Normal Contrails: Some Sanity

[halva]

I'm tired of this thread's morphing into a damned soap opera. It was intended to be an informational thread.

If you disagree with the thought process involved here, that is your privilege.

As for "what is the level of engagement that is going on" in this forum, I suppose I'm trying to be civil by not completely ignoring your relentless badgering and at least extending to you the courtesy of a response.

Since I really don't have the time to waste on what I now see as an exercise in futility, I'm simply not going to respond to you any further.

If I see fit to update this thread with an occasional informational post I will do it. If you want to continue to act as if that is a personal affront there's nothing I can do about it.

Good Night.

Good night (good morning) Footsoldier. I will continue responding to your postings here - if you continue them,- from the viewpoint of what I am trying to do by staying here, Something I am willing to explain if you want an explanation.

[foot_soldier]

February 4, 2007

FAA warns of gridlock in skies
Seeks upgrade in air traffic systems
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/02/04/faa_warns_of_gridlock_in_skies/

WASHINGTON -- Federal aviation officials expect to begin introducing a proposal tomorrow to finance a new air traffic control system that they say will be needed to keep pace with increasing air travel over the next two decades.

Without a new system, officials say, passengers would face delays that would be far greater than last year's snarls.

"In the long term, we could see real gridlock," said Federal Aviation Administrator Marion Blakey.

Few people in the aviation industry dispute Blakey's assessment of future air traffic congestion, a problem that officials hope to fix by switching from a radar network to one that relies on satellites.

However, a debate is unfolding over how to finance the next-generation network, which could cost $69 billion to $76 billion, according to the Congressional Research Service.

The Federal Aviation Administration and other government agencies want the system completed by 2025. They have not said how much it would cost.

The FAA would use its trust fund, which accumulates aviation-related taxes, to pay for the new system. The fund's balance has dropped to $1.8 billion, however, the lowest in a decade, officials said.

The officials say they must change how they collect money for the fund. Its largest source of funding -- taxes paid on airline tickets -- is not keeping pace with costs, they say.

The officials cite several reasons for the shortfall, but attribute it mostly to the growth of low-cost carriers. Those airlines charge less for flights, reducing tax revenue. Officials also note that airlines are using more small jets, adding to the workload of controllers.

Officials expect increased use of corporate aircraft and small private planes, known as very light jets, that are just hitting the market. Users of corporate jets and other private aircraft pay fuel taxes.

Blakey has hinted that the agency is considering a plan more in line with what airlines have advocated for years: replacing the ticket tax with user fees.

Airlines want the FAA to charge fees for most planes, including private jets, that use controlled airspace.

Owners of jets and small planes are lobbying against a change in the funding structure, saying it would unfairly hurt their businesses and aviation generally. They say the FAA has exaggerated its budget problems and has not explained how much the new system would cost.

Parts of the FAA proposal would be included in the agency's budget, which is to be submitted to Congress tomorrow.

More details are to emerge after the agency's reauthorization proposal is made public in the next few weeks.

The planned air traffic system would be vastly different than today's network, which dates to the 1960s and relies on radar and air-traffic controllers to direct pilots. Controllers must maintain substantial distances between planes and often move aircraft along slower, indirect routes because of the imprecision of radar data.

[foot_soldier]

Update Holland (through February 7, 2007):
http://www.contrails.nl/contrails-2007-1/magicgallery/7overflow.htm

[foot_soldier]

February 11, 2007
The Roar Above: Remapping the Skies
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/11/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/11Rcover.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

HERE come the planes.

Nearly everywhere you look in the Northeast, there are signs of increasing air traffic. Even in remote rural areas, 100 miles from a major New York airport, the thunder of jets routinely fills the air.

In Woodstock, N.Y., more than two hours’ drive from one of the three major airports in the New York City area, a jet passes overhead every two to five minutes, residents say, since 1997, when the area became part of a landing approach to Newark Liberty International Airport. To the residents, many of whom moved to the Catskills to escape pollution and the urban hullabaloo, the constant noise is especially irksome.

“It’s like having a highway over my head,” said Euphrosyne Bloom, a poet and filmmaker who lives in West Saugerties, N.Y., near Woodstock. “They are loud enough to wake you up in the middle of the night.”

At 10,000 to 20,000 feet, airliners seem small, but even the newer, more efficient jets can be loud. Like sparrows towing a freight train, they rumble across the sky, leaving feathery white contrails, ribbons of exhaust that slowly disperse and form their own pseudo-cirrus clouds. In the minute or so it takes for a jet to pass overhead, the sound gets louder, until finally it fades away, a thunder without rain.

Now, for many residents across the region, from Bergen County in New Jersey to Litchfield County in Connecticut, noise levels from aircraft could change significantly under a major reorganization of the highways in the sky that the Federal Aviation Administration is undertaking for the first time since the 1960s. It is called the New York/New Jersey/Philadelphia Metropolitan Area Airspace Redesign Project.

After nine years of study, planning and public hearings, the F.A.A. is expected to make a decision this spring on how planes will be routed from the 5 major airports and 16 satellite airports within a 31,000-square-mile area that stretches from Delaware to Connecticut. The F.A.A. says it is part of an effort to address airplane delays in the nation’s busiest airspace and to minimize conflicts among planes in flight so controllers will not have to issue so many instructions. The proposed changes — combined with the steady increase in air traffic at satellite airports like Stewart International in New Windsor, N.Y., near Newburgh, Trenton-Mercer County in West Trenton, N.J., and Westchester County Airport in White Plains — have led to the creation of community organizations concerned about noise.

But many of these groups and elected officials say the F.A.A. is not adequately addressing concerns about noise levels on the ground. Representative Steve Rothman, a New Jersey Democrat, says the F.A.A.’s redesign plan does not include any meaningful provisions to reduce the impact of noise on people living below flight paths. “I am aware that our traffic patterns should be redesigned to reduce flight delays and allow more flights in and out of some of the busier airports,” he said. “I don’t believe F.A.A. officials have tried hard enough to do that.”

There are now four alternatives, and depending on the choice by the F.A.A., some people will hear more noise. Others will hear slightly less. Over all, those already noisy areas will stay the same. For example, New Jersey residents in the western edge of Warren County and in part of Somerset County could find a moderate reduction in noise levels, according to an F.A.A. projection of decibel levels. But residents in Bergen, Rockland and Orange Counties could experience a significant increase in air traffic noise.

Noise levels could also rise in and around Stamford and Danbury in Connecticut as well as nearly a dozen towns in Westchester, including Briarcliff Manor and Peekskill, because of changes at La Guardia Airport. Already, air traffic from the Westchester airport has prompted town officials in Greenwich to demand a mandatory ban on departures and landings from midnight to 6:30 a.m. after a voluntary restriction on overnight flights failed.

The four plans under consideration include modifying existing air space, routing air traffic over the ocean, making additional airspace available for air traffic controllers, or taking no action at all. Given the increased volume of air traffic nationwide — 739 million passengers last year, with the number expected to climb to 1 billion passengers in 2015 — the overall situation in the air is only going to get worse; not just in suburbs close to New York City but for miles, far beyond the city’s borders.

In Connecticut, in northern Litchfield County, jets taking off from Bradley International Airport in Windsor Locks, north of Hartford, cut across the countryside with increasing regularity. “It can get pretty loud,” said Roberta Memoli, a bank employee who has lived on Fuller Mountain, just outside Kent, for 17 years. “There are times when it’s like a traffic jam.”

Some 75 to 100 jets going to and from Bradley Airport fly over the area daily, according to F.A.A. officials, although local residents claim there are more. This number does not take into account additional overflights originating in Boston or Europe, which turn onto the same route, Victor 405, a kind of highway in the sky that connects the Bradley Airport area with the next ground-based navigational aid in Pawling, N.Y.

HIGHWAYS in the sky are somewhat analogous to highways on the ground, with large main routes that branch off into minor roadways. This is what the F.A.A. is rewriting. In the Northeast, a sectional aeronautical chart, or road map of the sky, looks almost as webbed and complex as road maps of the ground..... (continued)

[Jeff Reynolds]

Update Holland (through February 7, 2007):
http://www.contrails.nl/contrails-2007-1/magicgallery/7overflow.htm


The question that needs to be asked again- why if you think that chemtrails are contrails do you spend so much time on chemtrail boards? Is it because you are suffering from fudgitis? Anyone who looks into this mish mashing of chemtrails and contrails is going to wonder why you let Big Bunny and Chem11 have a free ride on their own version of the chemtrails are contrails rubbish.

And what exactly is Megasprayer arguing? Where are the one, two, or five threads that put it all together? It is quite strange that someone like yourself, and yes there are others just like you-- sore throat, know this, big bunny- those who copy and paste with none of their own writings to put the spam in perspective-- it is quite strange that you are not on science and geoengineering forums. But more and more people are starting to realize that the internet has become perverted. So you keep copying and pasting that chemtrails are contrails, and more people will start to see exactly what you are up to.

[foot_soldier]

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

I'll thank you to refrain from making erroneous assumptions about me or what I'm "up to."

I've been honest not only with you but with everyone else involved here. I say what I mean and I've expressed plenty of my own thinking in conjunction with "cut and paste" over the last seven years.

Stop taking your frustration out on me. You're out of line.

Thank you.

[halva]

Are you interested in my interpretation of Footsoldier's positions, Jeff Reynolds, which I could have outlined to you some months ago if you had responded to what I was saying reflectively rather than aggressively, seeking to have ME excluded as the source of confusion..

[Jeff Reynolds]

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

I'll thank you to refrain from making erroneous assumptions about me or what I'm "up to."

I've been honest not only with you but with everyone else involved here. I say what I mean and I've expressed plenty of my own thinking in conjunction with "cut and paste" over the last seven years.

Stop taking your frustration out on me. You're out of line.

Thank you.

Stop copying and pasting that chemtrails are contrails, and no one will have any questions about what you are up to. But you won't, because that's not what the astroturfing campaign you're a part of is about.

If you are so fed up with the "persistent contrails" that others call chemtrails, then go to anti-aviation and science forums. But you won't, because it is your role to fudge chemtrails into being contrails, just like Jay Reynolds does.

Fakes like yourself can get away with your nonsense for just so long until someone like myself starts questioning what you say, or in this case, what you don't say. It was all good for you when your co-worker Halvar the strawman was the one saying you were fudging. It is you and your ilk that are getting frustrated that your scheme has been exposed.

I am not the only one who sees exactly what you impostors are up to.

ALL AIRCRAFT ARE NOT INVOLVED (http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/thread11699-30.html)

posted by Man&Nature:

The time for being nice is over. Worrying about who we are offending or upsetting should be the least of our concerns. Is Free Speech still allowed on this website? Maybe angry writings will piss some people off into some activism of various sorts.

