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View Full Version : Armored humvees and soldier suicides


LeoO
12-22-2004, 02:01 AM
The problem with Huffington and other anti-war leftists pretending to be outraged by the Humvee issue or soldier suicides or whatnot is that they're against the war. They never wanted us to liberate Iraq and overthrow Saddam's WMD-obssessed, terrorist-friendly regime in the first place. The whole project of making Iraq into a normal country run by decent locals who permit a reasonable degree of political, religious, and economic freedom is something they ferociously opposed.

Their reasons for such opposition were purely partisan, of course -- Clinton, Gore, and Kerry warned repeatedly that Saddam consorted with terorrists and sought WMDs, and supported regime change, but when Bush decided to follow through after 12 years of bluster, rhetoric, empty threats, diplomatic pressure, sanctions, air strikes, cruise missile attacks, and carrot-and-stick overtures, Arianna and her Hollywood/lib friends went berserk with knee-jerk opposition, solely because it was BUSH doing these things.

Regardless of their motives, however, the fact remains that they were against. Against liberation, against jailing Saddam and Chemical Ali, against opening the gates of the child prisons, against excluding the people who ripped out tongues and nailed them to boards from future positions of power in Iraq, against, against against.

Over and over, solely to damage Bush, their favored Congressmen viciously attacked America. Some flew to Baghdad and parroted Saddam's party line before the war. Many are doing so to this day. Bush waited for months, years, to deliver the most-telegraphed punch in history because he let his implacable, bad-faith critics hound him into begging the useless UN for "permission" to go to Iraq. The endless debate, as if Saddam weren't obviously guilty and demonstrating bad faith for 12 straight years, gave him plenty of time to destroy, hide, or give away whatever weapons and components he may have had.

To sweeping media silence, we found a nuclear weapon centrifuge buried in a scientist's garden, and chemical weapon artillery shells rigged as IEDs. I guess they must have grown on trees. We found an entire MiG-29 squadrons buried in the sand. Iraq was a mlitary dictatorship with ammo dumps the size of Manhattan. Who knows what was there?

The fact is that Saddam was caught with a nuke program in the mid-90s that he had been running right under the nose of UN inspectors. And yet somehow we were supposed to give him endless benefits of a doubt, require ACLU, OJ-jury levels of proof before we were allowed to finally resume the war he brought on himself by refusing to comply with the terms of the Gulf War armistice he had asked for. The burden of proof was on Saddam to show he had disarmed for good. South Africa, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, many countries have done this. And now Libya. Saddam played hide-the-pea for 12 years. The UN Security Council gave him a "final opportunity" to "immediately" disarm fully or face "serious consequences" - which in the understated world of international diplomacy means war. It balked at carrying out this threat because it had been corrupted by Saddam's oil-for-food money, so Bush carried it out.

After 9/11, no responsible president could let Saddam alone forever. He openly harbored and sheltered terrorists such as Abu Abbas and Abu Nidal (who gained fame by hijacking a cruise ship and throwing a wheelchair-bound Jewish American to his death into the sea). He financed the families of suicide bombers who murdered civilians. And, he even offered and gave medical care, shelter, and help for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, an al-Qaeda loyalist who had trained in Afghanistan and who was wounded fighting US troops in Afrghanistan AFTER 9/11. Saddam helped Zarqawi set up Ansar al-Islam in northern Iraq, in the northern Kurish region that was no longer in Baghdad's control.

No honest person can claim Saddam wasn't mixed up with terrorists up to his eyeballs. And constantly pursuing WMD. And after the UNSC's "final" demand, he produced a "report' that was such an insult, such a pack of lies, that not even the French or Chinese pretended that is met with UN's war ultimatum.

At that point, Bush, being a sane and responsible leader, decided there was no other alternative but war.

