About Ingrid

[Ingrid]

Ellena is first person to question authenticity of small blonde from Sweden. This is on record, however her accusal of identity pointed to some person of name Michael Feinberg. Jack was next person to dispute, although there appeared to be some flirtation to this. :) Third person was Syd, who asked if small blonde "was for real." Then sixty or seventy more disputed, and then angry cat announced he was genius for thinking of idea. After twenty or thirty more posters questioned authenticity of small blonde, Gerry announced she was forum genius, for detecting lack of Swedishness in posts.

Idea that Gerry has "detected linguistic irregularity" is funniest thing posted on forum in short time I have posted to it. This is very simliar to noticing moon is in sky, and not growing from wheat field. Also, notion that 'reason for ruse' is important is absurd notion, that bears no merit. Only what has been posted is of consequence, and all things such as "God is Love" or "Jews do not control media" are 100% true. No person has shown good argument to simple facts, and is always mistake to think anonymous poster to internet will be next girlfriend. If not, Mykel's dance card would be full until next November.

Events have taken many bizarre turns since first posting. Most amazing is that somehow integrity of Sweet Caroline and Austin have in some way come into question! This would seem like cruel nightmare, if only due to strong surrealism behind. And now, most important thing is bigotry aimed at people of Sweden.

We are sorry that sometimes our fish do not smell so good. Is considered great delicasy in my home country, and if you find offensive, then maybe you should not be eating our meatballs either. As for who is skinny, body of small blonde is not perfect, but is very toned, and strong. Many burly men who think themselves superior have felt levels of pain only imagined before challenging small blonde to various physical contests.

[Reality Check]

I think it's (the) Surreal Lack of (the) word "the" in all of (the) posts.

[April15]

Ingrid,
it is sad that people question your philosophy. It is refreshing.

[Sweet Caroline]

I think it's (the) Surreal Lack of (the) word "the" in all of (the) posts.

Time for a reality check. In fact, Ingrid has posts with the word the.

[Reality Check]

Time for a reality check. In fact, Ingrid has posts with the word the.I think you get my point. I hope so anyway.

Notice the word "THE" does not appear once in the above post.

Having known Swedish people most of my life, all of them know how to use (the) word (the) correctly.

[Michael McGonagle]

then maybe you should not be eating our meatballs either.

My mom (who was German) made a MEAN batch of Swedish Meatballs. When I was in the Navy, I had the opportunity to visit Copenhagen, and was treated to a lunch at the local Mayor's (if that is the right title) office. They brought out some Swedish Meatballs, and the first thing I thought was that my mother was in the kitchen...

I loves dem Svedish Meatball, they may not be "spicy", but they sure do make you feel that you have eaten a substantial meal. (unlike most American food)

[ellena]

Your english is improving. Dramatically.

Are you in New York? Why ask? Welll, obviously

You
just adore a penthouse view...dahling I love you but give me Park Avenue!

The chores!
The stores!
Fresh Air!
Times Square!
etc.

[Neurobürger]

Events have taken many bizarre turns since first posting. Most amazing is that somehow integrity of Sweet Caroline and Austin have in some way come into question! This would seem like cruel nightmare, if only due to strong surrealism behind. And now, most important thing is bigotry aimed at people of Sweden.



's a little like that old 'twilight zone' episode (one of my favorites), "martians on main street"

"The Swedish are coming! The Swedish are coming!"

- Grampa Simpson when the 'rest home' changed his meds. again.

[Syd]

My mom (who was German) made a MEAN batch of Swedish Meatballs. When I was in the Navy, I had the opportunity to visit Copenhagen, and was treated to a lunch at the local Mayor's (if that is the right title) office. They brought out some Swedish Meatballs, and the first thing I thought was that my mother was in the kitchen...

I loves dem Svedish Meatball, they may not be "spicy", but they sure do make you feel that you have eaten a substantial meal. (unlike most American food)

I know it's off topic, but my mom used to make Swedish meatballs too. She got the recipe from someone and we used to love when she would make them. I should ask her (or maybe we could ask Ingrid) for the recipe. They didn't taste anything like Italian meatballs and were very thick and had an unusual flavor, but they were really great.

[Ingrid]

I know it's off topic, but my mom used to make Swedish meatballs too. She got the recipe from someone and we used to love when she would make them. I should ask her (or maybe we could ask Ingrid) for the recipe. They didn't taste anything like Italian meatballs and were very thick and had an unusual flavor, but they were really great.
Köttbullar

Unlike large meatballs in sweet and sour sauce which are often called Swedish by person who knows little of Sweden, genuine köttbullar are small meatballs served with alone or with thin pan gravy and traditionally accompanied by tart, red lingonberries or lingonberry preserves. Preserves are better, I think.


Serves 4 to 6; Yields two to three dozen meatballs

1/3 cup finely-ground plain breadcrumbs
1/3 cup milk (skim, okay)
1 small yellow onion
1 egg (or egg white)
1 and 1/3 pounds lean ground beef
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/8 teaspoon pepper
1/4 teaspoon allspice
1 tablespoon butter and 1 tablespoon canola oil

For pan gravy:
Butter as needed, up to 1 tablespoon
1 tablespoon all-purpose flour
1 cup beef stock

Lingonberry preserves.

Soak bread crumbs in milk for 5 to10 minutes until liquid is absorbed. Peel and quarter onion. Finely dice onion. Add egg, meat, soaked bread crumbs and seasonings. Pulse until thoroughly blended.

Shape meat mixture into small balls, less than inch in diameter; if the mixture sticks to hands, wet them with cold water. Heat the frying pan and add butter and oil. Saute meatballs in 2 or 3 batches, shaking pan frequently to keep meatballs from sticking. Drain on paper towels and keep warm.

Alternatively, meatballs can be placed on greased or non-stick broiler pan or rimmed cookie sheet. Broil for several minutes, then drain on paper towels. Use other, deeper pan for gravy. To make pan gravy, scrape off and discard any browned bits of meat that may be sticking to pan after meatballs are done. (If less than 1 Tablespoon fat remaining in pan, add butter to compensate.) Add flour, stirring with fork until brown. Quickly add stock and bring to boil, stirring constantly with fork or whisk, until gravy thickens. Remove from heat and serve immediately with meatballs.

[Syd]

Köttbullar

Unlike large meatballs in sweet and sour sauce which are often called Swedish by person who knows little of Sweden, genuine köttbullar are small meatballs served with alone or with thin pan gravy and traditionally accompanied by tart, red lingonberries or lingonberry preserves. Preserves are better, I think.


Serves 4 to 6; Yields two to three dozen meatballs

1/3 cup finely-ground plain breadcrumbs
1/3 cup milk (skim, okay)
1 small yellow onion
1 egg (or egg white)
1 and 1/3 pounds lean ground beef
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/8 teaspoon pepper
1/4 teaspoon allspice
1 tablespoon butter and 1 tablespoon canola oil

For pan gravy:
Butter as needed, up to 1 tablespoon
1 tablespoon all-purpose flour
1 cup beef stock

Lingonberry preserves.

Soak bread crumbs in milk for 5 to10 minutes until liquid is absorbed. Peel and quarter onion. Finely dice onion. Add egg, meat, soaked bread crumbs and seasonings. Pulse until thoroughly blended.

Shape meat mixture into small balls, less than inch in diameter; if the mixture sticks to hands, wet them with cold water. Heat the frying pan and add butter and oil. Saute meatballs in 2 or 3 batches, shaking pan frequently to keep meatballs from sticking. Drain on paper towels and keep warm.