I'm sick of this damn tiptoeing around we do, being oh so very careful not to offend anyone or "disrupting things". I, personally, am downright pissed off to the max about the major chemtrailing on a near constant basis while the environment is becoming destroyed. The Internet is a free-for-all, everybody knows this. So, if somebody writes some B.S. about another, just ignore it and move on to more productive things.

In fact, I think what that last poster wrote about chem11.proboards2.com chemtrail central are almost right on. "The secret bases that you seek are your local airports and the evil sprayers are your friendly airlines etc." (written by BigBunny on the megasprayer website) HA!
And chemtrailcentral.com having sections with aliens, orbs, & interdimensional UFO's? HA-HA! A damn joke. On almost all of the internet search engines, when searching chemtrails, chemtrailcentral.com comes up right on the top of the list. Damn it CTC, you are obfuscating the real issue & research of chemtrails.

"The secret bases that you seek are your local airports and the evil sprayers are your friendly airlines etc." (written by BigBunny on the megasprayer website) HA!

So keep posting your tripe that chemtrails are contrails. Keep affiliating yourself with frauds like Megasprayer who declare that all aircraft are involved. Keep hanging out at chemtrail boards eventhough you are saying that chemtrails are contrails. Keep on working for Jay Reynolds. You are nothing but his appendage, and you are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about. You simply copy and paste and continue to feed the propaganda that Big Bunny, Chem11, Arcadia, and other fake chemmies have been trying to market.

And when you put your photo up at Megasprayer for a brief time, was that meant to make you seem more legitemate? I see your buddies Halvar and Lord Reynolds consistently posting that those who use their real names are more likely to be honest. Now while I thank you for removing the picture because it was causing excessive queasiness, I will still point out that there are a lot of savvy internet readers able to connect dots. I thank God for free speech. While you asshats can take pleasure in knowing that SwampAss has hidden all the Gastro threads, that does not mean that your psy-op is back on track. It's fairly obvious now what you fakes are doing.

So Julian Penrod, Wayne Hall, and Jim Phelps for example use their real names implying they are real people and not astroturfing fake strawmen? There is no proof that any of them are real.

Chemtrails are not contrails you fake copy and paster. You are at the top of the list for obfuscating the differences between chemtrails and contrails. But wait, let me leave you with a few obscure chemmie posts seemingly tied into this fake agenda of your crowd.

ALL AIRCRAFT INVOLVED PROPAGANDA (http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessageRange?topicID=817 9.topic&start=1&stop=20)

workersworld: I have suspected for years that the airlines are involved, and those pictures are proof finally! Its not just the military now, we have to realize that Southwest Airlines is now a part of it...

Looks like it has the same identical paint as the plane in the chemtrail pic, I think its safe to say the airlines are involved. Airlines are just tools of the wealthy and upper classes to travel quickly and it aids in the capitalistic supression of the the working classes by the wealthy and friends with Bu$hco McChimpenstein.

It would be impossibly for airlines not to be part of spraying everyone.

David E Carlson Finally, after almost 7 years, I got a photograph of one that dropped low enough to read the writing on the tail, which clearly read, "Southwest;" although, it wasn't spraying at the time, and I realized that the Feds are leasing Southwest Airlines airliners as spray planes.

How many others have noticed the red coloration of the sprayplanes.

This is not my photograph, but one from airliners.net:.....

Wow, chemmies linking to Airliners.net. Lord Reynolds has so many appendages.

The other day I saw clear blue skies turned into fake cloud cover due to specific aircraft. I've only seen this occur three times. The humidity was at 24%. It was simply too dry out for persistent contrails to form. But Foot Soldier and other fakes want people to think like Jay Reynolds that chemtrails are contrails. She even has linked to a website with chemtrails that are labelled as contrails. But you keep copying and pasting without any of your own insights or analysis. And then the masses of people who come across this rubbish will atleast have a fighting chance to see what you are doing.

Hey how is your debunker friend ChickieDeb doing? How much do you get paid?

[Jeff Reynolds]

Are you interested in my interpretation of Footsoldier's positions, Jeff Reynolds, which I could have outlined to you some months ago if you had responded to what I was saying reflectively rather than aggressively, seeking to have ME excluded as the source of confusion..

Halvar, you are a fake strawman whose role is to make chemmies appear insane. Your ties to Deep Shield, Jim Phelps, and many other fakes is all out there for people to see. You showed your true colours when you said that it is a sign of neurosis to think that there are fake chemmies. SwampAss showed his when he continually backed your nonsense and then shut down access to the Gastronamus Cafe.

I also read the other day where SoreThroat opined that Rense.com may have been shut down because Jeff Rense revealed one too many truths. The internet is one big fat psy-op, and I am not the only one who can see through the bullshit. Now why would I want to interact with a psy-op agent like yourself? I am in fact done interacting with you shitheads. My goal is to keep exposing yourselves along with the truth about chemtrails. I wish all my chemtrail blogging time could be spent on chemtrails, but you buggers have an extensive network of fakery. But you asshats should keep in mind that the truth really is out there, and that all the research I did at Gastro can be done again, and by anybody. The key is to get beyond the word chemtrail which has been perverted by you evil shits. Good people, engine search "radiative forcing" for example rather than chemtrails, basically use your imaginations to get beyond the misdirection generated by the impostors. Look for the nuggets hidden in the stinking pile of disinformation.

[foot_soldier]

"Jeff Reynolds":

You are way out of line.

You are attributing to me things I have never said and associations that do not exist.

For the record.

I suggest you stop right now.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[Big Bunny]

Well, Socrates, you've managed to insult everyone on both sides of the Debate. So now its time for a little honesty - no ranting, no raving - just a little honesty. Please explain to the humble brethren gathered the following issues:

1. What precisely are the origins of Chemtrails?
2. What effects do Chemtrails have on the atmosphere and at which levels?
3. How many ozone layers are present in the atmosphere?
4. What is 'radiative forcing' and how does it relate to the 'optical depth' of clouds?
5. What is 'particularate size' and how does it relate to 'radiative forcing'?
6. Please list the constituents of the exhaust from the average (not the latest) jet engine in service today where the engine is using JPA/JP8.

Thats enough for now. BTW we are not interested in your bleating about 800 posts being hidden at a defunct Forum. We are interested in your answers to these simple questions. Over to you, Socrates.

[halva]

The key is to get beyond the word chemtrail which has been perverted by you evil shits. Good people, engine search "radiative forcing" for example rather than chemtrails, basically use your imaginations to get beyond the misdirection generated by the impostors. Look for the nuggets hidden in the stinking pile of disinformation.

This is the only element in your posting that is worth focusing on. It is at the heart of Rosalind Peterson's strategy and it also has much to do with Footsoldier/Deborah's trajectory away from her initial positions on chemtrails, which she modified under the pressure of relentless slamming from debunkers.

Bur given your combination of low intelligence and mummy's boy megalomania, no-one is now going to help you develop your ideas in direction that can turn you into a useful and functioning member of "our movement" (and I do not hesitate to include the Megasprayer people in the category of "our movement", whatever they say about me, and/or say about this statement itself), You have cracked up psychologically and will not be able to continue for long in your present hysterical state.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Well, Socrates, you've managed to insult everyone on both sides of the Debate. So now its time for a little honesty - no ranting, no raving - just a little honesty. Please explain to the humble brethren gathered the following issues:

1. What precisely are the origins of Chemtrails?
2. What effects do Chemtrails have on the atmosphere and at which levels?
3. How many ozone layers are present in the atmosphere?
4. What is 'radiative forcing' and how does it relate to the 'optical depth' of clouds?
5. What is 'particularate size' and how does it relate to 'radiative forcing'?
6. Please list the constituents of the exhaust from the average (not the latest) jet engine in service today where the engine is using JPA/JP8.

Thats enough for now. BTW we are not interested in your bleating about 800 posts being hidden at a defunct Forum. We are interested in your answers to these simple questions. Over to you, Socrates.

It doesn't work that way Ms. Copy and Paster. I see over at CTC you are pulling the same stunt of ignoring the questions of you by asking irrelevant questions of the critic. You are quite the slob disinformation dispenser. One might think you shouldn't have blown the cover this soon dogbreath, that you are a chemtrail debunker.

BigBunny Likes to Copy and Paste can only provide robotic responses (http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/thread11699-30.html)

posted by Big Bunny:
{Man&Nature: In fact, I think what that last poster wrote about chem11.proboards2.com chemtrail central are almost right on. "The secret bases that you seek are your local airports and the evil sprayers are your friendly airlines etc." (written by BigBunny on the megasprayer website) HA! }


Care to explain Man&NAture?

Do you care to explain that quote from yourself you loser?

this one: "The secret bases that you seek are your local airports and the evil sprayers are your friendly airlines etc."

You're a piece of shit.



Then you wrote this you scumbag.
Starman1, I appreciate your concern. However I do believe I am owed an explanation this time. I am aware that these people are seeking to close down ALL debate on this subject. However this is not happening any time soon.

If Man&Nature is incompetent to answer my question so be it. As for the other schizoid poster, he has some questions to answer at DBS before he can achieve any credibility on this subject.

I am aware of the meaning of the ***nick*** and we have already dealt with the schizoid at Megasprayer. Don't worry about them trying to drag me anywhere - they aren't that bright.

Big Bunny-- you are now no different than Halva, Jim Phelps, Deborah, Chem11, Swampgas, Sorethroat, Arcadia Ego, Jeff Wells, Jeff Rense, "Deep Shield", "The Mechanic", Tom Flocco, Madsen, friggin Fox TV while we are at it. You can take that jet fuel theory that never quite gets explained, fill it into a rubber hose, and stick it up your nose. You are a worthless pile of shit who has been exposed for the debunker that you are.

So go keep copying and pasting. Word will gett around what you guys are doing. Carry on. You don't want to fade away like Citizenspook do ya???????? You Dumbass :cool:

I'm done with you, you're a fake bitch just like a lot of these people, Halva, Chem, Deborah, Swamp, Arcadia, etc.. You stink bitch. Now everyone will eventually figure this out.

You can't answer Man&Nature's post because he nailed you. And we are completely different people you jackass, but I'm sure you shitheads will say we are the same. There's already a SwampGas/Mech/Arcadia/Hillshoist type fake saying that I am Jay Reynolds. Yeah, you fuckers don't make any sense. You will never be able to astroturf your way out of this. You've been exposed for the dirtbags you are.


{****Starman thinks my name at CTC, FUIwon'tDoWhatUTellMe, is a subliminal for feud with them }

[increase 1776]

socrates,do you eat with that mouth? Answer the six questions,if you can.

[Big Bunny]

Thanks Increase1776 for your support. BTW I'm not lady as our little friend likes to quote but quite sincerely male as our friend is aware. Apparently this is an infantile attempt to antagonize me which as you can see isn't terribly effective.

