Climate Change

[halva]

I suppose there is one advantage to a state of anarchy.

When there are intelligent and englightened moderators, people of the Reynolds type (and more particularly hangers-on) expend half their energy inventing Jesuitical, pharisaical and perverse ways to interpret the written regulations so as to justify whatever they happen to want to do.

The comatose "moderating" at this forum spares them of any need to divert energy in that direction.

[Boomer Chick]

OK, let's just accept and realize that indeed the whole planet's climate patterns are changing. This we can agree upon? It is scientifically a fact that patterns are in a state of flux and change? Yes? Jay, yes? OB, yes? WMM, yes? halva, yes? David, yes? FS, yes? It has to be yes because compared to the past three decades possibly more, there is change. Now that should be safe enough to say. Whether it's warmer in some parts, warmer in some oceans, and cooler in some parts and cooler in some oceans, the climate pattern and weather patterns have changed. We've learned this much.

Some news today: Canada will not fund their Climate Change department:

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/apr2006/2006-04-04-01.asp

Our latest gov. funded research and partnerships:

http://www.usgcrp.gov/usgcrp/Library/ocp2006/default.htm

Main page:

http://www.climatescience.gov/

UK climate change adaptation programs: Tyndall Center

http://www.tyndall.ac.uk/research/theme3/theme3.shtml

Papers published by Tyndall Center:
http://www.tyndall.ac.uk/publications/working_papers/working_papers.shtml

International Journal of Climatology:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/jhome/4735?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

David Suzuki Foundation:

http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Climate_Change/

Green business leaders and cities: (Cananda is featured) :

http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Climate_Change/Solutions/Green_Leaders.asp

UNFCCC: United Nation Framework Convention on Climate Change:

http://unfccc.int/2860.php

***

So as you can see, there are changes in climate and weather and the whole world is onboard with research, agreements to change and educate, industrial adaptations, governmental legislative funding for change adaptation, research, education, and a whole new generation of business is being generated as well. How can we lose with this adaptive approach?

You do realize that with one or two major volcanoes the whole warming situation could change in a matter of hours, don't you? Volcanoes add particulates and gases into the upper atmosphere that behave like Carl Sagan's "nuclear winter" so remember that as we go on into the future. Climate responds to many variables and its fluidity cannot be denied. Nonetheless, restricting greenhouse gases as we transition into alternative clean and renewable energies is simply a reality and in some cases may actually stimulate warming and in other places stimulate cooling..... as we adapt, the climate will probably present more challenges, ones we can't imagine as yet, even. Give us a couple of gigantic volcanic eruptions and the whole planet could change abruptly in opposing temperature directions. It's all quite fun, don't you think?

[OBPelican]

OK, let's just accept and realize that indeed the whole planet's climate patterns are changing. This we can agree upon? It is scientifically a fact that patterns are in a state of flux and change? Yes? Jay, yes? OB, yes?-------Yes Mam.

Golly, I forgot about the volcanoes you brought up, just when I was getting used to all the other calamities. But then as someone who lives on top of constant plate tectonic movements, I should remember that all that's sliding around on the same stuff that comes out of volcanoes.

As Gilda Radner used to say, "It's Always Something."

[Boomer Chick]

Yes Mam.

Golly, I forgot about the volcanoes you brought up, just when I was getting used to all the other calamities. But then as someone who lives on top of constant plate tectonic movements, I should remember that all that's sliding around on the same stuff that comes out of volcanoes.

As Gilda Radner used to say, "It's Always Something."

ROFLMBO!!!! "Golly! " Besheeepers!!! And often quote the great GR~!! Often!

Well I'm just surprised that this little blue planet on an outer arm of the Milky Way Galaxy has lasted as long as it has when you consider all the astroids, comets, and other space debris not to mention various solar behaviors! For God's sake, someone or something must be looking out for us! Hehehehe!

Remember, you just pop out of your body and go to another dimension upon death, anyway, so once you get a handle on the fact that we're all immortal .....you can relax a bit!

Now check out my links when you get a chance. I looked at each one of them before I posted!

Peace, my siblings! Peace!

[Boomer Chick]

Google Alert for: global warming





Warming Shots (http://www.claremont.org/weblog/004788.html)
Local Liberty Blog - Claremont,CA,USA
The problem with global warming is not that we know so much, but rather that we know so little. Scientists who study the climate ...
See all stories on this topic (http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&hl=en&client=google&ncl=http://www.claremont.org/weblog/004788.html)

Congress begins to feel heat from global warming danger (http://www.insidebayarea.com/argus/localnews/ci_3670601)
The Argus - Fremont,CA,USA
... Pete Domenici said he wanted to know if global warming was real. He turned for answers to a federal lab that he had gazed on admiringly since he was a boy. ...
See all stories on this topic (http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&hl=en&client=google&ncl=http://www.insidebayarea.com/argus/localnews/ci_3670601)

Global Warming Legislation Should Take Economic Approach; NCPA ... (http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/-global-warming-legislation-should-take-economic-approach-ncpa-/2006/04/04/1536829.htm)
TMCnet - USA
(Comtex Energy Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge)DALLAS, Apr 4, 2006 (US Newswire via COMTEX) --On the day of Senate hearings into global warming legislation that ...
See all stories on this topic (http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&hl=en&client=google&ncl=http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/-global-warming-legislation-should-take-economic-approach-ncpa-/2006/04/04/1536829.htm)

Foes in 'Global Warming' Debate Fuss Over Witness List (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200604/CUL20060404a.html)
CNSNews.com - Alexandria,VA,USA
By Marc Morano. (CNSNews.com) - Neither side in the "global warming" debate is happy over the witness list compiled by the Senate Energy and Natural Resources ...


Americans Gearing up to Fight Global Warming (http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/04/1154214)
Slashdot - USA
TechnoGuyRob writes "Global warming has been one of the most controversial and debated issues in the political and scientific sphere. ...
See all stories on this topic (http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&hl=en&client=google&ncl=http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl%3Fsid%3D06/04/04/1154214)

Proposal targets global warming (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/14258555.htm)
San Jose Mercury News - CA, USA
... is poised to become the first state in the nation to enforce a comprehensive limit on the air pollution that causes global warming, under legislation announced ...
See all stories on this topic (http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&hl=en&client=google&ncl=http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/14258555.htm)

Former EPA chief will discuss global warming on April 11 (http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2006/april5/browner-040506.html)
Stanford Report - USA
The lecture, "Global Warming: Coming Soon to a City Near You," is free and open to the Stanford community, but seating is limited. A reception will follow. ...


CBS News Text Videos The Web (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2006/04/04/publiceye/entry1468234.shtml)
CBS News - USA
... So the weather report would be a fitting, if not exclusive, place to inform the global warming discussion. I'm not sure I understand the logic here. ...
See all stories on this topic (http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&hl=en&client=google&ncl=http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2006/04/04/publiceye/entry1468234.shtml)

Social Venture Network Offsets Global Warming Pollution (http://www.socialfunds.com/news/release.cgi/5339.html)
SocialFunds.com - USA
... a just and sustainable world, plans to make its annual member gathering carbon neutral with Carbonfund.org, as a practical step to combat global warming. ...
Global Warming Hysteria Has Arrived (http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=040406C)
TCS Daily - Washington,DC,USA
... The majority of panelists that will provide testimony in the hearing are for a cap-and-trade program, suggesting the Committee views global warming to be a ...
See all stories on this topic (http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&hl=en&client=google&ncl=http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx%3Fid%3D040406C)

[jayreynolds]

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=scienceNews&storyID=2006-04-05T184211Z_01_L05517806_RTRIDST_0_SCIENCE-ENVIRONMENT-CLIMATE-DC.XML
"Scientists in dispute over carbon curbs - magazine
Wed Apr 5, 2006 7:41 PM BST
Printer Friendly | Email Article | RSS

LONDON (Reuters) - A row has broken out between scientists seeking a way to bring more nations into the carbon curbing fold after the first phase of the Kyoto Treaty expires in 2012, New Scientist magazine said on Wednesday.

On one side is a plan that would in effect set a global target for each nation's per capita carbon output, on the other is one that rates a country's carbon output against its biocapacity or geophysical ability to absorb it.

The latter, by Geoff Hammond at the University of Bath, would remove the United States from pole position as the world's worst polluter but bring up Bangladesh with a very small carbon footprint but equally little absorption capacity for the gases, including carbon dioxide and methane.

The United States, which has rejected Kyoto as economic suicide, only produces slightly more carbon than it can absorb.

Japan, by contrast, has a per capita carbon footprint half that of the United States but overshoots its absorption capacity by seven times.

Aubrey Meyer, of the British-based Global Commons Institute, who formulated the per capita carbon plan, dismisses Hammond's proposal as naive and dangerous, according to the magazine.

"While appearing to be helpful and reasonable, it would be another means for the rich to bully the poor," it quoted him as saying.

For his part Hammond rejected Mayer's plan as utopian, "given the reluctance of the United States to take even modest steps to reduce emissions," the magazine said.

"Living within national biocapacities might be something the U.S. could eventually accept," it quoted him as saying.

Signatories to Kyoto, which only came into force in February last year, commits nations to cut carbon emissions which are blamed for causing global warming.

But it only runs until 2012, does not include the United States or Australia, and is not binding on major developing nations such as China and India.

With the world already facing potentially catastrophic climate change, the search is on to find some mechanism to take Kyoto beyond its expiry date and make it both more inclusive and effective."

[Boomer Chick]

Thanks, Jay, and here's one for you:

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=040406C

On April 4, the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee will hold a hearing to discuss a white paper that Senators Jeff Bingaman (D-NM) and Pete Domenici (R-NM) released on a mandatory cap and trade program for carbon dioxide emissions. The majority of panelists that will provide testimony in the hearing are for a cap-and-trade program, suggesting the Committee views global warming to be a serious problem and that a cap-and-trade approach is the preferred mechanism for fighting it.



The hearing's timing couldn't be better, as it coincides with an intense global warming propaganda campaign by the media that is currently underway. The latest issue of Time magazine has a cover story on global warming entitled "Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid". (I wonder if this is meant to provide some balance for stories about the coming ice age that Time published as recently as 1994?)



One of the new Public Service Commission's TV ads uses a freight train about to hit a little girl as a metaphor for the horrible impact of global warming on our children's future in just thirty years. (Even if the recent warming trend, since the 1970's, continues for another thirty years, global temperatures will only rise another 1 degree F.)



For those of us who are visual learners, Al Gore has a new global warming movie coming out in May entitled "An Inconvenient Truth" which no doubt will be met by critical acclaim, Oscar nominations (probably not for best actor, though), and a possible Nobel Prize.



Science magazine recently stuffed as many articles as it could find on the world's melting ice sheets, even though the bulk of the published temperature evidence shows no warming over Greenland or most of Antarctica in recent decades.



One wonders, what in the world is going on here?



It seems an undercurrent of anti-technology, anti-progress, anti-humanity sentiment is beginning to grip our culture. Al Gore has been giving very effective, impassioned speeches on the ecological destruction that mankind is unleashing upon Mother Earth. With a mixture of science half-truths and religious zeal, Gore is very successfully rallying thousands of people to his cause.



In an age where many of us believe that science has all the answers, while others believe that religion has all the answers, a clever mixture of science and religion can be very powerful. Even some of our scientists are joining in the chorus: NASA's Jim Hansen thinks we might have only ten years left before irreversible harm is done.