To Arianna Huffington and her airhead Hollywood friends, this was some monstrous crime against humanity. They have worked relentlessly to portray our noble war effort as a cynical evil act, motivated by domestic politics, oil-greed, corporate corruption, bigotry, Cold War paranoia, filial-jealousy psychological problems, or what have you. In the same rant they will portray the war as either a colossal blunder by a complete fool or an evil conspiracy by a greedy tyrant. Coherence doesn't matter. The essential point is always to DELEGITIMIZE THE WAR EFFORT, TO MAKE SURE OUR SOLDIERS, THE ENEMY, AND THE WORLD KNOWS THAT OUR TROOPS' FIGHTING HAS NO VALUE, AND WILL PRODUCE NO GOOD.

And now Arianna weeps crocodile tears over solider suicides? When she is the one working hard night and day to tell our brave warriors fighting for good that they are chumps working for fools or wicked men?

The hypocrisy is breathtaking in its loathsome shamelessness.

As far as the armor issue, this is more opportunism. War is war. Anyone who is not a hair-sprayed Hollywood airhead knows that war is chaos and wrenching change and disasters and unanticipated crises, all the time. God only knows how she would have handled the fact that in World War 2 we deliberately rejected better-armored tanks in favor of the lightly armored Sherman. The Sherman was easy prey for much heavier and more powerful German tanks. However we produced them in vast quantities and emphasized reliability and fuel-efficiency. The slow, finicky, ponderous German tanks that always broke down and could not be produced in numbers were eventually overwhelmed and bypassed by our speedy Shermans. But thousands of Americans died as a result of this strategy.

This time around it wasn't even a deliberate choice. The humvee was never designed as a counter-insurgency vehicle, meant to bounce RPG-7 fire in urban combat zones. It was meant to operate behind enemy lines, ferrying men and supplies over rough terrain. Yes, a bureaucratic snafu and mutual misunderstanding caused the Pentagon to overlook the reality that it could have gotten more up-armored Humvees. That's in the nature of bureaucracies and war.

During World War 2 Harry Truman as a Senator worked hard to flush out the kinks, corruption, and ineffeciencies in the military procurement system. Waste and mistakes and delays are bound to occur.

But Truman had CREDIBILITY IN HIS EFFORTS BECAUSE HE SUPPORTED THE WAR. HE WASN'T EAGERLY SEEKING OUT PROBLEMS TO HYPE AS A WAY TO DEMORALIZE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND OUR TROOPS, TO DESTROY OUR WAR EFFORT AND MAKE US LOSE.

Buzzramjet
12-23-2004, 08:58 PM
THAT was without a doubt the single biggest load of bullshit I have EVER read and believe me, when dealing with airheaded republican rightwing nutcases who are also members of the Christian Taliban, you read a LOT of garbage from apologists for Bush's arrogant disregard for the truth and total lack of understanding of what he was doing.

PRETENDING to be outraged. HOW DARE YOU RIGHTWING NUTCASE!

All you are doing is making MORE apologies for the idiots in the White House and those generals who are more politically motivated rather than motivated by concern for their troops. You DON'T get to be a Pentagon general if you haven't learned how to kiss so many asses you nose turns permanently brown.

Troops AND us who are ACTUALLY concerned about troops safety UNLIKE you morons on the right who have your noses so far into the Bible and do nothing but listen to the total maroons on fauxnews and Rush the Drug Addict, or Sean the two-faced, said all along that this war was going to be different.

BUT NOOOOOO, you members of the Christian Taliban said to just march in and kill everyone who got in the way and we would be treated as liberators, and their women would kiss our men and the children would throw flowers. Seems to me they are thowing something else and it don't smell pretty.

ANYONE else who either didn't think we should go or said to wait until we were completely ready and had ACTUAL proof, (speaking of which, a couple of papers and some shell heads and YOU HAVE EVIDENCE of a threat to the USA? typical rightwing nutcase) were summarily dismissed as not being team players. IN OTHER WORDS "YES MEN)

OR the propaganda arm of the Repugnican party, fakenews, began to sell the idea that if you were against the war you were a traitor, Bill "Phone sex is my game" O'shutup said non stop you were an unpatriotic American if you were against the war. That total nutcase bitch Coulter was calling for the deaths of anyone against the war. AND saying we should kill Iraqi leaders and force the citizens to become Christians.