Now to this irrelevant post of yours Socrates. If you can't answer these questions because there too hard for you, just say so. I won't hold it against you. But if you want call us all out as being debunkers then you must demonstrate to your audience that you have at least some basic understanding of the problem from a scientific perspective. Witnessing trails in the sky and bleating about the fact doesn't take you very far. Of course if you are working for the stakeholders then that does explain your behaviour, ineffective as it is.

In regard to the CTC comments I have asked for a reply from "Man&Nature" - not from you. If you can't bear not being the centre of attention - tough luck. Equally if you want to quote me out of context, that's fine provided you provide a link back to the thread in which the comment being criticized was made so that the reader can understand the context. To refuse or neglect to do so is simply intellectually dishonest.

In regard to your accusations, I have never referred to you as being "Man&Nature" - I wouldn't insult "Man&Nature" with such an allegation. Equally I would never suggest that you are the real Mr Reynolds - intellectually Mr Reynolds is light years ahead of you.

Bottom line: IF you are seeking the Truth then I'm afraid you have to do the hard yards like the rest of us. We don't tolerate parasites easily.

[CDsNuTz]

Equally I would never suggest that you are the real Mr Reynolds - intellectually Mr Reynolds is light years ahead of you.

You are totally correct on this, I seem to have let my pent up anger bring me down to his level...

Bottom line: IF you are seeking the Truth then I'm afraid you have to do the hard yards like the rest of us. We don't tolerate parasites easily.

No Kidding!! Not that I've contributed loads of information to the aerosol mitigation debate other then my own personal observations and a few "copy and pastes" here and there. I've been more of a reader/learner on this issue. My concerns are geared more towards the corrupt government/U.N./NWO agenda.

I've realized though, through his last post that he is extremely naive about this topic from top to bottom. Swamp, Mech, Arcadia, Increase, BigJoe and I all did battle at CTC over a year ago with some of the people he claims to have ousted as "tinfoil". From starman1,penrod ,phelps ,weatherman714 and several others that fail to come to mind..From scalar grids to giving the chinese information to steer storms, we delt with it and they all got banned for the nonsense they brought to the forum. Then the tides were turned, we were told to let them back and let them post what they want or leave our mod positions. We all saw how that tuned out. So all in all the real "FAKE" has shown his true colors, the colors of the uninformed..


PEACE

[foot_soldier]

We could and should have a superior passenger rail system in the U.S. In fact that would be a magnificent project for the creation of thousands of decently-paying jobs in this country. Meanwhile, this article made it into the L.A. Times Travel section:

February 18, 2007
Europe's trains may be your ticket to fighting global warming
http://www.latimes.com/travel/la-tr-internet18feb18,1,5629183.column?coll=la-travel-headlines

THE growth in lowfare air carriers flying in Europe coincides with a growing awareness of the environmental effects of air travel.

The amount of carbon dioxide (which many scientists link to global warming) generated per passenger on short-haul flights is about four times that generated by a train trip, according to the Carbon Neutral Co. The company, based in Britain, helps businesses and individuals mitigate their contribution to global warming.

So a train may be better for the environment, but navigating the rails in Europe can be a daunting experience. You have to figure out destinations, costs and schedules.

Fortunately, there is a website that provides help.

The Man in Seat 61 (www.seat61.com) is for travelers who don't like to fly, those who are worried about the environmental effects of flying and those who are simply up for adventure. Mark Smith, a train aficionado, founded it six years ago as a hobby.

It's named for Smith's favorite first-class seat on the Eurostar train from London to Paris. "It's one of a pair of individual seats with table that actually lines up with the window," Smith says on his website.

His work earned him recognition in the 2006 Responsible Tourism Awards as the person who made the greatest contribution to responsible tourism. The awards are sponsored by the Times of London, World Travel Market, Geographical magazine and http://www.responsibletravel.com , a British-based travel agency that promotes environmentally friendly travel.

Smith lives in Buckinghamshire, England, and commutes (by train, of course) to London, which is when he finds the time to keep his website current. He has a government job dealing with British train fares and regulations and in the past worked for British Rail.

No trip seems too far and no destination too exotic to escape his notice. He has had train adventures in Morocco, Tunisia, Italy, Albania, Malta, Turkey, Russia, Siberia and Japan.

"Why experience a plane?" Smith asks. "If you travel by train, you experience travel the way Europeans travel."

Many Americans mistakenly assume that flying is the fastest way to get around. In some cases, such as for longer distances, it can be. But for shorter hops, it can be quicker to travel by train, Smith says.

For example, in October, I took Eurostar from London to Paris. Total travel time was about 2 1/2 hours, from city center to city center. For a one-hour flight, I would have had to travel to an airport outside of London, wait at the airport, fly, then travel from the airport into Paris. I figured I saved at least a couple of hours.

Oddly, Eurostar is unlike other trains in Europe and does not sell cheap one-way tickets. Smith suggests booking the cheaper round-trip ticket for a one-way journey and discarding the return.

He also argues for buying tickets from the websites of the train companies rather than buying a Eurail pass. His website provides links to the various train companies' websites.

"Americans are genetically programmed to ask for a $500 rail pass for a $50 journey," he said. "You can get some terrific bargains by going direct to the trains' websites."

As for the award he received for promoting eco-friendly travel, he is humble.

"It's an amateur site, and it's just amazing that it's been recognized officially," he said. "There's this groundswell of avoiding flying…. The alternates are a lot more rewarding and a lot more practical than people expect."

Contact James Gilden at http://www.theinternettraveler.com

[halva]

I'd like to know more about this groundswell of avoiding flying and the reasons that might be given for it.

One reason that has been on my mind for the last six years is the shocking level of corruption in at least some airlines that must exist for a stunt like 9/11 to have been possible

I have avoided travelling by air for that and other reasons.

Nevertheless, I do not feel that this issue can subsitute for coming to grips with the complexity of "chemtrails".

[foot_soldier]

halva wrote:
.....Nevertheless, I do not feel that this issue can subsitute for coming to grips with the complexity of "chemtrails".....
For the last time - the issue being documented in this thread is not intended to "substitute" for "coming to grips with the complexity of 'chemtrails'."

This thread seeks to examine what I feel is a related and underreported issue.

If you have a problem with that, halva, that's too damned bad.

I am through being polite regarding your agenda here.

[halva]

It is quite a while since you have been polite, Footsoldier.

I do not believe that your motives for becoming concerned with airline emissions have nothing to do with a conclusion that "chemrails" belong in the "too hard" basket.

Do you have a problem with that? That's too damned bad.

[halva]

You could have focused on the other aspect of my post, i.e. more documentation on why people are beginning to go off flying, if they are.

[foot_soldier]

halva wrote:
.....I do not believe that your motives for becoming concerned with airline emissions have nothing to do with a conclusion that "chemrails" belong in the "too hard" basket.....

How about knowing what you're talking about before spewing your off-base assumptions about my "motives"?

Or does knowing what you're talking about fall into the "too complicated" basket?

2004
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessage?topicID=7648.top ic

According to you I have a choice and one choice only. I can either be concerned about the atmospheric impact of aviation emissions or I can be concerned about solar insolation management aka atmospheric macro-engineering aka "chemtrails."

Certainly not both.

Quelle horreur!

And God forbid I should also be concerned (and actually know a little something about, thank you very much) pollution-driven stratospheric ozone depletion and anthropogenic surface warming, not to mention that I see all of the aforementioned as being interconnected.

I believe you are being deliberately obtuse at this late date. Sorry to be so blunt.

[halva]

You could have focused on the other aspect of my post, i.e. more documentation on why people are beginning to go off flying, if they are.

.

[halva]

How about knowing what you're talking about before spewing your off-base assumptions about my "motives"?


Analyse this comment. How can I know your motives other than saying something about them and seeing how you react?

But of course I know how you are going to react. That is why I always leave an escape route so that you can show whether you prefer to elaborate on a subject where we agree or argue about something on which we disagree.


Or does knowing what you're talking about fall into the "too complicated" basket?[/color]


I have never failed to pay tribute to your level of knowledge of what you know about. Is that our present subject?


2004
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessage?topicID=7648.top ic

According to you I have a choice and one choice only. I can either be concerned about the atmospheric impact of aviation emissions or I can be concerned about solar insolation management aka atmospheric macro-engineering aka "chemtrails."


If that is the case why did I point out that you could, if you wished, have concentrated on the other aspect of my posting?


Certainly not both.

Quelle horreur!

And God forbid I should also be concerned (and actually know a little something about, thank you very much) pollution-driven stratospheric ozone depletion and anthropogenic surface warming, not to mention that I see all of the aforementioned as being interconnected.

I believe you are being deliberately obtuse at this late date. Sorry to be so blunt.


Why should I be deliberately obtuse?? And why are you sorry to be "blunt"?

I think the overall parameters of our positions are pretty clear by now, Footsoldier, and we can choose whether or not we want to have public arguments.

[foot_soldier]

.....You could have focused on the other aspect of my post, i.e. more documentation on why people are beginning to go off flying, if they are.....

Living in Europe as you do, you cannot have failed to notice for yourself what is transpiring in regard to the commercial aviation sector. A considerable body of documentation exists right in this thread.

I do not know whether or not "people are (in fact) beginning to go off flying." That is something which will become clearer with time.

Again, I believe you are being deliberately obtuse not to mention provocative.

[foot_soldier]

.....Analyse this comment. How can I know your motives other than saying something about them and seeing how you react?.....
Now I know once and for all that you are in fact playing games.

I have repeatedly made very clear exactly what concerns me and why.

You have in fact, and on several occasions, exploited me on that level. So don't try to give the impression that you haven't a clue as to what it is that motivates me.

For the record then.

[foot_soldier]

We could and should have a superior passenger rail system in the U.S. In fact that would be a magnificent project for the creation of thousands of decently-paying jobs in this country. Meanwhile, this article made it into the L.A. Times Travel section:

February 18, 2007
Europe's trains may be your ticket to fighting global warming
http://www.latimes.com/travel/la-tr-internet18feb18,1,5629183.column?coll=la-travel-headlines

THE growth in lowfare air carriers flying in Europe coincides with a growing awareness of the environmental effects of air travel.

The amount of carbon dioxide (which many scientists link to global warming) generated per passenger on short-haul flights is about four times that generated by a train trip, according to the Carbon Neutral Co. The company, based in Britain, helps businesses and individuals mitigate their contribution to global warming.

So a train may be better for the environment, but navigating the rails in Europe can be a daunting experience. You have to figure out destinations, costs and schedules.

Fortunately, there is a website that provides help.