For any of these fears to have an objective basis in fact, one has to believe that the climate system is very sensitive to the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. I have read recent statements, even from the World Meteorological Organization, that CO2 is the "most important greenhouse gas in the atmosphere," which is blatantly false. The warming effect of Earth's most abundant greenhouse gas, water vapor, is about ten times that of carbon dioxide. Water vapor amounts, even globally averaged, go through large fluctuations, with particularly large upward excursions during warm El Niño events. Yet, the climate system never spins out of control. Why is this?



The answer might reside in the fact that about 75 percent of the warming potential of greenhouse gases is never allowed to occur. Weather processes, in the form of clouds and precipitation, cool the climate to temperatures well below what they would otherwise be from Earth's natural greenhouse effect. To believe in catastrophic warming, one would need good knowledge of how clouds, and especially precipitation processes (which is how water vapor is continuously removed from the atmosphere), change with warming. I do not believe we yet have this knowledge.



Yet, the feeling persists that "we need to do something," even if the science isn't settled yet (indeed, the science might never be 'settled'). I would agree whole-heartedly with the sentiment if it were easy to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. It is not. Until major technological advances are made, or people start embracing nuclear power again, carbon dioxide emissions will continue to rise, especially in India and China.



The Bingaman and Domenici hearing on April 4 is a distraction from the real debate this country (indeed, the world) needs to have about how to (or whether it is even advisable to) reduce carbon dioxide emissions now.



And more scientists who don't believe in predictions of climate catastrophe need to rise above their fears of losing funding and speak out. Otherwise, this growing storm of global warming hysteria could do some real damage.



Dr. Roy Spencer is a principal research scientist for the University of Alabama in Huntsville and the U.S. Science Team Leader for the Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer (AMSR-E) on NASA's Aqua satellite. He is also a member of the TCS Science Roundtable. (http://www.tcsdaily.com/sections/science_roundtable.aspx)


Click here for more TCS Daily special coverage of this issue. (http://www.tcsdaily.com/sections/science_roundtable.aspx)


BC

[jayreynolds]

Breaking News: "Warmer is Better": Canada Reverses Stand on Global Warming

"Warmer is Better": Canada Reverses Global Warming Stand
Popular summer sports like ice diving could end under a new Canadian policy of encouraging large increases in greenhouse gas emissions.



(Ottawa, Ontario) Canada's new conservative leadership has decided to not only ignore its carbon dioxide emission limits imposed by the Kyoto treaty it agreed to, but is now advocating greatly increased emissions.

"Let's be honest", said Natural Resources Minister Larry Gunn, "Canadians are tired of freezing to death eleven months out of the year and having to drive to Florida just to thaw out. We use a huge amount of energy for heating, and the warmer we can make the climate, the better off Canada will be. Just look where we all live…98 percent of us are on the border of our country, where it is warmer. It is time to face the truth - warmer is better."

The change in position brought swift condemnation from environmental groups. Enjoying a well-deserved rest in Cozumel, Mexico, a tanned Greenpolice spokeswoman Rainbow Treetower chided, "Canada will regret this decision. We are already mobilizing our workers to march on Ottawa. As soon as the St. Lawrence River is ice free later this summer, we will be sailing to Ottawa to organize widespread demonstrations."

In a curious twist, the recently cancelled "One Tonne Challenge" program, which encouraged Canadians to reduce their carbon emissions by one tonne, is being reinstated with a goal of increasing emissions by one tonne instead. "We are encouraging Canadians to do their part to improve Canada's frigid climate by increasing their energy use as much as possible. As the interior of our country thaws out, we expect a gradual spreading of people and commerce inland. We will be able to safely inhabit places where only the bravest of us have been willing to venture to up until now."

There are still some Canadians that are skeptical of the new plan, however. An employee of 'Mikes Ice Diving Rentals' in Toronto expressed concern that their wetsuit rental business will be hurt if summer water temperatures were allowed to warm up too much. "It will be economic disaster for us if it ever reaches the point where people only need to put on a swimsuit to go in the water", he lamented.

[halva]

http://www.heatisonline.org/contentserver/objecthandlers/index.cfm?ID=5902&Method=Full&PageCall=&Title=Canada%27s%20Harper%20Attacked%20By%20Swarm% 20of%20Skeptics%20&Cache=False

Canada's Harper Attacked By Swarm of Skeptics
Sixty scientists call on Harper to revisit the science of global warming

Special to the Financial Post, April 6, 2006

An open letter to Prime Minister Stephen Harper:

Dear Prime Minister:

As accredited experts in climate and related scientific disciplines, we are writing to propose that balanced, comprehensive public-consultation sessions be held so as to examine the scientific foundation of the federal government's climate-change plans. This would be entirely consistent with your recent commitment to conduct a review of the Kyoto Protocol. Although many of us made the same suggestion to then-prime ministers Martin and Chretien, neither responded, and, to date, no formal, independent climate-science review has been conducted in Canada. Much of the billions of dollars earmarked for implementation of the protocol in Canada will be
squandered without a proper assessment of recent developments in climate science.

Observational evidence does not support today's computer climate models, so there is little reason to trust model predictions of the future. Yet this is precisely what the United Nations did in creating and promoting Kyoto and still does in the alarmist forecasts on which Canada's climate policies are based. Even if the climate models were realistic, the environmental impact of Canada delaying implementation of Kyoto or other greenhouse-gas reduction schemes, pending completion of consultations, would be insignificant. Directing your government to convene balanced, open hearings as soon as possible would be a most prudent and responsible course of action.

While the confident pronouncements of scientifically unqualified environmental groups may provide for sensational headlines, they are no basis for mature policy formulation. The study of global climate change is, as you have said, an "emerging science," one that is perhaps the most complex ever tackled. It may be many years yet before we properly understand the Earth's climate system. Nevertheless, significant advances have been made since the protocol was created, many of which are taking us away from a concern about increasing greenhouse gases. If, back in the mid-1990s, we knew what we know today about climate, Kyoto would almost certainly not exist, because we would have concluded it was not necessary.

We appreciate the difficulty any government has formulating sensible science-based policy when the loudest voices always seem to be pushing in the opposite direction. However, by convening open, unbiased consultations, Canadians will be permitted to hear from experts on both sides of the debate in the climate-science community.

When the public comes to understand that there is no "consensus" among climate scientists about the relative importance of the various causes of global climate change, the government will be in a far better position to develop plans that reflect reality and so benefit both the environment and the economy.

"Climate change is real" is a meaningless phrase used repeatedly by activists to convince the public that a climate catastrophe is looming and humanity is the cause. Neither of these fears is justified. Global climate changes all the time due to natural causes and the human impact still remains impossible to distinguish from this natural "noise." The new Canadian government's commitment to reducing air, land and water pollution is commendable, but allocating funds to "stopping climate change" would be irrational. We need to continue intensive research into the real causes of climate change and help our most vulnerable citizens adapt to whatever nature throws at us next.

We believe the Canadian public and government decision-makers need and deserve to hear the whole story concerning this very complex issue. It was only 30 years ago that many of today's global-warming alarmists were telling us that the world was in the midst of a global-cooling catastrophe. But the science continued to evolve, and still does, even though so many choose to ignore it when it does not fit with predetermined political agendas.

We hope that you will examine our proposal carefully and we stand willing and able to furnish you with more information on this crucially important topic.

CC: The Honourable Rona Ambrose, Minister of the Environment, and the Honourable Gary Lunn, Minister of Natural Resources

[halva]

Sincerely,

Dr. Ian D. Clark, professor, isotope hydrogeology and paleoclimatology, Dept. of Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa

Dr. Tad Murty, former senior research scientist, Dept. of Fisheries and Oceans, former director of Australia's National Tidal Facility and professor of earth sciences, Flinders University, Adelaide; currently adjunct professor, Departments of Civil Engineering and Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa

Dr. R. Timothy Patterson, professor, Dept. of Earth Sciences (paleoclimatology), Carleton University, Ottawa

Dr. Fred Michel, director, Institute of Environmental Science and associate professor, Dept. of Earth Sciences, Carleton University, Ottawa

Dr. Madhav Khandekar, former research scientist, Environment Canada. Member of editorial board of Climate Research and Natural Hazards

Dr. Paul Copper, FRSC, professor emeritus, Dept. of Earth Sciences, Laurentian University, Sudbury, Ont.

Dr. Ross McKitrick, associate professor, Dept. of Economics, University of Guelph, Ont.

Dr. Tim Ball, former professor of climatology, University of Winnipeg; environmental consultant

Dr. Andreas Prokocon, adjunct professor of earth sciences, University of Ottawa; consultant in statistics and geology

Mr. David Nowell, M.Sc. (Meteorology), fellow of the Royal Meteorological Society, Canadian member and past chairman of the NATO Meteorological Group, Ottawa

Dr. Christopher Essex, professor of applied mathematics and associate director of the Program in Theoretical Physics, University of Western Ontario, London, Ont.

Dr. Gordon E. Swaters, professor of applied mathematics, Dept. of Mathematical Sciences, and member, Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Research Group, University of Alberta

Dr. L. Graham Smith, associate professor, Dept. of Geography, University of Western Ontario, London, Ont.

Dr. G. Cornelis van Kooten, professor and Canada Research Chair in environmental studies and climate change, Dept. of Economics, University of Victoria

Dr. Petr Chylek, adjunct professor, Dept. of Physics and Atmospheric Science, Dalhousie University, Halifax

Dr./Cdr. M. R. Morgan, FRMS, climate consultant, former meteorology advisor to the World Meteorological Organization. Previously research scientist in climatology at University of Exeter, U.K.

Dr. Keith D. Hage, climate consultant and professor emeritus of Meteorology, University of Alberta

Dr. David E. Wojick, P.Eng., energy consultant, Star Tannery, Va., and Sioux Lookout, Ont.

Rob Scagel, M.Sc., forest microclimate specialist, principal consultant, Pacific Phytometric Consultants, Surrey, B.C.

Dr. Douglas Leahey, meteorologist and air-quality consultant, Calgary

Paavo Siitam, M.Sc., agronomist, chemist, Cobourg, Ont.

Dr. Chris de Freitas, climate scientist, associate professor, The University of Auckland, N.Z.

Dr. Richard S. Lindzen, Alfred P. Sloan professor of meteorology, Dept. of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences, Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Dr. Freeman J. Dyson, emeritus professor of physics, Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton, N.J.

Mr. George Taylor, Dept. of Meteorology, Oregon State University; Oregon State climatologist; past president, American Association of State Climatologists

Dr. Ian Plimer, professor of geology, School of Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Adelaide; emeritus professor of earth sciences, University of Melbourne, Australia

Dr. R.M. Carter, professor, Marine Geophysical Laboratory, James Cook University, Townsville, Australia

Mr. William Kininmonth, Australasian Climate Research, former Head National Climate Centre, Australian Bureau of Meteorology; former Australian delegate to World Meteorological Organization Commission for Climatology, Scientific and Technical Review

Dr. Hendrik Tennekes, former director of research, Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute

Dr. Gerrit J. van der Lingen, geologist/paleoclimatologist, Climate Change Consultant, Geoscience Research and Investigations, New Zealand

Dr. Patrick J. Michaels, professor of environmental sciences, University of Virginia

Dr. Nils-Axel Morner, emeritus professor of paleogeophysics & geodynamics, Stockholm University, Stockholm, Sweden

Dr. Gary D. Sharp, Center for Climate/Ocean Resources Study, Salinas, Calif.