Alternatively, meatballs can be placed on greased or non-stick broiler pan or rimmed cookie sheet. Broil for several minutes, then drain on paper towels. Use other, deeper pan for gravy. To make pan gravy, scrape off and discard any browned bits of meat that may be sticking to pan after meatballs are done. (If less than 1 Tablespoon fat remaining in pan, add butter to compensate.) Add flour, stirring with fork until brown. Quickly add stock and bring to boil, stirring constantly with fork or whisk, until gravy thickens. Remove from heat and serve immediately with meatballs.

This is rich......Ingrid is now giving us Swedish recipes. This truly is surreal....

BTW, thanks for (the) recipe dahling..... :)

[Ingrid]

This is rich......Ingrid is now giving us Swedish recipes. This truly is surreal....

BTW, thanks for (the) recipe dahling..... :)
Is good recipe too! You will not be disappointed.

[Syd]

Is good recipe too! You will not be disappointed.

And I will try it too. Always I like new recipes... :)

[Whitey]

Ingrid,
it is sad that people question your philosophy. It is refreshing.
:) :D :lol: It's refreshing that people question your philosophy. It is sad. :cool:

Caveat Lector

[ellena]

it'sa philosophical question whether you're refereshing or sad.

i don't see no sour cream in that svedish reinedermeatball recipe...

[Gerry]

it'sa philosophical question whether you're refereshing or sad.

i don't see no sour cream in that svedish reinedermeatball recipe...

Sourcream !!! THAT's the real Swedish and Danish thing.

[ellena]

Sourcream !!! THAT's the real Swedish and Danish thing.

Only according to Grandma Fredrickson and Great Grandma Gustavson. What the hell did they know? LOL!

[cyberguy]

LOL this is too funny! I for one like Ingrid the Swedish bombshell even if her first response to me was to call me "the rude cyberguy".

[Jay_Esbe]

Ellena is first person to question authenticity of small blonde from Sweden. This is on record, however her accusal of identity pointed to some person of name Michael Feinberg. Jack was next person to dispute, although there appeared to be some flirtation to this. :) Third person was Syd, who asked if small blonde "was for real." Then sixty or seventy more disputed, and then angry cat announced he was genius for thinking of idea. After twenty or thirty more posters questioned authenticity of small blonde, Gerry announced she was forum genius, for detecting lack of Swedishness in posts.

Idea that Gerry has "detected linguistic irregularity" is funniest thing posted on forum in short time I have posted to it. This is very simliar to noticing moon is in sky, and not growing from wheat field. Also, notion that 'reason for ruse' is important is absurd notion, that bears no merit. Only what has been posted is of consequence, and all things such as "God is Love" or "Jews do not control media" are 100% true. No person has shown good argument to simple facts, and is always mistake to think anonymous poster to internet will be next girlfriend. If not, Mykel's dance card would be full until next November.

Events have taken many bizarre turns since first posting. Most amazing is that somehow integrity of Sweet Caroline and Austin have in some way come into question! This would seem like cruel nightmare, if only due to strong surrealism behind. And now, most important thing is bigotry aimed at people of Sweden.

We are sorry that sometimes our fish do not smell so good. Is considered great delicasy in my home country, and if you find offensive, then maybe you should not be eating our meatballs either. As for who is skinny, body of small blonde is not perfect, but is very toned, and strong. Many burly men who think themselves superior have felt levels of pain only imagined before challenging small blonde to various physical contests.


Large hairy man not understand. But I am just an unfrozen cave-man Bush-basher, I find your world strange and frightening, your small blond attract me like hyena to rotted meat on fire. Even unfrozen cave man skepticle, but might be convince if small blond has fish, or send large hairy man summer photo without loin cloth.

[Syd]

Large hairy man not understand. But I am just an unfrozen cave-man Bush-basher, I find your world strange and frightening, your small blond attract me like hyena to rotted meat on fire. Even unfrozen cave man skepticle, but might be convince if small blond has fish, or send large hairy man summer photo without loin cloth.

Hey, Esbe, I was wondering when we were going to hear from you.... :D

[Reality Check]

Someone here please find me an Ingrid post where she uses the word "it" before the word "is".

No "the"s to be found yet.

Ingrid, do you have MS Word? The grammar checker can solve your problem.

[Bubba]

... and is always mistake to think anonymous poster to internet will be next girlfriend. If not, Mykel's dance card would be full until next November.

As for who is skinny, body of small blonde is not perfect, but is very toned, and strong. Many burly men who think themselves superior have felt levels of pain only imagined before challenging small blonde to various physical contests.

Mykel? He's GAY !

What you need is strong heterosexual stud like BUBBA who will keep a smile on your face until morning, and then keep that smile on your face through the day with the memory.

This burly man doesn't think himself superior to a small blonde girl, but as an equal who's physical challenge is of comfort and pleasure, not pain.

[mickey]

Mykel? He's GAY !

What you need is strong heterosexual stud like BUBBA who will keep a smile on your face until morning, and then keep that smile on your face through the day with the memory.

This burly man doesn't think himself superior to a small blonde girl, but as an equal who's physical challenge is of comfort and pleasure, not pain.I think BUBBA and Ingrid should go out on a blind date. What do you think, Gerry?

[Gerry]

I think BUBBA and Ingrid should go out on a blind date. What do you think, Gerry?

I wouldn't put Bubba's life in danger at this pouint. Not knowing what THE Ingrid might do.
LOL

[Sweet Caroline]

Reality Check, I was wrong about the word the. I had seen posts with the article a. If there are any with the I don't know about them. I apologize. I should have posted as soon as I discovered I was wrong. I just got busy and forgot about it. Sorry.

[Reality Check]

Reality Check, I was wrong about the word the. I had seen posts with the article a. If there are any with the I don't know about them. I apologize. I should have posted as soon as I discovered I was wrong. I just got busy and forgot about it. Sorry.
No prob. I was just toyin witcha. Cheers!
Ingrid may be for real, I don't care. But something is smelly. Must be the Lutefisk!

[KimKat]

I admit to not having been around much, but

WHO GIVES A DAMN IF INGRID IS FOR REAL?

Why is there a whole post devoted to her? Oh....because she started it.

You know, you can post a picture of anyone you want for your avatar. I could get a zillion Swedish meatball recipes off the internet. And I could probably do a real good Ava Gabor imitation if I put my mind to it.

It's the internet(s)....you can be anybody you want to be.

ellena and syd, why do you think she's bogus?

[Syd]

I admit to not having been around much, but

WHO GIVES A DAMN IF INGRID IS FOR REAL?

Why is there a whole post devoted to her? Oh....because she started it.

You know, you can post a picture of anyone you want for your avatar. I could get a zillion Swedish meatball recipes off the internet. And I could probably do a real good Ava Gabor imitation if I put my mind to it.

It's the internet(s)....you can be anybody you want to be.

ellena and syd, why do you think she's bogus?

I really wish Ingrid were for real but my gut tells me Gerry's right and that Ellena was right too, that she's probably a made-up persona. FABWC???? Got me. It's hard to imagine someone who seems like such an angry person as he is taking on the persona of someone who seems so placid and kind-hearted, but then again, you never know. If you really look at her (?) posts, they just don't ring true. I realize that it doesn't really matter but when someone seems so obviously fake, it's hard not to point it out....plus, if you read Gerry's posts, it appears as if FABWC admitted to it. Vat chu tink, dahling????

[Tayken]

How about if we think of Ingrid as being a character of the nature of Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny? She hasn't insulted anybody, and hasn't played extremist politics. For those of us who would like to fantasize, how about giving us a break?

[Syd]

How about if we think of Ingrid as being a character of the nature of Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny? She hasn't insulted anybody, and hasn't played extremist politics. For those of us who would like to fantasize, how about giving us a break?