The Man in Seat 61 (www.seat61.com) is for travelers who don't like to fly, those who are worried about the environmental effects of flying and those who are simply up for adventure. Mark Smith, a train aficionado, founded it six years ago as a hobby.

It's named for Smith's favorite first-class seat on the Eurostar train from London to Paris. "It's one of a pair of individual seats with table that actually lines up with the window," Smith says on his website.

His work earned him recognition in the 2006 Responsible Tourism Awards as the person who made the greatest contribution to responsible tourism. The awards are sponsored by the Times of London, World Travel Market, Geographical magazine and http://www.responsibletravel.com , a British-based travel agency that promotes environmentally friendly travel.

Smith lives in Buckinghamshire, England, and commutes (by train, of course) to London, which is when he finds the time to keep his website current. He has a government job dealing with British train fares and regulations and in the past worked for British Rail.

No trip seems too far and no destination too exotic to escape his notice. He has had train adventures in Morocco, Tunisia, Italy, Albania, Malta, Turkey, Russia, Siberia and Japan.

"Why experience a plane?" Smith asks. "If you travel by train, you experience travel the way Europeans travel."

Many Americans mistakenly assume that flying is the fastest way to get around. In some cases, such as for longer distances, it can be. But for shorter hops, it can be quicker to travel by train, Smith says.

For example, in October, I took Eurostar from London to Paris. Total travel time was about 2 1/2 hours, from city center to city center. For a one-hour flight, I would have had to travel to an airport outside of London, wait at the airport, fly, then travel from the airport into Paris. I figured I saved at least a couple of hours.

Oddly, Eurostar is unlike other trains in Europe and does not sell cheap one-way tickets. Smith suggests booking the cheaper round-trip ticket for a one-way journey and discarding the return.

He also argues for buying tickets from the websites of the train companies rather than buying a Eurail pass. His website provides links to the various train companies' websites.

"Americans are genetically programmed to ask for a $500 rail pass for a $50 journey," he said. "You can get some terrific bargains by going direct to the trains' websites."

As for the award he received for promoting eco-friendly travel, he is humble.

"It's an amateur site, and it's just amazing that it's been recognized officially," he said. "There's this groundswell of avoiding flying…. The alternates are a lot more rewarding and a lot more practical than people expect."

Contact James Gilden at http://www.theinternettraveler.com
.

[halva]

I know that the minority tendency in the Commission represented by Dimas is trying to include aircraft emissions in the general Kyoto guidelines.

They will presumably continue to do this without my helping them.

I also know that Dimas is in the camp of the opposition when it comes to getting straight talking off the ground on the subject of geoengineering, weather modification, etc .etc.

Do you want me to stop seeing this as a problem?

[foot_soldier]

For what it's worth, I am sorry to be so blunt.

It's down to this, however. You have your approach and I have mine.

I wish you well with yours.

And I will thank you to leave me to mine.

Good Night.

[halva]

That is what I have been doing. But as I said, I will continue to comment on your postings here, if I think a comment is warranted.

That is part of what is involved in you having your approach and me having mine. After all, I cannot post at Megasprayer.

[halva]

Similarly the anti-nuclear observatory in Rhodes sent a message yesterday telling us that the Greek government is under pressure at the moment to "prepare public opinion" for a renewed attempt to build a nuclear power station in Greece. We immediately sent off a message of support.

Does this mean we are going to keep our mouths shut about the degree of blame to be shared by the anti-nuclear movement for things having come to the present pretty pass on the anti-nuclear front.

Do we just forget about how much Greenpeace has done to dumb down anti-nuclear debate?

[halva]

Do we forget about how NO-ONE helped Yeltsin in his attempt to rid the Soviet Union of nuclear weapons?

[EdSnell]

After all, I cannot post at Megasprayer.If I were less of a gentleman, you would not be able to post anywhere. However, I feel that freedom of speech is a God given right. Also, you being allowed to post provides you with the opportunity to expose yourself for what and whom you truly are: part of the underbelly of society.

Isn't it ironic, Wayne, to find yourself exiled at DBS after recently harrassing Jay. Maybe Carnicom would have you.:D

[halva]

You are with us until next Friday, Ed Snell, if your word is to be believed.

[EdSnell]

You are with us until next Friday, Ed Snell, if your word is to be believed.
I see how terribly you going to miss me. I suppose I could stop by on occasion from a wi-fi hotspot as I'm checking my email.

[halva]

Don't bother.

[EdSnell]

Don't bother.

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/8707/bigcryyj0.gif

[Lou]

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/8707/bigcryyj0.gif

Way to go Ed, your really impressing everyone that reads this crap with how juvenile you are.

Do you actually have anything of substance to say or is the 12 year old mentality the best that you can come up with ?

Sigh ! :rolleyes:

[EdSnell]

Way to go Ed, your really impressing everyone that reads this crap with how juvenile you are.

Do you actually have anything of substance to say or is the 12 year old mentality the best that you can come up with ?

Sigh ! :rolleyes:

What?

I was conversing with Wayne which necessitates that I drop down to the level of a 12 year old .

Would you care to have an intelligent conversation, Lou? We could talk about......oh, I don't know......how about the chemtrail hoax?

[halva]

Routines die hard.

Our Greek debunker at the Esoterica forum is trying to persuade us of the joys of global dimming, but I can understand that not all of the other side wants to move on to this new terrain.

[Jeff Reynolds]

How about knowing what you're talking about before spewing your off-base assumptions about my "motives"?

Or does knowing what you're talking about fall into the "too complicated" basket?

2004
http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessage?topicID=7648.top ic

According to you I have a choice and one choice only. I can either be concerned about the atmospheric impact of aviation emissions or I can be concerned about solar insolation management aka atmospheric macro-engineering aka "chemtrails."

Certainly not both.

Quelle horreur!

And God forbid I should also be concerned (and actually know a little something about, thank you very much) pollution-driven stratospheric ozone depletion and anthropogenic surface warming, not to mention that I see all of the aforementioned as being interconnected.

I believe you are being deliberately obtuse at this late date. Sorry to be so blunt.

By saying you know so much without doing anything more than copying and pasting shows that you have this agenda to fog up the differences between chemtrails and contrails. If one goes to that Carnicom link they will find that you are in agreement with Yaak that all aircraft are involved.

Yaak wrote:

.....For whatever it's worth, I have noticed a dramatic increase in nighttime (early morning hours) aviation.....

That's very interesting - thanks. Is this early A.M. increase in air traffic pretty consistent from day to day? Do you think it's pretty consistent as to the [additional] number of flights? Any way you can tell whether they're primarily commercials?

Yaak wrote:

.....Anyway, if something is being done on any large scale it seems to me that it involves the fuel.....

I tend to agree with that.

Yaak responded:

Quote:Any way you can tell whether they're primarily commercials?

No. They are not fast, loud fighter planes. Some could be and probably are personal/private jets.


Then Yaak puts up the disinfo that all aircraft are involved, and Deborah as usual ignores addressing this issue proving once again that it is her job to confuse chemtrails with contrails.

Yaak: Pollution is changing the weather.

The changing weather is causing and altering persistent contrails.

Persistent contrails are revising the weather.

A giant snowball, growing and accelerating.

-Is anyone trying to stop or alter the course of this proverbial snowball (geo-engineering)? or is it too late or too expensive?
-Does anybody that could do something about this giant snowball even care?
-Are there those that are trying to use the weather as a weapon (desertification of North America)?...
One can see exactly what you and your disingenuous ilk are up to.
Someone has an agenda to make it seem that all aircraft are involved (http://p211.ezboard.com/fchemtrailschemtrails.showMessageRange?topicID=738 5.topic&start=221&stop=240)

posted by Taskatan:
As a slightly more than casual observer, it has come to my attention via the use of binoculars that 90% of aircraft seen by me to be emitting chemtrails are of one type. Now, I'm not an expert at aircraft identification, but suffice to say it is of modern vintage, closely resembling an L-1011. The important point I wish to make is that these airliners all have one thing in common, at least in my geographic locale, which is So. Calif., and that commonality is that the fuselages are all painted "hot pink". They all have a chrome nose, and chrome, or most likely, polished aluminum wings.

The great incongruity in my study of this modern dilema however, is that of all the pictures of jet aircraft I see on these chemtrail sites, they all seem to be pictures of otherwise normal commercial aircraft.

Perhaps someone else has seen these pinkies, or knows something more than observation will permit. I also wonder, why no one of all these blogs, etc. has never tracked one to its' destination.

I personally do not know about what colours or composition make up the chemtrail jets, but one thing I am certain of is that ALL AIRCRAFT ARE NOT INVOLVED. It's strange how Foot Soldier continues to hang out at chemtrail forums when she is in fact a debunker. The gig is up. You have been exposed. And this hasn't been done by some fake debunker or fake believer. This has been done by someone who doesn't simply copy and paste and try to present myself as some insightful know-it-all. The only thing you and your ilk know is that the message needs to be hoisted that ALL AIRCRAFT ARE INVOLVED. They aren't. You are a fraud.

[foot_soldier]

"Jeff Reynolds" wrote:
.....but one thing I am certain of is that ALL AIRCRAFT ARE NOT INVOLVED.....
Listen, whoever you are, that is your fight, not mine. You are sticking it to the wrong person.

Once again, you are out of line. Not that I care personally, as I'm beyond caring what you or anyone else thinks. But you don't get to misrepresent me in a public venue and I intend to speak up about it whenever you do.

[foot_soldier]

I bought a copy of the February 16 issue of New York magazine today. The following image was included with the below-posted article. This image appeared as almost a 2-page spread in the magazine itself:

http://nymag.com/news/features/airport070219_1_560.jpg

Could Union Square Be Your Next Airport?
Why turn Stewart (where?) into New York’s fourth airport? SHoP Architects presents a radical alternative, in which check-in could be as close as 14th Street.
http://nymag.com/news/features/27826/

No one doubts that the city needs a new airport: Our gateways to the sky are inconvenient, inefficient vestiges of decades past, their weaknesses made all the more apparent by the fact that the transport hub at the other end of a flight to or from New York is almost always sleeker and less chaotic than our three-headed monster (“LGA/JFK/EWR-berus”). So it was certainly nice to hear that the Port Authority is taking over the lease on Stewart International Airport with an eye toward expanding the sleepy former Air Force base.

But must this new airport be 55 miles north of the city, closer to Woodstock than to Manhattan? (It’s in Newburgh, New York—you know, Newburgh? Right between New Windsor and Plattekill?) The idea is that Stewart will siphon off travelers who live north and west of town, and thereby alleviate the crushing burden on the other airports. But it does nothing to address the horrendous mass-transit system that feeds our airports, and, let’s be frank, it also lacks a certain pizzazz.