Dr. Roy W. Spencer, principal research scientist, Earth System Science Center, The University of Alabama, Huntsville

Dr. Al Pekarek, associate professor of geology, Earth and Atmospheric Sciences Dept., St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud, Minn.

Dr. Marcel Leroux, professor emeritus of climatology, University of Lyon, France; former director of Laboratory of Climatology, Risks and Environment, CNRS

Dr. Paul Reiter, professor, Institut Pasteur, Unit of Insects and Infectious Diseases, Paris, France. Expert reviewer, IPCC Working group II, chapter 8 (human health)

Dr. Zbigniew Jaworowski, physicist and chairman, Scientific Council of Central Laboratory for Radiological Protection, Warsaw, Poland

Dr. Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen, reader, Dept. of Geography, University of Hull, U.K.; editor, Energy & Environment

Dr. Hans H.J. Labohm, former advisor to the executive board, Clingendael Institute (The Netherlands Institute of International Relations) and an economist who has focused on climate change

Dr. Lee C. Gerhard, senior scientist emeritus, University of Kansas, past director and state geologist, Kansas Geological Survey

Dr. Asmunn Moene, past head of the Forecasting Centre, Meteorological Institute, Norway

Dr. August H. Auer, past professor of atmospheric science, University of Wyoming; previously chief meteorologist, Meteorological Service (MetService) of New Zealand

Dr. Vincent Gray, expert reviewer for the IPCC and author of The Greenhouse Delusion: A Critique of 'Climate Change 2001,' Wellington, N.Z.

Dr. Howard Hayden, emeritus professor of physics, University of Connecticut

Dr Benny Peiser, professor of social anthropology, Faculty of Science, Liverpool John Moores University, U.K.

Dr. Jack Barrett, chemist and spectroscopist, formerly with Imperial College London, U.K.

Dr. William J.R. Alexander, professor emeritus, Dept. of Civil and Biosystems Engineering, University of Pretoria, South Africa. Member, United Nations Scientific and Technical Committee on Natural Disasters, 1994-2000

Dr. S. Fred Singer, professor emeritus of environmental sciences, University of Virginia; former director, U.S. Weather Satellite Service

Dr. Harry N.A. Priem, emeritus professor of planetary geology and isotope geophysics, Utrecht University; former director of the Netherlands Institute for Isotope Geosciences; past president of the Royal Netherlands Geological & Mining Society

Dr. Robert H. Essenhigh, E.G. Bailey professor of energy conversion, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering, The Ohio State University

Dr. Sallie Baliunas, astrophysicist and climate researcher, Boston, Mass.

Douglas Hoyt, senior scientist at Raytheon (retired) and co-author of the book The Role of the Sun in Climate Change; previously with NCAR, NOAA, and the World Radiation Center, Davos, Switzerland

Dipl.-Ing. Peter Dietze, independent energy advisor and scientific climate and carbon modeller, official IPCC reviewer, Bavaria, Germany

Dr. Boris Winterhalter, senior marine researcher (retired), Geological Survey of Finland, former professor in marine geology, University of Helsinki, Finland

Dr. Wibjorn Karlen, emeritus professor, Dept. of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology, Stockholm University, Sweden

Dr. Hugh W. Ellsaesser, physicist/meteorologist, previously with the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Calif.; atmospheric consultant.

Dr. Art Robinson, founder, Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, Cave Junction, Ore.

Dr. Arthur Rorsch, emeritus professor of molecular genetics, Leiden University, The Netherlands; past board member, Netherlands organization for applied research (TNO) in environmental, food and public health

Dr. Alister McFarquhar, Downing College, Cambridge, U.K.; international economist

Dr. Richard S. Courtney, climate and atmospheric science consultant, IPCC expert reviewer, U.K.

(C) National Post 2006

[jayreynolds]

Novelist scientist silenced as Harper Tories quietly axe 15 Kyoto programs
Bruce Cheadle, Canadian Press
Published: Thursday, April 13, 2006
OTTAWA (CP) - A scientist with Environment Canada was ordered not to launch his global warming-themed novel Thursday at the same time the Conservative government was quietly axing a number of Kyoto programs.

The bizarre sequence of events on the eve of the Easter long weekend provided an ironic end-note to the week in which Prime Minister Stephen Harper introduced his first piece of legislation - aimed at improving accountability and transparency in government.

The day began with what was supposed to be the low-key launch of an aptly titled novel, Hotter than Hell.

Publisher Elizabeth Margaris said that Mark Tushingham, whose day job is as an Environment Canada scientist, was ordered not to appear at the National Press Club to give a speech discussing his science fiction story about global warming in the not-too-distant future.

"He got a directive from the department, cautioning him not to come to this meeting today," said Margaris of DreamCatcher Publishers.

"So I guess we're being stifled. This is incredible, I've never heard of such a thing," she said.

Margaris had driven to Ottawa from New Brunswick to attend the speech, where Tushingham was expected to talk about his novel and the science he based it on.

The novel imagines a world where global warming has made parts of the world too hot to live in, prompting a war between Canada and the U.S. over water resources.

"Due process for this event was not followed and that's why it was cancelled," said Ryan Sparrow, a spokesman for Environment Minister Rona Ambrose .

Publicity for the planned book launch identified Tushingham as an Evironment Canada scientist, Sparrow said, "and it was assumed that he would be representing the position of the department.

"We would not have objected to Mr. Tushingham's appreance if he had been referred to as a private citizen."

Harper says he was not aware of the details, but his government was elected on a platform that included developing a new plan to deal with climate change.

"I obviously not only hope, but expect, that all elements of the bureaucracy will be working with us to achieve our objectives," Harper said at an appearance in Wainright, Alta., Thursday.

The prime minister's comments might be seen as a clear warning to public servants thinking of straying from government orthodoxy.

Harper has been criticized for the tight control he wants to exercise on what cabinet ministers and civil servants say in public. He also opposes the Kyoto protocol, which many scientist believe could help slow global warming.

The scientific, or literary, muzzle was put on Tushingham just as the Tory government was preparing to quietly confirm it is killing off over a dozen research programs related to the Kyoto protocol.

Late Thursday afternoon, on the eve of a long weekend when governments traditionally dump bad news for the least possible public exposure, Natural Resources Minister Gary Lunn issued a news release saying 15 programs were being eliminated.

Lunn said the programs had run their course.

"The new government under Prime Minister Stephen Harper is committed to putting an end to the massive increase in (greenhouse gas) emissions that Canada has seen over the past decade," said a release.

"To do that, we need a new approach to addressing climate change that is effective and realistic for Canada."

Harper said the Conservative governing platform "will include measures we're going to develop over the next year or so to deal with both pollution and greenhouse gases."

But cabinet documents obtained by the Globe and Mail suggest the cuts won't stop at 15 programs.

The newspaper reported Thursday that the Conservatives will cut 80 per cent of programs aimed at curbing global warming at Environment Canada.

Budgets in other government departments aimed at climate change will be slashed by 40 per cent, the newspaper reported.

Liberal MP Scott Brison was crying foul Thursday.

"It is clear the Conservative government has no plans to listen to expert advice from their own department and is willing to sacrifice sound environmental policy to partisan ideology," said Brison.

Under the Kyoto treaty, Canada is committed to a six per cent cut in emissions from 1990 levels by 2012. Yet emissions have risen by 30 per cent. Harper has said the target is impossible to meet.

Leading environmentalists from across Canada say the opposition parties should defeat the government if it abandons the effort to meet Canada's Kyoto commitments.

Canada can meet its emissions-cutting target under the Kyoto Protocol despite government claims to the contrary, activists from eight environmental groups told a news conference Wednesday.

© The Canadian Press 2006
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=9243fc6e-580b-4f79-9f5a-ee0ba30e7658&k=19161

[OBPelican]

Here's the thread for all discussion on climate change, what causes it, and what remedies various groups and factions recommend to mitigate it. BC, the truth is, forget about scientists ever knowing anything for sure.

Last night I watched Nova on the 70 year quest to understand neutrinos because there were too many fission and fusion reactions that failed the conservation of energy test. One poor guy had most of his life wiped out even though he was right and was called an idiot for 40 years, until they gave him the Nobel Prize. But by then he was in his Nanni Nanni Nanni twilight years and could barely figure out that he was in Stockholm, but at least his family had a great week and are enjoying their inheritance.

So now we think we think we know there are 3 types/flavors/whatchamacallits, that they have mass and can no longer go at the speed of light, or not, or whatever.

There is a moral to this somewhere, but I'm still trying to figure out what it is, stay tuned.

So discussions about mankind's impact on Global Warming will only be useful to keep armies of scientists arguing until our descendants choke to death on the smog, run out of ice cubes, or drown.

[halva]

I suggested one thing that one could TRY to do about it, OBPelican, to clean up at least one tiny corner of the universe and set an example.

[halva]

OBPelican, you wrote in a private message to me:

"It's worth the effort trying to improve and increase citizen communications via this new internet tool we have available. The ballot box isn't working lately, so we really need a better way to increase participation for protecting and preserving the Democratic process, no matter how crude things get in the infant years."

[halva]

“CEASE AND DESIST PROMOTING THE CHEMTRAILS HOAX. I will personally do my best to encourage state and Federal prosecution for as many “chemtrail” promoters as I can. I will recommend they be tried under federal RICO and state criminal syndicalism laws if US citizens and as enemy combatants if non-US.”

[halva]

Of course Reynolds will do these things only if someone (who?) shoots down a non-existent "chemtrails" spraying aircraft with a missile.

[OBPelican]

OBPelican, you wrote in a private message to me:
"It's worth the effort trying to improve and increase citizen communications via this new internet tool we have available. The ballot box isn't working lately, so we really need a better way to increase participation for protecting and preserving the Democratic process, no matter how crude things get in the infant years."Yup, I said that, but after what the Pope prayed over the Easter weekend, I have now adopted the message I express in my new Signature:

“Peace On Earth and Goodwill Toward All Men” Shall Never Happen As Long As We Allow

The “Cult of Satan,” “Corruption and Violence” To Continue To Rule Humanity.

[halva]

OBPelican I made a very simple proposal to the moderators of this forum: namely that Jay Reynolds should be prevented from turning the Science in the News section of the forum into a gladiatorial arena.

Others have been totally excluded from this forum (or its predecessor) for sins which pale by comparison with Reynolds'.

If you don't like what your government has in mind e.g. for Iran, it is no different in spirit from what Reynolds has in mind for us. He thinks that we are Iranians. Is that a status you enjoy?

Not that these distinctions between friend and enemy have so much meaning in the era of the depleted-uranium battlefield anyway. Everyone is the enemy.

Already sections of the leadership of your country's military are in revolt. How long does it take before people at this forum get off their knees also?

[OBPelican]

OBPelican -----How long does it take before people at this forum get off their knees also?Very good question halva, and I keep asking it in similar ways myself.

My best answer is that until scientists discover a way to replace oil, we are all screwed no matter what We The People do.

Because even our greatest religious leader, The Pope doesn't even take action on his own prayers by driving out the "Cult of Satan" that Cardinal Law created in Boston to set an example himself. So our politicians will never really stop their own corruption and violence either.

Sorry about that halva, but failure appears to be the destiny of Humanity as long as we have no solutions to solve our energy problems.

[halva]

Very good question halva, and I keep asking it in similar ways myself.


