the typhus epidemics of 1945 broke out in the camps (Vol. I, p. 204 ff) - Incidentally, it is frequently claimed that mass executions were carried out in gas chambers cunningly disguised as shower facilities.

Again the Report makes nonsense of this allegation. "Not only the washing places, but installations for baths, showers and laundry were inspected by the delegates. They had often to take action to have fixtures made less primitive, and to get them repaired or enlarged" (Vol. III, p. 594).

Not All Were Interned

Volume III of the Red Cross Report, Chapter 3 (I. Jewish Civilian Population) deals with the "aid given to the Jewish section of the free population," and this chapter makes it quite plain that by no means all of the European Jews were placed in internment camps, but remained, subject to certain restrictions, as part of the free civilian population.

This conflicts directly with the "thoroughness" of the supposed "extermination programme", and with the claim in the forged Höss memoirs that Eichmann was obsessed with seizing "every single Jew he could lay his hands on."

In Slovakia, for example, where Eichmann's assistant Dieter Wisliceny was in charge, the Report states that "A large proportion of the Jewish minority had permission to stay in the country, and at certain periods Slovakia was looked upon as a comparative haven of refuge for Jews, especially for those coming from Poland. Those who remained in Slovakia seem to have been in comparative safety until the end of August 1944, when a rising against the German forces took place. While it is true that the law of May 15th, 1942 had brought about the internment of several thousand Jews, these people were held in camps where the conditions of food and lodging were tolerable, and where the internees were allowed to do paid work on terms almost equal to those of the free labour market" (Vol. I, p. 646).

Not only did large numbers of the three million or so European Jews avoid internment altogether, but the emigration of Jews continued throughout the war, generally by way of Hungary, Rumania and Turkey.

Ironically, post-war Jewish emigration from German-occupied territories was also facilitated by the Reich, as in the case of the Polish Jews who had escaped to France before its occupation. "The Jews from Poland who, whilst in France, had obtained entrance permits to the United States were held to be American citizens by the German occupying authorities, who further agreed to recognize the validity of about three thousand passports issued to Jews by the consulates of South American countries" (Vol. I, p. 645).

As future U.S. citizens, these Jews were held at the Vittel camp in southern France for American aliens. The emigration of European Jews from Hungary in particular proceeded during the war unhindered by the German authorities. "Until March 1944," says the. Red Cross Report, "Jews who had the privilege of visas for Palestine were free to leave Hungary" (Vol. I, p. 648).

Even after the replacement of the Horthy Government in 1944 (following its attempted armistice with the Soviet Union) with a government more dependent on German authority, the emigration of Jews continued.

The Committee secured the pledges of both Britain and the United States "to give support by every means to the emigration of Jews from Hungary," and from the U.S. Government the ICRC received a message stating that "The Government of the United States ... now specifically repeats its assurance that arrangements will be made by it for the care of all Jews who in the present circumstances are allowed to leave" (Vol. I, p . 649).

Biedermann agreed that in the nineteen instances that "Did Six Million Really Die?" quoted from the Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross on its Activities during the Second World War and Inter Arma Caritas (this includes the above material), it did so accurately.

A quote from Charles Biedermann (a delegate of the International Committee of the Red Cross and Director of the Red Cross' International Tracing Service) under oath at the Zündel Trial (February 9, 10, 11 and 12, 1988).

The Jews And The Concentration Camps:
A Factual Appraisal By The Red Cross.
The above is Chapter Nine from the book
"Did Six Million Really Die?"

WMM

Dingo

12-06-2005, 03:36 PM

Bubba knows better than to place this thread in Curent Events. Not only has this been explained to him on the public forum but in PMs as well. He does it in open defiance. He is a long-term poster here and I have no taste for applying sanctions but he gets three days to think about whether he is willing to cooperate with the community or not.

Lib, the title of this forum is Israel/Palestine. Bubblebrain is dealing in the area of holocaust denial. This topic does not for the most part address the conflict between the two ME parties or even deal with Israel persay. I understand and sympathise with what you are trying to do in providing a broad topic genre its own home, particularly because there are some who make Jews and their supposed sins an almost exclusive hobby horse. Still you are wandering into slippery slope territory. It seems like we need a little title adjustment or some further clarity on what is in or out. Do all matters that have a noncurrent Jewish focus belong here? What about your signature statement?

Let me start off with a title suggestion. It's awkward but I think encompasses the genre we want to pull together.
Critical discussions principally related to Israel, Jews and Palestinians.
Other folks might want to weigh in on a better forum title.