Why not.......you can dream, can't you??? :D :D

[Ingrid]

Always I am who I am. Question for all posters is simply "are you who are you?"

[Syd]

Always I am who I am. Question for all posters is simply "are you who are you?"

Ingrid, Ingrid, Ingrid.....just when we get used to thinking of you as Natasha, you start sounding like Popeye...... :D

[Ingrid]

Ingrid, Ingrid, Ingrid.....just when we get used to thinking of you as Natasha, you start sounding like Popeye...... :D
This is sailor with big forearms who gets special power from yams?

[Syd]

This is sailor with big forearms who gets special power from yams?

No......definitely not a sailor, definitely not big forearms and no special powers. Always, I yust am making observation about small Svedish girl with Swedish meatball recipes from Sweden...

[Neurobürger]

How about if we think of Ingrid as being a character of the nature of Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny? She hasn't insulted anybody, and hasn't played extremist politics. For those of us who would like to fantasize, how about giving us a break?



yeah, indeed. who really gives a hairy rodent's ass?

maybe i'm not really some bolshie, but in fact a black-sheep scion of the Forbes family

maybe ROOFDOG is the secret communist, and bubba and bert are actually agents of the mossad

even if ingrid were proven to be george foreman, i'd still laugh at the pollyanna peace love and hemmorhoids (as you're being reamed by the oligarchy) nonsense. but hey, that's just me....maybe i can see things a little better from my lofty perch atop the ill-gotten fortune of my family....(heh)

on the other hand, we could all just be figments - side effects, if you will, of one of the commandante's 'benders'....

think about it.


until the 'truth' comes out (whatever that is), i'll always picture ingird thusly:

http://pcs.linuxkidd.com/Wallpaper/Cartoons/ATHF_-_Carl.jpg

[Jack]

If any sentence will put me on the side of the posters that say Ingrid is F+B, it's this one.

" This is very similar to noticing moon is in sky, and not growing from wheat field."

Now I don't claim Ingrid is F+B, and don't really care, but remembering that he claimed that he is a Writer, and only a Writer would use such language and phraseology in his writings.
Just my two-cents worth.


Two cents, who's copper hues remind me of the twin globes, slowly circling the orbit of the desert planet Mars. In his shadow, but always there, only making their appearence know when sunlight imbues them in it's warm glow. The God of War and Devastation, overlooking our Planet Earth.

LOLOLOLOLOLLOLOL

[Tim]

I have observed several posts that refer to Ingrid/F&BWC as a "writer." I have also received a PM that says he is a clerk at a loan company.

Which is it?

[ellena]

This is sailor with big forearms who gets special power from yams?
Spinach, Inkie.

[Fritz the Cat]

Works at a loan company. Owns a photography studio. Has written a few published book (one of which I have read). And strums his own guitar for a hobby.

Wanna know his real name and address?

Now way, you can torture me and I won't post anyon'es personal information to you band of mental patients. You are all mostly dangerous.

[Tayken]

yeah, indeed. who really gives a hairy rodent's ass?

maybe i'm not really some bolshie, but in fact a black-sheep scion of the Forbes family

maybe ROOFDOG is the secret communist, and bubba and bert are actually agents of the mossad

even if ingrid were proven to be george foreman, i'd still laugh at the pollyanna peace love and hemmorhoids (as you're being reamed by the oligarchy) nonsense. but hey, that's just me....maybe i can see things a little better from my lofty perch atop the ill-gotten fortune of my family....(heh)

on the other hand, we could all just be figments - side effects, if you will, of one of the commandante's 'benders'....

think about it.


until the 'truth' comes out (whatever that is), i'll always picture ingird thusly:

http://pcs.linuxkidd.com/Wallpaper/Cartoons/ATHF_-_Carl.jpg

Now why did you go and post a picture of Esbe?

[Neurobürger]

hey G

that's Carl Broutanowski, comic foil and unfortunate neighbor of the crime-fighting trio "Aqua Teen Hunger Force"

any resemblance to AO posters is probably purely coincidental.

http://www.lazyass3k.com/athf/mycaps/athf.jpg

[Ingrid]

Spinach, Inkie.
Yams are joke. First I post "I am who I am, are you who are you?" Syd asks if I am Popeye. Popeye always is to say "I yam what I yam." Now you see yam joke, and wonder if small blonde has lost mind. This is normal reaction! :)

[Ingrid]

yeah, indeed. who really gives a hairy rodent's ass?

maybe i'm not really some bolshie, but in fact a black-sheep scion of the Forbes family

maybe ROOFDOG is the secret communist, and bubba and bert are actually agents of the mossad

even if ingrid were proven to be george foreman, i'd still laugh at the pollyanna peace love and hemmorhoids (as you're being reamed by the oligarchy) nonsense. but hey, that's just me....maybe i can see things a little better from my lofty perch atop the ill-gotten fortune of my family....(heh)

on the other hand, we could all just be figments - side effects, if you will, of one of the commandante's 'benders'....

think about it.


until the 'truth' comes out (whatever that is), i'll always picture ingird thusly:

http://pcs.linuxkidd.com/Wallpaper/Cartoons/ATHF_-_Carl.jpg
Always you have misrepresented look and ideology behind small blonde. I have said only Love all of God's children, and heart will be whole. This is not polyanna nonsense or unrealistic in any way. This is truth. This is force of nature bigger than book or manifesto. Never have I said "allow others to steal your freedoms." This is misinterpretation of laziness of thought. Running up escalator is waste of energy. Escalator takes you to top with no effort.

[Bubba]

Yams are joke. First I post "I am who I am, are you who are you?" Syd asks if I am Popeye. Popeye always is to say "I yam what I yam." Now you see yam joke, and wonder if small blonde has lost mind. This is normal reaction! :)
OK. But it wasn't funny!


:mrgreen:

[Ingrid]

OK. But it wasn't funny!


:mrgreen:
Surely you know always humor is subjective. What causes laughter in one person may cause only stifled yawn in other person. Large font doesn't make joke any less funny.

[Dingo]

bubba and bert are actually agents of the mossad Admit it Neuro. You got that idea from me. :idea:

[Neurobürger]

say dingo, i'll give you props for that, but mind ye; i've always been a bit paranoid - at least since myearly 20s when i was first introduced to machiavelli (and robert anton wilson didnt help, but i got over that)

ingrid whoever you are, i'll admit that at first i thought you might be michael fineberg or something, i think it was elena who suggested it and your 'god is love' stuff sounded something like his (of course the clue there was his propensity to write 'god' 'g-d' so i guess i don't get the job at scotland yard) since gerry suggested the possibility that you're fbwc i've thought about it for maybe five minutes. in the end, personalities dont matter as much as politics. it wouldnt matter to me if a "south beach parasite' such as carl brutanowski or a small sweedish blonde were trying to poison the working class' minds with this pie in the sky nonsense.

by the way, are you familiar with that particular song by your presumptive compatriot joe hill(strom)?

it explains quite well my attitude to this idea that 'god is love' and if we all somehow just manage to 'love' each other, everything will be just fine!

should striking workers lovethe scabs who take their jobs and thus the food from their babies' mouths? should the brave souls who marched in order that the hollow phraseology of the american founding myth that 'all men are created equal' should at least be given a modicum of lip-service, and who were in turn savagely beaten by truncheon-weilding racist police before being hosed down the streets by the local fire department (ah, what heroes!) and having their arms and legs chewed by the police dogs...should they love these scum and the bastards who set them in motion?

should the black children who watched as ignorant and vile fucks without even the courage to show their faces, gathered hooded on the streets shouting racist obscenities before dragging their fathers out of the house, coating them with tar, feathers intermingled with kicks, blows and epithets before stringing them up and setting them on fire, should THEY TOO LOVE THESE VILE SUBHUMAN PIECES OF GARBAGE?