Very well, don't just ask it but answer it by PMing Lib and Mike and telling them that you support the idea of Reynolds being restricted to other sections of the forum and not being allowed to disrupt discussions in the Science in the News section.

Once you do that, if we persuade the moderators, you might see some people coming back here from whom it is possible to learn something more than the endurance potential of one's own nerves.

[OBPelican]

Very well, don't just ask it but answer it by PMing Lib and Mike and telling them that you support the idea of Reynolds being restricted to other sections of the forum and not being allowed to disrupt discussions in the Science in the News section.
Once you do that, if we persuade the moderators, you might see some people coming back here from whom it is possible to learn something more than the endurance potential of one's own nerves.Maybe the answer was suggested in your previous post by your "knees" metaphor.

It occurred to me that the people of Greece were driven to their knees long before we were, so maybe that's the ultimate destiny of Democracy, and these forums are just a bellwether of American Democracy.

I really can't recommend anything other than clean up our language, e.g., to exclude Cheney's favorite "F" word that far too many use to command peoples attention.

[halva]

Things seem to be worse for you in the States than they are for us.

[OBPelican]

Things seem to be worse for you in the States than they are for us.I sure can't argue with that.

I guess since American science, politics and religion have failed us, we'll need to start praying that European and Asian scientists start solving the world's energy problems while we continue our Decline and Fall of American Democracy phase.

[Boomer Chick]

BC, the truth is, forget about scientists ever knowing anything for sure.

Last night I watched Nova on the 70 year quest to understand neutrinos because there were too many fission and fusion reactions that failed the conservation of energy test. One poor guy had most of his life wiped out even though he was right and was called an idiot for 40 years, until they gave him the Nobel Prize. But by then he was in his Nanni Nanni Nanni twilight years and could barely figure out that he was in Stockholm, but at least his family had a great week and are enjoying their inheritance.

So now we think we think we know there are 3 types/flavors/whatchamacallits, that they have mass and can no longer go at the speed of light, or not, or whatever.

There is a moral to this somewhere, but I'm still trying to figure out what it is, stay tuned.

So discussions about mankind's impact on Global Warming will only be useful to keep armies of scientists arguing until our descendants choke to death on the smog, run out of ice cubes, or drown.

You've written much truth in these lines which also tickle my humor response! *smiles!* Yes, to maintain that balance of humor, wit, and truth while we all choke into this 21st Century, "run out of ice cubes," drown, fry in the ozone, or be forced to live underground................. at least we can gripe about it and apologize on our collective gravestones! Problem might be, too, that mass graves might be the norm and therefore they'll be no time for eulogies or apologies!

Sick, ain't it? But somehow it all strikes me as funny this morning. Guess my overriding optimism still runs the show in my mind.

I had a dream last night that my hubby and I stayed in a downtown urban Chinese hotel that we had never heard of and ate the most delectable of dinners prepared with skill and artistry and totally unexpected and unknown to us before. It was like finding a treasure in an unexpected place. An old childhood girlfriend of mine joined us and the Asian women serving us and setting and clearing the tables were fun, happy, and gracious. They set the table up with flowers, cloth napkins and table cover and served the meal right in the hotel room. The food itself was other-worldly, unknown, but delectable..... beyond description. Our room was located right on the street where you could look out and see the people walking by. It was a strange and enchanting dream and if dreams are any indication of the future....we'll all do fine with the Asians in charge.

Whatever..... all politics is local.

The future is ours to build.

[Boomer Chick]

Notice that the issue of "global warming," an actual misnomer, stimulates climate discussion, stimulates scientific climate observation and data-collecting, stimulates economic development and the quest for alternative energies and adaptations. The oil people cannot accept the reality of "peak oil," and the opposing forces support the growth of alternative energies and continue to push their "warming" agenda in order to push the oil moguls off their thrones. I find the push for alternative energies the more noble of the two sides and whether the push is frought with false assumptions and scare tactics....it doesn't matter....what matters is the stimulation of adaptive technologies and accompanying economic independence from the choking oil/energy kings. And I hope the climate changes ruin the heroine crops around the world! It's time to collapse the whole system based on death, imprisonment, and pollution. The transition to the post-oil age could progress quickly and suddenly out of need and collapse or it could progress slowly and smoothly.

So yes, it seems as if Satan itself has a chokehold on the oil barons themselves and all who ride on their greasy coattails.

Google Alert for: global warming




Resolution would support efforts to curb global warming (http://www.tacomadailyindex.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=88&cat=23&id=629705&more=)
Tacoma Daily News - Tacoma,WA,USA
... Council are scheduled to consider a resolution April 18 that would affirm the City’s efforts to reduce greenhouse gases and curb global warming in accordance ...


Earth Day teach-in to focus on global warming threats (http://www.news.wisc.edu/12435.html)
University of Wisconsin-Madison University Communications - Madison,WI,USA
... of Wisconsin-Madison will host an Earth Day Teach-In on Saturday, April 22, to inform the public about the current and future impacts of global warming. ...


Global Warming Is A Moral Issue (http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=11645)
EV World - Papillion,Nebraska,USA
... The loss of hundreds if not thousands of species as habitats are totally changed with the three degrees of warming that will occur by 2040. ...


The perils of global warming (http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2006/apr/18/yehey/opinion/20060418opi5.html)
Manila Times - Philippines
A MENACE far more devastating than terrorism or any weapon of mass destruction is upon us: global warming. Glaciers are melting, sea ...


Global warming sparks a scramble for black gold under retreating ... (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1755765,00.html)
Guardian Unlimited - UK
But as global warming thaws the ocean's icy layer, oil giants, shipping companies and even the odd enterprising tourist operator are casting their eyes towards ...
See all stories on this topic (http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&hl=en&client=google&ncl=http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1755765,00.html)

Global warming science expert to speak (http://www.oregonnews.com/article/20060416/NEWS/104170025)
News-Review - Roseburg,OR,USA
Global warming expert and Oregon State University professor Jane Lubchenco will present the latest information on global warming and its effects on the ...


Climb the CN Tower and fight global warming (http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/April2006/17/c8715.html)
Canada NewsWire (press release) - Canada
The 1,776 step challenge takes place from 6:00 am to 11:00 am and this year money raised will help fight global warming - the biggest environmental threat to ...


Global warming: Are media creating undue panic? (http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/opinion/14359049.htm)
Charlotte Observer - Charlotte,NC,USA
... yawning gap between science and alarmism better illustrated these days than in the rancorous debate over the extent of human contribution to global warming. ...
See all stories on this topic (http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&hl=en&client=google&ncl=http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/opinion/14359049.htm)

Global warming fears (http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Canada/2006/04/17/1537348-sun.html)
Edmonton Sun - Alberta, Canada
By CP. MONTREAL -- About one-quarter of Canadians believe global warming will lead to the destruction of the planet, a new opinion poll suggests. ...
See all stories on this topic (http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&hl=en&client=google&ncl=http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Canada/2006/04/17/1537348-sun.html)

Media Darling on 'Global Warming' Assailed by Colleagues (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewFlash.asp?Page=/ThisHour/Archive/NTH20060417o.html)
CNSNews.com - Alexandria,VA,USA
... by the New York Times, "60 Minutes" and other media titans as a renowned scientist with unassailable credibility on the issue of "global warming" and a victim ...
An increasingly dim view of global warming (http://www.dailynews.com/entertainment/ci_3720669)
Los Angeles Daily News - Los Angeles,CA,USA
... We've all heard about global warming, which suggests that greenhouse gases have made the planet about a degree warmer than it was a century ago. ...

[Boomer Chick]

By Susan Jones
CNSNews.com Senior Editor
April 17, 2006
10:16 am




Media Darling on 'Global Warming' Assailed by Colleagues

(CNSNews.com) - NASA scientist James Hansen, profiled by the New York Times, "60 Minutes" and other media titans as a renowned scientist with unassailable credibility on the issue of "global warming" and a victim of White House censorship, is actually a loose cannon at NASA who lied about the alleged censorship, according to one of Hansen's former colleagues as well as a current co-worker. George Deutsch, a former NASA public relations employee who resigned his job in February, told Cybercast News Service that he was warned about Hansen shortly after joining the space agency. "The only thing I was ever told -- more so from civil servants and non political people -- is, 'You gotta watch that guy. He is a loose cannon; he is kind of crazy. He is difficult to work with; he is an alarmist; he exaggerates,'" Deutsch said. Full Story (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200604/SPE20060417a.html)



***

Hmmm. Character assassination or truth?

[Yaak]

I find the push for alternative energies the more noble of the two sides and whether the push is frought with false assumptions and scare tactics....it doesn't matter....what matters is the stimulation of adaptive technologies and accompanying economic independence from the choking oil/energy kings.

Hi Boomer,

I’ve been looking over the recent posts on this thread.

Please tell me the above quoted words are not yours. Yes, it does matter. It is a matter of integrity.

Lying, inaccuracies and crying “Wolf'“ turn people away, they turn people off. Since they are negative actions, they produce negative results and do nothing to further a cause.

[jayreynolds]

If you don't like what your government has in mind e.g. for Iran, it is no different in spirit from what Reynolds has in mind for us. He thinks that we are Iranians.

Already sections of the leadership of your country's military are in revolt.

Wayne, show us where I said your people were Iranians.
You can't, because I didn't ever say that.
Why lie, Wayne?
Are you so weak you have to make stuff up?

Secondly, retired military people are no longer leaders, just ordinary people.
Everybody knows the US military cannot revolt against itself.
Why lie about us, Wayne Hall?
Do you hate the success of Americans so much that you have to invent false claims about us?

[halva]

I wonder what Reynolds is saying.

[OBPelican]

You've written much truth in these lines which also tickle my humor response! *smiles!* Yes, to maintain that balance of humor, wit, and truth while we all choke into this 21st Century, "run out of ice cubes," drown, fry in the ozone, or be forced to live underground................. at least we can gripe about it and apologize on our collective gravestones! Problem might be, too, that mass graves might be the norm and therefore they'll be no time for eulogies or apologies!
Sick, ain't it? But somehow it all strikes me as funny this morning. Guess my overriding optimism still runs the show in my mind.
I had a dream last night that my hubby and I stayed in a downtown urban Chinese hotel that we had never heard of and ate the most delectable of dinners prepared with skill and artistry and totally unexpected and unknown to us before. It was like finding a treasure in an unexpected place. An old childhood girlfriend of mine joined us and the Asian women serving us and setting and clearing the tables were fun, happy, and gracious. They set the table up with flowers, cloth napkins and table cover and served the meal right in the hotel room. The food itself was other-worldly, unknown, but delectable..... beyond description. Our room was located right on the street where you could look out and see the people walking by. It was a strange and enchanting dream and if dreams are any indication of the future....we'll all do fine with the Asians in charge.
Whatever..... all politics is local.
The future is ours to build.Thanks for sharing your thoughts BC.

First, I pray your dreams come true, at this point in our history, anything is still possible.

But second, a caveat from my wife who was born in Nanking, never trust a Chinese leader regardless of their politics, Chiang and Mao were both murdering bastards. Only Sun Yat-sen appears to have withstood the test of time and history as still being a revered unifier in both China and Taiwan, but he was the last of his kind and died in 1925, actually very similar as a revolutionary overthrowing Imperial China like Washington overthrew Imperial Britain.

And since my wife got a much better grade in PoliSci 120A: International Relations at Cal than I did (I are an engineer and never had a chance to even finish reading the reading list itself), I believe her for that and many other reasons.