Neurobürger

12-12-2005, 05:33 PM

International Red Cross Accused of Being "Used & probably controlled" by German intelligence during WWII

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From the Detroit Free Press, August 30, 1996, p. 6A:

WWII documents bolster Nazi-Red Cross connection
By Arthur Spiegelman

Reuters

CHICAGO -- The International Committee of the Red Cross, which prides itself on being nonpolitical, is accused in previously secret World War II documents of being used and "probably controlled" at its highest levels by German intelligence.

The U.S. intelligence documents allege that ICRC representatives worked as agents conveying military information to Berlin, even using U.S. diplomatic mail to get material out. They also allege Red Cross pouches were used to ferry German assets into Switzerland and the group itself was used to smuggle German agents across European borders.

Marked "Washington office items not previously released," the Office of Strategic Services documents were found recently in the U.S. National Archives by World Jewish Congress researchers trying to trace assets of Holocaust victims.

In Geneva, ICRC spokesman Kim Gordon-Bates said: "We know that documents are being made available...from various archives but we have not seen them and cannot comment."

But he added the ICRC, a Nobel Peace Prize winner, works under difficult ethical and practical guidelines. It always tried to recruit the best people but mistakes could be made, especially during war, he said.

One OSS document, dated Jan. 11, 1944, says: "A series of observations commenced by the French and continued by this organization indicate that the I.R.C.C. is probably controlled by the German I.S. The German delegate to the I.R.C.C. in Geneva is known to be a German agent and the head of the I.R.C.C. to be German controlled."

The document adds: "Enough is known to warrant the assumption that any delegate of the I.R.C.C. should be considered a potential if not actual German I.S. agent." The letters I.S. stood for Intelligence Service.

The OSS was the wartime U.S. intelligence agency and the forerunner of the Central Intelligence Agency.

Another document, dated Feb. 4, 1944, says: "Information has come from various sources which indicates that the International Red Cross may have a number of people in its organization and indeed, on its executive staff, who are either German agents or associates of German agents, and who are using the Red Cross...as a cover for the securing and transmitting of military information."

In 1995, the ICRC, which coordinates Red Cross work around the world, acknowledge its "moral failure" during the war -- a reference to its failure to denounce atrocities against Jews and other minorities in Hitler's concentration camps.

A spokesman for the World Jewish Congress said the more than 200 pages of documents had been turned over to the Senate Banking Committee, headed by Sen. Alfonse D'Amato, R-N.Y., for investigation.

A May 21, 1945, document said Red Cross pouches were being used to smuggle "concentrated forms of wealth" from Germany to Turkey and then to Switzerland. A Feb. 4, 1944, document said the Red Cross representative in French North Africa "may be involved in the intelligence activities of the enemy but the evidence is not conclusive as yet. He is said by some to be very stupid and by others to be an enemy agent, not so stupid. In any case many of his associates are suspect."

That document also says the Red Cross was being used by the Germans to smuggle agents out of France.

An August 1945 document said a Red Cross representative suspected of being a German agent was using the U.S. diplomatic pouch in Algiers to send materials out of the country and evade censorship.

One Red Cross representative in Cairo is described in an Aug. 16, 1945, document as "one of the most dangerous pro-fascists among Swiss residents abroad." Another Swiss national representing the Red Cross in Istanbul is described as "entertaining girls" from local bars and paying them to collect information from U.S. and British servicemen.

Gordon-Bates said the ICRC had been informed earlier about an alleged pro-Nazi delegate in Turkey and had asked an independent historian to investigate. The delegate was accused of using the ICRC pouch to transfer funds.

"He did in fact misuse the ICRC diplomatic pouch to transfer funds, but we don't know what these funds were, whether they were Jewish funds," Gordon-Bates said.

He said the historian will try to find out whether the delegate acted alone. He also said the man was "cashiered" from the ICRC in 1945 as soon as the agency learned of his activities.

"But we would like to know whether the rot went any deeper. We're very keen to find out about this," Gordon-Bates said, adding: "We're not making excuses. We're saying that whatever emerged is possible. It's something we'll have to live with and hope that it will never happen again."

whitemajikman

12-20-2005, 02:55 PM

Art Spiegelman
AKA Arthur Spiegelman

Born: 15-Feb-1948
Birthplace: Stockholm, Sweden

Gender: Male
Religion: Jewish
Ethnicity: White
Sexual orientation: Straight
Occupation: Cartoonist

Nationality: United States
Executive summary: Underground cartoonist wrote Maus

Wife: Francoise Mouly (one daughter, one son)
Daughter: Nadja (b. 1987)
Son: Dashiell (b. 1992)

Teacher: School of Visual Arts, New York City

The New Yorker (-2002)
Pulitzer Prize 1992 (special)

Author of books:
Maus: A Survivor's Tale (1986, comic)
Maus: from Mauschwitz to the Catskills (1991, comic)

WMM