NO!

NEVER. one does not coddle and pet a mad dog and one should not labor under the delusion that these racists are anything other than mad dogs and 'love' is simply not going to be the fulcrum that moves them.

the working class will forever be victimised piecemeal by these fucks and their agents until they have once and forever discarded the worthless illusions of our 'racial childhood' - the urge to bow and scrape before natural phenomena

[Bubba]

Surely you know always humor is subjective. What causes laughter in one person may cause only stifled yawn in other person. Large font doesn't make joke any less funny.
Your joke still wasn't funny, even if it made YOU chuckle.......you must have lost the humor in the translation. Too bad, you obviously thought you HAD humor to share.

The large font is for my sake, and others too lazy to put reading glasses on! Nothing funny about that!

But, I can still see that you're a beautiful young woman! Bubba LIKE!

:mrgreen:

[Ingrid]

say dingo, i'll give you props for that, but mind ye; i've always been a bit paranoid - at least since myearly 20s when i was first introduced to machiavelli (and robert anton wilson didnt help, but i got over that)

ingrid whoever you are, i'll admit that at first i thought you might be michael fineberg or something, i think it was elena who suggested it and your 'god is love' stuff sounded something like his (of course the clue there was his propensity to write 'god' 'g-d' so i guess i don't get the job at scotland yard) since gerry suggested the possibility that you're fbwc i've thought about it for maybe five minutes. in the end, personalities dont matter as much as politics. it wouldnt matter to me if a "south beach parasite' such as carl brutanowski or a small sweedish blonde were trying to poison the working class' minds with this pie in the sky nonsense.

by the way, are you familiar with that particular song by your presumptive compatriot joe hill(strom)?

it explains quite well my attitude to this idea that 'god is love' and if we all somehow just manage to 'love' each other, everything will be just fine!

should striking workers lovethe scabs who take their jobs and thus the food from their babies' mouths? should the brave souls who marched in order that the hollow phraseology of the american founding myth that 'all men are created equal' should at least be given a modicum of lip-service, and who were in turn savagely beaten by truncheon-weilding racist police before being hosed down the streets by the local fire department (ah, what heroes!) and having their arms and legs chewed by the police dogs...should they love these scum and the bastards who set them in motion?

should the black children who watched as ignorant and vile fucks without even the courage to show their faces, gathered hooded on the streets shouting racist obscenities before dragging their fathers out of the house, coating them with tar, feathers intermingled with kicks, blows and epithets before stringing them up and setting them on fire, should THEY TOO LOVE THESE VILE SUBHUMAN PIECES OF GARBAGE?

NO!

NEVER. one does not coddle and pet a mad dog and one should not labor under the delusion that these racists are anything other than mad dogs and 'love' is simply not going to be the fulcrum that moves them.

the working class will forever be victimised piecemeal by these fucks and their agents until they have once and forever discarded the worthless illusions of our 'racial childhood' - the urge to bow and scrape before natural phenomena
Should person love those who destroy and murder and push down into dirt? Always, answer is "yes." Turning to hate destroys self. Does this mean let person destroy and murder and push down into dirt? Of course not. Just because deeper meaning eludes you does not mean it is false! Nowhere have I encouraged anyone to allow victimization of self. Always peoples should fight for rights. Your "pie in sky" scenario is complete false reading of everything I have said here. There is no pie in sky, only stars.

I am to poison nothing. Easily, same case could be made from your black and white thinking on matters of world. Have you known suffering, or have you read from book? Who has tortured you? Perhaps there is justification for anger, perhaps there is not. Perhaps you have skipped meals, and eaten garbage for survival. Perhaps not. Always, person who is bruised and battered, and eats garbage while brutes run in streets with gun needs one thing more than anything, and that word is HOPE.

Always hope is better than hate. Always love is way to light. No amount of filth and horror will change this. You are making mistake of what is in heart, and what is in action. I will use self as example. Attacker comes from behind with knife. I will move very quickly, striking blow to ribs, and will sustain whatever cuts necessary to remove knife as weapon of attacker. I will disable attacker through use of force, even kill if necessary. Never will my mind be distracted by uselessness of focus on hate. Focus is on survival only.

Much of what you write on board is of great value. Much of philosophy has merit. However, life is not all logic and practicality. Notion that "religioin is opiate of masses" is simplistic and should only be written in child's nursery rhyme. There is no value in this idea. Sex is opiate of masses. TV is opiate of masses. Belief in power and money is opiate of masses. All things are opiate of masses. Is up to masses to have strength, wisdom and love in heart. Person with these things cannot be conrolled through biggest and strongest opiate of all: FEAR.

And now, you will digest what is beyond simple book, and comment if you dare. Take mind to new place. Maybe you will find growth. Maybe not. :)

[Ingrid]

Your joke still wasn't funny, even if it made YOU chuckle.......you must have lost the humor in the translation. Too bad, you obviously thought you HAD humor to share.

The large font is for my sake, and others too lazy to put reading glasses on! Nothing funny about that!

But, I can still see that you're a beautiful young woman! Bubba LIKE!

:mrgreen:
Yes, joke is funny to small blonde girl. Perhaps not funniest joke ever, but merits small chuckle. If one other person laughs, then joke is funny. Fact that one other person sees no humor does not merit rating of "not funny." Always humor is in eye of beholder. As in all things, criticism is only as valid as critic.

[April15]

Pretty profound stuff you said in response to Neuro.

[Ingrid]

Pretty profound stuff you said in response to Neuro.
Small nuggets of truth exist in everything we see, hear or experience. Always, trick is culling nuggets from great flood of useless information. How do we choose which is of value, and which is not? Lucky, subconscious operates on different level than logical brain. As famous American once said, "plant seed, and always it will grow."

And now I am thanking you. :)

[Neurobürger]

ingrid

the characterization of religion as the 'opium of the masses' isnt based on the idea of 'fear'....the function of religion in the 'christian' era has been to provide the masses of exploited and down-trodden peoples a consolation as well as justification for the existing state of affairs (status quo) while discouraging any attempts to change tthese things - after all, they are 'divinely ordained' and this too has always been a prop of the status quo - from the 'divine rights of kings' to the 'divine rights' of 'democracies' - each and all claim to have moral justification in an amorphous divinity whether it be jefferson's 'nature's god' or bin laden's 'merciful allah'


some men are not my brother. some men can never be my brother. men such as heinrich himmler, who murdered millions, but couldnt watch the handiwork of his own men without becoming violently ill. men such as josef d. stalin who also murdered millions of innocent peasants in the name of soviet communism (this is in no wise to be taken as a repudiation on my part of marx/trotsky/lenin). anyone who says to the slave that the master is his brother is either a foolish dreamer or a deceiving scoundrel. that's my opinion.