So keep your women's intuition and skepticism highly tuned. And always try to keep smiling.

[Boomer Chick]

Hi Boomer,

I’ve been looking over the recent posts on this thread.

Please tell me the above quoted words are not yours. Yes, it does matter. It is a matter of integrity.

Lying, inaccuracies and crying “Wolf'“ turn people away, they turn people off. Since they are negative actions, they produce negative results and do nothing to further a cause.

Hello, Yaak.

"[T]urn people away from what? [T]urn people off?" Turn them off from what? I have as yet to see "negative results" regarding articles and the various rhetoric regarding global warming or however the climate change debate has evolved.

Think about it.

WHAT have been the negative consequences of it? Various websites devoted to watching the climate? Various foundations with private donations watching the climate and discussing ways of adapting? The UK and Euro carbon sequestration plans and trading? School curriculums addressing it? Climate scientists studying it? TV specials and documentaries talking about it?

Come on.....use your mind and realize that no matter what the rhetoric, the gloom and doom at one end and the adaptation/economic stimulus on the other............it all serves to stimulate awareness, adaptation, business, oil independence, and resulting in a cleaner atmosphere.

If someone can list the "negatives" in the global warming or climate change inaccuracies, please list them.

Sorry Yaak, I cannot agree with you nor find any academic or sound reasoning in your approach to criticizing as somehow alarmingly dangerous, the CLIMATE-CHANGE-IS-REAL side of the debate.

As I also mentioned previously, the changes we see now could alter at a moment's notice in regard to volcanic activity.

My view, personally, is that the planet is in a flux period of climate change and that has been my position for quite awhile. Change itself may not warrant adaptation to alternative energies in your mind, but of course I couple my concept and observation with the notion of Peak Oil. There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting off of oil as our major source of transportation fuel....nothing at all.....and as I've often said before.....the alternatives will allow more freedom in customizing water transportation and refinement, food transportation, and agriculture, in the future so all the stimulus regarding alternative energy development is necessary for our very human survival on the planet.

If you haven't been able to see that yet, Yaak, I'm sorry you feel compelled to defend and maintain a "no change" ethic regarding energies and fuels.

It is a positive vision of the future and one of needed adaptation. I have presented all sides of the weather-change debate and the carbon/verses water debate and whether the earth as a whole has heated up due to man's emissions or more natural causes.....like I said....it doesn't matter the reasons why so much as the adaptation we seek in eliminating our man-made contributions to the oceans, soils, and atmosphere. In that elimination rests the development of clean, renewable fuels and energies.

And in the adaptation and innovation lies our future ability to feed and fuel a future healthy and habitable world.

[Boomer Chick]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts BC.

First, I pray your dreams come true, at this point in our history, anything is still possible.

But second, a caveat from my wife who was born in Nanking, never trust a Chinese leader regardless of their politics, Chiang and Mao were both murdering bastards. Only Sun Yat-sen appears to have withstood the test of time and history as still being a revered unifier in both China and Taiwan, but he was the last of his kind and died in 1925, actually very similar as a revolutionary overthrowing Imperial China like Washington overthrew Imperial Britain.

And since my wife got a much better grade in PoliSci 120A: International Relations at Cal than I did (I are an engineer and never had a chance to even finish reading the reading list itself), I believe her for that and many other reasons.

So keep your women's intuition and skepticism highly tuned. And always try to keep smiling.

It might just be that in the future there will not be any huge imperialistic nations, just corporations owning this and that along with regions and areas belonging to "the people." I see China and other Asian nations now as innovative, adaptive, and curious about the whole globe and therefore quite able and willing to be a part of every country on the world map. Chances are, with China's future innovations and economic development...they and other Asian peoples will play a large role in all arenas of our future world.

It might be rather narrow to think of the future in terms of Imperialistic countries and leaders. It might indeed be a far brighter and more equitable place than what we imagine at this point.

Dreams may or may not be truly intuitive. I wish I knew.

Love and peace,

BC

[OBPelican]

It might just be that in the future there will not be any huge imperialistic nations, just corporations owning this and that along with regions and areas belonging to "the people." I see China and other Asian nations now as innovative, adaptive, and curious about the whole globe and therefore quite able and willing to be a part of every country on the world map. Chances are, with China's future innovations and economic development...they and other Asian peoples will play a large role in all arenas of our future world.
It might be rather narrow to think of the future in terms of Imperialistic countries and leaders. It might indeed be a far brighter and more equitable place than what we imagine at this point.
Dreams may or may not be truly intuitive. I wish I knew.
Love and peace,
BCYou always make great points BC. We just can't hang labels on states as democratic, communist, whatever anymore and assume those are self defining terms from the cold war era at all. It appears that the Chinese "communism" in 2006 is not the communism of Mao at all, except that a large majority of Chinese are still, as always, in great poverty and marginalized, but the distribution of wealth is very possible to improve greatly within the next 50 years.

One thing I know beyond all doubt from decades of personal experience is that engineers living in Asia (Taiwan, China, India, Pakistan, etc.) that we compete with today are as smart and competent as any in America. I know this because I went to school with a lot of them, I participated on international engineering and scientific committees with a lot of them, and when your eyes are shut you frequently do not know the country they live in. One incredible fact is that since about the year 2000, the world of electrical engineering is a whole new world.

But I must respect the subject of this thread and state that "Climate Change" is still a major unknown in China, especially how China is going to deal with it's current states of out of control smog, desert sand intrusion into urban areas, crop failures and famines, floods, etc., but I do believe that they are trying harder than ever before, they have no choice but to try a lot harder.

An Interesting historical fact is that Japan created an economic revolution concurrent with their 1964 Tokyo Olympics, and maybe China has the same thing in mind for their 2008 Beijing Olympic games. One thing is for sure, both Chinas are dominating worldwide semiconductor production, and that's about as modern as you can get. I don't know what they are doing in molecular biology today, but I wouldn't be surprised at anything they are capable of accomplishing there either.

Actually, I hope they are accomplishing something in fusion generation, because the world needs discoveries with a sense of urgency like never before now that we are involved in the Middle East, and their needs are just as imperative as ours.

[Yaak]

Hello, Yaak.

"[T]urn people away from what? [T]urn people off?" Turn them off from what? I have as yet to see "negative results" regarding articles and the various rhetoric regarding global warming or however the climate change debate has evolved.

Think about it.

WHAT have been the negative consequences of it? Various websites devoted to watching the climate? Various foundations with private donations watching the climate and discussing ways of adapting? The UK and Euro carbon sequestration plans and trading? School curriculums addressing it? Climate scientists studying it? TV specials and documentaries talking about it?

Come on.....use your mind and realize that no matter what the rhetoric, the gloom and doom at one end and the adaptation/economic stimulus on the other............it all serves to stimulate awareness, adaptation, business, oil independence, and resulting in a cleaner atmosphere.

If someone can list the "negatives" in the global warming or climate change inaccuracies, please list them.

Sorry Yaak, I cannot agree with you nor find any academic or sound reasoning in your approach to criticizing as somehow alarmingly dangerous, the CLIMATE-CHANGE-IS-REAL side of the debate.

As I also mentioned previously, the changes we see now could alter at a moment's notice in regard to volcanic activity.

My view, personally, is that the planet is in a flux period of climate change and that has been my position for quite awhile. Change itself may not warrant adaptation to alternative energies in your mind, but of course I couple my concept and observation with the notion of Peak Oil. There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting off of oil as our major source of transportation fuel....nothing at all.....and as I've often said before.....the alternatives will allow more freedom in customizing water transportation and refinement, food transportation, and agriculture, in the future so all the stimulus regarding alternative energy development is necessary for our very human survival on the planet.

If you haven't been able to see that yet, Yaak, I'm sorry you feel compelled to defend and maintain a "no change" ethic regarding energies and fuels.

It is a positive vision of the future and one of needed adaptation. I have presented all sides of the weather-change debate and the carbon/verses water debate and whether the earth as a whole has heated up due to man's emissions or more natural causes.....like I said....it doesn't matter the reasons why so much as the adaptation we seek in eliminating our man-made contributions to the oceans, soils, and atmosphere. In that elimination rests the development of clean, renewable fuels and energies.

And in the adaptation and innovation lies our future ability to feed and fuel a future healthy and habitable world.

I appear not to have expressed myself very well, Boomer. I do believe you completely misunderstood me. My original inquiry was regarding whether or not I understood you.

Let's start over.

I will try to simplify.

When you stated, "….whether the push is frought with false assumptions and scare tactics....it doesn't matter...."
you gave me the impression that you believe it is unimportant when people lie or are deceptive as long as it helps them to accomplish their goal(s).

Dishonesty is wrong, immoral and generally leads to failure (unless you are a lawyer or politician:)).

[halva]

Finally neither Reynolds nor I can change this forum from the goofy kind of place it essentially is.

Will we ever learn why Arianna beat her retreat?

[Yaak]

Finally neither Reynolds nor I can change this forum from the goofy kind of place it essentially is.


Sure you can, Wayne. Just leave!:)

[halva]

What is Yaak saying, I wonder.

[Yaak]

What is Yaak saying, I wonder.

HA! Halva's mother wears combat boots.

[Boomer Chick]

You always make great points BC. We just can't hang labels on states as democratic, communist, whatever anymore and assume those are self defining terms from the cold war era at all. It appears that the Chinese "communism" in 2006 is not the communism of Mao at all, except that a large majority of Chinese are still, as always, in great poverty and marginalized, but the distribution of wealth is very possible to improve greatly within the next 50 years.

One thing I know beyond all doubt from decades of personal experience is that engineers living in Asia (Taiwan, China, India, Pakistan, etc.) that we compete with today are as smart and competent as any in America. I know this because I went to school with a lot of them, I participated on international engineering and scientific committees with a lot of them, and when your eyes are shut you frequently do not know the country they live in. One incredible fact is that since about the year 2000, the world of electrical engineering is a whole new world.

But I must respect the subject of this thread and state that "Climate Change" is still a major unknown in China, especially how China is going to deal with it's current states of out of control smog, desert sand intrusion into urban areas, crop failures and famines, floods, etc., but I do believe that they are trying harder than ever before, they have no choice but to try a lot harder.

An Interesting historical fact is that Japan created an economic revolution concurrent with their 1964 Tokyo Olympics, and maybe China has the same thing in mind for their 2008 Beijing Olympic games. One thing is for sure, both Chinas are dominating worldwide semiconductor production, and that's about as modern as you can get. I don't know what they are doing in molecular biology today, but I wouldn't be surprised at anything they are capable of accomplishing there either.

Actually, I hope they are accomplishing something in fusion generation, because the world needs discoveries with a sense of urgency like never before now that we are involved in the Middle East, and their needs are just as imperative as ours.

Ah ho ! LOL! Although the Chinese government shows little respect for human rights even at this time, it is the PEOPLE of whom I mainly speak. I find them, when educated, as quite intelligent, innovative, hard working...............

Climate change in China? What a fascinating subject! Let's see if I can find anything!