So here’s another idea from SHoP Architects, which responded to our request for a superior fourth-airport proposal with a fascinating scheme for solving the space crunch using the ones we already have. It’s a high-speed-rail loop, in which trains would serve both as a means of conveyance to the airport and, in effect, as the airport. In a bold new check-in paradigm, passengers would get their boarding passes and go through security at special stations in Union Square and Red Hook (and Astoria and Grand Central and …), then hop on trains that would let them out directly at their plane. Such an approach would have the added benefit of reducing the airport space devoted to terminals, making room for more runways.

Aviation experts will no doubt find holes to poke here—but this is our future-jet-age fantasy, and if Amsterdam can figure out how to put a commuter-rail depot underneath the airport food court, we can certainly get a few trains up and running. Port Authority, take heed!..... (continued)

Regarding the condition of the sky in the above-posted photograph, whether it's "business-as-usual" aviation emissions, or a full-fledged macro-engineering protocol being implemented in our faces, or just plain "chemtrails", it's not a good thing that's taking place in the most sensitive layer of the troposphere.

What really unnerves me is that if it were to turn out that this mess is exclusively the result of too much air traffic burning high-sulfur (i.e. cheaper) fuel, people wouldn't think anything of it, at least not from what I've seen over the last 6-7 years. I find that rather frightening, frankly.

I am expressing an observation here, not "pushing an agenda."

[Jeff Reynolds]

Listen, whoever you are, that is your[ fight, not mine. You are sticking it to the wrong person.

Once again, you are out of line. Not that I care personally, as I'm beyond caring what you or anyone else thinks. But you don't get to misrepresent me in a public venue and I intend to speak up about it whenever you do.

You should get off of chemtrail forums since you are nothing but a copy and paste Reynolds appendage presenting chemtrails as contrails. You should post at airlines.net or science forums dealing with aviation pollution.

The truth is that you do care what masses of people think, just like all of us who post at forums. You want masses of people to believe that there isn't a distinct program mucking up the skies. That's why it has become clear that you are either on a payroll or are a useful idiot. Just because someone copies and pastes a lot doesn't mean that they know that much. You are out of line posting at chemtrail forums where debunking is frowned upon. You and your ilk are simply preying on the masses of us who want to see an end to the Frankenstein geoengineering. We wanted to believe that at least a few of you chemtrail forum veterans were legitemate. That is how you fooled us for so long.

[foot_soldier]

You are out of line, Mister.

For the record.

[Jeff Reynolds]

I bought a copy of the February 16 issue of New York magazine today. The following image was included with the below-posted article. This image appeared as almost a 2-page spread in the magazine itself:

http://nymag.com/news/features/airport070219_1_560.jpg




Regarding the condition of the sky in the above-posted photograph, whether it's "business-as-usual" aviation emissions, or a full-fledged macro-engineering protocol being implemented in our faces, or just plain "chemtrails", it's not a good thing that's taking place in the most sensitive layer of the troposphere.

What really unnerves me is that if it were to turn out that this mess is exclusively the result of too much air traffic burning high-sulfur (i.e. cheaper) fuel, people wouldn't think anything of it, at least not from what I've seen over the last 6-7 years. I find that rather frightening, frankly.

I am expressing an observation here, not "pushing an agenda."

That's why it's so fried that you, BB, and Chem11 continue to push this crap that all aircraft are involved. That is why Ed Snell is so welcomed at the Megasprayer website. You are all portraying this as being some kind of jet fuel explanation involving all aircraft. What none of you seem to want to declare loudly is that the military has the exemption for the high sulfur content, while the commercial and private planes don't.

Plus, I might be wrong, but it appears that those "trails" are too low to form naturally. For someone who is all over these chemtrail forums, it is ridiculous how little you actually have to offer as regards to chemtrails. Chemtrails are not the same as contrails, except to copy and pasters and fake debunkers like yourself.

So this quote of yours is simply someone arguing that chemtrails are contrails. You say that it would disturb you if people started to believe that the last 9 years, not 6 or 7, of excessive white outs is due to some change in the jet fuel. Yet, if this really were disturbing to you, you would stop copying and pasting that this is what has been going on.

[Jeff Reynolds]

You are out of line, Mister.

For the record.

For the record you have been exposed as a debunker by a chemmie.

[foot_soldier]

I have repeatedly made very clear exactly where I am coming from. If you want to continue to copy/paste from my posts, characterizing as conclusions statements that are in actuality intrinsic to and consistent with an ongoing process of inquiry, I will continue to point out that you are wilfully misrepresenting me.

You have a real problem with this particular, deliberately topic-specific thread, obviously.

I find that interesting but not surprising.

[foot_soldier]

I bought a copy of the February 16 issue of New York magazine today. The following image was included with the below-posted article. This image appeared as almost a 2-page spread in the magazine itself:

http://nymag.com/news/features/airport070219_1_560.jpg

Could Union Square Be Your Next Airport?
Why turn Stewart (where?) into New York’s fourth airport? SHoP Architects presents a radical alternative, in which check-in could be as close as 14th Street.
http://nymag.com/news/features/27826/

No one doubts that the city needs a new airport: Our gateways to the sky are inconvenient, inefficient vestiges of decades past, their weaknesses made all the more apparent by the fact that the transport hub at the other end of a flight to or from New York is almost always sleeker and less chaotic than our three-headed monster (“LGA/JFK/EWR-berus”). So it was certainly nice to hear that the Port Authority is taking over the lease on Stewart International Airport with an eye toward expanding the sleepy former Air Force base.

But must this new airport be 55 miles north of the city, closer to Woodstock than to Manhattan? (It’s in Newburgh, New York—you know, Newburgh? Right between New Windsor and Plattekill?) The idea is that Stewart will siphon off travelers who live north and west of town, and thereby alleviate the crushing burden on the other airports. But it does nothing to address the horrendous mass-transit system that feeds our airports, and, let’s be frank, it also lacks a certain pizzazz.

So here’s another idea from SHoP Architects, which responded to our request for a superior fourth-airport proposal with a fascinating scheme for solving the space crunch using the ones we already have. It’s a high-speed-rail loop, in which trains would serve both as a means of conveyance to the airport and, in effect, as the airport. In a bold new check-in paradigm, passengers would get their boarding passes and go through security at special stations in Union Square and Red Hook (and Astoria and Grand Central and …), then hop on trains that would let them out directly at their plane. Such an approach would have the added benefit of reducing the airport space devoted to terminals, making room for more runways.

Aviation experts will no doubt find holes to poke here—but this is our future-jet-age fantasy, and if Amsterdam can figure out how to put a commuter-rail depot underneath the airport food court, we can certainly get a few trains up and running. Port Authority, take heed!..... (continued)

Regarding the condition of the sky in the above-posted photograph, whether it's "business-as-usual" aviation emissions, or a full-fledged macro-engineering protocol being implemented in our faces, or just plain "chemtrails", it's not a good thing that's taking place in the most sensitive layer of the troposphere.

What really unnerves me is that if it were to turn out that this mess is exclusively the result of too much air traffic burning high-sulfur (i.e. cheaper) fuel, people wouldn't think anything of it, at least not from what I've seen over the last 6-7 years. I find that rather frightening, frankly.

I am expressing an observation here, not "pushing an agenda."
.

[Lou]

You are out of line, Mister.

For the record.

FS,

I find the best thing to do with a moron is ignore them, something you may wish to consider with regard to Jeff.

Obviously the only thing he wants to do is attack and cause chaos wherever he goes, as so many can attest too now.

I'm sorry to say that I once respected his thoughts, ah, but no longer, he is not worth it, I have more respect for Jay and YAAK-ASS, Ed Snell, at least I know where they are coming from, unlike this idiot.

[halva]

I must admit that I DO NOT KNOW whether civil airliners are involved in spraying. I see the photos at airliners, and I know what Deep Shield is reported as having said - not that this cuts any ice with Jeff Reynolds/Socrates. On the other hand I have never personally seen any spraying from civilian airliners. The spraying over where I live is carried out by quite different aircraft from those going to the Athens airport. On the other hand, these civilian aircraft could be spraying at other points on their flight, for all I know.

These issues are among those that could and should be raised at a forum that is trying to engage seriously with geoengineering/weather modification.. Even this forum could become a forum like that now that the debunkers (to be optimistic, if this is what has happened) are beginning to sense that there is very little political mileage to be gained now from stirring the contrails/chemtrails pot.

But Jeff Reynolds/Socrates seems only to be able to debate if he can fixate on "enemies" somewhere. Thjis would be OK if they were the real enemies. The debunkers who have been at this forum are or were real enemies. But Jeff Reynolds/Socratres has specifically said that he thinks they are "not the worst". Even worse than the debunkers are the "fakes", which apparently includes myself, Footsoldier/Deborah, Big Bunny, Chem, Swamp. Just about everyone on our side.

Nothing useful can be done from an outlook like this. I personally do not believe that Jeff Reynolds/Socrates is a "fake", but a deliberate fake WOULD behave in the way he behaves. Others might like to accuse Jeff Reynolds/Socrates of BEING a fake, and he could not prove that he is not one. That puts him in the same boat as the rest of us.

Personally I do not like being lumped together with Big Bunny, Chem, Footsoldier, etc. I have disagreements with them which I think are important and would like to see being discussed intelligently. Without being the absolute centre of interest. The absolute centre of interest is the problem that we all (apart from the debunkers) agree is a problem: these unexplained phenomena in the sky and the political climate that is associated with them, and with the lack of explanation.

Once I used to have what I thought were good relations with Socrates. He used to talk to me once in a way that he does not talk to me now. Perhaps he did not like the relationship, which was not one of equals, as I had co-opted him into MY strategies. Very well. I have given up on that. I can't use Socrates for my purposes.

Can Socrates use me for HIS purposes, now that he has discovered that he cannot get me removed from anywhere apart from Megasprayer?

Think about it Jeff Reynolds/Socrates. I am at your disposal, to be used by you, if you can make it clear what you are trying to do, and if I agree with your aims.

[Lou]

Why should the spraying be exclusive to either civil or military aircraft?

I have posed this very question many times in the past but I believe the class was napping at the time because there are people out there that think I only believe that military aircraft are involved when in fact I believe that it is a combination of both.

My belief is based on personal observations of both civil and military aircraft conducting spraying although I can not say that civilian airliners are involved with any certainty, I have observed civilian type aircraft, MD 10's and 11's, 757's etc,...but again the Government / military leases or owns outright many of these types of aircraft which could be easily modified for spraying operations.

I'm of the opinion that given the worldwide scope of this spraying now, the combined military of all the countries involved can not alone support such a spraying operation and they would need to incorporate as many civilian assets as possible, even if it means using older model aircraft that have long past there flight hour lifetimes.

Regarding Jeff Reynolds.