[Ingrid]

ingrid

the characterization of religion as the 'opium of the masses' isnt based on the idea of 'fear'....the function of religion in the 'christian' era has been to provide the masses of exploited and down-trodden peoples a consolation as well as justification for the existing state of affairs (status quo) while discouraging any attempts to change tthese things - after all, they are 'divinely ordained' and this too has always been a prop of the status quo - from the 'divine rights of kings' to the 'divine rights' of 'democracies' - each and all claim to have moral justification in an amorphous divinity whether it be jefferson's 'nature's god' or bin laden's 'merciful allah'


some men are not my brother. some men can never be my brother. men such as heinrich himmler, who murdered millions, but couldnt watch the handiwork of his own men without becoming violently ill. men such as josef d. stalin who also murdered millions of innocent peasants in the name of soviet communism (this is in no wise to be taken as a repudiation on my part of marx/trotsky/lenin). anyone who says to the slave that the master is his brother is either a foolish dreamer or a deceiving scoundrel. that's my opinion.
Nowhere have I said "religion is opiate of masses" is saying based on fear. What I have said is that fear is opiate of masses, much as other things are too. It can be opinion of Neurobürger that some men are not his brother, however, opinion is wrong. All people are children of God. Person who says this is not deceiving scoundrel, but very well could be foolish dreamer. World without foolish dreamers is no world.

Concept of religion is always misused by those in power. This is not newsflash of any kind. Many concepts are abused for such purposes. Point is, religion comes to exist naturally, without need from these peoples. When religion says "march in lockstep and let others hurt you," is false. When religion says "God is love" is true. You see consolation where there is truth. I cannot change this! Is neither my purpose nor goal to do so.

You do not offer alternative to fear. Alternative is hope. Where will downtrodden masses get hope from? Always, humans need hope to have true power. True power is never anything close to power held by corrupt masters. These are people who will not be finding happiness no matter how much they have. True power comes from finding happiness in most simple gift given to us. Gift of awareness.

Now here are unanswered questions:

Have you known suffering, or have you read from book? Who has tortured you? Perhaps there is justification for anger, perhaps there is not. Perhaps you have skipped meals, and eaten garbage for survival. Perhaps not. Always, person who is bruised and battered, and eats garbage while brutes run in streets with gun needs one thing more than anything, and that word is HOPE.

Opinion is one thing. Dialogue is another. What alternative to fear do you propose?

[April15]

My alternative is self reliance.

[Neurobürger]

Nowhere have I said "religion is opiate of masses" is saying based on fear. What I have said is that fear is opiate of masses, much as other things are too. It can be opinion of Neurobürger that some men are not his brother, however, opinion is wrong. All people are children of God. Person who says this is not deceiving scoundrel, but very well could be foolish dreamer. World without foolish dreamers is no world.

i will grant that foolish dreamers are necessary too, but you have yet to even offer conclusive evidence that such an all-powerful, "loving" being known as "god" even exists, and yet you expect me (and others) to take these assertions that we are 'children' of this being and that 'he loves' us as irrefutable facts. i think that this is the crux of the matter. you cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this being even exists, and yet you seem to be saying that all of our politics, all of our struggles for social justice must somehow be subordinated to the 'will' of this 'god' that we LOVE our oppressors (presumably while they're kicking our teeth in with their jackboots?)

convince me that there IS a god before trying to sell me the idea that this character 'loves' me. for all we know (and the evidence points just as much in this direction as the 'love' direction, cf; the 'old testament' of the 'bible' for plenty of examples) this 'god' character may be mentally/emotionally equivalent to a sociopathic four year old. (seriously, do 'rational, loving beings' wipe out ENTIRE CITIES (sodom, G-town), turn their 'children' (Job) over to the tender mercies of the 'destroyer' on a whim, oh and the BIG ONE, this 'loving god' who presumably wants us ALL to heed rodney king's words about 'just get(ting) along' - what does 'he' actually DO when mankind tries to develop a common 'lingua franca' with which to communicate, and presumably settle differences peacefully? why like any rational, loving being, he DESTROYS the edifice representing this unity and SCATTERS these peoples across the face of the earth - in much the same way i might add, that a mischevious and slighly sadistic child might destroy the works of an ant colony after a fine summer's day of watching the ants toil and struggle....





Concept of religion is always misused by those in power. This is not newsflash of any kind. Many concepts are abused for such purposes. Point is, religion comes to exist naturally, without need from these peoples. When religion says "march in lockstep and let others hurt you," is false. When religion says "God is love" is true. You see consolation where there is truth. I cannot change this! Is neither my purpose nor goal to do so.



if it's 'always misued by those in power' as you even admit, then of WHAT possible UTILITY is it to those subjected to this power? and how exactly DID religion come to exist? whole libraries have been written on the subject, but for the most part, we can sum it up as a REACTION TO FEAR - a reaction to the unknown and an attempt to understand the world in which we live in - muck-savage barbarians living in mud huts and ekeing out a bare existance as hunter/gatherers arent likely to have a detailed scientific understanding of the workings of - volcanos, say - so naturally their attempts at rationalizing and understanding the phenomena of a volcano are going to take some interesting shapes. their CONSCIOUSNESS is determined by the material means of their existance. their consciousness was necessarily limited and so their explanations of natural phenomena are going to tend towards the supernatural.

again you assert that 'god is love' without having even attempted to prove the central thesis; the existence of this being. until you can show that such a being actually exists, i can't accept such assertions as anything more than conjecture. sorry.

and so it is with your statement regarding 'truth' - it is my contention that the 'consolation' was not 'truth' at all, but in fact a lie (the consolation being an afterlife on the 'big rock candy mountain') that had the effect of destroying the morale of those who would otherwise have been motivated to (revolutionary) action. 's why i have such a low regard for the sky pilots



You do not offer alternative to fear. Alternative is hope. Where will downtrodden masses get hope from? Always, humans need hope to have true power. True power is never anything close to power held by corrupt masters. These are people who will not be finding happiness no matter how much they have. True power comes from finding happiness in most simple gift given to us. Gift of awareness.



you're ONLY Offering the results of fear - religion. fear is the stick and 'eternal salvation' the carrot that combined lead the working classes like mules to do the bidding of those in power. we athiest/communists are trying to show mankind that he needs neither stick nor carrot.

your 'hope' is a false one, in my opinion. again, provide some evidence that this 'god' actually exists. and remember, if you're going to use the 'bible' as your evidence, that this book does not depict this character you call 'god' in a very positive light at all, and it CERTAINLY doesnt support your thesis that 'god is love' - unless you count as acts of 'love' the systematic annihilation of entire population groups down to the last child!

as far as this 'awareness' - what good is it by itself? awareness of WHAT? and if we're 'aware' then what? this is all vague nonsense. mystical metaphysical CANT. what sort of 'true power' are you speaking of also? all of this is vague and meaningless to me. please elaborate if you can.


Now here are unanswered questions:

Have you known suffering, or have you read from book? Who has tortured you? Perhaps there is justification for anger, perhaps there is not. Perhaps you have skipped meals, and eaten garbage for survival. Perhaps not. Always, person who is bruised and battered, and eats garbage while brutes run in streets with gun needs one thing more than anything, and that word is HOPE.

of course i've known suffering. it's a pretty safe bet to say that everyone's known some measure of suffering. i've also "read from book" as you put it, as well as having had the benefit of listening to the experiences of people who HAVE been TRULY tortured (a jewish/hungarian of my acquaintance, who had been fighting in yugoslavia around '43 or so was indeed horribly tortured by the german SS). torture takes many forms. have i been personally physically tortured? no. i've been lucky enough to avoid that particular 'character building' experience. i've missed more than a few meals, and have known true want, having lived in one of the most expensive (in terms of cost of living, rent you see) areas in the country on minimum wage - was my plight anything comparable to that which most of the 'third world' faces EVERY DAY? hell no. that's because i was 'lucky' enough to be born in the united states, which - in parasite fashion - LIVES off these other places, using its armed might to enforce its economic and political will and so the population here is much more sheltered from the harsh realities of the world -

and all of that is relevant how? if you understand that the suffering in the world is the result of a political and economic system within which you live, and from which you benefit, are you supposed to keep quiet? silence is consent, ingrid. even if i havent been abused as much, as say, the virtual slave labor children hired by say, kathie lee gifford to make cheap clothing, does that mean i have no right - no DUTY to speak out against this?