AND then there was the LEAD LIAR Bush with his cronies Cheney, Rice, and their token intelligent guy, Powell, who all went out and said we were LITERALLY HOURS AWAY FROM BEING ATTACKED WITH CHEMICAL, BIOLOGICAL, AND NUCLEAR WEAPONS and we had better go after Saddam and Do IT RIGHT AWAY OR WE'LL ALL DIE AHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

What a load of bullshit and lies that turned out to be.

Yeah a lot of us were against the war and SO WHAT???/

WHO GIVES A FUCK IF SADDAM WAS STILL IN POWER??? I MEAN SERIOUSLY WHO GIVES A FUCK???

He was NO threat to us and never had been. Bush lied and knew he was lying but most politicians whether demo or repug wont' call him on it. They use nonsense eupemisms like, "bad intelligence(so he give the man who gave him bad intelligence a fucking medal, I mean WTF?) or misled.

HE LIED and he knew it. You think he would have actually sent these men to war if he thought that the biological and chemical weapons actually existed? The death toll would have been in the THOUSANDS the first week of the war. HE KNEW there were no WMD's. Because if there had been we would have had our butts kicked. IF Saddam had had those WMD's, and used them we wouldn't have gotten a hundred miles into Iraq. The so-called gas masks wouldn't have worked against most of the chemical and bilogics Saddam supposedly had.

BUT Saddam didn't have WMD's. Turned out he was telling the truth and Bush was lying. How ironic is that? It's be funny except for the thousands of dead people, thousands wounded and billions of dollars expended.

Bush lied and thousands have died as a result.

NINE HUNDRED CHILDREN WOULD STILL HAVE A PARENT!

ONE THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED AND GOD KNOWS HOW MANY MORE AMERICAN SOLDEIRS WOULD BE ALIVE TODAY.

FIFTY THOUSAND WOUNDED WOULD STILL HAVE THEIR ARMS, LEGS, NUTS, EYES, EARS, AND SANITY.

ALMOST ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DEAD IRAQI'S AND WOUNDED IRAQI'S WOULD STILL BE ALIVE OR IN ONE PIECE.

IRAQ IS BEGINNING TO LOOK LIKE BERLIN AFTER THE WAR. TOTAL RUBBLE.

AND THE FINANCIAL COST IS STAGGERING.

Like I said, WHO GIVES A FUCK IF SADDAM HAD STILL BEEN IN POWER???

I don't and more and more people are starting to think the same way.

Bush cost us our honor by lying. HE COST THE USA IT'S CREDIBILITY!

We had Saddam contained and who gives a fuck if he was scamming money?
Didn't affect us at all. I didn't ONCE go to bed worried about Saddam attacking us. DID YOU? Cuz if you did you're a bigger fool than you write about. Bet you went out and bought Duct tape to keep WMD from killing you too. Talk about a bunch of rightwing nutcases who are fools as well.

At least we weren't STUPID enough to believe Bush the Lush was invading Iraq to save us. WE KNEW he was doing it because he was STUPID enough to believe those morons from Halliburton and other oil and energy companies that said taking Iraq would be a cakewalk and they would be given the contracts to run the biggest oil fields in the world.

BUT they were STUPID enough to not listen to those experts who said, AND THIS INCLUDES BUSH'S FATHER, going into Iraq would turn into another Vietnam. BUT Bush keeps lying and saying ALL IS GOING WELL, DEMOCRACY IS ON THE MARCH, THE IRAQI PEOPLE ARE TASTING FREEDOM.

Talk about being a blathering idiot...Bush fills that bill to the T.