You wrote,

"But Jeff Reynolds/Socrates seems only to be able to debate if he can fixate on "enemies" somewhere. This would be OK if they were the real enemies. The debunkers who have been at this forum are or were real enemies. But Jeff Reynolds/Socratres has specifically said that he thinks they are "not the worst". Even worse than the debunkers are the "fakes", which apparently includes myself, Footsoldier/Deborah, Big Bunny, Chem, Swamp. Just about everyone on our side.

Nothing useful can be done from an outlook like this. I personally do not believe that Jeff Reynolds/Socrates is a "fake", but a deliberate fake WOULD behave in the way he behaves. Others might like to accuse Jeff Reynolds/Socrates of BEING a fake, and he could not prove that he is not one. That puts him in the same boat as the rest of us."
__________________________________________________

That is very well put Halva, I too am lumped into his "Tinfoil" group but as far as I am concerned, Jeff Reynolds is a dead end issue not worth spending my time on, he is what he is and he will have to live with that,......... I don't and won't.

[foot_soldier]

I bought a copy of the February 16 issue of New York magazine today. The following image was included with the below-posted article. This image appeared as almost a 2-page spread in the magazine itself:

http://nymag.com/news/features/airport070219_1_560.jpg

Could Union Square Be Your Next Airport?
Why turn Stewart (where?) into New York’s fourth airport? SHoP Architects presents a radical alternative, in which check-in could be as close as 14th Street.
http://nymag.com/news/features/27826/

No one doubts that the city needs a new airport: Our gateways to the sky are inconvenient, inefficient vestiges of decades past, their weaknesses made all the more apparent by the fact that the transport hub at the other end of a flight to or from New York is almost always sleeker and less chaotic than our three-headed monster (“LGA/JFK/EWR-berus”). So it was certainly nice to hear that the Port Authority is taking over the lease on Stewart International Airport with an eye toward expanding the sleepy former Air Force base.

But must this new airport be 55 miles north of the city, closer to Woodstock than to Manhattan? (It’s in Newburgh, New York—you know, Newburgh? Right between New Windsor and Plattekill?) The idea is that Stewart will siphon off travelers who live north and west of town, and thereby alleviate the crushing burden on the other airports. But it does nothing to address the horrendous mass-transit system that feeds our airports, and, let’s be frank, it also lacks a certain pizzazz.

So here’s another idea from SHoP Architects, which responded to our request for a superior fourth-airport proposal with a fascinating scheme for solving the space crunch using the ones we already have. It’s a high-speed-rail loop, in which trains would serve both as a means of conveyance to the airport and, in effect, as the airport. In a bold new check-in paradigm, passengers would get their boarding passes and go through security at special stations in Union Square and Red Hook (and Astoria and Grand Central and …), then hop on trains that would let them out directly at their plane. Such an approach would have the added benefit of reducing the airport space devoted to terminals, making room for more runways.

Aviation experts will no doubt find holes to poke here—but this is our future-jet-age fantasy, and if Amsterdam can figure out how to put a commuter-rail depot underneath the airport food court, we can certainly get a few trains up and running. Port Authority, take heed!..... (continued)

Regarding the condition of the sky in the above-posted photograph, whether it's "business-as-usual" aviation emissions, or a full-fledged macro-engineering protocol being implemented in our faces, or just plain "chemtrails", it's not a good thing that's taking place in the most sensitive layer of the troposphere.

What really unnerves me is that if it were to turn out that this mess is exclusively the result of too much air traffic burning high-sulfur (i.e. cheaper) fuel, people wouldn't think anything of it, at least not from what I've seen over the last 6-7 years. I find that rather frightening, frankly.

I am expressing an observation here, not "pushing an agenda."
.

[halva]

This is a reassertion of Footsoldier's familiar position.

[Lou]

This is a reassertion of Footsoldier's familiar position.

Wayne,

I absolutely agree with FS with regard to all jet aircraft causing massive pollution in the atmosphere, that's a proven fact that no one can dispute.

The point that I would stress is that not all aircraft are involved in aerosol spraying operations, aviation related pollution and deliberate aerosol spraying are completely separate issues and should not be confused with each other in any way as some people seem to be doing either by their ignorance or by design in order to confuse the issue regarding aerosol spraying operations that we see taking place. :eek:

[halva]

Wayne,

I absolutely agree with FS with regard to all jet aircraft causing massive pollution in the atmosphere, that's a proven fact that no one can dispute.


So do I.


The point that I would stress is that not all aircraft are involved in aerosol spraying operations, aviation related pollution and deliberate aerosol spraying are completely separate issues and should not be confused with each other in any way as some people seem to be doing either by their ignorance or by design in order to confuse the issue regarding aerosol spraying operations that we see taking place. :eek:

Ignorance and design are not the only possibilities. I don't think that Footsoldier is either ignorant or an agent of evil.

[Lou]

So do I.



Ignorance and design are not the only possibilities. I don't think that Footsoldier is either ignorant or an agent of evil.

Wayne,

I made nor make any such inference toward FS in my "ignorance / design" comment, you seem to be reading it as though I am on the attack, I am not.

Please reread my post without thinking in those terms, it was a general comment about "some" people, not any particular person, ok ?

[halva]

I don't think you're on the attack, and I'm not on the attack. There is no need to be heavy about Footsoldier or anyone else who is on our side.

[Lou]

I don't think you're on the attack, and I'm not on the attack. There is no need to be heavy about Footsoldier or anyone else who is on our side.

Glad to see that we are in agreement on all counts.

Cheers. :D

[Jeff Reynolds]

Glad to see that we are in agreement on all counts.

Cheers. :D

Here is more of their fake us versus them psy-op.

[Jeff Reynolds]

Foot Soldier is on the wrong forums. She is deliberately confusing chemtrails with contrails. She and a few others copy and paste without any insights. Sure, aviation pollution is bad, I don't see why we have so many commercial flights going on. We need to get back to nature and humanity and put an end to war. Even Eisenhower spoke out about the military industrial complex getting too big. I wouldn't be surprised if most of these fakes are paid by the military, out of some slush fund with the heading as "public relations". But these long time forum posters are up to no good. She or he should be on environmental or anti-aviation pollution forums. But no, she/he wont go there, because it is her/its job along with Chem11, BigBunny, Arcadia, and Jay Reynolds to astroturf that the fake cloud cover is coming from regular aircraft.

[increase 1776]

Jeff Reynolds, I mean socrates, Look , Chemtrail subliminals. http://www.marcymarc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bf1942posters/Dick_Fury/pics/asshat.jpg

[halva]

Foot Soldier is on the wrong forums. She is deliberately confusing chemtrails with contrails. She and a few others copy and paste without any insights. Sure, aviation pollution is bad, I don't see why we have so many commercial flights going on. We need to get back to nature and humanity and put an end to war. Even Eisenhower spoke out about the military industrial complex getting too big. I wouldn't be surprised if most of these fakes are paid by the military, out of some slush fund with the heading as "public relations". But these long time forum posters are up to no good. She or he should be on environmental or anti-aviation pollution forums. But no, she/he wont go there, because it is her/its job along with Chem11, BigBunny, Arcadia, and Jay Reynolds to astroturf that the fake cloud cover is coming from regular aircraft.

Why are you unwilling to address me directly about this, Socrates/Jeff Reynolds?? I have told you that I think there is something unsatisfactory about Footsoldier's positions, and I would to see intelligent analysis of this. Why do you persist in the outrageous insult of putting her into the same category as Jay Reynolds (who stalked her and hounded her with relentless sadism for years) and insisting that she is doing what she is doing as part of some paid "job".

If only it were TRUE that some were paying Footsoldier for her voluntary work on these subjects!!!

I don't think you are a deliberate wrecker. You are just a misguided idiot. But idiocy is no excuse.

[halva]

Let me tell you something, Socrates/Jeff Reynolds. I get just as frustrated with the anti-nuclear movement as you appear to be with the chemtrails forums.

[Lou]

Why are you unwilling to address me directly about this, Socrates/Jeff Reynolds?? I have told you that I think there is something unsatisfactory about Footsoldier's positions, and I would to see intelligent analysis of this. Why do you persist in the outrageous insult of putting her into the same category as Jay Reynolds (who stalked her and hounded her with relentless sadism for years) and insisting that she is doing what she is doing as part of some paid "job".

If only it were TRUE that some were paying Footsoldier for her voluntary work on these subjects!!!

I don't think you are a deliberate wrecker. You are just a misguided idiot. But idiocy is no excuse.

Wayne,

Don't you think that it would be interesting to hear from "Jeff Reynolds" just who he believes is credibly advancing the cause of finding the truth behind this worldwide CT issue since he has just about named everyone ever known to have posted on the subject as FAKES, according to his great insight anyway.

If JESUS were to post on the subject I'm sure that the new JR would find some reason to DEBUNK him / her as a FAKE.

Everyone knows that there is pure BULLSHIT all over the internet with regard to the CT issue but fortunately people who take the subject seriously have the common sense to ignore it as FS does, unlike the new JR who seems to relish wallowing in it and accusing everyone of being FAKES that are responsible for it_how sad is that?

Everyone knows the best way to avoid the BULLSHIT is to ignore it, that's why I have ignore listed Jeff Reynolds_ problem solved.

JESUS is LAUGHING. :D

[increase 1776]

Lou ,could you post a review about the Discovery Channel Show tonight so those of us on the left coast may be better informed? Thanks

[halva]

This, at least, is something worth talking about..

[Lou]

Lou ,could you post a review about the Discovery Channel Show tonight so those of us on the left coast may be better informed? Thanks


Absolutely. :D
_________


Originally scheduled for Feb 8th the "Chemical Contrails" Discovery Channel / Best Evidence Episode will be seen on Thursday February 22, 9:00 PM ET/PT. ( Check you're local listings )

Across the planet, millions of people have seen them — jet aircraft vapor trails lingering in the sky. Are these just regular "contrails" — the carbon and water vapor exhaust from commercial planes — or are they potentially toxic "chemical trails" emitted intentionally as part of secret geo-engineering experiments or weather-weaponization tests? Experts and passionate observers on both sides present their best evidence — from video and photographs, satellite imagery, soil samples and military evidence. We shed light on a subject that has many people looking up for answers to disturbing questions. A team of technicians at an independent laboratory will examine the samples to finally get to the heart of the question: What is in those fuel emissions and what causes them to linger for hours and link up with one another like a ghostly blanket that seems to affect the weather and perhaps our health?
___________________________________

This Discovery Channel "Chemical Contrails" Best Evidence episode will also air on February 23, at 1:00 AM ET/PT.

[Lou]

Well I just watched the Discovery Channel - Best Evidence program episode "Chemical Contrails" and it was as I thought it might be, pro and con from each side which was as fair and balanced as it could have been given the controversy of the subject.