and as for 'hope' - you put a pile of 'hope' and a pile of BREAD in front of a starving man who's been eating garbage, and tell him to choose one or the other, he's going to take the BREAD, not the empty hopes that will leave his stomach with the pangs of hunger. 'man' may NOT live by 'bread alone', but he certainly can't live without it. despite what all the fakirs and mystics may try to have the starving man believe.



you will eat
by and by
in that glorious land in the sky
work and pray
live on hay
you'll eat pie
in the sky
when you die
(that's a lie)
-joe hill
(a SMART swede)


Opinion is one thing. Dialogue is another. What alternative to fear do you propose?


alll you've given are OPINIONS. and 'cornpone opinions' at that (cf, mark twain's essay 'cornpone opinions'). 'god is love' is certainly not indisputable FACT, nor is the existence, even of this being. these are conjecture - supposition - OPINION.

the alternative i propose is a revolutionary class consciousness that TRANSCENDS tired old notions of nationalism, a consciousness that sees the rational ordering of society and its productive forces for the benefit of ALL EQUALLY as one of its highest callings, a world that has done away with the exploitation of man BY man, where men women and children are more than CONSUMERS or 'human resources' to be used up and thrown away, a world were PRODUCTION serves the needs of MANKIND, rather than the reverse, which we have today, where mankind serves the needs of production. (the real meaning of 'unemployment' you see)

but as long as people are bowing and scraping to trees, or rocks from space, or elephant god statues or ancient instruments of torture, it's not likely they're going to develop rational ways of thinking, now is it?

[Ingrid]

i will grant that foolish dreamers are necessary too, but you have yet to even offer conclusive evidence that such an all-powerful, "loving" being known as "god" even exists, and yet you expect me (and others) to take these assertions that we are 'children' of this being and that 'he loves' us as irrefutable facts. i think that this is the crux of the matter. you cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this being even exists, and yet you seem to be saying that all of our politics, all of our struggles for social justice must somehow be subordinated to the 'will' of this 'god' that we LOVE our oppressors (presumably while they're kicking our teeth in with their jackboots?)

convince me that there IS a god before trying to sell me the idea that this character 'loves' me. for all we know (and the evidence points just as much in this direction as the 'love' direction, cf; the 'old testament' of the 'bible' for plenty of examples) this 'god' character may be mentally/emotionally equivalent to a sociopathic four year old. (seriously, do 'rational, loving beings' wipe out ENTIRE CITIES (sodom, G-town), turn their 'children' (Job) over to the tender mercies of the 'destroyer' on a whim, oh and the BIG ONE, this 'loving god' who presumably wants us ALL to heed rodney king's words about 'just get(ting) along' - what does 'he' actually DO when mankind tries to develop a common 'lingua franca' with which to communicate, and presumably settle differences peacefully? why like any rational, loving being, he DESTROYS the edifice representing this unity and SCATTERS these peoples across the face of the earth - in much the same way i might add, that a mischevious and slighly sadistic child might destroy the works of an ant colony after a fine summer's day of watching the ants toil and struggle....





if it's 'always misued by those in power' as you even admit, then of WHAT possible UTILITY is it to those subjected to this power? and how exactly DID religion come to exist? whole libraries have been written on the subject, but for the most part, we can sum it up as a REACTION TO FEAR - a reaction to the unknown and an attempt to understand the world in which we live in - muck-savage barbarians living in mud huts and ekeing out a bare existance as hunter/gatherers arent likely to have a detailed scientific understanding of the workings of - volcanos, say - so naturally their attempts at rationalizing and understanding the phenomena of a volcano are going to take some interesting shapes. their CONSCIOUSNESS is determined by the material means of their existance. their consciousness was necessarily limited and so their explanations of natural phenomena are going to tend towards the supernatural.

again you assert that 'god is love' without having even attempted to prove the central thesis; the existence of this being. until you can show that such a being actually exists, i can't accept such assertions as anything more than conjecture. sorry.

and so it is with your statement regarding 'truth' - it is my contention that the 'consolation' was not 'truth' at all, but in fact a lie (the consolation being an afterlife on the 'big rock candy mountain') that had the effect of destroying the morale of those who would otherwise have been motivated to (revolutionary) action. 's why i have such a low regard for the sky pilots


as far as this 'awareness' - what good is it by itself? awareness of WHAT? and if we're 'aware' then what? this is all vague nonsense. mystical metaphysical CANT. what sort of 'true power' are you speaking of also? all of this is vague and meaningless to me. please elaborate if you can.



of course i've known suffering. it's a pretty safe bet to say that everyone's known some measure of suffering. i've also "read from book" as you put it, as well as having had the benefit of listening to the experiences of people who HAVE been TRULY tortured (a jewish/hungarian of my acquaintance, who had been fighting in yugoslavia around '43 or so was indeed horribly tortured by the german SS). torture takes many forms. have i been personally physically tortured? no. i've been lucky enough to avoid that particular 'character building' experience. i've missed more than a few meals, and have known true want, having lived in one of the most expensive (in terms of cost of living, rent you see) areas in the country on minimum wage - was my plight anything comparable to that which most of the 'third world' faces EVERY DAY? hell no. that's because i was 'lucky' enough to be born in the united states, which - in parasite fashion - LIVES off these other places, using its armed might to enforce its economic and political will and so the population here is much more sheltered from the harsh realities of the world -

and all of that is relevant how? if you understand that the suffering in the world is the result of a political and economic system within which you live, and from which you benefit, are you supposed to keep quiet? silence is consent, ingrid. even if i havent been abused as much, as say, the virtual slave labor children hired by say, kathie lee gifford to make cheap clothing, does that mean i have no right - no DUTY to speak out against this?

and as for 'hope' - you put a pile of 'hope' and a pile of BREAD in front of a starving man who's been eating garbage, and tell him to choose one or the other, he's going to take the BREAD, not the empty hopes that will leave his stomach with the pangs of hunger. 'man' may NOT live by 'bread alone', but he certainly can't live without it. despite what all the fakirs and mystics may try to have the starving man believe.


alll you've given are OPINIONS. and 'cornpone opinions' at that (cf, mark twain's essay 'cornpone opinions'). 'god is love' is certainly not indisputable FACT, nor is the existence, even of this being. these are conjecture - supposition - OPINION.

the alternative i propose is a revolutionary class consciousness that TRANSCENDS tired old notions of nationalism, a consciousness that sees the rational ordering of society and its productive forces for the benefit of ALL EQUALLY as one of its highest callings, a world that has done away with the exploitation of man BY man, where men women and children are more than CONSUMERS or 'human resources' to be used up and thrown away, a world were PRODUCTION serves the needs of MANKIND, rather than the reverse, which we have today, where mankind serves the needs of production. (the real meaning of 'unemployment' you see)

but as long as people are bowing and scraping to trees, or rocks from space, or elephant god statues or ancient instruments of torture, it's not likely they're going to develop rational ways of thinking, now is it?Never will I convince you there is God, or even try. Never will I offer evidence of this. Religion is only faith, and nothing more. Reason for loving oppressors is for own peace of mind. Hate in heart is worse than bullet there. Nothing good can come of this. I am selling you nothing. I gain nothing based on what you believe. I do not believe literally in stories of Old Testament. These are only metaphors, and are as you say. I believe in power of forgiveness for reasons that go beyond simple religious faith. I believe in healing of heart.