Whoa!

http://ncclcs.cma.gov.cn/Website/index.php?ChannelID=107

Ocean and climate studies, US Antarctic Program, 1998-1999 (http://www.nsf.gov/pubs/1998/nsf98155/chp7.htm) There will be a mutual sharing between the US and Chinese investigators of all ... We will study the effects of antarctic sea ice in the global climate ...
www.nsf.gov/pubs/1998/nsf98155/chp7.htm (http://www.nsf.gov/pubs/1998/nsf98155/chp7.htm)

Looks as though they were studying it way back in the nineties! (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=related:www.nsf.gov/pubs/1998/nsf98155/chp7.htm)
CSP Interim Report - China (http://www.gcrio.org/CSP/IR/IRchina.html) On the study of Climate Change on hydrology and water resources in China. In press. Xu Deying. 1994. A Preliminary Study of the Impact of Climate Change on ...
www.gcrio.org/CSP/IR/IRchina.html

Study shows effects of rapid urbanization in China (http://gtresearchnews.gatech.edu/newsrelease/china-climate.htm) "In this study, we focused on the climate effect of urbanization in China because it is a good case study at the maximum end of the UHI spectrum," says Zhou ...
gtresearchnews.gatech.edu/newsrelease/china-climate.htm

Studies on climate change problems and response measures in China (http://www.uneprisoe.org/CopenhagenConf/yeruqiu.htm) Wang Shaowu and Zhao Zongci, A Preliminary Study on the Prediction of Climate Change in China in the Future 50 Years, Applied Meteorology (to be Published). ...
www.uneprisoe.org/CopenhagenConf/yeruqiu.htm


European Institute for Asian Studies - Amartya Sen Lecture Series ... (http://www.eias.org/sen/2006/stern/photos.html) Sustainable Development, Climate Change and International Action by Sir Nicholas Stern Photo Gallery Page 1 > Page 2 ...
www.eias.org/sen/2006/stern/photos.html (http://www.eias.org/sen/2006/stern/photos.html)Air and Climate Programs in China | Program Descriptions by Region ... (http://www.epa.gov/oia/airandclimate/byregion/chinaair.html) EPA and SEPA have completed a feasibility study (English, Chinese) that ... For additional information on EPA's air and climate projects in China, contact: ...
www.epa.gov/oia/airandclimate/byregion/chinaair.html (http://www.epa.gov/oia/airandclimate/byregion/chinaair.html)

[Boomer Chick]

East-West Center: Research Projects: Energy, Climate and ... (http://www.eastwestcenter.org/res-pr-detail.asp?resproj_ID=123) Energy, Climate and Environmental Policy in China, the EU, Japan and the US ... Policy relevance: the study of this kind is of high value to the Chinese ...
www.eastwestcenter.org/res-pr-detail.asp?resproj_ID=123 (http://www.eastwestcenter.org/res-pr-detail.asp?resproj_ID=123)

[PDF] Climate Change Mitigation: Case Studies from China (http://www.pnl.gov/aisu/pubs/noregchn.pdf) File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:KU7CRWVLp8IJ:www.pnl.gov/aisu/pubs/noregchn.pdf+Chinese+climate+studies&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=16)
energy conservation mechanisms into China. Many studies and analyses of climate change have also been carried out by Chinese. institutions or in cooperation ...
www.pnl.gov/aisu/pubs/noregchn.pdf



European Institute for Asian Studies - Amartya Sen Lecture Series ... (http://www.eias.org/sen/2006/feedback.html) Sustainable Development, Climate Change and International Action by Sir Nicholas Stern 18:00 hrs Thursday March 16, 2006 ...
www.eias.org/sen/2006/feedback.html (http://www.eias.org/sen/2006/feedback.html)


European Institute for Asian Studies - Amartya Sen Lecture Series ... (http://www.eias.org/sen/2006/stern/stern.html) Sustainable Development, Climate Change and International Action ... Sir Nicholas Stern leads a major review of the Economics of Climate Change. ...
www.eias.org/sen/2006/stern/stern.html

Use of Radiosonde Temperature Data in Climate Studies (http://ams.allenpress.com/amsonline/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1175%2F1520-0442(1998)011%3C1002:UORTDI%3E2.0.CO%3B2) ... evaluated concerning potential use of their temperature data for climate studies. The VIZ; Space Data Corp.; Chinese GZZ; Japanese RS2-80; Russian RKZ, ...
ams.allenpress.com/.../?request=get-abstract& doi=10.1175%2F1520-0442(1998)011%3C1002:UORTDI%3E2.0.CO%3B2

Recent Progress in the Joint Agreements on "Global and Regional ... (http://ams.allenpress.com/amsonline/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1175%2F1520-0477(2000)081%3C0491:RPITJA%3E2.3.CO%3B2) Recent Progress in the Joint Agreements on "Global and Regional Climate Change" Studies between the United States and the People's Republic of China ...
ams.allenpress.com/.../?request=get-abstract& doi=10.1175%2F1520-0477(2000)081%3C0491:RPITJA%3E2.3.CO%3B2

US Antarctic Program, 2000-2001 -- Ocean and Climate Studies (http://www.nsf.gov/od/opp/antarct/treaty/projsum01/html/oceanclim.html) 2000-2001 ocean and climate studies projects, US Anatarctic Program. ... All samples and data will be shared between the US and Chinese investigators, ...
www.nsf.gov/od/opp/antarct/ treaty/projsum01/html/oceanclim.html

Earthscan - The World's Leading Publisher on Environmentally ... (http://www.earthscan.co.uk/default.asp?sp=332159698599342415282&v=1) Climate & Energy | Natural Resource Management | Cities & Built Environment | Business & Economics ... China’s renewables law - Published in REW ...
www.earthscan.co.uk/default. asp?sp=332159698599342415282&v=1

[PDF] Response for Climate Change: Perspective of China (http://developmentfirst.org/Studies/ChinaCountryStudy.pdf) File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
The Development and Climate. Country Study: China. Kejun JIANG, Zhou Dadajie,di. Energy Research Institute, China. B-1518, Jia No.11, Muxidibeili, ...
developmentfirst.org/Studies/ChinaCountryStudy.pdf

PDF] Invitation for Participation Climate Change Mitigation and ... (http://www.iwep.org.cn/english/meeting/international%20workshop%20on%20climate%20change%2 0mitig.pdf) File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:GgFqZQGoZ-IJ:www.iwep.org.cn/english/meeting/international%2520workshop%2520on%2520climate%2520 change%2520mitig.pdf+Chinese+climate+studies&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=28)
studies on the options and possible economic impacts on the Chinese economy, ... of climate change mitigation. It would be of great help to the Chinese ...
www.iwep.org.cn/english/meeting/ international%20workshop%20on%20climate%20change%2 0mitig.pdf


Impacts of Climate Change on Chinese Agriculture (http://www.ccchina.gov.cn/english/source/ea/ea2002121301.htm) To undertake detailed case studies of the impacts of climate change on agriculture, for selected regions (egN China & NW China) that consider the ...
www.ccchina.gov.cn/english/source/ea/ea2002121301.htm (http://www.ccchina.gov.cn/english/source/ea/ea2002121301.htm)


***

OK....this is a start on determining whether China concerns itself with climate studies and related pollution problems.

PEACE,

BC

[Boomer Chick]

ENVIRONMENT -- HEALTH ORGANIZATIONS REJECT EPA'S LAX AIR QUALITY RULES: The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is updating air-quality rules for both coarse and fine particulate matter. "Fine particulates" -- dust, dirt, soot, smoke, and liquid droplet particles found in the air -- are the "nation's deadliest pollutant (http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?key=109540872&url_num=49&url=http://www.thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHill/Business/041906_epa.html)," according to the American Lung Association. Exposure to fine particulates is tied to premature death, lung disease, asthma attacks, heart attacks (http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?key=109540872&url_num=50&url=http://www.epa.gov/pmdesignations/faq.htm%230), and other health effects. Business associations are urging the EPA to reject stricter regulations, while environmental groups are criticizing the administration's attempts to provide exemptions for agriculture and mining sources of particulate matter (http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?key=109540872&url_num=51&url=http://www.thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHill/Business/041906_epa.html). But one important group that was silent last time the EPA updated the air quality rules in 1997 is now weighing in: the American Medical Association (AMA). Clean Air Watch notes that a number of AMA lobbyists are close to the Bush administration (http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?key=109540872&url_num=52&url=http://blogforcleanair.blogspot.com/2006/04/ama-pans-bush-soot-plan.html). But the physicians' organization has spoken out against the EPA, calling particulates a "national public-health problem (http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?key=109540872&url_num=53&url=http://www.thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHill/Business/041906_epa.html)" and urging the agency "to adopt tougher standards than proposed."

****
35%: President Bush's approval rating, which "slipped for the third consecutive month and remains near the lowest mark of his presidency (http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?key=109540872&url_num=66&url=http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB114537392626128763-DWLEIOBO0oYrbZxYVO0OLVi1M_A_20070418.html?mod=blog s), according to a new Harris Interactive poll."

***
And finally: 欢迎访问星巴克中国网站 (Or, if you prefer, "Welcome to Starbucks (http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?key=109540872&url_num=74&url=http://starbucks.cn/)."): "If I were not serving in this office, I would certainly prefer to go into one of the coffee shops run by Starbucks (http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?key=109540872&url_num=75&url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060419/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_china_usa_starbucks)," said Chinese President Hu Jintao yesterday during his visit in Seattle.

[Boomer Chick]

I appear not to have expressed myself very well, Boomer. I do believe you completely misunderstood me. My original inquiry was regarding whether or not I understood you.

Let's start over.

I will try to simplify.

When you stated, "….whether the push is frought with false assumptions and scare tactics....it doesn't matter...."
you gave me the impression that you believe it is unimportant when people lie or are deceptive as long as it helps them to accomplish their goal(s).

Dishonesty is wrong, immoral and generally leads to failure (unless you are a lawyer or politician:)).

You will try to "simplify" as if I could not comprehend your complicated and profound utterance? ??? Please. (spitting out my coffee!)

This is a climate change thread. The sources we use are multinational, often government-funded, and for the most part, peer-reviewed and scientific. I asked you for examples regarding your statement and you ignored me. I find your attitude not only stubborn, but unable to respond to my questions, my logic, nor my complete rationale for stating what I did. You simply ignored my response to you.

My attitude toward articles discussing CLIMATE CHANGE remains exactly what I said and exactly what I meant. The outcome was never negative regarding the world-wide debate on CLIMATE CHANGE and I challenged you on your use of your words and you did not defend yourself. Again, you ignored me.

You cannot prove your initial response and opinion and you have as yet to prove that any exagerrations or "scare mongering" is based in actual lies. If a non-scientific entity proclaims that climate change will be the number one challenge of all nations in the near future...........is that a lie? Is that a falsehood? Is that a known misleading statement? NO. It is merely a projection into the future. (THINK.....projection into the future based on trends, based on imagination, based on fluff, based on science, based on..........whatever.) The internet and even scientific publications are full of them. Crystal balling as in meteorologic climate prediction, as in climate modelling is all based on the desire to know the future and prepare for it. If people reading the net and reading the publications cannot tell the difference between human trend analysis as in Toffler's "Future Shock" and other genres of scientific fiction as opposed to actual computer-based modelling and scientific projections into the future (not regarded as solely reliable either) regarding climate, then they're just prone to imaginative impressionsm, aren't they?

Need I remind you that even the UN (United Nations) and the Pentagon issued projective statements in this vein as well? (Look it up.)

You have failed, Yaak, to defend your original response to me and you continue to fail as well. As I said, all projections, all emotionalism from doom and gloom to projects limitiing GHG's................... all serve to clean up our planetary biosphere. You have a problem with that?