The best thing about the program was as I predicted, the exposure of the issue to a wide audience of people who might otherwise not know anything about the Chemtrail issue but have questioned all of the strange contrails / Chemtrails that they have been seeing in our sky's for the past several years now.

All and all, the pro Chemtrail people interviewed in the program come across as genuinely sincere, the Government types on the other side of the issue come across as being deceitful, arrogant and part of the cover up of the spraying. (what you're tax dollars pay for.)

There is a segment on testing commercial jet fuel which I thought was skewed because it only dealt with one sample tested and no independent test by any lab was conducted, not that I believe that Chemtrail Spraying is due to fuel additives, I do not but I think the segment was very one sided and bias in it's presentation.

That's it for now, please watch it, it is interesting but nothing that we pro Chemtrail people do not know already.

[increase 1776]

Thanks Lou.What a slot,right after Bigfoot,but before Cattle Mutilations.The exposure can't hurt.

[CDsNuTz]

Interesting how the military said they wouldn't give them a test sample, I even said to my wife,"Well thats BS"...That and a single five gallon sample of "commercial jet fuel","Well thats BS"....Did anyone catch that airport??Was it Dearborn MI.?? Do they even have an International airport??Do you think there would be a difference in municiple and international fuels???

[Jeff Reynolds]

There is a segment on testing commercial jet fuel which I thought was skewed because it only dealt with one sample tested and no independent test by any lab was conducted, not that I believe that Chemtrail Spraying is due to fuel additives, I do not but I think the segment was very one sided and bias in it's presentation.

That's it for now, please watch it, it is interesting but nothing that we pro Chemtrail people do not know already.

People need to realize that there is no "we" as regards to chemtrail believers. Some of us are real, while the bulk of the posting is made by disinformation agents.

The study on the commercial jet fuel was brilliant in that it showed that ALL AIRCRAFT ARE NOT INVOLVED. It also made the case that chemtrails could be a result from additives put into jet fuel. The missing link is that the military wouldn't offer any of their jet fuel to be tested also with that state of the art equipment. It's strange how the BigBunny/ Chem11 fakes believe that all aircraft are involved. They are the disingenuous shitheads who point out that sulfur specifications are much lower for military than the commercial, but they only mention this sparingly, they'd rather have people thinking like Jay Reynolds that ALL AIRCRAFT ARE INVOLVED.

As for you Foot Soldier, your bullshit agenda has been exposed. Unless you want your character to go down in flames like a Jim Phelps, you ought to get on environmental and anti-aviation pollution forums. Otherwise it makes no friggin sense what you are doing here other than to spread some bullshit idea that all aircraft are involved, that chemtrails are contrails.

Even Lou seems to be in on the scam. He seems upset that there was only one sample of commercial fuel studied, and that only one lab did work on it. He doesn't seem to wonder why the military didn't offer its own fuel for testing.

Your a joke. Oops, I passed third grade grammar unlike yourself. YOU'RE A JOKE!!!!



Lou and the rest of them are fakes (http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/thread11699-15.html)

FUIwon'tDoWhatUTellMe,

Forgive me if I do not answer your rather long winded post but I'm out of this message board business, period, all done with the bogus infighting and name calling, etc...I have had enough of it as explained in my last post at the Gastronamus Cafe and Debater Both Sides, I see no need to do it again here...


Hey Lou, you should stick to your words and go away. Everyone knows you are well into the fake Halvar and Lord Spray Show with your J Vitum and your own long-winded threads throughout the years on Reynolds. So go do that project you were talking about with your Japanese mafia weatherwar buddy Scott Stevens. Better yet, maybe read some English grammar books you dumbass fake,

[Jeff Reynolds]

Interesting how the military said they wouldn't give them a test samplef

Not according to Lou, who didn't even mention that glaring point. But yeah, you are a right wingnut, a fucking redneck piece of shit with nothing of substance to offer other than lies and obfuscation as seen in your lame posts. By the way, if you ever tried to hurt me, I would do all I could in self defense to cripple you Mr. Rense Robot. So go to hell bitch!!!!!!

[CDsNuTz]

So go to hell bitch!!!!!!

You sound like some little 12 yr old saying that...Wow you are pathetic

[foot_soldier]

”Jeff Reynolds”,

I am not a “disinformation agent.” I do not have an “agenda.”

I have been looking at the ongoing crappification of our skies within a context that consistently includes a number of factors which I believe to be connected. I am trying to share that process and to provide continuity of information on certain issues that I think are important to an understanding of the big picture.

Your repeated misrepresentation of my position is uncalled for to say the least.

[Jeff Reynolds]

”Jeff Reynolds”,

I am not a “disinformation agent.” I do not have an “agenda.”

I have been looking at the ongoing crappification of our skies within a context that consistently includes a number of factors which I believe to be connected. I am trying to share that process and to provide continuity of information on certain issues that I think are important to an understanding of the big picture.

Your repeated misrepresentation of my position is uncalled for to say the least.

Then get the fuck off of chemtrail forums or don't present yourself as anything more than a copy and paster who supports the bullshit Megasprayer propaganda that ALL AIRCRAFT ARE INVOLVED.

On the Discovery Channel the commercial jet fuel came out normal. Big Bunny and Chem11 keep astroturfing that all aircraft are involved. You certainly do have an agenda or are one of the most epic useful idiots of all time. You are nothing but a copy and paste appendage to Lord Reynolds.

[CDsNuTz]

You know they've got meds for your type of sickness, right socrates...

[Jeff Reynolds]

You know they've got meds for your type of sickness, right socrates...

Yeah it's called ignore the trolls. You were all exposed. It looks like you won't be getting any of that disinfo bonus cash.

I always wondered why Swamp would associate with right wing fascists like you, Mech, and Tinfoil. Now I know it is because you are paid fakes from a Rendon Group type company.

No bonus for you girl. Plus, you will be going to hell, you bitch loser with no soul.

[CDsNuTz]

I'm still laughing you know....

[foot_soldier]

"Jeff Reynolds",

Why don't you at least direct your criticism at what I actually post if you disagree with it instead of flaming me for what other people think?

I find it possible to function in groups where people don't necessarily agree with each other on everything. There is quite a bit of healthy disagreement on science forums, for example, but that is part of the process of solving a problem.

You certainly sound like someone who is used to having his own way.

[halva]

"Jeff Reynolds",

Why don't you at least direct your criticism at what I actually post if you disagree with it instead of flaming me for what other people think?

I find it possible to function in groups where people don't necessarily agree with each other on everything. There is quite a bit of healthy disagreement on science forums, for example, but that is part of the process of solving a problem.

You certainly sound like someone who is used to having his own way.

But Mommy is dead now. Are you applying to take over the role, Footsoldier?

[foot_soldier]

That's a very tasteless comment, Wayne.

This thread has gone to hell anyway, however, so why don't you guys all just finish it off?

[CDsNuTz]

But Mommy is dead now. Are you applying to take over the role, Footsoldier?


WTF?!?! Halva you lend no credence to the cause with comments like that..Go back to sleep please...

[CDsNuTz]

But Mommy is dead now. Are you applying to take over the role, Footsoldier?


If that's a glimpse of the type of humor we can expect from Greece, please stay in there..

[Jeff Reynolds]

Thanks CD and Foot Soldier for showing some humanity towards someone who has been going after you guys. I wish to stop the hostilities. We have made our points and there is no where to go with this anymore. If I continue with my "fakes" strategy, I will talk generically and keep the hostilities out of it. It's karma, and there has to be a way to stop it.

We all have families. I have reported Halva and believe he should be banned for whatever amount they ban for this type of offense. It really opens my eyes to have hope when even my enemies can show a bit of humanity towards me. So olive branch time. I do not want to interact with you two about chemtrails because I don't trust either of you, as you, I.

I will say before I nod off, there were two other things that stood out to me about the show tonight. One, that the believers and debunkers both agreed on the harmful effects of aviation emissions. \
Secondly, the show seemed to be too focussed in on global warming. If I am not mistaken, there was no talk about holes in the ozone layer, which to me makes more sense than spraying for global warming. Nopt that I don't think they could be learning the same type of stuff and apply it later into the stratosphere, but blocking out uv-b radiation makes the most sense to me for why we are being sprayed. It's too low, it's around the sun. They do it at night which warms us, and even if during the day, there is still a net warming effect. I believe it was telling that there hasn't been one show on this before today. I think it is telling that the commercial jet fuel passed the test. I think it is telling that the military jet fuel is off-limits to test. I think it is telling that there was no mention of the ozone hole problem.

But thanks to my "enemies" here for showing some humanity towards me. It kind of makes it easier for me to back off and try to end the bad karma. If they don't ban Halva though all bets are off. I will go after him relentlessly. I will find Greek friends and investigate this guy. As Lou said once before, he was happy he wasn't on my shit list. Cause it is like Bob Dylan said, when you got nothing, you got nothing to lose, and I for one will seek out truth and justice til the end. We all need to elevate ourselves like Steve Biko did, yes like Socrates did, like Lady Di, Paul Wellstone, MLK, Mother Theresa, Curt Schilling, oops, not curt schilling. peace.

[Jeff Reynolds]

I realize night spraying might seem shady if it's to block out uv b rays, but I also think they do it at night, early am, pm to do it when most aren't gonna be seeing it happening. I also think they might be trying to accelerate the global warming, so they do it at night. The night is the worst time to do it, traps all that heat in. But I definitely think that it's got nothing to do with commercial aircraft, talking chemtrails, and it is mostly being done around the sun. This is going to come out. I just want people to realize that these are two separate issues, chemtrails and contrails, both important, but with all these chemtrail boards seemingly infiltrated by fakes, it is too easy for the newbie to pass this off as tinfoil.

This is why there is all that chembusting crap. That's why you got crazy forums like Rigorous Intuition and Chemtrail Central. How can those not be infiltrated by fakes and not be considered as part and parcel of some tinfoil by association strategy?

[halva]

WTF?!?! Halva you lend no credence to the cause with comments like that..Go back to sleep please...

I will continue to make comments that correspond to my objectives. I didn't evict Mrs. Footsoldier Reynolds' wife-beating husband in order merely to make way for her shin-kicking brat Junior Reynolds.

What I have to ask Footsoldier is this: what is the way to secure a better theoretical level of debate: to talk with me and have Socrates/Jeff Reynolds listening in, or to talk with him and have me listening in?

You make your choice and you get what you ask for. It is no excuse to say that the climate here has already gone to hell anyway. You chose to join it in its hellish state, Footsoldier, just as you chose not to engage in discussion with me before it had arrived in that state (again).

[halva]

We all have families. I have reported Halva and believe he should be banned for whatever amount they ban for this type of offense. It really opens my eyes to have hope when even my enemies can show a bit of humanity towards me. So olive branch time. I do not want to interact with you two about chemtrails because I don't trust either of you, as you, I.