Yes, religion is always misused by those in power! All things that have power to do great good also have power to do great harm. What good is religion to those who are subject to those in power? Is simple. Belief in heart provides strength and hope to all people. Always you must believe in something. Do I ask you to believe in Christian God? Of course not. This would be ludicrous. You will believe in that which inspires you. Point of forgiveness and love in heart transcends simple nuts and bolts conversation about which God is real, or if any God is real. Point of forgiveness and love in heart is healthy heart, and not boiling over of hate into damage to psyche. Always point is for those who have faith, and then hate others for having different belief. Why do this? Why defend faith by violating it? This is wrong way, and message is not necessarily to angry Communist protector of working class! However, as long as you witness it, part about love in heart cannot hurt you. Love can never be bad thing. Only when used for selfish purposes, and then, technically is not love at all, but desire.

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.

Always there is relevence to questions. This is not argument, this is dialog. Learning more about your own personal situation is helpful to me. Amount of suffering you have done does not add or take away from opinions. How will you see this class consciousness come to pass? Is nice idea, but obstacles appear overwhelming. "Opiates of masses" appear fixed and very large. Overcoming will be formidable.

Of course you have duty to speak out against that which is injustice. If I have given other impression, this is due to poor communication only. Never do I recommend bowing and scraping to trees and rocks. This is waste of energy in worst way. There is place where rational thinking and belief merge. This is good place to be. :)

[Neurobürger]

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.



i find it particularly interesting that, in order to illustrate your thesis, you chose the writings of Lao Tzu....taoists, in my (admittedly incomplete) understanding do not believe in a single unitary personified 'god'


anyway, to my understanding of the tao, even hatred is 'natural' and part of the tao

as for 'hope' tht you spoke of, lao tzu had a different opinion



13

Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.

http://marxists.org/reference/archive/lao-tzu/works/tao-te-ching/tao.htm


taoism appears to have more in common with hegel's dialectic than it does with any sort of 'god worshipping' religions...



anyway, i am not defending 'hatred' as such....one can recognize the inevitability of the class struggle (or class war), engage in the struggle and yet do so without hatred. i do not 'hate' the capitalists and their dupes. i DO hate nazis, and i will foreever andalways hate them, not for WHO they are, but for WHAT they are.

oh and what has lao tzu to say about 'fear'?



17

When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
Next best is a leader who is loved.
Next, one who is feared.
The worst is one who is despised.

http://marxists.org/reference/archive/lao-tzu/works/tao-te-ching/tao.htm



apparently fear is a viable means of ruling - i'm sure that Stalin and Hitler would have approved - both were LOVED and FEARED by great numbers of the populace of their respective lands....

[April15]

Neuroberg & Ingrid,
This has been a very delightfull discussion. Very enlightening too. Thank you both.

[Mike]

Neuroberg & Ingrid,
This has been a very delightfull discussion. Very enlightening too. Thank you both.Yes, indeed...but how can you give credence to a BLOND

It's common knowledge that...

[April15]

Mike,
I am a nordic viking. I am blonde, blue eyed , 6'4" male. I am also getting old.

[Ingrid]

i find it particularly interesting that, in order to illustrate your thesis, you chose the writings of Lao Tzu....taoists, in my (admittedly incomplete) understanding do not believe in a single unitary personified 'god'


anyway, to my understanding of the tao, even hatred is 'natural' and part of the tao

as for 'hope' tht you spoke of, lao tzu had a different opinion



taoism appears to have more in common with hegel's dialectic than it does with any sort of 'god worshipping' religions...



anyway, i am not defending 'hatred' as such....one can recognize the inevitability of the class struggle (or class war), engage in the struggle and yet do so without hatred. i do not 'hate' the capitalists and their dupes. i DO hate nazis, and i will foreever andalways hate them, not for WHO they are, but for WHAT they are.

oh and what has lao tzu to say about 'fear'?




apparently fear is a viable means of ruling - i'm sure that Stalin and Hitler would have approved - both were LOVED and FEARED by great numbers of the populace of their respective lands....

Taoism is not religion. It is philosophy. Again, I have not tried to convert you to worship of singular God. Lao Tsu has no opinions of any kind. Lao Tsu only wrote truths of Universe. All truths line up to form ONE SINGULAR TRUTH. There is much that is contradictory. That is why it is ultimately up to each person to delineate absolute truth, and even if one spends lifetime on quest, results may vary, depending on individual user. :)

Writings of Lao Tsu, Bible, and many other books of wisdom were thousands of years ago, in other time, other place. How do we know which strands apply in today's world? Obviously, best answers are in head and heart, and yes, out in world to be found. Always, it is of little value to take individual lines from Tao de Ching. Best strategy is to take whole chapter in context. Also is important to use best translation! Here is what I believe is more true to spirit of original:

13
Accept disgrace willingly.
Accept misfortune as the human condition.

What do you mean by "Accept disgrace willingly"?
Accept being unimportant.
Do not be concerned with loss and gain.
This is called "accepting disgrace willingly."

What do you mean by "Accept misfortune as the human condition"?
Misfortune comes from having a body.
Without a body, how could there be misfortune?

Surrender yourself humbly; then you can be trusted to care for all things.
Love the world as your own self; then you can truly care for all things.

Here is translation from your site:

13
Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.

What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
you position is shaky.
When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
you will always keep your balance.

What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?
Hope and fear are both phantoms
that arise from thinking of the self.
When we don't see the self as self,
what do we have to fear?

See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things.

I do not believe this to be accurate translation, but this is up to individual to discern. Always, most important thing is to seek absolute truth, and not truth that is convenient! However, even in this translation, I believe Lao Tsu is speaking more of letting go of Self-Importance, which is merely Ego. Ego is artificial state for awareness. True state of awareness is in harmony with Universe. Always this sounds like mumbo-jumbo to some; always this creates feeling of bliss in others. Who is right? Why would anonymous blonde girl from internet be authority of this?

I will say I hate what Nazis did, and believed, and stand for. Do I hate them as people? I hope not to do so. I hope to find forgiveness for error of their ways, even if I will not allow them to gain power, or commit crimes. Always I will argue with "Master Race" philosophy of any kind. All peoples are children of God. This is only my belief. I can never prove this.

[Ingrid]

Neuroberg & Ingrid,
This has been a very delightfull discussion. Very enlightening too. Thank you both.

And now I am thanking you for taking time to read. Always it is easiest to disregard words that are not simply what person wishes to hear. This is what most peoples do!

[Mike]

Mike,
I am a nordic viking. I am blonde, blue eyed , 6'4" male. I am also getting old.I spent most of my childhood in Ballard...a scandanavian stronghold in North Seattle...among the Johnson's, Johanson's, Myking's, Thorvaldson's, ETC...

Ya, sure, ya betcha...

Lutefisk, lefsa, and all...

Most were about my height, with brown hair and pudgy cheeks... :rolleyes:

[ellena]

Ingrid, Ivana Trump called.

She wants her accent back.

[Ingrid]

Same here green eyes 6' 1". Big whoop.

Ingrid, Ivana Trump called.

She wants her accent back.

I thought it was Eva Gabor? Always, you would be happier if I were Chinese! :)

[ellena]

I thought it was Eva Gabor? Always, you would be happier if I were Chinese! :)

Why not Vietnamese?

I need a good manicure.

[Ingrid]

Why not Vietnamese?

I need a good manicure.

How about Chinese body hair removal?

Wax on, wax off!

[ellena]

Now you are Brazilian !!! Cripes I can't keep up...

[mickey]

Not to be sexist, FWBC, but can you post more of those Ingrid pics?

[April15]

Mike,
My mom came from Washington. Frudenberg

[Neurobürger]

ingrid,

gravity is a "truth of the universe" (universal truth?)