Bet they would rather have Saddam back. They had more electricity, more running water and more of their fathers NOT BEING KILLED.

AND NO you moron, we, Americans against the war, were not 'attacking" America we were trying to protect it's integrity and honor, something you rightwing nutcases can't understand since you only blindly follow without questioning your leaders which is what a TRUE PATRIOT does. HE QUESTIONS AUTHORITY.

And please spare me this total bullshit about LIBERATING IRAQ. That is NOT why we were told we had to INVADE another country. We were told we were under IMMINENT threat of attack.

What a load of total lies that was.

NUCLEAR WEAPON CENTRIFUGE IN A GARDEN??? What planet are you from? That thing couldn't have been used to separate cream for cripes sake. Just like those tubes couldn't be used for nukes either but the rightwing nutcase STILL claim they could even after every expert in the world says they couldn't.

ALSO the 9/11 report explicitly said Saddam HAD DESTROYED his WMD when he was supposed to. Wow! how about that! Saddam told the truth and Bush lied AGAIN.

CHEMICAL WEAPONS ARTILLERY SHELLS used as IED's? What fucking planet are you from? I mean really because you sure don't live in reality based Earth.

Obviously guilty? Guilty of what? TELLING THE TRUTH!! Wow what a concept. Bush should learn how.

Caught with a nuke program?? WHERE do you get this nonsense. Talk about moronic. I swear you MUST be living on another planet, cuz none of that happened here on Earth.

WHERE Did you get this total bullshit that he was OPENLY harboring terrorists. NOT one shred of evidence ever existed to prove that bullshit. BUT then again I suppose if the morons at Fakenews told you then that was all it took to convince your sheep mind all was that way. Anything to support your world view even if it is lies and bullshit.

After 9/11??? What the FUCK did that have to do with IRAQ???
SAUDI ARABIA was in it up to their eyeballs. Osama was BEHIND 9/11 and we didn't do a fucking thing except go throw a few bombs and lose a few soldiers and overthrow the Taliban (I guess Georgie needed to study them personally to see how to set up a Christian Taliban here in America)

There is no proof that Saddam did a thing with any terrorists. That old saw about him giving money to terrorist families has never been proven to be true. NOT ONE BIT, yet it is making the rounds like it was truth. You are obviously living in fantasy land.

Truman and WWII had and have no link to this fucked up invasion of another country that posed no threat to us but SURE HAD A LOT OF OIL.

OR have you forgotten the little fact that Bush told his people to find ANY EXCUSE TO INVADE IRAQ.

Bush must have been dancing a jig for days when 9/11 happened.

The HUMVEES? Bush and the generals KNEW that the HUMVEES were going to be used in Iraq and that they would come under fire, but they were being cheapskates. They didn't give a damn about the soldiers safety, just giving money to their contractor buddies. A HUNDRED BUCKS FOR EACH FIFTEEN POUND LOAD OF LAUNDRY? I MEAN WHAT A RIP OFF. But you apologists for Bush overlook those little rip offs because then you MIGHT, JUST MIGHT HAVE TO ADMIT YOU BACKED LYING HORSESHIT EATER.

By the way hear from Osama lately. THE REAL GUY BEHIND 9/11? Oh yeah he sends Bush his greetings regularly. He LOVES Bush. Bush is the single greatest

ENTIRE MIG 28 SQUADRONS?? Funny they didn't work for shit. OOOOOH now I'm frightened. A bunch of useless jets buried in the desert. Yessiree sounds like more reasons to invade another country that posed no threat to us.

And since when do we invade countries based on what the MIGHT DO????? Talk about more bullshit.

IT was only after no WMD's were found that that moron Bush started changing his tune to "We went to Iraq to liberate the Iraqi's and spread freedom and democracy in the Mid East." What another total load of bullshit.

So go preach to your own choir; they won't question you, they will blindly follow like the good little sheep they are. Easily frightened and easily served up for the purposes of evil leaders. CANNON FODDER.