Your original response:
Lying, inaccuracies and crying “Wolf'“ turn people away, they turn people off. Since they are negative actions, they produce negative results and do nothing to further a cause.

I asked you to answer to these assumptions and you did not. It is not a matter of my interpretation, it is a matter of your interpretation. You failed to clarify and basically you claim that some authors or entities are "lying" and I asked you to list the "negative results". You take no responsibility for your inserted commentary.

You hold two assumptions:

1. Some climate change scientists lie. Who? Why?

2. Some people purposefully "cry wolf." Who? Why?

Because you assume that your assumptions are correct in your assessment of certain climate change articles, you assume I condone "lies." I do not see projections into the future as lies. Period. Projections cannot be defined as true or false. Do you get that, mister obtuse? Gloom and doom projections are part of the human reality of future prediction and that is just a reality that in itself is harmless and always has been. If SCIENTISTS, lie, however, and purposefully change data, now that is a travesty. I have not seen that, yet, have you?

We have read the IPCC reports, the NOAA and NASA reports, the various gov.-funded university reports and studies, the satellite information like CALIPSO (21st launching), AURA......the Pentagon, the UN, Euro scientists, and a continuing host and list of meteorologists, climatologists, and geo-engineers around the world and in our nation and somehow you assume a major portion of these folk are LYING? SCREWING with facts and statistics? Practicing unsound science?

On this thread I find your commentary inappropriate and odd.

As I do not condone lying in politics as the Bush admiistration has repeatedly demonstrated I have never condoned lying and falsehoods in the realm of climate studies or science.

Your commentary toward me was unnecessary and a very low form of communication. You know darn well I have never condoned lying as a form of scientific data.

I will chalk this up to a Neanderthal moment in your brain and a desperate attempt to gain attention. Don't bother responding, Yaak, it will only serve to entrench your ego and defend it due to your mistake.

The ends never justify the means, but the scale of such must be taken into consideration. A few panicky environmentalists projecting into the future does not a murdering, country-invading, lying, war-mongering, fascist, bomb-dropping, oil-burning, polluting, maiming, group of sinister terrorists MAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, I compared the Bush administration to some harmless articles on the net and in various publications related to climate change which is often termed "global warming."

Jay and I have intellectual discussions on the scientific debate regarding this period of change in our climate. This is an open place regardless of how halva interpets it and you are free to post any article, any scientist, or any piece that strikes you as fraudulent or based on inaccurate science. But don't come on this board and personally attack me as though I need some kind of moral reprimand.

I hope I made myself clear.

BC

[OBPelican]

Ah ho ! LOL! Although the Chinese government shows little respect for human rights even at this time, it is the PEOPLE of whom I mainly speak. I find them, when educated, as quite intelligent, innovative, hard working...............
Climate change in China? What a fascinating subject! Let's see if I can find anything!
Whoa!

http://ncclcs.cma.gov.cn/Website/index.php?ChannelID=107
--------------------As usual you are right BC, especially the Human Rights oppression by their leaders.

Bush considers more and more countries with leaders like China to be his "best friends" all the time. Afghanistan's culture of death to Christians is a most recent case in point, and Bush enabled that to continue after we "freed" Afghanistan and made them a "Democracy".

So as long as Washington DC sells out Human Rights for blood money profits, there is no hope. And that's not even including the Human Rights atrocities by the world's two largest religions, like slaughtering children of other sects, pedophilia, etc.

As long as we let our religious leaders destroy children with impunity, there is no hope for Human Rights to become a top priority of our political leaders. Even American Rights are threatened today more than ever before since the Revolutionary War.

As for the people of the world, I think it is human nature to want to raise a healthy, happy family for almost everyone on earth. But we keep picking the wrong leaders who we allow to keep creating Hell On Earth, which also gets us back to "Climate Change".

Thanks for the reading assignment, I keep telling myself to take a speed reading course, but it takes so long for me to read all the stuff I have to master now, I don't have time enough to take a speed reading course.

[OBPelican]

P.S. - National Geographic's latest May issue has a very interesting summary of global warming conventional wisdom in a "SCIENCE" column by Joel Achenbach, which sorts out "When Science and Politics Clash", and the best summary distinction is:Science deals with tentative conclusions, and politics with absolutes. Science is invariably an enterprise built on uncertainty, and people who make policy decisions see uncertainty as a reason to do nothing at all (or to demand more studies). So, the reality is that we can only expect "more studies" until something(s) really go so badly wrong that we reach the Ah Shit!, We Blew It! scientific level of certainty at last where someone gets a Nobel Prize after decades of ridicule by his idiot colleagues at about the same time that the human race dies and evolution starts all over with the next set of things on earth, or not.

As long as religion and science continue to fail Humanity, politics shall rule and it's everyone for themselves. And the ultimate fate of Humanity will depend entirely on how well the United Nations does it's job.

[halva]

P.S. - National Geographic's latest May issue has a very interesting summary of global warming conventional wisdom in a "SCIENCE" column by Joel Achenbach, which sorts out "When Science and Politics Clash", and the best summary distinction is:So, the reality is that we can only expect "more studies" until something(s) really go so badly wrong that we reach the Ah Shit!, We Blew It! scientific level of certainty at last where someone gets a Nobel Prize after decades of ridicule by his idiot colleagues at about the same time that the human race dies and evolution starts all over with the next set of things on earth, or not.

As long as religion and science continue to fail Humanity, politics shall rule and it's everyone for themselves. And the ultimate fate of Humanity will depend entirely on how well the United Nations does it's job.

It is for this reason among others that some of us are arguing that activists on climate change must stop pretending that massive-scale global operations corresponding in appearance to what has been recommended in American Academy of Sciences and IPCC studies of climate change as possible techniques for CLIMATE CHANGE MITIGATION are not already under way (for at least eight or nine years now). The credibility of climate change sceptics is contingent on denial that these operations are occurring. Is it conceivable that such vast-scale activity should be initiated to deal with a non-existent or non-recognized problem?

Climate change activists and scientists presumably fall into line with the denial because the operations in question have not been legalized (i.e. are illegal), meaning that whoever is responsible for them could be charged with crime. This of course leaves open magnificent opportunities for blackmail, including blackmail by "climate change sceptics". Our friend Reynolds himself has said that if he believed these "chemtrails" operations were actually happening he would be the first to press for prosecution of whoever is engaged in them.

Are you beginning to understand the modalities of the game that is being played?

Climate change activists are caught in a double bind: they must fall into line with the denial if the 'sceptics" are not to give them even more trouble than they are already doing.

But the sceptics themselves could be put in the bind if climate change activists insisted on public debate of the question of whether CLIMATE CHANGE MITIGATION SHOULD BE LEGALIZED OR BANNED.

If "sceptics" are FORCED to take a position on that, they immediately lose their ability to threaten and blackmail. If they say clmate change mitigation should be legalized they lose the ability to claim that climate change is not a problem. If they say climate change mitigation should be banned they can be invited to prove that it is not already occurring.

The starting point for engagement with this issue is insistence that the high-visibility public debate on climate change is mostly a DIVERSION from what should be a debate on CLIMATE CHANGE MITIGATION. You yourself have made the point that the ongoing climate change debate in its present form is a joke.

But of course to get serious about issues like this means really being SERIOUS. The first prerequisite is to confront and defeat terrorists such as Reynolds. Which does not necessarily mean playing the game the way he wants to play it.

Already Reynolds and his ilk would not have a platform in public discussions where climate change activists are setting the terms for debate. This de facto impediment to the sceptics' "right of free speech" has to be applied more consciously and systematically.

The European Union does not recognize the right of free speech to "holocaust deniers". This sets a precedent which can be extended to "climate change deniers", no? And then Americans can start adopting some of these European habits.

[halva]

A possible alternative, of course, would be to do the opposite and abolish the ban, and stigma, on both kinds of free speech.

[jayreynolds]

It is for this reason among others that some of us are arguing that activists on climate change must stop pretending that massive-scale global operations corresponding in appearance to what has been recommended in American Academy of Sciences and IPCC studies of climate change as possible techniques for CLIMATE CHANGE MITIGATION[/u] are not already under way (for at least eight or nine years now). The credibility of climate change sceptics is contingent on denial that these operations are occurring. Is it conceivable that such vast-scale activity should be initiated to deal with a non-existent or non-recognized problem?

Sorry, Wayne. Even your best buddy 'footsoldier', disagrees with your "'Chemtrails' are geoengineering" hoax.
Here is what she said:
Dr. Cornell's point here is that 'laying jet contrails' (in the upper troposphere) as a methodology to achieve a net planetary cooling effect simply will not work as it has now been conclusively determined that aviation contrails and resulting persistent contrail cirrus actually exert a net WARMING effect on the atmosphere.

Note that she is not referencing the loading of the STRATOSPHERE with particulate emissions, which is an ENTIRELY different matter.

One thing I can say here, and I think it's important to keep this in mind, is that what we are seeing is taking place in the upper troposphere - NOT in the stratosphere where the by now familiar-to-us-all Tellerian aerosol climate mitigation proposals are specifically designed to be deployed.


Drives you crazy, I know, Wayne, but it's true. The rest of the world all knows, but you have repeated the lie so long you can't stop now, can you?

Climate change activists and scientists presumably fall into line with the denial because the operations in question have not been legalized (i.e. are illegal), meaning that whoever is responsible for them could be charged with crime. This of course leaves open magnificent opportunities for blackmail, including blackmail by "climate change sceptics". Our friend Reynolds himself has said that if he believed these "chemtrails" operations were actually happening he would be the first to press for prosecution of whoever is engaged in them.

Are you beginning to understand the modalities of the game that is being played?

Climate change activists are caught in a double bind: they must fall into line with the denial if the 'sceptics" are not to give them even more trouble than they are already doing.

Wayne, nobody must "FALL INTO LINE" about anything. You are living proof that they don't. You are just as free to tell lies as I am to tell the truth.

How can you blackmail someone who isn't guilty?

It cannot be done, buddy.
No matter how much rhetoric you put in front of it, this failed premise of yours is too ridiculous for any sane person to buy into it.

No wonder you are frusterated, old bean.

But the sceptics themselves could be put in the bind if climate change activists insisted on public debate of the question of whether CLIMATE CHANGE MITIGATION SHOULD BE LEGALIZED OR BANNED.

If "sceptics" are FORCED to take a position on that, they immediately lose their ability to threaten and blackmail. If they say clmate change mitigation should be legalized they lose the ability to claim that climate change is not a problem. If they say climate change mitigation should be banned they can be invited to prove that it is not already occurring.

Wayne, I've taken a position, and it didn't hurt me at all. The big problem is that no one actually knows if it would work, so why worry to ban it? secondly, it isn't up to anyone but yourself to prove your proposition that it "is already occurring".

That said, I've already disproved the whole 'geoengineering is taking place' premise since it was easy enough to do. Until you disprove my contentions, you'll have to eat crow.

Want to have a go?
Here it is:
http://www.debatebothsides.com/showthread.php?t=35721&page=1

[halva]

I have Reynolds ignore-listed and so am not debating with him. Therefore it is up to others if there is to be input into this thread.

Others are free to argue with him, or argue with me on the basis of what he says, if they wish.

[Boomer Chick]

Sorry, Wayne. Even your best buddy 'footsoldier', disagrees with your "'Chemtrails' are geoengineering" hoax.
Here is what she said:


Drives you crazy, I know, Wayne, but it's true. The rest of the world all knows, but you have repeated the lie so long you can't stop now, can you?