"love" is a concept.

love is certainly not 'universal' - as there are numerous creatures right here on our own earth which have no capacity for this emotion. reptiles, per example.

given the possibilities of life on other planets, if such (sentient) life exists, there are no guarantees that this emotion will be comprehensible to this species (then again, who knows?) - i can easily imagine entire races of beings that have no concept of the idea or emotion of 'love'

i believe that 'love' is perhaps a sort of biological trick that somehow was useful in an evolutionary sense....certainly people put up with a lot of nonsense in the name of 'love' (speaking in terms of personal relationships) perhaps it had something to do with social cohesion and keeping these fragile ape babies which matured sooo much slower than their other primate cousins, alive - i don't know....


anyway, marx never proposed an abolition of religion by force - the idea is that once we take care of the real causes of suffering on this planet, mankind will eventually on his own, lose any use for religion and it'll die a 'natural' death of old age.

of course, like trotsky said, we don't propose to do away with the problems of sex and death but they'll be a lot easier to deal with on a full stomach, with decent shelter and the physical wants satisfied...

[Mike]

Mike,
My mom came from Washington. FrudenbergWhere in blazes is Frudenberg? Even Google is clueless...

[April15]

Belief, God, and love are all concepts and are related. If one is removed, most religious, people are helpless. I think that God helps with accepting death. Although most religious people I know fear death. So why is it that some engage death to promote their beliefs?

[Ingrid]

ingrid,

gravity is a "truth of the universe" (universal truth?)

"love" is a concept.

love is certainly not 'universal' - as there are numerous creatures right here on our own earth which have no capacity for this emotion. reptiles, per example.

given the possibilities of life on other planets, if such (sentient) life exists, there are no guarantees that this emotion will be comprehensible to this species (then again, who knows?) - i can easily imagine entire races of beings that have no concept of the idea or emotion of 'love'

i believe that 'love' is perhaps a sort of biological trick that somehow was useful in an evolutionary sense....certainly people put up with a lot of nonsense in the name of 'love' (speaking in terms of personal relationships) perhaps it had something to do with social cohesion and keeping these fragile ape babies which matured sooo much slower than their other primate cousins, alive - i don't know....


anyway, marx never proposed an abolition of religion by force - the idea is that once we take care of the real causes of suffering on this planet, mankind will eventually on his own, lose any use for religion and it'll die a 'natural' death of old age.

of course, like trotsky said, we don't propose to do away with the problems of sex and death but they'll be a lot easier to deal with on a full stomach, with decent shelter and the physical wants satisfied...

Love is emotion. This thought now has me curious. So I do some checking on internet.

First, we will take book I have not read, "The Meaning of Love" by Richard Garlikov:



Since people often disagree about what love is or what the word love means, I am proposing a usage that is meant to be clear and that is also meant to capture the important features of the varied ideas people now have about the subject.... My approach to this subject is meant to be rational and logical, analytic and scrutinizing, not mystical, religious, poetic, or psychoanalytic. I will try to show clearly and logically the reasons supporting what I say. Logic and emotions are not totally incompatible; though logic cannot be understood emotionally, emotions can be understood (in various degrees) and discussed logically....

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...how it feels to love when you are doing dishes or scrubbing floors or running a mile or having intercourse or reading a book or taking an exam or kissing for the first time someone you have silently, secretly, and shyly worshiped a long time, or saying "I do" at the alter, or attending a funeral or feeling guilt or terror or contentedly watching your loved one sleep by your side, or feeling pride, performing surgery, or drowning are very different kinds of things. And this is true whether you are talking about love for a spouse of fifty years, love for a first girlfriend (boyfriend), a spouse on a honeymoon, a son or brother, or clergyman who has been kind in a time of need, your favorite aunt, favorite elementary school teacher, the newest Hollywood (or office) sex symbol, and maybe even your love for pizza. And this is only about how it feels to love; yet I will argue later that love is more than just a (kind of) feeling anyway. But all this is not to say that love is so unique for different people or at different times that nothing of general importance and description can be said about it. Though love is a variety of things and involves a variety of things, the varieties themselves can be meaningfully explained and described, and they can be explained and described simply in terms of everyday experience rather than described away in scientific (or pseudo-scientific) jargon or theory. And though they can be described in specific, accurate, logical, non-mystical and non-mythical prose which will make reflection, decision, and discussion of love easier and clearer, this will not thereby make love seem prosaic. And it may even heighten both the value of love itself and the meaning, poignancy, and perception poetry about it provides....

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I list the results of this survey to show people do use the word differently, though it is easy to prove this yourself simply by asking a few friends how they use the word "love" or what it means to them; you will quickly see a wide difference. Or tell your parents you love someone you know they disapprove of and see how quickly they try to show you what you have is not love for that person but hero worship, infatuation, sexual longings (being in lust or in heat, not in love), rebellious disrespect for your parents, or whatever. I would like to take the opportunity to show rather briefly for now what is wrong with thinking of love as any of the categories in the above survey, and thereby to show some of the kinds of things a correct or useful theory of love must take into account and thus explain or consider....

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W. Newton-Smith, in an article called "A Conceptual Investigation of Love" in Alan Montefiore's Philosophy and Personal Relations, talks of paradigm cases such as Romeo and Juliet, Abelard and Heloise, and Caesar and Cleopatra to describe the kinds of love relationships he is talking about. I am not that sure I know how these people felt or acted toward each other but I think Newton-Smith gets the point across that he means to talk about the kind of relationships that I call "romantic" in the general sense. However, he goes on to make what I think is an error in trying further to describe this kind of love in order to make clear he is not speaking of cases of parental or other sorts of non-romantic love. I think his paradigm cases perhaps mislead him to this error, but it is an error many people make without that excuse. He writes "... so attention will be confined to cases of love which involve sexuality ... sexual feelings, desires, acts and so on. Thus the stipulation excludes from ... consideration cases of fraternal love, paternal love and other cases not involving sexuality." He later says that sexuality can serve as a criterial mark for distinguishing the sorts of paradigm cases he mentioned earlier. Even with his later refinements of this criteria, I think he has made an error, has eliminated too many of the kinds of relationships he has wanted to discuss, and has injected sex into the analysis of relationships far too early and made it far more important than it needs to be or is. Certainly I do not mean by romance all those or just those attractions which are sexual in nature. Some romantic feelings may include some sort of sexual desire, but not all do; and even of those that do, the desire may not be for intercourse but perhaps simply kissing, hugging, or holding hands....

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Whew! Reading of all these words has taken breath away. Does this mean breath was taken away by Love? And now I have made poor joke! Writer has excellent intentions, but has not really touched upon true meaning of word "Love."

Maybe dictionary can help us (next post)

[April15]

Mike,
Frudenberg is the family name not a place. I'm sorry . Her dad was a bridge tender at the Chalis river. That is all I know.

[Mike]

Mike,
Frudenberg is the family name not a place. I'm sorry .Sure enough, "Frudenberg" would be Scandinavian at that.

Graduated from Ballard High School in 19.. The senior class had over 700 in it. The class photo showed absolutely no one that even looked dark enough for a heavy tan.

[Mike]

Mike,
Frudenberg is the family name not a place. I'm sorry . Her dad was a bridge tender at the Chalis river. That is all I know.That's probably "Chehalis"... My wife's parents were originally from the Centralia Chehalis area (SouthWestern Washington)

[April15]

I posted and poof the thing is gone. Yes that would be the river. My aunt had a drivein restaurant there next to the bridge about 30 years ago. Cosmopolis is the only town I can think of but I don't think that was it.

[Islanders_for_the_cup_04]

Good ole Ingrid!!!!