So when you going to sign up hypocrite? The military is having a lot of trouble signing people up. Or are you the typical rightwing nutcase who is really a coward at heart?

I think you and your type are called

CHICKENHAWKS. Talk a big fight but piss themselves when the time comes to put up or shut up.

Get a grip and go back to your mommy .

foot_soldier
12-24-2004, 12:22 PM
LeoO wrote:
.....And now Arianna weeps crocodile tears over solider suicides? When she is the one working hard night and day to tell our brave warriors fighting for good that they are chumps working for fools or wicked men?.....
She doesn't have to "work hard day and night" to tune our "brave warriors" in to the fact that they're being callously used in this immoral and illegal invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation. A rapidly-growing number of them are figuring that out for themselves and they and their families are beginning to speak out about it.

Buzzramjet wrote:
.....At least we weren't STUPID enough to believe Bush the Lush was invading Iraq to save us. WE KNEW he was doing it because he was STUPID enough to believe those morons from Halliburton and other oil and energy companies that said taking Iraq would be a cakewalk and they would be given the contracts to run the biggest oil fields in the world.
I agree. But I wouldn't attribute Bush's actions to "stupidity." I think Bush knows exactly what he's doing. This "liberation scam" is all about securing oil-production infrastructure and establishing a permanent American presence in the Middle East. (In that regard let's not forget about the 14 permanent American bases under construction or renovation within Iraqi borders as we speak.)

Buzzramjet
12-24-2004, 06:00 PM
Foot Soldier.

I was a bit angry when responding to that nutcase, however my meaning was that Bush KNEW they were going to get the oil fields for their big buddies in the oil and energy companies. WHAT he was stupid about was believing it would be a cake walk and that the people who where talking him into were stupid enough to believe morons like Chalibi and others who obviously had their own agenda.

There is no doubt in my mind that Chalibi thought if it was indeed easy to render Iraq under U.S. control then he felt that he would become the de facto ruler of Iraq and in fact would have been no different than Saddam just perhaps not quite so vicious but nonetheless he would have ruled with an iron fist and become as LBJ so eloguently put it:

HE MIGHT BE AN S.O.B., BUT HE'S OUR OUR S.O.B.

The Iraqi threat assessments of Iraq were very confident of rolling over Iraqi troops and those pushing the war, refused to allow that faction within the White House and other agencies to have their say and in fact sidelined them constantly, thus allowing the pro war faction without any regard to the peace and huge to have their way.

The pro war faction realized that if Bush or anyone could stave off the war for another six months by continuing to allow the UN inspectors while at the same time building up the military forces in the region, the world would see that Saddam had indeed gotten rid of the WMD and was just blustering in order to protect himself from Iran and any other possible hostile actions from other mid East factions.

THIS was proven to be true in the 9/11 report.

You are totally right about the true reason for the war. OIL

Jitoen Le Tur
12-25-2004, 06:42 PM
The loyal opposition needs to finally start opposing this administration’s most catastrophic failure — and make it clear that standing up to its delusions and incompetence is standing up for the truth.

That would be nice, but it seems the Democrats are content to watch the country wither away as they hide under their veil of silence.

Buzzramjet
12-30-2004, 03:54 PM
You are so totally right about the wimpy democrats lately.

They are TERRIFIED of losing their cushy little jobs where work takes a back seat to fund raising and all those groovy and cool dinners and parties they spend all their time at instead of standing up for the people who oppose W.

The Christian Taliban is taking over slowly but surely.

The Democrats are talking about changing their views on abortion to appear more VOTE FRIENDLY. I mean WTF?

AND with the environment being destroyed every day for the profits of corporations and the hopeful RAPTURE happening any time now, IT MIGHT BE SMART TO ACTUALLY START LOOKING FOR A THIRD PARTY TO SUPPORT.

Fucking cowardly democrats. To bad they are the only opposition party in town.