Wayne, nobody must "FALL INTO LINE" about anything. You are living proof that they don't. You are just as free to tell lies as I am to tell the truth.

How can you blackmail someone who isn't guilty?

It cannot be done, buddy.
No matter how much rhetoric you put in front of it, this failed premise of yours is too ridiculous for any sane person to buy into it.

No wonder you are frusterated, old bean.



Wayne, I've taken a position, and it didn't hurt me at all. The big problem is that no one actually knows if it would work, so why worry to ban it? secondly, it isn't up to anyone but yourself to prove your proposition that it "is already occurring".

That said, I've already disproved the whole 'geoengineering is taking place' premise since it was easy enough to do. Until you disprove my contentions, you'll have to eat crow.

Want to have a go?
Here it is:
http://www.debatebothsides.com/showthread.php?t=35721&page=1

As I've always said, Wayne, you have always been and still are capable of proving your thesis that it is "already occurring." So far you haven't been able to prove it. I have tried and failed myself. Others have tried and failed. You would think on some website on some scientific forum either in the US or in Europe that the projects would be addressed and the accompanying scientific papers and studies discussed. But there is NOTHING, NOTHING that points to your thesis as real.

Yes, we can tell that often contrails linger and create cirrus, but this isn't enough evidence and never was. One must PROVE his or her thesis; one must PROVE that indeed a project is ongoing and taking place. As far as weather manipulation, do you honestly think that with that ability the PTB would allow droughts in the US? Floods? Tornados? The universities connected to weather projects, the various military arms involved, the EPA, the DOE, NASA, NOAA, Woods Hole, and a myriad of international organizations and scientists could not POSSIBLY conspire on such a VAST project without commentary, evidence, and a SUPPORTING SCIENTIFIC RATIONALE. If we can manipulate the weather why aren't various countries including ours using this technology for the benefit of agriculture? It simply has not developed to the point that armchair amateurs assume.

As far as local military field cloud dispersion, hole punching, and cloud creation experiments, I have found evidence on military sites to support that. But a gigantic Teller-like project is simply not in existence .....nothing to support it when examining cloud cover, cloud behavior, and planetary cloud maps. Sorry.....ain't happening.

I still look askance at Scott Stevens as well. Even his so-called proof lacks validity.

I remain open, however, for you and others and those "on the trail" to prove their suspicians and theories RIGHT. So far........... it hasn't happened.

And, yes, Wayne, you spout rhetoric and that's about it.

BTW, you do have a great writing skill, but you allow ASSUMPTION to guide you.

Sincerely,

BC

[OBPelican]

A possible alternative, of course, would be to do the opposite and abolish the ban, and stigma, on both kinds of free speech.You bring up a most excellent point halva, the suppression of free speech is most certainly a root cause of all Humanities problems today, whether political, religious, scientific, social or economic.

When people are not free, and many cannot recognize that we are not as free in America today as the Framers of our Constitution intended, or even as free as Christ intended for that matter.

The truth is that American scientists are most certainly prohibited by their federal welfare state from ever achieving the state of freedom of science that the discoverers of quantum mechanics enjoyed, before the Nazis took over that is, which is another interesting history lesson.

Citizens of Greece most certainly have a much better understanding of what America is undergoing today, you've most certainly "been there, done that," and you can see exactly where we are headed.

[Boomer Chick]

Thanks, OB, for your commentary. You speak the truth and quite eloquently at that. Of course you need not read all the links I post for you. They only serve to exemplify to you that at least a couple of Chinese science organizations profess interest in climate studies and partner with Euro and American scientists on awareness and scientific studies related to climate. They realize, of course, that climate affects their agriculture of which they highly value. They realize as well, that their pollution contributes to the world's pollution and if there is money to be made and factories to be built with pollution guards and new clean energy techology to develop, I wouldn't doubt they would be motivated to be leaders in the clean energy and clean environment movement if there's money to be made.


And of course human rights remain a huge issue in our country as well.

peace............bc

[halva]

OBP I have both Reynolds and Boomer Chick ignore-listed. If you think that either of them is saying anything that should be brought to my attention please mention it.

I have resorted to this ignore-listing strategy for the simple reason that I don't wish to waste my time arguing with people who I judge to be either insincere or dupes of the insincere (i.e. engaging in debate on a basis which I reject)..

If I make mistakes as a result of economising in this way in my use of my time I hope that well-disposed and impartial newcomers such as yourself can bring to my attention any important arguments (e.g. in the postings of Reynolds and BC) that I may be overlooking.

[Boomer Chick]

Yawn=halva


Google Alert for: global warming




British flowers affected by global warming (http://science.monstersandcritics.com/news/article_1157968.php/British_flowers_affected_by_global_warming)
Monsters and Critics.com - Glasgow,UK
LONDON, England (UPI) -- A survey by the Botanical Society of the British Isles suggests global warming is affecting the numbers and range of Britain`s wild ...
See all stories on this topic (http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&hl=en&client=google&ncl=http://science.monstersandcritics.com/news/article_1157968.php/British_flowers_affected_by_global_warming)

International Earth Day 2006: Stop Global Warming! (http://www.thenewstoday.info/2006/04/24/international.earth.day.2006.stop.global.warning.h tml)
News Today Online - Iloilo City,Iloilo,Philippines
... This year, we have “STOP GLOBAL WARMING" as the theme. It denotes issues concerning global warming. What is global warming by the way? ...
See all stories on this topic (http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&hl=en&client=google&ncl=http://www.thenewstoday.info/2006/04/24/international.earth.day.2006.stop.global.warning.h tml)

Global warming expert to speak at UCSC on Wednesday, May 10 (http://www.ucsc.edu/news_events/press_releases/text.asp?pid=859)
UC Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz,CA,USA
... has been central to establishing the growing human influence on climate and, as a result, has been the target of criticism from skeptics of global warming. ...


Global warming consensus (http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/4/24/125821/375)
Grist Magazine - Seattle,WA,USA
I'm seeing more and more stories like this Bloomberg piece, about the growing consensus around global warming -- and by "growing consensus," I mean ...


Scientists, Politicians Embrace Deceit Over Global Warming (http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?page=article&id=2159)
theTrumpet.com - Edmond,OK,USA
At the same time, a host of scientists and politicians on the other side of the spectrum vehemently argue that the link between global warming and its supposed ...


MTV US’ new campaign against global warming seeks to ‘Break ... (http://www.indiantelevision.com/mam/headlines/y2k6/apr/aprmam78.htm)
Indiantelevision.com - Andheri,Mumbai,India
... long campaign to engage, educate and empower young people to take simple, daily actions that can have a measurable impact in the fight against global warming. ...


Global warming an issue for US, world (http://www.lsureveille.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2006/04/24/444c52358ed1f)
LSU The Reveille - Baton Rouge,Louisiana,USA
... A recent issue of TIME featured a special report on global warming, which, if you can forgive the pun, seems to be this year’s hot topic. ...


Global Warming: The Times' Two Views Of Beauty (http://pat-cleary.redstate.com/story/2006/4/23/223932/214)
RedState - Mclean,VA,USA
Interesting article in Sunday's NY Times by Andrew Revkin, ostensibly looking at both sides of the global warming debate but in the end, not really. ...


Face Off: Global Warming (http://www.thepenn.org/vnews/display.v/ART/2006/04/24/444d1c5880e37)
Indiana University The Penn Online - PA, United States
It’s doubtful there’sa single American citizen who has not, in some facet, heard of global warming. ... Global warming is taking place. ...
FEATURE - Global Warming Hits Canada's Remotest Arctic Lands (http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/36098/story.htm)
Planet Ark - New York,NY,USA
... BAY, Nunavut - Even in one of the remotest, coldest and most inhospitable parts of Canada's High Arctic, you cannot escape the signs of global warming. ...


Google Alert for: global warming





New Gallup Poll Finds 70% of Americans Believe Global Warming Is A ... (http://www.citydebate.com/florida/miamibeach/template.php?url=0104230610.htm)
City Debate - Miami,FL,USA
do something about it? A recent Gallup Poll finds that 70% of Americans now believe the threat of global warming is real. While ...


Global warming's PR problem (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/23/news/warm.php)
International Herald Tribune - France
... Or has global warming been spun into an "alarmist gale," as Richard Lindzen, a climatologist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology wrote in a recent ...


Global Warming And The Future of Wine (http://www.luxist.com/2006/04/23/global-warming-and-the-future-of-wine/)
Luxist - Santa Monica,CA,USA
One thing I hadn't seen discussed until I read this Observer article is the effect of global warming on wine. A recent conference ...


Global Warming Real for Two-Thirds of Americans (http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/11653)
Angus Reid Global Scan - Vancouver,BC,Canada
... completely or probably true. The term global warming refers to an increase of the Earth’s average temperature. Some theories say that ...
See all stories on this topic (http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&hl=en&client=google&ncl=http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/11653)

Not every scientific theory as hot as global warming (http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060423/COLUMNISTS07/604230349/1006/NEWS01)
Poughkeepsie Journal - Poughkeepsie,NY,USA
... "As you follow the global warming story, it's important to remember," Revkin said, "that the Nuclear Winter story stayed in the press — for about a year.". ...


University panel gives global warming warning at weekend ... (http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp?S=4805944&nav=9qrx)
KESQ - Palm Desert,CA,USA
BERKELEY, Calif. Global warming could cause increasingly unpredictable weather patterns and make sea levels rise dramatically in the coming years. ...
See all stories on this topic (http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&hl=en&client=google&ncl=http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp%3FS%3D4805944%26nav%3D9qrx)

Spectacular orchids double due to global warming (http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article359768.ece)
Independent - London,England,UK
... the icefields and glaciers of the Arctic, visited in a blaze of publicity last week by the Tory leader David Cameron, that the signs of global warming can be ...


Global warming a real threat to all living things (http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=474293&category=OPINION&newsdate=4/23/2006)
Albany Times Union - Albany,NY,USA
... In fact, due to global warming, spring across the Northern Hemisphere arrives a week or more earlier than it did 30 years ago, a phenomenon starting to be ...


Global warming hitting home -- and the future looks warmer yet (http://www.mlive.com/news/muchronicle/index.ssf?/base/news-9/1145787337126130.xml&coll=8)
Muskegon Chronicle - Muskegon,MI,USA
... Global warming is changing Michigan's environment and the plants, animals and insects it supports. Less ice cover on lakes in the ...


Teens tackle global warming (http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/7656485p-7568038c.html)
Anchorage Daily News - Anchorage,AK,USA
Six Alaska teenagers will descend on the nation's capital this week with a message to Congress: Do something to combat the effects of global warming in the ...
A fate worse than global warming? (http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060423/OPINION04/104230184/-1/OPINION02)
Nashua Telegraph (subscription) - Nashua,NH,USA
While we temporize about global warming – some would say dither – its long-term dangers may be overtaken by a related, but more acute, crisis: The ...

***

BC

[halva]

Footsoldier's theoretical error, which she may have inherited from Sore Throat, is not to have completely shaken off the hope that a debate on Climate Change may be able to substitute for a debate on climate modification.

[foot_soldier]

Footsoldier's theoretical error, which she may have inherited from Sore Throat, is not to have completely shaken off the hope that a debate on Climate Change may be able to substitute for a debate on climate modification.
I've never advocated the substituting of one "debate" for the other.

In fact, what I've suggested all along is that both issues be looked at in tandem as I (still) think they are intimately related.