............

IBut thanks to my "enemies" here for showing some humanity towards me. It kind of makes it easier for me to back off and try to end the bad karma. If they don't ban Halva though all bets are off. I will go after him relentlessly. I will find Greek friends and investigate this guy. As Lou said once before, he was happy he wasn't on my shit list.


Quite frankly I see no difference between George Bush's foreign policy and Socrates/Jeff Reynolds'.

Will young Jeff succeed where Uncle Jay failed?

Not that old Jay ever sought to have me banned. He relied (relies?) on himself.

[Big Bunny]

Well, Socrates, this has all been very enlightening. So when are you going to come out of the closet?

[Lou]

This place use to be just a pit, now it's risen to the level of a zoo but someone should shovel the Jeff Reynolds off of the floor,...man,... it stinks in here,.....Ha ! :D

[halva]

This place use to be just a pit, now it's risen to the level of a zoo but someone should shovel the Jeff Reynolds off of the floor,...man,... it stinks in here,.....Ha ! :D

We can't shove him off the floor. Only the moderators can do that, and they have just taken his side, just as they always took the side of Uncle Jay, except once, after ferocious pressure and to a very limited extent, so that he was obliged to erase personal information (surname) he had posted on Footsoldier.

They didn't take Jeff Reynolds' side completely, just as they didn't take Footsoldier's side completely.

[Lou]

We can't shove him off the floor. Only the moderators can do that, and they have just taken his side, just as they always took the side of Uncle Jay, except once, after ferocious pressure and to a very limited extent, so that he was obliged to erase personal information (surname) he had posted on Footsoldier.

They didn't take Jeff Reynolds' side completely, just as they didn't take Footsoldier's side completely.

Wayne,

I was just offering up a little sarcasm with regard to the crap the new JR is shoveling on everyone, it was nothing serious, how can you actually take a nut case like him seriously. I have him ignore listed so he can rant until his teeth fall out, makes no difference to me. :D

Moving on.

What do you think of Brian's new webpage?

http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/spreading.html

[halva]

Great. I will study that this weekend. They are good questions.

[halva]

Brian Holmes says that he is planning to do a "review of reviews" to gauge the extent of penetration of the mainstream by the Discovery Channel programme.

[Jeff Reynolds]

This place along with Carnicoms, Megasprayer, Chemtrail Central, Gastronamus et al are full of fakes trying to manipulate/ astroturf tinfoil by asscoiation, chemtrails are contrails, etc..

Here is a crosspost showing yet again how Foot Soldier is in the forefront of these attempts at manipulation. Since she uses this thread in particular for her fudging of chemtrails with contrails, I have crossposted from my own thread on the chemtrail forum fakes.

The Astroturfing Disinfo Became too Obvious (http://www.debatebothsides.com/showpost.php?p=756342&postcount=69)

[halva]

You are an incorrigible idiot who deserves the obscurity and ill-repute that is your destiny.

[foot_soldier]

March 4, 2007
BA and Virgin knock open sky deal
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6417277.stm

British Airways and Virgin Atlantic have criticised a new "open skies" deal between the European Union and US that aims to open up their airline markets.

British Airways said the deal was not good for UK aviation, while Virgin called it a missed opportunity.

On Friday and after years of failed talks, the EU and US said that they had made decisive progress and managed to get the outline of a new agreement.

The transatlantic airline market is worth some $18bn (£9.3bn).

According to the EU, a new deal would boost transatlantic passenger numbers by 26 million, create 80,000 jobs, and provide 12bn euros (£8.1bn) of economic benefits.

Fair balance?

The worry for many critics is that the deal favours US carriers, and that companies such as British Airways and Virgin would have to give up valuable prime-time landing and take-off slots at Heathrow airport.

British Airways said it would be looking to lobby on the issue and would put forward its point of view that the deal "is not good for UK aviation"..... (continued)

March 2, 2007
EU and US outline open skies deal
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6413315.stm

The European Union and the US have taken a significant step towards a deal that would open up their airline industries to increased competition.

Talks have been going on for a number of years but have always foundered on concerns it would prompt trans-Atlantic mergers and hurt security and jobs.

A last round of negotiations stalled in December, though talks have continued.

EU transport commissioner Jacques Barrot said that negotiators had made "decisive progress" in talks on Friday.

'Major breakthrough'

The EU and the US have reached a provisional deal that still needs to be approved by transport ministers, but it sets up the deregulation of a trans-Atlantic airline market that is worth some $18bn (£9.3bn).

According to Brussels, an "open skies" agreement would boost trans-Atlantic passenger numbers by 26 million, create 80,000 jobs, and provide 12bn euros (£8.1bn) of economic benefits.

Should it be approved at a meeting of ministers on 22 March then the agreement would be in place from 28 October.

"This can be considered a major breakthrough," said Michele Cercone, spokesman for Commissioner Barrot.

Under the terms of the agreement, European airlines would be allowed to make trans-Atlantic flights from any nation and not just their home country.

The deal would also open up Heathrow so that a greater number of airlines could land and take off from the London airport..... (continued)

[halva]

The only advantage to this aviation emissions issue is that both sides are in the public domain and the clash of vested interests is open and visible.

None of this applies with "chemtrails".

Nor does it apply in the climate change 'debate', Activists and climate scientists either adopt a loftily dismissive attitude towards the "sceptics" or talk about who is paying them.

I was speaking to a key Greek climate scientist today about the now long-standing project to get Crutzen into an open public discussion. The climate scientist told us that to do this was to give Crutzen publicity and credibility that he does not deserve. Anyone would think that Crutzen is starved for publicity or that he is actively seeking open public discussion. This is not true and the scientist concerned knows that it is not true. How has it become possible for scientists to get like this?

There is a story about Nasreddin Hodja, the character of Turkish folk tales, who was found one night in the street by one of his friends searching around outside a lighted shop window whose illumination fell onto the street. 'What are you doing Nasreddin', asked his friend. 'I dropped my house keys and I am looking for them,' said Nasreddin. 'Where were you when you noticed they were missing?' the friend asked. 'Over there near the well,' said Nasreddin, pointing to a spot in the darkness about fifty yards away. 'Why, then, are you searching here near the shop window?' asked the friend. 'It's pitch black over there near the well,' said Nasreddin. 'You can't see a thing.'

[Lou]

http://www.newswithviews.com/public_comm/public_commentary47.htm

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL CHEMTRAIL COVERAGE

By Dr. Stephen C. L'Hommedieu, D.C.
March 4, 2007
NewsWithViews.com

Saturday evening I was able to sit back and watch the Discovery channel chemtrail coverage originally presented on Thursday evening. With previous news of the upcoming broadcast I pondered what slant would be used to obscure the public’s understanding to what these really are. Sure enough, I wasn’t disappointed.

Immediately the deception began by directing the emphasis of the presentation to a faulty concept of an aluminum component present in commercial jet fuel. This ‘scientific investigation’ appeared very impressive on the surface. It seemed as if they were actually determined to go all-out to solve this chemtrail ‘mystery.’ Armed with $1M in research equipment to ‘sniff’ out the chemical culprits thought to be secretly hidden in commercial jet fuel; predictably, they found nothing. I suspect even the researchers knew they wouldn’t find anything in the commercial jet fuel because even I knew they wouldn’t. However, I did find it interesting that the military refused to provide a sample of their jet fuel for testing. Suggestive that something is obviously going on.

The material for this ‘investigation’ presented by the ‘Not to Discover’ channel was just as you would expect from a controlled media production. They presented carefully selected material arranged into a purposely crafted design. They started with an easily dismantled, implausible and ridiculous hypothesis from a collection of amateur opinions on chemtrails. The investigation then set the stage for discarding the validity of chemtrails from this bogus hypothesis. This is the kind of bad ‘science’ commonly implemented to dismantle any information that gets too close to the truth. It’s called discrediting.

Patrick Minnis, the senior researcher at the NASA Langley Research Center, provided the typical disparaging analysis that you would expect from insiders involved with a cover-up. For instance, he described Rosalind Peterson’s carefully documented findings and descriptions of these chemtrails as particularly creative and imaginative. The Discovery Channel announcer went on to emphasize where Minnis sees clouds and contrails, Peterson sees these chemtrails. Then to solidify the uncertainty necessary to obscure the truth, Minnis claimed that “the notion of chemtrails is ludicrous,” and continued with “it appears no one seems to agree on what these are other than they’re not contrails.” Well then, what are they? Would Minnis actually provide a thorough and scientific explanation to the question presented?

Unfortunately, the only answer extracted out of Minnis, an authority on the subject, was “there must be an explanation for each of Peterson’s photographs.” Thank you sir; yes, we already realize that. But again, the question is what exactly are they? Curiously, he didn’t bother to indulge us any further on this important topic to set all of us straight. Naturally!

Frankly, I am astounded that Minnis believes all of us have the stomach to swallow this garbage. I’m a highly skilled alternative health care practitioner and therefore can almost always provide on-target possibilities into the cause of complicated health disorders. So what’s his problem in his area of expertise? Possibly a conflict of interest?

But then we get some bits of the truth mixed with a measure of inconsistency. Journalist, William Thomas acknowledges these are not normal contrails and provides good examples of many detrimental health related incidents associated with the presence of chemtrails. However, he mistakenly believes it is entirely being used to slow down global warming when in fact it is probably a major contributing factor to the cause of our ‘global warming’ altered weather patterns. This altering of the weather plays other valuable roles within the not-so-secret agenda that he may or may not be aware of.

I can certainly verify the detrimental health affects from chemtrails in my practice. I see many patients, especially children that appear to be suffering symptoms of irritability, unusual periods of uncontrolled behavior, allergies, asthma, or infection. Instead, I find their symptoms to be a direct result of the heavy metal poisoning they have been exposed to from chemtrail activity. This ALWAYS occurs when chemtrail aerosoling is at high levels. To the amazement of the parents I give their children what they require for the toxic metals indicated and the symptoms magically disappear. Now they have begun to notice when their children spend more time outside when heavy chemtrail overcast is present these kids begin developing symptoms the next day or even the same day. Of course, skeptics will attribute this to the power of suggestion. For these people I usually recommend continued heavy doses of ignorance to maintain their comfort zones since the ability to recognize observable details repeated with 100% accuracy may be too overwhelming.

Dr. Wayne Evens, atmospheric scientist, actually hit the nail on the head when he said that these chemtrails are acting as cirrus cloud formations that radiate more heat energy to the earth rather than reflecting solar energy back into space as do normal clouds. Did any one happen to notice how warm it was last spring even when temperatures were only in the 80’s, never mind the entire summer? The intended disappointment was that his land-based spectrometer did not reveal the materials being